mhudnall-LDN 12 month labs

Hi everyone,

Just got my labs back after 12 months on LDN.

A quick re-cap; I did 12 weeks of interferon, ending unsuccessfully four years ago. I had to quit due to extreme dermatological side effects. Six months after treatment my viral load had shot up to above 7 million - it had been 3.5 million before treatment. It stayed high (greater than reportable range of 5 million) for roughly two years.

It was then, approximately 18 months before trying LDN, that I did an intense diet and exercise regimen. That got my viral load down to 1.6 million and relieved many of my symptoms.

18 months later I went to my integrative medicine doctor for the first time and he put me on LDN and supplements. Here are the pertinent labs:

SEPT 2008 (STARTING POINT WITH LDN, AFTER 18 MONTH DIET/EXERCISE PROGRAM)

VL-1.62 MILLION
AST-NA
ALT-NA

JAN 2009 (LDN-3 months)

VL-58,000
AST 54 (10-50)
ALT 68 (2-60)

MAY 2009 (LDN-4 months)

VL-219,000
AST-109 (10-50)
ALT-111 (2-60)

Sept 2009 (LDN 12 months)

VL-302,000
AST-93
ALT-154

These latest labs represent 3 months of no IVs and a pretty poor diet over the summer. Lots of greasy barbeque and no juice or conscientious effort to maintain a good diet. So these latest results reflect pretty much nothing in my program except LDN and oral supplements.

I am not happy with the recent AST/ALT scores. I do know what I need to do to fix them. If you notice from the history of my protocol above, I made great progress from a fastidious diet and exercise program. When I was the most fastidious, my enzymes were the lowest. I believe that while enzymes are transient markers, they are the lab markers most subject to movement by diet and lifestyle.

In other words, I believe that for me to see the greatest results, I need to stick with my whole program, including a high fiber, low fat, low protein, whole food diet with plenty of appropriate exercise. I think it is often easy to disregard the importance of lifestyle in the progression of hep c.

The other point I would like to make is that if you are doing conventional INF treatment, then a conventional practitioner is the place to be. However, if you are not currently in treatment, then the best road is to see an integrative medicine practitioner. Integrative medicine means a practitioner that integrates conventional medicine with holistic, natural strategies to produce the best results.

The sad facts are that conventional doctors specialize in disease treatment (with pharmaceutical drugs). They do not know, or care to know about strategies that can improve disease states or slow down disease progression by promoting health. A good example is the use of alpha lipoic acid. Despite the overwhelming evidence that ALA is one of the most hepatoprotective substances found in the body, and the overwhelming evidence that ALA can protect the liver even from acute hepatotoxicity, conventional practitioners will never prescribe it, even though it makes complete sense for hep c patients. The same is true of LDN.

Only integrative physicians will investigate and utilize the common sense strategies that are available and that may be of huge significance to hep c sufferers. For these reasons, I believe that anyone who is not currently on INF treatment should be searching out an integrative medicine physician. They will use tools like LDN, nutritional IVs, and supplements. They will advise you about diet. They will do lab tests to tailor a protocol for you. They will know which herbs interact with which drugs., In short, there is no need to guess about these things, ask an expert and get moving on a strategy. If you wait for your conventional doctor to do any of these things, you may be in for a long wait.

Others on this board have advised that I do a fibroscan or fibrosure test to measure my fibrosis staging. A biopsy four and a half years ago reported stage 3 fibrosis. I mentioned it to my doctor and he is all for it. I am trying to find a hospital that does it in either Phoenix, California or Washington State. If anyone know of a place I get these tests in any of the areas mentioned, or, actually, any place close, I would appreciate the info. I can travel to get it done, but I would prefer a one day trip.

Also, special shout out to Evangelin and Joe - I'm very pleased that the LDN seems to be helping Joe!

Best regards to everyone!

Mike H

[Rockerforlife]

Will you try the PI drugs if available/?

[mhudnall]

Hey Rock!

I don't know much about them, but my impression is that they are still combined with INF/riba. Is that true? If so, I doubt that I would tolerate them any better than I did the first time.

That being said, I am pretty happy with my protocol as it stands. I also test so much that any negative events should be pretty obvious pretty quickly.

How you you feeling?

Mike H

[tashka]

Yes, protease inhibitors are going to be used in combination with interferon/ribavirin. And they come with their own list of side effects.
I hope, there will be other treatments-safer and more effective. Maybe 20 years from now people will just laugh at what is being used today. Just like it happened with so many other serious diseases.

[Rockerforlife]

I am feeling pretty good,maybe after the trials are done,they will be able to use the PI`s with lower doses of PEG and RIBA..... BTW...i have no EOT sides yet after 9 weeks finishing.All the organic food paid off.....and healthy life style.....TAP WATER KILLS

[mhudnall]

Good to hear bro. Keep on Rockin!

Hi Tashka!

By the way, my experience with INF/riba side effects were much worse than normal treatment rashes. I had thick calluses on the soles of both feet and all the knuckles of both hands that split and bled continuously. Seeping open wounds on the base of my skull that seeped serum that would drip and trickle down the back of my neck. Rashes over 75 percent of my trunk, arms and legs. I should have quit several weeks before I did.

So another round of that stuff would undoubtedly have the same outcome. Everyone's body is different in their reactions to INF/riba, and it just is a non starter for me. Sometimes I think those who don't have extremely severe side effects think that those of us that do are just not tough enough or something. Not talkin about you Rock.

Mike H

[Rockerforlife]

sounds like you are allergic to the stuff

[Rockerforlife]

What do you think of my food intake??

