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Avatar universal

What about Herbals?

In 1993, I was rejected by the Blood Bank for donations due to Hep C antibodies.  I discussed this with my doctor who said that meant I had been exposed to Hep C but my body was taking care of it (dunce).  I told every doctor I ever saw about this but only one doctor did a liver panel workup that showed my liver functions as normal - so I was put on Lipitor for high cholesterol.  Finally, this year I got the proper blood work done by my GI doctor and it showed that I do have Hep C. My VL is 6,000,000.  I am genotype 2.  I will get the rest of the info on my first office visit on Wed. (9/3) to discuss treatment.

I may have had this for at least 25 years but at least 15.  Everything I've read, including posts here, tell the nightmare of the side effects of interferon treatments (which, I've also read, don't work for genotypes 1x)  

I am leaning towards the herbal approach of milk thistle, licorace, dandylion root, Liv.52, and NAC (to name some)  I can't take time off work since I am the breadwinner in the family.

The posts here about the medical approach don't look real promising (side effects, time off work, 24/48/56 weeks of treatment, relapse, etc.)  Has anyone tried the herbal approach?  I'm told that there are NO side effects.  Reading the posts here scare me even more about the medical approach.  

I am trying to gather as much info as possible prior to my Wednesday appointment.  Any input would be greatly appreciated.
26 Responses
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372366 tn?1284403873
wHERE IS THE SEEDS OR CLIPPINGS, tIME TO PUT UP OR YA KNOW.....


hARRY
Helpful - 0
372366 tn?1284403873
  I can't say one way or the other till I try your approach. I live in the country with over 100 acres of farm land and would love to have seeds from your vegetables and friut trees, if seeds are not available clippings would be ok and I'll make clones. Please send me a private letter to arrange for these things thankyou. I agree good food good health.

Harry
Helpful - 0
338734 tn?1377160168
That is a load of studies you posted links to. It will take me a while to go through them. I have a day job too!

I think there have been enough warnings here already. I'll just read the studies for what they're worth. Best of luck!
Helpful - 0
493068 tn?1224765315
I wish you all the luck in the world but I will share that I went from 0 fibrosis to stage 2 in 6 months. You must have a biopsy to know the damage to the liver. Also my physician said you can't rely on liver enzymes to get a correct indication of what is going on in your liver. A biopsy is the only test that is accurate.
Blessings,
proud48
Helpful - 0
408795 tn?1324935675
The herbal idea just don't sit well with me and I'll tell you why.  Many herbs are diuretics and some of them, are not good to take.  Why not just go see a doctor and ask for a diuretic, you will most likely get a potassium supplement as well.  That's my other point, some herbs are actually dangerous to take.  Could it be b/c they are a diuretics and take electrolytes and potassium from your body at levels unknown?  A diuretic could also cost less.  God Bless
Helpful - 0
315996 tn?1429054229
Herbs *might* lower your liver panels and your viral load.
Same with nutrition and supplements. I'm with you, if you can afford it and don't go overboard and keep an eye out for the bad herbs.
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
Thank you so much for the concern.  

I am covering all my bases.  I am seeing a certified herbalist, I am requesting a biopsy, I am having bi-monthly blood work done to check my liver functions.  My GI knows my GP.  My GP, GI and herbalist all that I am currently in psych therapy. My therapist is aware of my condition.  I'm not a maveric who thinks I can figure this out all by myself.  I know I need professional help to manage this.  But since the GI said to wait a year, why not try an alternive approach?  Who knows, it may work.  It may not.  I'm willing to spend the $$$ to find out.  If I can avoid interferon treatment, it's worth it!
Helpful - 0
179856 tn?1333547362
It's your time & money but don't tell all of the older members in here that you haven't been fully and adequately warned.

Taking a SUPPLEMENT for your liver health is one thing but thinking it might actually help the hep / fibrosis / cirrhosis is another.

Take a multivitamin without iron and call it a day.

