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pharma vs holistic hep c treatment
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pharma vs holistic hep c treatment

Along comes this HVC after hitching a ride for about 25/30 years. Read lots on the net about past and present pharma and natural herbal therapys,side effects and degrees of success on both sides. Without being derogatory, I'll call'em the Suits and the Hippies.
The Suits have some very convincing momentum in the battle against HVC for us but at a cost, both financial and side effect prone with varying success. The Hippies seem to be gaining (by my observation from the failure of the Suits) some momentum with less costs, little to no side effects with claims of degrees of success. Both are advancing in their knowledge and help so I must add I praise them all for effort.
Non are going to disappear tomorrow, nor am I but here's my question finally. Has anyone given any particular, less invasive and side effect prone Hippy strategy to return to (full health HVC wise) or is this more often used as a last resort (as I seem to gleen) after the Suits have had their chance but left you less than satified with their end result.
(If they would only get their collective knowledgeable heads together for all our benefits.)

Theewoodman  
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" Every one is so concerned about side effects of the tx, they act as though it's worse than the disease."

Many people recover from treatment pretty well, some come out with what I call "souvenirs" that are permanent but manageable. For a certain segment of people, treatment has either been extremely difficult and harmful with more distressing outcomes  OR it has simply failed. One fellow in my support group has tried treatment twice and it's failed and each time, he's come away from it with permanent health conditions. For him, treating a third time is a daunting proposition.  It frankly pi$$es me off to no end that this is ignored by those who so fervently push treatment  - these people need to be exploring alternatives to keep the impacts of existing Hep C under control.  For that matter....it's also a matter of personal choice if someone reads about the side effects of interferon and ribavirin and decide that they want to avoid treatment until better options come along and see if they can live with their Hep C instead.  That is THEIR choice, as long as it's an educated one.  Their body, their life.  They have NOT automatically sentenced themselves to death in that case if they are carefully watching and monitoring their health and are making use of alternatives to keep their fibrosis and their viral load in check.  People say there is no usefulness to keeping viral load in check but that's not entirely known - what IS known is that treating with a lower viral load potentially offers more chance of success so if one is keeping options open and trying to create optimal conditions IF they do end up having to go into treatment. I would be looking to keep viral load down as a " can't hurt, might help" approach as there are new things being learned all the time about Hep C.

There is nothing CLINICALLY proven to cure Hep C other than the known drug therapy we have today.  That is a fact.  That does not mean that there are not other things out there that improve conditions for persons with Hep C - and potentially even improve them to the point where life expectancy and the quality of life and health prognosis is greatly enhanced for persons with Hep C.  Perhaps if we explored these options more fully, it may be that CURE is not the only acceptable goal that persons with Hep C can entertain - nor should be allowed to entertain, when the current drugs are as difficult as they are with side effects that range from mild to debilitating from person to person and when the current rate of success with SOC drugs is still just under 50%. New and promising drugs on their way but still not a 100% panacea and accessibility to these drugs along with the new resistance issues to be addressed remain to unfold.  

I have thyroid issues as one of my "souvenirs".  I take daily medication. Easily manageable and controllable. Perhaps...just perhaps...we might find something that keeps Hep C in check enough to increase life expectancy and inhibit damage to the point where the number of liver transplants from Hep C is greatly decreased as well.  That isn't going to happen if the only option people ever entertain or investigate is the current pharmaceutical treatment.

Surviving Hep C is the goal....cure is certainly a great way to achieve that.  For some, that isn't going to happen and it would be nice if people can stop beating the treatment drum long enough to give a voice to those who need to discuss other options....and those who simply WANT to along the way to determining what is best for themselves in their own situation.  If treatment ends up being the best option for a person, that will become clear to them and I'd rather have the freedom to explore all my options so that I can feel some comfort with the option I've settled on after all that, knowing why what I've chosen is best for ME.
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Can you provide an example of a hippie treatment that cleared someone of the virus, that isn't purely anecdotal?
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I have only read about a decrease in viral load with the hippie sort of treatment. There are very many people who have totally cleared all of the virus out of their bodies with SOC.

Unless you get rid of all of the virus, it will come back and continue to damage your liver.

I have 2 weeks to go with SOC and my virus was undetectable by my 12th week of treatment (I'm going for 48) It hasn't been a picnic for sure, but if they still can't find any virus 6 months after I finish, I can consider myself cured. There are no other treatments that give that benefit.

Diane.
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Avatar_m_tn
That is my question also to the masses, however, in my readings I have come across several intriguing sites. One is , http://lloydwright.org/. and my question remains I hope on neutral ground. I just hope I havent' confused anyone with my intro as I enterpret what I've learned so far.. Just looking for experiences and personal accounts.
Thanks for your responce.
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Since there are no proven methods of achieving an undetectable viral load without using interferon, the question becomes "Do you wish to try and coexist with the virus while minimizing the damage it does?" If this is the case, there is a huge range of supplements, lifestyle choices, and even herbs that 'may' help with this. Unfortunately, as with so many things, a lot of it comes down to genetics - something none of us can change. Some people can live  totally organic, eat handsful of supplements and herbs and still go galloping to cirrhosis. Others ignore their disease and live to a ripe old age. It all depends - "Do you feel lucky?".
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If buy into L. Wright, I've got some land I'd like to sell. It's a little bit damp at high tide.
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It's the hippie approach that got a lot of people into the mess in the first place.  Please explain how the hippies "seem to be gaining".  I don't get that.
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Avatar_m_tn

  There have been many claims of certain degrees of success in dealing with HCV  by taking different supplements.herbs,natural products and the like. There may be some validity in that some of these products have varying degrees of success in lowering or perhaps keeping low the liver enzymes and there has even been claims of some of these modalities keeping viral load lower,however that has not been clinically proven.

Unfortunately today the only treatment that  IS clinically proven to eradicate HCV  is the combination tx.of  Inf/Riba. However the future has never looked brighter in regards to new  meds coming on the market,with seemingly better efficacy  and perhaps shorter treatment times.

In the meantime there are many  companys and salespeople on the net that would like you believe they have the answer ,most recently someone proclaiming a food preservative was the panacea...so proceed with caution..

Good luck

WILL
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Because she has lupus on top of her hepatitis,,my friend was unable to receive a treatment such as interferon. She has treated on and off with homeopathy for the past five years, plants and acupuncture.,she did not get rid of the virus but for over three years the virus has shown non active on her blood tests. the signs of early fibrosis in her liver do not show up in her scans anymore. BTW, she feels and looks great and was able to get back to her life as a musician., Yes, the hep c is still present.,but, so far she is physically and mentally fit again with absolutely no side effects. I am a true proponent of non western medicines which when combined with our science can only make for the best medical system ever. If I decide on interferon I will def use it along with Chinese practices ie acupuncture and if the degree of my liver damage happens to be at an early stage, I will def look at my alternatives first. Our medicine is one based on the "emergency" mode which unfortunately forgets that a liver or a colon, cells, muscle... cannot function separately. By isolating each of these vital organs we also tend to forget the big picture which is the post treatment reality. I think hippies and suits should walk hand in hand. I don't think any of them hold the absolute truths. Can't wait to see more of that relationship in our insurance policies, programs develop and all that jazz.
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"she did not get rid of the virus but for over three years the virus has shown non active on her blood tests. the signs of early fibrosis in her liver do not show up in her scans anymore. "

What do you mean when you say non-active?  The virus doesn't actually go non-active and there is no test that declares Hep C active or non-active - it's either present or it's not and if it's present, it's active.  So I'm thinking you must be referring to something else such as low viral load or something?  Can you clarify please?  

I can see that taking certain substances can reduce fibrosis.  If pharmaceuticals can do that, I have no doubt that the right combination of herbals can do it also.  And those that have treated and it has failed for them - or those who choose not to treat, to my knowledge, use certain natural substances or substances extracted from naturals, to keep fibrosis and viral load in check as much as they can.
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"Has anyone given any particular, less invasive and side effect prone Hippy strategy to return to (full health HVC wise) or is this more often used as a last resort (as I seem to gleen) after the Suits have had their chance but left you less than satified with their end result."

Not sure what you mean by "return to full health HCV wise" - are you talking cured where your viral load is proven undetectable for a sustained period of time? (That proven word is key.)  Or are you talking those that are living well and relatively healthy in spite of having Hep C?

"(If they would only get their collective knowledgeable heads together for all our benefits.) "

No kidding, eh?  I think there is merit in combining the best of both approaches for various reasons.  To be completely aware of the benefits of natural approaches is important and the pharmaceutical approaches and to be able to choose from the range of options to do what is best for YOU within your own big picture is key.  Seems we deal with the two extremes often enough and I'd prefer a much more open dialogue on all options.
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IMHO the success or failure of any school of medicine is largely dependent on the doctor. The more subtle the system the more dependent.
To its credit modern western medicine tries for an off the peg, one size fits all, mass applicable system. This obviously is a nice effort to help everyone even if the doctor is not  so well-tuned. Diagnostic tests are extremely accurate, even if expensive, and not dependent on  the doctors skills at all. The doc reads from his patient's charts of data and prescribes according to the drug companies' charts of data, modified and adapted as per his experience, or some new research  paper recently published.
On the down side the system concentrates huge amounts of  money in a few people's hands, and turns it all into an industry.  No need to elaborate where that can lead.
Other schools of medicine such as Ayurveda, Chinese, Homeopathy etc are more heavily dependent on the doctor and his skills. Find a good doctor in these schools, and western diagnostics become relegated to confirming what the doctor can divine by his own examination.
Since the strength of  the disease, and the patient determine the strength of the medicine a custom-made approach is always preferable, and even with Inf/riba SOC a good doctor  will customize it for his patient, this is why there will always be discussion over what works, because the cure has to  be tailored  for  the patient, especially with something as slippery as Hep C. Just because something worked for you, doesn't mean it will work for everyone.
We don't really know  what is going on even with a multitude of  reports and research and statistics and percentages, as we are dependent on others investigations and opinions  to form ours.
Suits is a fair enough term for allopathic medicine as it is run on business lines, but 'Hippies' seems a little shallow for everything else, as  some schools of medicine are thousands of years old and have a far deeper understanding of the body working as a complete unit on more than just the gross physical level.
Remove the money-making aspect and have government funding of  research, and I'm sure progress would be faster. Even a simple "if you don't get cured you needn't pay" policy would be nice. How is it that doctors, lawyers and pharmaceutical companies all  get their money even if  their product or  services don't  deliver?? What other commercial ventures work like that?
Wherever there's billions of dollars moving around, fudging  and manipulating  is very tempting.
Hep C can be defeated there is no doubt about that, how you do it is as much up  to  you as how, if, and to whom  you choose  to pray.
The best of luck.
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Avatar_m_tn
Maybe and, then again, maybe not.

