Infidelity User Group
bump in the road
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For those who have been a victim of an affair and are trying to get their life back on track. This group can discuss the feelings and emotions behind it and also support those who are trying to recovery from it.

Founded by mami1323 on October 7, 2009
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bump in the road

Well, here we are again. I do not know what to think. Is it the same thing, No. But it is still wrong because he knew how it would make me feel. And once again he can not answer why. Okay fool me once shame on you but again Shame on me. How much is to much.  I found out that Joe had been talking to one of his clients about our situation. That is okay. I mean I do the same thing here, We all need a time to vent, someone to talk to, but this was a woman and they were secretly talking on the phone! Come ON! That is how the situation started the first time. I know without a shadow of a doubt it was just a casual friendship because I went to her office and confronted her without Joe knowing and she did tell me exactly what he said, She said that they hid it b/c her fiance did not know Joe and would not have liked that she was talking to another man on the phone even though they were just friends and that Joe knew I would not like it. SO WHY THE H E L L do it!

But what makes me mad is that he would delete them off his phone so I could not see the calls. He knows I check the log periodically. She said he only talked to her when Kate was ill or when we had a bad fight and so on.  Still makes me feel like dirt. He did something he knew would hurt me, even if he thought it was a stupid thing for me to get upset about, he still choose his feelings over mine.

And he said there was nothing there but the calls were becoming more frequent and the funny thing is we were doing great. SHe said she was having trouble in her relationship and that is what they talked about. IDK it is not right. He said there was no attraction but then when I saw her, IDK. I am so sick of this crap.

I told him he took me right back to last summer. I can not believe I am feeling this all over again, It has been a week. I have not been able to talk about it only to one individual. ( thank you)  I told Joe it was like last year he took my heart and broke it and we have spent the last 11 months piecing it back together. It is not perfect any more, there were cracks in it and it was very fragile but back together and then he intentionally drops it again and this time it shatters.

When I ask him why he did not just come out and tell me he was talking to someone and not hid it he said he knew I would say no way and he is right. I would have said this is how you ended up cheating in the first place, go back to counseling or talk to one of your guy friends ( he said getting a woman's view was better. I agree but then talk to a mutual friend) so for him to do it knowing how I would feel really hurts me.Then I ask why her, he said she was nice and easy to talk to, a bit flirty in the beginning but he told her that he does not play that game. UGH! Why can't I just hate him.
I asked him to leave for a while. He stayed with family for a few days and then came back home on Friday ( our eldest son was coming home on leave) things were good all weekend and sunday was actually enjoyable. Friday night we went out and talked and I thought I was ok but then Sunday night I just freaked out. Went nuts, scraming and yelling, even beat him on his chest. I was so mad at him for doing this to me again. He said he could not believe things were going so well we seemed so happy and then bingo I blew it!!!! I told him just like he did to me. Things were going so well and then bingo he blew it.

According to her they talked most of the time in the office ( started in June ) first time b/c Kate was in the hospital and I was staying with her and was real moody and we were arguing a bit. Then our son went in for surgery and once again I was there and we did have a fight about how he is not there for me and the kids and so on. IT ended up being pretty bad and yes the Scarlett issue came up. She said that is when she gave him her # and said if you need to talk. They had not talked until two weeks ago today. She was coming out of her office and crying when Joe went in so he called her to see what was up. She had a fight with her fiance, then I see that they talked all the way until Sat. a few x a day. Really pi$$es me off!
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145992_tn?1341348674
I sent you a pm.  I think it was a very stupid thing for Joe to do.  So now you have to worry that every time you and him fight he's going to go to the next woman and start up a "friendship".  That isn't a fear you need to live with, especially because life isn't perfect and neither are relationships and you can't constantly keep up this facade that everything is honky dory all the time.  He needs to find another way of dealing with his issues.  I think you both need to go to counseling because I don't think Joe understands the gravity his past actions have had on this current situation.  He needs to get it.
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Avatar_f_tn
He has agreed to go back to counseling. He also meets with our pastor once a week now. I honestly believe he has some issues he needs to deal with, I do not know why they are coming up now after 22 years of being together ( 20 years of marriage) but Joe was the product of an extramarital relationship ( on his mom's part). She gave him up. He was adopted by a loving couple in their 50's. Well his dad died when he was 11 and his mom when he was 12. He then moved in with an older sister who was verbally and physically abusive. I really think he craves attention from woman due to all of this. not so much craves but when they show it to him he is sucked in to it. I am now dealing with personal issues that I have not had to deal with in over 10 years, such as self esteem and body image. I made an appointment for myself to get some help before Joe and I go together. I need to get my emotions under control before I can even begin to work on our relationship.
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Avatar_f_tn
His affair Forever changed things - He needs to get that.  It's part of Him taking Responsibility for what His indescretion has done to the Relationship.  Yes, You do talk/share on this forum but for the most part Everyone is somewhat anonymous here in the sense that we are quite distant from One Another - it's not a "personal" relationship.  That's not the case with someone of the opposite sex who is also a client and present in the here and now.  I don't question it was "innocent" but it's still sort of a betrayal that both of them felt it best to be secretive & to keep it from You and the Fiance.  Betrayals probably always start small.  Also - if He already knows You would not like it then He should not participate in the 1st place - but to participate and then keep it from you cuz He knows You wouldn't like it??!!
In Your 6th paragraph You say "things were going so well & You seemed so Happy & then bingo - You blew it".  I can't believe You or He either one thinks You are the one who "blew it" here!! - He blew it (again) by keeping this secret!!  So - You're Fragile after what happened the 1st time - He's supposed to bend over backwards, or whatever it takes, to put back together Your shattered Heart & that would not include secretly talking to a lady in distress who's crying cuz she had a fight with her fiance, "who's nice, and easy to talk to & a bit flirty in the beginning".  Who the Heck needs this!!??

