Wine May Help Keep the Liver Healthy

[pigeonca]

This was in the New York Times today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/10/health/research/10regi.html?_r=1&nl=8hlth&emc=hltha5&oref=slogin

[jmjm530]

I believe papers were presented earlier this year at AASLD that showed an inverse relationship between a single glass of wine a day and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD). Of course, this doesn't mean that more than one glass will confer additional benefits and quite possibly the reverse holds true. Further, the study may have been conducted on healthy livers which many of us simply do not have. That said, my liver specialist suggested I drink a glass of red wine with dinner to help enhance my lipid profile, i.e. to raise the "good" HDL cholesterol. Can't honestly say I gave him an argument here :) Drinking with the HCV liver can be a controversial topic. A good place to start is with the advice of a good liver specialist who is familiar with your individual stats, including any previous substance abuse issues.

-- Jim

[desrt]

“While one glass a day seems helpful, these data do not support the use of larger amounts of alcohol,” said Dr. Jeffrey B. Schwimmer, the senior author and an associate professor of gastroenterology at the University of California, San Diego.

"The authors, writing in the June issue of Hepatology, suggest that wine’s nonalcoholic components may be responsible for the findings."


How many people do you think will use this article to rationalize drinking however much they want?

[Magnum]

No alcohol while you have Hepatitis C.

EVERY Hepatologist and EVERY Gastroenterologist will tell you that... Amazing that people still think it's okay...

Magnum

[pigeonca]

Definitely true: no wine WHILE you have hepatitis c, but for those of us who are SVR, have little or no fibrosis and can keep it to one glass, a nice vintage pinot noir might just be the ticket to good health.

[AmeliaFufu]

I just can't believe that someone is on this site that wants to be an advocate of drinking anything that has alcohol in it.  It gives those that have definantly been advised NO liquor to justify behavior that is so wrong for a person dealing with HCV.  If you were so lucky as to be SVR why tempt the faits.  If you are looking for others to validate drinking wine while dealing with HCV, I think you will be hard pressed on this site to find what you are looking for.  So I'm with Magnum and desrt.  If your point was to get people going well you have succeeded.
AmeliaFufu

[copyman]

you can get the same benefits if not more by taking revesterol supplements. one pill is like several glasses of wine without the alcohol

[Effiedanna]

My Hepetologist said to me you can not have any alcohol not even in mouthwash so check everything. A damaged liver can not metobolize alcohol in any form, so plz do not believe everything you hear and listen to your liver specialist they know.

[pigeonca]

Certainly you should listen to your doctors, and certainly you should not drink anything while you still have hcv or are treating.  But after SVR, IF your doctor says it's okay and IF you only have stage one or stage two fibrosis, a single glass of wine here and there will not do any harm.  This does not apply, of course, for anybody who cannot limit it to one drink.

Because of my family's history of heart disease, my doctor actually wants me to drink a glass of wine most days.  If you look at the new Dr. Dietrich moderated site, you will see that after SVR a non-cirrhotic liver will regenerate itself.  
Take a look at this:
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/534318

[Marcia2202]

I have been biting my fingers not to join this discussion, as I am getting tired of the same alcohol discussions we are having over and over. I will not add my long personal views on drinking alcohol, as I don't drink it, haven't in years and won't ever again.  

First, please excuse me, if you feel that I am attacking you. I am not, I just want to make a point!

I just don't hink it is very nice, that you are trying to justify your views referring to FLGuy's question to Dr. Dieterich, as it has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the alcohol subject. It has no correlation at all and is misleading, as it looks as if Dr. Dieterich was supporting your point of view. Do not assume that because he answers that under certain circumstances 'the liver should return to normal', he automatically means, that it is okay to drink a few glasses of wine. That is not what he said.

So I have permitted myself to post the question and answer right here, so people don't get mislead by your comment.

Recovery of Fibrosis and Cirrhosis
by FlGuy, Jun 02, 2008 09:36AM
Welcome.  I have read other forums in which you have participated and appreciate your views. For a person who has achieved svr what should be the expectation for the reversal/repair of firbrosis and/or cirrhosis?  Secondly, if it's medically necessary to evaluate such recovery/repair; how, when and should it be it be done?  Thanks.
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Doctor's Answer

by Douglas Dieterich, MD, Jun 05, 2008 04:30AM
To: FiGuy
If you had mild (Childs A )cirrhosis or anything less in fibrosis score, after SVR it should all go away. Your liver should return to normal. However in people with established cirrhosis, there may be a continuing risk of liver cancer so screening once or twice per year may be in order. Follow up biopsy is not really indicated. Good luck!
And Congrats on your cure!
DTD

All the best, Marcia

[merryBe]

remember that old commercial  where they are frying some eggs..and they say, here is your brain, then throw the eggs in the pan and watch them sizzle.....and here is your brain on drugs.

well translate that to the liver...here's your liver...and here's your HCV liver fried in a nice chianti.....

