tcm (traditional chinese medicine)

Hi Ya"ll, Hope everyone had a great holiday. I haven't checked in for a little while. I took some time to regroup and sit back and figure out my next step as a nonresponder.My last posting was on if anyone had any experience with chinese medicine. Acupuncture and natural herbs. I found a MD, PHD chinese doctor in my area who is a specialist in immune disorders, hcv, cancer, people who are on chemo- interferon, I have been recieving acupuncture and herbs. He has an in clinic natural herb pharmacy, that he prescribes and mixes fresh herbs, He is the real deal with 21 yrs. in practice. He is working together with my Hepotologist to build my immune system to it's optimum before round two of interferon if and when I have to. I see him once a week. After two treatments all blood work is back within normal limits, accept ast is a little high.I feel great lots of energy. After research on tcm,they have been treating hcv for a long time.My diagnosis is liver Qi stagnation,Hepatic viral toxin stasis accumulation,Qi immune deficency. His practice is to treat with tcm to build the immune system before starting treatment, and it helps greatly with the sides during treatment.There is a alot more to chinese medicine than I realized.I am hoping that this Dr. can keep this virus under control until a better drug comes along. Blood checked once a month and pcr every three. If any one has more interest in details of my labs, and my choice of treatment, I would gladly post them . Dr. Yuxin He Austin, tx. This year is gonna be A great one.

[miss moneypenny]

I think there is a lot to be said for TCM, and would be interested in your lab results. I am taking a formula by John Tindall (UK expert) called Adjunct, which is hopefully going to help me with the sx when I start treatment in a few days. I will let everyone know if it seems to help.

Is there anyway to prepare against anaemia from the riba? I have low ferratin apparently and would like to try and build this up a bit, as they don't use procrit etc here in uk, just dose reduction,

thank you all for being there, and knowing so much, while I lurk in the shadows!

x

[NYgirl]

I don't think there is any way to shore up against the anemia.  We HAVE to avoid IRON and that would be the thing that might help us.  

The BEST thing you can do for youself is monitor your CBC CLOSELY and get your Epogen or Procrit approved and in place beforehand.

You are finally going to get started! You must be a wreck like I was but I've found the worse part was my imagination beforehand! (Although the anemia was GOD AWFUL...it was FIXABLE so that is a great thing as it keeps you able to do treatment).

Hang in there and be happy - pretty soon you will be SVR and looking back and going hey that wasn't so bad!  :)

[miss moneypenny]

thanks for your support! Yes - I am pretty stressed about starting tx - worrying about becoming the mother from hell mostly!!! I wish I could get the anaemia drugs lined up, but my hep nurse tells me that it is not used in the uk, just dose reduction or transfusion!!!!! Which I would rather not do, is procrit used routinely there? Guess I am in the wrong place ;-)

x

[can-do-man]

Please folks think back when you first found this site. If every time you tried to ask a question and it read "try posting again at a different time" you would soon give up and move on. Anymore its like a race to see how fast the threads can be open so were not being fair to any new people that have hepatitis C and are looking to have their questions answered.

If you go into the "terms and conditions" then click on "rules for posting questions", rule number 8 states only 2 questions in a 6 month period. Now i haven't seen that rule enforced here by med help and i can see where some of us need to ask questions more often. But we also need to understand new folks need to be able to use this site also.

Please don't take this the wrong way but try to understand this is a forum for all and it wasn't even noon today and all threads are gone so if anybody comes here for the first time they can't post today, so were not being of help to those that was like we once was that are scared and looking for answers.

Now i know those that are long time members here know this has never been like this before so maybe you can explain it better then me.

[NYgirl]

Yesterday we had two thread for the entire day because of either someone maliciously opening and not posting OR from ignorance (which is one thing we are trying to get rid of right now).

I'd rather have threads open then have NONE to post with whatsoever.

Unfortunately we are getting used to hunting down for topics as it has been NECESSARY and not by design.

[cuteus]

I never saw this happen before, you are right.  I wish med help would have an explanation for those who click on "post a question" and find themselves "speechless" when the window opens. I think they should explain that there is an 8 thread allotment, that it is suggested that only 2 should be opened in a 6 month period by a member to give the opportunity to newer members, and that if the thread is closed without a question, it will be lost.  A simple explanation, might save the threads.