P.S.  I know He has ChildHood Issues.  We all do.  We're all born in a pit - some pits are deeper than others but it's our job to climb out & take responsibility for what kind of person we CHOOSE to be.  It ALWAYS comes down to Choice.
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Avatar_m_tn
Wow, I am so sorry to hear that.  here I thought you and Joe were the most grounded in recovery folks Dee Dee and I knew about.  You guys actually came up in conversation either last night or this morning.  (We too hit a bump in the road)  For us, we've moved on to a different step in the recovery stage, or reverted perhaps.  Dee Dee is really mad all of a sudden, more than hurt.  (I am playing by the rules-I want no conversations with any women other than on this board and pertaining to what were all going thru)

Something else thats similar between Joe and I is that I too was adopted.  I was adopted at birth, and only knew my adoptive parents as the only parents I ever knew.  I found out that I was adopted after being over to another families home for a swim party when I was 7.  One of the other family's kids didnt look like the others.  (Oddly enough, he was a middle child)  Anyhow, I asked my mother why that was and she told me that he was adopted and explained what adoption was.  She then informed me that my sister and I were adopted.  (I felt crushed....someone had me and just gave me up for adoption)  My mother explained that she had 2 still born babies and was unable to concieve (conceive) again.  She said that she and my father (they were divorced at this time) wanted to be parents, and they basically chose me.  Initially, that made me feel better.  Although my birth parents didnt want me, my adoptive parents did.

I asked a few questions throughout the years pertaining to my birth parents.  Depending on whom I asked, I got conflicting stories.  Through the years, the stories I did get were changing.  I asked my mother in my adolesence if she could help me find some information about who I was and she told me that it would hurt her feelings if I conducted a search.  I honored that, not wanting to hrut her feelings, but later started a half baked search only to be thwarted by a hot lead turned cold.  Recently, I have started another search, but just kind of poking around.  My adoptive mother is still alive and I dont want to hurt her.

Fast forward to today.  Something thats been on my mind since I found out I was adopted was that I really didnt know who I was.  That has been bothering me almost daily for 36 years!!!  Now, I am not the man my husband married, and I am not the guy I used to be.  I have numerous issues I am addressing in therapy, but me not knowing who I am on the most basic level haunts me daily.  I do not know where I came from!  Perhaps if I did, I could better explain why I feel the way I do sometimes..... between this and some issues I had with my adoptive father, I had been diagnosed with a detachment disorder and lack assertiveness with women.  I dont know.... I cant help but feel that if I had addressed all of my issues when I was inititally diagnosed as clinically depressed, I could have got some answers and this horrible affair never would have happened.

I keep telling Dee Dee that she didnt do anyting to facilitate this affair.  it wasnt that she was doing something, or not doing something.  It's because I am selfish/was selfish.  I did it because of me.  That isnt good enough for her.  She takes it out on herself, which in turn makes me feel crappy.  I felt as if we made some serious ground with our latest talk, but hse is still having a hard time with it.  She wants me to have fallen out of love with her in order to have fallen in love with this other woman...but thats not the case.  I did push aside her, and didnt necessarily think of the repercussions, or at least the extent of the repercussions of me doing this.  I never did not love her during this, but I did put her aside.  I was running 2 relationships at the same time.  Our therapist said it was me living 2 realities.  That made sense to both of us at the time, it was explained in detail to us and we both got it.....today?  Not so much.

THIS IS HARD!!!!!!   I wish to the highest powers that this never happened.  I sometimes wish I had a religious background on which to fall for support, but am agnostic.  I believe in something, just perhaps not God, or even know what God is....(different topic completely)  I have issues with organized religion and have seem too many people hind behind their religion, and have seem the religious be the most judgemental beings on the planet.

Therapy is working, but it isnt going at a pace I am satisfied with.  My next session I am going to try something new.  Cant remember what it is called, but it sounds promissing.
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Avatar_m_tn
Tink is right.  It does all come down to choices, and I sure as heck made a horrible one.  One that went against everything I ever stood up for.  I could not/would not stop until I was handed the ultimatum.  By then the actual sexual had taken place.