And if you feel compelled to have to try herbals - make SURE you are having extremely regular CBCs because we have seen peoples enzymes levels TRIPLE into the 600s+ before - and that is an amazing amount of extra liver cell death to be done to someone by something that is "safe and helpful" when your liver enzymes should be like one digit.  

Good luck with all this. Be careful.
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
Just an added note: I'm not proclaiming that herbs will cure HCV - but the information that I've read shows that they can slow, control, even reverse some of the bad stuff this disease causes.   I do believe the liver is the only organ in the body that can actually regenerate and repair itself with proper attention.
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
Here are some of the links that I have found.  Some are trials, some are studies, some are reports, some are on-going research.

4 studies of antioxidants and Hep C
http://www.hepatitis-central.com/mt/archives/2007/02/why_antioxidant.html

55 trials of Liv.52  
http://www.liv52.com/hepatitis-liv-52.html

Grapefruit compound study research paper
http://www.physorg.com/news121351832.html

Milk Thistle along with Interferon treatment
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/117870830/abstract

Scroll down to “Nutritional and phytopharmaceutical therapy for hepatitis”
http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/622

This one addresses the use of Colloidal Silver and HIV
Last paragraph notes CS can attack other virus micro-organisms (but doesn’t address HCV specifically - so I really don't know if it's pertinent)
http://www.physorg.com/news.php?newsid=7264

isoliquiritigenin and glycycoumarin from the herb Glycyrrhizae radix
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120840118/abstract

Sho-Saiko-To Japanese Herbal
http://www.shosaikoto.com/clinicaltrials.html

I've seen more, but don't remember where I saw them at.  I will continue to search the web for this information and post it as I find it.

I think I may ask the doctor for a biopsy - even though I don't want to go through that.  From what I'm reading here and other places, a biopsy is the only way to really determine the current extent of liver damage.  (cringe)

However, due to my current depression issues, my GI won't start treatment on me now, anyway.

I do have an appointment with a certified herbalist.  She and I will come up with a safe herbal regiment.  She will tell me which herbals and what quantities to take.

One day at a time...
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338734 tn?1377160168
Sorry to hear about your mother. I lost my father shortly after I was diagnosed. My sympathy to you.

You said - "You can't overdose on these herbs and they have no drug interactions (I've done my homework on this).  Most have been put through clinical trials with amazing results."

Can you post a link to the report for one of these trials? I would be interested to see if it is a real scientific study. I haven't done a lot of study on this, so I would like to see the actual data from the studies.
Helpful - 0
412873 tn?1329174455
So true, nygirl!  

You are not going to know the condition of your liver until you get a biopsy.  Hopefully it will show little to no damage and you can do the herbal thing while you wait for new drugs coming out in the next few years.

Or you will find that waiting is not a good option and treat now.  

I am a geno 1a.  Stage 1-just did shot #6 today.  So far my sides are ok.  Yeah, I know there will be harder days---but I also know I am well on my way to being cured.

To quote one of the post tx'ers here:  If it were that hard, none of us could do it.

But so many of us have.  And so many of us are SVR.  

Whichever path you take, there are people here in the same boat so you will find lots of support.  Please keep us posted.  

Best of luck

Isobella

Helpful - 0
179856 tn?1333547362
By the way - ultrasound can only tell you if you have tumors and such - it CANNOT tell you the level of your fibrosis.  If you've had this disease as many years as you think you have - before you waste time on fake cures you just might want to make sure that you DO have the time left to do so?

It would be a crime to be at stage 3/4 and waste that last 1/4 before cirrhosis and never be able to get it back.

End stage liver disease is NOT pretty and makes SOC look like a walk in the park on a beautiful summers day.
Helpful - 0
179856 tn?1333547362
Juiceomatic oh Lord back again by popular demand to demean himself more than normal.
HIS INFORMATION HAS NO BASIS IN REALITY PLEASE IGNORE IT. It's not that we are not open minded but Newbie you are going to be reading nice poetry in motion with absolutely NO substance or truth behind it. MIght as well send me all your money at least I will put it to good use.

