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Avatar universal

always tired/never feel good

Hi,I last posted to this group a week ago after learning by viral load was over 7 million.  From mid january till recently (maybe 3 weeks ago) I suffered horrible insomnia and was put on ambien (very bad for liver...by my shrik who knows i have hep c).  Anyway,I was supposed to go yesterday for my immjunizaations agains hep a and hep b but my ride had an emergency and now can't get an appt. till mid June.  I am ALWAYS fatigued and am thnking this is a side effect of chronic hepatitis (i believe i've had it anywhere from 3-5 years ago), my stomach is always distended even if i eat hardly anything.  I'm "married" to the couch.  I also suffer from depression, so it's hard to tell if iti's fatigue, depresion or a combo of both.  Some days I have a good appetite, others I am not at all hungry.  I'm asking,I guess if anyone knows of anyone or maybe themselves who has/had a viral load of over 7 million (subtype 2b) that had the virus eradicated from their bodies with interferon/riblavin (SP??) therapy.  I'm rather very frightened. I feel like I'm gonna die from this virus.  Is there anything I can add t my diet; more vitamin c, anything that would help make me feel better/have some energy?  My answer in times like these used to be stret drugs but they are  completely out of the question and I highly doubt anhyone here would recommend them (ha ha). Maybe I'm looking  for reassurance that there's a chance for me.  I'm terrified of being ill from the treatment, when i read different posts about (God bless them) people for whom treatment didnl't work I freak out.  Any advice would be so appreciated.  I hope I'mi in the right community.  Also, if anyone has some ideas as to "how to keep my head up" while I'm waiting for an appt w/a specialist, which will probably take months.  There seem to be no hepatologists in my area, who would be the best specialist to see?  A gastroenterolitist (I KNOW i spelled that wront), an Internal Medicine M.D. who treats hep c, a hemotologist?  Again, any answers would be so apprciated. I hope everyone enjoys the holiday weekend.  i was invited to  a picnic and alll happy about it but the guy throwing the picnic fell off a ladder and broke his hand; resulting in the cancellation of the picnic.  So i'll be sitting here, reading or on the internet cause it's too hot to even go for a walk in N.E. PA.  
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87972 tn?1322661239
Hi Tawee,

A liver biopsy is considered the gold standard for determining the amount of fibrosis one has developed over the course of their disease; and can provide information that might drive treatment decisions.

However, if you’re adamant about not undergoing therapy (“…I have not had treatment nor would i take it if offered…”), I can’t see any value in the procedure. It’s an invasive process, and while the risk of complications is low, it’s not generally performed to satisfy personal curiosity.

For instance, if the pathology suggested you had stage 3-4 fibrosis, what would the outcome be; would you still refuse to undergo therapy? I don’t see any advantage to biopsy for someone in your position.

There are non-invasive surrogate tests available that attempt to approximate fibrosis via biochemical markers such as Fibrosure and Fibrospect; but the same principal applies; why expend resources to no apparent end?

It's nice to know you manage to get out and exercise; that probably feels good, eh?

Good luck; I hope things work out for you—

Bill
Helpful - 0
1225178 tn?1318980604
You have posted at the  bottom of an old thread so you may not get any answers besides mine. I almost quit reading before I got to the bottom because I don't feel the need to answer questions from May after they have been answered 10 times... which will be the case for a lot of people. You'll get a lot more answers if you scroll to the top and click on"post a question" and then write your question.

