Jim/Kalio

Did you see my reply to Proactive's post on the Forum? Hate to be left hanging when I was so tottttaaalllly right and all!JK! But I didn't think either of you would go down w/o a fight!
"Am I just paranoid or am I being ignored?"
Thankd goodness for OrphanHawk replying or I would really be over the edge.
Bug

[jmjm530]

OK, let's fight. What am I fighting about. Burt what are we fighting about. I forgot :)

[ladybug52]

It's right here baby: http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/45833.html.
Well, I'm just wanted one final rant before I watched AI which hopefully recorded earlier. I can't lookat my own thread because I'm afraid someone has said who got voted off the island this week!
Good night!
Bug

[wyntre9]

I loved your rant.

You are a wonderful lady.

A book I read recently by Bernie Siegel; "lessons learned about self-healing from a surgeon's experience with exceptional patients" says the same thing you said on the other side.

And as someone involved with health care and interacting with patients, you have a perspective way beyond that of most (including me) who aren't in the field.

Hawke,

Thanks for flying to the rescue!

wyntre

[jmjm530]

OK. I found the post actually before you humiliated me with the memory thing. LOL.  

Wasn't ignoring you, just thought I'd leave it alone after I made my point which was basically to agree with Kalio's point.  

To elaborate on my own now, which I think is what you're asking -- yes, things aren't always black and white and in fact often grey. But it's stuff like studies and anecdotal experiences that help us make decisions. You know, the idea about studying history so history doesn't repeat itself.

The last thing I'd want to do is to take away someone's hope. In fact I  treated myself when the odds were against me. But I made the decision based on study data and my doctor's advice -- in a nutshell, weighing the risks of treating versus the rewards, factoring in what I thought was a reasonable expectation of getting cured.

Others, might take that same study data and advice and come to another conclusion. Again, no black or white.

If I thought I had one chance in a hundred to cure myself of disease "X", I'd take that one chance and ignore the odds if I thought the rewards outweighed the risks. With Hep C, somethimes they do, sometimes they don't. It ends up being an individual decsion. Not sure if we really disagree all that much but hope this clarifies.

As to AI -- I vote for Jennifer Lopez. She was hot, hot, hot tonight :)

All the best,

-- Jim

[ladybug52]

You two are angels! You don't have to be in the medical career field to believe in hope, prayers and miracles!
Elaine: Jboyhk posted a treatment web site for hep c. I was going to send it to you but I've copied and pasted this morning so much I think it'll be faster for you to go to the forum. (Faster for me anyhow!!)
Love and hugs
Bug

[jmjm530]

Just to comment a little more on "hope, miracles, and prayer", I believe in all three and did all three on treatment with daily prayers.

The point made in the other thread did not have to do with statistics versus hope but more on what battles make sense fighting and what battles may not. In the case of certain life-threatening cancers -- and I'll just use it as an example -- there is not choice. The battle must be engaged whatever the odds. But in the case of Hepatitis C, it's not always that cut and dry.

Hepatitis C can be a life-threatening condition, but often it is not. For those with little or no liver damage, choices are available, including waiting on treatment, especially for those with little or no liver damage. In the same vein, the treatment process itself can be reasonably driven by how much is at stake, which for many of us involves how much liver damage we have. Therefore when the odds of clearing the virus start to sharply decline in those with little or no liver damage do to lack of viral response -- it's not giving up hope to consider stopping, it's just making a reasonable decision taking into account that the treatment drugs themselves may be doing more harm than good in a particular case.

Pick your battles wisely is all I'm saying.

-- Jim

[mikesimon]

About Intercessory Prayer: The Scientific Study of Miracles

Link: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/552742?src=mp

Mike

[Myown]

http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/probing-power-of-prayer

excerpt:
"A recent, controversial study of cardiac patients conducted at St. Luke's Hospital in Kansas City, Missouri, concludes that this type of prayer -- known as intercessory prayer -- may indeed make a difference. "Prayer may be an effective adjunct to standard medical care," says cardiac researcher William Harris, Ph.D., who headed the St. Luke's study. The study was published in the October 25, 1999 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine."

[mikesimon]

Here is another excerpt from http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/552742?src=mp

Meanwhile, experimenters seek evidence of this breathtaking immensity by searching for a barely measurable difference between the arterial blood flow of a few cardiovascular patients who were prayed for and a few other unfortunates who were not . . . a difference in blood pressure between 1 group of hypertensives who were prayed for and another group that was not prayed for. It is as if one were asking a composer with a quadrillion times the musical capacity and comprehension of a Ludwig Von Beethoven to demonstrate his musicianship by writing out the notes to "Three Blind Mice."

How petty and insulting to whatever deity these investigators claim to be investigating, when the most they can ask of that which has created biologic systems from algae to sequoia giganticus and amoebas to human brains "Let me see if you can fertilize this ovum in a Petri dish with one of your hands tied behind your back"

"For example, one very simple experiment, the results of which would leave little or no doubt about the effectiveness of intercessory prayer, could involve the regeneration of an amputated limb.[9] All that would be required is an adequate sample of amputees as subjects and a sizeable number of believers who will earnestly pray over them. These should not be hard to locate. The investigators could use as many universities and people as possible -- all the willing believers in the country if necessary to pray every day for a year that at least one amputee would have a limb re-grown, and then, at the end of that year, examine all the thousands of amputees for signs of regenerating limbs."

Mike

[Myown]

Are you an atheist or agnostic? I'm not being snippy, just want to know, unless you don't want to answer. Lets keep it nice though okay. We can if we try.