Good luck,
Mike
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1130586_tn?1316269892

"Even a simple "if you don't get cured you needn't pay" policy would be nice. How is it that doctors, lawyers and pharmaceutical companies all  get their money even if  their product or  services don't deliver?? What other commercial ventures work like that?"

Well said Murariji .... and unfortunately very true that the medical and law "industries" get paid big bucks regardless of their performance .......

but hey ...

Doctors & Lawyers "practice" their "professions" .... ??

Are there any other "professions" where you can actually get paid to "practice"  ? ?
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There are many alternatives that can support the liver function. But NONE of the alternatives will eradicate the virus. If complete eradication is your goal, then interferon and ribavirin (and in the nearest future telaprevir and boceprevir) is the only answer currently available.
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Loyd Wright is a fraud and his snake oil has never been proven to cure anyone. That's independent verification, the kind that counts.  How can we expect others to take hep c seriously when there are so many heppers that don't.  Every one is so concerned about side effects of the tx, they act as though it's worse than the disease. The disease that is the number one cause of liver transplant in the world, killing 100's and 100's of people world wide.

If someone has a tumor on there liver and the Doc says you need chemo, how many times do they say nah chemo *****. I think I'll try milk thisle, golden seal and echanacia.
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You're equating people with Hep C in general to people with cancer?  Untreated cancer has a far different life expectancy than untreated Hep C.  How many people can go years and years with a detected malignant cancer and potentially survive it with no treatment whatsoever?  You're not talking apples and apples here.  Generally, a detected malignant cancer requires immediate treatment whereas that is not at all the case with Hep C, depending on the amount of liver damage.  

As far as tumours on the liver, those at risk for liver cancer are not just anyone with Hep C but primarily those who have advanced to cirrhosis.  

And while Hep C is the major underlying cause of liver transplant, there is only a small segment of people with Hep C who will require a liver transplant.  Certainly it requires some careful monitoring if you are fortunate enough to be aware of your Hep C before it's already severely impacted the liver however the general rule of thumb is that you'll die with your Hep C, not because of it.  Having said that, I tend to think there is not enough attention paid to other health issues that can be caused by the existence of Hep C.

Hep C is not an immediate death sentence nor is it something to take lightly.  I don't see the usefulness in either extreme of understating OR overstating the situation.

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" Every one is so concerned about side effects of the tx, they act as though it's worse than the disease."

Many people recover from treatment pretty well, some come out with what I call "souvenirs" that are permanent but manageable. For a certain segment of people, treatment has either been extremely difficult and harmful with more distressing outcomes  OR it has simply failed. One fellow in my support group has tried treatment twice and it's failed and each time, he's come away from it with permanent health conditions. For him, treating a third time is a daunting proposition.  It frankly pi$$es me off to no end that this is ignored by those who so fervently push treatment  - these people need to be exploring alternatives to keep the impacts of existing Hep C under control.  For that matter....it's also a matter of personal choice if someone reads about the side effects of interferon and ribavirin and decide that they want to avoid treatment until better options come along and see if they can live with their Hep C instead.  That is THEIR choice, as long as it's an educated one.  Their body, their life.  They have NOT automatically sentenced themselves to death in that case if they are carefully watching and monitoring their health and are making use of alternatives to keep their fibrosis and their viral load in check.  People say there is no usefulness to keeping viral load in check but that's not entirely known - what IS known is that treating with a lower viral load potentially offers more chance of success so if one is keeping options open and trying to create optimal conditions IF they do end up having to go into treatment. I would be looking to keep viral load down as a " can't hurt, might help" approach as there are new things being learned all the time about Hep C.

There is nothing CLINICALLY proven to cure Hep C other than the known drug therapy we have today.  That is a fact.  That does not mean that there are not other things out there that improve conditions for persons with Hep C - and potentially even improve them to the point where life expectancy and the quality of life and health prognosis is greatly enhanced for persons with Hep C.  Perhaps if we explored these options more fully, it may be that CURE is not the only acceptable goal that persons with Hep C can entertain - nor should be allowed to entertain, when the current drugs are as difficult as they are with side effects that range from mild to debilitating from person to person and when the current rate of success with SOC drugs is still just under 50%. New and promising drugs on their way but still not a 100% panacea and accessibility to these drugs along with the new resistance issues to be addressed remain to unfold.  

I have thyroid issues as one of my "souvenirs".  I take daily medication. Easily manageable and controllable. Perhaps...just perhaps...we might find something that keeps Hep C in check enough to increase life expectancy and inhibit damage to the point where the number of liver transplants from Hep C is greatly decreased as well.  That isn't going to happen if the only option people ever entertain or investigate is the current pharmaceutical treatment.

Surviving Hep C is the goal....cure is certainly a great way to achieve that.  For some, that isn't going to happen and it would be nice if people can stop beating the treatment drum long enough to give a voice to those who need to discuss other options....and those who simply WANT to along the way to determining what is best for themselves in their own situation.  If treatment ends up being the best option for a person, that will become clear to them and I'd rather have the freedom to explore all my options so that I can feel some comfort with the option I've settled on after all that, knowing why what I've chosen is best for ME.
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Sorry Trish but you can tell that to the people who have died from Hep C.  
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"Sorry Trish but you can tell that to the people who have died from Hep C. "

I deal with people all the time who are dealing with their Hep C, James.  It does no good to give people with Hep C the impression they have a death sentence over their head every day.  All the time we have people arriving in this forum who think they've just been handed a death sentence and we go to great effort to calm people down and explain that this may not be and is probably not the case for them.  I prefer to focus on options and hope and reality - focusing on liver transplant and liver cancer is not the reality for most people with Hep C, only some people and it's keeping people from getting there.  Frankly, treatment is not the ONLY way to do that and if you cared so much about people dying from Hep C you would not hold out treatment as the ONLY option, removing HOPE from people who do not have treatment as an option for various reasons.
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"discuss other options"

What are those other options, for some one with stage three liver disease ?
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It really ISN'T pharma VERSUS holistic.  It's pharma in companion with holistic.  It doesn't do any good to position either / or.  There is currently no holistic/ alternative cure however alternatives have their place in helping people survive their Hep C.  It's really as simple as that and it does nobody any good to position the one AGAINST the other but to look at where each one fits for persons with Hep C and where each one benefits.  Treatment is no good for my buddy's mother who has kidney disease.  She can't do treatment. So it doesn't fit for her.  It fit just fine for me and isn't that great for ME...it's not so great for my buddy who has tried twice and still no go....so in the meantime, alternatives are what he's using until there's a better option for him.  It's NOT one versus the other.  It's them both in companion WHERE applicable for each individual circumstance accordingly.
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"hope". What does that mean ? Should we "pray" too.  

Minimize the disease hope it goes away, hope you don't need a liver transplant, and hope you don't die.  GO FOR IT.  I'll take my chances with SOC.  And you can do your thing.  I "hope" no one dies because you "calmed" them down and led them to believe they won't die from liver disease.
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Tell your friends mother it's no big deal, focus on the fact that "only" 12,000 people a year die from Hep C out of 4 million (in the US).

Just expressing my opinion about the "just live with it" attitude that many heppers have.  If you don't like it TFB.
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"Minimize the disease hope it goes away, hope you don't need a liver transplant, and hope you don't die.  GO FOR IT.  I'll take my chances with SOC.  And you can do your thing.  I "hope" no one dies because you "calmed" them down and led them to believe they won't die from liver disease."

"Tell your friends mother it's no big deal, focus on the fact that "only" 12,000 people a year die from Hep C out of 4 million (in the US). "

Hope nobody lives in fear every day from the time of their diagnosis needlessly. Hope everybody is free to explore ALL their options and know that treatment is one of them but not the ONLY one if treatment does not work for them.  

You're distorting my words completely and there's no point in talking any further with someone who's going to misrepresent what I'm saying either carelessly or on purpose.
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"...How many people can go years and years with a detected malignant cancer and potentially survive it with no treatment whatsoever?...."

Maybe men with prostate cancer? I just don't know how many but I do know a few.

Mike
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All the better then, Mike.  
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This topic is a poignant one for me…I have encountered far too many people who have tried treatment or can't do treatment due to their own unique situation and WANT to know what ELSE they can do.   I'd like to put this out there as food for thought and that pretty much sums it up for me.  Whether people spit it out or chew on it..up to them but at least they will have the option and that's what matters to me.

This is the website for Sloan-Kettering Cancer Centre's Integrative Medicine division.  Clearly they have found the benefit of combining traditional pharmaceutical therapies with complementary medicines and this approach is what is called Integrative Medicine.  The fact that this exists at all at a renowned Cancer Centre should speak to the value to be found in taking the best of both approaches and applying them to the specific needs of the patient.

http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/1979.cfm

"Established in 1999, the Integrative Medicine Service at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center complements mainstream medical care by addressing the physical and emotional symptoms associated with cancer and its treatment. Our services and therapies are available to anyone receiving cancer care, whether at the Center or elsewhere. Programs are also open to family members of those undergoing cancer treatment, as well as Memorial Sloan-Kettering faculty and staff.
The breadth of the work done at the service has gained it international recognition as a model program, and we receive over 1,400 inpatient and outpatient visits each month. The Integrative Medicine Service also has a roster of funded laboratory research and clinical trials, and offers multiple on-site and Web-based training programs for professionals."