What I need to figure out is why I made this decison.  What led me to go against everything I ever believed, go against every code I ever lived by, for this taudry affair.  I know its in there, and am counting on my personal therapy to find something out about me that I didnt already know.
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brice that's what my fiance said as well.  He said he never stopped loving me during his affair, although he was disconnected from me emotionally.  It's because he was balancing two relationships and I guess felt guilty.  He was also not nice to me and started arguments with me to justify his actions.  This way he didn't feel like he was wrong.  It's crazy how similar people's reasoning can be.
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Avatar_m_tn
That is exactly what I did!  It's completely irrational!  I kind of get how Dee Dee doesnt understand it, but she did have a grasp on it one day in therapy.  It was mentioned that I was living 2 realities..... and she understood that, or at least got it a bit.  Today and yesterday, not so much.

Ugh!  I am so frustrated with me, and not being able to help her as much as I think I should be able too.  I'm really frustrated on numerous levels, and am having a hard time putting into words for her to understand.  When I try, it just blows up.  

I am not a patient guy, but am staying in there.  Some of this garbage, I worry, is trying her patience.  I totally feel her frustration too.  She wants a grasp on it..... One day she is convinced that she needs to quit playing the victim, then like she says, an arrow out of the dark hits her and she goes into a spin.

She said soemthing today that scares me a bit.  She says she has doubt again that we can make it.  When I feel as if we are on the same page, something happens and it becomes known that we arent.  Did you folks exprience that or are you experiencing any of that?
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973741_tn?1342346373
Oh, I am so sorry to read this.  Bumps in the road can hurt--------- and I hate that this happened and you are feeling this way.  

What I'm wondering is what exactly he is getting out of the 'talking' and connecting to someone else.  I do believe from all you've written that he loves you very much and wants your marriage to work.  But something else drives him to want this connection.  It doesn't, to be honest, sound sexual in nature (breaking from the cliche we typically have about infidelity) but more emotional.  Does she make him feel important?  Is he rescuing her as she is sad?  As he talked to her on a couple of occasions when he was distressed about things with you two (which is ANNOYING but it was only twice)----- but really started talking as SHE was having issues makes me wonder that.  There is a gain of some sort that he is getting-------- whether it is good info to help with you, a stroke to his ego, a sense of importance, a feeling of being a man (one thing that I know won't be popular when I say this-------- but after a male has cheated in a relationship, often when he stays-------- he is treated like he's been sent to the corner, he's under a microscope, he feels the pain he's caused and the wrath from it frequently . . . all understandable------ but hard to live like that.  It is demoralizing to a man.  Before you write me letters world--------- I know he deserves it but it is important to look at the aftermath of an affair from HIS point of view when you are talking about healing a relationship)?  Any one of those things can be powerful driving forces.

Does he understand he crossed a boundary again?  This is important.  I think it is excellent to go to the counselor and that he is also meeting weekly with your minister.  Maybe he can write you a letter every week as well committing himself to you and present it to you.  It doesn't have to be long-------- but if he puts his thoughts into it . .. he will 'think' about his transgressions and actions more carefully.  I've liked it when a spouse has cheated decides they will do that for their partner.  They can write "I thought of you this week when . . ." or " I am committed to you and showed it this week by . .. "  or "I love you and am so happy we are together, I look forward to this with you. . . "  Doing it weekly sounds like overkill--------- but it works on seeing what we are actually doing to keep a relationship working.  Just an idea.

I also liked when you said that you have been happy and things are going well.  Feel that in your bones.  That is very important.  I would try to continue along those lines.  

I wish you all the best.  I will just be hoping and praying everything works out for you two.  Peace.
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Avatar_f_tn
Mami:    Never stopping loving You while He is having an affair &
Brice:    Still loving DeeDee while You are having an affair -

Is sorta like Having Your Cake and Eating it too  - or being in a Card Game with an Ace up Your Sleeve.

Brice:  DeeDee is not "playing" the Victim - She IS the Victim and Her SeeSawing Emotions are Symptomatic of one who has been Victimized.
It's NOT an arrow out of the dark - She's out there treading in Shark Infested Water during moments when she is thrown off her Surfboard

Brice:  Nothing "sacred" happens when an egg & a sperm meet - often it's simply a biological event.  If one is "given up" at birth one should probably be grateful that the "birth parent" realized it was best for the Baby.  For someone to consciously, intentionally choose to adopt a baby is one of Great Unselfless Love!!  Finding out You were adopted didn't "change" who You are - one day You were somebody - next day You found out You were adopted and You were somebody else??!!
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First of all thank you all for your kind words and support. This may sound so stupid but I was really afraid to post because I did not think I could take anymore negativity toward Joe. I honestly do love him with all I have and I think that is why it hurts so bad. I am trying to stay positive and when I do it works, like Special mom said,Feel that in your bones, that is what our pastor said, remember all the good feelings we have experienced this last year and dwell on them. The thing is, this last incident made me feel like the good things were not real, like they were real to me but not him but reading Brice's post made me realize they were and are. I mean Joe feels like a jerk. He said it was honestly not the same situation on his part ( feelings wise)  but that he did feel like he was under a constant microscope and yes, he does like the attention. When we met I was a wild out going person, Joe was very timid and shy, everyone liked him but he did not have many friends. He had one good friend ( his roommate, we met in college) because he pretty much stayed to himself. He went to classes and then work then bed. So when we got together everyone was shocked. Unfortunately, I had a reputation, and Joe had only dated 2 girls before he met me. I was 18 he was 20. We married when I was 20. He said when he was younger no one would even look his way but now that he is in his 40's he gets the attention and gets drawn into it. IDK why he feels he needs it. I mean I am very attentive and caring, he said it is not that I am not. But any way, I hope he can figure it out because I can not go through this again. He swears to me it will not happen again but I have heard that before.