1.Organic Whey (Progressive)
2.Organic Greens RX
3.Organic Coconut Oil (Alfa DME)
4.Raw Organic Eggs
4.Almonds(roasted)
5.Blueberry Juice
6.Organic Apples and Bananas
8.Ginger (root and powder)
9.Organic Rice(brown)
10.Vit- D
11.Mushroom Extract (cordyceps))
13.Blue Green Algae (stem enhance)
14,Distilled Water
15.Ground Flax Seeds
16.Red Ginseng Liquid Extract
17.Magnesium Supplement
18.Stevia
19.Blackstrap Molasses
20.Organic Extra Virgin Olive Oil
21.Tea (black,green,spearmint,licorice,chamile)
22.Raw Organic Sugar
23.Organic Apple Cidar Vineager
24.Pototoes,frozen veggie mix
25.Tumeric
26.Organic Raw Caco Chips

[mhudnall]

I like your diet. The only things I would question are the roasted almonds - raw is better. The roasting process deranges the lipids. Also the blackstrap molasses and organic sugar have a high glycemic index. That affects insulin resistance and causes lipogenesis. Honey, surprisingly has a medium glycemic index. Also stevia is a very good natural sweetener with no glycemic index.

I juice my own greens. I use romaine lettuce, green leaf lettuce, dandelion greens, cabbage, small amounts of carrots, celery and bell peppers. I occasionally do 3-5 days green juice-only diets for cleansing.

Also, unsweetened almond milk is excellent. I go very easy on oils - I like it that you grind your own flax seeds. That's the best way to avoid oxidation, and the nutty taste is superb.

I think people vastly underrate the therapeutic value of diet changes - cutting out fats and sugars and adding nutrient-dense whole foods to their diets. I know that after treatment I was in a very bad place and going in the wrong direction fast. It took time, but diet manipulation reversed the progress of the disease. As proof of that, my viral load went from above 7 million to 1.6 million. Also, my clotting problems normalized in that time frame.

I am very excited that I finally be doing all of the beneficial things at the same time in the next few months. I did the diet and exercise, then I did the LDN and supplements. Finally, thanks to the motivation that I have found in my labs, I will be doing all of it together at the same time.

My next labs will be interesting, as well as the Fibroscan/Fibrotest results.

Best regards,

Mike H

[Rockerforlife]

Check out the blue green algae(stem enhance)....it will blow you away...i also eat almonds raw tto,but i roast them for a treat....most peeps dont know most pharmas are synetisised from from foods and plants...LOL

[Rockerforlife]

According to traditional herbal textbooks, a tea made from blueberry leaves was considered helpful in diabetes, urinary tract infections, and poor appetite. The berries were a prized commodity among the indigenous peoples of North America.
Active constituents
Tannins make up as much as 10% of blueberry leaves. The astringent nature of tannins likely accounts for the usefulness of blueberry leaf in treating diarrhea. The astringent effect may also be soothing for sore throats. Some preliminary evidence indicates that anthocyanosides, the bioflavonoid complex common to bilberrry and blueberry may help people with diabetes, particularly if they have damage to the retina (retinopathy).

Nature's Answer organic alcohol extracts are produced using water, alcohol and coconut glycerin, utilizing their cold Bio-chelated proprietary extraction process, yielding a holistically balanced, standardzied extract. Liquid extracts are absorbed faster than tablets or capsules, andare more potent than tinctures. "Holistically Balanced" guarantees that the constituents of the extract are in the same synergistic ratios as in the plant


this to me looks very interesting considering the new studies out it slow down virus from replicating and its sold every where and its not illegal YET

[Rockerforlife]

A number of markers associated with diabetic wellness and liver health also showed signs of improvement (plasma enzymes ALT, AST & GGT).


http://www.healthyfellow.com/315/blueberry-leaf/

[comeagain]

On tuesday I have an appointment with a doc a schrink I´m gonna try to get a recepy
of naltrexone 50mg and then make my own LDN.
I´m pretty sure I´n gonna get it

I would like to here a little more about the psychical benefits from it what is your experince??

My plan is to take it for three months and then stop for a month just to see that nothing worse is coming out from it.

Have you heard of anybody taking it regulary for  a longer time and then stopped ? If so what happened?

ca

[Rockerforlife]

man arrested for eating blue berries...LOL

CAN YOU IMAGINE if the govt trys to ban berries?

[evangelin]

Thanks for the update Mike. The viral load looks good.
When I talked to the PA about the LDN, she brought up the fact that a lower viral load was not necessarily related to the amount of damage to the liver but she conceded that a high viral load isn't a good thing and usually correlates with being sicker. This lines up with the way it has been for Joe.  When he was diagnosed with hep c and cirrhosis, it was because he had become so sick and exhausted that he couldn't ignore it any longer and we had to go to the Doctor.  His first viral load was astronomical  (Don't remember for sure now but it was something like 20.000,000)  After the diagnosis, we went on a mostly vegetarian, low fat diet and started milk thistle and his viral load improved but only to the low millions. He started feeling somewhat better pretty quickly.
Joe's liver enzymes have never been very high but I am told that once you have cirrhosis, they stop being high because of the fact that the liver is impaired so I just look at fluctuations up and down .  His liver enzymes stayed in the normal range for most of his treatment.  I do completely agree that the diet makes a big difference.  
Joe has been cracking jokes and working in the yard.  He even read a book to our son Caleb who is 6.  Joe is normally a person who is studying something all the time.  Books are a huge part of his life.  When he is on Tx, he doesn't read at all.  I even tried reading to him and he didn't even like that.  He says he feels like he has no interest in anything when on Tx.  Sleeping is about the only thing he wanted to do. Well, he is already back to studying  and it is so good to have him be conversational again.  His personality was dead for 15 months but Joe is back!  
I totally appreciate you for persistently pointing to LDN even when most people were  disinterested. (maybe even rude)  I think it was the fact that you seemed smart and not at all flaky that got me to look further. Your facts seemed to line up well.  I don't know how this might change our situation but it is giving us some real hope that Joe might still enjoy some quality of life again.
Ev

[mhudnall]

There is definitely a benefit from LDN and mood. LDN increases the body's endorphin production and endorphins are the cell messengers that create the sensation of pleasure. They are also integral in directing the immune response.