This link is to their "Herbs, Botanicals and Other Products" section. I have referred to this on a number of occasions and particularly while on treatment when my white counts plunged, my doc wouldn't approve neupogen and reduced my interferon instead, much to my chagrin.  I've also referred to this site and referred this site to others who needed something complementary.  Because of their reputation, I have felt secure in using this site as a reference when looking for alternatives when traditional medicine has been insufficient.

http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/11570.cfm

Going forward, it would be nice to see the use of an integrated medicine approach in the treatment of Hep C.  Neither one nor the other has ALL the answers for EVERY person but together, they provide MORE answers than one alone can provide under various circumstances, to my mind.

The challenge is in having access to sufficient and accurate information and data and being able to explore and investigate and have access to those things we feel are best for us. We need to know what's out there, why to rule it out or why to include it.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on this one.  I see no benefit to arguing one over the other or anyone trying to force one over the other.  I see more benefit in applying the best of both where necessary.  
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Number of cancer survivors millions

Number of cancer survivors that won 7 tours de France 1

How dare anyone compare Hep C to cancer.  
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There is a benefit to trying to point out that frauds like Lloyd are FRAUDS because it enables a person to learn that the ONLY way to get rid of their hep is by REAL medication and not sick, money gaining crap that will not extend their life in any way.

After watching two friends who did not treat and did try to maanage it holistically I'll tell you I'm damn glad I treated and dont have to worry about that.

12,000 a year is nothing to sneeze at.

I always enjoy when people were cured of Hep via SOC meds later on say how great supplements and stuff are. I mean if they are that efficient why'd you get cured on the other meds?
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"Minimize the disease hope it goes away, hope you don't need a liver transplant, and hope you don't die.  GO FOR IT.  I'll take my chances with SOC.  And you can do your thing.  I "hope" no one dies because you "calmed" them down and led them to believe they won't die from liver disease."

You just finished treatment as I did. What if you find out it did not work? You treat again and it does not work, and again. You find out you one of the few who are treatment intolerant. Are you not going to look at other options? The Hippie method may be you only option. I have a friend whom is treatment intolerant; he has been told he most likely will never clear the virus. He has had Hep C for 25+ years G1 Stage 2 no progression for the past 5 years. He lives a very healthy lifestyle and believes 100% in the Hippie method for his non progression.

For some people there is only one option and that is not SOC.
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Well what happens to this person when they go back and have another biopsy in five years and they are now stage 3/4 - do they just continue to hope and take vitamins?

Seriously we aren't talking about treating a stage 0 person with the meds I assume that most people are intelligent enough to realize we are talking about latter stage progressed people just ignoring it and hoping and praying that it doesn't progress further.

Let's hope for him he follows up with biopsies and doens't bury his head in the sand until it's just too late.
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Well said....lets not forget that for Geno 1"s  that currently , approx. only 45-50% of people clear with SOC. Hopfully in the near future those odds will rise in our favor.however in the meantime those people that have failed tx.for one reason or another, some mulitiple times,need to do whatever they can to still have hope.

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Mr. Woodsman have you had a recent biopsy do you know what level of liver damage you have?
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"I always enjoy when people were cured of Hep via SOC meds later on say how great supplements and stuff are. I mean if they are that efficient why'd you get cured on the other meds? "

NOBODY is saying do not do treatment and ONLY do alternatives.  Point that out please where that is being suggested.  Otherwise, simply stop making misleading statements.

What THIS person who was NOT on SOC meds who WAS on a clinical trial that went very wrong and had treatment ended prematurely and is VERY fortunate to have SVR in spite of it IS saying.....is that it's not only about our own selves.    

It's about the other people who did NOT get SVR on their trial or otherwise - it's about my friends on the forum, my friends in my community, the people in my support group in my area and anybody in the whole world frankly, where treatment didn't work, who are waiting out the new meds OR who cannot do treatment either because they've advanced to cirrhosis or have other health issues that mean they can't do treatment.....need to avail themselves of any other options that are out there in the absence of the ability to do treatment or while waiting between treatments.

It's really very very simple.  Alternatives are the ONLY option for those people who cannot do treatment at this time, or ever, for whatever their situation.  Anybody denying someone the opportunity to explore those options is standing in the way of someone doing whatever they can to prolong their lives.
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Please read latest news on non-interferon medications that are coming up in the pipeline.

Otherwise, simply stop making misleading statements. "

You did not only interferon and riba but a trial drug as well........certainly at some point trying to find a way to cure rather than just ignore the disease was important to you so I hardly believe my statements are misleading in any form.  Hello Kettle?

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Oh by the way please PROVIDE any real hard DATA to show that ANY of these supplements actually PROLONG a persons LIFE.
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Hard to show that, it's true. On the other hand there's plenty of data showing that if you're a cirrhotic G1 non-responder you are wasting your time and life energy by plying your body with more ifn. So what would you advise? Wait quietly and hope?
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Well maybe then it's time to PRAY instead.
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This is beginning to be a waste of time.  

"You did not only interferon and riba but a trial drug as well........certainly at some point trying to find a way to cure rather than just ignore the disease was important to you so I hardly believe my statements are misleading in any form.  Hello Kettle? "

I repeat...nobody is talking about ignoring the disease.  Anyone looking into alternatives is dealing directly with the disease and trying to combat it with whatever is at their disposal when treatment fails for them as it does in over 50% of Geno 1's, for example.  This isn't about me at all, since I'm very fortunate to be SVR and while at Stage 1.  This is about the ones still aiming for SVR and those who can't do treatment.

Anyone looking at alternatives is doing quite the opposite of hiding their head in the sand and that's an unfair assessment of those folks, in my opinion.  I think some of those folks are among the most courageous and brave I know because they face their HCV head on and fight with everything they've got.  It takes alot more effort, energy, work and courage to continue to research and try potential adjuncts when the data is far less available than it is for pharmaceuticals and you have to keep your hopes and spirit up in the face of more difficult odds than others who were fortunate to get that golden SVR.
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"Oh by the way please PROVIDE any real hard DATA to show that ANY of these supplements actually PROLONG a persons LIFE."

I think I'll just quote from Sloan-Kettering Cancer Centre's site on their opinion on the value of alternatives - both on quality of life and as an integrative medicine.  And if I'm going to pray, I think it will be "God, let there be something like this for HCV also."  Thankfully SOME research has been done so that we know milk thistle is a help.  Research is being done at universities in Canada on these things in regards to HCV and hopefully it continues and spreads so that the great work being done for cancer patients at places like MSKCC can one day be translated over to HCV.

http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/1990.cfm

"Additional scientific evaluation of alternative and complementary therapies is needed. Scientific scrutiny has been increasingly applied in recent years. Some avid proponents maintain that it is unnecessary to study unconventional therapies; that their longevity and popularity provide adequate "proof" of validity. But how do we really know when a treatment works? We know only after it has been scientifically tested and found to be more effective than doing nothing, and at least as effective as other therapies. Comparisons are crucial and feasible -- and they help tell us whether a therapy can pose any danger to our health. Anecdotal reports are not adequate.

Thankfully, the burgeoning interest in alternative and complementary therapies has been accompanied by a growing interest in studying them properly. The quality of research in this area can and must be equivalent to any scientific study. The public needs and has a right to know whether healing methods, conventional or unconventional, fulfill proponent promises.

The Office of Alternative Medicine (OAM) was established at the National Institutes of Health by Congressional mandate in 1992. Its stated purpose is to investigate unconventional medical practices. The OAM has been renamed the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) in recognition of the significant distinctions between complementary and alternative therapies and in response to the public's call for intensified research. NCCAM supports complementary and alternative medicine research centers, most of which are based at major universities.

Our Research Program
The Integrative Medicine Service research program has two major components:

Quality of Life Studies
Quality of life studies address the ability of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center's Integrative Medicine services to relieve pain and other symptoms. Research currently underway or under development includes studies of acupuncture for fatigue, shortness of breath, hot flashes, nausea, and pain. We will also initiate a project to look at music therapy's benefits in the recovery room. In addition, we are working with Memorial Sloan-Kettering's Pain and Palliative Care Service to construct a controlled trial of the benefits of massage therapy for terminally ill patients.

Botanical Therapies
Research suggests that some botanicals may have important benefits against cancer. Our botanicals research program, The Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center Research Center for Botanical Immunomodulators, in collaboration with the Institute of Chinese Medicine, in Hong Kong, will systematically investigate immune-modulating botanical supplements, their composition, and mechanisms of action. The research projects will be carried out by investigators from Memorial Sloan-Kettering, The Rockefeller University, and Weill Medical College of Cornell University. The clinical implications of the Center's work are comprehensive, including cancer prevention and treatment, management of treatment complications, health maintenance, and survivorship

All Integrative Medicine research related to quality of life studies and botanical therapies is conducted in collaboration with senior laboratory and clinical scientists at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center and the Sloan-Kettering Institute.

Please see our clinical trials listing for more information."
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Yes I'll treat again if I should fail.  I had my one month I'm still UND so that's a good post tx start.  But not home yet.  I'm sure alternative meds can help your liver live a better life.  The problem for me is when people say they are a "cure".

I needed to start treating immediatly as I was stage 3 grade 3.  There simplt is no cure for Hep C other than the drugs made by the "suits".  As we are both patients of Dr. Everson's we know we are under the care of a pretty prominant Hepatologist.  He doesn't advocate herbal remedies, so I have to roll with that.  To each their own I though.
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"It takes a lot more effort, energy, work and courage to continue to research and try potential adjuncts when the data is far less available than it is for pharmaceuticals and you have to keep your hopes and spirit up in the face of more difficult odds than others who were fortunate to get that golden SVR."