Brice, Joe did not find out he was adopted until he was 26. It freaked him out. He always felt different ( well from the time he lived with his sister). He to said he has no clue who he really is but like TinkerBBell said, I tell him he is Joe, my husband, father to his children and son of his adoptive parents. My dad was adopted and we adopted our eldest child. I understand the feeling of rejection you all go through, but you are all loved even greater then you ever could have been.
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Avatar_m_tn
"Arrow out of the dark" and "playing the victim" are exactly the terms She used.....
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145992_tn?1341348674
Oh Tink no doubt it's having his cake and eating it to.  He wanted the best of both worlds.  I never thought that he didn't love me, he just didn't love me the way I deserved to be loved and couldn't fully love me when he had developed feelings for someone else.  

Brice, your wife's feelings are very normal.  She had her world turned upside down and to be fair, it just happened.  It may seems to you that it was a long time ago but to Dee Dee it feels like it was just yesterday.  She is struggling because she doesn't want to feel the feelings she is having.  She WANTS to be over it, she wishes she could let it go.  She doesn't know what to do or where to go with it all.  She thinks that if you two are not together anymore than it will make it all go away.  So you have to understand what she is going through on a constant basis.  She loves you, wants her marriage, but she wants what she thought she had before the affair back and knows it will never be that way again. It's frustrating and disappointing.  The first year after the affair is a very straining time.  You are trying to understand why it happened, you are trying to rebuild trust and you are constantly doubting everything.  She will find a way to get through it at some point and the only thing you can do is be there for her.  Support her, make sure she knows you love her and be extremely transparent.  It's very hard and not easy to stick out because I'm sure you do feel like a punching bag at times and it comes out of no where but that's when you have to put yourself in her shoes.  Imagine she had done it to you and then try to be understanding.  Richie and I went through this and almost separated numerous times.  He felt like specialmom said, like he was living under a microscope and to this day he still feels that way.  We are still trying to find a happy medium in our lives.  We want normalcy and hope at some point we can get there.  

Love, sweetie, I sent you a pm.
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You seem a little critical of me.  I'm not so sure what makes you the authority on what an adopted person is supposed to feel like. Were you adopted?  Do you know what its like to find out that the people that are you parents, arent you birth parents and that you are not entitled to find anything out about your birth parents???  

And indeed, I was born someone (genetically) and some of my genetic traits pertaining to personality transferred over and I became someone else by who raised me, the morals they instilled.  That absolutely did happen.  Take twins, seperated at birth.  One lives with the most affluent family in town, the other lives in complete isolation say perhaps in the bayou.  The most affluent child is subjected to all of the finer things, clothing, education, and the other learns howto provide for himself.  Although genetically they share the same dna, they end up being completely different people.

Oh, and back to the "Arrow out of the dark," and "playing the victim" things that are Dee Dee's exact words....I know you hate them.  If her emotions cannot come out of the dark, as she says, and if she isnt playing the victim....how can she be "treading in shark infested waters during moments when she's been thrown off her surf board"?
We are land locked, at least 1100 miles away from the coast, and Dee Dee has maybe been to the ocean 2 times?  

Not very nice to play the authority on subjects you know nothing about, (how I or any number of adopted people feel) then pick apart language that a victim used and I paraphrased, then use the same imagery....

I'm not trying to pick a fight.  
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Avatar_f_tn
I totally understood "arrow out of the dark" and "playing the victim" were Her words - My response was to the post - YOUR post in which You were quoting Her.  I also realize She's probably been made to feel She's "Playing the Victim" & that Her Emotions "Come Out of the Dark" because She has been told She needs to Forgive and re-build Her life - & try as She might She still has Moments where She feels like the Victim (which She is) in spite of how hard She tries.  And then She feels Bad as if She's doing Something Wrong!! I am saying Her Feelings, Her Responses are Perfectly Normal  AND  Well Deserved!!  You would do EXACTLY the same thing if these tables were turned - IF the Male Ego even allowed You to stay & go thru the Turmoil that comes when Your Partner cheats.

You said I seem critical of You - That wasn't my intention - I'm not in the LEAST critical here AND I'm NOT an authority (nor do I claim to be) but I do have an adult brain & it's pretty simple to figure reasons one would give up a Baby.  It's also simple to figure one who would adopt would be a Loving Parent.  It makes sense to wonder about Genetics possibly for health reasons but once we become adult it seems that Intellectually  we could put the other matters into place and probably were You to know the details You would be GrateFul You were adopted.  You're the one who said You don't know where You came from and this has bothered You almost DAILY for 36 years!! That's the part I don't understand -  why You (or anyone) would feel They don't know who they are because of  an Adoption.

Not all of us are Adopted but EVERYONE of Us has Issues.  As I said earlier - We're ALL born in a pit (apparantly this one is Yours) and as Adults it's our Job to climb out.  I didn't say it was easy - it never is - for any of us - but it's still our job.