As Evangelin pointed out with Joe, LDN enhances mood, sense of humor and personality. I noticed all of those things shortly after starting LDN. Also, it cannot be understated that anger is liver-centered. That could explain the prevalence of grouchy people on this board. I did not realize how touchy I was until it lifted after LDN and my sense of humor came back. I did not realize how much I missed my sense of humor until it came back.

Evangelin, I think the combination of LDN, fastidious diet and supplements will help bring Joe to a real positive place. I also started reading again after taking LDN. I am so pleased to to hear about Joe's progress! You have both suffered so much. We have spoken about the blessings of suffering. It brings me great joy to hear that you are being rewarded. I must tell you that for me the benefits and progress continue to grow even after twelve months. There is a long way to go for you, but persistence will continue to be rewarded.

Best regards,

Mike H

[HCA]

You were supposed to come back with a fibroscan result-instead you have come back asking MedHelp members to find a fibroscan facility for you-you couldn't make it up.!
The last sentence of your last post is' persistence will continue to be rewarded. '
How much persistence does it take to get a fibroscan in California?

[comeagain]

Thx for your answer I take it that you don´t know of anybody taking and stopping for a longer period of time!!

Since the 50 mg a day has been FDA approwed since 1984 and no spectacular sx has been reported ( exept when mixing with kodeine or opiat) I feel quite confident that 4.5mg shouldn´t be a bigger risk.

Evangeline I´m very glad to hear that things seems to ease up a bit for you and Joe.

Rooting for you all!!

God Bless!!

ca

[Marcia2202]

I really hope you will find relief in all this and that it will help slow down the progression of liver damage until they come out with drugs you can tolerate.

Who knows if in a few years from now they will stop using Riba. From what I have heard they are hoping that somewhere around 2016 they will only be using a cocktail of pills and not interferon anymore.

They must be working on an alternative for Riba too, as there is quite a noticeable percentage of people having to discontinue treatment due to Riba rashes.

[mhudnall]

What I said was that when I talked to my doctor about my labs I would ask him if he would order a fibroscan. I just talked to him; he said he would. If I want one sooner than next month when I go visit him in Washington, I need to find one in AZ or CA. So I asked if anyone knew where to get one. I am going to pay for it out-of-pocket and when I locate one I will fly to go do it, if need be.

I also said that when I got my labs I would post them. I just did.

You are very good at ordering people around. I must admit, I am not in the habit of taking orders. Certainly not by someone with your type of personality.  I also said before that anger is a liver issue. How's your liver? Do you think your anger issues are liver-related, or are they just an integral part of your being? I guess what I'm asking is, were you always like this, or did you become this way after you got ill?

My doctor has me evaluate my anger levels as part of my self-evaluation process of my liver health. He thinks in many ways it is a better barometer of liver health than many lab tests.

I'm glad that you feel it is easy to find a fibroscan in CA. Do you know where I should go to get one? Let me know if you have that info. I asked because I want to know, not because I'm trying to dodge your direct order!

Have as nice of a day as you possibly can,

Mike H

[Rockerforlife]

Blue green algae also contains phenyletheylamine or PEA, a brain chemical known as “the molecule of joy,” which improves mood and relaxation in many people. StemEnhance also contains phycocyanin, the blue-green pigment which is both anti-inflammatory and has anti-tumor properties.

Bill....if you are in a bad mood...try this stuff...

[Upbeat]

Hi
     I wish your alt and ast were better,  Are you not doing the Alpha Lipoic Acid  IV?  From what Dr Berkson says that is the key along with the LDN.  

[Rockerforlife]

Im actually going to try the blue berry leaf extract today...its good for over all gereral heath as well...sorry bill i posted again

[mhudnall]

No, I've laid off the IVs for the summer as well. I will be kicking it all in now. But, from my experience, I know that ALT/AST can be lowered by diet. And I was doing IVs during my last tests when my enzymes were also a little high.

Basically, in my opinion, the enzymes measure inflammation, but that is also controlled by what you eat. It is like running your engine on impure gas. Inflammation is caused by bad fats. ALA will help liver health, but it won't help you burn impure fuel - you still get "smog".

Luckily, enzymes are inexpensive to run. I'll get fastidious with my diet, IVs, etc. and then check it out. I'll let you know.

Nice to talk to you again Upbeat!

Mike H

[Rockerforlife]

CHECK THIS OUT


http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/M109.004945v1.pdf


"March on. Do not tarry. To go forward is to move toward perfection. March
on, and fear not the thorns, or the sharp stones on life's path." -- Kahlil
Gibran

[Rockerforlife]

AND LOWERS the viral load..its a fact

[Marcia2202]

Just my own experience.

This is my experience with lowering my ALT prior to treating.

Before I was dx'ed my ALT was up at around 136. 1 month later together with my dx they were still around that number.

I changed my diet to 100% organic, including all my skin products, household products etc. Only drank filtered water and showered with filtered water. Changed all my cooking pots to Le Creuset. Within 2 months I was able to get it down to 52 and one more months down to 36.

