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Benazir butto dead
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Benazir butto dead

She was killed today in a suicide bombing.

It's so tragic.

wyntre
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just hearing this selfsame news this morning...i am less than informed about the lady,but she is part of a dynasty of rulers in pakistan..and i have read reports of incredibkle wealth accumulated by family during their leadership..All death is tragic..was she indeed the answer for pakistan? she certainly had the moxie,name recognition and international regard...Pakistan is in sucha state of chaos&death...military coups,corruption,religious fundamentalists,poverty...the "bomb".....a Great Big Sad mess.......expecting a bit of snow today,maybe a shovel session will distract me from latest political quagmire? hope you are hangin tuff with bearable sides...GOODLUCK
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Regardless of how you view her, she has a place in world history as the first Muslim woman head of state;   elected for the first time almost 2 decades ago, when she was 35.

Asasinated at age 54.

ironic that the USA is one of the only so-called progressive western nations that still hasn't elected a woman.

Not to mention that Pakistan now has 100 'rogue' nukes that can easily end up in you-know-who's hands.

Sorry if i shouldn't have posted this here but aside from the sheer tragedy of it, I just think everyone better pay attention coz it's gonna be a bumpy ride.

We're not getting the snow here!  Hooray for small gifts.

Thanks, beamish,

wyntre

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thanks for posting, been reading up on this, this morning...hope youre doing better...
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    I talked to my friend from India today, his opinion is GOOD RIDDANCE.  He thinks that she had lots of blood on her hands, that she was just as corrupt as anyone else in the region.  He hates Musharraf too.  He basically is very pessimistic about the future of Pakistan, and hence very worried about India.  
    
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4c -

the story sure is weird.  How could she have been shot in the head and chest at close range while riding in an armoured car by a suicide bomber who had, evidently, not detonated his bombs until after shooting her . . . . I saw the footage of her standing up through the open sunroof, but I thought the shooting occurred after she sat down again.

- and the forensic evidence has already been washed away.

Jam,

That's ridiculous for your indian friend to have said 'good riddance.'   Is that what you think, too?

I also have lots of indian acquiantances/friends and i can't imagine any of them being 'glad' that Bhutto was assassinated, especially since India borders pakistan.


I suppose that the same might be reported by Euripeans or Asians if one of their American friends were to say 'Good riddance' at our president, or a current presidential candidate's assassination.

Are you taking the view of one supposed 'friend' in india as a barometer for others reactions?

As far as having blood on your hands, name one 'world' leader who doesn't.

wyn



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I think it's too bad. I don't know if she had as many shoes as Imelda Markos, but I doubt it.
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I found this very sad. I think her death is ashame and a terrible loss.
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315094_tn?1201393650
    Sorry about that...should have clarified.  NO, I do not condone barbarism in any form.  I just thought Tariks' opinion on it was interesting, he has a different perspective than I, since I get all my news from the U.S. media.  
     Another thing is, Tarik really thinks that her death probably saved lives.  I do not think that him saying good riddance is necessarily inappropriate considering the crimes that he thinks that she committed and the crimes that he thinks she would have committed.
     I personally do not feel like I know enough to voice my opinion on the subject.  I can tell you that I am scared,  I am really scared of the future.  The world does not seem to have learned any of it's lessons from the past, and World War 3 sounds less science fiction everyday.  
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OK.  I understand (i think).

I wouldn't want to see my worst enemy assassinated, and I certainly think she did a lot for a lot of people, especially women, or at least gave them some hope.  

nobody's perfect, especially politicians, but she is an important symbol of the 21st century and an icon in having become the first muslim woman voted in as a head of state.  

If you know anything about what Muslim women go through, I would think that having another woman in power would tend to improve their lives significantly.

As the day has gone on, I've gotten a handle on the sequence of events and it now seems that she, inexplicably, invited the attack because she raised her head above the sunroof of the only partially armored vehicle and exposed herself to the assassin's bullet.

But it's still a terrible tragedy, IMO.  And the events that could be triggered by the tragedy are even scarier.

BTW - i used to work in a 'little india on the hudson' school district.

And i don't get all my news from the US media.  I do lots of google searches, checking blogs, other countries media, etc.

wyn

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i have read multiple testimonials today and my ill informed remarks i would please revise..a. huffington wrote a wonderful piece ..and i am duly humbled by the death of this strong, wise&commited woman..my original post merely repeated old accusations. it was inappropriate and i apologize.i am no fan of the 'powers that be' and generally anyone that bush likes i suspect but tragedy occured today...powerful forces have been unleashed and this bodes ill for muslim women,
pakistan,the middle east and the world....
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what nice sentiments...I personally am afraid on many levels, while we've been putting our energies, manpower and funds in Iraq, we should of been focusing on Afghanistan and Pakistan...I just hope this doesn't impact us in ways that I don't want to even think about...
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    Yeah, I get all my news from NPR, being a mother, always running around that is basically the best option because I can listen to it in the car or doing dishes.
    When it comes to news from that part of the world, I take all the english speaking media with a big fat grain of salt.
    That being said, you are probably right that this was a tragedy for democracy and bodes ill for women of the region.
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well, if you're interested in the news from pakistan, they're now reporting that although the hospital initially said BB died from gunshot wounds to the head and neck, the government has determined it was from when she 'fell', retreating from the sunroof back to the jeep's interior, and she struck her head on some 'lever', inflicting the mortal injury.

oh, yeah. .......

What with the "Kitchen" accidents, FGM and other Pakistani human and gender rights atrocities, what kind of message doya think it sends to Pakistani women when someone as powerful and connected as BB is assassinated on camera??????

think there's a message there?

wyn
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I am glad you posted this here. Where else are we Brian fogged people supposed to talk about politics????  lol  I was so depressed and still am about BB's unfortunate demise. You know all the photos I see, I keep saying to myself, ' why are you exposing yourself so much!"   She really didn't secure herself as she should have. As one leader (forget who) said, " She is a martyr of democracy".  Yep, she sure is. Who else is going to take the place of her in the elections coming in 10 days?  There is NO one that is for democratic elections and freedom. She was the one and only. Masherif (sp) doesn't do a thing about terrorism in Pakistan. she was the only one that did. Bin Laden is in some safe haven in N. Pakistan. Who knows who killed her, but it is so sad, but not unexpected.  Yuck!
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Didya hear that she sent an email to a Washington crony saying that if she died she held musharef responsible?

