Billary Clinton Un-electable ?

Now that political discussion has been opened up here, and I guess it always was, I would like to take this opportunity to join in. With the political season upon us I want to make sure that my views, or at least, some view, is consumed by all. If you don't like this thread, please feel free to ignore it and the many others that will follow in the coming months.  

With the general election drawing near, the democrats appear to be on the road to self destruction. As James Carville said last year, 'The only people that can beat the democrats in 08 is the democrats themselvs.' No truer words have been spoken. By nominating a candidate with the highest negative voter rating of any candidate in the last 20 years, they essentially guarantee the republicans could run a monkey for president, again, and win.

But alas the republicans don't have a monkey. They do have a philanderer, a preacher, an actor, and the Manchurian Candidate, but alas, not a monkey in sight. This is bad news for the republicans although democratic voters do have a soft place in their heart for philanderers. Who would have thought 20 or 30 years ago this was a polling plus.

As usual the issues will be lost. The Iraq war has essentially fallen off the map as a major issue for voters, replaced by illegal immigration and the economy. The question is, do the democrats have anyone that can win or was Carville right ?

[wyntre9]

Why don't you volunteer for the monkey position?

Seems like something you'd be well-suited for.

wyn

[l-horn]

....and the personal attacks begin.

Okay I'll answer. I am a gibbon spider monkey. The job specifically calls for chimps.

[Trish77]

Everybody's got something to hide except me and my monkey.....

As James Carville said last year, 'The only people that can beat the democrats in 08 is the democrats themselvs.'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well ya know, l-horn...it could happen.  We had a provincial election here and the Liberals were so despised that the Conservatives could have just walked in and beat them pretty easy.  Instead....the Conservatives beat themselves.  The Conservative leader brought in a new proposed policy as an election platform and opinion polarized so strongly around that one policy that the Conservatives got beat, the Liberals got voted in once again and everybody woke up the next day supremely pissed off at both parties.  Even those who would have voted Conservative traditionally couldn't bring themselves to vote for THIS policy, it was that controversial.  The only thing that gave me any comfort was that I discovered right before the election that there is the option to cast your ballot officially as a "Decline".  It gets counted as such and noted in the official record and it essentially says "you ALL suck".  So I went to the ballot box and said "I decline my vote".  Didn't make much of a dent...but I voted and didn't have to vomit on the way out of the voting booth.  

I have seen elections turn on one really stupid misstep before ... so maybe the Democrats might not wanna count their monkeys just yet.  

[wyntre9]

Of course, even if the committee to elect shelved the rules and let you run the chimps might be offended.

Forgot abut that.

wyn

[l-horn]

Yup. Thing is, chimps eat their own poop, and I just can't hang with anyone who does that. Gibbons are the cleanest monkeys on the planet.

Sorry your feelings are hurt. Try not to lash out too much. Tomorrow is another day.

[wyntre9]

I'm playing.  i thought you were, too.  Besides, what fun is it opening up all these threads with no respondents.  Now I'm gonna go address the interferon/herpse issue.  Perhaps it's a political platform you might want to consider.  I mean even spider  monkeys get herpes.

wyn

[l-horn]

Yes they do, but I caught it from a dirty chimp. Herpes is awful btw. Hate it hate it hate it. And I KNEW better. I don't know for absolute where I got it, but I have a pretty darn good idea. At least I, unlike HER, tell people that I have it. I would never give that to someone else. It sukks huge.

[NYgirl]

Just to speak on the side of the righteous who weren't attacking anyone at all when this thread decided to pop up............

Let me just say anybody would be better than the alcoholic cocaine addict chicken who hardly was any war hero at all but daddy's spoiled rich little boy that never even left the country yet had the AUDACITY to make fun of his rival in the last election and a brother who stole the first one for himself because he couldn't win it on his own.

Oh yeah that would be the chimp.  

The day of the old white rich boy sitting on the hill shoveling **** onto the poor are hopefully almost finally at an end and no matter WHICH of the candidates wins the nomination I shall PROUDLY vote for them, Hillary, Osama anybody at all.

[R Glass]

One of the rare occasions we agree. But to be fare, we must compare. It amazes me how much JFK and George W. Bush had in common. Even though Kennedy did fight over seas, his heroism was greatly exaggerated. Both had a controversial close race. The race between JFK and Nixon was so close and with the Kennedy’s money and links to organized crime (both Governmental and Mob related), I have to question if JFK actually won the election. One supposedly was a Coke Addict (or at least admitted to doing it and admitted inhaling) and the other, a proven ***** Monger. Both blew the opportunity to keep us out of a senseless war. Oh, lest we forget, both were White and Rich.

[NYgirl]

Usually I try to pipe down on the whole subject but...once I see it open for discussion and good hard working americans such as the Clinton's being beaten up I just can't help it.

I do agree with you - politicians as a rule all have skeletons in the closet, probably from being in the privaledged upper class or something...none of them are perfect - let's just all hope whoever the next one is gets us the hell out of this war, fixes the economy and all the wasted billions of dollars and finds some way to make education and healthcare a priority.  :)  I'm not asking alot for Christmas though am i?

[sfbaygirl]

Hey, wasn't it Reagan who was in the playing in the  Bonzo movie? lol  okay guys, got to admit I am a liberal and am married to a guy who's grandfather was hosting a party for Nixon when the whole whitewater affair happened. They all ran to the bedrooms.  If it were not for the many books about my husbands grandfather on politics during the the whole  Kings of Hollywood,  I wouldn't know about this stuff. It is interesting to be semi related to these guys. 4c we haven't talked about this before. Actually I won't mention names, but all those smoking rooms and "monkeys' are historical and pretty amazingly funny.

[FullOfHope77]

I'm betting you meant watergate but not sure... personally I'm thinking they are all  faces for the same animal but what do I know... Ron Paul will get shot if he gets close and he's for sure not a rep. But Billary is likely the one as I man said but how about Billary and Ron :>)

Scotty

[sfbaygirl]

Thanks for the correction. Geez, thank goodness for Hep C political discussions. Otherwise I wouldn't post to them. lol     All to familar and funny actually.  Wasnt' it Bowling with Bonzo?  Maybe wrong again,  but funny stuff.

[Harry Potter]

Yike...you said you'd vote for anybody, Hillary or OSAMA????  I'll vote for her, but not for him.  I don't know if you know this, but he was responsible for 911, girl!  J/k.  I'm glad we can all talk & laugh about politics without getting lectured.  I remember someone (I think it was someone in this same post) who lamented George Bush--and got a lecture from another poster, who told them this is NOT the place for political talk (maybe it was on the other side of the board).  He went on to say something about "liberal garbage" or something, and the first poster apologized, but didn't demand an apology for what he said--argggh!  Anyway, it's late, I'm not making sense...but I'm just happy that this side of the board is open to other topics than our Hep C--we can all use a little lightening up sometimes!

[sfbaygirl]

Maybe I'm not the person to correct since I have already made some big blunders, but do you mean Obama?  Who in the hell would vote for Osama Bin Ladan????  Okay, we can have a laugh now.  It is late! Especially on the East coast

[l-horn]

Yup, the cat is definitely out of the bag here....most definitely.

[sfbaygirl]

Ya see why we need a political discussion for hepper's?   We would be blown outta the water on some real board. lol

BTW  I agree with what Carville said.  It is true. Just like in the last election, Gore did it to himself pretty much.  

[desrt]

Clinton/Obama's campaigns are obviously financed by the Republican party. All the democrats needed to win in 2008 was a candidate whose name wasn't Clinton and didn't rhyme with Osama. The corruption and graft associated with the rebuilding of Iraq has become so blatent at this point, the democrats could have run any unknown middle aged white guy and won.
I normally try to vote based on my opinion of an individual candidate (end up voting Libertarian, Green, Nader, whatever rather than Dem or Repub) but this time will do anything to take the ruling junta out of offfice.

[sfbaygirl]

Funny take on the names.  I used to vote green etc, but will hold my nose and vote for the dems, as you say to take the ruling junta outta office!

[R Glass]

I am a Registered Republican but that does not mean I always vote Republican. Well this is my 2 cents. All responses are welcome as long as they are mature. The only hope I see for the Democrats is to swing their support to Edwards. The face off between Hillary and Obama reminds me of the 84 democratic face off between Walter Mondale, Gary Hart, and Jesse Jackson. The perfect recipe for failure. Mondale clinched the nomination with the majority of delegates on the first ballot. Mondale was defeated in a landslide, winning only the District of Columbia (which had never been won by a Republican candidate) and his home state of Minnesota, and even there he came with in less than 3,800 votes of a total shut-out. Mondale chose Geraldine A. Ferraro as a running mate thinking it would swing more of the female and liberal vote. This back fired just as swinging the Oprah support is backfiring on Obama.Now lets look at the Republicans. Giuliani, this man has no more business running for president than Hillary or Obama. Giuliani should drop the Republican Party, switch to Democrat, and become Hillary’s Running Mate. At least they would have a “Snow Ball’s Chance in Hell” and even that would be destroyed when the “Trump Card” is played (Remember the Eye Roll Hillary did for the cameras when Bush was addressing the Nation when we was attacked on 911. Romney, his desperation concerning Huckabee is showing and needs to keep his mouth shut because it is backfiring on him.
McCain, I feel his Heroic Military background may actually hurt him because of the Iraqi War backlash.
Huckabee, If I had to choose today (and we still have a long way to go and things are subject to change daily) would get my vote, not because I agree with his Christian Views but because so far he is the only one that has the Back Bone to make a stand for what he believes and couldn’t care less about Political Correctness. If McCain and Huckabee joined forces and don’t count it out, they probably will be our next President/Vice President.

[sfbaygirl]

Interesting. I like your takes.  As a registered Democrat I can see your points.  I just wonder why Edwards?  I like him, but he isn't out there as much as Obama and Hillary.  Perhaps b/c he is the only white guy?  My asst. said to me when I mentioned my liking Obama that, "oh no, he is black."  So what, but are we ready for a black or a female president, regardless of their points on issues.  I like Obama, b/c he is for change and didn't vote for the Iraq war, as I never liked that one bit.

As far as Republicans, I like Huckabee!  As a liberal (my husband says I am so far left I go to the right!)  He sure sounds good, if you don't bring up his religion and creationism etc. But I like him.  Romney is a turncoat. He changes his views as the it suits his campaign.  Guilani,  I can't stand him. Please dont' say he could EVER be a dem.  McCain is an honest guy, but supporting this war is going to never fly IMO.  Anyway, I think I covered them all.  So why Edwards?

[R Glass]

The reason I said Edwards is not because he is White or because he is Male. It is because; he is the only Democrat that has a chance of actually pulling it off. The reason he is not out there as much is because of the Media. My Giuliani comment was just a shot in the dark hoping ya’ll would take him (LOL)

[sfbaygirl]

LOL, sorry I won't take Guiliani!!  But I still wonder about the gender and race thing.  Do you think it will have effect in the election? Me, I want to embrace these two, but knowing the whole political scheme and the little parts of this country, I worry about this. Do you think it makes a difference?