[jmjm530]

I will pray for you both as I can only imagine where this one is going :)

[mikesimon]

I'm neither. Mike

[Myown]

Okay, but you don't believe in prayer? Or do you?

[jmjm530]

Now I will pray for the rest of us as I can only imagine where this is going.

[Myown]

I will pray for you both as I can only imagine where this one is going :)
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That was funny. I had to laugh at that one.

Can I tag you (like a wrestling tag team) to take over my converstion with Mike concerning prayer. He's taking too long to answer and I have to run out for a while. Don't be snippy or fresh when standing in for me. Mike and I are being real nice to each other as you can see. If our converstion goes beyond 2 posts and we are not at each others throats Mike and I consider that "answered prayer."

[jmjm530]

MO: Can I tag you (like a wrestling tag team) to take over my converstion with Mike concerning prayer.
---------------------------------
Nope.

[jmjm530]

Tell you what, I'll save you the time and play both of you:
-----------------------------------------------------

MO: So Mike, you're telling me you don't pray for your horses...whoops forgot you sold them to house your motorcyles.

Mike: I don't pray for my motorcycles either. Well, maybe my Harley, but that's sort of required.

MO: Well, did you hire someone to pray for you growing up, given your vast billion dollar inheritance?

Mike: Yes, we had several in help who did nothing but pray for us, but it was my wife with the big bucks remember?

MO: Thanks for sharing, you seem to be a much more sensitive person since you met me.

Mike: I'm not sure "sensitive" and shell-shocked are the same thing.
-------------------------

To be continued....

[jmjm530]

MO: C'mon Mike, you know I'm starting to grow on you.

Mike: So is that fungus under my nail, I'm not sure what you point is.

MO: Comparing me to a fungus, hey. I'd be insulted but I know that's code talk for you really want me.

Mike: Certainly not "Morse" code. Maybe "Mars" code?

MO: Oh, that's really funny, Mike, did you think that up all your own.

Mike: No, I got that line from one of my paid writers. You know the ones who also write the prayers.

MO: Well, got to go sing at Church now. See ya!

Mike: Give my regards to your pastor. In fact, you might give him some of your riba. Given his HCV, he may need it and you can probably kill the virus on your own at this point.

--------------------

[mikesimon]

Jim, that was far better than what I would have come up with. I thought it was very funny.
Myown, If you read and comprehended the article, which I seriously doubt, you would have understood that the thrust of the article was not that there is no God or that prayer is without benefit. The point was that million upon millions of dollars are spent on "scientific research" trying to establish that prayer can result in miraculous healing but the research is aimed at finding minuscule variations between those prayed for and those unfortunate people who do without the benefit of prayer. And it's silly and rather trite and worst of all wasteful, in his opinion. I happen to share that opinion. I think prayer can be of benefit but probably not for the reason that you believe it can. I believe that a sense of well being can be helpful and perhaps even curative and if a person gets that through prayer then it is beneficial. Likewise if a person gets it through meditation, yoga, music or anyway at all I believe it is beneficial. But I do not believe that God alters his perfect plan as a result of prayer or petition. I think God is beyond that. I think God got it right the first time because after all, God is perfect.
Mike

[jmjm530]

Actually, having a somewhat related thread over on the other side, regarding a recent study on Tai Chi's potential effect on the immune system:
http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis/messages/45881.html

[Myown]

I asked you your stance only because  I read the excerpt referring to the amputees. I would assume by your own description of yourself as to not being 'religious,' that you wouldn't believe it possible for a miracle of that sort, whereas I do believe in the power of prayer, not that I understand all aspects, but then again God did say"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts". (Isaiah 55:8-9)

Mike you said:
But I do not believe that God alters his perfect plan as a result of prayer or petition. I think God is beyond that. I think God got it right the first time because after all, God is perfect.

Well to use your own words (but I will replace one or two to make my point:)

If you read and comprehended the BIBLE, which I seriously doubt, you would have understood that the TRUTH of the BIBLE is that GOD DOES ALTER his plan as a result of prayer or petition:


       A.     Because the Lord God did not find anyone to "stand in the gap," to intercede for the land, He was requited to pour out the judgment due its disobedience.    

                    Ezekiel 22:30-31

       B.     He would not have destroyed Sodom, because of Abraham's persistence, had He been able to find ten righteous men in the city.  

                    Genesis 18:23-32

       C.     Moses' intercession for the people of God, in pleading with the Lord for mercy, held back the hand of God from consuming the nation in His wrath.    

                     Exodus 32:7-14; Deuteronomy 9:8-9, 12-20, 23-27, etc.; Psalms 106:23

       D.     Because "prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God," Peter's "chains fell off from his hands," "the iron gate ... opened to them of its own accord," and he was led out of the prison by an angel of God!  

                      Acts 12:5-12, etc.

       E. God told Jeremiah to search the city and see if he could find even one righteous man; that then He would spare the entire city (chapter 5:1). But Jeremiah knew that their hearts were all hardened against the Lord; that they were reprobate, beyond the place of repentance (ch. 5:3). God told him therefore to not even intercede for them (ch. 7:16; 11:14; 14:11).


II.   God Himself seeks faithful intercessors.

              Psalms 14:2 (2 Chronicles 16 :9) "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children

                  of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God."

              Ezekiel 22 :30 "And l sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge,

                   and stand in the gap before Me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none."

       A.    The ministry of intercession is of divine appointment.  

                     Isaiah 62:6   "I have set . . ."

