alcohol hepatitis

[Marie1960]

Hi,

I love to drink beer, it is my enjoyment in life. I just got diagnosed with an increase in my liver number.  I do not have any problems with any other symptoms. Now my Doctor has me going in for an hepatitis A, B, C check.  What is the chances for this since I do not have sex or do drugs. I am a 47 year old female and just began to drug beer only about 4 years ago and I do not want to stop.

Marie

[Forseegood]

my aim isn't to offend anyone, I wish you only the best, sincerely.

[Yellowfin]

I guess you have answered the first question I had when I cam on this site.  Is this site going to help.  Thank you for providing the answer

GOODBYE

[Forseegood]

it's been said over and over and over on this Hep C site and others...but one thing that anyone can say, almost to a man...if anyone over drinks alcohol with this disease, they can take it to the bank that their Hepatitis will progress much more rapidly then a patient who doesn't...there will always be exceptions to the rule...but there is so much solid evidence on paper (I knew some people like this, they weren't statistics to me) out there, that to not believe this is a personal choice only. In my view.

[alagirl]

And I am by no means someone who wants to be a spoilsport about someone else's drinking, but you seem to put a lot of emphasis on your love for drinking beer, to the exclusion of dating, and/or perhaps other social activities in which you could involve yourself.  I don't know what's going on there and I don't even know that you need to spill that here, it's just something I noticed.  

[Forseegood]

respectfully, if we only rattled on about our judgments, anecdotal experiences, etc etc...we'd get it from people who wanted serviceable data and statistics, studies etc...I think there is plenty of support on this forum too, AND scientific data and statistics.....

and everything else. My feeling is that if someone wants to drink 3 fifths of Jack Daniels per day, with hep c or not, that's perfectly fine to do so - we're all masters of our ship.

But if newcomers, or members, etc want to know what statistically will happen if you do these types of things, they deserve to get answered by getting shown some of the data out there. The conflicting studies, whatever. As far as this type of information, we can only supplement...it's the patient doctor relationship that ultimately counts. And we give info on that too..lol...

Maybe if you like just getting support, the Community Side is a good thing to check out as well...

[alagirl]

Let me see if I can answer the original questions you quoted.  First, of all, categorically, in no way shape or form can beer cause you to "get" hep a, hep b, hep c, or any of the hepatitis's for that matter.

Hepatitis a is spread typically in small outbreak form in the U.S.A. by people who go to restaurants or salad bars or the like prepared by workers who have the disease and did not wash well after using the restroom.  It is a disease that runs its course usually in two to four weeks I think.

Hep b, is, I believe, a blood borne virus, and the treatment is difficult, although I don't know much about it.

Hepatitis C, which about 99.9 percent of us on this board either have now or have had, is a blood borne virus and can be spread by many ways you wouldn't even think of, such as having your nails done.

Alcohol is very bad for people with any of these conditions as it damages the liver much more quickly and in a much worse way.  For hepatitis c, alcohol is seen as an "aphrodisiac," because it actually causes the virus to replicate when you drink.  Its not recommended therefore, that anyone with active virus drink alcohol, and after that, one would have to listen carefully to one's physician for further instructions.  Also, drinking to excess is never a good behavior, so if you can't keep from doing that, you likely have issues and need to see a professional.

[Yellowfin]

All my life I have heard various statisics.  As a City Manger for 25 years and now a real estate developer, I hear all the statistic of populatin growth, econmics, housing groqwth or declines.  Last year statistics showed that I should not invest more in real estate...I did anyway, because I felt good about it.  It is proving to be a wise decision.

Now I am here wiuth Hepatitis C (VL >19 mil)and like Ulala I have not startred treatment yet.  And, I'm not sure I will.  Already I am getting tired of hearing the statistics.  If do this you will die, if don't do this you will die.  Well, I'm going to die someday of something regardless of what the statisics say.  If statistic were all correct, I should be dead now.  I drank well over 3.6 g/d for the past 40+ years.  Actually it was probably more like 6.3 g/d.  I also took many drugs, drove too fast, jumped off cliffs, and took huge risks.

