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144210_tn?1273092382
I meant the G20.
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220090_tn?1379170787
Do you think the world is waking up to the fact that the dollar is losing value at an alarming rate?

I do think so.  Our trading partners know that they need to move cautiously while our economies are so closely linked.  The dollar is the world's reserve currency, so it is not easy for any country to protect themselves.

It will be important to keep an eye out for countries to start trading without using dollars.  Iran would like nothing better than to price oil in some non-dollar denomination.  Let's hope they don't succeed.

I am closely watching the price of gold.  I am considering an investment in GLD, a gold ETF.

Scary times.  Let's all pray that Obama succeeds.  If he doesn't it will be another depression.
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476246_tn?1310999221
I watched a program on gold a few weeks ago, and they were showing how one of the main manufacturers shelves were almost empty. They were having difficulties keeping up with the demand, as all the wealthy people had already bought off x kilos to store in their vaults. It was a huge warehouse with racks all the way up to the ceiling. Quite impressive. They had massive blocks of gold, too. All kinds of sizes.

The weird thing is, my eldest sister has been talking about a monetary crisis for years on end and about investing in gold. I always thought she was just being paranoid, as she is not a person who is very knowledgeable about these things. How she has proven us all wrong.

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144210_tn?1273092382
Agreed. If I was in a position to invest, I would invest in value added type of businesses like Walmart or Costco. I cannot afford gold at these prices. As an average American, I am just trying to stock up on non perishable items before inflation goes through the roof. I really have a feeling something awful is almost upon us. I tell myself it is just the Riba, but I don't know.....
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220090_tn?1379170787
I am off the drugs now and I feel the same way.  I am very worried.  

You can buy GLD the gold ETF at $72 per share.  It tracks the price of the spot gold market.

Costco and Walmart are excellent places to be.

I worry more about the next generation than I do about myself.  Not that I am rich, but I have enough to get by now that I have sold my boat.  I only hope the next generation has the opportunities that  I had.
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144210_tn?1273092382
You sold your boat?!  Dude, you were livin the dream for the rest of us. Hope you were not forced to do it.

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476246_tn?1310999221
Or we might all have to go back to living a more simple life style. When I look around at all the stuff I accumulate and don't even use... even though I'm not a big shopper... and I give stuff away... Life could be actually much more simple... The problem is, that we always want more... human nature.

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220090_tn?1379170787
I had a choice, but I could not keep the boat and buy a house without going back to work.  If the economy recovers and people can get a decent return from their investments, I will buy another boat.  For the time being, I am enjoying the house and using OPB: other people's boats - LOL.

Marcia, yes we could all give up some of the things we do because of the marketing brainwash we get every day.
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476246_tn?1310999221
I am actually quite content at the moment... Spending is way down on tx. All I need is my mac, my cell phone, food and water. Pretty cheap living this way. No new clothes or shoes for the different seasons... No traveling. This tx has really saved me from spending money I would other wise have spent. Sometimes things don't make sense.

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619345_tn?1310345021
I think you hit the nail on the head "what do we really need" like the song
You can't Always get what you want but You always get what you need  My GI when telling him my financial woes Said "what do you really need"  It is all different for everyone One thing we can all agree on is Good Health  
The next year should be very interesting I have resigned to let Peace Of Mind be first and try to always come from a higher conciousness when making important decisions
I like a lot of things but don't need them.
Just hope the coming up generations do not rebel to what they have been handed down and that they have the chance to educate and work  

I guess the biggest worry for me is Crime with so many out of work and those to shortly be out of work when their savings runs out if they have not been able to find work  will they be lliving on the streets? In the states are the numbers of street people increasing?   , Availablity and affordability  Of Continuing Health Care especially for my Mom and her age group as it is   she cannot make it on her own without my help seniors will have to double up
Maybe communal living will come back in style  who knows what the future holds very interesting times ahead
  

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Avatar_f_tn
That's the one positive about tx. I've been too tired/sick to shop, spend, drive. It's made me realize, the money I was spending, on things I didn't need. My priorities will definitely change when I get out of this. I think differently now, part of it is from the drugs of course, but there is a certain amount of enlightenment, as well.
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412873_tn?1329178055
I have to thank you two gentlemen.  This thread has been so interesting and informative.  You should syndicate it like a Point CounterPoint type of discussion.  