Very nicely put. Those without tx options have to rely much, much more on friends and their experiences and fiddling with diets and self-diagnosing and self-treating, all the things that could be addressed so nicely on a website like MedHelp if there's was a little more room for it.
If your not doing tx nobody here cheers for you if you cut your alt down to double digits or manage to decrease your viral load and increase your energy levels.
It's like "yeah, big deal, you're never gonna make svr so why bother?"
All the sharing of info has to be done via pm's like some kind of clandestine cult, coz when it comes out in the open the well-meaning well-intentioned folk always want you to know that SOC is the only cure and don't want any new guys to be mislead on that.
Well that's nice, and thank you, and  I know a lot of folk know that SOC, like Jesus, is the only way, and you are entitled to your say, but it would demonstrate real compassion to allow the misguided, unfortunate, doomed non treaters a space to discuss their stuff too.
We also get violent mood swings too.
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The name of this website is Med Help ... Med can be , and is practiced many ways , Help is self explanatory to those of you with compassion in your hearts  ...

There is nothing in the site rules here that prohibit asking for information about trying to help the HCV infected liver maintain function without using SOC in this forum ..

Who of you here helped build this website ? Who helps with time or $$ to help maintain this great site ?  We are all riding the MedHelp bus for free , at no charge,

Look at all the different data basis MedHelp provides it's users for no charge ... unfortunately in this HCV forum there are no doctors ... but many of the other forums there are doctors who take part in the forum .... How great is that !

Why do some of the members here feel the need to verbally attack folks at any mention of trying to .... help the infected liver .... not "cure" HCV  ?

Is achieving SVR  considered a "cure" ? ... that term today is still being debated by many HCV specialist doctors ... not even close to 100% of HCV specialist doctors agree with using the term "cure" if SVR @ 6 months after EOT is attained ... don't want to believe it ... you'll find many HCV doctors opinion's differ on this ... but, only if you look ....

From the lack of compassion and understanding of many members here to others in less fortunate situation's, maybe the name of this HCV forum should be changed ...

HCV - Do it my way or it's the Hi-way .......

Some of you who have been here for a long time really should update your data base's ... what was valid 6yrs. or even 2 yrs.. ago is not necessarily valid today ...

If you don't agree with someone ... that's your right ... to constantly bash the less fortunate non-responders or relapsers , or folks trying to wait for new meds who need .... HELP trying to maintain liver health ...... & force your "expert SOC only opinions" down everyone's throat is not a HELP to anyone ....

I guess in this day and age ... some folks never learned or have just forgotten the saying..

"If you don't have anything supportive to say ... don't say anything at all"

Regards

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"Well maybe then it's time to PRAY instead"

Ouch!!  My prayers went unanswered; or maybe the answer was "no."   I'd like to believe it was "not yet," and try to hang in there to fight another day.

I'm sure that you didn't mean to sound so hostile, but that one hurt.
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I have never posted here before but I have been reading this forum for a long time and I have noticed something strange.  Now and then someone comes on here and posts about some alternative medicine or supplement regimen or snake oil (Lloyd Wright for example).  Then some people reply with information that SOC is the only clinically proven way to cure hepatitis c.  Then a couple of people, usually the same ones, come on to shout down the people who have posted factual information about the proven cure.  One poster in particular goes on and on about how people should be allowed to post about this or that.  Well, it looks to me like they ARE allowed to post whatever they like, and they do it all the time.  But when someone points out that only SOC cures hep c they get a whole bunch of accusations hurled at them and they get told not to "force their opinions down everyone's throat."  Well the same could be said to the people who insist that it is mean or rude or unkind to point out facts that someone might consider unpleasant.

I don't see any SOC supporters bashing anybody, but they sure do take a bashing from the crowd who cannot stand to have anyone disagree with them.

If you don't want to do SOC or you can't do SOC, fine, but why does it offend you when people point out that SOC is the only clinically proven cure?  A couple of people who object to seeing this fact (and it IS a fact no matter how much anybody may dislike it) post so many many very long posts that I wonder if they have time to do anything else.

As far as I'm concerned, saying "If you don't have anything supportive to say ... don't say anything at all" is another way of saying "how dare you tell me something I don't want to hear."
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Amen!
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Medhelp is a for profit website it is supported through selling advertising.

No one is saying liver maintenance is a bad idea.  The point is that L Wright claims to have a cure for Hep C, and he has never proven it.

As far as the cure debate goes.  When a test measures to <2 you may have 1 copy left this is true, but you also may have 0.  My guess is this.  My VL was 1,300,000 to start now it measures less UND.  Is it logical to conclude the meds killed 1,299,999 and not the last one ?
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#WINNER

+1
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Of course, hope the best for you .....

You must be mistaken , I have never mentioned L. Wright in any of my posts ...  

Logical to read your report like that ,of course ....

A guarantee for 100% of patients to remain SVR , at this time ... unfortunately not ... there are apx. 3-5% of patients who relapse after previously being pronounced clear and SVR ....

There is nothing about this virus that is predictable ... I don't like it either , but , at least I take the time and energy to look at the current data available , good or bad ...

Are you saying if someone who receives a < 2 EOT PCR & reaches 6 month or 1 year SVR ... they should not continue do yearly PCR tests after that ? Up to you , but it wouldn't be a wise choice .





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#WINNER

+1

I dont need to post ten paragraphs to say THANK YOU. Great post.
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The original poster mentioned L Wright.  I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.  Sorry if it came across that way.  Cheers to good health.
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Welcome to the forum ... I see you have been here since Feb. 2011 .....

I guess thats a long time to some folks ... it also seems you have not read all the posts in this thread carefully ....

If you for example , take the time to read carefully Muraiji's post ....  the one before mine, you might read and be able to feel his discomfort to introduce or look for idea's on trying to help his liver through other than SOC Tx, which he tried, but, could not SVR ... If you have been here a while you would know that he's a very nice guy and has been a good contributer here ..

Quite sad that even he, a good contributer, supportive to others and a gifted writer .....  is uncomfortable to ask for Help or opinions here in the MedHelp HCV forum,  ... now that his Tx over and he did not SVR ......

there are many like him who would like to ask questions , but are , uncomfortable knowing the responses they might receive ...


I'm 17 wks. into SOC Tx, Your comment of my position being against SOC Tx is not valid.... You obviously misread my statements  ....

There are no hidden meanings in what i write... nothing alluded to ... like it ... don't like it .... or maybe you just don't get it ?
I guess in this day and age ... some folks never learned or have just forgotten the saying..

"If you don't have anything supportive to say ... don't say anything at all"


This forum is a great help to many including myself while on, or considering Tx , however ,

On the subject of .... after Tx null response, relapse , or trying to maintain liver health, mutated virus from future Tx failures etc.,  when SOC is not an option for everybody  ... there needs to be more compassion and understanding on this subject here ..








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No worries James, Cheers and best of health to you too.
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Is there a point at which you'd stop getting annual PCRs?
And do you know whether your insurance will pay for annual annual PCRs - and, if so,  for how long?

BTW: Regarding relapse rates.

Conclusions: Sustained virological response to PEG-IFN and ribavirin is maintained in 99% of patients during long-term follow-up. Late virological relapse occurred within 1 year after SVR and, from a clinical perspective, patients can be considered cured of infection after this period.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/716305

There is solid evidence that patients who reach this target will remain virus free during long-term follow-up, with a risk of late HCV recurrence of <2% in published series using the most stringent criteria for assessing the virological response during and after antiviral therapy.
http://hepatitiscresearchandnewsupdates.blogspot.com/2011/01/impact-of-sustained-virological.html

This large analysis evaluated the durability of an SVR in 997 patients who have been followed for 5 years after their final treatment. The SVR rate at Year 5 was 99% for patients with HCV genotype 1, 2, or 3 who achieved an SVR 24 weeks after completion of treatment. The likelihood of relapse was < 1%, as only 8 patients developed detectable HCV RNA during follow-up. Because of the heterogeneous nature and timing of these studies, pretreatment samples were not available for genotyping. Only 1 patient who relapsed during follow-up had a pretreatment sample and a long-term follow-up treatment sample, and that subject was found to be reinfected with a different strain of HCV.
http://www.clinicaloptions.com/Hepatitis/Conference%20Coverage/Barcelona%202007/Tracks/Updates%20in%20HCV/Updates/Pages/Page%208.aspx

"Durability of SVR: Ninety-one SVR patients had follow-up HCV R NA testing performed an average of 78.6 ± 15.9 months (range: 22.1-99.6 months) after achieving SVR, and 90 of the 91 (99%) had undetectable HCV RNA in serum"
http://www.natap.org/2010/HCV/082910_01.htm

Mike
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Only 1 patient who relapsed during follow-up had a pretreatment sample and a long-term follow-up treatment sample, and that subject was found to be reinfected with a different strain of HCV."

Since there are no pretreatment samples on the other small following who did not keep SVR one would see that more than likely they were reinfected and did NOT lose SVR.

Please stop implying that SVR is not durable. if you dont want to try the new meds and reach for a cure and prefer to take vitamins that is certainly up to the individual. It's just not very intelligent in my opinion. See how much a L Wright can do for you.
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I have been holding and holding my tongue because in these discussions with you, I get absolutely nowhere.  As my husband is a "not very intelligent" 3 x nonresponder that gave his all to clear with SOC and stupidly resorted to HR's tremendously effective protocol for improving liver function...
I read your posts. I felt tremendous  stress and suddenly remembered an article that popped up on yahoo this morning which talked about some home remedies that many have found effective.  One of them was for stress induced tension headaches.  It said to lay a pencil horizontally in your mouth and hold it lightly with your teeth without clenching and it would relieve the clenched jaw thereby alleviating the headache.  The pencil is in my mouth as we speak and I actually do feel some relief although my source of stress remains.
Ev
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My profile only shows how long I have been a member.  I have been reading this board since 2006, and to me that is a long time.  I read your posts carefully and all the others too.  I didn't misread anything.  I did not say you are against SOC.  What I said was pretty clear, but maybe you missed something or didn't get it.  What I am saying is that the people who post here should be ready for some to contradict and disagree with them.  It is not a private club, its an internet forum.  You have to expect that somebody might post things you don't agree with.  To me its no worse them disagreeing with you than you disagreeing with them.

