We speak only in words.....

[TTinKKerBBell]

and they remain a LONG way from expressing what We try to say to One Another.   Example:  the word "forgive" means  Different things to Each of Us. You to think I would be doing myself a favor to "forgive" him.  From my point of view if he seeks/wants forgiveness it would be a personal matter between him and his God (I've tried to say this before) It's not my Power - it's God's Power - as in "repent your sins and you will be forgiven".  It's not my Place or Power or Need to "forgive" him.  Some things are Unacceptable to me - Infidelity tops the list - What he did was Wrong - I still see it as a Very Wrong thing to do in a Marriage - I STILL feel there is NO EXCUSE for infidelity - but I do not "hold a grudge" nor do I "harbor bad feelings".  THIS IS NOT MY BURDEN - his infidelity set me free to have the Wonderful Relationship I have today!!  At the time I did not think Emotionally or Mentally that I would EVER survive the HeartAche, Anguish, Pain & Despair - BUT if that's what I had to go through to have this Marriage I have today I would pay that price two more times to be where I am. Today I see it as he did me a favor!!  Today I Rejoice!!
I Truly Respect Your Choice/Decision to Stay in Your Marriages and I Absolutely Understand that Forgiveness is Very Important to All of You and is even Imperative for Each of You as You move on with Your Lives but Understand Some of Us don't Want/Need/Desire/orCare to do the "forgive" thing. I Understand You Mean Well - that's what You've Been Told in Your Counseling and Therapies and of course it would Behoove All of You to Do Exactly That - I Agree that for You "forgiveness" is the Best Thing.
I stumbled on this Forum quite by accident (perhaps I don't belong here) but initially I thought I might have support to offer Those who Cannot/Will Not continue on in the Face of Infidelity.  Those People exist also - I have seen Them here. Leaving Works for Some of Us.
I wish You All Well - the Stay-ers AND the Go-ers. Whichever way Each of You Choose:   God Be With You

[GroovyDeeDee]

Wow!  I guess I've been so self-absorbed, I thought you were in the same situation as me, with a really recent affair.  I just read your "My Story" post, and see the whole picture much more clearly.  Of course after so many years, and so many "second" chances, you needed to walk away.  And while you didn't 'forgive', you moved on and didn't let the anger and pain of his betrayal control your life.  You put your focus elsewhere.  

In order for me to do that, I have to 'forgive', at least somewhat.  As much as I can.  
This is our first, (and I am confident it's the only) incidence of infidelity.  We've been together 20 years, married for 18.  

He was with a girlfriend from High School.  They hooked up on facebook.  She convinced him there was a lot more than he remembered to their relationship.  She lied a lot.  Told him she was training to run a 10K, that she had all of my best charecteristics, but better.  That she had none of my 'failings'. When he actually met up with her, and the sexual part took place, she was VERY overweight, obviously not running anywhere - and in other ways, not the woman she portrayed herself to be.  

I think she believed if she plied him with sexual favors, he would overlook the lies. (She offered him all sorts of nasty stuff, and told him he could have anything he wants, anytime he wants.)  What she didn't know, was he has that here.  We were a very happy couple.  Very satisfied with our relationship, but during the 'friendship' phase of their relationship, she asked him to never speak of our physical love, or our romance.  She said she and her husband were no longer physical and she didn't like to think about us being that way.  So I think she convinced herself, since Brice didn't talk about it, none of it was happening.  

After I found out about the situation, he referred to her as a 'rube' and was appaled at the things she had offered, and asked for - on what was essentially a 'first date'.  I was able to point out what she was doing, how she was manipulating, and  trying to woo him with what she thought all men want.   After all, we have been together 18 years - we have dabbled in 'spicing things up,' but now we just know what we like.  All that weird stuff is gross, especially when its presented by someone you haven't seen for 25 years.  

After their meeting, if Brice would try to end their contact, she would threaten to tell me everything.  Finally, I gave him an ultimatum, and he broke it off with her.  She did call, and made sure I knew EVERYTHING!  But Brice had told me first, so the shock was less than it would hve been.  

I even told her during that first 'text' conversation that she deserved happiness, just not with my husband - and wished her a nice life.  She continued to torment me and make jabs over facebook and by texting me.  But it has subsided, and Brice and I are moving on.

Last night, we had a conversation about our relationship, and it actually brought me to tears of joy.  It felt so good to feel that after all these months of bitter tears.  I have more confidence than ever that Brice and I will be ok.  

He truly is a good guy.  I think that in the long run, this may have been the catalyst he needed to get into therapy and work on himself, and for me to do the same.  

Once again, I must express my thanks to all of you here for helping us through this.  For giving me an outlet when I needed to vent.  