[sfbaygirl]

Bottom line, do you think this country is ready for a woman or a black?  I have my doubts that the country is ready for this. No one is talking about it, at least I haven't heard it.  I sure hope we are ready, but are we?  I sure wonder...

[R Glass]

   As far as the country being ready for a Woman President, we probably are but, it would have to be the right woman and I have to be honest, Hillary is not the one. Adding insult to injury our own Ex Governor Blanco (Louisiana) did not help the cause by the way she handled Hurricane Katrina and instead of taking the responsibility for her own failure she blamed everyone but herself. At first, she actually refused help from the Federal Government because it would not been done according to her terms, causing the untold deaths of New Orleans.
As far as the country being ready for a Black President, we may be but it would be tough and, it would have to be the right Black President and I have to be honest, Obama is not the one. Obama’s skin color is the least of his problems and could actually be the only thing he has going for him. I personally do not think that the mainstream white vote is going to support a candidate that makes racism an issue. So, it will be damned if he (or she) does or damned he don’t. If racism is blamed for the deterioration of inner city public schools, the increasing black crime rate, and the deterioration Black family structure. The Black candidate will not get the white mainstream vote. If the Black candidate does not blame racism for these issues, he will be labeled an Uncle Tom by Professional Problem Entrepreneurs like Jackson and Sharpton and risk loosing the Black vote. The sad thing is, you asked my honest opinion and I gave it to you. Now watch all of the post come in accusing me of being a racist.

[ladywhy]

yea Hillary might be the way to go....maybe she is continuing to 'channel' Eleanor Roosevelt. Eleanor was a pretty smart lady who truly cared for the less unfortunate and did something about it. The only problem I have with that is, no matter what New Ager's and so-called psychic's say....you can't get feedback from the dead. I fear for where this country is headed..but especially so if that woman became the next President. Too scary to contemplate....

The only good thing I can say about Hil is she looks better now than when she was in her 20's or 30's....

[sfbaygirl]

I don't think you will be stomped just yet. LOL  Your honest assessment seems pretty reasonable to my extremely liberal viewpoint.   Not bad, huh?  I may not agree with some of your assessments of these Dems, you make good valid points.  As I said before, I really don't think this country is ready for a Hillary or Obama, mainly because or race and gender.  I like their politics on many things, but how come no one is talking about the only woman or the only black ever to run?  Remember Geraldine?  No one wanted to talk about gender much....well perhaps more than now.  Just worries me for my party.

[beamishboy]

edwards  is the best candidate that the democratic party could offer this nation..and he seems to be gaining on the media favorites.cripes rove&bush annointed hillary ,that should be the kiss of death.....and she is my senator.

[beamishboy]

oh,one more thing-screw james carville.....

[Mr Liver]

you almost had me to the end and then you hit me with Huckabee line. Right or wrong, as soon as Huckabee starts to speak I hear and see Gomer Pyle -sahazam!!

[R Glass]

Thanks for getting my 2008 off to a depressing start. Now I have deal with the fact that  Gomer Pyle is the best we have to offer for The Leader of The Greatest Super Power in the World. Thanks A lot.

[wyntre9]

Oprama has been given a FREE pass by the media.  Even they admit that.  It's well known they HATE HC.  Heck, they even bad-mouth her daughter.

Why hasn't it been widely publicized that Oprama's church follows these precepts;

'Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the Black Community
3. Commitment to the Black Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.'

Can't wait to see the responses to that.   Hey, R Glass, ya got a pair of good steel toed anti-stompers i can borrow?  *LOL*

As far as the other candidates,  it's unfortunate  Dodd, Biden, McCain don't have the necessary financial support.

wyn

BTW - Happy New year everyone.

[R Glass]

Like I said in another thread “It’s the Hypocrisy that bothers me the most.” If you were to take these 12 concepts and replace the word “Black” with the word “White,” you would think David Duke or George Wallace wrote them. This is why I said it would be tough for a Black Candidate to when the Presidency. As long as Lunatics like Farrakhan is praised for his rhetoric and no one has the guts to stand up against him and Icons like Bill Cosby is rebuked for speaking the truth, nothing will change.

[wyntre9]

“It’s the Hypocrisy that bothers me the most.” If you were to take these 12 concepts and replace the word “Black” with the word “White....”

That's my point.  Replace 'Black' with ANYTHING else; Hispanic, gay, women, Native American, etc. and the effect would be similar.

Most such groups would have been under attack by the media:  Look at the hatchet job being done on Huckabee and Romney?  And I'm even traditionally religious.  i don't identify with ANY group;  I have my own, idiosyncratic, individual views which I try my best not to inflict or impose on anyone else.

but the medi hasn't said ANYTHING about Oprama's religious affiliation.  Guess everyone's scared of non-politically-correct fallout.

I spent enough time in the trenches of the "politically-correct-center-of the-universe; the American public education system" to know it's the most hypocritical ridiculous
crock-of-bull imagineable.

yeah . . . I hate hypocrisy,  AKA brainwashing.

wyn

[l-horn]

seeing us do this to ourselves.

I posted this thread to make a point...and apparently FAILED.

I think we're playing with fire here.

But, keep it up....burn down the place that helped you for so many months and gave you comfort in the storm.

I'm out. I will not participate in this.

[wyntre9]

oh - i see - but it's ok to say BILLARY and then you were just posting this thread to make a point?

the old 'Do as I say but not as I do' dance?

Gimmeabreak.

wyn

[FullOfHope77]

after your comments in the previous thread to that end... my comments were to keep pushing everyone back to the middle where we did get our help. i've gotten a lot of comfort and support here and hate to think that politics has ANYTHING to do with it... my 2

Scotty

[ladywhy]

come on L-horn...don't be so dramatic. It's just another discussion/debate. I don't think this place will burn down or close shop over  dissention. Actually...I think it important to be able to air our views...I like to hear what others are thinkin' even when I don't agree. Obviously there are other's (not talkin' about you.) who get really irate when they are not agreed with and who don't seem to think other's have a  right to oppose and state (what they see as) their own valid points of view. I jus figure it's the drugs...and don't take it very seriously.

[R Glass]

I do see lhorn’s concern about this thread. So far we have been fortunate to mostly have Mature and Intelligent Members post on this thread. This could very easily change by just one Immature Idiot making a post.

I have found this thread (for the most part) Respectful, Educational, and Stimulating. What I see is Democrats, Republicans, Liberals, Conservatives, etc. asking each other for their viewpoints and expressing their own. Although there were conflicting view points, there were few personal attacks. We may not agree with each other but I think we understand each other a little more. Here are some examples, Nygirl and me probably wouldn’t agree if we talked all night (other than the fact that Bush is a Goober) and the conversations would get heated at times but, even though we would disagree I think we would walk away respecting each other’s position. SFBayGirl is a Far Left Liberal while I am a Far Right Conservative. We could sit and discuss politics, probably agree on a lot of issues. The end result would probably be more laughter than Heated Debate. Now there is Wyntre, and me since we agree on most issues, I think we should join forces and throw our hat in the ring. I see it this way, Wyntre can be president and since you are female you should be able to pull in Nygirl and sfbaygirl’s support. I will be Vice President. There is not much to do as Vice President and let’s face it, I am lazy

[wyntre9]

Oh Nooooooooo . . . . .

Don't you DARE pin the 'P' word on me!  *LOL*

Ironically, I have no religious OR political affiliation as my views, such as they are, drift all over the place.  In fact, if i was FORCED to label myself one thing or another, it would probably be an ANARCHIST!

After rereading what I posted, i realized I might have crossed the line in terms of this forum and perhaps L-Horn does have a point.

Here's what I emailed to a buddy:

'Heck, I'm not for ANYONE in this darn election but i do listen to and watch as much as I can and when you have some people forced to call a press conference to defend their belief systems while others are never even confronted with the impact of their religious affiliation, it just burns me up."

IMHO, the problem is one of journalistic cowardice more than anything else.  

I just think everyone should be held to the same standards, whatever their gender, race or religion.

I promise I'll be good now and i sincerely apologize to anyone I may have offended.  For real.  :)

wyntre

[sfbaygirl]

LOL  I agree, except I want the VP position. I am pretty lazy myself these days.  

[sfbaygirl]

Okay,  watched CNN's election bowl today.  I take everything back I said nice about Huckabee. Did anyone see his blunder regarding Pakistan and our borders?  I almost wished I had recorded it. I heard about this blooper before, but never saw the whole speech. Geez!  Bet he was hiding his head when they showed this again!!  Gotta say,  there were more things I disagreed with today.  But I think he was a real mench for taking down the attacking ad about Romney yesterday.

[sfbaygirl]

Okay, we will just pin the big "A" on you.  lol

[wyntre9]

Just call me Hester.  (g)

On second thought ........never mind.

wyn

[sfbaygirl]

We aren't supposed to talk to those that are shunned are we?  lol

[wyntre9]

Who's doing the shunning?  

Poor Hester.

wyn

[sfbaygirl]

You know that if you have that big red 'A' on your chest no one is supposed to talk to you!!!! LOL  

[R Glass]

I never said he was the sharpest tool in the shed. I just said that he has the Back Bone to stand up for what he believes.  Even though he chose his words poorly you must agree, it is a lot easier for an Illegal Mid Easterner to cross our borders through Mexico than Canada.
This is his actual comments. He also made a few other un thought through comments. You would think that after watching Bush for the last 8 years, he would grasp the concept "Silence is Golden"
On Thursday night he told reporters in Orlando, Fla.: “We ought to have an immediate, very clear monitoring of our borders and particularly to make sure if there’s any unusual activity of Pakistanis coming into the country.”
On Friday, in Pella, Iowa, he expanded on those remarks.
“When I say single them out I am making the observation that we have more Pakistani illegal’s coming across our border than all other nationalities except those immediately south of the border,” he told reporters in Pella. “And in light of what is happening in Pakistan it ought to give us pause as to why are so many illegal’s coming across these borders.”

[R Glass]

Okay, we will just pin the big "A" on you.  lol

It's like you just can't loose. Demi Moore was hot in The Scarlet Letter

[sfbaygirl]

LOL  yes, she was hot in the scarlet letter!   Sorry, a bit of crying and my eyes swell.

Ya know, I thought he was pretty sharp, until today.  I still still love his dimple. lol  But I don't get the comments about crossing the border. Maybe he has a bit of ADD like me. lol  I agree about borders, but didn't understand which borders he was referring to!!   It's gonna be really hard to keep Mexican's out of this country. Besides who will pick the apples?  I did it once. I was bruised up and down my legs! Surely at my age I would never do that again. Don't know many americans that will.  Besides they did tunnels, who cares about the big fence he alludes to.  How the hell are Pakistanis getting over here?  This really isn't what we are talking about when we mention OUR borders, is it?  

[wyntre9]

Seriously, I listen to all POV's and I've discovered lots of folk have equally valid perspectives on vastly different issues.  My talking heads line-up runs the gamut from Oberman to Dobbs, O'Reilly to Mathews; same with the stuff I read.

