CIO (crying it out) method?

So I'm at my wits end.Juliana (4 months)wakes me up like 4-5 times a night.If its not that she's hungry its for her paci.Sometimes I'm fine with waking up,but there are times that argggg! I know all kids are diff & believe me ,with 3 kids I know.It's just that Juliana being the baby has gotten used to getting what she wants,when she wants it.And gets picked up at a whimper.Of course by her bro & sis & especially Daddy.
Well yeah,but while there asleep....I have to get up 4-5 times a night & then wonder why I'm a zombie during the day?O.k I'm ranting.......Long night..lol.
My question is.....have you guys tried CIO?Is she too young?Is she getting spoiled? I know this is a con traversal subject but she cries while held anyways.Put her down she screams.Then picked up happy.....for a sec,then cries again.
So last night is the reason for this post,I let her cry it out last night.She cried...hysterically for 30 minutes...which seemed like FOREVER.I picked her up changed her,tried to feed her & then put her down again.Cried again for another 20 minutes.She was sweating by then.I picked her up,took of her jammies,left her in a onsie & she was out.Till the next feeding.
I don't mind getting up to feed her,if she's hungry I WILL feed her.I don't mind getting up for that,Its her falling asleep in the first place.5 of my friends babies have slept through the night since 2 months!!!! No feeding nothing.I don't know just need advice ASAP.

[AndiJ78]

She is too young, she is too young to be "spoiled" and she is crying because she NEEDS attention and comfort. Not all babies sleep through the night that early and I am willing to bet your friends have embellished a bit of their "sleeping through the night stories"

[Me2mommy2b]

Oh hon.  The CIO did NOTHING for us.  All it did is upset us (the parents) and made her throw up!  It seems that everyone around me has no problem with their babies falling asleep (yeah, right).  She needs your comfort and she will start sleeping through the night eventually.  Sorry I have no advice for you.  I'm not the one to give it out since DD slept through the night from 4-6 months, that's it.  She's now 14 months and still wakes up at least 2 times a night.  I'm hoping that it'll change eventually.

[kris123]

My dr told me to do the CIO - screw him - some do it some don't.  I just can't let little Ryan cry like that.  Some say it works, some don't.  I heard that you can't spoil a baby that is 4 months old.  My daughter didn't really sleep through the night until she was almost 2.  After that she would go to bed on her own and fall asleep.  Ryan like to get up 2-4 times a night and he will be 6 months on Dec. 19

[girliegrl1723]

i can't do cry it out. i really haven't even tried. i feel your pain though, my son was NEVER a good sleeper and around 4-6 months was the time when he was the worst. i work too and i went in many days with half a brain as i didnt get any sleep the night before. its rough i know. i stuck it out though, went day to day like a zombie and have to say that now, at almost 11 months old, edward is MUCH better with sleeping. he goes to sleep on his own now (no rocking required) and usually sleeps through the night. if he gets up at all, its only once, and he goes right back down. so, just hang in there. it will get easier as she gets older. this is a tough time for them with growth spurts and teething. i think the longer you let them cry, the more worked up they get and the harder it is to put them back down. good luck.

[dreamreader76]

My son isnt a baby anymore, but I definately remember this!!! I tried this method. It didnt really work. Eventually, babies WILL fall asleep with CIO. But how long is the question.I found a balance. I let him cry until I heard the type of cry that meant "I am NOT falling asleep mommy!!!! Come get me or I am gunna make everyone miserable!" Sometimes he would cry for 5 or 10 minutes and Id leave him be to fall back asleep and he was fine. Other times you just have to get them. The bottom line is that you know your baby best and only you can know when he is just stirring for a few minutes or when he needs to be picked up and consoled. Trust your own instinct hun. Good Luck

[have 2 kids]

I definately think there are different type of cries.  If mine were fussy I'd leave them be for about 10 minutes.  If their cry was intense I'd get them up.   As a parent you can distinguish their cries.  My daughter was a great sleeper.  My son gave us many sleepless nights.  No matter what  we did at times he just wasn't comforted.    

[deanne11]

I posted a few questions yesterday and mine wasn't answered but this helped alot.  I am at wits end with a 7 week old...LOL, that sounds funny after reading this.

My little Jake always wants to be held.  At night that is.  During the day he'll sleep alone fine but not at night.  I am up every 1.5-2 hrs with him.  And he just wants to nurse...not to eat though....binky doesn't work, he wants Momma....finally last week I caved and slept with him on my belly....bad idea.  Not only is it unsafe, dangerous for the baby but it's become to comfortable...I wasust so exhausted I didn't know what to do....

Any advice, thoughts?  Why does he have so much trouble at night versus day sleeping?

[AndiJ78]

They are still developing their rhythm, try not to fret. I spent a great deal of time with a baby sleeping on my chest during the day and co-slept at night. Sometimes I would even sleep with them on my chest at night for a spell.

7 weeks is so young, they need that comfort with mommy. Suckling is a huge way to get that and to maintain that closeness. It is exhausting being a mommy in the beginning, but you are allowing your baby to get a great start by being there at their beckon call. It develops and promotes growth, both emotionally and physically.

[deanne11]

Thanks for the advice, I don't mind sleeping with him but everyone including Daddy says I'm spoiling him....I'm more worried because it's not safe,  the scary thing is, he sleeps on his belly too, on me that is... or his side.  That is how he is most comfortable, and I'd never put him on his belly alone....he just can't seem to sleep good on his back.

Well, I'm listening to you guys...he's not being spoiled but you answered the same about a 4 month old...so when is the cut off?  6 mos?  a year?

My DD was so good about sleeping but this guy wants Momma 24/7

[have 2 kids]

Sorry. I missed that the baby was only 7 wks old.   My son was closer to 6 months when I started letting him cry some.

[AndiJ78]

You know, sleeping on you is not all that unsafe if you are awake of course. When you both are sleeping it depends on where you are.

[mysty2001]

she is old enough to know you will go back in 30minutes and see to needs...
if you are sitting around waiting to pamper she can read you like no other - she is intuned
if you want to cater to her fine BUT if you choose not to
THEN I don't think she is too young - make sure her needs are met - then BE FIRM - i know thats hard for some to do - BUT it is magic - one night is NOT a book's exaggeration - thats all it takes unless you stand at the threshhold worried
good luck

[AndiJ78]

Yeah, my 5 year old has a hard time telling 30 minutes without a clock so it makes sense a 4 month old would be able to.

[Mozartcowgirl]

omg. shes old enough to KNOW? omh.. CATER? are you serious???  BE FIRM with a 4 month old??

wow.  

i have 7 kids.. some didnt cry when put down.. or in the crib.. some did.. zane is now 8 months old, and hes going through a thing..

i would NEVER just let him cry it out.. when a baby has tears.. or is in distress.. PICK THAT BABY UP!

none of my children have behavior problems.  i go with the flow. i have school in the am. and come home tired.. sure.. i am still a mom.. i do everything normal... then. i get to bed at around midnight.. and yeah.. zane wakes up. so what. this is not a dress rehearsal.  

you arent catering to a child when shes that young. you are taking care of her.

and its not magic.. its a  baby feeling alone and scared.. and giving up.. falling asleep.. still afraid and not having her needs met.

i tried that once.. with my first child.. she screamed for sooo long.. and it just wasnt one night..LOL...

baby dust to everyone. and i hope that everyone is doing well..

[Trialanderror]

I was just going to say the same....30 minutes will seem like an eternity, enough time for a 4-month-old to assume that nobody is there to take care of him.

[BabyHardiman]

Have you read Baby Wise?  If not I recommend you try reading it.  I know for a fact that the  Feed, Awake, Sleep, then Feed cycle works.  Why not give that book a try.. I am reading it now to prepare for my new arrival.  

[AndiJ78]

Not be a witch, but burn that book. He is a quack and his methods have been linked to many cases of failure to thrive. Babies not meant to eat and sleep on our schedule, we are meant to follow their cycle.