[pigeonca]

I'm not trying to "justify" anything.  This is just plain common sense.  People here on this group get so emotional about alcohol, and I understand that.  But booze is part of life.  Every culture in history has fermented something.  It is dangerous but it is
also medicinal.  It has its place.  Dr. Dietrich does not connect the dots, but I am going to try.  

Logically, if a person has a normal liver, and a normal liver can metabolize a certain small amount of alcohol (it's something like a glass a day for women, two glasses for men), than once you've attained SVR and waited for whatever amount of time is required for your liver to recover from the hcv, then a drink or two a day - depending on your gender - might be good for you.  This is merely logical.  And don't even think about drinking until you discuss it with your doctor.  (Of course, anybody with a problem with booze shouldn't even go here.)

I hope nobody uses this info to justify drinking to excess.  That is always a no-no, for anybody's liver.

[jmjm530]

Actually Dr. Dieterich did "connect the dots" here, at least in terms of SVRs...
"....What is usually considered safe is 1-2 glasses...of wine per day:

http://www.thebody.com/Forums/AIDS/Hepatitis/Archive/HepCtreat/Q154253.html

[Survivin52]

I have been treated by some of the best Gastroenterologist & Hepatoligist in the country from the University of Washington. Although there are benefits of drinking some red wine for the healthy liver and heart disease, but they all agree the damage caused to the liver from alcohol far out weighs any benefits with someone who has Hepatitis.

[desrt]

I always find it interesting that SVRs who have chosen to resume drinking for the sake of their 'heart'  or their 'cholesterol' come back and post these studies on a hepatitis forum where people are fighting (and in many cases dying from) liver disease. Is getting approval from some alcoholic cirrhotic who just scraped through one more day sober that important? If you want to drink, drink - and have one for me. I certainly don't begrudge it to you - your life, your choice.

[scratchinghead]

Drink all the booze you want. This list is too crowded.

[Mr Liver]

Heavy alcohol consumption is quite prevalent in the histories of many HCV patients. This probably accounts for some of the hysteria concerning the topic. It also plays a major role in gastros and hepatologists making blanket statements to their patients concerning the avoidance of alcohol. As a doctor it sure is easier for you to just tell all 200 of your liver disease patients to avoid it altogether, as opposed to having to evaluate each and every patient in order to conclude whether alcohol use would pose a risk to any one particular patient or not.  

For those with no past drinking problems and light to moderate liver damage, having a glass of wine or a beer every so often is not going to hurt your liver.  Smoking cigs will do much more harm to your liver (and just about every major organ) than a healthy glass of wine. For city dwellers the pollution present in the atmosphere is many more times harmful than a daily glass of wine ever could be. In fact, the wine would be helpful for you folks. For you women (and some men) , breathing in nail polish remover or hair spray makes a glass of wine benign in comparison. Anyone here use bug spray or mosquito repellents ? Again much more potential to do harm than an occasional beer. As you can see this whole concept can be taken to extremes---and it has in here when it comes to the topic of alcohol consumption.


Alcohol does not increase vl in vivo. (no in vitro studies please, as they aren't accurate) It does not cause the HCV to inflict more damage on the liver. Damage as a result of alcohol abuse in someone with HCV results in an accumulative effect of damage, not the result of synergy between HCV and alcohol. And I stress abuse.

This whole notion that the liver is incapable of functioning normally when you have HCV is fallacy. The use of alcohol in those with mild to moderate liver disease won't result in permanent damage to their livers--- by definition just the abuse of alcohol causes damage. There is no evidence that an occasional glass of wine in this setting would cause irreversible harm. None. Until someone can produce this proof, I will stay with the current science on the matter.

Alcohol does reduce the effect of IFN so no drinking on tx of course, regardless of the extent of liver damage. Post SVR can certainly drink if they choose to. Again, no evidence exists that shows irreversible harm when alcohol was used on a limited basis in this population.