She had requested additional security and protection after the Bhutto-mobile catastrophe but the Pakistani's refused to provide additional assistance.  That's why she wrote the letter, a kind of 'to-be-opened-in-the-case-of-my-death' doc.

I saw a security pro's analysis of the moments before her death and while of course she should not have emerged from the sun roof to address the crowd, it was also glaringly apparent in the video that there was no one protecting her.

I may not agree with everything she did in her life, but IMHO, she was one heroic lady.  She didn't HAVE to go back to Pakistan.  It's not like she needed the money.  it took real courage and, as r glass would say, GONADS, for her to set foot back in that country.  She knew she was a marked woman but I don't think she expected musharraf to so blatently hang her out to dry.  Can you imagine any American politician exposing themselves to the danger she knew she faced?

She's a hero, especially compared to most of the media portrayed hollywood glamor-girl types this country is so addicted to holding up as role models.

And, predictably, she couldn't be allowed to survive.  If this were a game of chess, i'd say Bin Laden was way ahead.  What better way to throw Pakistan into turmoil without REALLY evoking the wrath of its (male) citizens then to orchestrate the return of Bhutto and then take HER out? Accomplishes the same thing, chaos, without the taliban and al quaeda having to enrage their possible converts.

Who knows where the path leads?  (Ok - I admit I'm hypothesizing but you just don't know - and that's the point - keeping us ignorant as a means to preserving power.)

OK.  Now you better respond so I don't get shunned, now.  *LOL*

wyn



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I'm finding myself reading your posts and this thread and nodding my head and saying yes.
Thank you for putting your thoughts down so articulately!
It's great to see someone expressing exactly how I feel when I am in no place mentally right now to try to express it myself... :-)
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i have also read of security breaches & of the involvemnt of taliban& bin laden's gang of theocratic thugs(how convenient-localized whipping boys)..but really ,why did anyone (read:bush administration) believe that she could indeed share power with pervez musharraf? a better question is why after spending trillions of dollars,thousands of american lives and millions of middle eastern civilians lives we still have not brought  bin laden&cohorts to justice?...why,while supporting resistance to soviet occupation in afghanistan did we train&arm fundamentalist ?..why did we turn a blind eye to pakistan's developmnt of a nuclear weapons arsenal?..why did we continue to maintain bases in saudi arabia after the first gulf war?..we did we remove them after 9/11?...thank god american medical practice is not run like american foreign policy-if so we would all be bankrupt,dead&certainly not winning any popularity contests.
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dmrdh,

OMG, lady!  that comment has almost convinced me i CAN do another 17 weeks (for total of 72) of this poison!

you just made my month!  I'm thrilled I was even the slightest bit comprehensible.  :)  

BB,

Agree with almost everything you said.  Off for shot 55.  Will write more, later.

  BTW - there's an excellent documentary on right now about Pakistan; ch. 57.

SFBaygirl,  

"Where else are we Brian fogged people supposed to talk about politics???? "

Hahahahaha.  my sentiments, exactly.
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You are so articulate and correct in your opinions. All of you.  i am glad us Brian heads have somewhere to post this stuff, albeit a hepc community board.  

Why have we spent 10 billion dollars firming up Musaref to protect the world from terrorists. He has done NOTHING to help save the world from terrorists. Bhutto promised to do so, no one else has.  She shouldn't have put herself out there as she did to be killed. Apparently she has money and has the rep of it, so why didn't she hire her own protection?  Almost think she planned on dying.  I know that's an awful thing to say.  She was so well educated and could have led Pakistan into a true social democracy. Her father's exectution made her strong and firm in the belief to make Pakistan a democracy. But why the hell did she stick her head out of that car?  It doesn't make sense!  Damn it.  I hate this. We needed a middle east woman to lead pakistan, or a man that believed in democracy.  Now what are they going to do?  Destroy the country? Musheif is a wimp and will do nothing to help with terrorism, just as Bush prefers to spend our money in Iraq, instead of going after the real terrorist who blew up the towers.
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Glad I could make your month!
Yesterday, during our work lunch break I started talking about her and the implications of her assassination on not only to the people of Pakistan but us also.  In a room of 9 well educated women there was only one other person in that room that even knew who she was.  One girl said she had heard her name before but didn't know who she was......
Extremely frustrating that these are voters and they have no idea whats going on in the world.  
OK....I feel better....
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'have also read of security breaches & of the involvemnt of taliban& bin laden's gang of theocratic thugs(how convenient-localized whipping boys)..but really ,why did anyone (read:bush administration) believe that she could indeed share power with pervez musharraf? '

I'm educating myself more about that area and from what I've gleaned, Musharareff and the Pakistanis support both the Taliban and Al Qeada,surreptiously, of course.

The Bush Administration is desperate for an insider (Bhutto) to report back on Mushareff's antics.  Another reason she has to be killed.

Ironic, isn't it, that Condoleeza Rice recruited her.  Bhutto was sacrificed.

'a better question is why after spending trillions of dollars,thousands of american lives and millions of middle eastern civilians lives we still have not brought  bin laden&cohorts to justice?.'

Strategy, IMHO . . . . they don't want him caught.  the Pakistanis love Bin Laden.  And the US , again, IMHO, have reasons to NOT want to catch him - just look at how al quaeda fell of the political map after 911 and suddenly iraq became the target . . . . Deliberately looking the other way , , , , a shell game . . . .

.'.why,while supporting resistance to soviet occupation in afghanistan did we train&arm fundamentalist ?..'

Think there's a thread here?  SOMEONE has plans for alqueda.   I'm not gonna post links to certain stuff here but feel free to contact me thru medhelp and I'll send what I've got,

'thank god american medical practice is not run like american foreign policy-if so we would all be bankrupt,dead&certainly not winning any popularity contests.'

well said, beamish.

wyn
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Why have we spent 10 billion dollars firming up Musaref to protect the world from terrorists. He has done NOTHING to help save the world from terrorists.

''Musharref IS a terrorist or, at the very least, a Muslim FUNDAMENTALIST.  The Pakistani people have great affectiona and sympathy for the Taliban.'