[ImmortalOne]

(Just my opinion)

Quite frankly I'm appalled and angry that people are considering using the CIO method with a 4 month old baby (let alone a 7 week old!).  Babies cry for specific reasons - and each reason has a specific cry to it; hunger, attention, diaper, gas... and those are just a few of the basic things.  If it is a constant thing like Colic, then there is something physically wrong and that is out of your control.  However don't allow people to tell you what you need to do as a mother, remember you were given instincts for a reason - to follow them.

There is no reason to leave babies this young to cry for extended periods of time (unless you have gotten so frustrated that you had to put that baby down and take a break for yourself).  You are not "spoiling" a baby by responding to its needs.  More over, it is instinctual to respond to those needs, for a reason.  When you leave a baby to cry they get the message that no one is there for them, and that can effect your bond with that baby later amongst other things, per some studies.  

They are innocent, helpless little people that you have created.  They need you, as a parent, to take care of them completely.  If that means, missing some sleep, then so be it.  That is part of your sacrifice as parents, period.  This is part of being mothers that you signed up for when you choose to have a baby.  This is just the start of the next 20+ years of sleepless nights.  Get used to it.  

[Mozartcowgirl]

i will bring the smarshmallows and hot chocolate.. we can have a burning party.

[ImmortalOne]

I have to totally agree with Andi.  Babies aren't going to run on your schedule, in fact your life isn't yours for the next 2 decades.  What are you going to do if you can't get that baby to sleep?  Give it a dose of Dimatap or Benadryl to make it sleep?  This is rediculous.

[Mozartcowgirl]

its not that it works.... its that the child has become terrorized into feeling hopeless.. alone.. and feels only non empathetic people around him.

i cant imagine .. wow.. im 37 years old. and even I have times when i NEED someone to hold me. KNOWING and REMEMBERING how it feels to FEEL alone and helpless is HORRIBLE. i cant imagine how it must mold the brain of a baby who has no choice but to be put on some stupid schedule invented by some quack.  

venting here... no apoligies .. but.. i just had to say that.  im in shock that someone would even do that to a baby.

[ImmortalOne]

<3 Mozart

I have the graham crackers and the video camera.  Don't forget to dance around the flames nakkid.

[noah07]

My son is going to be six months old. I once had that problem.  Now very few and between of course. What I did at about two months was every time he woke up I would try to cradle him, sing to him rock him, anything to extend his time of feeding by 15min-1/2 hour. Within 31/2 weeks of doing this he went from waking me every 11/2 -2 hours to sleeping from 10pm to 5 am. Than from there it only got longer. I remember the first time he slept until 6:30 I woke up in a panic, since I was so used to him waking me, now he sleeps from 10pm to btween 7:30-10am. depending on the day. Every now and again he would wake up at about 2am and I did do the let the baby cry. The firt time he cried for 8 minutes, second time for 5 minutes.Now very rarely does he wake up and usually if he does, he whimpers for about 2-3 minutes and goes back to sleep on his own. (let me say, you know when your baby truly needs you and you should attend if he's frantic).

Depending on the babies size, feeding habits and other things is if he needs to wake for a feeding. Myself I also had to start my son on solids early as my breastmilk just wasen't enough for him. All he did was it every hour but was getting plenty of food. He double his birthweight by two months old. He wasen't fat or anything like that. Very well proportioned for that matter. Doctor suggested I put on some. Maybe that helped, but he never gets solids past 7pm at night so I'm not sure. And he was actually sleeping pretty good before solids came.

[SeeingSpots]

Andi, I'm with you 100%-- we co-slept with my son for the 1st 6+ months and, surprisingly, neither my dh nor I was ever sleep-deprived *at all*!  My son would wake up and nurse as needed, and NEVER cried during the night-- he was snug against his momma, and could root to find food as his tummy dictated.  We waited until he was already sleeping through the night in our bed to move him to his own room/crib, and have never needed to let him CIO... he's a happy, well-adjusted sleeper now.

Now that he's in his own crib, I sure do miss those days when I use to be able to cuddle up and snuggle with him, nurse him, or have him fall asleep laying on me.  He's now too busy exploring his world to want to be held still and hugged for long... he can feed himself now, and I'm not quite as "necessary".  TREASURE this time with your little one-- it's such a short period in the grand scheme of things for this total dependance on her Mommy.  Even my husband remarked the other day that he misses the days of having our son snuggled up in bed between us, instead of across the hall in his own room.  Try not to think of it as a negative/imposition on you when she wakes you... think of the HONOR you have of being a mom to her to begin with.  There are so many women out there who would gladly get up 4-5 times a night to hold such a precious baby, when their arms are empty instead.

[AndiJ78]

CJ has taken to sleeping ON my head lately : ) But he loves to snuggle his mommy. My two older kids are good sleepers in their own rooms even though both co-slept with me beyond their first birthday. I am thankful they are snuggle bugs and despite all the energy they possess and the running and glee, they still like to spend a lot of time snuggling their mom.

As they get older, they still seek out the comfort that welcomed them into the world. They develop their basic sense of trust very early on and by showing them you are there for them, whatever their need, builds a strong foundation that will last them forever. Babies who's mothers are attentive to their needs demonstrate a more secure bond than those who are allowed to cry it out. It is possible to raise a very secure child and drop everything to attend to them as infants. You cannot spoil a baby. Just as we need things like food, water, and shelter our babies need comfort to survive and thrive. It makes me insane when people say "They just want to be held" as if that is a bad thing. Of course they want to be held, that is comforting. Same with suckling at the breast, it is a basic biological need. Of course they need that, why would we deny them that.

Believe me, after three children in 5 years, I understand how exhausting it is to be up all night and dead on my feet the next day. I swear I have been dead on my feet for 6 years now. But the sacrifice made now pays off infinitely as you raise strong and secure children who know how to trust that their parents will be there for them. Spots said it well, it is an honor and blessing to have the ability to care for and nuture your baby. I spent years thinking I would never have that blessing, now that I have it threefold, you never, ever see me complaining on here or anywhere else about sleepless nights, a sore nipple, mental and physical exhaustion because I knew what i was getting into and ran towards it with open arms and a wide open heart. It will get better, I promise.

[low22]

Don't let any of these women make you feel guilty about considering the CIO method.  I totally understand that sometimes with a baby it gets so intense and exhausting that you'll want to try anything!  If you try the method just do it gradually.  I know you're a great mom and will do what is best for you and your baby girl.  

Even though some of us get frustrated at times because of lack of sleep doesn't mean we don't feel honored to be a mom or that we don't love our babies as much as the next person.      

[AndiJ78]

She seems to feel something is amiss on her own,  something inside telling her what she is doing is not right otherwise she wouldn't have posted here asking for other solutions. We all understand how babies are and can be, but most of us also realize we signed up for this, good and bad.

What's my phrase many of you all love so much....oh yeah...suck it up. I went without saying that until now, but sometimes you find that one person who adds one last comment that fuels that inner fire. Thanks, low, for once again being that person.

Have a swell night everyone.

[nanis]

There will always be the 'know it all moms'.Juliana is not my first.I have 2 other kids.13 & 8.And yes there were times when they cried non stop.Either bc they were sick or colicy.Does that mean I've neglected them? Common,they are the smartest,most lovable snugglers ever.So thanks for the advice.But there is a thing called 'motherly instinct'.And this post was not meant for jokes or harsh judgment.I will still do what 'I' think is right.And that does NOT make me less of a mom than any one else.Or that I dont want to 'put up with it'.I love playing,feeding & yes even getting up at night.
Once again thanx for the drama :P

[BabyHardiman]

Get off your high horese here!!  This book has helped millions of families understand the cycle that a baby needs to become happy and healthy.  A baby should not need a bottle in it's mouth to go to sleep for a nap....  You know what, I am not even going to sit here and deal with this back and forth BS.  I made a suggest to this woman who ASKED for suggestions.  You guys did not EVEN let her respond before you continued attacking.  