(Just before starting tx it went up a little and then stayed around the low 20ies all the way through tx. 4 1/2 months post it was at 12.)

[mhudnall]

Good points Marcia, and your observations concur with my observations, also Ev's. For those of us who are not on treatment, I think it is necessary to get out of the "magic pill" mindset, and realize that for optimal progress, a multi-pronged approach is necessary.

Additionally, I believe that there are huge benefits to living an optimally healthy lifestyle besides those reflected in lab tests. Quality of life is important to all of us, even those who have achieved SVR. Achieving SVR does not equate to health. I know several people that went through treatment, achieved SVR, and then took their places back on the bar stool. They are now as miserable as before. Just because they don't have hep c doesn't mean they are healthy (or wise, or kind, etc.).

To reiterate a point I made before, I believe that many people do not have coherent strategies, absent INF treatment, because they are asking the wrong people. Conventional doctors are pretty much specialists in pharma drug therapy. They are not interested in or are looking for strategies that don't involve drugs. That doesn't mean they don't exist. There are many examples of reasonable and effective strategies that are ignored by doctors simply because they aren't on the pharma drug rep's bullet point sheets. It is necessary to ask integrative medicine physicians for the latest strategies.

Any of these integrative physicians worth their salt use LDN and ALA for hep c. My doctor started with a complete blood panel that tested for nutritional deficiencies, all vitamins, minerals, hormones, etc. - a huge list. Then he started by correcting those deficiencies. He found that I was low on CoQ10 and a couple of other things. We have lately been dealing with my hypothyroidism and borderline anemia cause by treatment, with good success, I might add. We have also successfully addressed my low unbound testosterone levels and are attempting to coax my DHEA levels up - both side effects of treatment. My regular physicians would never test for many of these things, much less formulate whole-body strategies for dealing with them. My doctor encourages my dietary upgrades, and gives me many things that others on this board scream are "snake oil".

The integrative physicians actually take to heart the maxim "Physician, first do no harm!". I love it that my progress is now measured by improvements in health and well-being, rather than the opposite.

Many people on this board claim, quite authoritatively, that only INF can deal with hep c. They cloak themselves in the mantle of "science", ignoring the fact that there is plenty of science out there for alternative therapies. Refusing to look at science does not prove that it does not exist. What they are actually saying, if you analyze it, is that only FDA clinical studies in the drug approval process are valid science. Not only is this untrue, but it by definition excludes most science and all substances or strategies that are not FDA approved drugs. How convenient! Since clinical trials involve hundreds of millions of dollars, of course only drug companies can participate, because they are effectively monopolistic for-profit entities that are holding the medical industry captive.

If the FDA and the NIH did their jobs, which is to look into promising new therapies, there would be a lot more options. If they performed their mission statements instead of acting as the enforcement arm for the pharma industry, we would have clinical studies on these promising therapies. Instead, they are captive to the special interests that put profit over public welfare.

There goes my liver again!

Best regards,

Mike H

[Rockerforlife]

'You cant beat a dead horse"...LOL....you can lead to water tho,and push him in.

[Rockerforlife]

Who knows,maybe the PI drugs are made from blueberry leaves for all we know.

[Willy50]

The title of this thread is;

"mhudnall-LDN 12 month labs

The thread is about Mikes lab results.

When people post off topic information in a thread with a different subject it is often "hijacking a thread".  It is considered to be rude, forbidden in most forums and if you have not yet gathered it......annoying to many people.  I hope that is not your intent, but that's the effect.

You cannot tell people to not read topics about blueberry leaves and then insert them into as many threads as you deem.  How does one avoid them?

My opinion?  It's rude to the membership, it's rude to anyone who is interested in the topic and it's rude to Mike.  This is about his lab results, not your interest in blueberry leaves or possible interest in provoking people in Mikes thread.  Show some consideration and restraint.

In straying from the topic and in provoking people you end up diverting people from the main topic.  You also risk people reporting this thread.  This could cause the thread itself to be deleted.

I hope that you consider stopping this behavior.

best,
Willy

[mhudnall]

You posted,

"You were supposed to come back with a fibroscan result-instead you have come back asking MedHelp members to find a fibroscan facility for you-you couldn't make it up.!
The last sentence of your last post is' persistence will continue to be rewarded. '
How much persistence does it take to get a fibroscan in California? "

Apparently, Fibroscans aren't offered anywhere. If you think it's easy to find them then prove it and go find one for me. LabCorp doesn't offer them, and I've contacted several large hospitals that don't either. In the thread on Fibrosure on this forum the members here are of the opinion that the only tests available are the blood tests, and imaging machines are not available to the public.

I have no problem getting a blood test, but I don't know who will convinced by that, including me. It seems the only test that will satisfy you is the one that can't be done!

And no Commandante, I will not do a biopsy, even if you give me a direct order!

I'll post my fibrosure blood test results when I get them.

Mike H

[Rockerforlife]

True,the topic is about LDN lowering enzymes levels,i just posted a paper proving blueberry leaf extract does the same and may be helpful to Mike ,if this is high jacking a thread,im sorry.

