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Frequent Oral HSV 2 Outbreak
I am posting this because I have tested positive for HSV2 Antibodies, and negative for HSV1. I have had oral outbreaks for about 6-7 months with rarely any time in between clear. It seems they come weekly, almost every few days. I rarely go more than a week without a symptom. I hardly ever feel any tingling, or pain. They just appear as small red pimple like objects on various places on my upper lip. I have tried using Valtrex for symptomatic treatment, as well as supplementing with Lysine, and recently started taking Vitamin C, Olive Leaf Extract, Multivitamin, and now added Oreganol P 73 and a small dose of aspirin daily.I have also quit taking Whey Protein Shakes since they are high in arginine, used to take them because of the frequent working out. Since I added these supplements I have seen some improvement, but I still get the small red bumps it seems every few days, when one goes away another appears. They aren't in clusters, but not much space between either. I have also made an effort to avoid high arginine foods, nuts, oats, etc. I only drink water and milk. I exercise 4-5 days a week.. My question is, I am basically looking for any feedback, I read that Oral HSV 2 is rare, especially frequent re-occuring outbreaks. I have tried everything I can to get them under control, they seem to be diminishing a little bit, but the frequency that they come is still alarming.. Like I said it seems like I never go more than a week without a new bump appearing.. My immune system I wouldn't think to be the problem, I hardly ever get sick, I am in great physical shape. Any idea why I am experiencing such frequent outbreaks, and any tips to get this thing under control and at least minimize the outbreaks would be greatly appreciated..
Makes absolute sense :) Glad you are finally getting answers and better treatment for this!
Let me know when I can say " I told you so" ;)
grace
Let me know when I can say " I told you so" ;)
grace
Hey Grace,
I finally got a appointment with the doctor and he subscribed Amoxicylin and Bactroban. I used these 2 for about a week and my condition improved but was not totally eliminated. I had to stop using the Bactroban because it was making my skin above my lip very irritated and was causing a rash of its own, it also made it to wear the hear right above my lip quit growing in, probably due to clogging the pores. My condition did get better than it has been in a long time with this treatment, but it is still bothering me now. I went to a dermatologist and he diagnosed it as perioral dermatitis and put me on Doxycycline Hydrate and also metronidazole ointment. I am supposed to take the Doxycycline for a month and possibly up to two months. The only thing that I am confused about this is that I was under the impression POD occured around the mouth but not necessarily on it. For the most part my issues occur right outside the lip border, but some appear to be very close to the lip. I am going to get another culture done to make sure it's not HSV. He said it wasn't and what I have been experiencing looks mainly like pimples, near the lip typically in both corners above my lip, and occasionally they occur towards the middle too. Never in clusters, just one pimple at a time, in different spots, Sometimes there is more than one, but they are in different spots (i.e. on the right corner above my lip, and on the left). Do you think his diagnosis makes sense?
I finally got a appointment with the doctor and he subscribed Amoxicylin and Bactroban. I used these 2 for about a week and my condition improved but was not totally eliminated. I had to stop using the Bactroban because it was making my skin above my lip very irritated and was causing a rash of its own, it also made it to wear the hear right above my lip quit growing in, probably due to clogging the pores. My condition did get better than it has been in a long time with this treatment, but it is still bothering me now. I went to a dermatologist and he diagnosed it as perioral dermatitis and put me on Doxycycline Hydrate and also metronidazole ointment. I am supposed to take the Doxycycline for a month and possibly up to two months. The only thing that I am confused about this is that I was under the impression POD occured around the mouth but not necessarily on it. For the most part my issues occur right outside the lip border, but some appear to be very close to the lip. I am going to get another culture done to make sure it's not HSV. He said it wasn't and what I have been experiencing looks mainly like pimples, near the lip typically in both corners above my lip, and occasionally they occur towards the middle too. Never in clusters, just one pimple at a time, in different spots, Sometimes there is more than one, but they are in different spots (i.e. on the right corner above my lip, and on the left). Do you think his diagnosis makes sense?
sounds like you are well prepared to go to this appointment :) Let 'em have it!!!!
grace
grace
Well grace you have been extremely helpful, I made an appointment to meet with the doctor, hopefully I will have a lesion at that time, which is pretty much guaranteed since I have one present somewhere on my lips, or near them at all times. I have not went more than a week I'd say in the last 6 months without one being present somewhere. I am going to ask them to take PCR swap of one since like I said they don't fill with fluid, erupt, and crust as I read they typically should. They just come, and linger, and eventually fade.