       B.    But it is the responsibility of each individual to take the initiative to "stir himself up

               to take hold of" God.  

                     Isaiah 64:7

       C.    Scripture says that God was amazed "and wondered that there was no intercessor."

                      Isaiah 59:16

III.    The Bible expresses in a descriptive way the very nature of this ministry and the great heaviness of spirit and burden of prayer experienced by those in intercession.

       A.     "Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people. Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission, till the Lord look down, and behold from heaven."  

                       Lamentations 3:48-50

       B.    Job cried, "Oh, that one might plead for a man with God, as a man pleadeth for his neighbor!"

                        Job 16:21

       C.    When God speaks of His intercessors ("watchmen") and their persistence in prayer,

               He says that they "never hold their peace day nor night" and "give Him no rest."  

                        Isaiah 62:6-7; Lamentations 2:18-19

       D.    "Their heart cried unto the Lord, O wall of the daughter of Zion, let tears run down

              like a river day and night: give thyself no rest; let not the apple of thine eye cease.

              Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like

              water before the face of the Lord ..."  

                       Lamentation 2:18-19

       E.    "Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar,

              and let them say, Spare Thy people, O Lord, and give not Thine heritage to reproach..."

                        Joel 2:17

       F.    Moses told the children of Israel that in his intercession for them "I stood between

              the Lord and you."  

                        Deuteronomy 5:5; Psalms 106:23

       G.    Jesus "began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy; and saith unto them

              (his disciples), My soul is exceeding sorrowful ... And He went forward a little, and

              fell on the ground, and prayed . . ."  

                       Mark 14:33-35


IV.   Certain people should be the focus of intercessory prayer on a regular basis.


       A.   Leaders and government authorities.  

                     I Timothy 2 :1-2

       B.   The people of God.  

                     Joel 2:12-13, 17; Romans 1:9; Ephesians 6:18

       C.   Those in spiritual leadership.

                     2 Corinthians 1:11; I Thessalonians 5:25; Hebrews 13:17-18a    

              1.  That they may have boldness to speak the truth.  

                         Ephesians 6:19-20

              2.  For their divine protection, spiritual strength, and victory over the enemy.  

                        Luke 22:31-32 ; John 17:15; Acts 12:5; 2 Thessalonians 3:1-2

              3.  That they will have an open door of ministry.  

                        Romans 15:30-32; Colossians 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 3:1-2

       D.    The community in which we live, or any city or nation.  

                       Psalms 112:6; Jeremiah 29:7; Daniel 9:3, 16-19


V.    True intercession involves more than prayer in general. The intercessor bears a sense

        of burden and responsibility.


       A.    Great cries and tears in travail of prayer are known to those who have felt the

               urgency of a burden revealed to them by God.  

                     Ezra 10:1; Nehemiah 1:4; Isaiah 22:4 Jeremiah 13:17; 23:9

                     Lamentations 2:18-19; 3:48-51; Joel 2:12-13, 17; Hebrews 5:7

       B.    It often involves fasting.  

                     Deuteronomy 9:8-9, 12-20, 12-27; Ezra 10:6; Daniel 9:3-4

                     Joel 2:12-14, 17-18; Jonah 3:5-10


VI.   Characteristics of a successful intercessor.


       A.   Persistence and determination.  

                     Isaiah 62:6-7

                     Lamentations 2:18-19 "keep not silence, and give Him no rest...day and night ..."

       B.   Patience.  

                     Isaiah 62:6-7; Lamentations 2:18-19

       C.   Faith.  

                     Isaiah 64:7

       D.   Severe self-discipline and selflessness (due to personal identification with the need).

                     Mark 14:33-35; Lamentations 3:48-50




What always amazes me is that most people claim they believe in God yet have never read his word or at least not in depth as they would a 2007 hep c trial.

You or I can only know God through His Word. That is the only way. Can a person know his inheritance without reading the will or know what his insurance covers without reading the policy. No they can only guess, assume or listen to what 'others' say and formulate what they call 'their opinion.'

My belief is not based on MY opinion, its on HIs WORD.

[orphanedhawk]

I should probably stay outta this but, stating God's word  by quoting the scriptures only works if the person believes the words are God's and not just some ancient person's or one of King James toadies.
       Personally, God whispers in my heart !

[Myown]

Well your first little story was cute as I told you, but again you went a little to far with the kind of nonsense that I don't care for. I let it slide once but I will say something now.

I don't care for comments such as this one that you made "I'd be insulted but I know that's code talk for you really want me."

See this is the exact reason why sometimes women can't be friends with men. I have many male friends and I joke with them and they joke with me and guess what? I have never heard comments such as that thrown around.

I know we all don't know each other well except as forum members, but this is exactly the reason why when Mike once said that he and Rev talk on the phone and that he would talk to me too. I don't think he had any motive or agenda except to be friends, but because of how some men think, I don't give my phone number out to a male friend that I don't know well and so I didn't.

You have proven my point and not only that any of the conversing back and forth that I had with Mike ends here because of your comment. He'll probably thank you anyhow because we always fight and give each other a headache anyhow.

I think that people can joke or talk without little crappy comments like that.

[Myown]

I should probably stay outta this but, stating God's word by quoting the scriptures only works if the person believes the words are God's
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are 100% correct. I agree and so does Gods Word for that matter.