[HCA]

I have never given you any orders.
All I have ever done is asked you to prove your claim that that histology of your liver has improved since your biopsy-you can't just claim this stuff,you have to provide evidence.
For what it's worth I think that these non-invasive diagnostics are rubbish.
I have had three Fibroscans and they all underestimate the damage as compared to biopsy.
As far as the liver governing mood is concerned my ALT and AST on August 12 th were 21 and 16 respectively.
I am sorry that your latest labs were not better.
To be honest I think you are deluding yourself about the intergrative medicine.
I have watched Berkson on YouTube and he comes across to me like the quack from central casting,bombastic,cheaply filmed, no graphics,the name of a respected medical facility in the title frame to suggest that that they are endorsing the event rather than just renting out the room.
I think that you would be better addressing the dernatological issues that marred your first treatment..
I felt good and trained hard with advanced Hep C until I couldn't any more.
Exercise and diet are not the answer like you are saying today.you need a tailored course of anti-viral therapy if at all possible

[Willy50]

In an earlier post and thread I suggested a fibrosure (blood test) as something non-invasive and relatively accurate.  I'm not equating the test as good as biopsy but suggest it may be about 85% the accuracy and better than nothing.  

Mike seemed to miss the spelling or significance and mentioned getting a fibroscan (this was a few weeks ago maybe).

  He clearly seems to know the difference now.  He should readily be able to get a fibrosure test.  It may be difficult to get a fibroscan in the USA, at least not without some difficulty and/or travel travel.  Frankly, I'm not sure that a fibroscan would be superior to a Fibrosure II, anyway.

He's trying to provide documentation.  I'm not sure what it will prove since it will likely be claimed that unless it is biopsy it will not be valid....

I'd also suggest that since there are not any baseline reads or interim reads drawing a conclusion will be "iffy".

Just content to mostly read.....

Willy

[mhudnall]

You demand proof, but my lab results are not proof to you. Decreased viral loads are not proof to you. Normal liver functions are not proof to you.

You demand evidence of improved histology, but imaging is not available. I'll do the FibroSure blood tests, but they are not proof to you. The only lab result that you find valid is biopsy, which I will not do.

You say I should address the dermatalogical issues and do treatment again. How do I address the dermatological issues? You are asking me to do something that is impossible.

You say exercise and diet are not the answer. Any proof?

You say I am deluding myself that my therapy is working, but you offer no proof.

You say I need a tailored course of anti-viral therapy. For instance? Once again, you are demanding something that doesn't exist.

For all your huffiness about science and proof, all you have are uninformed opinions.

You have sweeping generalizations about integrative medicine, but you have never been to an integrative physician. You know nothing about them or their protocols. How can you have such strong opinions about things you have no knowledge of?

For someone with an authoritarian mind-set such as yourself, it would seem that if someone possesses a medical degree and a PhD, you might be willing to concede that he might know a lot more about medicine than you do.

Plainly put, for you, interferon is the only thing; if interferon fails someone, then they should just give up, because in your OPINION they are doomed.

Some facts might help bolster your argument, but you are too intellectually lazy to put out that kind of effort. I would bet that of all of the things you so strongly disparage, you have not spent five seconds researching for yourself.

In my opinion, uninformed opinions are intellectually dishonest. If I disagree with something it will usually be the result of looking at both sides of an argument and forming a judgement. But that's just me.

Best regards,

Mike H

[Rockerforlife]

WOULD THIS BE considered a derogatioty comment:

"non-invasive diagnostics are rubbish"

a rule that MH has that can get you banned....comeon...lets be adults here.

[mhudnall]

Hey Willy, thanks for the clarification on the Fibrosure. I will get that done this week, even though I am kind of of skeptical about the accuracy. I would much rather couple the blood test with an imaging analysis.

I did have a stage 3 fibrosis reading by biopsy 4 1/2 years ago. If that was accurate, and if my protocol is indeed delusional, then I should probably well into stage 4 by now. Apparently the fibrosure is more accurate for high and low end readings, so it may be informative.

I'm pretty sure that anything short of a stage four reading will be disregarded as inaccurate anyway, but we'll check it out.

Hope all is well with you.

Mike H

[evangelin]

For the life of me , I can't see why Mike owes us proof. You have been very open already.  This isn't a clinical trial.  He is just a nice and intelligent guy who found a way to alleviate his bad situation and he isn't selfish enough to sit on it for himself.  Some people just have good hearts and want to share what has helped them with other suffering people.  If someone is not personally familiar with this outlook, it can seem suspicious to them.  
We are trying LDN because we weighed our options and the choice was easy because there were no more options.  Our family physician considered it carefully and decided there was no harm in trying it for Joe.  It gives us another shot right now, before things get any worse. Nope, it won't get rid of the virus but if it gives Joe some more good time with his family it will have been successful.  
Mike, I sure don't hold you responsible for whether or not this pans out.  When I shared the other supplements/herbs Joe was taking it wasn't because I had any proof that they were helping.  I have seen an astonishing improvement in Joe and I threw out all I knew so other people can look at it and decide.  
I can't see why you should get any test, invasive or non-invasive, unless you want it yourself. You have already given quite freely of your time to share the possibility LDN holds.  None of us are infallible but I see Mike's motives as pure.  He doesn't stand to profit except for the warm feeling you get by helping a fellow sufferer.
Mike has been a bright spot in this difficult journey.
Ev

[Rockerforlife]

Hats off to MIKE

[Rockerforlife]

I wonder if there are studies out there that follow people who cant do the SOC drugs but follow a healthy diet and herbs and trrack to see if there is any improvment in there liver and lives....ill bet a lot of people who follow the right nutrition and do the alternative route live a long and healthy life,BTW...i am not high jacking this thread....LOL

[tashka]

There were several reports on this forum from people who cleared the virus without any treatment after having it for many years. No interferon/riba. No diet or IVs. No special regimens-just cleared the virus. I am very curious to know the mechanism of this clearance. And I am surprized that clinical researchers don't seek these people out and find out what exactly happened. I think, this could open up new horizones in the treatment of this disease.
Mike, thank you for sharing and most of all for being honest with us. You could have easily said that your labs are all normal and AST/ALT are great. Honesty is very important. I appreciate your input and your experiences.