Newbie - I had two separate strains of genotype 1.  1A and also 1B

Current SOC kicked them both in the head. All the juice and herbs in the world would do nothing (and *warning* herbs can actually RAISE the liver enzyme level thus meaning more cell death to you quite drastically).  Just reducing your viral load means absolutely nothing at all. You STILL have the disease and are still generating liver damage. So what if the number is 6,000,000 or 600,000 - a one log drop is a drop in the bucket and means absolutely nada zippo zilch to you.

I had zero symptoms and have had this more than 20 years. I was stage 3 by the time I was diagnosed. I treated for 72 weeks and ahve been CURED for over 18 months.

Was treatment hard? Sometimes it was indeed quite hard.............but a LOT less hard than end stage liver disease.

That is an important little fact to remember.

Good luck.

PS Most GPs know NOTHING about hepc at all - please make sure you have a good HEPTOLOGIST to deal with the hep disease.
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
Thanks for the info.

MittJChin, I will take a look at your journal.  I am very opened minded and trying to gather as much info as possible.  

Walrus, I understand that it is the depression itself that doesn't mix with the interferon.  My Mom passed quickly and unexpected in late June and I'm working through the grieving process with the help of a psychiatrist and a psycologist.  She was a big part of my life.  All of the doctors know about each other.

I told my GI about trying the herbal route.  I told him I was going to take milk thistle for the silybin along with Liv.52 and NAC.  All target the liver.  He said he didn't think it would hurt to give it a try.  I have an appointment with a certified herbalist to verify and possibly modify my herbal approach.  You can't overdose on these herbs and they have no drug interactions (I've done my homework on this).  Most have been put through clinical trials with amazing results.

My GP is going to do blood work for me every 2 months so I can plot my progress.  Since the GI doctor wants to wait at least a year to start treatment, this gives me the opportunity to try an alternative approach to interferon.  I already take lots of other suppliments (vitamin C, E, B, garlic, cranberry extract, omega-3 fish oil, and others), so adding a couple more is no big deal.

I've read a lot that people usually die WITH Hep C, not from it.  I have read that  interferon can remove the virus from the body curing the patient.  It has been stated here that interferon treatment is the only way to cure Hep C.   Well, if I can keep it from damaging my body then I don't mind if I am not cured - as long as I stay healthy and can continue to live my life without the disease interrupting things.  :)

I'll stop back and let you all know how it's going.
Helpful - 0
338734 tn?1377160168
By the way - it's not the mixing of anti-depressants and interferon that is not good, it is that depression and interferon can be a bad combination. Interferon can worsen existing depression. If you have suicidal thoughts, that is a real danger sign to the doc for putting you on TX. I think he would want to be sure that your depression was well controlled with the meds you are taking. He should get a shrink to at least cover his behind on the decision to TX a patient with depression. Depression is a leading reason for discontinuation of interferon treatment. My doc said "people have killed themselves on treatment".

Regards,
Walrus
Helpful - 0
338734 tn?1377160168
Oh no, not again with Juice-O-Matic-Matt! Do not believe it.

It is nice that you will have ultrasound and no needle for biopsy. The ultrasound will not reveal histologic disease the way biopsy can. Often the biopsy is skipped for geno 2 patients because there is an assumption that they should treat whether or not damage has started. This because of the short TX period and the good likelihood of SVR.

If you are going to "watch and wait" I would caution you to watch carefully your disease progression. A biopsy might be an important part of the "watch", or in knowing more certainly the disease stage you currently have. I went from stage 1 to stage 4 between biopsies during the "watch and wait" period.

The hell of six months of treatment pales in comparison to finding yourself with end stage liver disease with no possibility for treatment and the only hope is for transplant before death. And then you must TX with the new liver: much harder and less successful as a transplant patient with a supressed immune system. I am not telling you not to wait, just to be careful in monitoring your disease progression. Don't go 5 years between biopsies like I did.

Can't say I would recommend the herbal treatments in any case. Make sure your GI is aware and consenting to anything you are taking. None of the remedies out there show any promise of treating HCV, and some are toxic, especially to HCV patients.