I am hoping with the information you have given me I can get them to take me seriously and not just assume it's HSV based off a positive HSV 2 blood test, and the presence of lesions in the mouth area. I am going to explain to them that the blood test just means I have been exposed to it, I've been sexually active for near 7 yrs now so I could of had it happen in the past. Hopefully they will not be still stuck that the blood test means it is conclusive of my current situation. Any other information you can give me to use to get the most accurate and throughough diagnoses when I go would be appreciated. I still have a few days before the appointment, and I have stopped taking the valtrex, so it doesn't taint the culture. Also I am going to ask them for the numbers from my blood test, since you said those would be helpful.
I am hoping with the information you have given me I can get them to take me seriously and not just assume it's HSV based off a positive HSV 2 blood test, and the presence of lesions in the mouth area. I am going to explain to them that the blood test just means I have been exposed to it, I've been sexually active for near 7 yrs now so I could of had it happen in the past. Hopefully they will not be still stuck that the blood test means it is conclusive of my current situation. Any other information you can give me to use to get the most accurate and throughough diagnoses when I go would be appreciated. I still have a few days before the appointment, and I have stopped taking the valtrex, so it doesn't taint the culture. Also I am going to ask them for the numbers from my blood test, since you said those would be helpful.
The herbals aren't doing much anyways - none of them showed any real effectiveness in humans - just in the test tube.
You can ( and should ) still take the multivitamin.
grace
You can ( and should ) still take the multivitamin.
grace
I hate to bother you again, but to give myself the best chance to have an accurate culture, how long should I avoid any medication? Does that include multivitamin, and other herbs?
Alright, well how long do you suggest staying off of this medication and any supplements in order to get an accurate culture at the next appearance of a lesion?
If you were taking valtrex, don't bother with a lesion culture monday - it'll most likely be negative no matter what by that time.
grace
grace
Hey I was curious Grace, if the culture was negative, is it possible that it was taken too late? Also, since the blood test was negative for HSV 1 Antibodies does that mean I am negative for HSV 1 and it has to be either A.) HSV 2 or B.) Something else as we discussed like a fungal or bacterial issue? I have recently taken a few days dosage or Valtrex and I have had another lesion appear, I am becoming more convinced it is indeed something else, unfortunately it is the weekend so I have to wait till it's over to make a appointment and get another culture, to be positive it isn't HSV. In the case it isn't, I hope they can figure out what it is, like I said they just ran with the assumption it was HSV 2 because of the blood test, despite the negative culture.. Any information or advice before I go back would be appreciated, They appear every few days it seems, my lips are rpetty dry around the edges, even though I have started using chapstick, and their is a faint red ring on the outer edges. Sorry to bother you again, just really looking to figure this thing out so I can get on with my life.. Hopefully I have a active lesion when I make a appointment and it isn't too late to get a good culture.. I want to be prepared when I go into the appointment so they don't just blow me off again and presume it's HSV 2.
Unfortunately sometimes folks don't take the time to really listen to the patient and look at the bigger picture. it's incredibly unusual to have recurrences this often for this long. You also didn't respond at all to antivirals. All clues are pointing away from oral herpes at this point. Blood tests are only helpful as far as telling you what you have, not telling you what is going on currently.