Anyhow, I too had the insomnia for years. Now I know it is a symptom of HCV, I think I was infected in the early 80s, but didn't get diagnosed until this past January. I got my biopsy to see how much damage my liver had... turned out stage 2 grade 2... about in the middle of fibrosis and inflammation. Since you are determined to not do the treatment the biopsy is just a choice... do you want to know how bad it is or not? I hate to tell you, but there aren't any herbs that can kill this virus. They may help your liver not get so damaged, but the virus will still be there, eating away at it. One last thought, you won't feel the damage being done to your liver until it is so damaged that there is not turning back. The liver doesn't have sensory nerves.
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1369963 tn?1278660312
I really don't know when i contracted hep c, but i believe it has been 10 or even 20 years. I have not had treatment nor would i take it if offered. I'm from the states but now live in thailand so would have to pay out of pocket. What i need to know is should i have a biopsy just to see how my liver is doing and if any damage, and also should i test viral load or get genotype even though i am not thinking of having the tx. I take a special herb for a chinese herbal dr. from china and an herb to increase circulation, it has worked so far, i eat very little meat and am not over weight. Im like a lot of you i don't know if the hep c is causing the depression or wheather i had the depression anyway, i take paxil , wellbutrin and trazadone to sleep, i absolutly hate to go to bed because i know im not going to sleep, now i have added either valium or xanax just a very sm. amt to get to sleep period. I do take care of 6 dogs everyday and clean a big house and manage to walk with wt's on my ankles almost everyday, but i really have to make myself do it and try to prop up with coffee.          thank you
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Avatar universal
THanks  Bill, for the reassurance.  That's what the nurse counselor told me but this website was something like the American Liver Association, sounded legit but it was last updated in either 2002 or 2004; can't remember which.  Thanks for clarifying that for me.  It would scare me to death to have to get a shot everyday.  I'm terrified of needles and bloodwork and all that.  I was never an IV user; there were times when I wanted to 'feel" what it was like cause everyone i was associating with at that time was and they seemed to "feel" better than I would.  But my husband would have "killed" me before letting me try it.  It was when he was in jail on a cocaine charge that I asked someone to do it for me.  I don'lt know if I shared this, if I did I apologize for repeating myself.  But that's all it took was that one time and it sure wasn'lt worth what we're all dealing with.  It was one of those "life defining" moments, another that i'll always regret but God has his reasons.  And I think He's trying to teach me to appreciate life and health; things that my depression made me take for granted.  You're such a nice man, thank you again.  You have a good day also.  Cindy
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Avatar universal
Thank you so mjuch for sharing your experiences with me.  You are a weath of information and I so appreciate you providing it to me.  I hope Bill 1954 is reading this also cause I want to thank him for his post also.  My husband did get me some ibuprophen yesterday.  I still have quite a bit of these icky Norco (like vicodin but with out as much tylenol;; still contains 325 mg per pill and it's tearing me up inside).  The ibuprohen is just as effective.  I'm not feeling the best today but it's  so good to know that you were able to work.  This nurse counselor told me Ii'd have to have a "caretaker", that it would be worse than the worst flu I ever had; basically scared the "you know what" out of me.  You guys here are so great.  Thanks again.  "talk" to you again soon,.   Have a nice day.  Cindy
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897070 tn?1320652629
Yes I do know where youre coming from Cindy,have had a 'difficult' life myself as have many others here..............
Godbless (us all)
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87972 tn?1322661239
Cindy, interferon is now injected once weekly. There are exceptions to that, but it won't apply to you. Any information to the contrary is old... the newer formulations require weekly injections,

Bill
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Avatar universal
Hi cindy-
You take the injection once a week. It is a very small needle and not a big deal to inject nor painful. The side effects are from minimal to a lot depending on the person.

My wife was also taking seroquel for sleep and anxiety at night before bed. She switched to trazadone which has been much better for her. I am definitely not a dr and I am not advising you medically or telling you not to take your meds, I just thought my wife's experience might help you. It might be worth discussing with your doc.