I wish everybody luck with treatment or to manage their disease somehow.  Everybody, including you and me.
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Once you really get rolling fighting this disease you will find that there is no such thing
as "pharma vs holistic hep c treatment" because we all have principally the same goal.

A forum member here once told me she would eat horse sh*t if it would help getting
rid of the disease. It kind of stuck me.
Not to say that I advocate manure as the next cure......

b
44 of 48+
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Evangeline,

Good luck to you and joe and hep tech and all of that.  I am entitled to believe as an 'intelligent' person that there is only one CURE for SOC currently however there will be new meds in coming shortly that will work even better.  I would advocate someone take them rather than high doses of vitamin C and hope for a good outcome taking Lloyd Wright fake supplements.

I would hold out for the 75/80% chance of being cured rather than a zero %-to me that seems pretty obvious at this point.
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Nobody said it would cure!  HR sure didn't imply such a thing. You can't lump HR's supplements in with Lloyd Wright and the BHT man.  HR's name shouldn't even be in the same sentence. HR is a highly specialized Dr. in this field.  Lloyd and Oscar are not.  I don't mind hearing what they have to say but I chose the recommendations of the super-brain liver specialist. It certainly doesn't seem like an illogical choice to me.  If you can 't have the cure, go for the next best thing.
  If you were a paraplegic and a Dr. said he could not totally fix your legs, but he could give you something that could allow you to hobble around enough to  live a better life, wouldn't you want to take it?  .
By the way, my name doesn't have an " E." at the end.  Someone else uses the same name but with the added "E".  An old post popped up from the other person with a similar name , and I don't want to be mistaken as the same. Not a big deal  but I just wanted to clear that up.
Wish we could see eye to eye on this.  Your stance puts people like Joe out in the cold.  It isn't like Joe is a tiny minority...there are a lot of people like him.  If we have to
wait for 100% proof, it won't matter for  us anymore.  
Ev
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Good question ... When do you stop getting PCR's ?

As far as insurance paying  , Tx etc ... I and others have no experience as we pay out of pocket for Tx & testing ...

Would you stop because your insurance would not cover the test ? Personal choice ...

1- 15 yr. associate of mine (prior G-1) still does annual tests 13yrs. after his second try was successful in 1998 ... another close associate of 20yrs. prior G-2 still does annual tests 6 yrs. after clearing .... both pay out of pocket .... you figure it out...

The following copied from this report you provided ...

The other one with 90 patients is too few patients for a determination IMO ....

http://hepatitiscresearchandnewsupdates.blogspot.com/2011/01/impact-of-sustained-virological.html

Recently, Welker and Zeuzem (2) reviewed available data on the rates of late virological relapse in hepatitis C patients treated with IFN (or PEG-IFN) therapy with a sustained response based on the 24 week off-therapy rule. The authors identified 44 studies, including more than 4200 patients who had been followed up to 108 months after the end of therapy. Overall, late virological relapses were rare (3%).

A 3% late virological relapse rate .....  I wrote .... 3-5% .... it depends on what studies you read ...

The point being ... there is a chance of late virology relapse ... does anyone like this ... of course not ... it is however a reality of this unpredictable viral infection  .... also , if you take the time to look ... you will find that 100% of HCV specialists do not agree on using the term cure for SVR ... when 100% do agree ... then i will too ....

Best of health to you

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"I don't see any SOC supporters bashing anybody"

Take time and search the archives with an open mind and you will find this happens almost every time the word "alternative" is mentioned here ...

This is your statements to me ... inferring I don't support SOC Tx...

"If you don't want to do SOC or you can't do SOC, fine, but why does it offend you when people point out that SOC is the only clinically proven cure?"


What offends me are a 1 size fits all response to a sub-group of SOC Tx intolerant folks asking for help who do not receive support ...


NYgirl answers to Evangelin .... who's husband is 3 times SOC intolerant  ...

Good luck to you and joe and hep tech and all of that.  I am entitled to believe as an 'intelligent' person that there is only one CURE for SOC currently however there will be new meds in coming shortly that will work even better.  I would advocate someone take them rather than high doses of vitamin C and hope for a good outcome taking Lloyd Wright fake supplements.

Evangelin never mentions L. Wright or Vit C ... Yet NYgirls response mentions that ... is this kind of response really necessary ? Is it a Help to her 3 times SOC intolerant husband ??

There is a large subgroup of HCV infected folks...  asking for Help,  who CANNOT , for whatever reason , take the SOC Tx ...

Don't those posters here understand the words .... Cannot take it ... It does not work , The Sx are intolerable ......  what can I do now ?

Instead of these posters .....  just saying nothing ..... and ...... not involving themselves in the discussion , very easy to do , just don't get involved in the post ....

They say the same thing over and over .... SOC is the cure , or the new miracle drugs will work .....

Most of the null responders , relapsers and Sx intolerant ,

Know SOC is the only Tx that may kill the virus first hand ..... as they have tried ....

So, the continuously repeated same SOC answer is the only way ... response to their quest for help ....  is not any Help and non productive to those who simply cannot do ...  or tolerate this Tx , or afford it and are looking for ways to help the liver  ....  

There are many herbs that do seem to help , not Cure , but Help the liver ,  .... this site is called MedHelp , not MedCure ....

Where is the compassion and understanding for their SOC intolerant unique situations ?

Thats what offends me ... since you asked ....  
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"Unfortunately today the only treatment that  IS clinically proven to eradicate HCV  is the combination tx.of  Inf/Riba. "

hi willbb, how do you arrive to this conclusion? to make sure i understand, are you only referring to our western system or are you including all medical systems? when u say "eradicate" do you mean that the viral load went down to 0 and virus was undetectable or? not trying to be in any sense sarcastic by the way... reason i am asking is because i was under the impression that there are actually official records  on cases of patients with hep c who were able to get their viral loads down to zero (undetectable). these patients were treated with chinese medicine only.
 i will also try to get copies from a friend and chinese acupuncturist and scan the docs for anyone interested. in the meantime, some of these docs might be available to the public on specific medical sites.
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soory for the late reply. clarification coming up: sorry yes it was confusing. i got some terminology mixed up it looks like. got to say that i am still trying to figure out where my hep B and hep C stand in all the jargon of my lab results... another world.... anyway
with her homeopathy: and this is what she told me after i called her:
viral load decreased. right, she still has hep c though
last CT and fibrosure shows that her fibrosis has regressed. still present but less severe

and most importantly to her before her therapy, the symptoms were so severe, she was physically and mentally impotent. had to stop her work unable to function.  since then, she reports feeling with energy, no symptoms and able to get her life back. in france (where i am from), homeopathy has become a popular and respected method. i personally do not respond to it so i would not be able to go further than what my friend has shared about her experience. as background, she is 60 now, contracted the virus around her 20's via IV drugs. partied a few more years but got cleaned before she turned 30. the symptoms started to show mid 40's. now re lupus all i know is that it is the reason why she cannot do interferon. 

PS i realize that i omitted to ask her about length of tx. i would assume over a long period but need to confirm with her. to be continued
:)
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"There is nothing CLINICALLY proven to cure Hep C other than the known drug therapy we have today.  That is a fact."

hi again trish77, i guess i have the same question i had with willbb, how do you support this statement above? which academic, medical or scientific organization claims that fact? again, not trying to be confrontational... i am honestly surprised that many posts are so categorical about the existence of only one tx that can "eradicate" hep c. as i explain to willbb, i was told that records cite patients viral load down to 0 after treatment using chinese medicine only.
i will make it my mission to find some docs on the subject.
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I think it's pretty likely that inf/riba treatments are the only thing that's going to get the job done with any predictability right now - I mean no one has proven that shoving a live herring up your arse won't work - but my money's on a good time without any viral clearance on that one.

I also think it's pretty likely that you can slow fibrosis progression with lifestyle choices and supplements (f'r'example milk thistle is pretty widely accepted as effective, and PPC has a damn good chance of delivering benefit). Genetics come into play of course.

We've had a couple people here who, whether due to the supplements they take or blind luck, have virtually no fibrosis at all,  after many, many years.

Inf treatment ain't for everyone. But it sure is a nice option to have on the table. This need not be such a dividing issue, me thinks.
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Nice summation.  Agree with your conclusion.  Ditto on the herring...just so many fish in the sea though. :)
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I don't understand.  Why should people not get involved in the discussion?  They say what they think, you say what you think and so on and so on.  I don't see the problem with that.
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Some avid proponents maintain that it is unnecessary to study unconventional therapies; that their longevity and popularity provide adequate "proof" of validity.

I know this is out of context, taken from a paragraph of one of Trish77 posts but this is very much the thrust of my original question. I'd like to read anything (docs) you may find.
I'd imagine those 1000 year old cultures would'nt consider western medicine as traditional as we like to call it. The Hep c virus doesn't make the cultural distinction either way. For me it's all about trying to educate and then descide.

Thanks to all for your continued efforts.

James (theewoodman)
  

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Avatar_m_tn
  I said this earlier in this thread:

"Unfortunately today the only treatment that  IS clinically proven to eradicate HCV  is the combination tx.of  Inf/Riba. "  

And you have asked me this:

  "hi willbb, how do you arrive to this conclusion? "

   Not being in the medical field I personally have conducted no studies to arrive at this,however like most of us here I  read and do as much research as possible to try and stay up to date and so far  I found no data that I trust to belive otherwise.


  If you have proof of another cure that I have not found I would appreciate your citing the studies,trial #"s etc for my perusal, as I am always interested in what others have found.

I stated that it was "unfortunate "that this is the only known treatment,as I am one of the approx.50-55% of folks with Geno 1 that this treatment  "so far" did not work for ,and I currently take a number of  natural products(like I have for many decades) to try and stay as healthy as possible until something else comes along that  I trust will work for me to eradicate the virus   ...or to a least to a sensitivity of UND

   All the best

WILL.