Bhutto promised to do so, no one else has.  She shouldn't have put herself out there as she did to be killed. Apparently she has money and has the rep of it, so why didn't she hire her own protection?'

"
just don't think it was as simple as that.  Obstacles must have been placed ihn her way.  Where was condy then?  After getting bhutto into it you'd think she help bail herout, but no . . . "  

Almost think she planned on dying.  I know that's an awful thing to say.  

'Not that she planned it but felt it couldn't be avoided.'

She was so well educated and could have led Pakistan into a true social democracy. Her father's exectution made her strong and firm in the belief to make Pakistan a democracy. But why the hell did she stick her head out of that car?  It doesn't make sense!

I't's a politician thing'.

  Damn it.  I hate this. We needed a middle east woman to lead pakistan, or a man that believed in democracy.  Now what are they going to do?  Destroy the country? Musheif is a wimp and will do nothing to help with terrorism, just as Bush prefers to spend our money in Iraq, instead of going after the real terrorist who blew up the towers.

'rant on!'
''
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I will....went to see Charlie Wilson's War tonite. Great movie!  We did nothing to help the Afghan's after the Soviet's left. What were they to do...there was a vaccum.  No money for food, roads, schools etc. No wonder many of them hated us.  Our support for for them was secret and after that war was over, we did absolutely nothing!  If you tear down a country, you at least have to help rebuild it. We did not. It is no wonder that many afghans supported the Taliban and Al Queda. They most likely helped them in a way we didn't.  I could rant on and will....later!

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that she's still dead. She just doesn't have the magic of General Francisco Franco. No one could die like that dude. Perhaps Castro can bring back some flare in this area. He's died a few times, or at least, been on his deathbed enough to at least make it entertaining.

But, boy, was this woman ever asking for it. I just don't get that whole martyr thing. She could be shopping at Harrods RIGHT NOW. But nooooo....
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Guess you WOULD find it difficult to imagine that someone might actually WANT to help people, particularly women, in a country where a large percentage of wives are burned annually in 'accidental'  kitchen fires orcehstrated by the husbands families so they can recoup the original 'bride price'....not to mention FMG . . . or the fact women aren't allowed an education . . . just a few of the many injustices that BB was interested in addressing . . . .

What have you ever done in your entire life that would have lifted a candle to what she at least TRIED to do?

So, from your comments, I deduce that it's ok for a "mother Theresaish" woman to take a vow of poverty and help people that way (which she later accused herself of being a hyporcite about in her memoir as her faith was often forced) but if a young(er) stronger educated woman enjoys occasional shopping jaunts in ADDITION to having an interest in humanatarian causes, like the plight of women in Pakistan, that's impermissable according to your world view.

Oh, and BTW, I though you were against 'political
threads?  I distinclty remember, when i first started loggin on here and the whole forum split was occurring, that you were particularly vocal and demanding in your idea that politics shouldn't be addressed.

So why jump on to this thread?

wyntre

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Because I'm a bad person I guess. Let me think about it for a second here...yup. That's it. I'm a bad person. Wouldn't go so far as to call myself a 'Bhutto Hater' or anything and don't really want to discuss the politics of Pakistan with you, or anyone else for that matter. It was an attempt at humour. Win some lose some. I don't really have any strong beliefs about Pakistani politics. Didn't realize there were people who did, at least around here. Not that I think my remarks were political per se, but you can see the result. Someone took offense. Namely you. I apparently insulted womanhood. For that I apologize. Ok, not really. I just said that to make you feel better and so people would like me. I have failed miserably. Hopefully, I don't have to get back on the anti-D's.
Honestly, I'm pretty much un-offendable, so by nature, I presume people are pretty much like me.

And yes, I was against political threads and I still am against political threads because it's my opinion, especially considering the elections coming up, that it would rip apart the cohesiveness of the board causing resentments and/or all out flame wars. The problem being, as soon as someone pipes up with their political views, then you're open to someone elses, who may not like your view, or you theirs. Suddenly, when you seek support for your TREATMENT and illness, human nature being what it is, that resentment could carry over to that because you said something that 'offended' someone. ( As if having a different view is offensive, but apparently .....it is. ) But, having not posted any political threads that doesn't preclude me from throwing a barb here and there when they show up. There are hundreds of political forums all over the www, all with the same threads and same old tired arguements. I've never felt like it had a place here. I go to political boards to discuss politics, sports forums to discuss sports, and cross-dressing forums to ....no wait....what I meant to say was I go to motocross forums. Honest. MOTOcross.

Now as to your comment of: " What have you ever done in your entire life that would have lifted a candle to what she at least TRIED to do? "

I once drank 11 pints of stout without taking a pisss. I think that qualifies.

Hope your treatment is going well wyntre. Hang in there. Stay positive. You can do it.
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Yes, it's very sad. I shouldn't have mentioned Emelda's shoes. That wasn't funny. She was the first and only female Muslim leader.
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A)  There is nothing amusing about someone being assassinated.  

B)  This didn't start as a political thread; simply a reflection of a breaking news story about a courageous and much-admired woman who inspired people around the world.

C)  Maybe you should finally '**** Out' that 11 pints of stout.  You might have become water'logged.

D)  That last comment was a joke.  

E)  What's wrong with vocabulary games?  (from pigeons post).  you got something against scrabble, or crossword puzzles, or suduko or something?  I mean, if you're gonna do them anyway, what's the harm of sending food to someone else in the process?

F)  thanks for your kind words.  I'm trying to hang in there.  Week  55 of 72 and the living ain't easy.

G)  This is as high as i can go these days without having to go back to A and start all over from the beginning.  Somehow, I don't think you would find THAT amusing.

wyn
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Sorry, but I think a bit of humor is good in these discussions. Yes, they are serious issues, but remember Goofy's posts? Funny!  What I-horn said was sort of funny in a way about shopping at Harrods and I don't think he meant to inflame or demean anyone, especially not women or BB.

Let's all calm down take a deep breath and remember we are here for one another!