Sorry, about going off here.  But, you with more experience need to understand that we (the newly diagnosed) do not need or want to be scolded or overwhelmed with statisics. What we need is understanding, hope, and answers.  Then we (I) will make my descision based on how I feel and believe, not the statisics.  And, whatever decision I or anyone else makes, I hope they (I) feel good about it and don't get scolded.

Thanks for all your help!!

[jamimapuddle]

You wrote:

"85% of those with HepC Type 1, the most common but most difficult to treat, die before getting a liver transplant"

That is a pretty scary statistic!  Yet I've heard it told another way...that most of us die from other causes and not hep c.  Do you mean that 85% of people on the transplant list die before getting a transplant?  Can you please clarify?

Statistics are very powerful manipulation tools (which during election years we are constantly barraged by them), I do not think it is helpful to post a WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE statistic unless it's true, which I don't think it is (at least I really hope not).

[Forseegood]

I agree with the thrust of your post, to be sure...those studies I put out there were in reference to people *without* liver disease and who were at least moderately healthy...

looking at what people have to go through with this disease, and then with treatment.....

we certainly do have other priorities we should be focusing on. The only good thing about having a disease like this, is that it does make you focus on stuff I"ve pretty much taken for granted at times....like when I walk my dog at night, before I go to bed, I make a point to look at the sky, the star constellations and the moon, etc...

and notice how beautiful skies are, etc etc, how they've always been here, and will be here long, long after I'm gone, that somehow gives me comfort....and when I walk down the street, I try to make sure that I notice flowers, trees, birds, animals, everything in this life that makes it worth living, I know I sound corny, but that's how I feel....When I was really healthy, I didn't always notice these things, or take the joy that I do in them that I do now...heck, I get so much out of just hugging my dog! lol....

..But this question comes up more then Bayer has pills, who knows?

[Ulala]

Respectfully I would like to say that everyone is so involved in discussing alcohol, if you don't know what alcohol does to us with HCV then you need to grow up. We will have a dead liver if we continue to drink alcohol. 85% of those with HepC Type 1, the most common but most difficult to treat, die before getting a liver transplant. What else is there to discuss? I was just diagnosed, have not even started my treatment yet, and when I was told my enzymes were elevated, I immediately quit drinking and started a diet to avoid stressing my liver. I don't know about those who cannot or do not want to stop drinking, there is more to life than alcohol. Look around you, I am sure you have someone out there who cares, we care! Feed yourself with some good company. Read a good book, go watch a funny movie, check out the sunsets, help someone in need, we have a gorgeous world. Clean up your act, this would be a good start. Please don't take me as rude, I just want us all to live a good life :)

[jmjm530]

It should also be noted that the studies, above, specifically refer to the amount of alcohol consumed and fibrosis progression, which is understandably a great concern here. But the fact that a study may suggest 3.5 drinks per day will not increase fibrosis -- does not mean that it's necessarily healthy to drink that much.

In fact, I believe the recent wine/cardio benefit studies show that 1-2 drinks per day should be the limit, but please check that against actual study data. I believe "Forseegood" may have posted this previously.

-- Jim

[jmjm530]

I have re-written the post using "FlGuy's" conversions, above, in place of actual text. Also note that I assume these studies are at least in part based on interview data relying on the the amount of alcohol respondents admit to drinking. There are many, including my doctor, that believe that people tend to underestimate their drinking habits in these types of questionaires. If you buy into this thought, then what you have is  that those that report "heavy" drinking -- greater than 3.6 drinks per day -- may actually be drinking more than that. This is also one reason -- and no doubt there are others -- that some doctors may advise against "social or light" drinking, i.e. they don't trust the patients will actually keep to those limits.
---------------------------