I always feel I can say anything here, and I know Brice will eventually see it, too and we can both benefit from hearing the perspective of others in the same boat.  

May everyone everywhere be happy - May the Whole world be Joyous!  ~ (an ancient, Sanskrit blessint, which I love)

[mami1323]

Wow tinkerbell that's awful. You are a strong woman. I'm sure in his own sick way your ex husband did love you. Just wasn't capable of being a man of integrity and couldn't love you the way you deserved to be loved. What happened when you finally walked away for good? Can I ask?

[lovemykids465]

Thank you for posting that, Your are a very strong woman, I could not have put up with 15 years of it, Hell, I do not even know where I am today. It is a day to day process, Things are not to good for us right now,

[TTinKKerBBell]

DeeDee,
Brice is a Very Lucky Man - I Truly hope He merits Your Faith and Belief.  I commend You for Hanging in There.  Because I've expressed Anger and Unforgiveness Most of You think I didn't give my husband a "chance".  First affair I learned of was 1 1/2 yr. into our marriage.  He had numerous affairs over the next 15 years and among them they included "friends", 2 sisters-in-law, and countless others.  I spent most our years thinking there was something wrong with me - I would ask him "why, why, why" & his answer was ALWAYS:  "I don't know, I love you, and I don't know why I do this".  So - over and over, again and again, I would try harder and harder to be a good wife, fulfill his needs, wants, desires.  We had 3 Children and I was determined to save our marriage. Long, Long Story - but in the end - I am a very small person (5'0" and 92 pounds) - when I learned of my husbands last affair it was with a sister-in-law (MY BROTHER'S WIFE!!) who was 5'1" tall and she weighed 192 pounds. That's when I gave up.  None the less - I do wish You the Best. Sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't.

It wasn't easy for me to tell You this.  Please know there's more - there's always more to say than we can ever say.

[GroovyDeeDee]

Tink, I agree with everything you said, BUT in my specific case, I wanna give Brice his props.  He is handling this all very well, and has put up with more than I would ever have imagined.  He can never completely make up for what he did, but he is doing SO MUCH to make sure I feel loved, and wanted, and to reassure me it will never happen again!  I know he will never feel the kind of pain I went through, but he is going to therapy, and with me to learn as much as he can about what I'm going through.  I appreciate his efforts.  I'm just sayin' let's not throw ALL guys in the same boat.  There are some good ones out there, even if they stumble . . .

[TTinKKerBBell]

It's not about looks.  A Penis doesn't have eyes - CAN'T SEE A THING!!

The Biggest Sex Organ is the Brain (and it CAN see!!)  SO - it's not about looks!!

It's about "sex on the side" AND it's about he thinks we won't find out.  Also - I think it's interesting that we try not to bring it up to them cuz they don't want to feel bad about what they did BUT it is ALWAYS in our Hearts,our Minds and We feel bad yet We're expected by them and by Ourselves to "stuff it".  This is PAINFUL!! HEART WRENCHING!! and if they still want the Relationship too then why shouldn't they buck up and take on WHATEVER it takes, WHATEVER we hand them cuz it IS the right thing to do AND it is the CONSEQUENCE of the choice they made!!  We didn't ask for this & damned if I'll ever believe what we SAY is going to make THEM feel worse than WE feel about what they DID.

ATTN MEN:
Come on, Guys, MAN UP -  Be Understanding and Loving When Your Woman Lashes Out At You and Be GrateFul That You Haven't Experienced Her Pain.  Sometimes Vindiction is all She has to Fight/Defend/Espress HerSelf with Because Infidelity in return is Out of the Question for Most of Us. IT IS NORMAL TO FEEL VINDICTIVE AND DEFENSIVE WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN WRONGED - AT LEAST ALLOW US THAT IN RETURN FOR WHAT YOU DID.  

[mami1323]

George Clooney is ok, he has commitment issues but he never cheated on his wife....lol.

[lor662]

Ya but so is my husband lol,,and ya what about george clouney,lol

[mami1323]

Eeewww Brad Pitt is a scumbag...lol.  I was the same, always bringing up the other woman and that's the only time he would think of her.  I don't know why I still to this day bring her up.  I wish it was still a distant memory.  When we argue I still go for the digs.  I guess to let him know he's lucky I'm still here.  