Nanis,

I still would like to recommend this book to you and to tell you that I know first hand 5 families that used this book and the methods have produced healthy and happy babies.  I hope you do not think that I would recommend something to you that would harm your baby... that was not my intention here at all... I was merely suggesting what I know has worked for many women.  

[BabyHardiman]

By the way, I am not saying that a baby who needs a bottle to fall asleep is not "HAPPY OR HEALTHY".  I wanted to clear that up right now.  I can't believe some of the people on here and how they made this a running joke on a serious question...  

I am pregnant right now and I do not currently have kids but I do have two little girls that live with us part time (I am engaged to their dad) whose mom used the books methods and these girls are very bright and were not damaged mentally AT ALL.  They still love their mommy and daddy unconditionally even through their divorce.. the girls are 4 & 7 now.  I have seen thousands of pictures of these girls as babies and they were very well taken care of and always got there 90 minute nap cycles in.  We do not have to follow their cycle...

[BabyHardiman]

I know you probably can't do this at night with everyone in the house sleeping, but have you tried classical music during your baby's nap time?  My BF still uses it with the 4 year old.. she loves classical.  We have also played classical for my nephew and he sleeps so peacefully.  I'm just curious if you have tried classical with your baby or other children.  I've never met a 7 & 4 year old who knows just about every classical song that plays.  =)  It's really cute.  We listen to it softly all night... it's really calming.

[ImmortalOne]

90 minute nap cycles?  Meh, after 3 children, I personally believe that putting them on a "schedule" so you are happy is wrong.  They have their own cycles, and even that gets messed up, I can't imagine trying to make them run on ours.  To suggest that mothers who have multiple children, and therefore obviously more experience than you, are wrong or hypocritical is really something special.  She asked for advice, she got it from people are have children (Mozart has SEVEN!) and have probably tried everything possible.  

[ImmortalOne]

Being "inconvinenced" by your baby is something that should never come out of a parents mouth.  Period.  As I said before, this is what you signed up for... and this is what you have for the rest of your life.  If you don't like it, change your mind now about being a parent.

[peekawho]

This whole thread is pretty surreal.  Babies are unique, have their own particular habits and cycles, and they should be treated as the individuals they are.  

[mslkpage]

Nanis, read the book and decide for yourself. In fact, read as much as you can on the the subject. You're certainly not a bad mom for asking about this, but it seems to be one of those topics that can't be rationally discussed here.

And anyone who knows low22 knows that she's nothing but sweet and caring. I don't think sticking up for a friend means you're fueling the fire. Or maybe it depends on who you're siding with?

[Me2mommy2b]

Take it easy, will ya?  No need to be using the 'f' word.  Everyone has their own opinion and like nanis has stated, she'll still do what she thinks is right.  It's her baby and she's the mother so she'll use her motherly instict to follow through with what is right.  I would like to mention though that most likely you will not follow that book 100% of the time.  I have read 2 books and I knew what we (as parents) and DD can handle (whether it's putting DD on a certain schedule or CIO).  When you have the baby, you'll know what I'm talking about.  BTW, DD did not have ANY schedule until she was about 8-9 months.  Was I critisized for it by my in laws?  Heck, yeah!  But I knew that following her schedule was the right thing to do for us (not to say that other mom will be happy with it).  She's now 14 months and there are clear signs she gives when she wants to eat, play and sleep.  It's a learning process...having kids.  Reading books are great but I learned that they most likely will do nothing when you actually have the kids.  Good luck :)

[BabyHardiman]

You are right...

I will read my book and I will implement the book into my life... I will be a happy mommy sleeping 8 hours a night (can't wait to get the smart replies from that comment, I am sure they will flood in from all the "real mommies" because you know I am just an imposter because I am only pregnant and have NO experience).  My bf has had 3 daughters that he used the cycle with and they all prospered from it, their mom, dad and other sisters, the whole family... so yes, you are right, I will do as Nanis said and do what I think is right as well in my childs life.  

[AndiJ78]

Good luck with that, seriously. And I didn't see where anyone said she was a bad mom. At least i know I never said she was a bad mom. I said I understand the frustration. And i pointed out that developmentally it is not appropriate to use the cry it out method on a baby that young. It simply is not a good idea. I sense that the baby is reacting preemptively to something they know is going to stress them out, hence the reaction before laying down. The baby doesn't sound like they peacefully drifted off to sleep, it sounds like the baby finally succombed to exhaustion.

www.askdrsears.com has some great advice on sleep problems. It sounds as if nanis's baby may be along the lines of the high need infant, much like T. A baby like that requires a slightly different routine and that is also addressed on the Ask Dr Sears web site.

And baby-whats-your-name, having a baby is much different than talking to someone who has one. You will understand when you have yours. Not a slam, just a fact.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/07/14/the_odd_body_crying/

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=a1a74c84-c59d-414d-bbb7-3860fee988f1

http://www.ezzo.info/Articles/chickering.htm

"American Academy of Pediatrics guidelines are contained within Ezzo materials. (For further information, compare the media alert issued by the American Academy of Pediatrics from April 20, 1998, dated 4-20-98 AAP Addresses Scheduled Feedings Vs. Demand Feedings and Gary Ezzo's Myths and Misconceptions - Babywise Authors Set the Record Straight.) "Babywise" is the first infant parenting guide that the AAP has publicly recommended against.

Delayed growth, lowered milk supply (see case studies linked below) when breastfeeding, Failure to Thrive, attachment disorder, and other concerns have been connected with Babywise and other parenting materials authored by Gary Ezzo. [1]"

[Mozartcowgirl]

all i have to say about what you said to me baby hardiman.. is this...  when you have given birth.. and are once again at home.. your views just may change.. i can guarantee it.  its nice for us all to have opinions.. and its great that we can all voice them here..

I have alot of experience... I had parents who used this "freakish" method of letting ME cry myself to sleep.. and they continued it for years.  I dont give a dagnabbit billy goat that you think you are going to follow through with this proceudre on your child.. ( the CIO method)  just remember that the way you feel now .. will be totally different when its actually "that time"  you dont even KNOW your babies personality yet.. how can you say that you already have a plan? LOL

its just as true as going to all those lamaze classes... doing all the right things when you are pregnant. and then something totally different happening when the time comes.

you dont know .. NO ONE DOES>. take it one day at a time.
i still think the CIO method is a quack.
i never said allowing babies to be bottle fed at night was good. where did you get that in my message? LOL.

yeah.. i do have 7 kids... i have experience.. so do most of the women here.. you should listen !! we arent trying to **** you off for goodness sakes..

and like someone else told me a while b ack.. its not your life anymore. its the babies.. suck it up!

take care!! baby dust and hugs to everyone..

[BabyHardiman]

"And baby-whats-your-name, having a baby is much different than talking to someone who has one. You will understand when you have yours. Not a slam, just a fact."

I am so done with your BS... I will avoid any posts you reply to.. I'm sick of your meaness... get a life lady!!

[BabyHardiman]

It is soo easy to find C R A P on the internet to copy and paste to make a point.  I'm not going to entertain you with this.  You are one of those people who MUST for the love of life have the LAST word.... so you can have it.. I'm done with you and your negative attitude, I don't need the added stress in my life.  I don't care how many of you people post how "irrational" I am being to AndiJ78, at one point I could not understand why people were harsh with her but now I do understand fromt the last couple of threads I have added to that she was involved with.  Yes, she has some very valid points and I have learned from her.  I am over this and I am over her drama that she causes because she thinks that she knows it all.  She knows what is best for the world.... yes, I am going Global.  I will be the one to stop this right here right now.  I will avoid her from this point out.. I can do that.  Good Luck Andi.

  

[rubyolivia]

I hate MedHelp maternal forum anymore.

[BabyHardiman]

http://www.keepkidshealthy.com/reviews/parenting_books/on_becoming_babywise.html

Here's a link that shows the pros and cons off using Baby Wise.  Of course AndiJ78 had to post her little links that would make me out to look like an abusing idiot.  So, just wanted to reassure you that I was not trying to guide you in the wrong direction.  You are a mother of 3 so you probably don't need this information anyway, I am sure you are very capable of taking care of your little angel without all of this drama that has taken place on your thread.  My apologies for being one of those who continued to do so....  