I'm not an "Authority" on anything but I am a Thinking, Feeling, Somewhat Intellectual Person who has learned a few things along the way - take what You can use from whatever I might say and leave the rest.

I'm not trying to pick a fight either

TTinKK
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I am doing much better today. I just pray I can stay this way. I know it takes time and thank God it is not like last time. Joe had the day off and surprised me at work with lunch. ( I have not been eating so kinda hard).Then my sister who lives an hour away came with her 1 and 3 year old children. I love them so much, they make me so happy.
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973741_tn?1342346373
I am so glad to hear that you are having a better day.  We always have bumps in the road no matter what kind of relationship we are in----------- but getting to our mutual destination is the important thing.  I would focus on the positive and enjoy that you are getting along.  Also, we have to remember that we are all learning along the way.  Sometimes we have to do something stupid to learn from it.  I really believe that------ it gives us that deep down wisdom we need to grow.  Joe's grown a lot.  LOL  But if you look at this from the point of view that he also needs to grow and learn where HIS boundary is with other people------ this was a good lesson.  He's learned that it won't be okay to have a friend like that.  Unless you are a part of it-------- it is not okay.  And he learned that lesson without doing anything that you can't forgive, right?

So feel the love you have for him and he you.  And understand that we are all evolving and hopefully becoming better people.  

Glad it was a good day . . . lunch and young kids laughing . . . what is better than that??  Peace to you.
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P.S. to my last post to You an hour or so ago:

"treading Shark Infested waters" is an expression (mine) sorta like an "arrow out of the dark" is an expression (hers).

I don't hate those words (like You said) - in fact I think they are pretty Descriptive of how We feel when Infidelity happens to Us.  I wasn't "picking apart" Her expression but I will say it doesn't REALLY come "out of the dark" (although it may "seem" that way) -actually, its Ever Present, it's ALWAYS there and in spite of OurSelves it sometimes Erupts.  BEEN THERE, DONE THAT - I really do know what I'm talking about here.  You may know something about the Husband's side of it that I don't know but I GUARANTEE I know something about the Wife's side that You don't know!!

AND sometimes We REALLY DO feel like we are "treading shark infested waters" trying to Survive AND Surmount What Has Happened To Us and EveryThing We Once Believed About Our Husbands and Our Relationships!!

TTinKK
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There is so much in this thread I want to comment on - Not enough hours today.  

1st off, Tink, I used to see you as an angry person, but I have developed a lot of respect for you.  You tell it like you see it and don't sugar coat anything.  Brice is JUST LIKE THAT!  And while sometimes, it hurts people's feelings, sometimes you have to be presented with a point of view that you're missing.  Brice talked to me about his adoption on one of our first dates.  He was angrier then, and his attitude totally changed when we were faced with the prospect of being infertile, and having to consider adoption ourselves.  We ended up having 2 natural children, but if our issues had prevented that, we would have adopted.  I was born to be a Mom.  I realize now sometimes I was a Mom first, and not enough of a Wife, and that may have made Brice feel less loved and appreciated.

Second off, Lovemykids, I'm so sorry for your experience.  It is ABSOLUTE transparancy that is helping Brice and I.  He lets me see his phone, all his eMails, and doesn't even go on facebook unless I sign him on and stay in the house.  He doesn't have his password and I change it periodically.  Joe needs to understand that even the appearance of something less than forthright can cause those emotions to bubble up. Sometimes there's a trigger, like the other day, Brice and I almost got in a fight because he shortened your name to "love" on this forum.  Usually, however they just come out of nowhere. I don't want them to, I want to have nice times with my husband and our new-found passion for each other, but sometimes, stuff just bubbles up - an arrow in the dark is exactly what it is.  Usually when I'm alone - I have a 1 hour commute in the middle of the night - and that's when it happens most.  I leave work feeling ok, and an hour later, I come through the door and wake him out of a sound sleep to interrogate, berate and verbally abuse him.  (BTW, any suggestions for how to fill my mind during that time would be helpful.  Maybe I should get XM radio again . . . . )

About "playing the victim" ~ Yes, I am the victim.  But I work with children and adolescents that are victims of the worst kind of neglect and mistreatment.  Children who have no homes, no families, who are wards of the state because their parents are in jail or are otherwise incapable of caring for their children.  Parents who have been court ordered to stay away from their children, even if this society where the court system sees the 'home' as the best in almost every case - even when 'home' is on the streets or in church shelters with drug users and child molesters.  What's one of the first things we work on with these kids?  With much compassion and support, we try to help them feel empowered, to lose the victim role so they can be whole and move on, and hopefully never victimize another child, which is a common pattern.  

So, yes, I understand that BEING a victim is beyond my control.  Continuing to live and act and feel like a victim is absolutely detrimental to my recovery.  I'm a long way from letting go of the 'victim' in me, but I will get there.  

Brice has been wonderful.  He does accept responsibility - rarely does he try to justify it.  Sometimes, I want to justify it, too so I don't have to accept the fact that my perfect husband made a choice to break my heart and trample on our marriage vows.  He even, (most likely) planned to walk out on me and our absolutely blameless kids to live in a fantasy world that he and the other woman had created.  