If you can take even a short walk and get outside I would be it would lift your spirits. Sometimes you have to force yourself, but as you start walking you start thinking about other things besides your problems.
Take Care
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Avatar universal
THanks for the post.  you know exactly where i'm coming from.  I used to "use" to deal with the depression and for that while it would go away.  That's what got me in this position.  Now it's out of the question, I'm out of that circle and iti's just a temporary fix,  I have to deal with life on life's terms....like it or not.  I remember I attended my first NA meeting at age 30 thinking, I'm too old to be having problems  like this.  Now i'll be 50 soon and am facing treatment.  I haven't lead a charmed life by any means.  But this foruom is great, I forgot to thank dave for the link, i tried to get to it but my brand new computer is giving me trouble today.  I will keep trying cause I only want the best care; I want to find some happiness in this life before iti's over.  God bless  cindy
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Avatar universal
Hi Dave, thanks for writing back.  I'm off the Narco right now, only take it when i have really bad pain and boy do i pay for it, nausea, pain in my liver, and yes it (even have of a 5 mg pill,makes me really tired.  The only two meds I "can't live without" are the seroquel (i only take it for sleep; i have a terrible time w/insomnia and like your wife have been on it 3 yrs now.  I gained 62 llbs. I was 90lbs (you can guess why) and am now a whopping 152.  I know others on seroquel who have lost lots of weight when they stopped taking it and it weren't for the sleeplessness (ambien alone won't work), it'd be out of my life.  I'd like to lose weight.  And the xanax, which is like taking tic tacs after so many years on them for panic disorder.  Lemme ask you a quick question; do those with hep c have to take the interferon injection everyday or every week?  Thanks again, enjoy the holiday weekend.  Cindy
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148588 tn?1465778809
Maybe you could talk to the shrink about an alternative to or weaning off the Seroquel. That's something the two of you will have to decide - whether the physical side effects are a good trade off for the problem it was Rxd for.
The reason I was given for not using general anesthesia for biopsy is that the person performing the procedure tells you to hold your breath so that you're absolutely still for the 2 seconds it takes to perform the procedure. It really is a fairly simple, straightforward thing. The only thing I would suggest would be to get an ultrasound guided procedure. That way it's so easy even a good sonogram tech can do it. Sometimes a good tech with all their attention on you can be even better than some rushed MD who has 50 other patients on their mind.
If the Tylenol is causing you problems, there are other pain meds that are compounded with NSAIDs instead of acetimenophen. You seem to have a good grasp on the difference between real pain and drug seeking behaviour, so that's something for you and your doc to discuss.
Yeah, for some of us tx was very much like having the flu - but not as bad as what your nurse counselor describes. It really is 'different for everyone' (a phrase you'll soon get used to hearing on these sites). I never missed any work except for regularly scheduled doctor appts. and blood draws. One thing you can do is find out ahead of time which type of pegylated interferon you will be on and include that info with your questions. Pegasys and Peg-Intron seem to have a slightly different set of side effects as far as when they hit you and so forth. But again, it varies more from person to person than the slight difference between the two.
As far as tests, you'll need to get a baseline viral load test (PCR) done when you start tx. My gastro' had me do weekly CBC, CMP, and TSH for the first 6 weeks of tx and then once a month after that. Some people's docs think every other week is often enough. These tests will make sure that if you're anemic or have a low white blood cell count you can get helper drugs rather than have to suddenly dose reduce your IFN or ribavirin - something that is extremely important to avoid. They also tell how the tx is affecting your thyroid and a bunch of other stuff.
Hope that wasn't too much info - I know it's a lot to absorb. Good luck with it :-)
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Avatar universal
As Bill mentioned you have geontype 2b  which makes treatment for hep c only 24 weeks and gives you a great chance destroying the virus. Scranton has several hospitals and there is a hepatitis c coalition in scranton pa also, they may be able to lead you to better care.
Link to eastern PA hepatitis c coalition:
http://www.epahcc.org/members.html

Ambien, Narco and seroquel can all make you very tired, In combination I would suspect that they are adding enormously to your fatigue. Im not saying you shouldn't take them because we don't know that much about your emotional and physical health, but perhaps you should talk to your dr about it. Is one dr giving you all three meds?

My wife was on seroquel for several years for anxiety,  She seemed really out of it from the seroquel and gained a lot of weight as most people do who take it. She really started feeling better when they changed her meds. She also lost all the weight very quickly after stopping the seroquel.

I wish you the best. The fear and worry can be your worst enemy, worse then the disease sometimes.