Linda
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you do have a way with words that I've learned to appreciate over the last many months... your humor mixed with what seems like 'earned' wisdom are well done... I too have some political views that I've never shared on here as I fear the same thing as you indicated that when I need some tx insight then i've 'spent my nickels' already and may miss the valuable insight I would have gotten otherwise. Anyway, keep on pushing the group back to the middle of the road with your influence as you've earned it here and also showing a good example of having 'thick skin' is important. (11 pints of stout... wow) :-)

Scotty
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I have no problem with scrabble. At least, not that I'm aware of. Could never get the X points. I'm all for sending rice. In fact I have a cousin I saw at Christmas that is so thin I think she could use a drop. My mom and aunt are quite worried about her but I told them as long as she can swat flies, she's ok. In this matter, I would rather drop birth control pills or maybe, birth control IN the rice itself.
Mother nature is a cruel MF'er, wyntre. Maybe we should send them Ribaviron so they're too tired to pro-create. My point was, why don't they just send the rice ? It appears they are holding back a meal simply because some doofus misspelled a word. I can picture little Butu asking where supper is and being told..." NO RICE FOR YOU. WYNTRE SPELLED CALENDAR WITH AN 'E'. "

Uh-oh....now I just slammed anorexics...AND mother nature. And people named Butu. Oh the humanity !!  Where will it all end ?

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I debate in political threads here all the time...anyone noticed? lol...yet, I still get along with some of the most staunch conservatives here, some of them, I'd like to think...are my friends...If I feel a commonality with a person, and a kindness and humanity from them, I don't care what political belief system they believe in....if you stick to debating issues, and not resort to personal characterizations, it can be done with little fanfare...

And I personally learn a lot from them, as living where I do, I don't have a lot of truck with conservatives....a few but not many....unless it's through the media, etc...so it's interesting, to me at least, what people from all over the US think about some of these issues...

This side of the forum was specifically made for people to talk about ANYTHING they want to talk about, hepatitis, or some other thing...I haven't seen any rules posted saying we are restricted in our posts as to what the subject matter should be about...on this side anyway...

Personally, I don't think what I-horn said was funny...sure he won't lose a lot of sleep over that, or that he's royally impressed by a lot of my posts..that's okay...you'll never see total harmony in any group of people, impossible, too many personality types. (Unless they are brainwashed Moonies or something, but there are not too many Kool-Aid drinkers here I take it...)

I do feel that in having hepatitis C, I share this scary, burdensome disease with all the people here who have it....and that *can* transcend a lot of this other nitpicky stuff...for most people here anyway.....the ones that can't get over these things, things that I might of posted that they found offensive..... don't need to help or interact with me, and that's fine too.

There are plenty of people who post here, and I really think that when it comes my turn to treat, etc...that I'll get lots of help here, from whomever...whether they *agree* with me politically - or not...and then there is the old saw we've heard more times then Bayer has pills...if any member has problems with the subject matter of any particular thread, there are plenty of other threads going at the same time, that might be more to their liking.

I've seen some of the nastiest, most disagreeable people here get help...there are many understanding, empathetic people here, one of the reasons I like this place.
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"Mother nature is a cruel MF'er, wyntre. Maybe we should send them Ribaviron so they're too tired to pro-create"

Oh!  So THAT'S your problem?  Too much riba in the system and now the 11 pints of stout can't get to your head?

Oh, BTW, that was a joke.

TTTT, the anorexic comment was amusing.  Even the mother nature pass.  And i have found lots of your commentary very funny.  i just think someone's sudden death is not a cause for celebration unless you're volunteering to go over to pakistan, dig her up and give her an old-fashioned irish wake.

Ok - I said what I wanted, you said what you wanted and i have no further issues with this unless you wanna go a couple of more rounds.

I will admit that I will be less impulsive next time I hear something on the news that hits me in the gut.   thanks for bringing that to my attention.

wyntre

BTW - did you mean Colander - that thing you strain spaghetti in?
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You are correct. One doesn't have to read them. I have read some of it.  Having spent a good 10 years on the old Canadian National Post forums with a group of some pretty heavy hitters...writers, journalists, and a few politicians that were about as informed of a group as you'll find with no tolerance for fools, I reached a level of burnout on political discussion around 2005 or so.  It's not that I don't respect yours or anyone elses political views or beliefs but..heard it all...thousands upon thousands of times and I think, what will happen here, is that you just end up in a 'preaching' soap box mode.

My view is what it is. If you want to discuss politics, go to a political forum where there are people truely interested in that and get challenged.  Around here, no one is going to get really nasty so in that regard you're protected by the generally empathetic nature of this place and people wanting to be supportive of one another, get along, and not offend anyone so in that respect, I think political discussion in this place, is somewhat bogus and lightweight since that's not it's primary purpose. You may feel really brilliant hitting that 'post comment' button with a fine piece on what is wrong with the world and 'look at how smrt i am, but don't count on it. By it's nature, this board isn't occupied by a bunch of teenagers that know jack shiit about the world.  

For me, about the last thing I want to do to pass my time is get into a long winded political debate with an overly sensitive interferon crazed hepper in full blown obsessive complusive mode with a hint of ribarage and a holier than thou attitude.

To quote Massachusettes Rep. Barney Frank, who I generally despise, when asked about the sad state of politicians in America responded, 'Well the voting public is no bargain either.' Ain't that the truth. All of course, except 'you'. You being 'everyone'.  No one ever thinks they are the problem. So when it comes to longwinded posts about politics my question to you, or anyone else for that matter, is...and just who are you ? Who are you, oh wise one, that is enlightening me to the ways of this world ?  And the answer is....just some chick...or dude. Ding ding ding.....what did I win ?

-boozer

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I wouldn't say I'm 'celebrating' her death. I think her return to Pakistan was 'ill advised' and that she martyred herself, for whatever reason. Clearly she knew the odds were pretty high she'd be killed. Tough neighborhood over there. Is it sad, yeah. It's always sad when someone dies. But, the human condition being what it is...you know...shiit happens. I recall a few calls from some of the wackos in THIS country that said they wished Bushco would be assassinated. I'm not sure we shouldn't assassinate them ALL.

And no, I dont' have riba rage. I'm 5 months post treatment. Cruising along, doing pretty well except for a few non-health related 'life issues' to deal with. Life goes on.

I have no problem with your post(s). I think you're under the impression I'm critisizing you. I'm not. So you didn't like the BB remarks. I think I'll live. As will you.

Keep up the good work and keep poppin' those pills and doing those shots. You're gonna make it.

