Aa
Benazir butto dead
She was killed today in a suicide bombing.
It's so tragic.
wyntre
It's so tragic.
wyntre
You girls are lucky you are on this thread instead of the other. This one is a piece of cake! lol Forsee made some pretty good posts on the election one. She is long winded and made some great points. At least we are more civil on this thread!
Wyn, takes a big person to say such things publicly. Thank you for your private note as well. Sometimes things get the best of me too and I've found myself eating a l'il crow on occasion. You've already got my apology above for my own part in the situation. I say we spit and shake on it. :)
I look forward to more discussions. Don't stop posting what you want to, Wyn. It's like a box of chocolates though...you never know what you're gonna get. :) (I think Forrest Gump's mama said that...)
Take care, Wyn.
Trish
I look forward to more discussions. Don't stop posting what you want to, Wyn. It's like a box of chocolates though...you never know what you're gonna get. :) (I think Forrest Gump's mama said that...)
Take care, Wyn.
Trish
Hi Trish,
I really enjoyed your thoughtful response to my somewhat snipish post.
I do apologize to you. Sometimes the riba rage takes over as I'm posting. Yes, i did start the thread, (mistakenly - I'll never do it again) from a gut reaction within minutes of hearing the breaking news and seeing the video footage of the assassination. It was written not from a political stance but from witnessing, live on streaming video, the tragedy of the human condition, which is my main interest.
And perhaps I was also responding to that sinking-in-the-pit-of-the-stomach-sensation.
I think I owe you a public apology.
Sorry.
Wyntre
I really enjoyed your thoughtful response to my somewhat snipish post.
I do apologize to you. Sometimes the riba rage takes over as I'm posting. Yes, i did start the thread, (mistakenly - I'll never do it again) from a gut reaction within minutes of hearing the breaking news and seeing the video footage of the assassination. It was written not from a political stance but from witnessing, live on streaming video, the tragedy of the human condition, which is my main interest.
And perhaps I was also responding to that sinking-in-the-pit-of-the-stomach-sensation.
I think I owe you a public apology.
Sorry.
Wyntre
Thanks! Geez, I thought it was a Mac vs. PC problem. lol Glad to hear my Mac isn't bad anymore. lol I will check it again.
Thanks.
I'm gonna bookmark that site.
I lost the article you posted yesterday, too. I thought I'd saved it but nooooo . . . and it wasn't valid today.
I did skim through it and the gist of it seemed to be a discussion of the 'dynasty' factor.
Ironically, there have been only 2 families in charge of the white house for the past 16 years.
thanks DT and HNY. :)
wyn
I'm gonna bookmark that site.
I lost the article you posted yesterday, too. I thought I'd saved it but nooooo . . . and it wasn't valid today.
I did skim through it and the gist of it seemed to be a discussion of the 'dynasty' factor.
Ironically, there have been only 2 families in charge of the white house for the past 16 years.
thanks DT and HNY. :)
wyn
Sometimes the site for the 'independent' goes down. You might get that link if you try again another time. I'm not sure how long it stays valid for but after a while the article isn't available any more.
dt.
dt.
You asked for any other links. I find the London Financial TImes sometimes has something to say. Some of the links here will be for subscribers only but there's also enough free stuff.
http://www.ft.com/indepth/pakistan
http://www.ft.com/indepth/pakistan
I saved the link to PC yesterday but it's disappeared. I'll see if I copied it to mydocs.
I agree it's good to hear ALL perspectives and it's also good not to ASSUME that any of us get our info from only one source.
I also agree much of the national news reporting is heavily biased, either to one side or the other.
wyn
I agree it's good to hear ALL perspectives and it's also good not to ASSUME that any of us get our info from only one source.
I also agree much of the national news reporting is heavily biased, either to one side or the other.
wyn
I agree with what you say about reading all the sides. It seems unless you are there you can really never know. So we have to rely on mags and papers from people of various agendas. I too like to read stuff, especially overseas as they have such a different take than Americans. There are few news sources I truly believe, as you say they all have there own truth.
I too am here for enlightenment and enjoy your take on this issue. Whether we like what we hear or not, we are getting lots of different views.
Linda
I too am here for enlightenment and enjoy your take on this issue. Whether we like what we hear or not, we are getting lots of different views.
Linda
Wow. Where to start.
' I am more interested in the take of people with a connection to the region who have some understanding of the history and current climate of Pakistan's politics'
Are you referring to posters on this thread?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, unequivocally no. I'm not referring to ANY posters on this thread when I said I was more interested in the take of people with a connection to Pakistan and it's politics. I was referring to journalists, commentators and anyone writing articles on this situation. I feel that, while there are those Western writers who can write intelligent and incisive pieces, the pieces that interest me MOST are those who have a personal stake in the process, i.e. they still do or used to live there and deeply care about it from a very personal perspective. The writer of the article dointime posted says his heart bleeds for Pakistan. That is pretty much how I feel. I don't bleed for any of their leaders so much, although I do feel Bhutto's death was tragic. I bleed most for the people of Pakistan through all this, as they are the biggest casualties here. I never really believed in the motives of ANY of the leaders of the political parties in the Pakistan election. I feel they all had ulterior motives of some kind and that none were completely noble in their intent. That seems to be the nature of Pakistan politics up until now and I don't think having the backing of the West is the magic cure for that and might actually be the poison pill instead.