You hit the nail on the head with bacterial and fungal causes. Also some dermatological causes ( ie allergic reactions, blocked oil glands , skin disorders etc ). Ask to be sent to a dermatologist too when you follow up. At this point if you added up all the money you've spent on medications and supplements, you could've paid for a private derm doc too.
grace
You hit the nail on the head with bacterial and fungal causes. Also some dermatological causes ( ie allergic reactions, blocked oil glands , skin disorders etc ). Ask to be sent to a dermatologist too when you follow up. At this point if you added up all the money you've spent on medications and supplements, you could've paid for a private derm doc too.
grace
Just a tad bit follow up, I called my hospital and followed up on the culture results, It indeed did return with negative results for HSV. So I am really starting to wonder if it could be something else, bacterial, or fungal that has caused such a persistant and recurrent problem. Any idea are welcome, I am going to discontinue any medication and supplements and if/when a lesion occurs try to get it cultured immediately. The nurse I spoke with seems to think it isn't uncommon for HSV 2 to reappear orally so frequently.. I hope she is wrong, she said this even after telling me the culture was negative, based off the positive blood antibody.
Not a problem. I was just looking for some insight since the doctors just assumed it was HSV 2 because I tested positive for antibodies in the blood test. It was interesting to hear that it could actually be something else that has festered for this long. Didn't mean to offend you.
This is something to take up with the doctor. Nobody on line can diagnose you. I'm sure it's frustrating as hell, but you have to see somebody in person.
I think it's against the rules to post pics here. The other thing is, nobody here wants to look at your lesions. That's just gross. And nobody can diagnose it that way anyway.
Just get seen and take it from there.
I think it's against the rules to post pics here. The other thing is, nobody here wants to look at your lesions. That's just gross. And nobody can diagnose it that way anyway.
Just get seen and take it from there.
I was curious if there was a way while I am waiting to get to the doctor to have a culture done, if I can take a few pictures to show you the visible symptoms. I am really starting to wonder if it is indeed oral herpes. They never crust over, or weep, they are just red bumps, don't appear to have fluid in them. It is just that they have come so frequently over the last 7 months or so that made me assume it was HSV 2, not to mention I tested positive for HSV 2 via a blood test. Now when I go to the doctor to talk to them about, what are some other possible causes for this I can mention, they just assumed it was HSV based off the fact I had tested positive for HSV 2 antibodies, and did have red bumps on or near my lips. I don't think they truly know much about the condition etc. What other conditions can cause these symptoms for this long, to appear?
all I need to see from your blood test results is the actual results - ie hsv1 igg 4.4 and hsv2 igg 4.5 or whatever they are - nothing else. You can post that here on the board.
If these never get past the "bump" stage and turn into a fluid filled vesicle, even more likely it's not herpes related. They can do a pcr swab on it though even without any fluid in it - you literally wet a sterile q tip and rub it vigorously over the lesions and send it to the lab. Much better than a regular viral culture which does require fluid from the vesicle.
You really need to keep your lips moist. At least slather on the vaseline before bedtime. chapped lips can cause issues too.
grace
If these never get past the "bump" stage and turn into a fluid filled vesicle, even more likely it's not herpes related. They can do a pcr swab on it though even without any fluid in it - you literally wet a sterile q tip and rub it vigorously over the lesions and send it to the lab. Much better than a regular viral culture which does require fluid from the vesicle.
You really need to keep your lips moist. At least slather on the vaseline before bedtime. chapped lips can cause issues too.
grace
Couple questions for you.
If I stop all medication and supplements, and a new lesion indeed occurs, which I am confident it will because I had them prior to using anything, and still do, without much change in frequency or appearance, how do they go about taking a culture if it is just red bump, they don't generally get too far from the skin surface, some may be wide than others, but they don't swell with fluid much. Also I can work on getting you the paper results they gave me if you have a email you wouldn't mind me sending them to or something. As far as toothpaste, I have switched it up more than once since these symptoms began, and I don't use chapstick because I fear it will keep the bumps moist and prevent them from fading, could just be paranoia. My lips get pretty chapped at times, and I tend to let them heal on their own. As far as HSV 2, like I said I did well over a year before this oral problem began have some red bumps appear after a unprotected sexual encounter, so I am pretty sure that's when I got infected. But I never showed any oral signs, and I have never performed oral sex on a female. This started like I said months ago, and it just hasn't slowed frequency. I will attempt to stop all treatments as you suggest, but that makes me very nervous of course, that I will have a major breakout or something, but I will do it, to see what happens and then if I do get a new lesion I will get to the doctor asap for a culture. How accurate are the cultures?