Also, keep in mind that the threads have been shortened, and they fill up quickly. If chatting is needed, on a day where few threads were opened, perhaps IM could be used? I do wish MH would place a little usage tip somewhere in the post question window.  
What you are asking does make sense.  Perhaps waiting until after noon, to use the unused threads might give a better chance to a new person, instead of rushing to open threads first thing in the morning? you are asking for a little consideration, and I think most folks will see it that way.

[cougareyes]

Riba + iron defienciency = anemia. All of us on tx do not have excessive iron stores, this is something that can be charted on your bx and by getting blood tests. Most docs recommend not taking additional iron during tx. Sometimes you will find anemia enabled due to iron and/or B12 defiency.   Peace

[friole]

Hopefully Jmjm or Vegas will come along and summarize their experience with the Chinese regiment.  It seems to me that both had serious increase in the ALT and AST and had to stop.  Since yours is a little higher, please have it tested frequently.  I know nothing of the Chinese herb method.

On open threads, I think I have been guilty of checking to see if there was one and hitting the back button, not knowing that used it up.  Sorry.  It did not happen often, but it did happen.

On open threads in general -- another thing I would add to what Can do says -- when you first come to MedHelp you read a lot in the archives.  Without clear topics, there is much valuable information missed because you may not check those threads.  -- Not that I am saying we must always stay on topic, but it does help having a topic in the title.

[jmjm530]

Herbs --

At least half-dozen people including Vegas, CTON, DanceGirl?, myself and others I can't remember -- have posted recently that a rise in liver enzymes was associated with the use of herbs. Others, like Tallblonde, have had the opposite experience. From my own personal experience, I shy away from them now but if you do decide to try them -- do a lot of research, start conservatively, keep your doctor in the loop, and make sure your liver enzymes are monitored every 2-4 weeks after you start a new regimen.

Posts -- I agree, it's chatotic enough when even the subject-specific threads have multiple topics. I'd leave some threads open for new people and those who feel they want to start a topic. Frankly, I was thinking of opening a post titled "Hepatitis C Only topics" the other day. LOL.

-- Jim

[friole]

That's funny Jim - Hep c topics only.  Wouldn't that get boring?

Chev -- I have the same problem with scanning posts.  Sounds like we agree tho.  Hey --- I wanted to say something to you.  You shaved your legs 2x a week on tx????  Heck - I only have to do it twice a month.  That seems to be one of the positive benefits of tx -- of course, a lot depends if you tx in shorts weather or not....

[friole]

Hey, I am one quarter pure Bohemian -- my mother's mother was born there.  The rest is plain jane irish, english and scottish (altho my dad denied it all but the scottish).  

Yes, sad about the hot stuff.  I bought my hubby some chocolate fudge syrup with chili powder in it.  Ate it one time on my icecream and have not done it again.  Pretty bad, for living in TexMex country.

[Tallblonde]

Are you willing to share what specific herbs are in your formulation?  Or do you even know?  I began taking a TCM product called Nu-Liver back in April.  A liver function test a couple of months later showed a significant (20%) reduction in ALT/AST.  However, another test a month ago revealed a very dramatic increase in both enzymes.  It may have been due to some over-the-counter products I was taking, but I've decided to go off of the Chinese herbs altogether so see if my LFT's stabilize.

Susan

[Forseegood]

On the use of Chinese herbs, I have tried them myself and found that they were a bit too strong for my own particular system, I did go to a couple of Chinese practitioners though...I have a very, very sensitive system, I cant even drink that roobiboos tea for crissake...and that is benign without any caffeine...I do much better on a high anti-oxidant regimen with only a few specialized herbs that I have had tailor made for me, they have greatly helped my symptoms with hep and I believe my inflammation, and I'm not the only one who says this of them, I just don't think that this is a site where you have a lot of people who have tried these types of therapies, some but not most....and of course, just because I take these therapies does not mean I'm ruling out conventional tx...

Now I might get some mud pies for posting this so I have my rain slicker on beforehand...but I have seen some people here say they had negative results taking chinese herbs, what I did see though is some of these people did not go to a specialized Chinese herbalist...Califia for one went to one of the best Chinese herbalists there is, Misha Cohen (she has a website) she specializes in hep c and working with hepatologists with people doing tx, big time hepatologists that everybody has heard of, so I think she probably knows her stuff and Califia had great results with her and ended up going on tx anyway after many years...I just think if I was a non-responder and or relapser, I'd look into these therapies working with well known experts...