Good luck with everything-Dave
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897070 tn?1320652629
You are in the right place Cindy and welcome.I am a recovering addict also,I also have my fair share of mental health difficulties so throw Hep c into the mix and you have a difficult situation.The one thing I do have however is compassion and empathy for my fellow sufferers, we are all in this together................Stay strong and good luck !
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Avatar universal
Hi!  Yeah, I think your'e on the money there, it is hard to distunguish the fatigue from depression.  Most days I feel more tired than depiressed and it might sound funny but no joke, I am "married to the couch".  i 'll sit up and read for maybe an hour and then i HAVE to  lay down.  It makes me feel a bit better.  i don't know if you read my post last week but i, yes am an addict but only used a needle ONCE and acquired the virus.  Naturally it wasn't my needle, I didn't have one but i should count my blessings a million times over cause the girl (woman) who injectted me is separated from (was, God Bless his sould,he overdosed 3 yrs ago) a man who was HIV positive.and they still slept together.  Things couldl bealot worse.  In his case, he was on lots of meds for the HIV but months pirior to his death, cause of the meds, the infection couldn't be detected in his blood.  There is hope........ Thanks for the comment.  This is such a waonderful, caring and very knowledable forum and I thank God for it and poeple like you.  "to have made one life breathe easier; that is to have succeeded", that goes for all of you who were so kind to address my concern. CIndy
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Avatar universal
Hi Diane, thanks for the comments and advice.  I will spend this time learning and taking notes.I believe also that iti's best to go to a Dr.with specific condition well informed.  Are you not feeling well every day or just the two days following treatmetn as the njurswe (the who??) nurse counselor told me.  I read in an emaikl yesterday that the hepatitis c virus isn't only one virus but iti's comprised of very many viruses: all undetectable, even under a microscope.  Interesting, huh?   I wish you the best of luck and will speak with you again.  I hope you feel well enough to enjoy the Memorial day weekend.  Oh,the counselor told me while under tx I could have no chocolate and only one cup (which I doubt I'd even want) of coffee a day and based on my weight I'd have to drink 80oz of water for the two days after the injection.  I hope thisisn't true,about the drinking part cause i don't drink alot and that seems like way too much to keep down, espcially if I'm nauseated.  God bless you and thanks again for your comment.
cindhy  p.s.  THank God they put a name on what you were suffering from for so long, God only knows what could have happened if you never found out.
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Avatar universal
I apologize for getting your coimment about having the hep for 23 yrs confused with the last woman who wrote.  You know how you can't see the whole page while posting a comment?  Sorry, I'm tired too,it's not even 4:30 in the morning.  You know,just for a sec cause i can go on and on like a blubbering idiot, i ate an orange yesterday afternoon, and it did help me feel better. And yes, I am going to get those shots for a and b innoculation; I just have to wait a bit. As I so stupidly asked Diane, what other kinds of tests did you go for, again, when you feel up to it if you want to let me know.  I have to be referred by my pr imary care md to a specialist,,maybe cause of my insurance, so I'm doubting that I'll  see one soon; you know how long apipts take and i'm going to take your much needed advice and see a ga....(stomach dr.)  I hope your day goes well and thankyou.  Sorry again for the name/content of post mix-up.  C indy
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897070 tn?1320652629
Hi Cindy I think its very hard trying to work out whether fatigue and tiredness is related to depression or having a viral infection or both. Take heart help is on its way with treatment for hep c and that may take away some of the fear and stress in your life. Treatment is doable and not always terribly difficult.
Take heart and good luck !
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Avatar universal
Hi, thanks so much for  your responses to my concerns!  I know how giood exercise is for a person and used to be an avid walker.  Until 2007 when I was put on Seroquel for bi-polar mania (alot more fun than depression, I reallhy hate to say but I had energy like a 20 year old) THe seroquel that I've been on 3 yrs now caused me to gain 62 lbs.  I feel and look like a frumy middle aged woman.  YUCK!  I have back problems and nerve damage/pinched nerves in my legs so walking was much easier (despite the physical problems)b/4 all the weight gain.  On the days i try to walk any distance, I'm in pretty bad pain.I was taking Norco for maybe 5 months but stopped it a month ago as it was making me too sick (325 mg of tylenol in each pill).  What fears me most right now is a liver biopsy.  I'm so fearful of hospitals and i'm not sure what website/forum i was in (i have to start writing them down), everyone who needed a biopsy, well their surgeons wanted to do it without being "put to sleep".  They all refused.  I don't know the reason for that.  So you had it for 23 years and didn't know.  It's funny how liver enzyme tests really don't tell the story, mine are slightly elevated.  It's alaso funny how God works.  in the summer of 2007 I was in jail for the first time in my 46 year old life (not a nice place). I stayed there for 6 months till my charges (which were bogus were dropped to one disorderly conduct charge...this was the same time I was suffering from bi polar mania,which had alot to do with my arrest), but THAT"S when and where I found out i had hep c.  And like I told Bill, after the stomach discomfort especially, i called the hep hotline and learned about the tests I would need; meaning the viral load and genotype.
When you feel  up to it, could you inform me of what other tests  you required?  Did you need a biopsy?  How are you feelilng on the tx?  As bad as they say?  I have spoken to a nurse counselor on the phone and she told me to imagine the worst flu i ever had and told me it was worse than that!  I have two friends whose doctor's recommended the interferon/riblavin treatment to and they both refused.  I have to do this and yes maybe I could make an earlier appt w/ the dr. who was treating me for pain mgmt, the only thing is that i feel REALLY guilty cause I never told him i had hepattis or I highly doubt he would have iprescribed the Norco.  Funny how addicts are their own worst enemy.  No it's not funny, I hopeyou know what I mean.  Thank you for writing me and may God watch over you during your treatment and may he also eridicate the virus from your body.  I hope to "talk" to you again.  CIndy
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Avatar universal
Hi Bill, it was nice to hear from you.  I hope you are well.  Thank you for the statistics you provided mewitih, they sound so promising.  That was my primary card m.d. that put off my appt till mid June.  Believe it or not, they knew I had hep c and told me if it gets bad they'd have to put me on an antibiotic. (What's the ANTIBIOTIC??? gimmee the antibiotic!!!)  Medical care isn't the best where I live.  I worked for a dermatiologist for 17 yrs and he was wonderful.  But I had to find out on my own, by calling a hepatitis hot line # that I needed the genotype and viral load bloodwork. My psychiatrist didn't tell me nor did my family m.d.  I'm especially dismayed with the family m.d. This "we can put you on an antbiotic" deal was over a year ago.  Maybe If i received the proper tx then, I'd be ok by now.  This sure put an end to my "I wish I were dead" attitude, that's for sure. I WANT TO LIVE!!!  I'm learning so much here on this website.  Untill next time,I thank you and wish you only the best.  God bless!   Cindy
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1225178 tn?1318980604
I had a lot of fatigue, achy joints and queasy stomach before I started tx too, though I have been infected for 23 years. It seemed like for the last couple of years everything just got worse and worse, so when I found out it was hep c and it wasn't just normal aging, I was kind of glad because that meant that I didn't have to feel like this or worse for the rest of my life.