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hi will, thanks for the feedback. the studies that i refer to are on patients using traditional chinese medicine. According to two different acupuncturists/chinese medicine specialists that I met, there are cases (documented) where within a group of patients with Hep C, several were able to get their load down to zero by end of treatment. will definitely keep you and everybody else updated by posting anything i find here. BTW, I am same genotype as you and understand the challenge. haven't gone through treatment yet... not sure what i am going to do yet... not against Inf/Riba but not convinced either. I am doing the biopsy today. so, first thing first... :)
Take good care of yourself,
Nikita
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Hi,

You said there are documented cases of people using Chinese medicine, and their viral load was lowered to zero.

What viral load test measures to zero ?
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". According to two different acupuncturists/chinese medicine specialists that I met..."
This is what is known as 'anecdotal evidence'.
No reputable chinese medical practitioner I've met has ever claimed a cure or a 'zero' viral load. On the contrary, any such claims would make me suspicious that they were even competent to practice. And I've used TCM before, during and after tx.
Let us know when you get that documentation.
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Here's an example of backing up your statements with clinical studies;

Hep C is rarely if ever transmitted sexually.  Please see the study below.

http://www.hepatitis-central.com/hcv/hepatitis/notransmission.html

Documented cases of Chinese medicine lowering VL to zero (when there is NO test available that measures to zero) are sad at best. I want to see a clinical study that proves this.  
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Nikita:

Good luck on your biopsy today...Lets hope that your degree of liver damage is not as yet to the degree that you have to worry about the Tx. regime you choose.

  I would also like to add to my last post to you that I have undergone acupuncture tx. many ,many times in the past for sprains.strains etc.from athletic injuries ,and in all the viral load tests I have had over the years,not once did my numbers come down,as a result of these treatments.

Who knows,maybe they were sticking those needles in all the wrong spots  :)

WILL
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Here's another study to back up the first one.

http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v99/n5/full/ajg2004164a.html
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freenikita, perhaps some of the information in this article is what you have encountered.

http://www.itmonline.org/arts/hepcstrat.htm

If you can get all the way through this article - long but lots of information and a good read - I found that it's written in a very balanced way and definitely food for thought.  There are a number of studies cited here with their results and finally concluding in the hope that further clinical trials will eventually be conducted to provide the necessary proof to establish an accurate level of efficacy.  The article is older (1998) however I found it balanced, comprehensive, interesting and cites a number of references.  

Examples of statements:

"MONITORING TREATMENT OUTCOMES
The concept of cure in a case of an infectious disease, like hepatitis C, includes the complete elimination of the virus from the body, not just limitation of its action (remission). For this concept to be applied, one requires the modern knowledge of, and testing for, viral particles, something that has become common place only during the past few years. The PCR (polymerase chain reaction) test for hepatitis C viral RNA is, therefore, the current standard for measuring the status of the disease, and the determination method of a true cure. The test measures the "viral load," or the quantity of virus in the bloodstream. In someone who is cured, the viral load should be undetectable (technically, one cannot measure tiny amounts of virus, so one can only say below the limit of detection) and then continue to remain undetectable in the absence of any virus suppressing therapies for several years. At this time, it is not known whether hepatitis C can be cured according to this strict standard, partly because there hasn't been enough time (since testing was developed) to determine whether any treatment has a long-term successful result."

"CHINESE MEDICAL ANALYSIS OF HEPATITIS C
Physicians in China were alerted to hepatitis C mainly through the international medical literature. Due to the lesser availability of funds for testing compared to the situation for American and European doctors, Chinese physicians primarily investigate hepatitis C and its treatment in patients who are notably symptomatic for the disease and are seeking relief of symptoms. By contrast, many tens of thousands of Americans with asymptomatic disease may seek treatment simply because the virus showed up after routine examination indicated mildly elevated liver enzymes. Because Chinese doctors mainly deal with symptomatic patients and because testing of these patients is also limited, the analysis of symptoms and the alleviation of symptoms are a primary concern. For traditional doctors, the fact that the virus now involved is "C" rather than "B" has little significance in relation to treatment. Rather, the important factors are the symptom manifestation and the fact, known from modern science, that a virus is involved."

"REPORTS OF EFFECTIVE THERAPY FOR HEPATITIS C
The medical reporting of treatments for hepatitis C in China has a number of flaws. Sometimes, the therapies (the herbal formulas) are not specified or only partially specified. Other times, the outcomes of treatment are unclear. Therefore, one should interpret the reports with some care."

"Oxymatrine was selected for study because it had previously been shown to inhibit viruses (including hepatitis B), enhance cellular immune functions, and reduce liver fibrosis. Sophora subprostrata has been an ingredient in many hepatitis B formulas (given orally in decoction form). Sophora-root-extract injection has been used experimentally and clinically for a variety of disorders at least since 1976. Usual dosages are 200-400 mg per day, though up to 800 mg is given by injection in two divided doses. The tablet of sophora extract has also been administered; an example of the dosage used is 1.5 grams each time (presumably about 20% alkaloids, thus 450 mg), three times daily.

Oxymatrine injections are not an option for treatment outside China, as this would require medical application of an unapproved drug. However, oxymatrine is available for oral administration. The Institute for Traditional Medicine has begun clinical use of oral oxymatrine in tablet form (sophora root extract, 20% oxymatrine, 2% matrine, 1 gram per tablet; three tablets per day for 600 mg oral oxymatrine) as an herbal supplement, not a drug therapy."

"SUMMARY OF CHINESE WORK
It has been said that Chinese medical journals only publish positive results. In the case of hepatitis C treatments, that appears to be the case thus far. However, it is clear that the positive results claimed are within the realm of possibility: viral inhibition measured by PCR tests shows results that are comparable to Western medical treatment, and tests showing antibody conversion or liver enzyme normalization are consistent with reports for hepatitis B that have been emerging from the Orient (mainland China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Japan) for several years."

"Until more clinical work with hepatitis C and Chinese herbs is carried out in the United States, it may be difficult to convince medical practitioners and patients to try this method. Because the herbs are non-toxic, some patients may wish to utilize this therapy in place of, or in addition to, treatment by interferon. It is reasonable to begin collecting information from such patients to provide case histories in an effort to eventually develop a well-designed clinical trial."

Trish


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To:all

  This is a much more recent article....



Oxymatrine is a substance found in sophora roots. In a comparison of oxymatrine versus vitamins in one study, nearly half of 43 patients had reduced their viral load to non-detectable levels, compared to only one patient taking vitamins, researchers at the University of Shanghai in China reported.17

However, while liver enzyme levels were higher in the treatment group after two months of treatment, they were generally the same between both groups after 3 months, the researchers reported.

In the end, Coon and Frist "identified several promising complementary therapies", but definitive conclusions couldn't be drawn because of questionable designs of the studies they had researched.

"More research is warranted to establish the role of these and other therapies in the treatment of hepatitis C," they wrote.


  
  
  



  

    View Older Articles   Back to Top   www.natap.org  

  



  
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Of course everyone should take part in a discussion ... if they have something worthwhile supportive & focused on the subject to share ... a matter of interpretation of what is worthwhile or focused ....

The reality is this ... for G-1-4 ... apx. 50% on SOC Tx achieve SVR ... What about the other 50% ?? ... there is added hope with the new drugs , however , as far as the clinical trials show .... for G2-3 the new meds will not help ....

Those drugs will still leave apx. 40% of G1 Tx experienced patients unable to achieve SVR , and carry a big risk for those folks ... after Tx of carrying a mutated virus ...

They are not a Magic Pill ... as some here contend .. I do wish they were ....

When the posts of some are Always Negative and many times Insulting to those who have tried SOC and Cannot clear the virus .... or to those choosing to wait for further developments in Tx options .... looking for liver support information .....

It disturbs my sense of humanity & compassion ..

By the way , I was surprised to receive 3 very nice PM's in the last few days from folks who are in that very unfortunate position ... Thanking me for trying to help support their unique position ....

And I know as a fact that there are many more MH members who are put off by these Always Negative , Ill worded, non supportive members .....

Not 1 or 2 members here , but many complain using PM's ....

You would not know that ....... I will not share those as it would not be respectful to those who wrote them or to this site  ... believe it or don't ... up to you ..

I hope this helps you to understand why I think posters that are , non supportive, not focused on the subject , and ,many who's data bases even on the subject of SOC Tx are out dated ...

Only bring more stress and add aggression on the very worthwhile quest for information from the unfortunate 50% G1&4 , 20-30 % G2&3 HCV infected who do not respond to SOC .. or someone who just wants to wait for future Tx options and is trying to find a way to Help support their liver until that time .............

Those folks , in my opinion , should keep their destructive , out dated and very opinionated closed minded comments to themselves ..... unfortunately i think that would be as hard for them as clearing HCV ..

Let the other members here who do care, try to Help those who need it .....

Since you asked .....



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I don't see where anybody referred to treatment as a magic pill.  I question some of the statistics you quote.  But I would never try to keep you out of the discussion.  I think you should go ahead and state your opinions, even if I think your posts are not helpful, even when I think you are wrong.  Even if I think a person is destructive, opinionated or closed minded, I think there is room here for everyones views.  I'm not threatened by someone disagreeing with me.  Who is to say who cares and who doesn't care.  Even if I don't find all the discussion helpful I bet there is someone out there who does.