I know of a few people mentioned and they went to other practioners and not necessarily ones that were specialized in Chinese herbs, we wouldn't go to a ear, nose and throat specialist if we had cardiac problems....learning about chinese herbs takes years of specialty...and it's maybe like doctors, not all hepatologists are good, sometimes we have to go to more than one...

I really feel that some people are not given weight based and individualized care so maybe their regimens are off to begin with, hence the negative results...and please, I'm not saying this applies to all people who have tried them, that said, there does seem to be people who do not have great results with them perhaps because of some physiological disposition....

I just think that there are some people who maybe over react to this one negative experience (in my view) and throw out the baby with the bath water and nix all cam therapies because of one negative experience with one cam therapy...they are not all alike, by any means, chinese therapy is a lot different than what I do now....please, I'm not speaking of any one person in particular so please don't take offense; these are generalizations because I know a lot of people with hep....

and of course, we are speaking of helping the immunity, and possibly inflammation, etc. and not necessarily talking about eradicating the virus, only conventional therapy seems to do that in a percentage of treaters...

I do go to a european website with a lot of British people (and yes, I know of John Tindall) and many of them do cam therapies along with the tx in order to help lesson possible anemia (it seems they don't do a lot of rx blood enchancers over there, well, at least not as much as here...  I know many who swear by Chinese medicine, and other cam therapies along with tx, they are convinced it helped them through their tx with anemia and symptoms...I just don't think there are a lot of studies, and explorations in this area so best go to experts and I am for sure not an expert, these are very serious problems and  best to do what you and your doctor feel good about...

[jmjm530]

Sorry about your rise in enzymes. But you would have thought if the rise was related to the Chinese herbs  it would have occured a lot sooner, as mine did.

Possibly CTON or Vegas can chime in with their own experience as to the timing of the herbs and enzymes.

That said, you appear to have taken the prudent course to eliminate variables. Unfortunatly -- in the event it was the herbs -- if your case was similar to mine (from slightly elevated to ALT 649, AST 529 )it took about nine months to return to baseline -- as my doctor predicted it would -- so it requires a lot of patience and in the end you're never really 100% sure what caused it unless you go back on them, etc.

You mention you train pretty hard. I've found in the past that over-training -- especially long-distance endurance training -- has resulted in elevated enzymes, especially when I went on a higher-protein diet. Something else to explore. The good news is that the enzymes invariably seem to return to normal.

All the best luck.

-- Jim

[Forseegood]

I made a type up there, what I meant was that this is a site where you don't have a lot of people who have tried or really explored cam therapies, and it seems that over the counter isn't always the best idea either unless you work with experts who really know what they are doing...

[jmjm530]

Last sentence should have read ....always return to *baseline*

[Forseegood]

Sorry youre having some problems, isn't it awful, we have this disease to contend with and life can still keeps throwing us curve balls...hope youre levels come down, I, like Jim, don't think they spiked that bad, but you do what you think is best...are you going to give up the vitamins as well? just curious, don't have to answer that if you don't want to...

with me it was the opposite, I got sick from taking these aspirin  for a toothache, I was taking a lot of them for over two weeks and it put me into a hep flare...so doc told me not to do any vitamins or herbs, go off of everything and I felt sooo bad, and it kept on going like that for months...then I take blood draw and my alts spiked for the first time that I'd ever seen...so I felt so bad that I just decided to go back to what I was taking, to see if I would feel better, and I felt better within a week...then the next time I took my alts they had leveled out, I just think that it's soooo hard to pinpoint reasons for these things spike sometimes...it's a question of how long they spike, etc. Maybe my alts would of leveled out anyway without my regimen, maybe just stopping that aspirin is what leveled them out, all I know is that I feel much better on my regimen so I'm sticking to it and I seem to be holding steady at just slightly elevated so I'll take that...but I'm not on Chinese herbs either....let us know how you fare

[Tallblonde]

Jim,

Correction...I just took another look at my "LabTracker" and saw that it took about 5 months for my LFT's to go down after I got the good news of my biopsy.  So, you're right....it doesn't happen overnight.  I guess the bottom line is that they can spike quickly, for a variety of reasons (perhaps including the shock and anxiety of being dx with HCV), but they can take months to fall back down again.