I can't remember who posted this about their doctor not wanting them to use mouthwash with alcohol in it while on tx, but if that is all there is to this story, then that doc is taking it way over the top unless he thinks they are drinking the stuff instead of gargling with it.

Considering all of the 'proof' that doesn't exist between occasional alcohol use and irreversible liver harm I don't think anyone can tell someone that it is wrong to drink when it is done responsibly, as long as they fit the profile of someone with mild to moderate damage.
Mr Liver

[orleans]

yawn

[R Glass]

  As Mr. Liver raps himself with Raw Meat and runs through the Lion’s Den.

I don't even bother with alcohol threads. People are going to believe what they want to believe anyway. No amount of studies (new or old) are going to change it.
  

[Trish77]

"As Mr. Liver raps himself with Raw Meat and runs through the Lion’s Den."

This has nothing to do with any viewpoint on this one way or the other....just reading that line made me *laugh* out loud .... I'm sure I've heard that before but god, that's funny.

Timely too.  I have a Lion's Den to go through at work today .. coffee's on and time to wrap the meat around me....lol  :)  Now THERE is the attitude I want today!  

Okay...back to our regular programming......

[Marcia2202]

LOL .... I just got back from my long awaited hepatologist appointment, opened up my laptop and saw that line. I had exactly the same reaction to that! Am still giggling!

I'm not going to comment on the alcohol issue again.... I'll be biting my fingers while I join orleans in YAWNING. If that is possible???

[meki]

If you have or have ever had an issue with alcohol:

Don't drink

If you have damage to your liver:

Don't drink


If you have HCV and are on TX:

Don't drink

If you have never had a problem with alcohol - and your liver is in good condition:

Use your judgement and speak with your doctor prior to consuming any and all forms of alcohol.

If you have a problem with alcohol - now or in the past:

Remember that not everyone has those problems. Some people can actually stop drinking after one or two glasses of wine or a mixed drink - and some people RARELY drink at all.  A lot of folks who are or have been through difficulties with alcohol - or suffer from alcoholism forget that others are not like them - so it is difficult to remain calm when the subject of alcohol is brought up.

If you have never had a problem with alcohol:

Remember that some people cannot stop drinking once they start. For them, alcohol is the root of all evil - and there is a constant craving that burns and actually can cause mental anguish in some. It is a very horrible disease and the only way some people can deal with it is to abstain. Part of choosing to abstain it to not be around others who partake. It is very difficult for those who have had alcohol or drug issues to understand that others do not share those same problems --- and difficult for them to imagine that it is OK for some people.

If you have any reservations about alcohol:

Then don't consume it.

If you have a problem with alcohol:

Please go get some help - there are tons of support forums and even people here who can point you in the right direction to get you started.

For everyone:

Just like HCV and TX... Not everyone reacts the same to alcohol. Some folks CAN drink a little here and there with minimal or no damage and there are those out there who do not have addictions to alcohol. But I cannot determine who those people are...  So in a forum --- It is up to each of us to provide good support to those who need it.

I --- me --- I'm a VERY occasional social drinker. (I don't particularly care for alcohol - I have that super duper hangover gene that really messes up my next couple of days if I drink more than 2 glasses of wine...  or have more than 2 mixed drinks... Just don't like feeling like that... besides most alcohol tastes icky)

I cannot imagine what life would be like if I had an addiction to anything besides my super awesome sexy hunk.

Y'all - Alcohol --- and HCV is not really a smart mix - at least not in large amounts.

And it's a very touchy topic here.

So - please try not to be judgemental either way it goes... People need opinions and direction - but definetely not personal cut downs or attacks.

Much love to all of youse guys - Yanno? You're all very special people.

Meki

[mr.lucky66]

Why is it so important for some people to have a glass or 2 of wine once in a while? It souldn't matter much unless you really like it and don't want to admit it.

[R Glass]

Why is it so important for some people to have a glass or 2 of wine once in a while? It souldn't matter much unless you really like it and don't want to admit it.

I don’t quite understand your point. Never the less, it is shouldn’t not souldn't.
One or 2 glasses of wine?

[Trish77]

Hmmm... think I'm about to spray on a little bit of "perfum de viande" here and haul a$$ into that lion's den......

Why is it so important for other people to impose their own personal choices on the rest of the population?  When there is grey area and it's up to the individual, do what you decide is good for you and leave everybody else to the same freedom.