[AndiJ78]

The American Academy of Pediatrics is the leading authority on issues related to parenting children. If they are concerned enough to PUBLICLY decry this book, there is something to be said about the dangers of following it to the letter. So was the link you posted supposed to support your point? Because when I read it through completely, I didn't see that it supported it in the least. It was given 2 out of 5 stars and the problems with it were highlighted throughout, including the need to tell your pedi you were using these method so they can watch your baby for growth and development issues. Big red flag that maybe this isn't the book for most parents.

Again, when you have your own children, your perception changes. The links I posted were news stories based on several studies done by reputable organizations and institutions of higher learning. Touting a book that has been the subject of such controversy is going to be called on the carpet. He claims to be a doctor, which he is not, he claims a baby comes out of the womb manipulating its parents, and proceeds to give parents advice that can be extremely dangerous.

Be done with me, no skin off my back. One less person to bicker with, I'll make sure to post all over the place any time I see dangerous advice being given. Feel free to join the entourage of folks who think I am a know it all. If i cared much I may shed a tear...nope, guess not.

[AndiJ78]

My apologies, I lashed out last night when I shouldn't have. Milk is right, I shouldn't have said that. It is healthy to have opposing views. I don't think anyone doubts any other members love for their kids. I just feel that nanis was showing us her distress with using this method and needed to know she was not alone in finding this method difficult. I should have come right out with links and suggestions rather than getting worked up over the CIO method.

Again, my apologies. i would have sent this via pm, but you don't have a profile : ) Oh well, public apologies are fine as well.

[marsxp]

my two cents - women are made moms because they were equipped with an extra sense to know what's good or bad for their babies. we may post gazillion links here and studies may prove gazillion facts but in the end, it is still up to the moms to apply whats best for their babies. as before said, babies are different because they are individuals. so we have to deal with each and every babies differently.

[mysty2001]

babyhard - good luck
I have had three children in last two years
and I have three others - I get my sleep most nights -
I have many siblings and my mother got her sleep too -yes we were on a schedule
you are not a bad mother for implementing a schedule we all need one
by the way if we are basing it on american academy of pediatrics- tTHEY TOTALLY SAY NO COSLEEPING PERIOD - KEEP THE BABY OUT OF YOUR BED - that is way more important that whether or not you use a schedule
good luck

[ImmortalOne]

Wow... baby-whats-your-name...

First off, you totally freaked out on everyone here.  In case you weren't taught; posting in all caps is considered "yelling" by the average internet/forum user.  

Secondly, you stated that your boyfriend had 2 kids earlier.. now apparently he's used this method on 3 kids (and the baby on the way)?  Do you even know how many kids he really has?

"I will be a happy mommy sleeping 8 hours a night (can't wait to get the smart replies from that comment, I am sure they will flood in from all the "real mommies" because you know I am just an imposter because I am only pregnant and have NO experience)."  
-  I'll simply say this... just wait till you have your baby and realize that it isn't as easy as it seems.

I don't think I ever said anyone was a bad mother either.  If so, that wasn't my intention.  I just simply stated that once you have a child, your life isn't your own anymore.  That is something that needs to be understood.  Making it a priority to get 8 hours of sleep a night for yourself is selfish, its a luxury and great if your baby does it on their own but meh, to each his own.

[ImmortalOne]

You're right, the AAP is against co-sleeping.  Why is that?  

Because parents have been known to roll on their infants and smother them.  Because they have been known to get stuck between the wall and the beds and smother.  However the rate of babies who die of SIDS is a hella lot higher than those who die in co-sleeping situations.  Co-sleeping is natural (as is following the baby's schedule, not a child's, a baby's).  Co-sleeping is done by millions of families around the world and has been for thousands of years.

While I never quoted the AAPA or whatever the name is, I do co-sleep, and I don't believe in putting an infant on my personal schedule or one that is convinent for me.   There is also a huge difference in age appropriate "schedules", I can expect a 3 year old to follow a "schedule", maybe even a 2 year old.  At that point they are preparing for becoming school age children and will need a schedule.

My children and my time isn't as precious that I can't attend to what my child needs when she needs it, even if you might call that "Catering" or "Spoiling".  If that means I'm up all night to make her comfortable or happy, then so be it.  There is nothing you can do to be "Firm" with a 4 month old infant.. in any way, not even really when they start bitting while nursing.

[ImmortalOne]

.... I've been looking into this "book"..... this is rather disturbing....

"After babies reach only 6 months of age, parents are instructed to begin punitive disciplinary measures such as "squeezing or swatting" of the child's hands or "isolation" in the crib for "rebellious" infractions including "foolishness," "malicious defiance" or even playing with food on the highchair tray. Ezzo explains to parents that the use of "pain" and "discomfort" can be essential disciplinary tools. After age 2 and a half, children who have a toileting accident are required to clean themselves up."  

?!?!?!?!  And you think this is okay?!?!?!  Wow this guy should've been smacked several times over and over!  Wow, I'm even more appalled at this book...

[peekawho]

OMG.  That's HORRIBLE.  

[ImmortalOne]

This guy talks about "Highchair manners"... and the list goes on.  I'm totally disgusted with this book.  It seems like such an easy trap for parents who are trying to do "the right things", but it seems to be used primarily by the working busy families, which is disheartening.  It's all about getting 8 hours of sleep at night and how to make it better for yourself and supposedly the baby.  But I fail to see how that is, it seems far more abusive than appropriate parenting behavior to me.

[AndiJ78]

You know what, my doc is a member of the AAP and he supports co-sleeping because he knows there is a right and wrong way to do it. The AAP came under fire for their blanket statement and are currently working to re-write their position to more clearly state the safety issues that need to be in place with co-sleeping. As it is written now they are attributing deaths that are not entirely linked with co-sleepingas most parents practice, factors including the co-sleeping adults tox screens are not being addressed. And the smothering deaths that have occurred are NOT SIDS deaths, which is what the AAP initially believed which is why they came out with the position in the first place. Their own research was flawed and now they have realized this. Co sleeping for nursing mothers is supported by many medical organizations and pediatricians, who happen to be members of the AAP. I have yet to find any reputable source that supports Baby Wise or any of Ezzo's methods.

[ImmortalOne]

Even Nadezdha's Pediatrician stated "I have to tell you what the AAP says, but this is what I've done with my daughter and its natural and been done forever".  This is when she found out that we co-slept and have since DD#2.  The family bed is a great thing for us.

[SeeingSpots]

Classic quote from Gary Ezzo's book:  "My way is the only way and all other child-rearing techniques create dependent, needy, unintelligent children."

This book advocates several principles that may be convenient to parents but are dangerous to the health and well-being of infants. Getting an infant to sleep completely through the night and putting them on a feeding schedule leads to infant dehydration, low weight gain and failure to thrive as well as reduced milk supply in the breastfeeding mother. This is backed by research, which is something this book lacks. The American Academy of Pediatrics warns against scheduled feedings in a statement issued in 1998.

In the February 17, 1998 Wall Street Journal Article "Striking Behavior," it was noted that "More than 100 doctors, nurses and other health professionals hope to persuade the academy [the American Academy of Pediatrics] to investigate the Ezzos'  book;  "A Letter of Concern" they signed and sent to the academy last year stated that some of the Ezzos' medical claims are "untrue, misleading or unsubstantiated." Arnold Tanis, a Hollywood, FL pediatrician and past president of the academy's Florida chapter, submitted a resolution expressing similar concerns at the academy's recent Southwest district chapter meeting. The resolution passed earlier this month..."