Plus, let's be honest, these meds sometimes give me diarrhea of the mouth, and as the only friggin' thing I can count on successfully accomplishing these days is sitting at the PC and reading and posting on forum, i tend to do quite a lot of it.

R Glass, I agree Demi was quite good in Scarlet Letter and the movie was a decent version of the Hawthorne story.  

Happy New Year,

wyn

[sfbaygirl]

We forgive you and you are NOT shunned!  lol  Just kidding you know.  Actually, I could be an anarchist myself..dunno.  They say we get more conservative as we grow older. I may have a bit...but not much.  I like reading the Nation, Tukun, and other liberal rags. Haven't done so in a long time.  I know all these news people on TV and in the papers must toe the party line or they are outta there.  Murdoc (sp) who runs so many of the news orgs in this nation, as well as Turner spin the news. That is the way it is. I was a mass communication major and learned early on that at that time there were about 50 some news orgs. Now only 5 companies own the news co''s. Geez, could be less by now.  Tell me how to trust any of this dribble?

[wyntre9]

'Now only 5 companies own the news co''s.'

If that many.  i have a lot of time on my hands and not much else I can do other than flick the remote so i've gotten to know ALL the news anchors and shows VERY well over the past months.

It really is a shame the way they just repeat, verbatim, what was written or said or reported someplace else with absolutely NO regard for accuracy. let alone truth.

'Tell me how to trust any of this dribble?'

You can't.   Everyone has an agenda, from spreading lies to preserving one's job.  \He who spins fastest spins best.  :(

wyn

[sfbaygirl]

I guess I was just accused of spinning myself.  My socialist knitting circle..lol.   Oh well what can we expect when we talk politics.  

This is why I like reading news from Europe and other places. They have such a different view than us americans.

[Trish77]

I do see lhorn’s concern about this thread. So far we have been fortunate to mostly have Mature and Intelligent Members post on this thread. This could very easily change by just one Immature Idiot making a post.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see l-horn's concern also, on political threads in general and not just only this thread.  It's too easy to get someone taking or making it personal.  It doesn't take an immature idiot, it only takes a misunderstanding.  Then people feel compelled to take sides.  And away you go.  Happened a little while ago here with someone making it personal on nicknames used and happened again when someone took issue with the degree to which someone invoked God in their conversations  So...it CAN be risky when talking politics OR religion and once the cat is out of the bag and people start polarizing in such discussions, they remain polarized sometimes.  So it's not without risk to discuss politics on a board where the goal is HCV support.

[sfbaygirl]

I understand your concern about political threads. Actually this one is pretty tame compared to the others.  I have been around this forum for a long time and once the community forum came into place it was kinda cool. We could talk about all things in our lives.  Yeah,  we are here to support, but I like having the distraction of politics.  Don't like them, don't post. Many sure don't.  just like the dancing threads etc. We can skip them if we want.  I enjoy your take on politics, but if you don't want to post here you certainly don''t have to. I sure hope you will though!    

All my best
Linda

[Trish77]

Linda, I thoroughly enjoy discussing politics and religion and just about anything so I'm likely to keep posting and hopefully we don't upset each other too much but it's bound to happen from time to time.  I do see the risk in it, however I like the distraction of other topics besides HCV too and I've enjoyed the varied threads that have nothing to do with it.  HCV forces us to think about it and distractions are a welcome relief.  I'm not in this thread because I don't understand enough about American politics to contribute however I've been reading with great interest!  Thanks for your thoughts.

Trish

[sfbaygirl]

You sure seem to understand as much as anyone here. I am here to get a bit of enlightenment and learn. Perhaps I can contribute some things, and I know you have.  I have really enjoy your thoughts and posts.  Perhaps you aren't in my so called "socialist knitting group" as someone has said, but that is okay. I love to learn and hear about things I don't know. Your posts about Pakistan were great. I learned a lot and hope you will continue to post your insights into these issues.  Thanks!

Hugs,
Linda

[Trish77]

"Perhaps you aren't in my so called "socialist knitting group" as someone has said, but that is okay."

That made me laugh out loud.  I really appreciate your outlook.  I enjoy a good discussion too much to stop posting.  Like you, I like to contribute AND I like to learn.   I just never want it to get in the way of the greater good here so hopefully we'll all keep each other balanced.  Seems that way so far.  Someone is bound to get upset at some point though it always seems someone steps in to do a rescue when things threaten to get out of hand. If I need a smackdown sometime, I can take it. :) In the meantime, I'm enjoying this thread and I'm sure I'll have questions of my own at some point and I look forward to the knowledge other people will have on the subject.  I know I have a question about Ron Paul coming.... lol  :)

Trish

[wyntre9]

After rereading this post, and the last few comments, I realized that one minor detail is being left out of the discussion; the fact that L-Horn STARTED this 'political' thread, after chastizing OTHERS for having done the same thing in a post which had never been intended as political commentary.  It just evolved, as tends to happen once text appears on screen.

Interesting how he shows up after several weeks absence, stirs the pot, posts numerous threads and then declares himself above the bickering and disappears again, perhaps until the next time boredom and inertia set in.

happy new year,

wyntre

[sfbaygirl]

I'm going to check out Edwards. I heard him speak yesterday and also talked to some friends about his record.  Hillary does seem to be sort of the same ol' washington politician. Takes money from lobbists and I have heard Edwards refuses to do so.  Obama takes the money too. Probably why he isn't in the media much, as he doesn't have the money they do.  

Trish;  Yep I do need a thick skin to be here.  Even some of the Hep C threads take a thick skin! lol  Now I want to know who is Ron Paul anyway?  

[R Glass]

Wise choice to at least start looking at Edwards. I think more Democrats will start looking at him more closely one they realize the Hillary/Osama Dog and Pony Show produced by the Media could cause their party to be blown completely out of the water on Election Day. To be fair, it is not like we Republicans have an arsenal of Einstein’s to choose from either.

[beamishboy]

dare i agree?...i truly believe that hillary and/or obama are the preferred democratic candiates of REPUBLICAN party....they make for soft,easy,longterm targets...remember they made gore looklike the elitist challenger to 'good ole boy' george bush.......edwards is the hardscrabble sucess story from a workingclass family,a real live horatiao alger hero ...we truly need a hardworking,educated and smart man to fix this ungodly mess.....is this even possible?

[sfbaygirl]

Thanks for your comments.  I am going to look at Edwards. Just gotta get off this Lyrica so I can do things and think!  Hey Beamer, you have R Glass, a republican that thinks we should go for Edwards. I think that is prettty damn cool.  Unless you are just pulling our chains R Glass. LOL

[Trish77]

My newspaper has a small blurb about Ron Paul, who they call a "Libertarian-leaning Republican".  I hadn't even heard of him until my university-educating son came home and mentioned that he likes what the guy has to say.  Told me he has quite a following on the internet, which sent up red flags for me.  

Who the heck IS this guy?

[R Glass]

  From what I have read about Ron Paul is, his almost entire platform is base on Veterans Support, Using The Military to Secure Our Borders, and The Use of Troops for only National Security. This may sound great but doesn’t hold a candle to all of the problems we are faced with.

[R Glass]

So far this is the only candidate that really says what’s on his mind. Warning, he uses Offensive Language. If this Offends you, do not listen to his speech.

http://www.theguyfromboston.com/playvideo2.asp?video=Err2w-aaMYA

[sfbaygirl]

That guy from Boston is great!  lol  Great video.  Love the cigar too!  Now I want to know how we plan on securing borders. Fences sure don't work they just build tunnels.  So how the hell can we fix this problem,  not that I think it is the most important issue we face.

[Forseegood]

I don't think you're a racist...I think Obama is maybe the most gifted of them all, and we need a really intelligent President for a change...

but I think you're right, the country is not ready for a black president, there's a lot of land in between NY and LA, and it's not all Obama land, racism is alive and well in this country, maybe not in 30 years, but it currently still exists BIG TIME....I go to blogs and Utube, I can't BELIEVE the amount of racism I see there, when people are comfortable expressing their REAL views behind the anonymity of a keyboard...wish this was not the case, but I'm a realist...

and I kinda feel like I'm coping out too, not voting for the person I really want.....but I just don't want a Republican in there, too many mistakes, too many times, not a platform I want to support......so I'll go with the Dem nomination, I actually think they have a lot of good candidates, I like Joe Biden too...When Bush got voted in the first time, I thought things were going to go bad, but I had NO idea how bad...others are free to disagree, just my own views on this...

[sfbaygirl]

Ah, you made it back to the calmer discussion of politics, with a republican that can listen and talk.   I don't think R Glass said the country is NOT ready for a black president. I did. Both of us are in CA and KNOW that there is a lot of diference between these cities on the right and left coast and the land inbetween.  I brought up the question regarding being ready for a black or female president.  I am not sure we are.  Of course I will vote for one of them, if they are the nominee. It just worries me b/c as you say there is a lot of space between NY and LA.  Lot's of racists and people who are not so sure about a woman running the country.  I am concerned about it.  I haven't heard much about these issues.  I was wrong when I mentioned Geraldine. Her gender was brought up a lot!  I don't hear this issue on TV at all.  So am I missing something?  I would hate to see us have a nominee that is a black or female and then that person is beat by a republican.  Certainly not that I think a black or female are not qualified. Hillary and Obama are certainly qualified. Obama was my first choice, but I'm gonna "wait and watch". We don't have the pleasure of having the first primaries.  so are you concerned as I am about this issue?

[Forseegood]

yeah, I think there are some people here, who are more conservative then me (and that's not saying much, lol) who are very reasonable....Rglass is one of them, I think Gauf is too, and a few more...I agree with a lot of what Spacecoast has to say, certainly not all, ha ha! I just get put off by arrogance...on either side, I hope I don't come off that way either, but I prob do sometimes...I really respect McCain...

I would love to interview him...what got him through a prisoner of war camp, etc...

I saw something a little chilling, they were interviewing some guy on the national news, and he looked right into the camera and said..."well, don't really know who I'm votin for....but I can tell ya who I ain't gonna vote for, some black guy or a woman! yikes...what a cutie pie! maybe I'll meet him on Match.com, ha ha ha!

hey, so glad that they are taking all those dogs from the Michael Vick torture chamber, to a really nice sanctuary in Utah...and he's gotta pay for it! sometimes there are happy endings! (needed to get off politics, lol)

I'm just waiting too...

[IAmTheWalrus]

Speaking of the middle country .... As a resident of "flyover country" I would like to say that we do have electricity and indoor plumbing and many of us, even the Republicans, can read and write and have attended school past 10th grade and believe in civil rights. Heck, I've even travelled outside of my own county, twice!  Just so you know   :)

I don't want to just take sides because I think polarization is currently a big threat to our way of life. (But I have to agree with Wyn that LHorn really stirs up the pot!)