"Alcohol is well recognized as a cofactor in the progression of hepatitis C, and alcohol consumption during anti-HCV therapy reduces response to treatment. While abstinence from alcohol is strongly recommended during treatment of HCV infection,22 safe levels of alcohol use outside the context of therapy are less certain. Abundant data demonstrate a correlation between heavy alcohol use (> 4.4 drinks per day for men and > 2.9 drinks per day in women) and advanced grades of fibrosis in patients with hepatitis C,46 47 but the effect of mild or moderate alcohol use has been less clear.
In a recent study assessing the effects of a range of alcohol intake levels on fibrosis in HCV-infected patients, Monto et al reported no association between light (zero to 1.45 drinks per day) ) or moderate (1.46 drinks per day to 3.6 drinks per day) alcohol use and mean fibrotic score.48 Heavy alcohol use (> 3.6 drinks per day) was associated with a significant increase in mean fibrotic score. Multivariate analysis showed that age, serum ALT level, and histologic inflammation were the only independent predictors of fibrotic score, leading the researchers to conclude that factors other than alcohol intake predominate in the development of hepatic fibrosis.
This trial, the largest and best-designed study of the question to date, puts in doubt previous "certainty" that mild to moderate alcohol use contributes to progression of noncirrhotic HCV-related liver disease. While discouragement of alcohol use is prudent for all patients with chronic HCV infection, how dogmatic clinicians should be in discouraging mild to moderate alcohol consumption outside the context of therapy is open to debate."
http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/online/monograph/hepc/biopsy.htm#cofact

(46) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9731576?dopt=Abstract
(47) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9620350?dopt=Abstract
(48) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14999703?dopt=Abstract

http://www.natap.org/2004/HCV/040104_02.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_consumption_and_health

[FlGuy]

In the interest of clarity, the post above refers to 'g/d' which is grams per day.  As a reference point here is what 'grams' may relate to in more understandable terms.  It comes from the CDC web site.

    A standard drink is equal to 13.7 grams of pure alcohol or

        * 12-ounces of beer.
        * 8-ounces of malt liquor.
        * 5-ounces of wine.
        * 1.5-ounces or a “shot” of 80-proof distilled spirits or liquor (gin, rum, vodka, whiskey, etc).

[jmjm530]

"Alcohol is well recognized as a cofactor in the progression of hepatitis C, and alcohol consumption during anti-HCV therapy reduces response to treatment. While abstinence from alcohol is strongly recommended during treatment of HCV infection,22 safe levels of alcohol use outside the context of therapy are less certain. Abundant data demonstrate a correlation between heavy alcohol use (>60 g/d in men and >40 g/d in women) and advanced grades of fibrosis in patients with hepatitis C,46 47 but the effect of mild or moderate alcohol use has been less clear.
In a recent study assessing the effects of a range of alcohol intake levels on fibrosis in HCV-infected patients, Monto et al reported no association between light (0 to 20 g/d) or moderate (20.1 to 50 g/d) alcohol use and mean fibrotic score.48 Heavy alcohol use (>50 g/d) was associated with a significant increase in mean fibrotic score. Multivariate analysis showed that age, serum ALT level, and histologic inflammation were the only independent predictors of fibrotic score, leading the researchers to conclude that factors other than alcohol intake predominate in the development of hepatic fibrosis.
This trial, the largest and best-designed study of the question to date, puts in doubt previous "certainty" that mild to moderate alcohol use contributes to progression of noncirrhotic HCV-related liver disease. While discouragement of alcohol use is prudent for all patients with chronic HCV infection, how dogmatic clinicians should be in discouraging mild to moderate alcohol consumption outside the context of therapy is open to debate."
http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/online/monograph/hepc/biopsy.htm#cofact

(46) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9731576?dopt=Abstract
(47) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9620350?dopt=Abstract
(48) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14999703?dopt=Abstract

http://www.natap.org/2004/HCV/040104_02.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_consumption_and_health

[Forseegood]

when I did a search on this, I saw some conflicting studies, as per usual. The one youre talking about was done in Italy, where people eat plenty of food with their drinks, and space them out throughout the day....Normally, Europeans are big walkers too, they aren't sedentary.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16173568/

Here is another study advocating the one to two a day as being moderate, any more your risk of stroke goes up.

http://www.muschealth.com/healthyaging/drinkstroke.htm

Now I've seen this put out by the American Heart ***.