Good luck!
Helpful - 0
206807 tn?1331936184
Mattchin’s claims are dangerously misleading and gives people false hope. Please disregard them. For now Inteferon and Riba. is the only proven treatment.
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476246 tn?1418870914
omg, this is gonna turn into another ono thread. i can't believe it....
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
I just got back from my GI doctor.  He said since I am genotype 2 that there is an 80% success cure rate, shorter treatment time, and less side effects.  He ordered more blood work (full liver panel) and an ultrasound (yea!  no needles)  He said that since I am currently on anti-depressants, this would not be a good time to start treatment due to suicidal reactions when mixing interferon and anti-depressants.  He wants me to hold off for a year and see if they come up any new/better treatments.  He does not feel that I am in iminant danger.

I am showing no symptoms and a palpitation of my liver didn't turn up anything that concerned the doctor.  So...  I am going to go the herbal route for 6 months and have my blood work done again to see if it has improved my numbers.

I see this as very good news.  I'll let you know what happens.
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
Thanks Walrus.  Like I said before, I'm new and scared - really scared.

The doctors who ignored my antibody info were all GPs - at least 6 since 1993.  It wasn't until I hit 50 and had to go for that lovely baseline that someone heard me.  My GI doctor told me that he treats Hep patients and immediately ordered me a set of blood work.  That's what got this ball rolling.  Today's the day I get all of the info on my blood test results.  

I just found out yesterday that my hubby's brother has just completed a 6 month treatment for Hep C.  He said that he was so sick that he couldn't even get out of bed.  He got really upset when his hair started to fall out (he's an old hippy with really long, beautiful hair)  His hemoglobin numbers dropped dramatically and the doctor perscribed yet another injection that he had to give himself 3 times a week.  He said that he was taking a total of 6 shots a week.  (I'm not sure what all they were, but at least one was interferon)  He also took Ribavirin daily.  After his 6 months of hell, his blood work showed no sign of the disease.  He's cured - or so he hopes.  The doctor wants him to come back in 6 months for another workup.  He said if he has a relapse, he's not going to redo the treatment due to the horrible side effects.  He said that he preferred quality over quantity.  His choice...

Like you said, Walrus, I need to find out where I'm at with this killer and determine a course of treatment that I can live with.  If the doctor says to wait for treatment, I'm still going to take the herbals.  If he says to start treatment immediately, well, then I have some hard thinking to do.  I believe an ultrasound and/or biopsy will come first, though.

I've given support (both emotional and physical) to a number of friends and family who have gone through chemo for cancer - some survived, some didn't.  It tore me up to watch my loved ones go through such an ordeal and it scares the **** out of me to think that I may have to be in a similar position.

Thanks for your advise.  I really appreciate your input.
Helpful - 0
338734 tn?1377160168
I can only wonder what kind of doctor would see that a patient has tested positive to hep c antibodies and would not then follow with a test to determine if there is an active infection.  Was this a veterinary doctor? Anyway, you should be seeing a different doctor, preferably a hepatologist or GI doctor.

Viral load will fluctuate pretty widely on its own. Remember, it it logarythmic, which means that the differences that are significant are drops of an order of magnitude from the original. Your VL is 6,000,000. If you drop to 600,000, that would be a 1-Log drop. Each Log, or "order of magnitude" is represented by a multiple of 10 (or 1/10th).

Nothing has been clinically shown to eradicate the virus except interferon. Herbal remedies may or may not be healthy for the liver, but they will not result in viral eradication. That means you will still have the virus and it will continue to damage your liver.

On the plus side, you are a genotype 2, so treatment could be only 6 months with a very likely successful outcome with standard treatment.

On the other hand, it might be advisable to wait and see how the disease progresses before deciding to treat. Often the disease progresses slowly. During the time you wait, newer, safer and more effective treatments may become available. It is true that some people live with HCV for a long time and die of something else. For others, this is not the case (I personally testify to this).