Do you live in the region, yourself?
----------------------------------------------------------
No. I don't live in the region. I don't see what that has to do with anything as nobody else here commenting does either. I live in the hinterland known as Canada. That's precisely why I am particularly interested in the comments of those who either live there, used to live there or have some sort of deeper connection than I do. I have long been interested in global politics because I feel that what happens in the world has impact on everybody else in the world to varying degrees and to ignore what's going on in other parts of the world, we do so at our peril. That's just me.
What makes you think that people with a so-called 'connection to the region' don't have an agenda?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never suggested they don't have an agenda. I simply said their insights interest me more. In my mind, everybody has an agenda, Wyn. Everybody has their own bias. So that's why I like to read from a variety of sources and I consider the source, their particular bias and their level of credibility. I try and take my OWN bias into account as well, as I certainly have one, as do you. I try to remain objective and open-minded as my MAIN goal is to learn and educate myself and be aware. However, I do approach things from a certain ideological perspective, as do we all. To try and balance this, I read from various news sources that are both liberal and conservative and inbetween. There are two main publications in Canada, one purportedly Conservative and the other Liberal. So I make myself read them both. I read online political discussions (and yes, participate in them) and learn much more from reading these and the insights of various people than I do from the articles themselves alot of the time. My goal, as cheesy as it sounds, is enlightenment.
I liked the article dointime posted because it presented a meaty amount of information and perspectives that seemed more objective than a number of the articles I've been reading. It seemed to be written more from the perspective of how this impacts the people of Pakistan as a whole rather than from a particular biased ideology and I learned a great deal from it. That is why I liked reading it.
You seem to have fixated on the idea that since I expressed sorrow for the passing of
a historically significant person, that somehow blinds me to the shortcomings of that person.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not "fixated" on that. I simply wanted to present an alternate perspective on Bhutto and some food for thought. I am not as sold on her as others and it seems you took my comments as disrespect. Perhaps those comments were out of place in retrospect in this particular thread and would have been better suited to another type of discussion on Pakistan politics in general. You started this as a tribute almost to Bhutto it seems, and so I went quiet, not being able to join in the chorus to the degree that you and others were and not wanting to cause further acrimony.
I suppose you're the only one who can see the truth?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to try not to let that comment **** me off too much. The truth is a kaleidoscope, Wyn. If you turn it one way, it looks like the truth is pink. If you turn it another way, you'd swear it was blue. To me, you have to turn it all around and get the full spectrum to get closer to the actual truth. Therefore, I enjoy discussing things with people so that I see colours from another perspective and learn more. I may not like some of what I see or hear but it's absolutely essential that I entertain other points of view. Some people will fight to the death to defend their particular colour of the truth to the exclusion and disregard of all others and that is what we have going on in the world today. If you don't like the particular colour of my contribution to the prism, I can't help that. I may not like yours either...but I'm still interested in hearing it and I will take it into account and consider it.
I sincerely respect your desire to understand this issue, Wyn, and I mean you no disrespect. Your starting this thread has pushed me to read up on this more than I might have and I've quite appreciated what you've started here. I apologize for any offense to you, Wyn. None was intended.
Trish
' I am more interested in the take of people with a connection to the region who have some understanding of the history and current climate of Pakistan's politics'
Are you referring to posters on this thread?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, unequivocally no. I'm not referring to ANY posters on this thread when I said I was more interested in the take of people with a connection to Pakistan and it's politics. I was referring to journalists, commentators and anyone writing articles on this situation. I feel that, while there are those Western writers who can write intelligent and incisive pieces, the pieces that interest me MOST are those who have a personal stake in the process, i.e. they still do or used to live there and deeply care about it from a very personal perspective. The writer of the article dointime posted says his heart bleeds for Pakistan. That is pretty much how I feel. I don't bleed for any of their leaders so much, although I do feel Bhutto's death was tragic. I bleed most for the people of Pakistan through all this, as they are the biggest casualties here. I never really believed in the motives of ANY of the leaders of the political parties in the Pakistan election. I feel they all had ulterior motives of some kind and that none were completely noble in their intent. That seems to be the nature of Pakistan politics up until now and I don't think having the backing of the West is the magic cure for that and might actually be the poison pill instead.
Do you live in the region, yourself?
----------------------------------------------------------
No. I don't live in the region. I don't see what that has to do with anything as nobody else here commenting does either. I live in the hinterland known as Canada. That's precisely why I am particularly interested in the comments of those who either live there, used to live there or have some sort of deeper connection than I do. I have long been interested in global politics because I feel that what happens in the world has impact on everybody else in the world to varying degrees and to ignore what's going on in other parts of the world, we do so at our peril. That's just me.