Too tired too give you all the scripture to back up your statement, but you are right. Gods Word can only be received thru an OPEN heart. If one reads the Word with his mind only, he will not recieve it as truth. Thats the reason many scientists are atheists. Brilliant minds are sometimes the last to recieve the Word as truth, but I have had 2 prior Pastors,both former atheists, one a scientist/atheist who recieved God in his heart and because of being a scientist he is able to reach others in his field, so God knows who will reach who and He uses them.

[Htownwife]

My husband majored in physics in college, and both my sons are biology majors. One is doing cancer research at University of Oklahoma, and the other is a freshman in college. All three are strong believers in God and the power of prayer, and don't see a contradiction in belief and science. I agree that many scientists are athiests, but there are just as many that aren't.

My church has many in the scientific fields that are strong Christians.
Our pastor was a PreMed major before he became a pastor.
Belief and faith are the center of my family's life.

I was upset at work one day (I'm a teacher.)
My principal who I was talking to got up, closed her door, looked at me and said, "you have a strong faith, now you need to lean on it."
She took my hand and prayed for me.

I can tell you my respect for her increased right then and there, and I felt totally understood and supported.

Prayer is powerful.

[orphanedhawk]

I am not an atheist. I do beleive in tolerance, open minds and hearts. Save your sciptures for someone other than I. I will join you in compassion and love for all people.   Peace.     OH

[jmjm530]

MO:I don't care for comments such as this one that you made "I'd be insulted but I know that's code talk for you really want me."
---------------------------------------------
I'm a little puzzled because what I was doing was a paradody of statements you've already made to Mike, and unless my memory is worse than I think it is, you have used similar words yourself regarding Mike "wanting" you. Haven't you?

I understood your statements to be in jest and so were mine. It was just a parody. I do apologize for the parody in that it appears to have offended at least one of you.

[Myown]

You are blessed to have a family of strong believers. And yes there are more and more scientists becoming believers, without a doubt.

If you can get a hold of the book  "Origins and Destiny" by Dr. Robert Gange, it is a great read. You and your family would love the book.

That's great that you have a principal who believes. That was so nice of her to pray with you. He watches over us and sends us who we need just at the right time. Always amazes me.

[Myown]

MO MO:I don't care for comments such as this one that you made "I'd be insulted but I know that's code talk for you really want me."
---------------------------------------------
I'm a little puzzled because what I was doing was a paradody of statements you've already made to Mike, and unless my memory is worse than I think it is, you have used similar words yourself regarding Mike "wanting" you. Haven't you?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never ever.  I have joked and said his personality has improved etc, but never nothing of that nature to him or any man.

Lets drop it. As I said, so that there is no confusion, I won't post to Mike anymore and whoever else I choose not to converse with.

And ya know what I can smell the Paul Newmans popcorn on the forum. I'm tired of being everyones entertainment.

[jmjm530]

Let me try and clarify and then I'll let it go. First, it was all a parody, in jest. I wasn't parodying that you said you wanted Mike, but the parody was that you were saying that he wanted you. I based that on your post here:

----------------------------------------
MyOwn to MikeSimon:

You will miss me. I'm sure you will read my posts and think back at the short time we had together. (when you fell in love)
-----------------------------------------------

Full thread here: http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Hepatitis-Community/messages/441.html
(post C43)
--------------------------------------------------
Of course, I understood you were just kidding in your statement above, just like I was kidding in my parody.

One thing I've learned from this is that everyone has a different sense of humor and/or I'm not always good at conveying what I think I am.

Well, I'm done here, and if you're still mad at me, so be it, but not sure why you're taking it out on Mike by not posting to him anymore. I wrote the parody. Mike did not.

Enuf said by me on this.

Be well everyone,

-- Jim  

[Kalio1]

There is no reason a patient can't stay positive and at the same time approach treament sceintifically and realistically.In fact, those that have to face a slow response or a non response will have to draw on their positivity even more I would think. It isn't an either or situation, either you are positive or you consider the statistical chances, you can do both.
In no way was I saying that positivity wasn't important to better health but making treatment decisions and not using all the hard earned statistical "proof" doesn't make sense to me.
No one wants to hear negative news about their progress when they are sick but it is important they are aware of the realities of what they face in my view and with Hep C, one of the realities is that not all patients respond to treatment or respond quickly enough and at that point the approach needs reevaluating.
You seem to have taken my comments as if they were meant for Ladybug ( or anyone) personally and that isn't the case, I was speaking in general terms and not to "her" specifically.

[Myown]

Well I don't remember that line, but I can see it was a hopped up speedy riba night for me,so I guess nothing would surprise me, but it does in a way because I actually don't remember that comment, tho said. But truth is always remembered and that was not something said as truth to Mike, it obviously was a joke.

But still and all I don't care for some things you have said lately and I let them slide and that is what put me in the frame of mind when I read your post. It was the straw that broke the camels back. I'm not mad at you and maybe when I am off meds, I might not understand why I felt offended by your joke. But until then this is how I feel at this moment.

Ends here. As I said, I'm tired of being the entertainment. You can look up my email if you have more to say.

Take care.

[jmjm530]

Again, sorry you have found some of my comments offensive and in the future I will keep my posts to you only related to treatment issues and only if asked. As you rightly said earlier, most of us really don't know each other all that well, and sometimes things can be taken for granted that shouldn't. Never meant to make fun of you, just have fun, but that obviously isn't getting communicated and I'll take my share of responsibility for that.