I wouldn't rely on herbal remedies as an alternative to treatment if that is what you need. This disease does kill people.

Best luck
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
Thank you so much for the acronym list.  I feel like I've been swimming in alphabet soup while trying to do research on this!  I believe the GI doctor is probably going to order a biopsy - which I have no problem doing.  I have read some very good reports on herbals (much more than I've read here and other sites about the medical treatments)  

I figure I've had HCV for at least 15 years without symptoms so 6 months of an alternative treatment (herbals) and then a retest of my numbers (which I don't even know what all they are except my viral load - I'm really new to this and should learn on Wed).  If no change or if things get worse, then I would consider injecting myself with poison.  I just can't see debilitating myself for months on a treatment that 'may' work.

I'll report back on any outcome - positive or negative - to an alternative approach.  
Helpful - 0
276730 tn?1327962946
HCV Acronyms
HCV Hepatitis C Virus
AHC Acute Hepatitis C
CHC Chronic Hepatitis C
G or GT Genotype
RNA RiboNucleic Acid
DNA DeoxyriboNucleic Acid
Tx Treatment, Therapy (can also mean Transplant)
Bx Biopsy
Dx Diagnosis
Sx Symptoms, Side Effects
Rx Prescription
Hx History
SOC Standard of Care
ITT Intent to Treat
RVR Rapid Virological Response (4 Week PCR - UND
EVR Early Virological Response (12 Week PCR - >2 Log Drop)
EVC Early Virological Clearance (Aviremic - HCV RNA Negative at Week 12)
PVR Partial Virological Response (Viremic Response – >2 Log Drop still HCV+ at Week 12
EOT End of Treatment
SVR Sustained Virological Response (UND 6 Months post EOT)
VR Virological Response
PCR Polymerase Chain Reaction
RT-PCR Reverse Transcription-Polymerase Chain Reaction.
TMA Transcription Mediated Amplification
VL Viral Load
HVL High Viral Load (≥400,000 IU) (≥600,000 IU) (≥800,000 IU)
LVL Low Viral Load (<400,000 IU)
UND Undetectable Viral Load
IU International Unit 1 IU = 2.5 VL Copies apx
BMI Body Mass Index
WHR Waist to Hip Ratio

Drug Acronyms
IFN Interferon (Alpha 2a / Alpha 2b)
NPIA Non-Pegylated Interferon Alpha
PegIFN Pegylated Interferon (Alpha 2a / Alpha 2b)
CIFN Consensus Interferon (Infergen/alphacon)
RBV Ribavirin
RVN Ribavirin
Riba Ribavirin
WBR Weight Based Ribavirin
WBD Weight Based Dose
FDR Fixed Dose Ribavirin
LDR Low Dose Ribavirin (Same as FDR)
EPO Erythropoietin Epoetin alfa (Epogen/Procrit), Darbepoetin alfa (Aranesp)
Neup Neupogen
TIW Three Injections Weekly (Tri Weekly, Three Times a Week, Thrice Weekly)
SC Subcutaneous (Beneath or Under the skin)
QW Once a Week (from Latin quaque

Blood Test Acronyms
LFT Liver Function Test
ALT Alanine Aminotransferase
AST Aspartate Aminotransferase
SGPT ALT was called Serum Glutamic Pyruvic Transaminase.
SGOT AST was called Serum Glutamic Oxaloacetic Transaminase.
ALP Alkaline Phosphatase (Alk Phos)
AFP Alpha-FetoProtein
GGT Gamma Glutamyl Transpeptidase
LDH Lactate Dehydrogenase
FBC Full Blood Count
CBC Complete Blood Count (almost the same as FBC)
RCC Red Cell Count
HGB Hemoglobin
WCC White Cell Count
MCV Mean Corpuscular Volume
TSH Thyroid stimulating hormone (Also called: Thyrotropin)
ULN Upper Limit of Normal
LLN Lower Limit of Normal

Cholesterol
VLDL Very Low Density Lipoproteins
LDL Low Density Lipoproteins
HDL High Density Lipoproteins

CS


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