Susan

[Tallblonde]

Jim,
Yes, I meant I did the Fibrosure last April.  I'm scheduled to do the Fibroscan this coming May and a second biopsy in November.  I think I have all the bases covered!


Foreseegood,
No, the only thing I'm discontinuing is the Nu-Liver capsules.  I'm still taking everything else.  And believe, me, that's a lot!  I still feel great: lots of energy, no joint pain, etc., which I do give credit to my regimen.


My best to both of you.

Susan

[suzieq2]

This treatment I am recieving is from A doctor who recieved his MD and PHD in China, and has been in practice and teaching for 21 years. not someone who took a couple of years of acupuncture course.Also a diplomat in herbs.the following lab results are comparing from 11/1/05 to 1/6/06.
wbc went from 6.1 to 10.6
rbc           3.13 to 4.13
hemoglobin    10.4 to 13.5
platelets     251  to 315
lym           1.8  to 2.2
hct           30.3 to 40.1
mcv           97.0 to 96.9
mch           33.2 to 32.6
neutrophils   3.9  to 7.3

liver profile
protein       6.7  to 6.9
bilirubin     0.4  to 0.5
ast           25   to 61
alt           18   to 58
these numbers are stopping peg/rba less than two months ago and only two acupuncture prescribed herb treatment.I will update on future labs and pcr.There is also a drug Oxymatrine that studies are showing as good or better results taken orally with little side effects.I have just started studying tcm and the concept of the diagnosing and treatment,it has a lot to do with the tounge,sides of big toe nail, trouble swallowing. there are many web sites that make a lot of sense.My goal with my Dr. is to rebuild my immune system to a point that it fights the virus on it;s own. keep you posted.He reccommends this acupuncture, herb treatment before starting interferon, chemo, ect. Dr. Yuxin He.

[Forseegood]

I know, if I remember correctly, I have a similar regimen to yours, that "tumeric" got even more good press recently, if you've been seeing the news items on it...they've been using it on older people to delay progression of senility and some other diseases due to inflammation....also, don't know if you take whey protein powder for enzyme therapy and aminos, but I use a really good goat protein powder (goat milk and goat cheese are packed with vitamins and supposedly much better for you then dairy products) it's fabulous, Goatien, I use that (just a little bit) with goat milk yogurt for my fruit smoothies, I get a very nice energy rush afterwards...that way I can cut out the dairy...I know most people reading this thinks i'm crazy but you might understand, he he he...

[jmjm530]

Rock,

Wonderful news! You must have signed a breath of relief! And I'm relieved your Doc let you do your shot today and will make up for any lost ground by shortening your shot cycle this week. Rock on!

-- Jim

[can-do-man]

Don't ya just hate them curve balls? Id much rather have a fast ball right down the middle. That said, h*ll man if you think you need it and feel you can handle the sx's then go for it. If you don't you'll just stress yourself wondering should i, could i. just don't kill yourself trying to cure yourself. Best of luck to you.

[Tallblonde]

Hey, I can top you in the crazy department.  I actually own goats!  I have two of them....Nubian goats, to be percise.  Hazelnut and Juniper Berry.  We got them a month ago when we had to put one of our two horses to sleep (very tragic).

Hazel and Juny are companions our lonely, surviving horse.  I love 'em!

I'll bet they'd make some terrific protein powder.  But first, I'll have to figure out how to milk them!  LOL!

Susan

[Forseegood]

ha ha, I researched this, goats are good!  what I've read and studied about diet and nutrition, is that what's good for you can be an ancestral thing...in that if youre from a culture that gets a lot of their protein from meat like some cultures, it's harder for this person to go vegan than say, a person who is from Japan, or a culture that has always eaten less meat...it's a dna thing...and since most of us are descended from agrarian cultures that relied a lot on goats, (way more then cows in some instances) it's just a really good food packed with nutrition...goat milk, cheese and yogurt. And it's not apt to have all the hormones and meds and things to fatten cows up that dairy does...I sooo envy you that you have goats! that you get to live in close proximity to animals like this, youre really lucky....and if people think I'm nutso, it's okay...ha ha!

[Forseegood]

Hi Rocker, I just kept it simple (for a few months) like you say, and I feel better on my regimen, it tested out for me, I completely respect what other people do and don't do though...just wanted to thank you for reminding people not to use aluminum under arm anti=persperant, even just a deoderant that is chemically based is much better than aluminum...one of the most toxic substances known to man and millions of people put it in the most porous part of their body...yikes!