So, thanks for presenting in such a way that we all come out of this better informed and still friends, lol!!

All---I agree: Tx sure saves money because who has energy to shop!  Even groceries-it it amazing how many meals you can come up with from just the cupboard.   But nothing beats a great pair of shoes =)

  
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476246_tn?1310999221
I hope it's not going to have the opposite effect. After having been deprived for so many months, once we get out there into the big world again... all those material things will be screaming at us: "Buy me, buy me!" And we'll go on the worst shopping spree ever recorded in history of mankind and blow all the doe we have just saved... LOL
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412873_tn?1329178055
That kinda sounds like fun----after all, anything to save the world economy...LOL!!!
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Avatar_f_tn
I do love shoes! If anything screams at me it'll be the shoes...and travel.  Uh oh, could be expensive, lol.
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476246_tn?1310999221
LOL.... it does sound like fun... shoes and travel it is....
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144210_tn?1273092382
I must admit Eric has more knowledge on the subject as far as investing goes for sure. My real passion lies in conservative ideology, but I am smart enough not to start that discussion while on Riba! LOL
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412873_tn?1329178055
All joking aside, it was a great discussion.  You both are such nice gentlemen.
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619345_tn?1310345021
I really learned alot from your back and forth political banter I only have CNN International here to follow news I suppose I could buy some Magazines but not much of a reader until now but just staying tuned to Health Readings and news
so it was entertaining and enlightening reading from both sides of the debate

Shopping Traveling Ladies   I have shopped for years and spent spent spent NOW I have a lot of things that don;t mean much shoes and clothes that take up too much rooms I have traveled  a lot never thought I would have that chance in my younger years but I do and will continue the Mexico traveling and May go back to Europe but Mexico by bus is for me   just love the adventure of driving or busing around I like to spend two or three days in each area and discover all the small villages very fun for me and I like to support the people that live there  
I have a furniture art galeria so I have stock stock stock even had to build a warehouse to hold it and two stores filled  
thing is what will happen to all the small businesses? Will they still be there when you are ready to spend some of the money you have been saving  I think it is great you are not affected by the world economy as so many are so Enjoy  Nothin Like new shoes
Hate to be a party pooper but I am all shopped out  
Travel I will never tire of nor buying Art  
Have fun sounds like you are already there
Don't know why but it almost feels like a Big Bomb Dropped on the Whole World  I feel that we will see many hard times ahead  I know I should be more upbeat but hmmm just feels like most of the smaller businesses and some of the large ones just won't be around anymore after to even shop at. But new ones will take their place and all will be well again
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476246_tn?1310999221
You should read further back than post 200.... then you'll understand what we're talking about. It's all a joke... Just read back and you'll understand.... We're making fun of ourselves.


Love,  Marcia
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439539_tn?1233469415
Did someone say,"shoes"?One year for Christmas we bought shoes all year long and wrapped each pair.The box was huge and when our oldest daughter opened the box, she was almost crying.We videotaped her when she said,"This is the very bestest Christmas ever "! We love shoes.
Tammy
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412873_tn?1329178055
We own a small business and I work for a family owned jewelry store,  so I certainly see on a daily basis what is happening to small businesses in this economic climate.  Very alarming.  

Yes, we were joking and I am sorry if I offended.  Tx'ing has had more of an effect on my spending habits than anythiing else right now tho.  Going back to what started this whole side bar.......who has the energy, lol!!

Amazing how much money you can save on groceries when all you want to eat is white spinach pizza, watermelon liccorice and mint choc chip ice cream.

Sorry to have make light of a serious situation =)

Izzy
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619345_tn?1310345021
no offense taken Issy  I am just a bit serious watch too much news and it is hard right now wish I could lighten up but I do not or did not mean to put a damper on your light heartedness and joking have fun what else can we do Hey if I had some money I would buy a new car saw a great one the toyota land rover sweet  Did get out yesterday should be in a better mood it was fun went to a cook off the 1st year restaurants from all over baja participated in a competition for the best Paella really fun and raised 10 grand for a good cause  I am just being old worry wart me  
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220090_tn?1379170787
You are a true gentleman.