An example of unsubstantiated advice from the book is as follows: "From birth onward, infant hunger patterns will either become stable and regular or move towards inconsistency. When infants are fed on the PDF plan, their hunger patterns stabilize. The reason for this is that the hunger mechanism (digestion and absorption) operates as if it has a metabolic memory reinforced by routine. If Chelsea's feeding periods are regular, she will establish a hunger metabolism that is stable and predictable. For example, if her mom feeds her at approximately 7:00 A.M., 10:00 A.M., 1:00 P.M., 4:00 P.M., 7:00 P.M. and 10:00 P.M., Chelsea's hunger synchronizes with those times. This happens only where feeding periods are routine...." [BW 2001, pp. 48-49]  **There is NO evidence whatsoever that a baby can develop a metabolic memory, nor does evidence support scheduled feedings as being beneficial or healthy.

This book also advocates Controlled Crying, a method where parents allow their children to cry for longer and longer periods of time before comforting them. The Australian Association for Infant Mental Health had this to say about this method in a paper issued in 2002 and revised in 2004, "AAIMHI is concerned that the widely practiced technique of controlled crying is not consistent with what infants need for their optimal emotional and psychological health, and may have unintended negative consequences...Infants whose parents respond and attend to their crying promptly, learn to settle more quickly in the long run as they become secure in the knowledge that their needs for emotional comfort will be met."

(Side note- IO and Andi, my ObGyn, my General Practitioner AND our son's pediatrican all have admitted to me that they co-slept with their kids.  I'm also a member of a "Mommy & Me" group of women in my area, and all but 1 of the mommies co-slept or are currently co-sleeping!)

[ziggysgrl0724]

I havent posted on this thread because I thought most did a good job of saying what needed to be said..but i have to ask you....is that an excerpt from the book in question?  That is prob. the most insane thing I have ever read when it comes to taking care of an infant.  I cant believe someone could read that and see fact and think thats a good idea...if thats how you want to raise your children, then why even have children...wow....thats nuts!!!!!  i know you dont support that but just had to ask where you got it from....I am kind of in shock from it....

[Mozartcowgirl]

i have seven children.. yeah yeah yeah i know.. i have said it before.. but.. the whole co sleeping thing.. i have co slept wtih them all.. they are all ok .. it was vaccinations that killed my son richard.. funny ehh? ha  ha.. how strange that the govt says.. SHOTS GOOD!! CO SLEEPING BAD! OOooOooOOooooOOoo

had to yell that. sometimes. i even go outside.. naked.. with that book.. and run around my house. with zane on my shoulders.. adn the other kids doing a head jerk dance.. while we listen to metallica and we all put our b3eds together and sleep outside.. making smores. and jiggers of wine.

ok someone talk about THAT now.LMAO

[laura1977]

Personally I would never have co slept with my kids.....................mostly cause my husband moves around in his sleep way too much and I didn't want him to roll over on them.  I don't really have an opinion on that subject because I have learned from being a mother that to each their own as long as your child isn't in danger.  There is something though that can prevent someone from rolling ontop of child.  They make a little baby bed thingy that you put between you and your husband and it has sides on it so you can't roll ontop of your baby.

I would like to add that I am not totally against what everyone has said on here, I think if you put all your ideas together it would help out a new mother.  Well.......... maybe not the name calling. lmao

[AndiJ78]

My dh and I have never slept with a baby between us, when I co-slept with our first two, my dh took the couch. With CJ we have a completely different set-up that involves two beds. Again, it is all in how you do it that determines the safety of it. I don't think any of us would have gotten sleep with a baby in the middle ; -)

The product you are thinking of is called a cuddle nest I believe. I haven't ever used it myself, but have seen some great reviews online.

[CYW]

while i was in school in my abnormal psychology class..we learned from my teacher which is a psychologist...has her own practice etc...that...a baby..if they do not have their needs met properly by the age 1 they will hold one of the main elements that a psychopath holds...pretty freaky huh??? because according to erikson i believe....babies go through the trust versus mistrust n to be the cio method is a crock of sh*t....i think cio is for children who are like 4 or so....because they just wanna run the show but babies..they dunno ne better and we dont always know wats wrong...they need to be loved and nurtured...besides babies cry big deal...mine just started this scary cry n it broke my heart...there was nothing i wanted to do more than just huge and kiss him n cuddle him....well neways good luck to you all...

[girlybuff]

4 months old is RIDICULOUSLY to young to be left to cry it out.  And I too know what caps mean.  They only have ONE way of communicating and that's crying.  They don't have the thought process like "Oh no one is coming I should go to sleep".  They only know that when they're crying, no one is coming.  If their diaper is clean and they are fed then they are crying because they want comfort.  America is one of the ONLY societies where we put our children in separate beds and expect them to learn at young YOUNG ages to soothe themselves.  Parenting doesn't stop at night.  Even Ferber has "changed" his original method.
If youmust use the CIO methos wait until the baby is much older, like over a year at LEAST.
Parenting is hard and  yes you're going to be tired and yes we would ALL like to sleep 8 hours a night but guess what, that's NOT reality!!

[girlybuff]

BTW I co-slept with my DD until she was 15  months old.  We never had a problem.  She nursed all night.  I was completely sleep deprived but I did it anyway, sometimes she slept on TOP of me ALL NIGHT LONG.  I finally put her in her crib (that she never slept in until that point) one night drowsy and let her cry for 15 minutes each time before I went to her.  She wasn't screaming like to the point where she was vomitting but she was crying.  It lasted 4 nights and now she goes to sleep like a champ at 7 or 8 and sleeps SOLID for 12 -14 hours.  Note, she was 15 months old before I even contemplated this.

[girlybuff]

Sorry, one more thing, I had a panic attack complete with vomitting and a migraine for all 4 nights.  I think it was harder on me than her but she needed her sleep too.  SHe still doesn't nap more than 20 minutes a day but I will take that as long as she sleeps all night.  

[BabyHardiman]

I knew Co-Sleeping with your infant is a big NO NO with the AAP... but I did not consider these moms bad mothers for wanting to share sweet dreams with their babies even though SIDS is everywhere these days.  I have been fighting with my BF about sharing the bed with my baby he is dead set against it.. he has purchased a very beautiful crib for our little angel that is right beside my bed for the time being.  =)  I was attacked for simply suggesting a book to someone who asked for suggestions.  This book was recommend to me by my sisters pediatrician as well.. he is a very sweet rather large black man with the sweetest eyes I have ever seen who has 6 kids of his own.. we shared a laugh because I pulled the book out of my bag... I did choose him for my pediatrician that is why I visited him to start with was to choose a pediatrician for my little one.  I wasn't out to prove anyone wrong I wasn't out to pick a fight...  I am sure these women have looked at the clock when when their little cried and said "you can't be hungry you just ate 30 minutes ago" and then they are off trying to figure out why the baby is uncomfortable... no book would take away that reality that a baby is not an open book.. they ARE individuals.  I never said the book was magic!!  If I looked hard enough on the internet I could find an article that says that Pinochio is satanic... you can find arguments all over the internet.

I am off to church and I am going to pray for all of us... everyone on this forum that we can stop being so judgmental of each other and come together when a mother is in need.  I will also pray for Isabell... my bf's little girl who is god knows where right now without her sisters and her dad.  I will pray for the life of my friend that was lost last night due to a high speed chase on HWY 15... just because the guys was speeding.. Granville county lost $200 on a speeding ticket and the lives of 2 very beautiful young women due to the high speed chase.  I need to search my heart for forgiveness and try to pry this bitterness out of me.

Happy Sunday ladies.  I hope you all make it to Church safely.  You will be in my prayers.

[decogrl]

Oh how I would love to try the CIO method again, but as other posters said....it all depends on the child.  I had all kinds of fairytale dreams about motherhood....go into labor myself, vaginal delivery, easy breastfeeding, and a pleasant baby who slept through the night.  I got NONE of that.  Everything went the opposite way I hoped.  I have a darling baby girl 14 months who was late, took 3 hrs plus a C-section to deliver, and never latched on to me and I shamefully had to quit breastfeeding after 2 1/2 months.  She had colic has NEVER slept through the night but you know what?  I have accepted that things don't go my way, go with the flow, and yep....being a mommy does mean you will be sleep deprived for a good 2-3 years.  Now that I have accepted that, I have relaxed more, and just hope that one day, (she will probably scare me to death) not wake up at 1:30 screaming her head off .