But he's back now, and working so hard to make the rest of my life as full of joy and love as possible. In the past, I have been able to provoke him into yelling back at me - but the last time, he just backed off and said -"I'm going to take all you got, baby."   And it took some of the wind out of my sails.  Totally put me off balance, I continued, and eventually got him to yell back, but in hindsight, I really appreciate his effort ;)  

Specialmom - you're idea is fabulous.  A month ago, Brice came up with the idea of the "Thursday 3"  Thursday is his "Monday" and my "Saturday" so I'm home alone while he's at work.  He sits down during his morning break and eMails me 3 reasons why he loves me.  It's really helpful.  I look forward to it all day Wednesday, and I know it keeps us both focussed on our relationship and why we got together in the first place, as well as our future.  

I never knew how hard this could be, and will never tell a friend to "just leave him" when a husband or boyfriend cheats again.  I have done that in the past, and was always amazed when someone wanted to stay.  But I NEVER expected it to be me on the receiving end of an infidelity.  We have too much, 20 years of loving each other, 18 years of marriage, 2 kids, and most of all, 20 years of being best friends.  

If I can ever let go of the pain of the betrayal, and relenquish a reasonable amount of trust, I know Brice and I will have a fabulous future togeter.  Maybe better than if we had not been through this.  

I truly wish the best for all of you, and appreciate your input, and the opportunity to vent on this forum.  

Thanks!  Let's all HANG IN THERE!  
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You are a Good Woman. I am so touched by Your words. You probably will not TOTALLY lose the Pain of betrayal (simply because it's impossible to "forget" what we experience) but maybe You will be Stronger for it.  My Heart is Heavy for You to have this to contend with but I think You will Surmount it - I think You really, really will be okay.
My Best To You!!
TTinKK
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I am truly the luckiest man around.  Dee Dee, Honey, thanks for all of the kind words above.  That means alot to me and makes me want to work even harder.

I love you.

To the rest of you, sorry I went and got a gushy.  I promise I wont do it again!
brice
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I for one am glad you got all gushy. It actually helped me see things through Joe's eyes. Thank you.

Bridget
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Well, Girls ~ Now you can see why I'm hangin' around!  Brice is a keeper :)  
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Yesterday was a wonderful day and this morning when the alarm went off we did not want to get out of bed. It is at this time I feel the most secure, when I wake up in his arms, knowing at that point nothing can touch me, but then the day begins. Joe goes off to work, I get the children off, hit the gym and then to work. Dee Dee your right. I found this last year and once again that the times I am alone driving back and forth or running, whatever it may be, I feel the hurt and then the anger comes. I am not angry today, not so much hurt either just annoyed. When Joe is with me I feel content. When we are apart I feel vulnerable. I got through it once before, I will again. This time is nothing like the first in his actions ( well maybe a bit) but the betrayal feels the same. Joe has been great. Very supportive. I try not to show how weak I feel in front of him because I know it hurts him to see me that way.
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Bridget,

It sounds like we're living kind of parallel lives :)  

I am making a mix CD of songs that pep me up and make me sing along to help with my middle of the night drives.  I may also try some books on tape from the library - but I'm afraid if they have any questionable subject matter, it may spin me out.  

You know, it might help to let Joe know just how deep your feelings go - he may see your "strength" as indifference.  Just a thought.  

Hang in there girl!  I'm right there with ya!  
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I know what you mean about content for the longest time I could not play clue with my 9 year old because of the Scarlett character ( that was the girls name ) It would put me in a bad mood. This time It was just a friend, nothing going on but it was the secrecy that got to me.
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Except now Brice and I just had a huge fight.  I get so upset when I think about the fact that he may have actually been planning a future with her.  Probably was, he says he doesn't really even know, and that's why he's in therapy and I have to accept "I don't know" as an answer.  

I'm so sick of this.  I want me to be me again, and not just this big mean mad puddle that I seem to become every time I have a day off.
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I'm Sorry You're Going Thru This.
You said You want to be You again...You will Never be Who You Were.  This has Forever changed things.  What has happened has changed who You thought He was & also changes who You thought You were.  Before, You could never have known what this would be like - now You know and it's not Pleasant, or Easy, or even Good!!  (FOREVER CHANGED!!)  It's sorta like a death - things will never be the same again.  That doesn't mean that You won't get "past" this but it will be "different" from here on than You thought it would be before.  There is no easy path through this.  "Part" of the problem is the "injustice" You feel  that he had the Control & the Power to change Your life without Your consent, this Person who You Loved and Trusted did this!! - this Enrages Us & NO ONE deals well with rage.  You are not to be faulted for having these feelings.  Sure - You don't want them, but You are not SuperHuman and You Are Not Going to Avoid Them.  It's simply going to happen - it's another price You have to pay for what He did AND it's the price He has to pay for what He did!!  
You are NOT a big, mean, mad puddle - You are simply a human being whose instinct is to fight when all Your Life, Your Faith, Your Love, Your Belief, Your SAFETY has been threatened.
I feel Your Pain here & I wish I could ease it.
TTinKK
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Thanks TtinkK

I will probably get electrocuted 'cuz I am soaking my keyboard with tears . . .