-- Jim

[ladybug52]

First, I have to apologize because I am guilty for saying in jest, "MS has it bad for you:)" I WAS kidding, and I didn't realize at the time that it was in poor taste. I know MIke loves his wife and you love your husband, but like Jim I didn't know it was embarrassing or compromising your principles to joke about that. I was just trying to make a joke.
You are just hard to read sometimes. We can't see each other and I tell you constantly how funny you are. I think you have a flip, sarcastic dry sense of humor. When we are around someone funny, we respond with humor. We want to be funny too!  Jim was really funny in his parody of you and Mike. I think he probably writes for some comedy series and is filthy rich but keeps it a secret. He meant no harm. He's always been one of your biggest supporters and friends. If you feel like you're the entertainment be flattered! We have enough sadness and pain in our lifes, and laughter and smiles help. It wasn't meant derogatory in any way, nor did it sound like he was trying to put you in a bad light. I have to stop for now. I always considered you a fun intelligent person with strong beliefs, but maybe I really don't know how to get along with you. It doesn't change my opinion of you, I just have to re-evaluate how I interact with you. I thought it was hilarious when you posted "Ladybug is a Liar!" The truth shall set you free! That's why I said it first!
Take care
Bug

[mikesimon]

I am very familiar with my Old Testament and I have read your New Testament but I am not as knowledgeable about it. We just see things very differently. I think that's okay as I am not out to convert you to my belief system and furthermore I do not believe that your beliefs will condemn you to eternal damnation. I wonder if you can say the same about me. Since I posted only an excerpt from the article you might have understood better what it said had you taken the time to read it - it is only 4 pages. I generally refrain from discussing this stuff with people who say that they talk with God. I am sure that suicide bombers would say that they talk with God and that they are instructed by God to blow themselves up. Their faith and belief must be very strong but notwithstanding their faith I don't believe they're right. I doubt one could ever reason with that type of believer. How can you argue with them - they must be right because they talk with God. Mike

[mikesimon]

I didn't think anything you said was malevolent or mean spirited. It was a parody and I found it funny. I was not offended because I think we have been around each other long enough to take a little liberty now and again. Myown has taken liberties like that but perhaps she doesn't realize or remember it or maybe it's the ribavirin. Do we all have to think the same or have the same beliefs and do we all have to have the same sense of humor? What a dreary world that would be! I thought this side of MH was intended for us to have a place to chat and discuss non-HCV related subjects and let our collective hair down. I enjoy it and if it gets a little personal so what? Myown had characterized me as a spoiled rich kid when I don't recall ever suggesting anything like that unless the fact that I am an attorney or have a business is proof of wealth. I wasn't offended - it was all in fun or so I thought. Don't have any self recriminations about this because it was all in fun and most everyone who reads it will see it for what it is - just fun dancing around a very serious and heart breaking disease. Take care Jim. Mike

[jmjm530]

Your words express my thoughts a lot better than my previous post which may have come off a bit cold.  Still, looking back, the parody was a bad idea for the commotion it caused and I would think twice before doing similar again. I should also know better than trying to play "peacemaker" with two people who are adult enough to deal with it on their own. In trying to make things better, just made it a worse.

All said, I don't let you off the hook Bug since you started this thread :) I tried to leave the whole topic behind from the previous thread, but no, you just had to bring it up again and get my opinion :)

Be well,

-- Jim

[jmjm530]

Thanks Mike, it means a lot.

I do remember, however, when I was the object of parody several times when on treatment and I wasn't amused. The difference I think is that the parody of you and MyOwn came out of like, respect and friendship (the parody of me did not) and I think you know that, and hopefully so does MyOwn. Still, parody/humor/satire, is often not easy to convey on the internet where we often don't know the other person very well and are unable to get the normal conversational feedbacks such as voice intonation, body language, etc.

Be well,

-- Jim

[mikesimon]

You're right and when we don't have the benefit of facial expressions and body language we are playing in the dark and the wrong impressions can be made and inferred. I like Myown a lot and I think she knows it or at least suspects it. I wouldn't play around with someone I didn't care for. I am upset that she is upset because TX does change things and I forget about that sometimes. I spent 4.5 years on TX so you'd think the effects would be in my top of the mind awareness but I do forget about it. It's only when I see something that I cannot explain or a reaction that I did not anticipate that it dawns on me that this person is treating and that's probably it. Like I said, I like her and hope she comes back and feels okay about you and about me and about being here. Mike

[missy60051]

Wow,  I really hope you're kidding and is a funny dry sense of humor.
It's  a little scary to see someone gets so offended.
Don't want to step on anyones toes or argue about it.

Geezzz! calm down.  It's not that bad.  It put a smile on my face, but then I got scared.
Bye

[ladybug52]

'All said, I don't let you off the hook Bug since you started this thread :) I tried to leave the whole topic behind from the previous thread, but no, you just had to bring it up again and get my opinion :)'

You know I started this post in a post-riba rant, but I can honestly say that you are the one who turned it all ugly!
It's funny because, although we don't see each other or hear the tone of voice that goes with it, I still think we get to know each other pretty well, for a group of faceless strangers, we do pretty good most of the time. The forum is not near as much fun as it is over here. When I first started reading your posts, I thought you were a smart robot. You could quote med info, stats, interpret labwork, stay up on research, but not much personality came through (to me)
Now, I realize that you are very funny, can laugh at yourself, and can do some very good creative writing!
I'm sorry that things got twisted and turned upside down here.
Bug

[ladybug52]

Now I'm worried that you think I was serious about blaming you for everything getting ugly! I worry all the time that people don't 'get' my sense of humor, and I know with all the emotions flying during this thread, you might have thought I really was blaming you. I don't really think you would, but like I said, I worry about everything. A little too co-dependent perhaps?
Be well, be good:)
Bug

[Myown]

miss ladybug, I'm not mad at you for anything.  I think a lot of you... when I said tired of being the entertaninment, I didn't mean as it as a comic,there are always plenty of comics around here, ,, I meant it as "friday nite at the fights,"but anyhow neither here nor there, I just needed to take a break for a bit. And btw,you are one of the funny folks. I always laugh (out loud too -ha) when I read your posts.