I think we need to declare "War on Intolerance". That's right: ZERO TOLERANCE for intolerance!  :}

Just kidding ... OK, I am serious about the polarization problem :)

[Forseegood]

youre right, didn't think that one through...sometimes I should reread before I push the send button lol...Ive been to many *fly over* areas, that I would like to live in (if not for the cold, I'm a west coast weenie!) Austin, Texas, Santa Fe New Mexico, Chicago, Chapel Hill North Carolina...St. Paul MN...or Jackson Hole Wyoming, and then just ski...many, many beautiful, cultural places...didn't mean it the way it sounded...

[IAmTheWalrus]

No offense taken :)  I just like to take a crack once in a while. And I do notice a certain air of arrogance toward and ignorance of the middle country on the part of SOME coasties. I think the middle country gets short shrift alot. NYC, LA and SF may be on the cutting edge financially and fashion wise, but the middle of the country contains a reservoir of the character that has and will continue to contribute a great deal to what America means (I'll be starting my IA primary campaign shorly ... haha)

You listed some of my favorite places, too, like Austin and Chapel Hill, as well as places I know intimately like Jackson Hole. I love the West in general. The mountains, deserts and the general wildness of it. But the thing I like most about NC, and some other places in the south, is the people. I have found the civility of so many people I have encountered in NC remarkable.

I...ohoh ...eyes heavy, brain dead, need sleep....must go..sleep...sleep...

[Trish77]

God, I love you people.  I open my newspaper and it's full of U.S. election articles and they're so much more interesting and poignant because of reading the threads here.  I get really excited by elections and it was like a party raising my kids..."make the popcorn and come gather round the TV kids...the polls are starting to come in!"  lol  :)  Now I find myself more excited by the U.S. elections than I might be otherwise.  It should catch my interest more than, say, the elections in Pakistan you would think...but it seems that my neighbours to the south are far less threatening than those who are overseas. (Some would say otherwise, but those are the ones in my country who's knee-jerk response to any Conservative policy here is "Bush-influenced". Argh. ) We've grown up side by side, for Pete's sake.  Only now...I'm starting to get MIGHTY interested in all your candidates and I feel a popcorn-making session coming on.  :)

Today the HEADLINE in my national Canadian newspaper says "Who would The Duke vote for?"  Someone should start a thread on that.. lol  :)

There are certain parallels between your discussions of Democrat/Republican to Liberal/Conservative ones here and it's all very interesting and educational and very satiating.  As much as it's risky to discuss politics...it's also very beneficial if people can resist getting overly partisan about it.  Much to learn from each other.

[IAmTheWalrus]

Well said! Though some Americans (not just coasties) may treat Canada with contempt (especially during baseball season), what America really wants is for Canada to love us and approve of us. That is what we want from every nation. It is our strength because it is noble and our weakness.because it is so impossible to please everyone.

[nygirl7]

"Maybe I'm not the person to correct since I have already made some big blunders, but do you mean Obama?  Who in the hell would vote for Osama Bin Ladan????  Okay, we can have a laugh now.  It is late! Especially on the East coast "


LOL oh my God as a New Yorker who's company was right in the WTC and lost several friends that day you'd think I could not POSSIBLY make that typo no matter what but duh there is is..........Lord God I sure wish we had an edit feature!

NYGirl <<< hanging head in shame and laughing at herself for being such a brain dead loon.  I can't even blame the ribafog anymore.

[nygirl7]

Vote for me.............I'll make Bush look smart ;)

[nygirl7]

Vote for me.............I'll make Bush look smart ;)

[sfbaygirl]

Walrus;  I agree. I am bad! As a coastie, I have traveled to lots of places in the US and overseas that I enjoyed immensely.  Perhaps I shouldn't say it is just the middle of the country, but all over.  Just some of the comments, from my own friends HERE made to me, make me wonder about the race, gender issues.  I wish we had some of that NC civility in some of the places around here!  

NY;  Just catching it. LOL. I saw it and thought it was someone else, then realized it was you who said osama and new it was a typo!  I had a good laugh!   Hey, I'll vote for you,  we can make a book of bloopers after you are out of office! lol

[R Glass]

How do we secure our Borders? I may be a little Naïve on this one but to me the solution is simple.
1. We have to give them a reason to stay in their home Country. Most South American Illegal’s (not all) are here for one reason only. To support their families. Why are we importing so much from Communist China (that doesn’t like or respect us) when we could help Industrialize Mexico? This would create jobs and give them an incentive to stay home.
2. I think a well-constructed fence would work. I was raised an Army Brat and lived on or around Army Bases for the first 15 years of my life (born in Fort Benning). You can believe me when I say, we have the man Power and Technology to Patrol the Fenced Border.
3. Make it easier for them to come here and work Legally. But, they will have to play by the same rules we have to abide by. All vehicles will be insured or the Plates or vehicals will be confiscated. They will not drive on our highways or use anything else our tax dollars paid for without proof of paying Taxes. If caught illegally. You don’t get a free bus ride home; you do community service until enough work has been done to barter for your bus ticket.
4. Last but not least, 2 wrongs do not make a right. In other words, if 2 illegal’s come on our soil and have a baby, that does not make the Baby an American

Oh, I have a question. Since I am from South Louisiana (not to far from the Gulf of Mexico) does this make me a “Coastie” or just a “We Footed Rebel Without a Cause.”

[R Glass]

Web Footed

[sfbaygirl]

lol   I think you are a coastie with the mosty. lol  We lefties have been called a lot of names like "lunatic fringe" "socialist knitting circles"   that's okay.  Gotta gotta have a thick skin, huh?   I can't imagine living in LA with what happened in New Orleans.... pretty pathetic all around. My friends went there to rescue animals and are now moving to the big shelter in Arizona. That whole thing was a travesty.  I would never vote for your govenor.  YUCK!

Geez,  how is it that I agree with your list of borders?  I do for the most part.  How do we give them a reason to stay home?  How do we do without the illegals we have in agricultual and housekeeping alone.  I know I deal with both. No American's want these jobs.  My gardener is Mexican, think he is legal, but not sure. I write checks to him.  His family is in Mexico. He loves me and brings me things...  yeah,  I think employers should be responsible for hiring the legal imigrants..  I should talk...as I have not checked my guys papers.  I have done that hard work..picked apples along with the Mexicans.  The whole family worked. I was bruised from head to toe.  The made a hell of a lot more than I did.  Besides me, never saw another american.  How do we get by without these illegals. No americans want these jobs, seen it.  I would love to find a way. A fence doesn't work!  They just dig tunnels!  

I agree we shouldn't be importing from China, how do we stop this?  We started to industrialize Mexico....all we did is make women work for slave wages and ruin their health. If we could do this in a good way, I would agree.

When they can tunnel under to work here, how the hell to we stop them?  Yeah, once they have a baby here, they claim they can't leave..their child is a Citizen.  Then we give them education, welfare, healthcare all on the US.  I don't like it,  and as a liberal I certainly don't think that we can just throw them out or their kids. What a mess is all I can say.  Sure would like to hear plans, as you have, to make this a way to make all this work.  Thanks guy!  

[sfbaygirl]

Hey forgot to say,  you are NOT part of my "socialist knitting circle" or one the "lunatic Fringe".  Gotta give you credit for that!  lol  Actually you could definatly be part of any knitting circle and I like differing views.  

Did you hear that Iowa has now proclaimed that Obama won?  Huckabee won?  Not much of a surprise.  Hopefully we in CA will get to help this election along.    

Best to you and big hugs!
Linda

[Forseegood]

gotta go but some really good ideas on the border issue...really good....

[sfbaygirl]

Yep, wow I am sure you have heard about Iowa.  Obama and Huckabee.  Do you all think this means we are going to have this pair as presidental opponants across the country?   Interesting anyway..What are your thoughts?

[Willy50]

I got back from the caucus a while ago.  It was pretty interesting.  I'll have to admit that I was surprised the way that it turned out.  And....as it turned out the state followed somewhat along the lines of mine.  There's a long ways to go till election time.  Hillary will keep going, but Obama has definately gotten a boost.  We'll see what the other primaries bring.

Willy

[sfbaygirl]

Just wrote a post and poof it was gone, I hate that!  I am jealous you were at the caucus, must have been interesting.  With all the money Obama and Hillary have I doubt they are going to jump out of the race soon. On the other hand, Edwards doesn't have that money, neither does Huckabee. McCain didn't even come to Iowa only doing NH. I hear NH is a whole other ball of wax and not many that win in Iowa go on to make Prez.  Of course hoping for a Dem, any Dem!  But we have a way to go. CA moved their primary up, of course so did everyone else!  It was always hard to watch everyone else vote and we were almost last.  Some didn't even go to the polls b/c the election had already been decided in other states according to news reports claiming victories in other states on election day.  

[mikesimon]

All of us guys were caucusing around the office until the women started complaining about indecency so we zipped up in a hurry. I thought that everyone was doing it since that is all I have been hearing - caucus, caucus, caucus. I guess it's only appropriate in Iowa. Mike

[sfbaygirl]

Okay, guess I am stupid. But what does Caucus have to do with zipping and sex, I suppose?  I'm in the dark here. won't be the first or the last time!!

Linda

[sfbaygirl]

Alright, I think I got it. cockus?  lol  Funny, funny I guess! lol

[R Glass]

I must admit I am confused on this one. Did Iowa Dems. vote for Obama or against Clinton? The latest prior polls showed Clinton ahead of Edwards by one percentage point. Did they take the safe road and support Obama guarantying a Clinton loss instead of taking a chance on splitting the vote by throwing more support to Edwards and chancing a Clinton Victory. If Obama or Clinton (not looking good for Clinton) make it to the Election, I truly believe it will result in a Republican, Landslide, Victory. As a Republican, you would think I would be excited but I am not. I would like to see both Parties offer the best they have to offer. At least if I don’t like the Republican Candidate I could vote Democrat. If Obama or Clinton makes it to the election, I will be forced to vote for anyone that runs against him or her.

[pigeonca]

Why can't you vote for Obama but you can vote for Edwards?  I'm really curious.

[Forseegood]

after hearing and reading so many of the various pundits and newspaper articles, on all sides of the equation, give their takes...and listening to that victory speech that Obama (and Huckabee) gave, I feel Obama has traction, something that surprises me somewhat, guess I was being too cynical.

He really won it, it wasn't just a case of her losing. He's got that magic that every political handler looks for and almost never finds, he's got the heat. Kennedy had it, Reagan, Clinton...Now I'm wondering if this can sustain him till the nomination, maybe I had it wrong, maybe this guy CAN go the distance. At least I hope I had it wrong. Perhaps the "I would never vote for a black guy" vote will not cripple him, though that remains to be seen.

I really like Huckabee as a man, he's really sweet and he has that air of calmness and serenity about him that to me is very compelling. Plus he doesn't strike me that he has any ruthlessness in him, unusal for a politician. But that refrain he keeps repeating, that folksy "I want to be like the guy who works next to you, not the guy that fired you!" stuff - I think - won't hold him in good stead once he gets to the other primaries, and doesn't have his evangelical base to rely on....I should think that most of us are tired of having some guy that runs the country that seems like us...we've had that for nearly 8 years, and it didn't really work, to say the least.