[girlybuff]

I also  posted when my DD when very young that the CIO method was cruel and unusual punishment for the child but admittedly, I HAD to do it but only after she was able to understand what night night time was.  I am talking about a 15 month old with a vocab of over 20 wods so I know she didn't "need" me for any other reason except she just "wanted" me.
We make plans, God laughs!!!    

[ImmortalOne]

baby-whats-your-name .... Hope your Sunday went well and God answered all your prayers.  I'm not certain when you joined this forum or any form here, never seen you before.  And I'm probably one of the more vocal members of this group, so again, I will put it in simple English so you can understand really well.  That book you are singing the praises for has been considered not only dangerous physically but emotionally and mentally for children.  Period.  If you want to believe that babies cry just to cry, then fine be neglectful.  However maybe you should do more research than just "advice" and realize how many children that "method" has endangered.   ---- For the record, I wasn't "joking" about your family, I was seriously confused and concerned that you don't know how many children your boyfriend really had!  

Seeing Spots .... Thank you for that extra information on that method and how it is viewed!

Ziggysgrl .... That was an expert from a review given by a pediatrician.  I forgot where I found it at, however it talked about the punishment that is started at 6 months of age, which is really disturbing.  Personally I can't help but feel that Ezzo's method's are just a "convenient" form of child abuse.  It's just a way for parents who are too selfish to take care of their children properly to handle being parents.  More over, I'm concerned that the parents who are intending to do well by their children are just endangering and damaging their children with Ezzo's methods.  

girlybuff .... 15 Months is a completely acceptable age to take a child out of the family bed and into their own bed.  At least here in America (which you were very correct in stating about our situations here).  The "Family Bed" is something that is used all over the world, in countries more advanced and with a lower infant mortality rate than the USA (Japan for example).  

I will advocate the family bed till I die I'm certain.  It has been known to be safer for many reasons (being close to the parents in cases of emergency - ie fire) (being next to a parent if their breathing becomes irregular), and it has been known to help fight SIDS.  However there does become an age when a child does need to become familiar with sleeping on their own in their own bed.  

Oh, and before someone jumps on me for that statement... Nadezdha might co-sleep with me, and has her own schedule, but she sleeps just as peacefully in her own cribs and pack-n-play for her caregivers (my mother, her babysitter, her daddy).  

I might be "sleep deprived" (this is just one of my sacrifices I have chosen to make by choosing to have this miracle child) - but she is able to nurse all night if she chooses to, she is kept warm and snuggled to her parents .... and unlike many others I do sleep with her between me and the DH (and by the side that has no wall) (and on my chest), but I sleep "around her" as I call it.  We toss and turn all night (she is just moved by being held to my chest).  Just like I slept around her when I was pregnant: with my knees up only now my hand over behind her back instead of infront of my belly.  Its pretty funny because I'm so aware of where we all are in our little Queen bed, I've smacked the DH in his sleep for getting too close to us.

[jenstam]

Nanis-you do what works best for you. I know you are asking for opinions but every baby and every mother is different. You are not a new Mom and you know what works best. Crying occasionally does not kill a baby, but I definitely would not let her cry for 30 minutes! That is insane. She needs your love and comfort. It will help her feel secure. I think children that are loved and comforted and feel their needs are being met blossom into caring adults who are confident and secure and can love someone else in the same manner. No baby should ever feel scared or alone. No baby should be ignored if they are hungry before their "scheduled" feeding. Brody nurses on demand and is nearly 5 months old. He still has not slept one night through and we co sleep every night. For us, that is the right thing to do. It might not work for others but that is the beauty of parenting. Sleepless nights, exhaustion and questioning yourself as a parent are all NORMAL. I hope you got some suggestions here that helped. If you can weed through all of the controversy (:

Babywatchamacallit-you will hopefully get a grip once you actually become a mother. Until you have gone through giving birth and caring for your own child you cannot sit here and argue with these very seasoned mothers. So quit while you're ahead, will ya? You will find that not everything is black and white once your baby comes. I sincerely hope that you don't raise your child with the stubborness that shows through on your posts. It will be your way and not hers. The truth is, she may be different than you. Will you understand her cues? Or force her into doing what you want for her? Babies cry for a reason. It is our job as mothers to listen to them and to tend to their needs.

That book definitely needs to be burned. I cannot even believe anyone uses this type of parenting. Insane!!

[laura1977]

There is one thing that I will say about having a baby sleep in the bed with you.  There was a baby that died around here, because he rolled out of his mothers bed one morning and fell head first into the trash can beside their bed.  Freek accident yes, but if you choose to do this you must look for things that might cause a freek accident to happen.
There was also another inncident where the father didn't realize the baby was in bed with them and he rolled over on her and killed her, so like AndiJ78 stated, it would probably be best if DH slept on couch so this doesn't happen.

Now on the crying out thing, I personally did this with both of my daughters but to a certain extreme.  I didn't not go in there and check on them I would go in every few minutes, BUT I will say my daughters were fine after a couple of nights of doing this.  
What parents need to realize is they need to have plan that they do with their child EVERY night.  Read a book, take a bath, blah blah blah.  You can't expect your child to want to go to sleep after being played with, so you must start a plan so that they realize it is bed time.  
I will say yes mothers are tired and wore out, but it is also better for a baby if their mother is rested and calm.
People are fighting because I believe the age differences of mothers.  What was exceptable 5 years ago when my daughter was a baby is no longer exceptable now, and that is fine.  
Heck rules changed between the birth of my 5 year old and the birth of my 2 year old.
The Ferber method was in full gear when my 5 year old was born, but it went out when I had my 2 year old.  

I personally believe that a child should be in their crib with just a fitted sheet on the firm mat. no toys and no bumper pads, and baby on their back.  
I say this because there are alot of pregnant mothers on this forum, and I am not going to say it is safe for you to sleep with your child and I am not going to say it is safe for you to have all the different types of bedding in your childs crib, because accidents do happen and I think it is wise for us not to tell someone that it is safe to do so.  If a mother chooses to do so, then that is their decision, but I think telling people that its okay to have a baby sleep between two 150 lb parents in a small bed isn't wise.  

Again I am not saying any mother on here is wrong for any way they handle their child because ultimately your your childs mother and you make the decision, I'm just stating my opinion, and I have a feeling I am going to get my head bit off for it.  lmao

Then there is the other side of things, when I was a baby the cribs were made differently and now you can't use them because the baby could get their head between the slates, and now you can't use a baby pillow, but gotta say I had one.  I lived, but there was a higher death rate of babies then.

Ultimately the best way to keep your child from dying from SID is to NOT SMOKE IN THE HOUSE!!!!  And if you go outside to smoke, put a coat on so it doesn't get all the chemicals into your shirt and then you hold your baby to your shirt.

Babyhardiman is pregnant, and if you all remember how much you tried to learn when you were pregnant, you might start to put yourself in her shoes.  I remember when I was pregnant with my first child, I was so worried all the time about SID and all that stuff.  So, personally I believe she is in the learning process of becoming a mommy, and everyone on here goes through that same stage in their lives so lets not forget that.

Play nice!!!!  :)

[rubyolivia]

Baby whatever...I think it's time you get a clue. When your baby gets here and you realize all your bs is wrong, we will willingly embrace you with open arms and probably won't even say "I told you so".