In a 1996 American Heart Association scientific statement, Thomas A. Pearson, MD, Ph. D noted, "A large number of observational studies have consistently demonstrated a U-shaped relation between alcohol consumption and total mortality. This relation appears to hold in men and women who are middle aged or older. The lowest mortality occurs in those who consume one or two drinks per day. In teetotalers or occasional drinkers, the rates are higher than in those consuming one or two drinks per day. In persons who consume three or more drinks per day, total mortality climbs rapidly with increasing numbers of drinks per day."

There was some controversy over the fact that this study found  that teetotalers actually have a *higher* death risk then one to two a day drinkers - These analysts found that in interviewing some participants of this AHA study, they found that the reason why many of these teetotalers didn't drink, is because they had a pre-existing health condition, which might call into question the finding that teetotaler's have a higher death rate. I'd have to go find that and I'm tired, lol....studies interest me for some reason.

Studies conflict, and some of them are better then others....for my money, in terms of my own health, I'll mostly try to err on the side of caution, this is the only body I've got. Respectfully....

this is from the Harvard School of Public Health, which factored in many, many  studies and I think they are less sensational then some studies out there, that make better copy but don't factor in as many studies...

Balancing Act

Given the complexity of alcohol's effects on the body and the complexity of the people who drink it, blanket recommendations about alcohol are out of the question. Because each of us has unique personal and family histories, alcohol offers each person a different spectrum of benefits and risks. Whether or not to drink alcohol, especially for "medicinal purposes," requires careful balancing of these benefits and risks. Your health-care provider should be able to help you do this.

Your overall health and risks for alcohol-associated conditions should factor into the equation. If you are thin, physically active, don't smoke, eat a healthy diet, and have no family history of heart disease, drinking alcohol won't add much to decreasing your risk of CVD.

If you don't drink, there's no need to start. You can get similar benefits with exercise (beginning to exercise if you don't already or boosting the intensity and duration of your activity) or healthier eating. If you are a man with no history of alcoholism who is at moderate to high risk for heart disease, a daily alcoholic drink could reduce that risk. Moderate drinking might be especially beneficial if you have low HDL that just won't budge upward with diet and exercise. If you are a woman with no history of alcoholism who is at moderate to high risk for heart disease, the possible benefits of a daily drink must be balanced against the small increase in risk of breast cancer.

If you already drink alcohol or plan to begin, keep it moderate - no more than two drinks a day for men or one drink a day for women. And make sure you get plenty of folic acid, at least 600 micrograms a day.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/alcohol.html

[cruelworld]

i think yall are right, the studies said more like 3 drinks a day for women and 5 a day for
men. sorry about that mistake.
the info i relate is not my opinion though, its the summaries from many  studies of liver damage due to drinking.  google it yourself, men supposedly can have 60 grams a day of alcohol  (5 drinks) for decades and not realistically get liver damage. i beleive it, because i know of so many people who drank 12 to 24 drinks a day for their whole lives and live to ripe old ages. i dont promote this personally.

[Forseegood]

you say drinking beer is the "enjoyment" of your life...I might be misunderstanding you, and you meant "one" of the enjoyments of your life...fortunately, there are so many things in life to enjoy that don't include drinking...maybe it's time to find out what they are for you, which is an excellent way to leave it off, just get interested in many other things...sorry if I am misunderstanding you.

[Forseegood]

I know I probably sound nitpicky, and I probably am, but I disagree with what you said about drinking "lots of coffee"...I have heard of 2 cups a day minimum...and that is purportedly good for the liver, in recent studies. Coffee has some beneficial properties, to be sure....But."lots of it" covers a lot of territory, 6 - 8 cups a day, whatever...coffee in that amount is delivering a lot of caffeine to the system, which can be hard on the kidneys, adrenals, etc. etc ....and when you have liver disease, that is stressing the kidneys on it's own...respectfully....