Everyone should take part in the discussion.  Who is to say what is worthwhile?  Its so subjective.
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Head first/Tail first?
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AND To all active members here, and those  %50 of people where SOC is not working.  To change the subject slightly.  There is HOPE!    INF/RBV combined with Clinical trial drug BMS790053 killed my virus in a 24/48 week trial . The trial was for genotype 1 and 4, in 5 different countries. I have / had  G1a.  A trial is starting soon for G 2 and 3.    I was the 8th person to complete the 24 weeks and 7 people had VL <25 at week 4 and were Und at week 10, and continued that way till week 24. We are finished!   One person had a higher LV at week 4, but responding, so they have to do the full 48 weeks. That is the best results of any new drug I know about. This is just a heads up. The clinical data will come in time.     I looked into alternate / hippy care.    I despise some aspects of big PHARMA but decided to go that route anyway.  Four days with no DOPE now. YAHOO!  In the meantime ..Look after your precious liver!   Take Care ,Pedro
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Telaprevir works form G-2, but unfortunately G-3's are SOL.

http://www.natap.org/2009/EASL/EASL_13.htm
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I have had several send me personal messages to let me know that they also are using the Hep Tech supplements and are having really good results , even more impressive than Joe's. This is likely because their livers were less damaged to start and therefore easier to heal.  I wish they would share it publicly but the word I get is that they don't wish to be attacked.  Well, if you don't think we feel like we have been persecuted on Medhelp...you would be wrong. The only reason I have ever entered in to the strife, was in hopes that someone needing help as bad as Joe did, would benefit.
I took some time off from trying though as it was really beginning to disturb my peace.  Believe me, if there was anyway we could get Joe to SVR with a standard TX, we would.  He took everything approved and complied to the letter despite having very debilitating SX.  We went through it 3 times.  Trials have not been an option because practically none of them will take cirrhotics and his platelets and hgb have always stayed too low to get in a trial anyway.  Every SOC road was blocked so there was no choice but to take a detour.  It has returned Joe to a life worth living.  Why should others in this predicament be kept from knowing this?  
I know that Hep Tech is expensive but keep in mind that they have a compassionate relief program which lowers the cost for those with a low income and that is how we are able to keep Joe on it.  If I ever am unable to get the Hep Tech, I will just go back to buying HR's individual supplement suggestions from other discounted sources like Swanson Vitamins, I herb etc. but for now I am glad to be getting the quality and potency of the Hep Tech supps. and I have much less to do to try to figure it all out.  Joe has to swallow fewer pills , which he appreciates.
Ev
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No one is saying you shouldn't do what's best for your liver and your life.  If herbs or a diet change help take stress of your liver that is what we all want.  My liver is stage 3 HELLO !  Why wouldn't I want to cure it ?  Ya think I lived through 24 weeks of H$LL for fun ?

What people like me are saying is there is no documented case of SVR or a clinical study that proves SVR is attainable via "hippie" meds.

If you think 50% success is bad try 0%.

Of course we hope and pray for a better day, a positive attitude was crucial to me while on TX, but it didn't lead to UND.  Those nasty shots and pills did.


If you've got a clinical study you'd like to share that proves alternative meds erradicate HCV please share them.  
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I wouldn't go so far as to say the new meds will not work for G3 and I wouldn't be going around saying that G3's are " SOL".  The study you cite only covers the first 15 days of treatment and doesn't demonstrate SVR rates.  

Certainly this part of the data you've cited is not promising:

"In this study genotype 2 treatment naive patients achieved a mean 4 log reduction in viral load after 6 days on monotherapy with telaprevir. The triple combination of telaprevir + peg/RBV achieved a mean 5.3 log reduction in viral load at day 16. But genootype 3 patients only achieved a -.80 reduction in viral load so therapy for genotype 3 won't be pursued."

However, one can still SVR without getting that lovely RVR.   Telaprevir is not entirely without merit for G3's:

http://www.hivandhepatitis.com/2010_conference/easl/docs/0514_2010_b.html

Results:

Among genotype 2 patients, HCV viral load decreased dramatically in the telaprevir monotherapy, triple therapy, and standard therapy arms:
G2 telaprevir alone: -3.27 log by day 3 and -3.66 log by day 15;
G2 telaprevir/pegylated interferon/ribavirin: -4.03 log and -5.51 log, respectively;
G2 pegylated interferon/ribavirin: -2.04 log and -4.83 log, respectively.
However, fewer people in the telaprevir monotherapy arm went on to achieve sustained virological response (SVR) by 24 weeks after completing treatment:
G2 telaprevir alone: SVR 56%;
G2 telaprevir/pegylated interferon/ribavirin: SVR 100%;
G2 pegylated interferon/ribavirin: SVR 89%.

Among genotype 3 patients, HCV viral load decreased much less in the telaprevir monotherapy arm:
G3 telaprevir alone: -0.54 log by day 3 and -0.54 log by day 15;
G3 telaprevir/pegylated interferon/ribavirin: -3.05 log and -4.85 log, respectively;
G3 pegylated interferon/ribavirin: -2.38 log and -4.72 log, respectively.

Looking at genotype 3 patients, SVR rates were lower overall and did not diverge so much across the treatment arms:

G3 telaprevir alone: SVR 50%;
G3 telaprevir/pegylated interferon/ribavirin: SVR 67%;
G3 pegylated interferon/ribavirin: SVR 44%.

If I were Geno 3 and I could increase my odds of success by 23%, I'd at least be considering Telaprevir in the mix if I needed to treat sooner than later.  Certainly resistance issues need to be considered however it seems that Telaprevir for G3's is not entirely without merit.  I wouldn't classify an increase in SVR rates by 23 % as being SOL.  Certainly more challenging than the other Genotypes so far...but not quite as bleak as SOL.

Otherwise, R7126 shows very promising results so far for G3:

http://www.hepcassoc.org/news/article173.html

"In a late-breaker presentation at the 59th Annual Meeting of the American Association for the Study of Liver Diseases (AASLD 2008) last week in San Francisco, researchers reported the data on one such agent, Roche and Pharmasset's HCV polymerase inhibitor R7128, in prior non-responders with HCV genotypes 2 or 3. This represents one cohort in a larger study that also included genotype 1 patients."

"Results
• At week 4, 90% of patients receiving R7128 achieved RVR (HCV RNA  86%), similar to R7128 + [standard of care] in genotype 1 non-responders, with an acceptable side-effect profile."

"These high response rates in a difficult-to-treat patient population suggest that combination therapy featuring R7128 deserves further exploration in both treatment-naive and non-responsive genotype 2/3 patients with HCV," they concluded. "

G3's are far from the bleak picture of SOL that you're painting when it comes to Telaprevir and PI's in general.
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Part of my "Results" cut-and-paste disappeared...good results at 90% RVR and similar results for Geno 2 and 3!

"Results
• At week 4, 90% of patients receiving R7128 achieved RVR (HCV RNA < 15 IU/mL), compared with 60% of those receiving placebo.

• The mean decrease in HCV RNA was 5.0 log10 IU/mL in the R7128 arm compared with 3.7 log10 IU/mL in the placebo arm.

• Responses were similar for patients with genotype 2 and genotype 3.

• R7128 was well tolerated overall.

• No serious adverse events (AEs) were reported and there were no discontinuations due to AEs.

• AEs were similar in prevalence and severity to those previously reported with pegylated interferon + ribavirin alone.

• Laboratory safety assessments revealed no grade 3-4 changes in hematocrit, hemoglobin, absolute neutrophil count, or platelets, nor clinically significant changes in other laboratory parameters, vital signs, or ECGs
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HI James, if I understand your question correctly, I was referring to the HCV RNA, the Hepatitis C Quantitation which, I believe, is usually measured in IU per mL...
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Somehow my message just isn't getting through.  I want everyone that can SVR to do so.  I have never said that supplements will eradicate the virus.  They can make you feel better and improve your liver function.  This is not about those that can achieve SVR with SOC, it is about those that can't.  Is there something wrong with the way I am stating this?   I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I don't see why this is so hard to communicate.  For people like Joe, supplements are the only route.  If you are thinking that he can take Teleprevir and be cured, I sadly say, probably not.  People that have a poor response to interferon which has caused them to repeatedly fail TX, don't have a whole lot better chance with Teleprevir.  It is likely going to take at least 2 DAA in the cocktail to get the job done.  It isn't impossible that he could clear but his chances are nothing to get very excited about and that could be bad as far as being able to utilize that drug in a future cocktail.  I wish it wasn't so because it could be a long time before 2 DAA are available to Joe. Boceprevir is also basically eliminated for him because his hgb is too fragile.  You seem to think we have available soc  choices but we don't.  We are locked in this cell with many other non responders and people that have circumstances that prohibit them from being cured by SOC.  The supplements have given Joe,and thus our whole family, a quality of life he didn't have without them and supplied some hope.  
Best Wishes for your SVR,
Ev
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1130586_tn?1316269892

Read some of nygirl7 posts in MH from the past regarding Tela/Boce ... referring to them as the new "miracle" drugs ... there are many ...

No problem ... we agree to disagree ....  

The study or clinical trials current 2010 or 2011 reference data i refer to can all be supported... if you want ... just tell me which data you don't believe or trust ... or,  you can easily find this data online yourself in AASLD , EASL , CCO , ( Clinical Care Options ) or PubMed , NATAP websites ...

It does take the time to look though ..........



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Great best answer up there Trish!  When I started tx in 11/08 I naively thought that I would breeze right thru it with no problems whatsoever.  Wrong!  I have many issues that I didn't even consider, also a friend of my wife's was going thru tx and doing fairly well so b/c of that my wife pushed me and thought it should be easy for me, irritating situation.  Long story short, I was gonna have to start Procrit along with my Boceprevir and SOC.  That wouldn't be a big deal for most ppl b/c most ppl have regular good running veins and unfortunately I am not the one.  I had a big issue with the interferon and it affected my mood drastically.  All of a sudden I was living with shame for my past drug use which came up as depression (anti-depressant didn't help) and was treated like sheet at work and I happen to work in the health field,WTF!!  I would like to tx again but that is only b/c I am dealing with the issue of swelling in my legs and ankles.  The swelling didn't seem that bad prior to me starting tx but I am now a couple of yrs older and I really don't know for certain if it got worse or not.  This time around when I tx I will have to prepare for it in a large way.  I got to lose some weight and get into working out regularly before I start.  Incidentally I forgot to mention that I am anemic and I had HepA when I was a teen so my liver wasn't anything close to normal before I was infected with HepC and dx'ed in 92.  