[Moeymitt]

Hi, when I was dx 4 years ago my ast/alts were 40/35. Stayed that way for a long time then I went on Dr. Zhangs Herbs and after 3 months they shot up so high I went off them. Rechecked in 2 months and they were the same so I went to a ND and went on a Vitamin regimen for 6 months, liver enzymes went up to 301/197. I am now off everything and was retested on thurs. Should see the results tomorrow. For me they didn;t work and I am someone who has used herbs and vitamins my whole life. Go figure.

To the person who who is relying on the Fibrotest (Blood work instead of bx)... I also had that test done at the same time I was doing my second bx just to compare. Second bx results were 1/1. Firotest results were possible Cirrhosis. I will stay with the traditional bx.

Mo

[jmjm530]

Your right, you're values aren't anywhere near where mine went. My doc at the time considered it almost an 'acute' attack. BTW, my fogged brain today forgot the term,  but if your enzymes double, for example, it doesn't mean they're twice as bad. I don't think you have anything to worry about but you seem to be taking exactly the right approach.

About six years ago I had a similar spike to yours and then attributed it to changing from a high-carb, very low fat diet to the Zone diet and/or a very intense exercise program I started with the Zone. Based on this, I went off the Zone diet and toned down my exercise program a bit. Like with you, took about five months for the enzymes to return to baseline.

Stress? Probably the most underestimated factor we got but whether or not it figured into your or my enzyme climb is anyone's guess.

Didn't realize you had Fibroscan in April or do you mean the Fibrosure blood test?

[Tallblonde]

Oh gosh, my enzymes didn't go up as much as yours did.  But still, I'm not happy about it.  My ALT jump from 67 to 193 and my AST rose from 56 to 147.  

Actually, I'm not losing a lot of sleep over it.  I had a Fibroscan in April that put me at Stage 0-1.  I doubt that something's gone haywire in my liver in that short amount of time.  Quite frankly, I think that emotional stress has a lot to do with the elevation in my case.  I've had a lot on my plate, personally and professionally, since last summer.  

The reason I believe stress can affect LFT's is based on my own history.  The insurance company blood test that first discovered my HCV in 2003 listed my ALT at 80 and my AST at 52.  Less than two months later, they had risen to 182 and 109 -- without any explanation.  They were back down again shortly after the good results of my biopsy were in.

So I really think excessive emotional stress can affect liver enzymes.  I'd be interested in hearing if you or others have had similar experiences.

But I still want to play it safe and discontinue the Chinese herbs -- at least until I get a better handle on this.

Susan

[GoofyDad]

From the sideways looks I get from my coinhabitants in this abode, I can tell you not everyone shares your enthusiasm for  living side-by-side with the animals.

-- Bleeet...

[cuteus]

heck, I will go the goat route, it might even save hundreds of wolves and other wildlife that is being massacred for the benefit of cattle ranchers. count me in. Are goat ranchers banded in the wolf killing? Maybe I should research this one further.
Do Whopper jr come in goat flavor?

[FlGuy]

TB. At which location will you have the Fibroscan and will you be in a study, or did your doc in some way Rx the fibroscan?

Veg.  Were you able to schedule the Fibroscan in NC?  If yes, do they require anything of you in the way of advanced records, reports, Doogie input?

[Tallblonde]

I e-mailed the clinical coordinator for the study at Beth Isreal in Boston and asked to be included in the study.  He passed my information onto Dr. Afdahl, who approved me as an out-of-town participant.  I was required to schedule a regular office visit with Dr. Afdahl; the scan is free and will be done immediately after I meet with Dr. Afdhal.

Of course, I had to meet all the criteria, including having had a biopsy less than three years ago.  They won't let you in if you don't meet that, and other, requirements.  

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Susan

[Forseegood]

In all my "goat" fervor...I neglected to say how sorry I am that your horsey died, my sis had two quarter horses and I felt so bad when one of them passed on, she finally had to sell the other one...whatever your present troubles, I'm sure the remaining horse and the rest of your animals bring a lot of joy into your life....

speaking of stock values, I'd personally like to invest in a goat farm...I feel it's the next big thing cause their products are so much better for us then dairy and taste just as good...Cuteus, that's a good point...