[Forseegood]

Hi, (didn't read this whole thread so maybe you clarified yourself already) but alcohol does INDEED cause hepatitis, alcoholic hepatitis to be sure. My younger sister nearly died from alcoholic hepatitis, and she has never had viral hepatitis. Unfortunately, alcoholic hepatitis takes out vast numbers of people throughout the world. Dying from hepatitis is not a good way to go either, not by a long shot.

All: I think Jim said it best when he mentioned something along the lines that if you have Hep C, you pretty much have to make your priorities, and drinking like you used to is certainly not one of them. This disease is serious, this disease is not playing, better not play with it.

I applaud you for leaving it off. Maybe think that the liver is getting very stressed just dealing with the onslaught of the virus itself, we need to do all we can to HELP the liver, not stress it further.

[Forseegood]

5 beers a day? that's excessive...I'd be on my a$$ with 5 beers a day...sure it's got a lot of water in it, but it's also got a shot of alcohol...5 beers a day is not moderate, even for Europeans, I used to live there. I have read (and this is for normies WITHOUT sick livers) that moderate drinking should consist of 2 drinks per day for men (spaced out preferably) and one for women...women don't metabolize alcohol as well as men.
Also beer is very, very fattening. 5 beers a day and that's a WHOLE LOTTA CARBS/CALORIES, beyond the damage it could be doing to the liver....I can't imagine keeping a good weight with that much beer, unless youre a marathon runner or something. Respectfully....

[jamimapuddle]

    REALLY?! For a women? I have never heard of such a liberal rule.  I've heard that more than four drinks is considered a binge, yadda, yadda.  When I used to drink beer, five was not even in the range, I would have a moderate day if I only drank 12 cans of beer during the course of the day.
    Now they are saying women should keep it at one drink a day or they significantly increase their breast cancer risk.
    

[cruelworld]

the are thousands of studies regarding alcoholic hepatitis that verifies the 5 drink rule.
just google it. the standard drink is figured at 13.7 grams pure alcohol.  (you will need this fact to understand the studies)

of course i dont want anyone to drink on a sick liver. that why i suggested
the tests first. the point i was making is that the liver is a robust organ and can stand
some degree of lifelong insult. once disease or excessive drinking  factors in, then you will most likely have problems and must remove all the insults as much as possible.

[H20Lover]

I agree with the gang....follow up and make sure you get tested for all 3 ABC.

Alcohol will not cause VIRAL hep, but can cause Alcoholic Hep. and yes if that is the problem, abastaining should improve the inflammation.  

I too was told I had elevated enzymes.  I was hoping it was too much wine, for I could control that.  The doc said no way based on the ALT/AST ratio and other markers.  I said are you sure?  I had no risks for Hepatitis other then extensive dental work 2 1/2 years ago.  I have had my enzymes checked several times over the last 10 years and have donated blood and never had anyone say boo about it.    I did have a blood transfusion in 1986, but blood negative for blood doner screening in late 90's.  I gave 3 or 4 times while my daughter was active in a blood drive for her high school.  Naturally I was ready to blame the Merlot!  

If you find out Hep C is the culprit, believe me, beer will no longer matter and needs to be avoided.  I do not have a dependency problem and had no problem giving it up but I  am looking forward to enjoying wine again once I have SVR.  Hopefully you don't have 2 seperate issues here.  If you do, then you must do what is best for Marie and her liver!

Good luck, let us know what you find out and we are here for ya!

Pam in Florida

[nygirl7]

PS you can get hepC from MANY places other than doing drugs.  It's not common to get it via sex. You could have gotten it at a nail salon, from a dentist, from an innoculation...many people have NO idea how they got it and have never done drugs.

This is serious so please.........start drinking chocolate milkshakes for now and get those tests.