Many of us WANT some guy who is friggin BRILLIANT, not someone like "us"....who can think on his feet no matter what assails him, a brilliant communicator and negotiator...a guy who won't have to rely on mentors, handlers, advisers, etc etc...all the time to make decisions, but who will listen to these people, and then make his *own* decisions based on the fact that he's got so much brain power and education. To be able to look at a problem, then see all it's ramifications, applications, facets, etc etc etc....We NEED someone this brilliant to get us out of these messes, nothing less. Obama was head of his class at Harvard, his books are beautifully written....God knows the guy has brain power, now see if he has strategy. He's getting young people (notoriously bad at voting) and other people usually not interested...he just might do it...plus, America loves a dichotomy...an underdog and a winner at the same time. Just my take.

[sfbaygirl]

again a great post.  Yep,  Obama really brought those newbies out to vote....impressive.  He NEVER voted for the Iraq war and I appaud him for this.  

I do want someone brilliant and and can handle the matters at hand. Unlike we have have now.  This means advisors that are smart and not just polictical, but who reason and think squarely about what is best for this country.  Not many have done this latelyl.  We are in a f'ing mess and need to get out of it. It's going to take a brillant and observant  and smart person to do so.  God help us to find that person.  

[R Glass]

Other than Race, Obama has no Platform. Read up on him at Wikipedia and count how many times anything that has to do with race is mentioned. Don’t over look the Racist
Church he is a member of. You will also notice he has barley 3 years as a Senator under his belt. If you remove the time he has spent on the campaign trail, he probably has about 2
  years experience. At one point he claimed he was never really raised a Muslim and his Step Father was really an Atheist. Maybe he was telling the truth and his Step Father
named him Barack Obama to make him tough like that Johnny Cash song “A Boy Named Sue.” I also wander, why has he never made a Fervent Condemnation of Muslim Extremist. I have heard him make a few weak and futile comments when it was convenant but nothing  of any  value. I do not see Obama as presidential material nor do I see him  having anything to offer.
John Edwards- 10 years as Senator. Prior to his political carrier, he was a lawyer specializing in Medical Mal-Practice suits. He settled 3 cases with The American Red Cross      
of distributing HIV Tainted Blood Products. I could go on and on about Edwards but I think you get the jest of why I prefer Edwards over Obama. Don’t forget, I am a Republcan and I am not
  endorsing Edwards. I am just saying, I think he is the best and maybe only thing that the Democrats have to offer as a contendor. If the Republicans blow it between now and Election day, he would be my choice. If both parties blow it with their candidates, it will be like the last election, Trying to choice who would be best Beavis or Butthead.

[Willy50]

I can't claim to know why everyone voted as they did.  There are different reasons in many peoples caucus choice;

1)  Some people wanted a candidate who stood against the war (this left some Dems out)
2)  Some people figure that Hillary was a shoo in anyway and that this was an opportunity to keep    a few other people in the race.  In my polling place the initial draft was 3 to 1, Obama to Hillary.  After we saw how things would shake out and that some candidates were non-viable then caucasers then migrated to other groups to either make them viable or to net them another delegate to cast a vote for them in the Dem convention.  In my caucus group the second round vote netted Hillary and Obama another delegate.  (yes, I am a democrat)
3)  Some people truly vote for "their" candidate, others for who they think is a good choice as a compromise and who....whereas they may not be their first choice, may be more "electable".
4)  Others may chose someone who is a symbolic choice but for whom they realize may have no chance of winning.  ( a classic example of this might be a socialist candidate or third party candidate).  They want to make a statement.

I was more of a pragmatist.  I was an "undecided" and I was willing to go anywhere that if my one vote could net another delegate....then I was willing to go there.  I wavered on Richardson until it was clear that he was not going to get a delegate.  I then went to Obama but was also willing to go there when they were 1 vote shy of a delegate.  It made for a more interesting evening for me and I also got the sensation that my vote might actually make a difference.  One does not always feel that way. (especially after Gore won the popular vote and lost the election....if one wants to legitimize it and call the Florida vote that)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Its not who votes that counts, its who counts the votes. - Karl Marx "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

5) a last dynamic is that in choosing a candidate may be illustrated by this gem;
"When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before."
- Mae West (1892-1980)  

For me....I wanted to show my distaste for the war.  I am against the deficit spending that we have seen these past years and would prefer our money be spent in our own country and to the benefit of our own citizens.  Our bridges are falling apart, or cities left in ruin following disasters and yet we are hemorrhaging overseas in a war which we never should have entered into.  Are we ready to "stay the course?"  The Republicans have had plenty of time to work their magic.  Are we better off today; is our country?

Nuff said on that.  I just wanted to address a few considerations about the caucus results.  There will be plenty more coming.

best,
Willy

[Trish77]

As an interested non U.S. observer, I'm wondering if it comes into play at all that you consider who can stand up on the world stage most effectively to represent U.S. interests.   That seems particularly critical considering the global climate at this particular moment, with troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, with the Iran threat a constant and with the situation in Pakistan influencing the situation in Afghanistan.

At the recent Bali conference on the environment, it was just a bit alarming to me to read the comment from one of the leaders of the smaller countries that said something to the effect of "now we know that if we all gang up on the U.S. together, we can defeat them".   And indeed, the world had the U.S. .. and Canada for that matter...dancing to their tune.  I don't want to get into an environmental discussion here, my point is that if the countries of the world feel they can overpower the U.S. on THIS issue, what else do they think they can accomplish and what unholy alliances may come into play...and what leader does the U.S. need as a result? Things are not as they were before.  China and India are growing rapidly into economic powerhouses.  And the influence of the U.S. seems to be less than before.

Out of all your candidates, who do you think can represent the U.S. most effectively on the world stage and why and how important is this to you in your decision-making?

[Willy50]

Out of all your candidates, who do you think can represent the U.S. most effectively on the world stage and why and how important is this to you in your decision-making?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great question and part of the answer to that is whether we have another George Bush type president or one whose foreign policy will be less intervention and more fence mending.

I think we have squandered a tremendous amount of good will that the USA once enjoyed.  I think it's possible that we've made many more enemies over the past 6 years; far more that we once had.  We've also decisively proven that our resources to wage a war are limited and finite whereas it might have been more in conjecture before the Iraq "conflict".

I think that a good start might be to rebuild our relationship with the world community, rebuild our infrastructure which is stretched at the moment (or so I think).  Generally, its about being a better neighbor.  That means increased use of the United nations, diplomacy, conforming to past agreements such as the Geneva conventions or being a team player in other world wide concerns such as global warming (we've only just begun to admit that is possibly happening)

You make a good point that the world is changing and we must change with it.  

Who do we choose?  That depends whether we decide to continue the path of military "solutions" or those which can be fought thru diplomacy.  I hope that all will recall that Iraq was once contained and at relative peace between the 2 Bush administrations.  I'd suggest that the current military solution was a bad choice.  I hope that we can remember that as we rattle our saber and look towards Iran.

best,
willy

[Trish77]

Who do we choose?  That depends whether we decide to continue the path of military "solutions" or those which can be fought thru diplomacy.  I hope that all will recall that Iraq was once contained and at relative peace between the 2 Bush administrations.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I respectfully submit that the peace you're referring to was an illusion.  Your senior Bush dropped the ball badly in the Kuwaiti war and should have completed the task and kept on going.  The Iraqi people WANTED him to.  They were waiting to be rescued from Saddam Hussein.  Iraqis expected him to come in because he said he would.  And then Bush Sr. did not.   Hussein was left in power in Iraq.  Hussein then turned around and butchered thousands upon thousands of Iraqis and Kurds who suddenly had no protection and were left undefended by the government who had led them to believe that they would have backing all the way if they fought against Hussein in the Kuwaiti war.  Hussein took out his revenge on those people in unspeakable ways.  Switching over to diplomacy at that point has created this situation as much as Bush Jr.'s lack of a plan B once he got INTO Iraq.  And I also submit that the people of Iraq enjoyed no such peace but rather faced heinous torture, cruelty and murder at the hands of a ruthless depraved dictator.

I heard a speaker last year who is Canadian of Moroccan descent, who lives in Iraq and is charged with the difficult job of brokering peace between various factions and has been asked by Iraqis themselves to come back over and over again because of the results he has had...his take on it was that it was not a bad thing to get rid of Hussein.  Where the problem lay was in the lack of vision and a viable plan for what to do after that.

I do not think ALL things are settled by diplomacy alone.  I wish that were true. There are various factions in the world who are not interested in diplomacy.  They don't fight with the same ideology or tactics.  What makes them back down is the prospect that the U.S. WILL respond militarily if necessary.  In my opinion, that is the ONLY thing that saved the world from World War III when Iran threatened to become involved in the Israel/Hamas crisis not so long ago.  The threat of certain obliteration kept them in check.  

I would want a leader who is capable of being a great diplomat but is also capable of knowing when a military solution is, regrettably, what is required to keep peace.  Someone who is wise enough to understand when each are required.

[Willy50]

Your senior Bush dropped the ball badly in the Kuwaiti war and should have completed the task and kept on going.  
_________________________________________________________________

I respectfully submit that what we are witnessing IS what would have happened if George senior had "continued the march".  I see no end in sight.  Even people knowlegable on the situation (I don't think that I am) who want out don't know how to do it without further destabilization to the region.  I don't know what country you are posting from (and not asking) but we appear to have fewer and fewer allies in this arena.  I wonder why there are so few "right thinking" supporters of the conflict.  I wonder why so few of our own citizens continue to support the war?  I mean..... they support the troops and all but the majority of Americans want OUT.

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"I would want a leader who is capable of being a great diplomat but is also capable of knowing when a military solution is, regrettably, what is required to keep peace."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would want a leader who can at least speak English, honors the Geneva Convention (which protects our troups and the Red Cross, and who learned the lessons of Vietnam.  These lessons for those with short attention spans were also the lessons that the USSR (remember them before they spent themselves broke?) learned too late in Afganistan.  I've got to give GW credit though..... he thinks that he can fight a conflict not only in Afganistan, Iraq, and now is looking longingly at Iran.  (note to self; buy more stock in Halliburton).  : )

Surely a righteous cause such as this should be shared by our allies?  If there are no allies in this endeavor should we ask ourselves why?

best wishes,
willy

[Willy50]

by the way..... I try not to go too far overboard, either in the amount of time I delegate to posting or to the amount of stomach acid I produce in generating a vitriolic reply.  : )

Now and then when putting together a reply I feel the hand of God on my shoulder.  Today however........ every time I reply to this thread there is a banner at the top of the forum that reminds me;  "HOW BIG OF A LOSER DO YOU WANT TO BE?