I sat down and tried to sew today, a hobby I had picked up about the time his affair started - actually started earlier, fell while roller-blading and put away for several months - but just sitting down at my machine made all the bad feelings come back, 'cuz that's what I was doing with myself while he was chatting with her and planning their get together(s).

I would offer him attention, but he was often too tired, so I would stay up and sew while he went to bed.  Or he would want to go to bed so early, and I would go in until he was asleep and then get up and sew.  But I feel like somehow, that woman who was at the sewing machine was the one who was cheated on.  I just can't bring myself to finish my project.  

And I really want to.

  I think I may be too damaged to ever be any good to him, or anyone else as a wife again. I feel like I should not stay home alone on my days off anymore, as that's when I go the craziest.  (except for when I'm at work, or when I'm driving, or when I'm watching a movie, or reading a book . .. )  I am afraid for my ability to be a good Mom when I have these horrid mood swings.  

Ugh!  I hate this!
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I know where you are. I would not allow myself to be alone. I volunteered where ever I could on my days off. Or my best friend would come over and we would watch movies or what ever so I was not alone. I did not believe people when they said over time you would feel better. I did and do. Yes this has changed me, I am no longer the person I was before, I am not as trusting but I am also better for it if that makes sense. Even this last incident, you know what I feel I'm dammed if I do and if I don't so I am doing to do things for me now. If I want to go out with the girls I go, The past 12 months I spent all my time with Joe so he would not feel I was neglecting him and guess what, he still craved attention form someone else, so it is his issue not mine, yes it affects me but I am not going to  be a prisoner to his needs and emotions while I sacrifice mine.
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Amen, lovemykids!!

In spite of how this turns out - You really DO need to take Your Life back!!  AND - He needs to know You are going to do exactly that!!  You once depended on Him for Your Happiness & He blew it.  He needs to know that You are in charge of what You intend to do with the Rest of Your Life.  I'm NOT saying I think You should leave - instead I am saying You need to take charge of Your own Happiness - whatever that turns out to be.

Good Luck and I'm Hoping the Best for You
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Not having such a good day with my thought process. I still can not figure out made him think that it was even ok to start talking or texting another woman once again. When I go back and look at records it was him initiating contact not her and many times she just ignored it and did not answer.Well not may times just the last day all the rest were on work days but the last was on saturday 2 weeks ago. He messaged her 3x and she did not answer. Finally her bf did and said to cut it out. Joe said he was texting her to tell her that they could not talk anymore, but I have no proof of that. I guess I do not know y I need it, it is what it is and it is over but he says there was no emotional connection but then Y contact her on the weekend, it was not work related and we were not fighting. HE says it was just friends and he knew it was wrong, and he is sorry and it will never happen. so i guess i should settle for that but i need to know Y!
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OH gosh, LoveMyKids!  You sound like me.  Checking phone records, plotting them out on a calendar . . .  ugh.  But I truly believe Brice is done with it..  I know he is.  
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Not to freak you out or anything but that is what I thought too. asnd look what happened again.
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Im sorry that any of you are having a tuff go right now.  Lovemykids465, even with me being a man, I cannot figure out what Joe was doing there either.  I understand the need to be able to tell your story, but I wont be telling mine to any other female unless she is my counselor/therapist.

I understand my boundaries.  I am 100% transparent.  Dee Dee can check up on everything I am doing.  I am in one of 3 places at any given time, or in transport to one of those 3 places....home, work, or the gym.  I am being supportive.  I am doing my best to be understanding.  I am telling the truth.

The simple fact of this matter is, I love my wife and am in this for the long haul.  I regret what I've done to my wife and my marriage, but I am doing evrything that is requested and suggested, plus some other things that arent.

If I cant keep my marriage, if there is too much damage, I take full responsibility.  But I know my wife better than anyone.  I know that when she sets her mind to something, she will get it done.  She is far stronger than she's ever given herself credit for.  She has more fortitude and drive than anyone Ive ever met.  

PTSD and its symptoms are a monster.  Contrary to what some guys think, the hyper-vigilance is the least of my concerns, simply because I am not hiding anything.  I prefer her to be hyper-vigiliant....she can always check on me.  

She/we are on the verge of beating this.  She is keyed up on what is real and what is the PTSD conjuring up things that arent true.  Now we need to both get the tools to be able to address this.  The truth is what matters.  That past has happened, and no matter how much I want to take it all bck, I cant do that.  What we can concentrate on is the present and the future.  We can concentrate on helping each other through this.  What we have to do is put us first.  I know that the past cannot be erased, and maybe saying to concentrate on the future is easier than it really is.  But I do know that numerous people have survived this.  Many people have gone through this before us, and many of them have survived.  It is doable.