[lor662]

I cannot believe you just said that,,this had nothing to do with your weight or looks,,i have 5 children had 6,, lost one at 7 months in a accident,,im a size 0,,5 ft 6,,always took care of myself,,now he is overweight has like 3 tires around his big belly,,he let himself go,no offence to any one,,,if any one would of ever thought an affair would happen they would of picked me to do it,,,i would never disrespect myself to engage in such a hurtfull thing,,and i loved him so never would of done that to him,,also,,like i said the woman he was with looked older and was not well you no,,so dont ever think that,,are husbands are not brad pit,,lol

[lovemykids465]

You are so right. It is the newness of someone chasing them, that feeling of being wanted that lust it is not love, I know, I have been there but I was able to say this is in no way right, The funny thing is she and I have alot of the same features. We are both, tall, blond, fair skin, The difference is I use to be a size 4, now I am a 10 ( working on that but had an eating disorder when Joe and I first got together) She was 18 years younger then Joe, She may be stick thin but has an ugly face, He keeps telling me not to compare myself to her b/c it was more of an emotional connection but that is still hard to do at times,

[lovemykids465]

Thank you, You sound so much like Joe. He said the same thing, he does not even think about her unless I bring her up, He hates when I do it, I try not to, I did not bring this last episode up to him, But you are right, There are times that Dee Dee is hurting so much that she just wants you to hurt too, Been there done that but then I feel bad when I make him hurt lol, Who knows Misery loves company,

I can see it in his eyes sometimes when he doesn't realize I am looking. I can see how he is disappointed in himself,

[lor662]

Its clear men engage in affair because they are attracted to the other person if not it would not happen,,it also does not mean that they are more attractive then you are,,it could be a new affection of attention etc,,i saw a pic of the woman my husband had an affair with and dont take this the wrong way but she was 40 for real looked 50 had milage on her so it looked,,im 46 i was always told i looked younger if you recall all my recent pics i had up,,i have 5 children some say they would never ever guessed that ,,someone thought my 26 year old son was my partner,,lol,,also she had 1 child,,so looks have nothing to do with it,,also lets talk about personality,,what kind of self esteem do you have when you no you are going out with a lier and a cheater,,they think they are high on a pedestal ,,oh look i got your man,,no what you got is low self esteem to go out with a lier and cheater aside from the fact your personality lacs any kind of self worth towards children and others,,Now my husband is overweight,,not that there is anything wrong with that,,but had how you say charisma in personality,,he is no fabio lol so all in all its an attraction of something that does really not have to do with looks sometimes,,that being said these men and woman dont deserve are time,,its them are spouces do you think they after all the planned out lies they are going to all of a sudden just be mr or mrs perfect and tell you truth,,,oh thell tell you what they think you wanna hear,,expression ,,,no a lepord cant not change there spots,,and a affair can NOT BE FORGOTEN,,thanks

[brice1967]

Oh man, it gets ugly when she goes there.  After a while I just unplug from the situation and become defensive....not for the other woman, but for me and Dee Dee.  She knows the attacts are coutner productive but sometimes she just wants me to feel the same pain she is feeling.  I am really trying to find a better way to deal with that, but am having a helluva time finding it.

I think I know what Joe is thinking in the matter you spoke of above.  I try to do everything to not conjure up the other woman.  Matter of fact, the only time I think of her now is when it comes up in conversation/arguements with Dee Dee pertaining to the affair.  Where were lucky is the other woman is 1800 or so miles away.  (Impossible to run  into her)  I just wish I could take back time.  I wish I could take back or erase everything that reminds Dee Dee of this horrible thing.

She has incredible clarity most of the time, but every once in a while all of the images come back into view for her.  Thats when things get sticky.  We are both trying, both growing.  (Glad to hear that this too is normal)

Thanks!!!! :)

[lovemykids465]

Brice , I did the same thing. It comes from lack of self worth. I mean we just can not grasp if you guys were so in love with us and it had nothing to do with our appearance and so on, why you did what you did. I mean there had to be some attraction there for it to happen and that is what your wife is thinking about at times. I know Joe will not choose her over me now but sometimes I wonder if he ever thinks about her and what if, I can not allow those thoughts to take root because then I am a wreck and lash out at Joe. Even now, I was in the town Joe works in, I met him for lunch and then did some shopping, He called me and said he was getting off and he would see me at home he had to go pick up our new puppy first. I told him I was just leaving so wait for me in the parking lot and I would meet him. He hemed and Hawed a bit  about finding a place that was 1/2 way so I did not have to back track.But then said no, just meet me hear, so I am on the way then he calls and says no meet me in the parking lot of the retirement home. So I did. But I was a pit anxious about why he did not want to meet at his place of employment. We always meet up there. I assume it is b/c she is there and working the front and he just wants to avoid me seeing her and getting moody but he does not know what he did makes me more nervous because, then I say to myself, well does he still have feelings for her ( I know he doesn't) then as soon as he gets home he goes up and showers.

[brice1967]

Now I am getting a better picture.  You have come across as a very angry, bitter person that hasnt moved on, but since I now know that you indeed have and have found happiness, I get what you've been saying.  I am glad that you've found happiness.