Elaine,  thanks, you're always so concerned about everyone. You are so nice and always a pleasure to be around.

I hope Nick is doing well.

[Myown]

I do remember, however, when I was the object of parody several times when on treatment and I wasn't amused. The difference I think is that the parody of you and MyOwn came out of like, respect and friendship (the parody of me did not) and I think you know that, and hopefully so does MyOwn. Still, parody/humor/satire, is often not easy to convey on the internet where we often don't know the other person very well and are unable to get the normal conversational feedbacks such as voice intonation, body language, etc
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim, really don't worry about it. It's me and this stupid riba. I sometimes have alot of trouble seeing clearly. It comes and goes. You know I think very highly of you. I always will too, really.

Pay no attention to me if I get like that again, it will pass and I will snap out of it. Don't worry about weighing every word before you speak to me, I know your heart and I know that you would never intentionally hurt me,(mikesimon would tho ha!) so if I get 'nutty,' just tell me I misunderstood you or just pay no attention to me for a few days or something. Don't let it upset you tho. I don't want that. I hope your still my buddy. I hope you see this post.

[Myown]

I like Myown a lot and I think she knows it or at least suspects it. I wouldn't play around with someone I didn't care for. I am upset that she is upset because TX does change things and I forget about that sometimes. I spent 4.5 years on TX so you'd think the effects

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike,
That was very sweet of you to say. I'm sorry if you felt upset. As I said to Jim, just pay me no mind, okay? Little wacky around the edges lately. Somedays I'm fine, other days not so fine. I feel like everything gets on my nerves on somedays and it seems it can all happen within a minute.

I shouldn't complain because you treated so long, I can't even imagine what that could have been like.

You raised a few points I'd like to address (religious) but I'll hold on that one. I don't mean in a bad way, just to touch on a few things.

gotta run, see ya later.

[mikesimon]

I appreciate your post and I thank you for it. I did feel badly that I thought I may have upset you or hurt you because I really don't want to hurt anyone and you in particular. You were right when you said that you've grown on me. Take care of yourself. Mike

[Myown]

Wow, I really hope you're kidding and is a funny dry sense of humor.
It's a little scary to see someone gets so offended.
Don't want to step on anyones toes or argue about it.

Geezzz! calm down. It's not that bad. It put a smile on my face, but then I got scared.
Bye
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do I know you? I don't think I do, so mind your own business.

[Myown]

You were right when you said that you've grown on me
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That line was actually from Jims parody. So you're saying I am a fungus? ha!  Sorry if it keeps you up all night scratching.

But on a serious note... I read in a post you have diabetes. Is that type 1 or 2? I'm asking because I just read something on 2 and how it should be controlled without the drugs and just diet. Does that sound reasonable? I'll try to locate the article. I don't know much about diabetes, so I can't get into a debate with you about it, so relax. hehe

[jmjm530]

MO: I hope your still my buddy.
-------------------------------
Of course, and good to see you back. Very funny with the "fungus" come back to Mike's post :)

-- Jim

[ladybug52]

Hi darlin, this tx can make us tired and tired of each other! It just happens. I wouldn't want you any other way, Personality wise, whether it's funny, flippant or mad sometimes. You have a lot on your plate and we sometimes can't see how the riba plays tricks with your mind. Thanks goodness I have a big family that never fails to point out my temper, memory lapses or poor judgement.
I say things w/o thinking. Hows this for a foot in mouth: I met a patient for the first time Friday with beautiful blue eyes. I complimented her and she said "well honey, I'm legally blind, these eyes can't see" Before I could stop myself I said "Well, If I was blind I would want beautiful eyes like yours at least!"
Hmmm, nice way to overlook the compassionate approach, just tell her she's lucky that she has PRETTY eyes at least! Who cares if your blind, those eyes are really special looking. Gee whiz!
How is your Mom doing? I hope she's ok.
Hugs Bug
PS Missy is really sweet, you know I jumped on poor pitter for having no sense of humor. It just happens. I think I said that twice already. Let me try agian...it just happens!

[Myown]

foot and mouth! ha you're too funny......but ya know what,,,bet i got ya beat in that!! and i have a feeling you may just believe that i do have ya beat or maybe we're neck and neck with the foot.


my mother well, i'm not looking forward to the appointment, but we have to find out. the doc will be back the end of the month and so we'll know then. thanks for asking. hoping its not you know what.  i don't want to sound self centered but the stress of it all will be tough if it is bad news. i'm praying all will work out.


as far as Missy, she wouldn't have received that post from me if she didn't stick her nose where it didn't belong. Not just once either. Her "lighten up" thread to pitter.

but anyhow I'm getting sleepy. got alot of running around to do tommorrow. gotta run into NY,and a zillion other things.

take care buggy.