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Kinda funny that weeks ago Bhutto seemed ready to reassert herself in Pakistani politics again and was placed under house arrest by General/President Musharraf's security forces (he sure didn't want to give up that military uniform, did he?). Both of them have had quite a colorful background in their past, but her involvement in politics as a charismatic figure, a woman and, in a country that is overwhelmingly Muslim would have been a shot in the arm for womens rights worldwide. Musharraf has alot to lose and with the pressure the United States is putting on him it appears his grasp is slipping. He has some problems he needs to deal with and one of them was Bhutto. To have her assassinated and blame her death on Al-Qaida is the most logical. After all, who's going to dispute it? With so many rouge terrorist cells running amuck, finding someone to strap a bomb to himself with the promise of 70 virgins waiting for him in heaven and a guarantee to provide for his family after he's gone, who wouldn't martyr himself for that kind of deal?  But, what Musharraf might not have thought about is Bhutto herself might be given martyrdom status and this could led to utter chaos in Pakistan and might very well spill over to neighboring countries. Be careful for what you ask for.  Reminds me of a story a friend who spent 8 years in the Middle East told me. During a dinner with a devout Muslim friend, Tom's wife was cooking dinner while Tom and his friend were having drinks (not that devout I'm afraid). His friend bent over and asked, "Tom, how many times do you beat your wife a day?".  Kinda hard to change a way of life that's been around for 3,000 years. Jesus couldn't do it then.  Personally I'm surprised Bhutto lasted this long but it would have been interesting to have seen the rest of the story played out. Now we'll never know how it might have ended.  Every year I ask for the same thing at Christmas and every year my stocking remains empty, but that doesn't mean I've lost hope for world peace...I'll just ask for it again next year.
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What's really great, and I think you might of pointed this out yourself, is that I don't particularly "care" what you think..... if you think I'm full of myself, or you think, I think, I'm smarter then other people here, whatever you think...that's the beauty of this place...you don't like my posts, avoid them...you have every right to your opinion....that political posts don't belong on this forum, etc...And you have every right to not indulge them with your presence...people keep posting on them, it tends to perpetuate them, I'm sure youre aware of this...What's also great is that little cursor to the left or right of us...you can use it to just keep on truckin when you see political posts...because the long and the short of it is...they aren't restricted here...whatever your particular opinion of them is...they do interest me though, whether I make a darn fool of myself or not...

I didn't particularly get a lot out of some of the TV posts here in weeks past, Dancing with The Stars or whatever...but I never expressed it too much, cause that's not my deal, its theres...and if people get some joy, or amusement talking about this on the community side, I'm glad for them, and I sincerely mean that, no irony intended.....I don't get a lot from those shows...But I'm glad if anyone here gets amused, or interested, by anything...as long as no one is hurt in the process...I feel shared interests are an excellent way to take our minds off the strum and drang of hepatitis...I just mostly avoided those threads and went to others that held more interest for me. You can do as you please though, and if complaining about the political threads here is of interest to you, that's fine too. I'm glad you know so many intelligent people in your sphere, I know a few also.
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Teufel,

What an excellent, thoughtful post, especially this part:

"but her involvement in politics as a charismatic figure, a woman and, in a country that is overwhelmingly Muslim would have been a shot in the arm for womens rights worldwide."

not that I'm in any way a 1-gender interest person but I've read quite a bit about gender-dominated societies and I know i wouldn't last long under such a regime.

What i want to know is who is REALLY behind Musharref in this instance?  But I certainly won't post any such thread, here.  Would love your take on it, though.

I'm also concerned about this:

'But, what Musharraf might not have thought about is Bhutto herself might be given martyrdom status and this could led to utter chaos in Pakistan and might very well spill over to neighboring countries.'

4c,

Didn't you know that all the intelligent people in the world are strictly FOH?

'Having spent a good 10 years on the old Canadian National Post forums with a group of some pretty heavy hitters...writers, journalists, and a few politicians that were about as informed of a group as you'll find with no tolerance for fools...."

Doya think he's referring to us?  *LOL*

wyn

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How DARE you disrespect Dancing with the Stars !!   I'm sure you do know a lot of intelligent people. You know me so that right there speaks volumes. That is enough to raise the bar to a level others can only dream of. I think you may have personalized my post a bit much. I didn't mean to imply you were stupid. My 'you' was more of a collective 'you'. But I think your post in my thread about drinking after treatment left an impression on me that tainted my view of you after that.  Didn't understand why it elicited the response from you that it did. I think now, I understand a little better after reading your post in the other thread.. More than anything it befuddled me as to why you would have such a strong reaction to this. At that time I just thought, FSG has some kind of problem with me. But, I've gone 'off the reservation' a couple of times, particularly a post to Andiamo but I did apologize for that. Perhaps THAT is what caused your response in my thread about drinking post tx. Aren't you two sort of friends ? Maybe 'stuff' has just built up ...or maybe we just don't like one another.

You're right, I can always ignore political threads.
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Okay,  can we all just get along?   Seems not.  But it sounds good anyway.  I don't think Forsee was saying anything disrespectful about Dancing with the Stars. I also do not post to those threads. I do like the political ones though. I agree we most likely all have different takes on world politics that perhaps we can learn from.

I especially do not like the personal attacks on each other. We do need to get along. Yes, there are political boards we can post on, but as friends mostly, as we spend a lot of time with each other, can't we agree to disagree without putting each other down?
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Great post.  I enjoyed reading your comments. Thanks!
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I just see this as a discussion board, and a support board, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me or "like" me for that matter....If a person expects everyone to like them they are leaving themselves open for disappointment. Debating is just debating...I only know a few people on here personally, and I'm glad for their friendships, others I know only from their posts...so I don't really take it to a level where I'm thinking a lot about oh I don't like this one or that one...I really don't know most people here and they really don't know me either...we mostly know each other from our posts on a message board...

So, to me at least, it's really not that serious, personal stuff just gets in the way sometimes and believe it or not...I'm not into personal arguments or flaming...I'd rather discuss points and points of view....