Sorry for such a long post, and I truly do appreciate your help more than you can imagine, this has haunted me since it started, I hardly look people in the eye when I speak to them, I avoid going out and doing anything social, all kinds of lifestyle changes.
If I stop all medication and supplements, and a new lesion indeed occurs, which I am confident it will because I had them prior to using anything, and still do, without much change in frequency or appearance, how do they go about taking a culture if it is just red bump, they don't generally get too far from the skin surface, some may be wide than others, but they don't swell with fluid much. Also I can work on getting you the paper results they gave me if you have a email you wouldn't mind me sending them to or something. As far as toothpaste, I have switched it up more than once since these symptoms began, and I don't use chapstick because I fear it will keep the bumps moist and prevent them from fading, could just be paranoia. My lips get pretty chapped at times, and I tend to let them heal on their own. As far as HSV 2, like I said I did well over a year before this oral problem began have some red bumps appear after a unprotected sexual encounter, so I am pretty sure that's when I got infected. But I never showed any oral signs, and I have never performed oral sex on a female. This started like I said months ago, and it just hasn't slowed frequency. I will attempt to stop all treatments as you suggest, but that makes me very nervous of course, that I will have a major breakout or something, but I will do it, to see what happens and then if I do get a new lesion I will get to the doctor asap for a culture. How accurate are the cultures?
Sorry for such a long post, and I truly do appreciate your help more than you can imagine, this has haunted me since it started, I hardly look people in the eye when I speak to them, I avoid going out and doing anything social, all kinds of lifestyle changes.
Very few folks get recurrences of oral herpes this often. Having hsv2 be the culprit is even less likely. My advice is stop all supplements and all valtrex and when you get a fresh crop of lesions, be seen immediately for a repeat lesion culture.
If you tested + for hsv2 on a blood test then you are infected. Odds are that you have it genitally even if you can't recall symptoms there. Even if you do have hsv2 orally too, studies have shown that the vast majority of folks who have hsv2 orally also have it genitally so you should assume it's genitally too. I wouldn't believe that hsv2 is the cause of your oral symptoms unless you get a + lesion culture. Getting your blood test results to post for me to look at 1 - let's us confirm that you were properly tested and 2 - let's us see if you need additional confirmatory testing done.
Also no need to change your diet either. The lysine/arginine theory for herpes doesn't hold up outside of the test tube. Oral herpes is more likely to be triggered by illness, uv light. Also take a look at your toothpastes too - cinnamon flavoring, tarter control, whitening and complete/total formulations can cause issues. Also some lipsticks and chapsticks can too.
Like I said - it's time for a dermatologist. If your only options right now are the docs on base, be a thorn in their side and don't accept any visual diagnosis' at this point - they need to be doing testing since you've failed all herpes treatments and it's not behaving like oral herpes in general.
grace
If you tested + for hsv2 on a blood test then you are infected. Odds are that you have it genitally even if you can't recall symptoms there. Even if you do have hsv2 orally too, studies have shown that the vast majority of folks who have hsv2 orally also have it genitally so you should assume it's genitally too. I wouldn't believe that hsv2 is the cause of your oral symptoms unless you get a + lesion culture. Getting your blood test results to post for me to look at 1 - let's us confirm that you were properly tested and 2 - let's us see if you need additional confirmatory testing done.
Also no need to change your diet either. The lysine/arginine theory for herpes doesn't hold up outside of the test tube. Oral herpes is more likely to be triggered by illness, uv light. Also take a look at your toothpastes too - cinnamon flavoring, tarter control, whitening and complete/total formulations can cause issues. Also some lipsticks and chapsticks can too.