I'm thinking....I'm thinking.  

best,
Willy

[tin_cup]

before anyone votes for billary you might want to see this first...

http://www.zombietime.com/really_truly_hillary_gallery/

youve been warned LOL

[sfbaygirl]

Willy said;  "think that a good start might be to rebuild our relationship with the world community, rebuild our infrastructure which is stretched at the moment (or so I think).  Generally, its about being a better neighbor.  That means increased use of the United nations, diplomacy, conforming to past agreements such as the Geneva conventions or being a team player in other world wide concerns such as global warming (we've only just begun to admit that is possibly happening)"  I agree with this.  We need a great communicator and negoitator to get our world to accept us again. So many countries hate us, even Europe!!  Yes, we need someone that is not BUSH,  and someone more like Clinton, Bill, or Nixon who went to China.  Huckabee is not the one. He will lose possibly b/c of his evangical support.  Obama made a hell of a speech after the Iowa win.  I think he has the magic.  We will see.  Lot's to go yet.  I dont' think huckabee will make it, but Obama is bringing that magic into the election.

[Trish77]

I respectfully submit that what we are witnessing IS what would have happened if George senior had "continued the march".  I see no end in sight.  Even people knowlegable on the situation (I don't think that I am) who want out don't know how to do it without further destabilization to the region.  I don't know what country you are posting from (and not asking) but we appear to have fewer and fewer allies in this arena.  I wonder why there are so few "right thinking" supporters of the conflict.  I wonder why so few of our own citizens continue to support the war?  I mean..... they support the troops and all but the majority of Americans want OUT.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You could be right, that we'd have seen the same thing then that we're seeing now..however, I will have to agree to disagree with you.  During the Gulf War, the U.S. was backed by many countries in the world, including a number of Arab nations and the sentiments of the world were largely with the U.S.  The same situation doesn't exist with this current Iraq conflict.  And again, many Iraqis turned on Saddam during the Gulf war and were prepared to welcome the U.S. and it's allies.  They figured they were safe to do so, that the U.S. would finish the job.  As it turns out, they were not safe and the job was not complete.  Surely the U.S. knew what would happen to those people if they left Saddam in power.  The rest of the world was safe and the Iraqi people paid the price. I say the U.S. because it was the major power, however, the world shares the results of this. There are numerous accounts of the depravity that was unleashed upon those people.  Perhaps that viewpoint sounds like vitriol to you.  It is not.  To me, it is simply stating the facts as I see them. And to me, that was a terrible horrific tragedy.  I support our Canadian troops staying Afghanistan at the moment.  To me, if we left now we would be leaving the Afghan people vulnerable at a time when they are not yet able to withstand the Taliban on their own.  We cannot, in good conscience, leave that country until the job is *finished*.
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"by the way..... I try not to go too far overboard, either in the amount of time I delegate to posting or to the amount of stomach acid I produce in generating a vitriolic reply.  : )"

I am not sure what this comment of yours means ... however, it seems either I've touched a nerve with you or you think you touched a nerve with me, which you didn't. I am not anti-American in the slightest, just for the record.  That doesn't mean I agree with everything you did or do and hell, I don't agree with everything my own country does.  What I said is simply how I see it, that's all.  I forget, sometimes, that I'm talking with people that I don't know very well and who don't know me.  If I was stating such things here, I would take care who I express such opinions to and I should be more careful here perhaps.

As for allies, we're there with you in Afghanistan.  We're also in the areas that are taking the hardest hit and we have the highest casualty rate out of all the countries including the U.S.  I don't think you have to call our committment into question there.  As for Iraq, some people in our country think that's the only thing our Prime Minister at the time, Jean Chretien ever did that was noteworthy and that was keeping us out of Iraq.  Others think he did NOTHING noteworthy.  So there you go.

As for the answer to my original question, your reply was actually quite good and I would agree for the most part.  I chose to address only the part where I differ from you and that is that sometimes a military response is required.  Sometimes.  I'm not sure how diplomacy is helping the people in Sudan in the Darfur region.  While we fiddle around with diplomacy, millions die.  Tough questions I ask myself...what should the world's response be to situations such as Darfur?  What would the people of Darfur wish the rest of the world would do?  And if WE lived in Darfur, what would WE want the rest of the world to do?  Rhetorical questions.  Not asking for answers.

I appreciated your response, Willy.

Trish

[Willy50]

I appreciated your response, Willy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I appreciated yours too Trish.  You write well, critically and without judgement.  It makes for good discussion.

I try to tip toe through such topics since everybody has their own opinion and in many different ways they all have some validity.  You bring up an excellent point that we can never truely know what would happen if "X" was done instead of "Y".  How different science is from politics.  There are lots of trials on Pegasys and Peg-Intron but no matter how many times a trial is done they are very careful on how they draw conclusions.  They certainly tend to couch things in likelihoods, evidence of etc.  They never seem to feel that they've learned everything and they steer away from making absolute statements.  This is not the way that politics if often discussed.  If anything it is more like the opposite; lots of emotion or attachments to ones viewpoints.  I mean, there is good reason for that too....but often it can get in the way of objective discussion.

My little joke pertained to the Jillian Micheal ads that have been flashing on the MedHelp header as of late.  My self deprecating humor was about my going overboard in a polemic and acting like a "loser".  The thing about God guiding my writing was also in jest too.  Now that I've fully explained it I'm laughing about how unfunny jokes are when explained.  : )

No nerves touched and I find that I also have some agreement with you.  I hate to keep going back to the well about Viet Nam but one of the addages about that war was that we might have "to destroy it to save it".  Indeed, we had noble aspirations in our attempt to "free" Iraq from Saddam but the Iraqi people have certainly paid a price.  The infrastructure has been destroyed, as well as their cities, their historical landmarks, their economy and their people.  I don't think the price of this was fully recognised when we went in.  I guess that I argue that rather than making the world safer our action may have even destabilized the region further as well as our own economy.  Our resources are not without limit.  IF we become "broke" and unable to serve in some capacity (in my opinion that is happening now) as world policeman the effects on world stability could also become dire.  I'm merely saying that we must have some balance.  Right now we are writing checks that our economy can't cash on a war that was "optional".  

....just my opinion and I thank you for your points and opinion.

best,
Willy

[Trish77]

"So many countries hate us, even Europe!! "

This has been going on for a VERY long time though.  Since I was in my twenties.. and I'm now in my forties.. I've been hearing stories about my fellow Canadian citizens travelling abroad that will make sure they have Canadian flags on their backpacks or luggage or somewhere on their person so that people abroad know they're not American and they magically get treated better.  This didn't start with Bush.  I think the U.S. has long had a tenuous relationship with the rest of the world because it has a LONG history of putting it's hand into so many pies.  Seems the various U.S. leaders never paid attention to that old cliche that too many cooks spoil the soup. It has certainly gotten worse with the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq combined with the rise of Islamic militancy and influence throughout the world, which started BEFORE these invasions but which has certainly been exacerbated by these invasions.  Aside from whether either of these were correct or not, that is simply the fallout as the radical Muslim element will stop at nothing to advance their religious agenda.

[sfbaygirl]

What you say is what scares me about our borders.  I have traveled extensively around the world and NEVER was it as bad as after Bush Sr. invaded Iraq.  Clinton made things a bit nicer. People loved him, but now we are back to the hatred Bush Sr. created. Not in the this country. Most here supported GulfWar, I didn't,  but it created a backlash that we havent' gotten over.  You know, it seems when we have a great negotiator in place, like Clinton, Nixon.....brainfog (why I like Hep C political discussions)  We have made so many damn enenmies, it is not funny!  I am really concerned how we are going to elect a decent president.  The money they get somehow, although there are restricions on elecion financing, doen't seem to make a whole lot of difference.  MONEY makes the differece and so far no matter how many laws we pass to restrict the candidates they get the money through loopholes.  How do we stop this???  Sickening.  It's like hiring a bad contrater to fix something. You get a bad one and you are stuck!....

[Lady Lauri]

  Just too brain dead to get much involved in these, but I learn a LOT reading them, and appreciate that and respect everyone’s own views, opinions and their rights to them! As R glass said  "I have found this thread (for the most part) Respectful, Educational, and Stimulating."  Plus as ladywhy said...we're doing this on drugs! Can't take it so personal. And it's not without risk to have a political discussion ANYWHERE, not just here, LOL.

I Horn, with the best of intentions in this....you have got to know by now that any political comments bring these discussions. There is no way to discuss just 'one' candidate.
  Without having to scroll up, scroll down, to post any comments.....just a couple I can muster in.
  
  sfbay...."Bottom line, do you think this country is ready for a woman or a black?  I have my doubts that the country is ready for this…………………..
     I truly don't think we are and that was a discussion I had yesterday. NOT that either is wrong, nor that I personally am not ’ready’ and without going into the reasoning...just don't think we're 'there' yet.

R Glass...don't think your being a racist at all, just wanted to say that! You, and many,made some good points.

Sfbay said  ..."That's my point.  Replace 'Black' with ANYTHING else; Hispanic, gay, women, Native American, etc. and the effect would be similar."
And again, NOT from any racist, prejudice view, as I am neither, but replace it with 'white' and h*ll will break loose. That IS where it's still at today, which is why I think the country isn't 'ready'....every decision made will become of 'racial influence' and so on.

  "socialist knitting group" ...... that was just cute :} Great way to put it and if not in that group together, you can still be in a 'pottery class' together on other threads, LOL.

As I am like jmjm in tx...home bound much.....I spend wayyyy more time on this lap top, just reading many days. I enjoy reading everyone’s views/points and even when not agreeing with, it often makes me think or re-think my own views, which no matter how you look at it, educates me, my opinions more! Being a recluse right now, watching little news (per following it :}, I’m keeping up better from these threads!


  And again.....back to my simple threads :}    
                          
Best to all
  

[Lady Lauri]

  That was a lot typed for being too brain dead to get involved! Thank God for copy/paste to take the points and add my point :}

LL

[ladywhy]

"As I am like jmjm in tx...home bound much....."

Have I missed something?

What do you mean jmjm is in tx? He's been SVR for some time...i hope that you are talking about someone else? Lot's of us homebound txers to choose from... :}
y

[Lady Lauri]

  I mean when he did tx....isn't it him has said that he was homebound thru out tx?

  Not that I am glad your homebound AT ALL .....but your right, a lot are and I don't feel like such a wimp :}

                                                                                               LL

[ladywhy]

That's just not a description that comes to mind when it comes to you. I think alot of us going thru this...feel we should be able to do this and should be doin' that...'cause some days we can...it's a mystery. I'll tell ya though...after being out somewhere/anywhere, I have never appreciated being home as I do now. Safe Haven surrounded by my animals. It's strange...a part of me wants company and another part 'vants' to be left alone. I forced myself to have a friend over for dinner last night...and was then glad I did and also glad when he left. Thankfully, I like my own company...otherwise I would be having even more trouble...
I try to find my gratitude....always.
y

[sfbaygirl]

I am and was as jmjm, homebound on tx and beyond....At least these political thread for heppers, keep me stimulated, as do many of the threads having to do with tx and post tx.  I went to dinner out tonight. Celebrating the passing of my friend. " Happy Birthday to you!" Actually bought a few clothes at Macy's, not something I do.  