I don't even remember my post you're alluding to in a alcohol thread, specifically...only that I always find it odd that people would come on here and talk about over drinking alcohol...I just figure, you want to over drink with hepatitis and get pie eyed, or on treatment, whatever....go do it by all means, our lives are to be lived the way we please....just why talk about it at a hepatitis board? Where people have this disease?.... just don't see the point or how it serves any purpose....I'm NOT including moderate drinking in that equation either....if that's what you're referring to...but I'm sure there are people who don't understand everything I do here either...
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I think it's a tragedy that Bhutto has been killed at this particular time in history as well.  However, let's be careful not to elevate her to total sainthood here.  She's had two terms in office already and while she was in office, she supported the Taliban and made her own contribution to their subsequent level of influence in Afghanistan.  She supported them militarily and financially as being the best option at the time and, as a result, has made her own contribution to the current problem.  While she was in power, she and her husband made alot of money off of the people of Pakistan.  She wasn't a whole lot different in that regard than alot of other leaders who serve themselves while being in power under the guise of serving their people.   There are a number of people who resent her family as having made their riches off the backs of the poor of Pakistan without improving their plight.  

What her motivation is for coming back to Pakistan now isn't entirely clear.  I think she came back now because she's certain to have the backing of the governments of the free world and part of her deal is to be absolved of the corruption charges that have been laid against her in the past.  Having said that, it was STILL a gutsy move and not at all without great personal sacrifice, I'm sure. And it is a blow to the democratic process to have Bhutto killed/assassinated at this time.  Certainly the pro-Islamist forces had something to do with this.  And that is the REAL threat here.  Whoever gets into power in Pakistan has to be able to contain the rising threat of fundamentalist Islamic factions that are increasing in power in the north of Pakistan and allowing the passage of pro-Taliban back and forth across the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, thus prolonging the hostilities there.  I don't profess to understand all the politics over there, however, I watch the delicate balance swaying this way and that way with varying levels of concern, knowing the greater implications for the rest of the world.

I admire Bhutto's bravery, I'll say that much.  She could have stayed in exile and played it safe with all her money...as l-horn said, she could have been shopping at Harrod's.  Instead, she chose to come back to Pakistan.  That takes guts, knowing you could be murdered.  Not so sure I admire how she conducted herself once there.  She had a responsibility to the people of Pakistan to keep herself safe and protected.  

While Musharraf is clearly looking to protect his own power base, one has to wonder if Bhutto would have been able to contain the Islamist threat in that country as effectively as Musharraf, not that he has done so effectively...just that I'm not quite sure who would have been able to do so MORE effectively.  And I'm concerned that Bhutto would only have been able to do so if the West had backed her militarily.  Now we'll never know.  And now the world waits to see what will happen with the upcoming elections.  
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   "I think it's a tragedy that Bhutto has been killed at this particular time in history as well.  However, let's be careful not to elevate her to total sainthood here.  She's had two terms in office already and while she was in office, she supported the Taliban and made her own contribution to their subsequent level of influence in Afghanistan.  She supported them militarily and financially as being the best option at the time and, as a result, has made her own contribution to the current problem.  While she was in power, she and her husband made alot of money off of the people of Pakistan.  She wasn't a whole lot different in that regard than alot of other leaders who serve themselves while being in power under the guise of serving their people.   There are a number of people who resent her family as having made their riches off the backs of the poor of Pakistan without improving their plight" as you said.

I hadn't heard she supported the Taliban. Interesting. I think or at least her motivations were to support democracy. It took guts to go back to Pakistan. I haven't read that much about her and am learning here....  Where did you get your info on her supporting the Taliban?  

4C;  Nice post

Linda

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I had read scant references to Bhutto's support for the Taliban in the past and found it a bit incredulous at first particularly since she'd been touted as the answer to Pakistan's prayers...so I spent some time researching her to get a more accurate picture of her history.  I always knew about the corruption charges but only surface knowledge.  I really shouldn't have been surprised.  Allegiances change throughout history sometimes and it's a matter of picking your lesser evil at any given time, it seems.

I think Bhutto was in favour of democracy as well and I think that her time in exile did her outlook some good.  Just the same, we're talking about Pakistan.  Musharraf has had to play both ends against the middle and he pretends to the U.S. that he's giving them what they want while at the same time, he brokers deals with militants in his own country to keep things from spiralling out of control there too. I think he HAS to do that sometimes and so he dances to various tunes including that of his own personal ambitions and the tune of billions of dollars being poured into the country if he does the West's dance.  Bhutto has done and might have continued to do the same..and might have NEEDED to do the same.  I was really watching with some skepticism of the whole process because what the West demands isn't necessarily how things should be.  We apply this one-size-fits-all democracy .. and some countries have some cleaning up to do before they get there.  
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" She could have stayed in exile and played it safe with all her money... Instead, she chose to come back to Pakistan.  That takes guts, knowing you could be murdered.  Not so sure I admire how she conducted herself once there.  She had a responsibility to the people of Pakistan to keep herself safe and protected.'

The responsibility was that of the Pakistani government, which REFUSED to offer assistance.  That's how she was almost assassinated 2 months ago.  That's why she emailed  a Washington friend pointing the finger at Mussharef as being responsible for her death, if it occurred, becasue he was deliberately withholding protection.

I certainly was not intending to convey the idea I am 'elevating' Bhutto to sainthood.  I Personally, I don't believe in saints or sainthood, just flawed, tragic, sometimes heroic humans..

And as far as her exposing herself to danger, that's what REAL people do:  She HAD taken on the role;  one of the unwritten laws of successful politicians is access to the people.  I think of the best politicians as consumate performers.  

So let's grieve the noble lady's death and admit that it was a tragedy, especially as it's replayed day in, day out, on TV sets all over the world, for everyone to see, including her family, her children, her supporters, her relatives.  That makes the whole thing even more poignant.

wyn

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Interesting about her supporting the Taliban, seems as though she did change. I know that Musharref spent the money we sent him to stop the terrorism in the NW of Pakistan on his own military and not on fighting terrorism. He seems to be out for himself and his safety from the terrorist. Still don't get why we can be in Iraq and not on the Afgan/ Pakistan border looking for the real terrorists who took down the towers.

Wyn;  Yes, I agree that we should be sad and I know it was a tragedy for her to die as she did. I would like to know who really is responsible.
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My money's on the ones who are backing musharref.

IMHO, the reason 'we're' not on the afghan border is coz some people are making a ton of money.  
.
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I think you are right about Musharref.  He has put the money we gave him for fighting terrorists into a military backing him.  Otherwise those Taliban and Al Queda most likely would have gotten rid of him.