[tiredbuthappy]

well put Laura. I've been reading this post for the last day now (instead of doing my work...) and I had trouble putting into words my thoughts. I agree that it is a personal decision, and that we all should be able to state our views in a manner that does not belittle another's view. I agree that we should not be telling a pregnant woman that it is safe to sleep with the baby in the bed, since each family is different. And even if the AAP is reviewing their position on cosleeping, it is still not a published view so evidently they haven't come to a conclusion. My point is, we'd drive ourselves crazy following all the guidelines thrown at us, especially because they change so often. therefore, to so vehemently defend one position or another seems inappropriate to me. It seems more appropriate to simply share what we do. As for the AAP, i respect all they say, but to a certain extent i pick and choose. I followed the AAPs vaccination schedule, but i have to admit to having DD spend a couple of nights in bed with me, especially in the beginning. It's kinda like picking and choosing what works for me and my family. So for those of you who cosleep, share your experiences with us and tell us how you do it to make it safe. but we should not go as far to say that it is the best way to do it. and those of you who have tried variations of CIO- again, share your experiences, both positive and negative. perhaps someone here can learn from it. but when it comes down to it, regardless of what people here say, you will end up doing what you feel in your heart is right for your family.

i could sit here and preach that the CIO method is terrible, but i personally have never seen it in action. my dd does not sleep through the night, but is willing to fall asleep in her bassinet and only wakes to eat. i recognize how fortunate i am in that aspect. i'm not sure how she'll be when i move her to her crib, but i can guarantee i will not be trying CIO. i can't stand to hear her cry unneccesarily. and while i respond to all of her cries, i am lucky because she never cries unless she needs something. i don't think she's figured out that she could potentially manipulate me day and night :)

[laura1977]

EXACTLY!!!!!!

Every mother has their own views on what is RIGHT for their child and what is WRONG.  As long as a child isn't in danger then I am okay with whatever a parent decides.  
The CIO method is a bit harsh, but that doesn't mean you can't use it to a certain extent.  I never put our children in their crib and just said see ya have fun crying, but I didn't rush right in and get them when they started crying when they got a bit older.  
I guess I knew different crys from my kids............its a mother thing, and I went by the cry.  

Personally we all are forgetting something too, some mothers get out of control and overwelmed, and if this happens I say put the baby down even if he or she is crying and walk away to another room to cool down for a bit.  That right there is the best advice a mother can give a pregnant woman.  That is how so many babies end up dying, and the best thing a parent can do if they feel like they are going to loose control is put the baby in a safe spot and cool down for a bit.

In the end a mother is going to do what they feel is right for their baby because they know their baby.  My first child had colic really bad, and nothing I did seemed to help.  Those were some long long long months!!!!!  lol

If you co sleep with your baby, then make sure it is safe.  If you decide not to, then thats a good choice too.  I respect everyones opinion and views on how they raised their babies, and hey good for all you mothers that got through the first months of motherhood............. Trust me I know how hard it was.  I also remember being pregnant for the first time and reading books to learn more about it, so Babyhardiman I think you are doing the best thing by reading up on raising a baby.  It's the most challenging thing you will ever do, but also the most difficult.  You figure out what works for YOU and you stand by your decision.

[tiredbuthappy]

That's a good suggestion too- read other books as well, so you can determine which method will be best for you. Perhaps you want to research other methods, not just those that worked for your DH. although i bet when it comes down to it and you're in the throws of things, you won't remember one word of what Dr. Anybody said.

[tiredbuthappy]

oh yea- my last 2 cents-
it's all about temperament. i took a parenting class (graduate level with a published professor) and we learned that children are born with the temperaments that pretty much follow them through life. a baby with a difficult temperament will be difficult no matter what. you can't change the child, but you can change the way you manage the child. for those of you who CIO worked, it's possible that it was so easy because that method is compatible with your child's temperament. For those of you who it didn't work, chances are it would never have worked for your particular child. same goes for cosleepers. if your child goes to his own bed at a certain age with no problems it probably has a lot to do with who he is. and there are countless posts on here from cosleepers who still can't get their babies out of their beds at 3,4,or even 5. depends on the child.
i guess what frustrates me with this forum is that everyone assumes that just because their method works so well for them, it should work for others as well. as i said, i personally would not do CIO and do not feel it's appropriate. that being said, i really suspect that those who did do it and succeeded for the most part didn't have to do it for too long because it worked well for their babies' temperaments. i think the cases where the AAP is concerned is where parents are recognizing that their child is genuinely in distress, hungry, sad, etc...
as for babywise... well i haven't read it so i can't judge. but based on what's been said here, i do not want to read it as i suspect it will p!ss me off.

[laura1977]

hey heres a question...... I remember when my first daughter was young I would try and keep her up till midnight to get one last feeding in thinking she would stay asleep...................WRONG!!!!!  I lost even more sleep and she still got up at 2 in the morning....... lol

[tiredbuthappy]

my dd likes a feed 2 hours after falling asleep too. she's been asleep by 11, so daddy dream feeds her around 1:30 right before he goes to bed (or sooner if she wakes). that feed tides her over til 7 or so. when she's hungry, she's hungry.

[Me2mommy2b]

OMG!  I just read some excerpts offered here from the book.  You wouldn't catch me dead using these abuse techniques.  Like I said, we ran on her schdule her first year of life and we're all still alive.  Who am I to tell my child "you're hungry NOW" or "it's time for you to sleep just b/c the clock says so".  No way, no how.  

[ImmortalOne]

*signed*  Agreed with fully Me2mommy

[Mozartcowgirl]

ok ok k . here.. heather was off center.. she didnt like to be touched.. she still hates in when i get all smushy with her today.. she was an "independant child" gage was all snuggly.. he hated it when anything on his plate touched..even when he was  tot... hes keeps things clean.. still does. and hes 14.. im like. HOLY COW!! your room is clean! he makes boats and planes out of paper.. and plays guitar for zane.. who loves it.. robert is really saracstic.. loves off color jokes.. makes adults laugh liquids out of their nose.. even teachers have to leave the classroom because they laugh so hard they pee their pants. Danial is sensitive and angers quickly.. feels like he is the victim. is soo loving that you want to cry. he is deeply empathetic.. and only wants to make things better. Hannah is a hippie.. no matter where you put her.. t here she is.. grooving out.. she gets along with everyone.. and is always the leader.. she will put her brother in their place.. and shes only 6.  shes beautiful. shes a lady.. and you never question her. you dont want to.. you just want to groove with her.  Zane is peculiar.. he only wants to hear Paolo Nutini, he is obsessed with bathing.. and sings already. he is only 8 months old... and he is the more organized than my 17 year old.. i am waiting for the mess he should make... but he doesnt seem to want to do that.

i co slept with them  all. with the exception of my 17 year old. because when she was a year old.. she up and left me. LOL.. kids are kids.. i have 7 ( richard in hevaen with his grandmother) you could do EVERYTHING the same.. and yet.. they turn out how they want to.  how they are made to.. i have to admit.. i think it was gage that liked sprawling out on the den floor to sleep... no covers.. nothing.. just there.. in this huge open space.
i wish i knew. what makes them soo different.. i mean.. REALLY technically speaking here.. but they are soo cool.  I cannot fathom doing the things in that boook. i really cant..
i have successfully been raising 6 children.. and they are all so different.. i have let them do.. what they are going to do .. even when it might not have seemed the right thing for most..
i think the most important thing here to remember is..

why would a book dicate how we should treat our children when the writer doesnt even KNOW our children?? why are we all being treated like some cattle.. like blind sheep to some retorical slaughter.  

when we are pregnant.. we have NO CLUE at ALL. who our children are going to be.  lets just let them be who they are. not what someone else wants them to be.

[summerlion1123]

lol The first response I read to this was that someone said your friends are probably embelishing their sleep through the night stories. I didn't read any other posts cuz there are too many, but I think that is funny. Trust me, your friends are probably not exagerating, however the heck you spell that. I swear to you that my son started sleeping 8 hours a night in Dec, just a little over a month old. After that he increased his time to 13 hours, while still taking naps during the day. All he did was sleep. He slept so much I worried. I went to the doctor and asked if this was okay. They laughed at me. They looked at me like I was being stupid complaining about a good thing. I wasn't complaining, just worried. They said let him sleep as much as he wants, don't wake him up. OMG what a relief that was, my son woke up every half hour wanting food. Here was the trick... are you ready? The 4 hour schedule. You only feed your baby their bottle every four hours on the dot, do not change it (except at night of course they go more hours because they are sleeping the whole time!).  At first it is hard because they cry the whole time wanting food. The doctor even told me don't feed him anything at night at all except water. I admit I broke down and fed him a bottle anyway, but only every 4 hours still, and he started sleeping 12 hours straight through the night. If you stick strong it works! Well not for every baby but most (perhaps the reason it doesn't work for everyone is the parents don't stick to it). Anyways, that is my experience.