Like I said - it's time for a dermatologist. If your only options right now are the docs on base, be a thorn in their side and don't accept any visual diagnosis' at this point - they need to be doing testing since you've failed all herpes treatments and it's not behaving like oral herpes in general.
grace
Also, as far as what the test says, I just got handed a piece of paper from the doc that says
Lab details, test, herpes simplex 1 IGG , source is serum, result negative
and for Herpes Simplex 2 IGG source is serum again, and says result positive, also it has a column that says abnormal, and has the letter H under it, and nothing next to HSV 1. Not sure if this is useful at all, I am not sure what kind of test this is, but it was based off of a blood test they did.
They also handed me another piece of paper that says
Result: TEST NOT PERFORMED
No herpes simplex virus isolated
TEST NOT PERFORMED.
I am sorry for the sloppy post, but I just wanted to try and provide a visual as into what type of test they performed and what the results were.
Lab details, test, herpes simplex 1 IGG , source is serum, result negative
and for Herpes Simplex 2 IGG source is serum again, and says result positive, also it has a column that says abnormal, and has the letter H under it, and nothing next to HSV 1. Not sure if this is useful at all, I am not sure what kind of test this is, but it was based off of a blood test they did.
They also handed me another piece of paper that says
Result: TEST NOT PERFORMED
No herpes simplex virus isolated
TEST NOT PERFORMED.
I am sorry for the sloppy post, but I just wanted to try and provide a visual as into what type of test they performed and what the results were.
Out of curiosity what makes you say it doesn't sound like oral herpes? Is there any other condition that would cause these recurrent outbreaks to happen over such a long period of time (over 6 months). Also, I am actually not in the U.S. at the moment, and I am in the military, so I use the hospital here on base, each time I've just seen a regular doctor I think. I am pretty suprised, and hopeful I must admit to hear you two say it doesn't sound like oral herpes. But I have seen 2 different doctors when I went, the original one took a culture, and then sent me for the blood test. The blood test can mean I have been exposed to it in the past, not that this problem is actually herpes. The culture I beleive came back negative. But he did mention those are a tough read, since the sore was healing, he had to pick at it with a needle a little. As far as going back, when I've went back since then, based off the fact I had the blood test, and that I did have bumps present on or around my lips, the other doctors just we're under the assumption it was Oral Herpes, and they said HSV 2 can happen orally. Well, sorry to ramble, but like I said, what other condition could cause these OB's to be happening over this period of time? Or if anyone still believes it may actually be oral herpes, please respond with insight in that respect.
This doesn't sound anything like oral herpes. You need to consult a dermatologist at this point for further follow up. It could even be impetigo or something going on which needs antibiotics to clear up.
Do you know what your numeric results were for your blood test - ie hsv1 igg .45 and hsv2 igg 3.6 or whatever they were?
grace
Do you know what your numeric results were for your blood test - ie hsv1 igg .45 and hsv2 igg 3.6 or whatever they were?
grace
Also to follow on with your comment, something I forgot to mention is that these bumps don't itch. They aren't painful, and I can rarely feel them. It is the fact that they are visible, sometimes much more than others that makes them such a problem.. a couple of them that have healed have left a light reddish pink mark where they were also.. I am pretty confident it is HSV , I am just curious why the continual outbreak, for such a long period of time, especially when I have been taking steps to counter it and I am in overall good health..
That may be a possibility, because I am pretty sure I contracted HSV 2 well over a year before this began, at that time I experienced an initial OB on my genitals but then never again, and it was soon after have unprotected sex. So that could explain why I tested positive for HSV 2. I do suffer from extremely dry skin on my face and scalp, aswell as arms and hands, especially in the winter. But if that is the case, why would the symptoms only appear around my lips? I am not ruling that idea out, but at this point I am confident it is HSV based off the blood test and continual state of having OB around the lips constantly. Even if it was eczema, I have never heard of such a thing happening to the lips..? Not to get sidetracked, but anyone with advice based off my previous posts, please share.
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Herpes spreads by oral, vaginal and anal sex.
Herpes sores blister, then burst, scab and heal.
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STDs can't be transmitted by casual contact, like hugging or touching.
Syphilis is an STD that is transmitted by oral, genital and anal sex.