What makes you think that people with a so-called 'connection to the region' don't have an agenda?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never suggested they don't have an agenda. I simply said their insights interest me more. In my mind, everybody has an agenda, Wyn. Everybody has their own bias. So that's why I like to read from a variety of sources and I consider the source, their particular bias and their level of credibility. I try and take my OWN bias into account as well, as I certainly have one, as do you. I try to remain objective and open-minded as my MAIN goal is to learn and educate myself and be aware. However, I do approach things from a certain ideological perspective, as do we all. To try and balance this, I read from various news sources that are both liberal and conservative and inbetween. There are two main publications in Canada, one purportedly Conservative and the other Liberal. So I make myself read them both. I read online political discussions (and yes, participate in them) and learn much more from reading these and the insights of various people than I do from the articles themselves alot of the time. My goal, as cheesy as it sounds, is enlightenment.
I liked the article dointime posted because it presented a meaty amount of information and perspectives that seemed more objective than a number of the articles I've been reading. It seemed to be written more from the perspective of how this impacts the people of Pakistan as a whole rather than from a particular biased ideology and I learned a great deal from it. That is why I liked reading it.
You seem to have fixated on the idea that since I expressed sorrow for the passing of
a historically significant person, that somehow blinds me to the shortcomings of that person.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not "fixated" on that. I simply wanted to present an alternate perspective on Bhutto and some food for thought. I am not as sold on her as others and it seems you took my comments as disrespect. Perhaps those comments were out of place in retrospect in this particular thread and would have been better suited to another type of discussion on Pakistan politics in general. You started this as a tribute almost to Bhutto it seems, and so I went quiet, not being able to join in the chorus to the degree that you and others were and not wanting to cause further acrimony.
I suppose you're the only one who can see the truth?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to try not to let that comment **** me off too much. The truth is a kaleidoscope, Wyn. If you turn it one way, it looks like the truth is pink. If you turn it another way, you'd swear it was blue. To me, you have to turn it all around and get the full spectrum to get closer to the actual truth. Therefore, I enjoy discussing things with people so that I see colours from another perspective and learn more. I may not like some of what I see or hear but it's absolutely essential that I entertain other points of view. Some people will fight to the death to defend their particular colour of the truth to the exclusion and disregard of all others and that is what we have going on in the world today. If you don't like the particular colour of my contribution to the prism, I can't help that. I may not like yours either...but I'm still interested in hearing it and I will take it into account and consider it.
I sincerely respect your desire to understand this issue, Wyn, and I mean you no disrespect. Your starting this thread has pushed me to read up on this more than I might have and I've quite appreciated what you've started here. I apologize for any offense to you, Wyn. None was intended.
Trish
' I am more interested in the take of people with a connection to the region who have some understanding of the history and current climate of Pakistan's politics'
Are you referring to posters on this thread?
Do you live in the region, yourself?
What makes you think that people with a so-called 'connection to the region' don't have an agenda?
not that I ['m referring to dointime's article. I just skimmed it and the basic premise seems to be it's odd to have a 19-year-old inherit the mantle to the PPP. I agree. I also think the same thing happens here, all the time. And I don't agree with that, either.
You seem to have fixated on the idea that since I expressed sorrow for the passing of
a historically significant person, that somehow blinds me to the shortcomings of that person.
I suppose you're the only one who can see the truth?
wyntre
Are you referring to posters on this thread?
Do you live in the region, yourself?
What makes you think that people with a so-called 'connection to the region' don't have an agenda?
not that I ['m referring to dointime's article. I just skimmed it and the basic premise seems to be it's odd to have a 19-year-old inherit the mantle to the PPP. I agree. I also think the same thing happens here, all the time. And I don't agree with that, either.
You seem to have fixated on the idea that since I expressed sorrow for the passing of
a historically significant person, that somehow blinds me to the shortcomings of that person.
I suppose you're the only one who can see the truth?
wyntre
Thanks for posting this article. A very good read. I am more interested in the take of people with a connection to the region who have some understanding of the history and current climate of Pakistan's politics. If Bhutto was truly interested in democracy, it wouldn't matter if her family led the PPP. It should be led by the most capable representative of the people. However, democracy in Pakistan is a far cry from democracy in Canada or the U.S. This is far from a black and white situation.
Thanks for that. i will checkit later. I'd appreciate any othr links you're aware of.
HNY,
Wyntre
HNY,
Wyntre
Here's some non-US news commentary:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article3295851.ece
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article3295851.ece
Yep, the 4 expanations are ridiculous. Interesting you think it will lead to our country...haven't read all the sites. YOu are up on this girl!
Linda
Linda
good site, though a little dated (dec. 29).
I think the trail is gonna lead right back to this country.
There have been 4 conflicting explanations given so far by the Pakistani government. the latest, about the sun-roof 'latch', is so ridiculous it's almost funny.
wyn
I think the trail is gonna lead right back to this country.
There have been 4 conflicting explanations given so far by the Pakistani government. the latest, about the sun-roof 'latch', is so ridiculous it's almost funny.
wyn
Just found an interesting site....
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/29/benazir-bhutto-assassinat_n_78385.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/12/29/benazir-bhutto-assassinat_n_78385.html
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