I must be really out of it these days; I did not realize you were currently treating until your post about the riba.  You amaze me that you keep your cool even when we have strong disagreements.  I wish everyone had your self control and tolerance of opposing ideas.

I actually don't think supply siders are completely off base.  I just think a more modern version of it is needed and it has to include some demand side data.

Eric
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144210_tn?1273092382
I'm baaaaaaccckkk...... Eric, you just got to help me understand the opposing view. I mean, the preponderance of the evidence that supplyside works seems overwhelming. It brought us out of the Carter nightmare for one. Europe is now embracing it and has absolutely done a 180 in positive economic growth. I have tried to find a model where demandside worked but very little evidence. The best I could find was Ireland, who, after a dismal economic failure, cut taxes on the middle class, and yes things got a bit better, but then they cut capital gains and corporate taxes and WHAMO, outstanding growth. Which is why corporations are relocating there in record numbers. It just works, so why, when the rest of the world is moving to supplyside, Obama is taking us in the other direction? Look who he has tapped for his economic team. Jennifer Granholm who has run Michigan into the ground. Buffet who's profit for the 3rd quarter is down 77%, Robert Reich who is not a believer in supplyside. (please tell me why). This lineup tells me Obama is going to make the same mistakes Carter did!  What is the argument against supplyside. I honestly am just trying to get to the truth here...what am I missing?
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220090_tn?1379170787
My personal view is that you need to incorporate both sides of the equation to get a balanced economy.  Emphasizing one side over the other for too long distorts the economy.

A healthy economy requires an environment that allows business to grow without being overly taxed and regulated.  It also requires a healthy consumer of the goods and services.  I think the supply side folks are looking at one side and pay too much attention to taxes without looking at government spending and the health of the consumer.

We were so rich that mistakes took years before the impact was felt.  We are not so rich any longer having squandered our wealth on too many useless projects while we neglected investing completely.  

I think that the Reagan and Kennedy tax cuts worked so well because we were over taxing business and high net worth investors.  Bush cut the same taxes too much and ran up a lot of debt because he didn't cut spending.  He did cut investing though and that compounded the problem.

I think the main argument against supply side is it is a theory that deals with  a part of the economy, but not all of it.  Now we have a major problem on the demand side and that is very difficult to fix.  

I don't think the price of Buffet's stock has anything to do with his talents.  He is a long term investor and long term investments move up and down with the market during movements as severe as we are now experiencing.

I don't really think Obama is taking us in the wrong direction.  He is looking for something to replace consumer spending to prevent a depression/deflation that is very hard to stop once it starts.  Somehow, we have to find a temporary replacement of consumer spending and government sponsored infrastructure is being considered.

If the government sponsored infrastructure projects focus on things we really need, then it will help.  If it ends up being make work or just pork then we are in big trouble.  McCain proposed only supply side fixes,but there is no problem in the supply side: the ports on the east coast are filling up with imported cars that no one will buy.  The same for retail inventory and computers.

I guess an analogy would be a car whose transmission fails and one mechanic proposes a fix to the clutch and the other proposes increasing the horsepower.  Carter tried to fix the clutch when the engine was failing.  McCain wanted to increase the horsepower  when the transmission has failed and it remains to be seen what Obama will do.  I only know what he says, but he will have to fight the corruption in the house and senate to make anything good happen.  Since much of that is in his own party, I am not sure if he will succeed, but I am hopeful that he will.

The economic conditions of today are very much like that of 1929.  So far, all the attempts to fix the problem have failed.  The action of this week frightened me for the first time since the crisis started.

If Citibank collapses and the market breaks through the 2002 low (Dow 7250), we could see a market at 5000 or less. Then we could see a depression.
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144210_tn?1273092382
Seems like a reasonable compromise. If Obama would just call a press conference and announce no new taxes, or a cut on capital gains, or will make Bush tax cuts permanemt, then I think the market would rally. His silence is disturbing and adding to the anxiety I think. I agree that if he stays quiet, we will definately go to 5000 and worse and a depression is immenent.
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476246_tn?1310999221
I wonder how much he can do and announce future decisions at this moment , not being the president, yet. As he has mentioned on several occasions, there can only be one president at a time. I am not sure how delicate this matter is, but I'm sure it is. I could imagine that he is lining up all his ducks and we will hear something in January.