I thought I'd go nuts waiting to start tx... so many test, and so long between appointments. Try to use the waiting time to learn as much as you can about the disease. By the time I got to my appointment where the nurse showed me how to give myself shots, I knew everything she told me about from this site. She was glad to hear it too and told me that it has been proven that the more people are educated about tx, the better chance they have of SVR.

Being married to a couch is the pits... mine has gotten much more attached since I started tx but it will be worth it once that old dragon is killed, and I start feeling like the "old me".
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148588 tn?1465778809
Hi Cindy. I wouldn't worry too much about finding a hepatologist. A good gastro' (see you can cheat on sp. ;-) ought to be able to help you, unless you have an extremely complex case - proably not with geno 2.
The first place I'd start would be finding out why your stomach is distended. I think it would be unusual for this to be related to HCV if you've only had the virus 3-5 years. You do want to find out what is going on with that, though.
If your doctor OKs it, walking is not only good for you physically, it can also help with depression, especially the type of low serotonin type related to interferon tx , if done on a regular basis. See what your doctor thinks.
I live where it's very hot, and while treating, I would walk early in the morning. If this is not an option, or if you wouldn't feel safe doing it alone, see if you can find a friend to go with you in the evening.
I've never heard of Ambien being particularly bad for the liver - doesn't mean it's *good* - just no more toxic than a lot of other stuff you're around every day. Getting some exercise can also help with the fatigue and allow you to reduce the dosage of Ambien now, so if you need to use it on tx, you can bring the dose back up.
I wish there were a magic vitamin we could take beforehand to make tx easier, but it's more like getting ready to do a race. Being genotype 2, hopefully yours will be a 24 week 'sprint' and not the 72 week 'marathon' some here have had to do.
Get those hep A and B shots and Good Luck.
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87972 tn?1322661239
Hi Cindy,

As far as treatment goes, you statistically have 80-90% chance of success with the current interferon/ribavirin therapy; and only six months should be required. It can be unpleasant at times, but the consensus seems to be that it’s worth it.

My single biggest complaint before treatment was fatigue. I was working out of state and found myself taking naps in my truck by 10:00 or 11:00 am some days; the situation eventually became untenable, and I had to do something about it. I pressed my doctor, who eventually diagnosed me with Hep C.

Yes, treatment can be challenging… but there are other meds that can help manage side effects. It sounds like you’re struggling right now, so the next logical step should be therapy to resolve this. It’s unlikely you’ll die from this disease in the near future, but you might feel better by getting rid of it, and moving on with your life.

If you’re concerned about getting the HAV/HBV vaccination, can’t you get in to see your primary care doctor before mid June? Even if you can’t, keep in mind that you might not have developed an immunity to these diseases, and avoid a situation that might expose you to them. HAV isn’t endemic to the U.S…. just be careful for now.

Either a gastroenterologist (GI doc) or a hepatologist will manage this disease. In your case, a GI doc would probably be sufficient; it doesn’t sound as if your case would be particularly changing to manage, based on the information you’ve provided so far.

I’ve dealt with varying degrees of depression for much of my adult life as well. While interferon therapy can exacerbate this condition sometimes, it didn’t’ seem to be much of an issue for me; be sure to discuss an antidepressant with the treating doctor, if you don’t already use one. It’s sometimes good to start with an AD prior to treatment, before emotional liability even begins.  

There are good folks here that’ll help you through this; and welcome again to the discussion group—

Bill
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