LL Thanks for your input in the thread,  it does help to stimulate that mind I find.  Half the posts I write are spelled wrong, words left out, mostly illegible.  But that is why I like posting here instead of some REAL board where I would really be blown outta the place.  lol

[sfbaygirl]

Okay, Trish, you definately are not one of the socialist knitting group, you may be Willy! lol

I did lots of research on Bush Sr. during the gulfwar.  I hated him for going in, I thought it was ridiculous.  Glassby warned of the attack on Kuiwait and Bush Sr. approved it to Saddam, his buddy.  When he went in,  Saddam was pretty shocked to find us attacking him, afterall we did support his attacks on Iran.  As an arrogant man, Saddam was angry and rebellous when Bush, his buddy, went after him and Iraq.  I too thought it was outrageous to attack Iraq, cripple the infastructure in one of the most progressive nations in the middle east. Yes,  Saddam was NO saint, but he was OUR guy.  Iraq allowed women in universities and let them drive, wow!  He also had the most educated people and good health care for all. This was one of the best examples of an upwardly educated people in the middle east.  Not like we or anyone else been civil.  Not that I agree with what Saddam did to his disenters or the Kurds.  At least he allowed Christianity and there was no unrest.  

We went in and ruined the water supply, the schools and communication system with Bush Sr.  Yes, he didn't finish it.  What gets me is that when W went in he didn't gather the coalition as his father did to do what he did.  What a huge mistake!  Besides, why the hell we needed to go there in the first place. we were after Bin Laden, not Saddam.  Because of misinformation he took us out of Afganistan and put us into Iraq. There are only 40,000 troops in Afganistan now. None on that border with Pakistan, probably won't be either.  We went into Iraq for all the wrong reasons and now we are stuck there.  Sad, messy affair!

[ladywhy]

My brother-in-law's family..all lived in IBaghdad until very recently (Hakim was able to get his entire family out of the country, they are all refugees now...he has had to support them for years) The Iraqi people begged our country and we promised them (Bush Sr./Persian Gulf) we would get rid of Saddam. Listening to the atrocities that took place during his regime to the people of Iraq from the people of Iraq is beyond our Western imagination. He was a brutal monsterl , his son's were the same.
Hakim's father (a Dr.) and friends sunk what they had into supporting (very discretely) the ousting of Saddam.
I don't have any answers to what to do now....but I'll never forget the days after 9/11 (watchin' TV) when G.Bush spoke of entering Iraq.. another Twilight Zone moment.  What the heck does this have to do with 9/11 I thought!!. I was living in NY...and the fever pitch was high. It seemed to me...no one was getting that Iraq...Osama, Al Quieda...and the Taliban were seperate issues.
We are in up beyond our necks now....and I pray that whatever administration is elected...that they have the wisdom, diplomacy and humility to end this nightmare.
y

[ladywhy]

please excuse the spelling...

[ladywhy]

There was plenty of unrest, there was also genocide, he cared nothing for his own people...he was an absolute (deranged) dictator where no civilian was safe. Just 'cause he controlled the media and we didn't hear about the horrors...doesn't mean they were not happening.

y

[ladywhy]

Before Saddam's regime..Iraq had excellent education system, healthcare...come on...they are the oldest known civilization.

[R Glass]

I have had the worst weekend since I started tx. I even had to pull my truck over and call someone to come get me. As far as I am concerned, they can drop a bomb on this whole damned planet an Let God Sort us Out.

[ladywhy]

If you disageed with ANYTHING publicly or privately....people just disappeared.......

[Lady Lauri]

Sorry R. , had to do the same @ my 5th week, Hgb had dropped so fast I guess. We think we're pretty tough until this! This is why I tell most don't plan on riding much as being on a bike pretty dangerous when feeling this bad. When they 1st lowered dose's , I had an 'ok' week, but pretty much back to the homebound now.
  Aren't you in your 4tth-5th week now ? That's when I went DOWN! Was trying to work/keep up my pace and just no way. Hgb's had dropped and IMO when it all 1st starts dropping, meds start getting in us, it hit's us hard, our body is being slammed. I wish I could say it get's better, I think you just get more used to it and give up trying to keep up your normal pace.
  A tip many here gave me......don't try to keep up that pace, it'll hurt you! And their right, whenever I did/do......I am so sick the next day or two. For now at least, get your labs done and rest more. Have you had your 4 week labs?

   Feel Better......but do hold up on that bomb! ( I had said no one on tx should be president, right?)

                                                                                  LL

[ladywhy]

Ahh...sorry to hear about ur weekend...I'm feelin' really bad meself. I'm glad there was someone to call and that you were smart enough to pull over.

That's my hope and prayer, Let God sort us out....

[Lady Lauri]

........That's just not a description that comes to mind when it comes to you. ..............

  That's what hurts, I wasn't a wimp before this :} !! I too like my own company, LOL and your right, d*m good thing!

sfbay....I think for the most part, most on this site understand the tx, moods, different opinions, etc.
To me, the site is not boring because of all the community chat and helps talking about much else besides hep, same knitting class or not :}

                                                                                    LL

[sfbaygirl]

Y;   Yes,  I guess what I didn't say and thought I did, (Brian did it!) Yes, Bush sr. at least had a coalition and the support of many nations.  That was the way to do this.  Saddam was a horrible dictator, but he was Bush Sr.'s dictator.  W went in with out a coalition and you and me both can't figure out WHY THE HELL WE WENT into Iraq when we were going after Bin Laden and Al Queda and the Taliban.  They weren't in Iraq then.  I still don't get it.  Meanwhile Bin Laden is gathering support from Muslims that hate what we are doing in Iraq, sitting in his mountain in Pakistan or Afganistan training more and more to come after us again.  Yep, still don't get it.  Now we seem to be in a quagmire that we can't get out of.  Even the Brittish pulled out.  

R Glass;  Sorry to hear you are so sick!!  Hope you feel much better soon.  

[ladywhy]

I "think" it was merely a 'pissing contest." G. Bush didn't like that his daddy was threatened with assasination and while this country was in a tailspin over 9/11...now was the time in his mind to get rid of the sick bas#@*^rd.
..I know it was much more than that but...
The Bush admin. walked into a nightmare, what with Katrina...9/11 and more. The Clinton admin had definately dropped the foreign ball...and I certainly would not have wanted to walk into the the oval office at that time...maybe the worst time in US history (we shall see) I can't blame Bush for everything...

[ladywhy]

oh yea...forgot about "weapons of mass destruction."...Fact is...they could still be hidden there or moved or whatever...there aint no telling. If we can't even find Osama what makes us believe with any certainty that...hidden underground somewhere in the MidEast....massive amts. of weapons are not just waiting to be used at the 'right' time for jihad.


For those who pray...nows the time...

When the Soviet Union collapsed...what was done with all the advanced technology for weaponry...bio-chemicals, and such. It was SOLD to the highest bidders!

Heck..I'm scarin' meself..gonna go lie down.

[sfbaygirl]

Yep,  can't blame Bush for everything, but he sure has made some stupid mistakes.  Katrina,  Borrowing on the publics money, name calling all the leaders he doesn't like, Going in with a coalition and to get revenge for Daddy. Besides the money crisis we are now in.....that's enough of a list.  He most likely will go down as the worst president.  I doubt some of the other presidents sure wouldn't have gone into Iraq, when we were after Bin Laden.  

[ladywhy]

Well...can't blame Bush for Katrina..that's 4sure....I believe that is what is called insurance-wise an "Act of Nature"

It's a tragedy what's happening...and I will not blame one man..for this or one admin...

Romans 3:10-18 (New American Standard Bible)

10as it is written,
         "(A)THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
    11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
         THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
    12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
         THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
         THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
    13"(B)THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
         WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
         "(C)THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
    14"(D)WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
    15"(E)THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
    16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
    17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
    18"(F)THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

this was 1rst written in the book of Psalms 14:1-3.
I don't mean to offend anyone...this is what I believe...The Word of God.
If I come across as 'holier than thou', believe me when I say, I am not innocent.

[ladywhy]

"doubt some of the other presidents sure wouldn't have gone into Iraq, when we were after Bin Laden. "

Hilary Clinton would have...she supported the Iraqi war...and so did most of our 'fearless leaders"...when the political wind shifted...so did she.

[sfbaygirl]

I doubt other presidents would have gone into Iraq either. W had an agenda and had bad information.  Not sure about Hillary, but I still am leery about those that voted for war.  Although, I do think some of them didn't think W would have just gone in with out a lot of more studies and a coalition. Obama sure is bringing out the indies.  

I do blame Bush for Katrina, of course not all the blame, but he did nothing for so long!  Most Prez's go check out disasters such as this.  FEMA director has a lot of blame too as well as the govenor.  

[ladywhy]

For many years geo-scientists have forewarned of this happening to New Orleans...and also that it will happen again. The outer banks need to be built up...engineers are needed. Nothing is being done...

Natural disasters happen...chaos reigns...blame is useless. The question is: why build back the city....without taking the necessary precautions so avoid the same thing happening. Another no-brainer.

I remember clearly (she admits it) both Clintons rah, rahing for war w/Iraq. Most politicians were on the bandwagon....Republican & Democrat alike. Until as I said previously...the  politico wind shifted and so did they. No surprise...that's what politicians do....

[ladywhy]

For many years geo-scientists have forewarned of this happening to New Orleans...and also that it will happen again. The outer banks need to be built up...engineers are needed. Nothing is being done...

Natural disasters happen...chaos reigns...blame can be spread out very thin. The question is: why build back the city....without taking the necessary precautions to avoid the same thing happening again. Another no-brainer. Of course it will cost a real fortune....that 'could' be the main reason.

I remember clearly (she admits it) both Clintons rah, rahing for war w/Iraq. Most politicians were on the bandwagon....Republican & Democrat alike. Until as I said previously...the  politico wind shifted and so did they. No surprise...that's what politicians do....

I must say goodnight sfbaygirl...and I have enjoyed our discussion. Thank you.

[sfbaygirl]

I agree,  I am sure they were forwarned, but who was going to stop New Orleans.  yes, Natural disasters happen. I always, although liberal, don't believe that the public should pay for people building in unsafe areas.  I am in earthquake zone. If I want ins. I should get it. Can't afford it!  Taking my chances living on bedrock.....I will most likely be slammed for this.  I also live in a forest, that could go up in fire.  I have a huge hill that had a mudslide several years ago and the mud landed in my bottom neighbor. I wasn't held responsible, because it was an act of God, so I didn't have to pay.  Sorry for the neighbor I can't even see though.  

I don't remember what you are saying about rah rahhing going to war.  The bill they signed during the W admin, was not meant to go to war, only if necessary.  I still don't like them voting for it.

[Mr Liver]

"did lots of research on Bush Sr. during the gulfwar.  I hated him for going in, I thought it was ridiculous. "

Didn't you say there was a coalition ? And it had Arab countries in it ? So, they agreed there was a need and a justification to take military action ? Do you know which Arab countries were in the coalition ?

Since you have already done the research I'd like to know why Bush Sr didn't go to Baghdad and take care of Saddam right then and there ? If we wanted their oil why didn't we just grab it then ?

And if leftists claims are correct then we also provided Iran with missiles during the war between Iraq and Iran.
Are you familiar with the saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend "?