Just a thought....
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144210_tn?1273092382
You could be right, but we don't have until January. I have completely changed my lifestyle. I have been poor in the past and know I will be ok, but this is a different culture today. Anarchy is a real possibilty, in fact I think many would welcome anarchy.
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476246_tn?1310999221
I definitely agree with you. The economic crisis is a huge problem, which needs to be solved yesterday. I really hope it will not get to anarchy, that would be disastrous.
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206807_tn?1331939784
I think that if he would just address the nation it will help calm everyone down. Of course now that the election is over he would have to choose his words wisely or it could cause more damage than good. The Campaign Rhetoric and the unrealistic promises will no longer work. The Honeymoon with the Media is just about over and he will soon be the hunted.
He would need to propose a realistic plan (even if it is not a complete plan) and be truthful to the American People. Being kept in the dark is hurting us.
On another note I am impressed with the way the Senators are handling the Auto. Industry. Telling them they need to sell their Corporate Jets and when they come back with a plan, we’ll talk. This is sending a strong message to the American People and is helping to gain our trust.
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Avatar_f_tn
Wow how this thread has grown.  I have lots of reading to do.  

I am just loving politics these days with my man as the president elect!  So exciting for a change.  The team is shaping up nice too.
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220090_tn?1379170787
His choice of treasury secretary is excellent.  I expect that he will have more of the financial team in place by Monday and will have another press conference.

The markets reacted very positively to the announcement today.  Obama is certainly gathering very smart people.
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206807_tn?1331939784
I am Greatly Disappointed in Obama’s choice of Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton.
I am sure there are a lot of Dems dancing in the street and I hope there are a lot of Dems saying whoa, what is going on here.
He chose Biden for a running mate, even though Biden said, “Obama was not ready to be president.” With Biden’s history of shooting off at the mouth, to me it wasn’t that big of a deal.
But Hillary is a whole different scenario.
It wasn’t but just a few months ago they were accusing each other of everything just short of being Rose Mary’s Baby. It was so bad; the Republican’s didn’t have to get into the “Mud Slinging” because they were doing it for them.
For the Dem’s that are not dancing in the street, they have to be wandering if Obama and Clinton’s campaigns were based on Lies and Deceit. In just a few months time, it has changed from Rose Mary’s Baby to the Heavens opening up and lowering each other down.
Sorry I am not buying it.
Also what kind of message is he sending to the 48% of the American people that did not vote for him. Especially the one’s like myself who decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.
He is a Liar and full of deceit, politics as usual. Apparently, there Is No Change. If it is, I am afraid it is not the Change 52% anticipated.


I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
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Avatar_m_tn
Very well said, Glass.  I'm an Independent.  However employed in a fairly large industry for these parts.... and in an extremely politically charged are, we are hearing all of your sentiments above from both the Democrats and Republicans ... most of the Republicans already had a sense of the deceit from the get-go.  I'm still being hopeful and 'wanting' to give the president-elect an opportunity to accomplish some of the great things he's promised.  Yep, it appears the same old - same old.  And, I believed we were in grave trouble with Bush.
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Avatar_m_tn
The markets reacted very positively to the announcement today
----------------------------------------

Yeah, but as we all know one day does not make it a rebound, what will next week bring??? And if the market crashes more (god forbid) will that then mean their NOT reacting positive to the news? Right now i feel only obama can really calm this market, he really needs to step forward.
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Avatar_m_tn
I am not sure you're seeing this right. People speculated that Rahm Emanuel was a move back to the same old politics. I hope that I'm right but I see Rahm as an attempt to control, to some extent, Pelosi and Reid. I see his overture to McCain the same way. I see Obama as trying to free himself from hard line democrats. Clinton is another attempt. Keeping Lieberman as chair of Homeland Security likewise. I think Obama is politically astute. I think and I hope that he doesn't fit the traditional mold that triggers a perspective like yours. Perhaps he really is as inclusive and conciliatory as he portrayed himself to be and if that's true then indeed he will be a very welcome change.
Mike
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250084_tn?1303311035
Did someone says SHOES!!??

I HATE shopping, never been a shopper! Hate buying needless cr*p (expensive or not) that I don't need and clutter but SHOES are a whole other thing here , LOL. Love shoes :)

Seriously tho.....I love reading these, keeps me up on all the news I miss, info. I don't know and I've always come away from these threads with new views, information whether I agree or disagree. I just stay out of areas I don't feel to qualified to reply.
Yes, they are gentlemen and love the civil 'discussions' here.