I want my marriage, I want Dee Dee to be in my life forever.  If I cant have that, I imagine I will live on, but know that I will do it alone.  I dont care for anyone else, and I will not allow myself to care for anyone else.  I cant risk doing that.  I know by staying in my marriage that I WILL NEVER let her down again.  
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Joe was and is transparent too. I have all his passwords and can check any time. He knows that. He even knew I check the phone record. So he knew I was going to find out, that is what I can not understand. He said he did not feel at the time it was wrong b/c it was not the same as last time, and I understand that, but part of him had to know it was wrong or he would not have deleted it off his phone. He said he did b/c he just did not want to have to answer to me all the time, but My thought it you play you pay and yes, you do have to answer. I understand he feels like he is under a micro scope and he was then I eased up but now he is again.  I am just afraid that it was not like last time but definitely headed in that direction, He said no. But if you play with fire you eventually will get burned. I start therapy again on Tuesday. It can not come soon enough for me. Around him I am fine and I act like it does not even bother me, I even choose to go out with out him when I know he has been waiting all day for us to spend time together,  just to prove to him that I do not need to be coddled ( yet I do it kills me not to be with him) and also b/c I know it bothers him and I want him to hurt a little bit.
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You shouldn't have to Act like it doesn't bother You.  You shouldn't Feel like You have to try to Prove anything.  It should be on Him now to Prove something & that should include not having any Secret Conversations with some girl who's crying over problems with her fiance !!  and "a bit flirty in the beginning" !!
If He doesn't like living under a microscope, well then, He shouldn't have done anything to cause You to be Suspicious. It kinda goes with the territory now & that's the consequence. Any one with 1/2 a brain knows that having an affair is going to Change the Dynamics between You and Your Spouse !!  It's His job to MAN-UP and take "it" WHATEVER "it" happens to be - You do the Crime, You do the Time - that's what it comes down to.  Let's not Forget who the Real Victim is here & You have every Right to expect (even INSIST) that He not have any kind of contact with a woman that He doesn't want You to know about.  It's because of Him that Your Faith & Trust is Fragile to begin with - He needs to do WHATEVER it takes to re-build that.  
(it's also normal to want to hurt back - it's called Self-Defense)

(It would be a Good Rule for All of us to never DO or SAY ANYTHING with ANY other person  EVER at ANY TIME that we would not do or say if Our Spouse were Standing right next to Us Observing and Hearing Every Word !!)

Regards,
TTinKK
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so true. Guess I am just having an emotional day. One day I am fine and the next not so good. Ugh I hate it. I know I can not be ruled by my emotions b/c that is just giving others power over me!
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Love my kids, it is really creepy how much we think alike . . . .

I really appreciate everyone's support in here.  

Brice and I discussed/fought over the tiny details of this situation for 5 straight days. (I had a med change, may not have been the right one).  Then I wrote him a letter, and promised him 24 hours of no discussions.  That went well.  It helped that I had to work for 14 hours that day, but I think that might be my new plan - borrowed from the 12 step programs - One Day at a Time!  

If I can just get through 1 day without a major meltdown, maybe the anxiety will eventually subside.  

The thoughts, questions, sadness and anger are still constantly there, I'm just trying to deal with them differently.  

I've been trying to think before I ask a question:

1.  Will the answer matter, one way or another?
2.  Might the answer hurt my feelings?
3.  Has he already answered this question, and I'm just having a hard time accepting his answer?  
4.  Am I asking this question because I need the answer, or just to make him squirm?  

Anyway - I'm going to try to stick to this plan for a while.  See if it eases me into a place where the questions aren't there all the time.  

Good luck to all of you!  Good Things WILL Happen Today!
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Wow I missed so much.  I've been where both you ladies are at and believe me when I say it does get easier.  You will eventually get to a place where you don't need any questions answered and you can just live your life.  I'm not saying it will go away for good but it won't be as intense and it won't consume your every day thoughts.  
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You are both so right. I was there once. Dee dee you have a good idea here. I was going to do the same today but realized I have my first session tomorrow with a new therapist so I may have to talk about it. We had a good day today. Joe took off work so we could take our son to the airport. I woke up determined not to let eat at me today. So we got up and went. I was very quiet but I was very tired, Kinda sad to see my son go ( but kinda glad at the same time, one week with him home again was more then enough) and also a bit stressed b/c Joe was not in the best of moods, due to finances. So on the trip home I was just sitting quite. After about 20 mins into the ride home her looks at me and says What the Hell is your problem today. Totally shocked me, I asked what he was talking about He said I had an attitude and was sulking. So not true, I told him no, tiered, sad to know my son may be going over seas in about 9 months and a bit nervous due to his mood, He said he is always on pins and needles with me. I know he is , I told him, yes yesterday I was having trouble but did not show it to him. I was very caring and attentive toward him all day even though it was killing me inside. The only time I wasn't was when we went to bed and he wanted to be intimate. I just could not bring myself to do it. He brought that up how I was turning into an ice queen. I said well that seems to be all I am good for and you need to go to other woman for your emotional needs. He started to cry. But I did not feel sorry like I usually do. I just looked out the window for the next hour. We had to stop by the bank and turn in some paper work I sat in the car. When he came out he apologized for his attitude said it was all him. I said ok and just let it go, We went to breakfast and then we drove to a state park got out of the car and found a bench and sat and talked for an hour. It was good. I told him how I was feeling. ( this was before I read DeeDee's post) I asked questions again knowing I would get the same answer IDK but then thought what if he gives me another one, one I really do not want to hear. I am so glad I go tomorrow. Thank you very much both of you.
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