I just hope that happiness will find its way back into my relationship.  The last 2 days were a bit ugly, but we did manage to find a bit of peace last night, and snuck out without the kids for a quick dinner.

Her anger comes in waves.  Normally I see it coming, but this time I did not.  I know what I am supposed to be doing and am trying my best.  I understand what Ive done, and understand the gravity behind what I have done.


The one thing I am having a hard time dealing with is when she attcks me, telling me that she knows that I still want to be with the other woman.  I know it has to do with the anger and the trust that I have destroyed.  But I do also know that she knows that I dont want anything else with the other woman, or any woman for that matter.  Its part of the PTSD.  She is saying "I know you still want the other woman, just give her a call" because she knows it hurts my feelings.  She knows what is going to hurt my feelings and is using it to make me feel some of what she is feeling.

[mami1323]

Oh wow, well congrats on 26 years.  That is such an accomplishment in this day and age.  Thank you for what you said.  I think everyone has their own ways of dealing with things.  I would be lying if I said that I can't understand your anger.  It can be so consuming sometimes.  I am in a much better place now but the anger does linger.  Your ex husband probably lives with his regret even to this day.  Good for you for doing what was best for you.

[TTinKKerBBell]

Amen, Mami, I understand what You said here and I think You get what I've tried to express -  I SO respect Your choice.  It was "right" for You and Mine was "right" for me.

(P.S. - that was a typo - fact is We just had Our 26th HoneyMoon!!)

[mami1323]

You know what Tinkerbell, I totally get that.  I don't think you have to forgive him.  I know they say to forgive is divine but if I had decided to leave my fiance and move on without him, I don't think it would be necessary to forgive him.  I would try my hardest to not have ill will towards him since we share a child but I don't think it would come with forgiveness.  If we didn't share a child then even more a reason not to have to forgive.  But yes, since I chose to stay I had no choice but to forgive him in order to move forward and rebuild our relationship.  If I couldn't do that, I don't think it's possible to remain in my relationship at all.  Because then I am doing myself, my child and him a diservice.  We would all be wasting our lives in an unhappy situation.  Congratulations on 25 years with your husband.  I'm glad you found a partner that is your equal and has the same moral values as you do.  

[TTinKKerBBell]

You seem to be selective in Your focus on my post(s).  You see me as Bitter, Mad, Angry today and You hope I can find Happiness.  Re-read my post.  I speak of his infidelity as being a Favor to me in the end (in the sense that I did not tolerate the betrayal - I left).  My Choice not to "forgive" him Empowered me to Free myself from him and that set me Free to have the Marriage I have today.   AND I SAID  "today I Rejoice" (We just had our 25th HoneyMoon).  I am married to a Man whose Standards and Morals Parallel my own, a Man who Believes that infidelity in a Marriage "Breaks the Bond" and there is no turning back once that Bond is broken - He was cheated on also and  our Hearts are in the Same Place.  I will FOREVER feel that infidelity in a Marriage is Wrong.  I don't consider it a "mistake" - a married person knows it's WRONG and CHOOSES to do it anyway - it is NOT a mistake it is a CHOICE and that choice is made while You know You have a partner at risk - one that You made a Vow to).  THAT is the anger You hear/have heard.  I am no longer angry at my ex - but I am angry about infidelity - I will ALWAYS feel there is NEVER an "excuse" or "reason" to be unfaithful - that being said - today I am Grateful - it's because of what he did that I am where I am today.    There are other People who see this the same way I do.  There are others who don't.  Each and Every One of You Take What You Can Use From What I Say and LEAVE THE REST.  I Understand What Forgiveness is and that to Survive Your Marriages You Need to Forgive and Be Forgiven - I get that.  "Forgiveness" was not a consideration for me and it worked for me.  I feel "forgiveness" is a gift from God AND a gift from a Spouse who wants to keep Her Marriage intact in spite of the Betrayal.  We differ in our perception of what "forgiveness" is and when it should be "given".  I don't see it as being "mine" to give - God may care what he did - I no longer do.

[brice1967]

TTinKK,
If this in reference to me and my lst post, I think youve got me as wrong as I apparently have you.  You seem so bitter, and mad, and angry...and I understand all of that.  All I am saying is dont let that get in the way of living your life.  Your anger on past threads seems all encompassing.

You have every right to feel the way you do, and honestly I cant say that I wouldnt feel the same way.  As long as you can move on in life, your emotions arent a problem.

If I can ask, how long ago was the affair that affected your life?  Have you done any conseling, or consider any counseling?

I understand how you feel, I really do. I wish you well, and hope you find happiness.