Izzy.........so you have a 'money I saved on tx' shopping fund going for AFTER tx ;) ??
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206807_tn?1331939784
You must not have much to do today ether. I am waiting for the LSU/Ole Miss. Kick off. About another hour and a half.

I agree with most of what you said but not all. I do consider Hillary a hard line Democrat. But, her being a hard line Democrat is not as much the issue as the position and viscous attacks they made at each other. You may have missed the point I was trying to make.

“For the Dem’s that are not dancing in the street, they have to be wandering if Obama and Clinton’s campaigns were based on Lies and Deceit. In just a few months time, it has changed from Rose Mary’s Baby to the Heavens opening up and lowering each other down.
Sorry I am not buying it.”

If it wasn’t for this I wouldn’t have as much of problem with her as Secretary of State but I would still have a problem with her. When Bush was speaking after 911 the cameras were on her when she did her Eye Roll. For this alone she lost my respect and nothing can be done to gain it back.
Of all days to act like a B!tch she chose this one. Regardless of what she felt about Bush
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Avatar_m_tn
I was more surprised that Obama exerted pressure to keep Lieberman on Homeland security. This guy campaigned for McCain and addressed the republican convention. I think Obama is smart. Clinton? She has to carry his policy and if she doesn't she'll be gone. I think she's smart enough and has the experience for the job and the celebrity too which we now know is crucial. And I believe she'll get right in line.
BTW, She lost my respect with the sniper fire in Bosnia.
I think I understood your point but I don't agree with you.
Mike
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206807_tn?1331939784
I forgot about the sniper fire. That one “curdled my milk”.
I think we should just call it a stalemate and agree to disagree. Hopefully I am wrong.
On another note,  Ole Miss.31 LSU13. Hopefully, we get invited to the Dung Bowl.
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388154_tn?1306365291
This is what you have elected and always will elect since thats the only ones running my firm believe. (Same in all democratic countries).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lof1HI6gpfw
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Avatar_m_tn
Along with the current appointments, this could be the news the market is looking for.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081123/pl_nm/us_usa_obama_taxes
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314554_tn?1337457719
Thanksgiving Humor

Not one her better moments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-kjM1asH-8&feature=related
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144210_tn?1273092382
7.4 Trillion in new debt!!  We are toast. Got fooled again....
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Avatar_f_tn
I did not vote for Obama, but I agree with Mike Simmons that so far Obama made very thoughtful choices.  Now, I hope, he will not increase corporate taxes --- because this is a reliable recipe to move remaining jobs oversea.

Be well
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Avatar_m_tn
The American sickness, it just seems strange that in the last four months the world became un raveled and it started right here in the usa. But it does seem justified as Bush will leave his legacy and imprint on how to not lead a government. All the players win and the masses lose. Just like the Iraq war, lies, lies, and cover ups just as we now have this tangled web of deception. I can’t wait for the continuation of Mike Mores trilogy of this president’s legacy. 8 years of an ill fated war costing billions and lives and we are no closer to nothing, 8 years of voodoo economics and it now seems there’s only one place to shove the last needle, get ready, and grin.

It would have been better for the financial institutions to go back 5 years on residential mortgages where all these variable rate loans started to ratchet up and convert them to fixed loans at the introductory rate. This would have taken care of the massive defaults we are now seeing.

jasper
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220090_tn?1379170787
The cost of these bailouts has surpassed the cost of World War II (in inflation adjusted dollars) and is now the most expensive action ever taken by our government!  Our country will take decades to recover from this.

Converting the mortgages to fixed rate would  not solve the problem, since the value of the house is less than the value of the mortgage in the case of most foreclosures.  Mortgages are "non-recourse" loans: the borrower is protected from the bank going after any assets other than the house.  This makes it easy to just walk away when the value of the house is less than the mortgage (that is a good thing).

I am sure we will never see non-recourse loans again.

When the full disaster of the Bush administration is finally documented, I think he will go down in history as the worst president in the history of the country.   No one else is in his league.
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206807_tn?1331939784
It does look like Bush is going to bump Carter out of the worst president position.
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