Maybe I wouldn't choose to have that hotdog and fries my co-worker had at lunch today in the cafeteria.  Gee, I wonder how big it would have gone over if I told her that people in her weight category shouldn't eat food like that.  In the strictest sense, no.  But man, I can sure understand the craving once in a blue moon and maybe that was her "blue moon".  

Yes.. I really like one or two glasses of wine once in awhile. Just like I also like eating high cocoa content chocolate once in awhile or poutine - fries, cheese curds and gravy - once in awhile.  If I had really high cholesterol....an issue.  I don't.  Less of an issue unless I ate like that all the time. I don't. I have low liver damage.  To have a drink once in a blue moon ... yeah.. it's a treat.  If having an alcoholic drink isn't a treat for YOU ..the collective YOU... and I stress.. "TREAT" .. not "NECESSITY"...  .. then fine.  I just want to come look in your cupboards and see if you're eating a liver friendly diet all the time while you're sermonizing.

[R Glass]

That was impressive. You Go Girl!!!

[mr.lucky66]

thanks for the spell check, I type fast . My point is how much or how important is a glass or 2 of wine to write endless replys and point counter points. I suspect it's much more than a casual thing. It could be a love for viticulture and just to be one upmanship or something else?

[Lady Lauri]

Ya all are stressing me out with these alcohol threads and now I need a drink!

:)  :)

KIDDING. Lighten up on the alcohol threads! We will all NEVER agree on this subject but it seems those against it seem to get too wound up on it. ANY adult will read either opinion and take it as they want to, do what they want to. And the points of all the other things that cause damage are to be taken seriously. Do all wear gloves when using cleaners? Use gloves and mask when using pesticides? How about when you put advantage  on your dog...do you pet it shortly after? Do you know MANY toxins absorb thru the skin, not through eating, drinking them? I'd guess that the cr*p in most peoples diet alone is more harmful than a glass of wine. Do you buy organic food or are you eating steroids, pesticides, hormones on your veggies and in your chicken?  I find a person eating a Big Mac while screaming NO alcohol a bit hard to take.  All this is ALSO processed through your liver and most likely daily. We could go on to your shampoo’s, soaps, make up, lotions and so on also!

I am 12 weeks post  UND, it is my choice whether to live in a bubble the rest of my life or not. At 50 yrs. old I'd think I can make that decision. It's REALLY between the person and their Dr. and their health.  IF we're going to have these threads, can we NOT attack, lash at others for THEIR opinions?! If one has an addiction problem, it does not fall into another’s decision to have a couple drinks now and than because you have a problem and I feel  THAT  feeds many peoples ‘OH GOD! A glass of wine…OH NOOOOO” comments.  I have no previous issue’s with alcohol, I was an occasional drinker. I love good wine and I am not saying…when SVR….’never again’.  WITH Hep C….none was MY choice.

FYI from my Dr. (and Missy's, Susan400's and Willy's)  , holds 5 titles, head of research,........
"your liver WILL repair itself once Hep C is gone and YES you can have an occasional glass of wine in the future".  (said with minimal liver damage)

  I think rules need to be set for alcohol threads as in 1 1/2 yrs. reading here it seems they never change!
No where above did I say “YES do drink” or ‘NO, NEVER”. I wouldn’t advise either without proof, studies to back up my ‘advice’. I did voice my right to choose for myself.

Anywayyyyyy....yawn.....good luck to those with this choice! Good luck to those who will never drink again.
And no attack or offense to anyone but dam, I’m tired of biting my lip off staying out of these threads!

Best to ALL,
LL

[Magnum]

First of all You Go Girl saying should be Gone, just like those silly spinning hubcaps. Wine will pickle your liver from what I understand. Live hard, drink hard, die young is the motto for some.

I love wine. I'm Italian. In my household in Italy, my parents, as well as many children’s parents gave little kids wine post WWII. That's because the water was bad and the alcohol in the wine negated it. Half a shot or so in a glass of water did the trick. In Italy today, you can take wine to work with you for your lunch break. Naturally, if you get drunk at work, you will be fired. Wine is very good for the heart, blood and cheap talk and bragging. It also works better than candy on shy women.

However... as difficult as it was, I Cold Turkeyd nine years ago when the doctor told me no more wine, no more alcohol, and start using candy on the women again. If that doesn't work, buy them a Mercedes convertible. That should do it.