[ladybug52]

I've already been worried about the stress of it all with your Mom and not knowing. I will add her to my worry/pray list.
No, I don't think any one could beat me in the foot in mouth dept. I was at a basball game talking about one of the little players to a friend (you can't imagine how bad this gets) I said "he doesn't play much, the coaches really have a hard time getting him to pay attention to them when he's on base"
My friend whispered "He's deaf and that's his Mom in front of you and she's not"
Or the time I said about the coach on the opposite team "All he does is yell, who could live with that?" And his wife sitting next to me informs me who she is and that she can live with "that" Had to quick go to the snack bar and find another seat!
Bug

[mikesimon]

I am type 2. It developed as a result of either HCV, transplant or the bolus steroid treatments I got for rejection or a combination of those events. A lot can be done through diet and exercise but I use insulin. I could use oral meds but I like the side effect profile of insulin vs oral drugs - and it's easier for me to control my blood sugar. I suppose if I was extremely careful with my diet I could cut down the insulin significantly but I am not that careful and I like to eat. I don't have a weight problem and my cholesterol is beautiful so I eat what I want and cover with insulin. Mike

[Myown]

http://www.mercola.com/

Oh okay, so you would rather take insulin, I wouldn't, but that's your choice. You like to eat food that tastes good. I know what you mean.Thats crumby that you got diabetes from hep or related.

Well anyhow that is the doctors website and if you wanted to do a search on his site you will find a video of him( I looked quick but couldn't find it again) where he was stressing the importance of those with type 2 to get off the insulin and control it with diet and exercise, but you're aware of controlling it thru diet and exercise, so okee- dokie.

I didn't think you had a weight problem though. I didn't mean it that way, incase you thought I did.   5'11' 180, thats not fat. But if do you gain weight let me know so I can address your posts "to chubby lawyer.".....  joking, don't get mad at meeeeeeeee.

I just came back from the doctors and I discussed with the NP about stopping at week 20 instead of 24.(Jim's gonna give me a high 5 I bet) I figured that since its  right in between the 16 and 24, I'll give it a try.Quitting after 16 weeks is a little scary to me, but 20 seems a little 'less scary.' I want to ask bug what week it was she quit . I think "amommy" stopped at 20.

But Np basically said if it comes back after 20, it would have come back after 24 too. So actually I'm glad I brought the subject up.The way the NP seemed she wouldn't have any problem with 16 weeks either, but she really didn't want to totally commit to that answer, so I just kept wording it by saying forget about me, "what would you do if it was you with hep and my stats?" so I sorta yanked it out of her.

I told NP I was feeling good except moody now and then( and then and then and then)..,,, but that I was concerned about post sx the longer I stayed on it.  

I'll post to Jim later about the 20 week possible decision. I can hear the excitement in his voice already. Ha! JIm's so into the shorter course stuff. Our cutting edge Jimmmmmiiie.

see ya later Miguel.

[Myown]

LOL You are the world record holder for foot in mouth. I've never heard stories that bad. ha! Really tho, OMG. I wouldn't tell my husband if I was you. Do you tell him EVERY story? Don't. I wouldn't. Give him one story a month and leave out the other 12. ha!

You are too funny. Those stories had me tense and worried for all involved while I was reading. ha!

[mikesimon]

I looked at the site but couldn't locate Dr. Mercola's credentials or much about him. It looks like a marketing site but I haven't spent enough time there to know. Thanks for the suggestions about diabetes but I have thought about it and studied  it so I do not expect to learn much form the good doctor, if in fact he is an MD. But, I will look at his site again and I'll let you know what I think later.

PS You did say that you were growing on me a while ago. I guess you don't remember the tender moments.

Mike

[Myown]

You did say that you were growing on me a while ago. I guess you don't remember the tender moments.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you referring to the cramp that you got in your hand that caused you to release the choke hold you had on my neck? I forgot about that. Yes Mike,  that was a tender moment for us, sorry for not remembering.

[Myown]

Michael,
You may have to give his website your email address, but he won't charge you for the newletter,nor will he push products on you. He does point you to studies and articles and doesn't just make things up as you probably think he does. Try to read with an open mind. I know thats hard for you cuz you are sooooooo against alternative medicine. Read for a while, not just two seconds while rolling your eyes and making faces.

[mikesimon]

When I was diagnosed in 1995 I went the alternative route. I did it all - macrobiotic diet, Ayurvedic medicine and I studied and practiced transcendental meditation daily. I believe there are huge benefits from all of those elements. Dr. Mercola just doesn't strike me as one of the enlightened few but I have yet to spend a lot of time with his site. I still practice meditation but not as frequently as I did. I believed I would heal my liver but it took a surgeon to really help me through that issue. I do think that often people find a site like his and believe that it is the be all and end all and I hope that it is but I come with a healthy degree of skepticism so excuse me if I am not blown away just yet. I will look at it more closely but I don't think I will be signing up for his newsletter. I already get enough mail as it is. Mike

[mikesimon]

By the way, did you ask the good doctor how he felt about you stopping your TX at 20 weeks? I am curious about his opinion, if he has one or does he stick strictly to diabetes? I sure hope you consulted with him on that issue before coming to a decision. Mike

[Myown]

I do think that often people find a site like his and believe that it is the be all and end all and I hope that it is but I come with a healthy degree of skepticism so excuse me if I am not blown away just yet.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not a "be all and end all" person with anything or anyone to tell you the truth. The only thing in life I am 100% sure about is invisible tho, so  I'm sure that at times that puts me in a certain category to some as 'believing anything."

But anyhow, I try to read as much as I can about alternative tx and how the body can heal itself naturally, but I also know that at times conventional meds and doctors need to be used until better, newer, more natural approaches can be show better results. I'm not a flower child.