[Mr Liver]

excerpted from a December 2005 address to the nation. For the complete speech go to:http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051218-2.html

"I also want to speak to those of you who did not support my decision to send troops to Iraq: I have heard your disagreement, and I know how deeply it is felt. Yet now there are only two options before our country -- victory or defeat. And the need for victory is larger than any president or political party, because the security of our people is in the balance. I don't expect you to support everything I do, but tonight I have a request: Do not give in to despair, and do not give up on this fight for freedom.

Americans can expect some things of me, as well. My most solemn responsibility is to protect our nation, and that requires me to make some tough decisions. I see the consequences of those decisions when I meet wounded servicemen and women who cannot leave their hospital beds, but summon the strength to look me in the eye and say they would do it all over again. I see the consequences when I talk to parents who miss a child so much -- but tell me he loved being a soldier, he believed in his mission, and, Mr. President, finish the job.

[hairtamer]

Wow, I can't believe I found another "I like Mike" person....  Huchabee/McCain ticket has my vote.  I am an Arizonan and have grown up with McCain.  My Christian/Catholic faith is what draws me to the candidate I would vote for.  I believe whatever passions a person has draws them to their favorite candidate.  Happy voting...
God Bless,
Rose

[sfbaygirl]

Bush Sr. did go to Bagdad. Saddam was in that underground bunker that no missle could pierce.  I am too brain dead to remember all the arab countries in the coalition.  Yep, although I did not like that invasion, and don't like this one. Bush Sr. did it the right way.

[R Glass]

KATRINA    Can’t Blame Bush for this one
So not only are local resources first responders, and not only did Louisiana decline a Bush Administration offer to have the Federal Government manage the relief effort before the storm hit, but the Bush Administration was told by the Governor of Louisiana that the levees had not breached yet -- three hours after they did.
In the documents, Ms. Blanco and her advisers, as well as some outside allies, defended her decision to reject a request by the Bush administration to take control of the National Guard.
The response of another Blanco aide to this plea was similarly exasperated. "I am getting these calls too, and I have buses and water but can't get word on where and how to send," wrote Kim Hunter Reed, director of policy and planning.
Offers of help came in from around the world, including from former President Bill Clinton, President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela and Fidel Castro in Cuba. ("We cannot let this get out," Mr. Mann, the communications director, wrote about Mr. Castro's offer.)
On August 26, 2005, the National Hurricane Center predicted for the first time that Hurricane Katrina would become a Category 4 storm, and thus exceed the design limits of the New Orleans levees.On August 26 Mayor Nagin advised New Orleanians to keep a close eye on the storm and prepare for evacuation. He made various statements encouraging people to leave without officially calling for an evacuation throughout Saturday the 27th before issuing a call for voluntary evacuation that evening. He stressed the potential danger posed by Katrina by saying "This is not a test. This is the real deal." He was hesitant to order a mandatory evacuation because of concerns about the city's liability for closing hotels and other businesses. Nagin continued to announce that the city attorney was reviewing the information regarding this issue and once he had reviewed the city attorney's opinion he would make a decision whether to give the order to evacuate the city.On Sunday morning August 28, (2 days after advised by the National Hurricane Center) Katrina became a Category 4 hurricane,and Nagin declared a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans
Some newspaper editorial writers have criticized Mayor Nagin for not handling evacuation procedures properly and, in particular, for allowing hundreds of New Orleans' buses — which might have been used for evacuating poor or elderly people — to sit idle in parking lots that were part of the first sections of the city flooded. In the September 1 interview, he said driving school buses had been proposed, and that he wanted every Greyhound bus line moving to New Orleans. On a September 11 appearance on Meet the Press, Nagin said the buses sat unused because there was no one to drive them.(It doesn’t take a NASA Engeneer to Drive a Bus)

FEMA, Boy there is a piece of work. We still have hundreds of FEMA Trailers rotting in Baton Rouge, most have never been used. The trailers were only to be occupied for 18 months. Most of the elderly and sick have been taken care of. After almost 2.5 years, we still have FEMA Trailer Parks occupied by mostly Free Loaders.

The day before Katrina hit I received a call from a concerned friend in Memphis and offered his home to me. I explained that I am about 90 miles North of New Orleans and should be safe. I was safe but had no phones of electricity for 2 weeks. I also explained I felt sorry for the Sick and Elderly that are stuck their but, it is mostly looters waiting to ravage the city. I never will forget the Moron carrying the TV on his shoulders in chest deep water.

[sfbaygirl]

Hope you are feeling better. Did you get that anemia?  What an interesting story about Katrina.  You were there!  Geez,  what a mess!  So do you blame Nagin?  He was re elected wasn't he?  And then there is the awful Govenor.  Then the non response from the Feds Fema until it was to late.  What an awful mess all made!  

I tried to get help through FEMA during the earthquake in '89.  So much paper work it never happened.  Glad you were out of the way.  Must have been really fun with no power!!

Glad you are feeling better!  Nice post.

Linda

[IAmTheWalrus]

Been watching this thread and reading some very interesting comments. I think there was not much Bush could have done to prevent Katrina (despite the implications from the left).  Mainly, nature is the culprit. Entropy will always increase. But it seems that we need to assign blame when there is loss of life and property. This natural tendency is exploited by politicians to gain political advantage. Why turn your back on a perfectly convenient disaster to help the partisan cause! I do not imply that only the liberals are likely to exploit such events :)

R Glass - Sorry to hear about the difficulties you are having on TX (as well as others who are homebound). It makes me feel lucky indeed to be able to continue at least most of my life. I am useless on weekends, though. My doc has prescribed Provigil. I find this helps me get up and be more active, though it then also makes it difficult to sleep at night (maybe I need to lower the dose). It works on the center of the brain that controls wakefulness, so it helps with mental fatigue, but probably won't help that gasping for breath feeling when you have to climb a few stairs. Don't know if that would work for you. In any case, hold the timer on the bomb until I get the results of the PCR. I just finished 24 weeks on TX and will continue (for another 48 weeks) if I am UND. So, my dillema is this: do I want the bomb to go off if I am NOT UND and have to stop treatment, or it if I AM UND and have to do 48 more weeks of this c&%?  :)

[R Glass]

Yes I do feel better and thanks for asking. My last Blood Work showed I am not anemic but I am border line (what ever the hell that means) and my platelets are low. I asked them what I should be doing and was told to stay away from sharp objects. I thought. It is 2008 and stay away from sharp objects is the best you can come up with.
Back to Katrina, yes Nagin was re-elected Mayor but it was one of the most fraudulent elections ever held. This will be another story for another time. The Story of The Florida Ballots can’t hold a candle to the Nagin Re-election
I Blame Blanco, Nagin, FEMA, and yes some of the blame has to go back on the shoulders of quite a few of the “So Called Stranded.” If you look at some of the Old News Clips, you will see the sick and the elderly. For the most part, you will see young and able bodied people that could have walked to safer ground if they would have left when the “Voluntary Evacuation was issued, or even drove the hundreds of busses left abandoned. Don’t forget, we are talking about New Orleans; they didn’t need the keys to the buses.
The reason why I do not fault the Bush administration is because they basically had to take over New Orleans from Blanco.
Michael Chertoff, Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, decided to take over the federal, state, and local operations officially on August 30, 2005, citing the National Response Plan. On August 31 Gen. (Lt.) Honoree to take over the National Guard and restore Law and Order in New Orleans.

[Forseegood]

and I want to take a break from being political, God knows I need to...but if somehow we made some type of analogy...and say, we had a flood here, and there was a that many handsomely paid people here in Malibu, stranded and waiting to get out...does anybody here think that these people wouldn't have gotten a tad better response from the govt, fema, everybody involved? Do you think that they'd be left in stadiums with nothing but their own sweat to live on for days on end? I don't think this issue is so much racist, as classist....(with maybe a little racism there, who knows?) course this is all speculation and hypotheticals which mean practically nothing...but that's just my gut feeling, for whatevers that worth....

[IAmTheWalrus]

The residents of Malibu are probably better situated to help themselves. And Calif would not let them stew in their own sweat, regardless of FEMA, etc. If it was Compton, instead of Malibu, well ...... who knows? I guess that is your point.

[Forseegood]

hey, you know youre way around here huh? tomorrow I am doing my annual thing that I do each year with my friends....we're going to the snow in the mountains in Angeles Crest (about an hour drive) then we're going to Malibu for dinner...it's kind of surreal to do this...there's a lot of snow in the mountains around here right now...my doggie's gonna love it!

[Forseegood]

just wanted to say, you look very handsome in your pic, and your granddaughter is a little doll! what a cutie....very nice pic....

[sfbaygirl]

Glad to hear you are better. I had low platelets too. Down to 60 at one point.  They are back up to 144 as of Nov.  amazing.  

I love your take on Katrina. You are so right.  Chertoff was the biggest fraud, haven't heard about your Gov. but I believe you.  What a sham and a shame.  New Orleans is gone, that is a damn shame and it didn't have to be if we had only listened to the engineers.  Very sad.  

Yep,  people take advantage of situations like New Orleans. They could have taken the buses and didn't. I am sure even without keys, some could have hot wired those buses.  And those that are just staying on, years afterwards in FEMA trailers.....almost like welfare, huh?  Although,  I do believe some deserve welfare, most ruined it for themselves by abusing it.  

As far as Malibu,  I think New Orleans was a pretty hot spot too.  If not for the Gov. and Chertoff, perhaps if they were in charge of Malibu, it would have gone down too. Although, with the money in Malibu, I am sure they would have gotten out despite the Gov, Chertoff or anyone else!!

[sfbaygirl]

Please post your labs, specifically the WBC and HGB and ANC..  Reading these labs became a real passion of mine, since the Dr's don't give a damn.  Also where did you start. Was your Hgb (hemoglobin) at 16 and 4 weeks later 11?  That makes a huge difference.  Get copies of all your labs and if you are dropping as you say, get a standing order so you can get tested once a week, if needed.  Off topic,  but this stuff I do know. Politics, love to dabble in but since tx I have researched more hep stuff than politics.  You can PM me or post here, whatever. I am concerned about you.

[R Glass]

If you can give me about a week and a half I will have my 4th week labs in and while I am there I will get copies of all of my Blood Work. My 2 week labs showed my Enzymes have returned to normal. I would be more than happy to share them and appreciate ya’ll explaining them to me because I don’t quite understand all of them. Going to bed now and hope all has a good night’s rest.

[R Glass]

If you can give me about a week and a half I will have my 4th week labs in and while I am there I will get copies of all of my Blood Work. My 2 week labs showed my Enzymes have returned to normal. I would be more than happy to share them and appreciate ya’ll explaining them to me because I don’t quite understand all of them. Going to bed now and hope all has a good night’s rest.

[sfbaygirl]

Have a good restoritive sleep.  I appreiciate your comments, although I may not disagree at times, you are respectiful and can debate with dignity.  I will be happy to look over your labs. After 47 weeks of looking at MY labs, I have become pretty good at it.  

Hugs!
Linda