In all seriousness, if you still have some living to do, you can give up the wine, the Margaritas, Tequila shooters, Sex On The Beach and whatever drink turns you on. I did, and it was not easy. But now, I don't miss it at all, and that is VERY hard for an Italian to admit... otherwise, it's up to you...

Saluté,

Magnum

[R Glass]

Lucky-Yes, some of it is due to upmanship or “Getting in the Last Word Syndrome.” I’ve noticed a lot of people that have been dx with HCV come here looking for answers on drinking and HCV, never come back. They ask a sincere question and get 100 replies of people bickering or “Excessive Babblings”
As far as the love for viticulture, that may be making it a little more complex than it really is. Some people just enjoy the occasional glass or 2 of wine (or beer).
Most people that have been dx with HCV and gone through tx, has done the research and read all the studies, before making the decision to have a drink (at least I hope they do.)
I think it is more to do with the “something else”. The people that has done the research and choose to have an occasional drink, resent other people not respecting their decision.
A few months ago I posted “Not everybody with HCV has severe liver damage and not everyone that drinks has a drinking problem”.

Magnum-Silly Spinning Rims? I just bought a set for my Harley.

Gotta go polish my new spinning rims and have a couple glasses of MD 20/20.
Good Night

[Lady Lauri]

.....Magnum-Silly Spinning Rims? I just bought a set for my Harley.......

I want some for mine  :)

.......couple glasses of MD 20/20........
I want some...well maybe not MD tho.


LL

[Trish77]

In your situation and at your level of alcohol intake, I would quit drinking also.  I would think to have a little would be worse than having none. So good for you.  You have evaluated your own situation and made a decision that makes sense for YOU.

Some people feel this is a "one size fits all" situation and have only one answer to this question.  Some of us do NOT think this is a "one size fits all" situation and allow for different responses based on the particular fit of that person.  If this were a "one size fits all situation" and the only two choices are between drinking or not drinking, the answer would be very clear.  Do NOT drink at all.  To ME .. this is NOT a one size fits all situation and it pisses me off when some people decide that what fits for THEM, their experience, their level of liver damage, their preferences, their outlook, their attitudes, fits for everyone....just as it does when people decide that about other things in life as well.  Maybe it comes down to "black and white" people and "shades of grey" people.  I prefer to add another category that I call "kaleidoscope" in nature .. lol  :)

For someone like me, who has hardly ever drank much my entire life except for the odd indiscriminate binge here and there and long ago for the most part .. and who only drinks socially other than my occasional Irish Mist of an evening (drink a shot of Irish Mist .. then you will understand ME better...lol :) or a straight up scotch here and there (for the smell as much as the taste) or in my coffee..or a cold beer in the summer but only enough to buy maybe two six packs throughout the summer.. and keeps alcohol in the house mostly for other people and not me.... and has very low level liver damage .. the decision becomes something else entirely.  As it does for every person based on their OWN set of considerations.  For me, my diet will do me more harm than my alcohol intake.  It's my weaker area.

Since I found out I have HCV and after finally getting into a specialist last fall and swimming into the HCV pool, I hardly touch anything at all.  My wee little leftover alcohol collection sits out on a dappled wood serving tray, gathering dust for the most part.  My son asked me once "Mom, are you into self-torture or what?"  And I told him that it's there for other people, not for me....that since I know what it can do to me, it's not an issue.  As I've said to others...I love the smell of candles, but that doesn't mean I have to eat them.

So .. please... you all decide what is best for you.  Some of us have the cognizance, the intelligence and the ability to determine when that one-off drink will do us more pleasure than physical harm and are quite able to weigh out on which side it falls.  

Now....if we're going to talk salty foods...THAT'S a problem......take me to task on that.  I'll deserve it.  If I had to quit using salt, THAT is where I'd have a helluva problem and I'd have to go with no salt than with some....well, except on egg yolks maybe.

[Trish77]

....on that note, just wanted to wish *everyone* well with dealing with ALL the challenges that having Hep C throws our way .... grateful for the support found here...and how I wish I could order up a round of SVR for everyone on me.  

Take care, all.

Trish

[paulalynn1965]

I enjoy the new Tiger Quiet Storm Gatorade. It is very refreshing. Cheers!!!

[Lady Lauri]

Mixed with vodka :) ? J/K

Not being a smart a*s here, but have you read whats in that??  :)
Google what high fructose corn syrup does to you! Red #40, etc.

Think H20 is the new 'in' drink here.

LL