I'm glad to see that you are open about alternative meds tho. I am kinda surprised. Don't read me wrong. I'm not being fresh or snippy, but i didn't think you were open about it.

I don't like the way Mercola's site hits the eye, looks too gimmicky or something, but he does provide good info Mr Simon, trust me.

And no I didn't consult with Mercola about my tx, but how come you didn't offer me your opinion? I saw the studies with short course, no need to post, but do you have any opinion or advice that you may want to share with me?

[mikesimon]

I don't have any advice for you. Mike

[mikesimon]

I never thought you really communicated anything of substance anyway - it was always just your weird sense of humor.

[Myown]

I never thought you really communicated anything of substance anyway - it was always just your weird sense of humor.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael, shut up jerk. Go kick your tire and pretend its me. It might make you feel better.


And btw, I don't need your opinion on stopping tx early. You would just point me to a study anyhow, bottom line guy that you are.

I'm glad I saw you for the real you. I can't be friends with someone like you. You have a bad temper. I'm glad I saw it just in time. I was going to give you my email so we could keep in touch now and then cuz I probably won't be on forum much after I stop tx, but forget it, no way would I want to keep in touch with you..... we would both be stressed out at all times if we continued to keep in touch when I leave. And you know that too.

No hard feelings, take care.
Don't hurt your foot when you kick the tire.

[mikesimon]

I looked for and hoped to find goodness in you but whenever I got passed your childish and oftentimes mean spirited sense of humor there wasn't anything of substance. You think you're funny with your incessant comments about money and motorcycles and lawers but I guess when you don't have anything of substance to say that's all you really have to work with.

[Myown]

oh pleeeeze, you can't take a joke and its all because most people have probably stood their distance from you for what ever reason and you have only had business type interaction with people due to your work schedule or something. For you to think that I would actually mean those comments NOT in a joking way and to hurt you is what puzzles me. But thats why we would never understand each other if we had a friendship and thats why I don't care what you think anymore and you can continue to believe what you want as far as me being mean spirited. Your opinion means nothing to me.

[mikesimon]

I can take a joke and I like jokes even when I am the object of them if they're good spirited - but that's all you ever have to offer - and they're not really jokes but rather just snide stupid comments about the same things over and over again. And what cinches it is, they're not funny. That sums it up from my perspective.
Mike

[Myown]

Shut up Michael.
The above is not a joke. Let me say it again since you said I say the same thing over and over again. shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up and shut up.

Have a great night.

And thanks for "YOUR perspective" on things. I'll pretend  I care what your perspective is. Here goes: "Oh thank you Michael for your perspective on things,, it means just so much to me."    

I hope that helped stroke your big male ego.  

[mikesimon]

Sounds like a very weak attempt at a Black Eyed Peas song but keep trying and maybe - just maybe - you'll improve enough that you'll be allowed to sing somewhere other than church - but I really doubt it. Church is where all is forgiven - even singing or is it screeching, with a pathetically bad voice way off key. It's so, so sad.  Mike

[Myown]

LOL!  Oh wait a minute,,, maybe I shouldn't laugh tho. Maybe I should tell you that you are mean spirited and all that, just like you tell me (as if it would bother me)      

So the guy actually does have a sense of humor more than once a week, hmnn thats interesting. So,, Mr. Organized,,, did you cross off "joke telling" from your "things to do list" for the week, so you don't tell an "extra joke" before its allotted time??.<< < now thats a joke Simon, don't get all bent out of shape.  

[mikesimon]

I have been at this site for 4 or 5 years and I have never ever written anything even remotely like that. I don't need to check the archives because that is not the way I think, speak or write ever - if you check you will see that is true. I posted that because I thought you would recognize how mean spirited that type of post is. But you surprised me and I really don't know what to say in response. In absolute honesty I didn't think it was funny in any way. I thought it was mean and childishly stupid and I had hoped that you'd find it so as well and reexamine your motivation for making snide comments about me. But, you actually thought it was funny and I am stunned and convinced beyond all doubt that we may as well live on different planets because we have diametrically opposed sensibilities and realities. Mike

[Myown]

Michael,
If you are continuing to post to me because you are waiting for an apology, ya know what, you're right, I should apologize because I hurt you(or insulted or whatever the word is that describes how you feel)., tho I didn't realize my words would do that. I was just kidding as I told you before, but in reality it doesn't matter if I was kidding, if you feel or felt hurt/disappointed, I apologize.

Yes I agree,we are from 2 differnet planets. I did think you were joking in the above post and did find it very funny to tell you the truth. If not for nothing else your post may help you understand  that my original post to you was in jest (not that I would ever joke with you again anyhow)

Dry humor is not for everyone and as you and as others have mentioned sometimes communication is lost on the net, so that doesn't help either.. But that problem is solved cause as I mentioned before, it is best that we don't post to one another anymore.  

I only have 3 more weeks of tx (hopefully) and I will be backing off alot from the forum until I completely disappear,so we wouldn't be posting anymore anyhow. Plus the warm weather is here and that will help wean me off the forum.

Sorry I upset you. I really am. I apologize again.

[mikesimon]

Thanks. I wish you good luck and a healthy and happy life sans HCV. Mike

[mikesimon]

Honestly, I was not looking for, nor was I expecting, an apology. But, it is reassuring to know that you weren't trying to be mean. I believe you and I do sincerely hope that you believe me. Again, good luck to you. Mike

[Myown]

Thanks, good luck to you too.