[mhudnall]

Luckily the enzymes are inexpensive tests. I'll do them again in a month or so to make sure I get them down with diet upgrade. I know I can fix those, but it's nice the lab tests are cheap too.

Always good to verify!

Best regards,

MIke H

[Rockerforlife]

Mike,have you considered stem cell therapy,now before i get attacked,let mike answer

[mhudnall]

Rocker,

I must admit I haven't looked at the info you sent me. Could you re-send the video url to me as a private message?

I do believe that all of that stuff is worth investigating, including blueberry leaf. Remember I do the Human Placenta Extract, so that is pretty close to stem cell therapy.

Keep on rockin!

Mike h

[tashka]

Mike, did you check any other parameters-bilirubin, platelets, albumin, protein? Are they OK?

[mhudnall]

Yeah, everything is really good. albumin is high normal, bilirubin is low normal, platelets mid normal, total protein slightly high normal.

The really good thing is that we have been working on my rbcs and hematocrit; both are edging up - still low normal but moving toward mid normal.

The only things out of range are T4 slightly low, DHEA low and SHBG. Those are all treatment related.

Both me and my doc are very pleased with the labs, even with the elevated enzymes. As I said, I can lower those. Also, I feel like a million bucks. I know everyone says that doesn't mean anything, but my doc says it does, and I would rather feel great than feel lousy. Also, how many people feel great after treatment? How many get back to feeling normal whether they reach SVR or not? I honestly don't know the answer to that, but I haven't heard from many that do. I have heard from a lot of people that say they have never felt the same after treatment, though.

We'll see what the fibrosis tests say. I might have fond an imaging machine, but that is still in the works!

Be well everyone!

Mike H

[tashka]

Yes, this is one of my big fears-that if we attempt treatment with interferon/riba, my husband will never be the same, physically, mentally, and emotionally. Quality of life is very important for him. I think, feeling good is very important-this is what our life is about, that is why we want to live.
I am glad that you feel good. Good luck to you.

[Rockerforlife]

i sent you a few videos.Mike,im happy someone has the open mind to at least check this out.

[Bali05]

Hi Mike,

If you find a FIBROSCAN machine in the US that we can use please let me know.

I have not been able to find one other than in Boston which you need to have a biopsy

first so they can compare it to (really makes sense doen`t it ?)

Anyway if I were you I would do a FibroSure blood test right away with labcorp that is very easy

takes a week for result. While you wait keep looking for FibroScan in the US.

Maybe you will find it maybe not. If you are willing to fly to Germany (Dusseldorf)

I can give you the contact address. You arrive at airport in the morning and take a cab

to hospital. Wait about an hour get test done (15min) and than 1 more hr for written

reports and consultation with professor. I paid 150 Euro.Do not know what they

charge an american but I can find out if you are interested.

Ease up on that barbeque already will yeah ?

I just added bilberry and blueberry leaf extract to my supplements.

Came across a women claiming to have cleared the virus with bilberry extract

bought at Walmart out of all places . Of course there is no proof.

Oh , by the way turns out I am h.pylori negative. I started taking Betaine w/pepsin

felt better but now stopped it because I have to much acid and I need to get it in check

without adding or taking away acid.Just lots of enzymes,probiotics and diet.

I will do my labs in about a month once I have this ulcer situation under control.

Will let you know. I have been on an 90% organic diet since dx June 12.

Just skipped a week of IVs. I think I will continue with like once or twice a week

with that until next labs. It is getting to be quite expensive and I am constantly

trying to find better quality supplements as well.

I like what Tashka posted about people who clear spontaneously naturally

and how come no one seems to be investigating that. Well maybe no one in

the US. After all sometimes things just make more money when they are left

the way they are. I found a study from Germany of about I think 64 people

that cleared chronic naturally and what they had in common was low antibody titter

as well as previous Hep A/B infection. Somehow the Hep C virus has a harder

time to hold on to you when the other Hep viruses had been around according

to that study. Anyway I find it refreshing that this is being looked at because

every doctor I met so far acts like as if it does not exist that people can

clear by themselves.

I am taking LDN simply because there is evidence that it works against cancer..

That is reason enough for me and for everything else I keep my fingers crossed.

Also if it elevates your mood that is extremely important in my view for Hep C

(since we are not allowed any booze)

I am working out and trying to be as fit as possible. There is just something about

going to the doctors office in peak physical shape with a bounce in your step  and

smile on your face no matter what diagnosis or lab results.

Bali05

[Bali05]

Mike,

I forgot one more thing. If you find a Fibroscan please let me know but honestly

what difference does it make ? What would you do differently given the possible

results you might be able to obtain from those tests?

Bali05

[mhudnall]

Hey Bali,

nice to see you check in. Like I mentioned, I might have found a fibroscan without the biopsy requirement; also plan on doing the fibrosure blood test. I'll let you know about the fibroscan. I would like to do both.

No worries here, I was on a really strict diet for three and a half years. Taking the summer off was just a natural thing to do. But I am looking forward to getting back to a clean diet. The labs are only part of it. I love the feeling of getting to maximum health and energy.

As far as the IVs go, I think of them as very useful when you are making a push forward. You can't do them all the time. But they sure help when you are ready for big leaps in progress.

Also, LDN is great for working out. Endorphins are all about the good feelings from working out.

Keep at it brother, it will all come together soon.