My suggestion to all who are looking into tx is this.  If you are in very good health and you have good veins.  Tx if you want to, but personally I would put it off for as long as possible.  That said keep on top of your HepC and that's for everyone who has it.  You never know when your LFT's are gonna spike ten fold and try to take you down so the best thing to do is have regular blood panels done and a liver biopsy done every 3 to 5 yrs.  The blood tests will have to be done more frequently, work that out with your doctor.

In short when it comes to SOC for HepC, put it off for as long as you can.  Tx if you absolutely have to but if you don't have to then don't stir the pot, jmho.  HepC is deadly serious and ppl are dying to get tx'ed so don't minimize the power of the dragon.  good luck fellow Heppers!  
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Great news Trish, Aaron please see Trish's post for g-3 telaprevir results
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Thanks to the powers that be ......  there is allot of new research , clinical trials and hopefully good news for everybody infected with HCV ... on the horizon James .. there is allot more $$ being spent on R&D these days than even 3 to 4 yrs. ago ....... in the next 5-10 yrs there may be a cure-all Tx for 100% of all the HCV infected .... or not ...

I did not mean to imply there is little hope for G-3 or any of the other genotypes .... who do not SVR ....

My main point and others in this thread has been to try to open up some of the close minded members here .....  to .... lighten up on the other members who cannot achieve SVR , or cannot handle the Sx of Tx , or just want to wait for new developments in Tx ... depending on their unique situation ...

Regarding Alternative ways to support the liver ....

Threads do go off subject sometimes as we all feel strongly about this infection and how do deal with it ...

Just to let you know ...  I want to dedicate your question "When do you stop having PCR RNA tests" to it's own post .....

I think this is a very worthwhile question ...



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I don't think it was my question.  But a worthy topic definitely.
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It wasn't your question .. your right .. it was mikesimon's March 10 question ...
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>"This is not about those that can achieve SVR with SOC, it is about those that can't. "

that says it all. As background, here's an excerpt from a recent review by Rehermann on host/virus coexistence:

"continuous recruitment and death, the lysis of some — but not all — HCV-infected hepatocytes, and the secretion of inflammatory and profibrotic cytokines such as TGF-β activate stellate cells, the primary source of extracellular matrix. The portal area expands, with thin collagen fiber extensions between layers of hepatocytes. As the disease progresses, fibrous bridges form between adjacent portal areas, and cirrhosis develops. Hepatocellular carcinoma usually arises after 2–4 decades, typically on the basis of underlying cirrhosis and possibly aided by an inherent carcinogenic potential of HCV "

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19587449

Activated stellate cells, not the virus directly, are responsible for gradually transforming liver tissue to shoe leather. If you can get rid of the virus, great. If you can't it makes good sense to inbit TGF-B and stellate cell activation - that's the source of the damage. HR outlined relevant research in his posts here, principally antioxidants - but it's tough going. One thing that is certain is that there will be no pharma interest in this maintenance approach  - zero stock market speculation regarding PPC sales

The irony is that those who most need help on this forum receive the least. SOC tx is no picnic but is basically straightforward - follow directions, do your time and hopefully pick up your SVR at the end of the ride. Piecing together a survival strategy if you need to continue to coexist with the virus is much harder.  
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I wonder why pharma would not be interested in this? Cirrhosis can occur not only as a result of hepatitis C, but as a consequence of many other conditions. Couldn't they make some money off the maintenance approach? For many patients maintenance is the only option, unfortunately.
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Good Evening to all and Good Evening to you, Trish. Thank you so so much about all the info you posted. The documents I am referring to are actual case studies with patients whom hep c virus became undetectable after going through a traditional chinese treatment,  (honestly I haven't checked all of your sources yet so not sure if some links contain this but in any case that is what i was mentioning). I contacted my friends/chinese medicine specialists so they can let me know where to find such documents. Again, I will never claim "I know" and there is the possibility that I completely misunderstood and that if unable to get rid of the virus itself, chinese medicine in certain cases, can bring the viral load to zero. I made one of them repeat it twice at least. so, chances are I did understand correctly. All of you can count on me, as soon as i hear from them, I will communicate any and all information pertaining to the topic.

Have a great evening everybody,

nikita
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I believe pharma  is involved in development of various anti-fibrotic drugs. However, as evident from the long delay in PI approval, getting a new drug past the FDA is a HUGE task in terms of time, effort and cost. Over-the-counter agents/supplements that may slow fibrosis - eg by interfering with stellate cell activation or TGF-B signaling will never meet the threshold - they are not patentable hence profits are very limited and benefits are likely to be both mild and very hard to measure.

There's a good free-access review of options for  anti-fibrotic drugs and supplements out of Harvard here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19726145
See for example the section on "Plant-derived Drugs"

Forums like this could be very useful for sharing reliable supplement vendors, supporting evidence and usage warnings. However most arguments over alternative approaches make no distinction between  colloidal silver and sho-saiko-to or ppc.
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Thank you very much for your response. Yes, you are right, arguments don't make this distinction. And this is sad, because there is a big difference between these approaches.
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"SOC is the only clinically proven cure.'

That may be true, but it is misleading.

It implies that only SOC actually works, and many people believe that.

If Chinese medicine, accupuncture, Ayurveda, homeopathy, cow urine therapy, pranayama, even BHT are never clinically TESTED, then they will never be clinically proven, but they are not clinically disproven either, so they cannot be ruled out.

Who does the clinical testing je me demande?

More accurate, and equally true, would be to say that 'SOC has been clinically proven to work some of the time. Other claims of cures have not been fully evaluated by western medicine/science as of today.'


Some possible cures definitely sound 'fishy' but others are founded on very sound concepts that are little researched in western medicine.

Point being, 'only clinically proven cure' is not the same as 'only cure', until all feasible, possible cures have been clinically tested.

SOC may be the only practical approach for the majority of people in the western world today, but progress is often the result of trying something different, often by force of circumstances and often in the face of skepticism.

If SOC has worked or is working for you that's wonderful, and if it didn’t or doesn't and supplements help, that's wonderful too, and if neither of those are possible and you're a neurotic, cirrhotic, pig-headed looney case, and you’re still trying to fix things, then it may all hang on how much support and encouragement your friends give you, even if they do think you're skreewd medically. All we want is the truth, and 9 times out of 10 with Hep C, the truth is "we don't know."
Points of view and opinions are partly what this site exists for, but t’would be nice if they  be served with a little honey so they be tasty for everyone.
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I was not talking about the cure, but about anti-fibrotic compounds and about supporting the liver function. HCV is hard to eradicate, and I personally have never seen anybody succeed doing it with alternatives. No solid evidence. But I did meet some people who are able to successfully maintain their liver health for many years despite the virus being present.

There is a big difference between the cure and supporting liver function.
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I realize the point of your comments, and mine was not addressed to you, but since this thread deals with alternatives to SOC, I was just observing that this understanding that SOC is the only cure and if you can't do that, then have a go at making do with supplements, is actually based on speculation and not based on laboratory tests, because not all the claims of cures have been thoroughly investigated.

Since you brought it up, I don't feel there IS "a big difference between the cure and supporting liver function."

Anti-fibrotic compounds and supporting the liver function, may be as good or better in restoring and maintaining good health as interferon is, it's not really had a fair testing.

There are many potential threats to our good health in our body all the time, if they are kept under control they are not a danger.
If the liver and immune system can be kept strong and  working well, we are not at risk from the effects of HCV. It is not so smart it will give up attacking the liver and go for the lungs instead.
Considering what a brilliant machine this body is, I feel it is capable of far more than we allow,  Hopefully others can shed  more light on this, and that with discussion and experience we can maximize the body's own potential to heal. Understandably is not of interest to everyone, each to his own, but let's at least have a look and talk about it.
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Hi,

I've been watching this thread & others on similar topics for a while now.
I also belong to another hepatitis c forum, a peripheral neuropathy forum & one for cryoglobulinemia. The members of these forums share their experiences with traditional & complimentary therapies. Many are using both. The atmosphere is very supportive. I like to come here for the latest information on what's happening in the US & to see what people who have taken the traditional route have to say & I'd like to see how those who have taken the  complimentary route have improved their quality of life. I get that "soc" is the only proven hcv cure & that some people are only out there to make a buck out of peddling snake oil but I also think there is some value in using other therapies to improve & enhance ones health. Massage, Meditation & Chiropractic therapies are all well accepted alternative treatments in our society today. So too is Mind/Body medicine, who'd of thought 40 years ago that it would be practiced  in a major medical hospital such as the Benson Henry Institute at Massachusetts General. I bet there were a lot of people who thought Herbert Benson MD was a bit of a crack pot back in the day but his theories have since been proven. Anyway my aim is to treat this disease with "soc"  whether that is soon or some time in the future when newer drugs become available in Australia & I may choose to use some complimentary therapies to prepare myself for treatment. Until then I'm interested in seeing what others have to say on the forum. will consider that it's not always what you say but the way you say it when trying to get your point across.

Best wishes to you all.

Have a great day :)
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Avatar_m_tn
I've arrived at the same conclusion so far as Aussielee and many others here. TX, yes but in the mean time, what can I do about my liver and cirrosis (cirrhosis) while I'm waiting.

murariji;
Anti-fibrotic compounds and supporting the liver function, may be as good or better in restoring and maintaining good health as interferon is, it's not really had a fair testing.

Remember this story:

Thomas Edison failed more than 1,000 times when
trying to create the light bulb".  (The story is often told as 5,000
or 10,000 times depending on the version.)  When asked about it,
Edison allegedly said, "I have not failed 1,000 times.  I have
successfully discovered 1,000 ways to NOT make a light bulb."

With technology, supportive forums like this and collective experiences and focus, I'm sure there are ways to tap the world for the discoveries we are looking for.

Thanks all, keep it coming.
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