Who is making a ton of money off of not being at the border?  I heard today, actually from Huckabee, that we had a target on Bin Laden and it was called off getting him. What's up with that?  
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There are all kinds of issues;  the proposed oil pipeline through Afghanistan linking the Caspian sea, Turkey,  iraq;  The oil shortage in india......Follow the oil, follow the money and the answers just seem to appear.

I don't research this stuff frequently but if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.  (IMHO)

BTW, I'm not conviced money was given to M to 'fight' 'terrorism,'.  that's just another catch phrase, another marketing ploy, another all too mindless easily disseminated slogan.

money was given to him, but why?  And 15 billion is the amount the US spends in iraq weekly.

i just don't believe anyone, Linda.  I'm cynical that way.  that's why i never would have started a strictly political thread.  The Bhutto assassination just struck a deep chord in me;  reminded me of the JFK and RFK footage.

wyn
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I sure remember those days. I think everyone remembers where they were the day JFK was shot.  I sure do. I was in grammar school and still remember. I remember where I was when John Lennon was shot too. I was at a Stevie Wonder concert. He sang "Happy Birthday" by Lennon.  That was powerful and so sad!

Follow the oil, sounds about right. Have you seen Charlie Wilson's War?  Great flick.     I never read the news from local or popular sources, always went elsewhere to get my info. Haven't had the energy to do so these days.  Thanks for the links and any more you can give me will be great!  

Linda

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There are no movie theaters near where I live, now, and the few within driving range tend to run action flicks and kids stuff.  When Charlie Wilson's War comes out on DVD I'll probably rent it.

wyn
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Forgot to mention;  in that site I posted, go to
Main Menu
Latest headlines

so you can bypass ALL the junk!  Like I said, ya gotta sift through it.

wyn
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I was just talking to someone about spiritual things that have happened to me. Like owls flying by and signs of things that make a difference in the way we see the universe. Prayer doesn't just belong to those that believe in organized religions. Mine seems to be more based on the native thoughts of nature. Just thought I would throw that into the mix. Perhaps there is a plan after all for Pakistan. Hopefully good, we sure don't have much say in it, do we?  

I know you love your outdoors and so do I. No neighbors, just nature. I do have theaters close enough, but my home in the mountains doesn't.  We are small in this world and as someone said about gathering as a group. Don't think that will happen in this issue, but at least for the issue of Hep C, we are together.  

Rent that movie!  Send me more links.

Thinking of you sweet one!
Linda
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just emailed you some stuff you might find interesting.

wyn
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Got it. Thanks!
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What's with this phony autopsy report put out from the govt!  Unbelievable they can actually say she wasn't shot!  Obviously they now have more evidence that she was shot (not from the govt).  Now govt. sources say it doesn't matter how she died.  Sure sounds slimy to me. I hope they call for a international investigation.
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I suppose that's why i was immediately struck by this.

From the first video on breaking news, to today, 5 days after the tragedy, my gut instinct is still;

COVER-UP!  COVER-UP!  

I will continue to follow and research this, linda, and i will email you anything else i find out and hope you will do the same for me.

wyn
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I will keep up with it too, but the damn energy is so bad along with other suff in my life right now.  Thanks!

Sure does sound like a cover up to me. Why would they come out with some phony report?  They should have said nothing. Makes them sound guilty as hell.
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Just found an interesting site....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/29/benazir-bhutto-assassinat_n_78385.html
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good site, though a little dated (dec. 29).

I think the trail is gonna lead right back to this country.

There have been 4 conflicting explanations given so far by the Pakistani government.  the latest, about the sun-roof 'latch', is so ridiculous it's almost funny.

wyn
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Yep,  the 4 expanations are ridiculous.  Interesting you think it will lead to our country...haven't read all the sites. YOu are up on this girl!
Linda
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Here's some non-US news commentary:

http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article3295851.ece

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Thanks for that.  i will checkit later.  I'd appreciate any othr links you're aware of.

HNY,

Wyntre
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Thanks for posting this article.  A very good read.  I am more interested in the take of people with a connection to the region who have some understanding of the history and current climate of Pakistan's politics.  If Bhutto was truly interested in democracy, it wouldn't matter if her family led the PPP.  It should be led by the most capable representative of the people.  However, democracy in Pakistan is a far cry from democracy in Canada or the U.S.  This is far from a black and white situation.
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' I am more interested in the take of people with a connection to the region who have some understanding of the history and current climate of Pakistan's politics'

Are you referring to posters on this thread?

Do you live in the region, yourself?

What makes you think that people with a so-called 'connection to the region' don't have an agenda?

not that I ['m referring to dointime's article.  I just skimmed it and  the basic premise seems to be it's odd to have a 19-year-old inherit the mantle to the PPP.   I agree.   I also think the same thing happens here, all the time.  And I don't agree with that, either.

You seem to have fixated on the idea that since I expressed sorrow for the passing of
a historically significant person, that somehow blinds me to the shortcomings of that person.  

I suppose you're the only one who can see the truth?

wyntre


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Wow.  Where to start.  

' I am more interested in the take of people with a connection to the region who have some understanding of the history and current climate of Pakistan's politics'

Are you referring to posters on this thread?
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First of all, unequivocally no.  I'm not referring to ANY posters on this thread when I said I was more interested in the take of people with a connection to Pakistan and it's politics.  I was referring to journalists, commentators and anyone writing articles on this situation.  I feel that, while there are those Western writers who can write intelligent and incisive pieces, the pieces that interest me MOST are those who have a personal stake in the process, i.e. they still do or used to live there and deeply care about it from a very personal perspective.  The writer of the article dointime posted says his heart bleeds for Pakistan.  That is pretty much how I feel.  I don't bleed for any of their leaders so much, although I do feel Bhutto's death was tragic.  I bleed most for the people of Pakistan through all this, as they are the biggest casualties here.  I never really believed in the motives of ANY of the leaders of the political parties in the Pakistan election.  I feel they all had ulterior motives of some kind and that none were completely noble in their intent.  That seems to be the nature of Pakistan politics up until now and I don't think having the backing of the West is the magic cure for that and might actually be the poison pill instead.