Good hearing from you as always,

Mike H

[tashka]

Bali, could you post the link to this study? I am very interested. Or at least an author, so I could search PubMed? Seems strange that these people had low antibody titers. It is antibodies that destroy the virus. But who knows? Our bodies hide many mysteries.
I am a college student, and lately in one of the classes we've been talking about paradigms-the sets of rules that people adopt. We discussed how these paradigms become the filters that allow only certain kinds of information into our thinking. And we talked about how medical field is especially prone to such paradigms. We hear them all the time. Biopsy is the golden standard (I got very painfully burned on this one). Interferon/riba is the only way to go. It is not possible to clear chronic hepatitis C without treatment. And if anybody tries to challenge this-it is considered a crime of some sort. I am glad that there are people who are not afraid to step over this "rules", experiment and challenge.
I also heard about very positive experiences with Bilberry supplement. We are going to try it. Blueberries are very healthy anyway, so ther will be no harm. Nice to hear from you again.

[mhudnall]

And don't forget about the paradigm that fibrosis cannot be reversed in the presence of the virus.

The old paradigm was that fibrosis could not be reversed at all.

The new paradigm is that fibrosis can be reversed if SVR is achieved but not if SVR is not achieved.

It is important to note that all paradigms are accepted truths that do not have to be proven. Medicine is full of these paradigms.

Mike H

[Bali05]

Hi Tashka,

here is the link:

http://huehueteotl.wordpress.com/2007/09/06/surviving-hepatitis-c/



Bali05

[mikesimon]

"Yeah, everything is really good. albumin is high normal, bilirubin is low normal, platelets mid normal, total protein slightly high normal. "

What are those numbers?

Mike

[mhudnall]

Hey Mike,

Here are the numbers:

Albumin: 4.6 (3.3-4.9)

Bilirubin, total: 0.5 (0.2-1.3)

Platelets: 194 (130-450)

Total Protein: 7.6 (6.0-8.0)

Also the hemo panel is looking better.

What do you think? I like the albumin. My march labs showed a 4.3 albumin with a 1.4 (1.0-2.0) alb/glob ratio. Didn't do that ratio this time, but did do BUN/creatinine:
BUN 11 (8-25), BUN/Creat- 10.6 (10.0-28.0). Pretty happy about all that; all is normal except those markers listed above.

Also, I am getting a lab order for the fibrosure blood test from my doctor and I think I have found a fibroscan that I can use. I would rather have both than just the blood test. A lot of those blood markers seem pretty movable to me. I might get both done this week.

I'll let you know. Hope everything is good.

Mike H

[JennyPenny]

Just for comparison sake......I have had Stage 4 (cirrhosis) since my first biopsy. It was confirmed again when I did a second biopsy that was done laproscopically. I have treated many times and barely reached a 2 log drop. Obviously I have never been clear. BTW, I got hep C in 1966 so I've had it a very long time. I do not do anything but the obvious, no alcohol, try to keep my blood glucose in range (A1C test is 6%) and take care with medications. I have also had cirrhosis for a minimum of 17 years. Here are my latest labs just for comparison. ( ny VL runs between 1.6 million copies and 6 million copies). I haven't checked it in 2 years because it really does not matter.

Albumin: 4.3 (3.6-4.8)

Bilirubin, total: 0.7 (0.1-1.2)

Platelets: 127 (130-450)

Total Protein: 7.5 (6.0-8.5)

Alk Phos: 89 (26-165)

AST: 38 (0-40)

ALT:  39 (0-42)

WBS 4.5 (3.8-11.00)

ANC 2.3 (2.0-7.8

Hemoglobin 13.1 (12.0-18.0)

My hepdoc laughs and says with labs like these I should apply for life insurance. Unfortunately I have to vote with the posters who do not believe what you are doing is the reason for your decent labs. I wish it was different and it did work. I'd be the first one in line to try it.

[mhudnall]

Hi Jenny,

You do have very good labs except platelets and viral load. You obviously are doing something right!

As for my protocol, we all have different opinions. We are all adults here and we all live with our own decisions. However, I think you should concede that your "vote" is an opinion, and really just that. My opinion is also just that. But wouldn't you like to have lower viral loads? By taking a pill that strengthens your immune system with no side effects? Do you think really that is insignificant?

My point is that the immune system is the way the body fights chronic viral infection. By strengthening and optimizing your immune system in a natural way to fight chronic hep c seems reasonable to me. Once again, just my opinion. But you say, you wish it did work - if it did you would try it. Well, what makes you think it isn't working? Would you like to see some of the science behind it? If your mind is made up and the research  is irrelevant, then that is fine. But if you would like to understand the philosophy behind the drug, then maybe you should look at it with an open mind, and then form an opinion.

If you would like to see some of the research send me a pm with your regular email address and I will send you some things to look at. If not, no problem with me. I just know a few hep c patients that are using LDN and that would disagree with you.

Best regards,

MIke H

[JennyPenny]

Truthfully I do not want to mess with success. Plus, my immune system is always so revved up, it scares me to think about taking anything that will rev it up anymore. The interferon did a number on my immune system. But thank you for the offer.

Also, I didn't intend to imply that what I was saying was more than my opinion. I recognize that is all it is. Good luck to you and stay well.

Susie

[mhudnall]

And best of luck to you! I hope your strategies pan out for you.

Mike H

[tashka]

Hi Jenny,
I am just amazed at your labs. They are great. I am so happy for you-really. Results like this give hope to all of us. But I remember that you mentioned your doctor prscribing some ARB medication (losartan or valsartan) to halt liver fibrosis. This could be an important factor in your results.
I wonder if there is any chance that you do not have cirrhosis. After my husband's experience with "golden standard" nothing would surprize me, and I sincerely wish this for you. What if during biopsy they just picked the piece that had a lot of damage? I read that often outer surface of the liver can be cirrhotic, but internal core is pretty healthy. And I suppose, it can be the opposite way too. The only way to know for sure is to slice the liver, which, obviously, can not be done. The closest thing to "slicing", that I found on this forum, was experience of one person (forgot his name) who did a special type of liver CT scan in Brazil. It amazed me that his liver showed areas of cirrhosis along with completely healthy (F0) tissue. But, unfortunately, this is not done in US.
In many countries biopsies are not performed routinely. And cirrhosis is diagnosed only when synthetic function of the liver deteriorates (albumin, protein, clotting factors), or complications (ascitis, esophageal bleeding) develop.
I am very glad your liver works so well. No matter the diagnosis, it is the only thing that really matters. Thank you for sharing this information. You can not even imagine how important it is for me.

[JennyPenny]

Hi there. I don't think there is a prayer that I don't have cirrhosis. Although my synthetic liver function is just fine. I've had an abdominal surgery where they actually could see my liver and the surgeon said it was pretty bad looking. that was in 2002. My last biopsy was also laprascopic so they could see a small part of the liver. My platelets have been low for 20 years, although not very low, just right below normal. I am 101% sure I am cirrhotic. I wish they knew what makes some people deal with it and stay compensated for so many  years and then some progress rapidly. The other thing that I'll say is even though the HALT C trials said maintenance does not help, I have been on interferon since 1992 with very little time off. I can't take it any more, but I did 100's of injections.

You're not talking about a spiral CT scan are you? I've had that here in the US.

[tashka]

No, it was not spital CT, something different. I wish, I saved this post. The guy posted all of these pictures in his profile. The liver was broken into little squares of different colors-dependent on the level of damage. I'll try to find it somehow. I found it very interesting.
I am actually pretty amazed that your AST/ALT are normal. I know that in some people with cirrhosis they are normal. The explanation is that most liver cells already died or are depleted of the enzymes. It kind of fits in the picture of cirrhosis. But your synthetic functions are good, so you have enough liver cells to do everything that liver needs to do. And they are obviously in good condition.
It also puzzles me why this disease manifests in such different way in different people. There are so many mysteries here. I wish, more research would be done in this area, and especially in the individuals who spontaneously cleared chronic hepatitis C.
I can not imagine taking interferon for years. Do you have any long term sides? Or all of them went away?

[bajawoman]

acutally I believe a fibroscan is better than a biopsy as it reads many areas of the liver and gives different readings of damage as it is  not just one area  if you are going to get a biopsy a laproscopy one is the way to go  I just chose not to get a biopsy and went with the fibrotest and fibroscan done by the best so I feel confident  my reading did show one very small stage 4 area and areas with borderline stage 3 areas  I know most people are of the mind set about biopsy as the only real way to know but just is not my mindset  
cheers  Baja

[tashka]

I agree with you about fibroscan. Unfortunately, it is not available in the US.

[bajawoman]

sure it is there is one in florida and one in los angeles

[tashka]

Well, going to Florida or LA is like going to the moon for us. We are located far away from both places. It will, probably, cost a fortune to travel and to get it done. I also think that Fibroscan is available there as a part of research study, which means that you have to qualify and to have recent biopsy for comparison (not an option, of course).
Where did you get yours done? Was it hard to get an appointment? I would appreciate information.
By "not available" I meant not widely available/covered by insurance like biopsy, which you can get pretty much anywhere.

[comeagain]

Got my naltrexone today .

The schrink I went to was a scary character,
He had this typically therapy bench and all four walls was covered with terrible african and perhaps southamerican masks.

I ask if they where genuin and he said they where.
Since I`m a Jesus guy, there was a fight in the spirit let me tell you.

But lucky for me he recognised my name ( this person happened to knew my father, glad someone do because I hardely do I told him) he charged me only 10$ for the visit and the meds will only cost me  5$ a month quite cheap HA.

I have a 30months supply and will get back to you about how it will effect me if it will.
Well I tell you if it dosn´t also.

ca

PS I don´t need to tell you how the fight went do I ?
Well Jesus won that figt for more than 2000years ago LOL Prays His name!!

[mhudnall]

Good for you, I think you will appreciate the results. In a couple weeks to a month I think you will notice nice effects on your outlook and ability to experience joy and pleasure.

I think Jesus likes positive energy.

Please keep us informed.

Mike H

[stefen143]

just to redirect again to the original thread on LDN; i am only interested as to why was there an increase in the viral load from january to september 2009 (VL 58 000 to 302 000) when you were on the LDN treatment? did it mean that LDN was ineffective and probably caused the increase viral load?

[Trinity4]

Because LDN has no effect on HCV, except to deplete the patient's bank account.

Trinity

[tashka]

As far as I know, LDN is not expensive.

[Trinity4]

According to Berkson along with the LDN, the ALA IV's are crucial in acheiving results so I was commenting on the big picture, which is very costly.

Trinity

[mhudnall]

To answer your question,

The viral load went up because the LDN apparently was losing its power. However, the starting vl was 1.6 million, so even at 300 thousand, it was still a significant decrease. Increasing the dose from 3.0 mg up to 4.5 mg brought the vl back down.

LDN does not need to be taken with ALA IVs. It is best to be used in a multi-prong approach, however.

My current regimen is LDN, Zhang's herbs to normalize enzymes, and HepTech nutrients to combat fibrosis.

[Bali05]

Hey Mike,

Always great to hear from you. Thanks for the update on your protocol.
Couple more weeks and my tx halftime is coming up.


b