Do you live in the region, yourself?
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No.  I don't live in the region.  I don't see what that has to do with anything as nobody else here commenting does either. I live in the hinterland known as Canada.  That's precisely why I am particularly interested in the comments of those who either live there, used to live there or have some sort of deeper connection than I do.  I have long been interested in global politics because I feel that what happens in the world has impact on everybody else in the world to varying degrees and to ignore what's going on in other parts of the world, we do so at our peril.  That's just me.  

What makes you think that people with a so-called 'connection to the region' don't have an agenda?
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I never suggested they don't have an agenda.  I simply said their insights interest me more.  In my mind, everybody has an agenda, Wyn.  Everybody has their own bias.  So that's why I like to read from a variety of sources and I consider the source, their particular bias and their level of credibility. I try and take my OWN bias into account as well, as I certainly have one, as do you.  I try to remain objective and open-minded as my MAIN goal is to learn and educate myself and be aware.  However, I do approach things from a certain ideological perspective, as do we all.  To try and balance this, I read from various news sources that are both liberal and conservative and inbetween.  There are two main publications in Canada, one purportedly Conservative and the other Liberal.  So I make myself read them both.  I read online political discussions (and yes, participate in them) and learn much more from reading these and the insights of various people than I do from the articles themselves alot of the time.  My goal, as cheesy as it sounds, is enlightenment.  

I liked the article dointime posted because it presented a meaty amount of information and perspectives that seemed more objective than a number of the articles I've been reading.  It seemed to be written more from the perspective of how this impacts the people of Pakistan as a whole rather than from a particular biased ideology and I learned a great deal from it.  That is why I liked reading it.

You seem to have fixated on the idea that since I expressed sorrow for the passing of
a historically significant person, that somehow blinds me to the shortcomings of that person.  
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I'm not "fixated" on that.  I simply wanted to present an alternate perspective on Bhutto and some food for thought. I am not as sold on her as others and it seems you took my comments as disrespect. Perhaps those comments were out of place in retrospect in this particular thread and would have been better suited to another type of discussion on Pakistan politics in general.  You started this as a tribute almost to Bhutto it seems, and so I went quiet, not being able to join in the chorus to the degree that you and others were and not wanting to cause further acrimony.

I suppose you're the only one who can see the truth?
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I'm going to try not to let that comment **** me off too much.  The truth is a kaleidoscope, Wyn.  If you turn it one way, it looks like the truth is pink.  If you turn it another way, you'd swear it was blue.  To me, you have to turn it all around and get the full spectrum to get closer to the actual truth.  Therefore, I enjoy discussing things with people so that I see colours from another perspective and learn more. I may not like some of what I see or hear but it's absolutely essential that I entertain other points of view. Some people will fight to the death to defend their particular colour of the truth to the exclusion and disregard of all others and that is what we have going on in the world today.  If you don't like the particular colour of my contribution to the prism, I can't help that.  I may not like yours either...but I'm still interested in hearing it and I will take it into account and consider it.  

I sincerely respect your desire to understand this issue, Wyn, and I mean you no disrespect.  Your starting this thread has pushed me to read up on this more than I might have and I've quite appreciated what you've started here.  I apologize for any offense to you, Wyn.  None was intended.

Trish






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I can't get onto that link!  I would like to but it comes up as a mistake in java.
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I agree with what you say about reading all the sides. It seems unless you are there you can really never know.  So we have to rely on mags and papers from people of various agendas.  I too like to read stuff, especially overseas as they have such a different take than Americans. There are few news sources I truly believe, as you say they all have there own truth.  

I too am here for enlightenment and enjoy your take on this issue.  Whether we like what we hear or not, we are getting lots of different views.  

Linda
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I saved the link to PC yesterday but it's disappeared.  I'll see if I copied it to mydocs.

I agree it's good to hear ALL perspectives and it's also good not to ASSUME that any of us get our info from only one source.

I also agree much of the national news reporting is heavily biased, either to one side or the other.

wyn
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Thanks, for some reason I can't get to that site Dointime put here.  
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You asked for any other links.  I find the London Financial TImes sometimes has something to say.  Some of the links here will be for subscribers only but there's also enough free stuff.  

http://www.ft.com/indepth/pakistan
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Sometimes the site for the 'independent' goes down.  You might get that link if you try again another time.  I'm not sure how long it stays valid for but after a while the article isn't available any more.  

dt.    
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Thanks.

I'm gonna bookmark that site.

I lost the article you posted yesterday, too.  I thought I'd saved it but nooooo . . . and it wasn't valid today.  

I did skim through it and the gist of it seemed to be a discussion of the 'dynasty'  factor.  

Ironically, there have been only 2 families in charge of the white house for the past 16 years.

thanks DT and HNY.   :)

wyn
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Thanks!  Geez, I thought it was a Mac vs. PC problem. lol Glad to hear my Mac isn't bad anymore. lol  I will check it again.  
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Oh and I forgot the one and only, the good old beeb:
www.bbc.co.uk

Happy reading.

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Thanks,  I will hope my Mac will get this link!  lol
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Hi Trish,

I  really enjoyed your thoughtful response to my somewhat snipish post.

I do apologize to you.  Sometimes the riba rage takes over as I'm posting.  Yes, i did start the thread, (mistakenly - I'll never do it again) from a gut reaction within minutes of hearing the breaking news and seeing the video footage of the assassination.  It was written not from a political stance but from witnessing, live on streaming video, the tragedy of the human condition, which is my main interest.

And perhaps I was also responding to that sinking-in-the-pit-of-the-stomach-sensation.

I think I owe you a public apology.

Sorry.

Wyntre
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Wyn, takes a big person to say such things publicly.  Thank you for your private note as well.  Sometimes things get the best of me too and I've found myself eating a l'il crow on occasion.  You've already got my apology above for my own part in the situation.  I say we spit and shake on it.  :)

I look forward to more discussions.  Don't stop posting what you want to, Wyn.  It's like a box of chocolates though...you never know what you're gonna get. :)  (I think Forrest Gump's mama said that...)

Take care, Wyn.

Trish

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Ummmmmmmm...... could we compromise and just shake, instead?   :)

wyn
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Done. :)
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You girls are lucky you are on this thread instead of the other.  This one is a piece of cake!  lol  Forsee made some pretty good posts on the election one. She is long winded and made some great points.  At least we are more civil on this thread!  
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