[summerlion1123]

Oh, p.s The 15 minute rule! This really works. If you have done everything (swaddle, feed, comfort, etc) and your child is still crying lay them in bed for 15 minutes. NO more, NO less. I swear after 15 minutes they really do fall asleep! Every time I would worry it wasn't going to work because he would keep crying so long, but at 15 minutes he was passed out. It was amazing!

[tiredbuthappy]

only feed every 4 hours? wow. my dd would scream her head off for the last 2 hours. i know that when i am hungry, i am miserable. i get cranky and sometimes even feel sick. i couldn't imagine someone telling me i can't eat when i'm hungry. not to mention that she probably would have had failure to thrive if i made her wait to eat. i have plenty more to say, but then i'd be a hypocrit cause i have been saying how we should all just share our experiences without judging others...

[summerlion1123]

Wow I didn't expect people to be so ignorant. I feel sorry for you. By the way, he only cried for about 2 days, then got used to it and wasn't hungry until the four hours were up. He always got lots of food, no matter what schedule he was on, and was a lot happier and slept a lot better on the schedule. Oh, and as for failure to thrive perhaps you should have all the facts before you start to hint that people are bad mothers. My son is a big boy and has been in the 80-90 percentile for weight, height, and head size since the day  he was born. He has never gained too much weight and he has never EVER been under weight. IN FACT my doctor is always telling me how perfectly healthy he is, except that he needs to lose the binki. Too bad you can't show pictures on here, he'd make you eat your words.

[BabyHardiman]

I have never in my life read soooo many self-righteous posts.  I have gone from a happy expectant mother to a child abusing animal.  Wow.

ImmortalOne
I shared things from my life that you used as a joke, how does that make you sleep at night?  It's not a question of how our babies sleep it's become a question of how WE sleep at night knowing that we can be so rude to each other.  Does it matter how long I have been a member... everyone has to start somewhere but if you must know I am sure there are ways of finding out.  I have had several private messages from women warning me about you and about several other self-righteous women that bounce back and forth from Forum to Forum because this is your life.  You are not going to run me off, I am here to stay.  And yes, my Sunday was awesome.  Our Pastor read from 1 Samuel 17 the story of David and Goliath.  We also enjoyed the Children's Choir, they sang "Happy Birthday Jesus" which I think they will probably be singing every Sunday until Christmas gets here.  =)  They are so adorable.  

Ladies,
I have a gorgeous family, I have a great life.  I have many things in my life to be thankful for.  I have many things in my life that have brought me joy and have brought me pain.  I am a human being and I am learning life just as you ladies do every single day of your lives.  We change day by day... none of us are the same as we were yesterday.  It's easy to lash out at others.. I know I am hormonal right now but getting better day by day as my pregnancy becomes more of a reality.  The risks of losing my baby is still here due to my medical conditions but my baby is still hanging in there and I am thankful to God above that he has aloud me this opportunity to become a mommy. Should I stop trying to learn because there is a risk of losing my baby?  I say no.  Your typed words on a screen do not make me a bad mother-to-be, they are only typed words on a screen, I know that.  I came here looking for advice and I will give birth to my baby and still come here looking for advice.  I read LOTS of books just as I read the real life experiences of you ladies on this screen every single day.  Does that mean I have to take EVERY WORD I read and implement it into my life and the life of my family?  Because someone makes fun of the number of kids that my boyfriend has does that mean I should be ashamed of my new family and of the number of kids he has.  Mozart has 7 beautiful kids... and I am sure each one is very precious to her and her heart.  I should not have explained the number of kids that my BF has to ImmortalOne, I should have aloud her to continue with her jokes so she could have some form of entertainment... maybe making fun of my situation brought a smile to her face.  

My unborn child is a miracle to me.  I am a great mother, I am a great homemaker, I am a great provider, I am a great volunteer, I am a great daughter, I am a great sister, I am a great person and I have lots of Faith in my abilities.  I would hope that eventually you will send me a private message to try to get to know me personally instead of lashing out and me and making fun of my baby's name within this thread.    

summerlion1123
I think I remember reading in Womens Community that you are a new member.. I may be mistaken.  In any case I wanted to say welcome.  I have been a member for several months now.  If you set up your profile I would like to be added as one of your friends.  =)

[laura1977]

Some babies eat smaller amounts every 2 hours, our first daughter was like that she would only it 3 ounces at a time.  Our second daughter ate more at a time and ate every four hours.

Ladies, every child is different and every situation is different.  My first child was colicy to the worst extreme, and I mean she would cry daily for about 4 hours.  And the one thing I remember was my mother in law making me feel I wasn't doing something right.  The was one of the worst feelings in the world because I did everything I could to calm my child.  My daughter couldn't be passed around at holidays because she would be up all night crying, and so I held her and didn't let anyone else hold it at holidays.  This always made my mother in law so mad because I didn't do things the way she would..... the thing is though she never had a baby that suffered from colic so she wouldn't have known how hard it was.
My point is don't put down mothers because the way they handle their child.  Every child is born with their own personality and every mother must learn how to handle their OWN child, and the best thing a person can do is not make that mother feel like they aren't a good mommy.
Just like no one should put down a pregnant first time mommy for reading different books regarding babies.  
Babyhardiman is excited about having a baby, and I can so relate to her because I also read books before I had my children.  So what if someone doesn't agree with a book she read, just be happy she cares enough about her baby that she is willing to read up on being a mommy.
There are alot of mom's that co-slept with their children, how would you all like to be put down and yelled at because others don't think what you did was safe for a baby?
Other moms may have had blankets and bumper pads in their childs cribs, people could also say you were wrong for that too.
My point is every mom does things the best way they can and we should all be respectful of how we all did things.  This forum use to be a place where people would post their own thoughts about a question, and not even comment about other peoples thoughts.  Now however it has become a big fighting match and I have watched as certain people keep getting attacked over and over again no matter what they say.
I will say that many people have left the forum because it has just become a big joke.  

Just stop putting down eachothers motherly ways, because that is completly hitting below the belt.  Everyones children are loved and cared for and for that all moms should be proud and thankful, and also willing to NICELY give an expectant mommy some of the best advice...... the advice of a fellow mother.

[BabyHardiman]

Tell me what chapter and page this information is on in this book, please I want to read it.


.... I've been looking into this "book"..... this is rather disturbing....

"After babies reach only 6 months of age, parents are instructed to begin punitive disciplinary measures such as "squeezing or swatting" of the child's hands or "isolation" in the crib for "rebellious" infractions including "foolishness," "malicious defiance" or even playing with food on the highchair tray. Ezzo explains to parents that the use of "pain" and "discomfort" can be essential disciplinary tools. After age 2 and a half, children who have a toileting accident are required to clean themselves up."  

?!?!?!?!  And you think this is okay?!?!?!  Wow this guy should've been smacked several times over and over!  Wow, I'm even more appalled at this book...

[BabyHardiman]

I am sending you a PM, please read it.

[AndiJ78]

IO-if it is anything like the one she sent me, just report it directly to MH as I did.

Drama, drama, drama.

[tiredbuthappy]

ignorant? and here i was trying to be nice and carefully chose my wording. why so defensive? i specifically said MY  baby would have had failure to thrive had i considered your methods. i never once mentioned your child, as tempting as it was. MY child was a preemie. MY pediatrician made me feed MY child not only on demand, but we also had to wake her to make sure she ate. i also shared that i like to eat when i am hungry. in fact i'm getting cranky from hunger as we speak. i was just sharing MY experiences.

[houseofgirls]

I finally finished reading all of this.  I can not believe that book says to do those things.  When I read that, it literally made me sick to think someone would put their baby through that.

[laura1977]

See this is exactly what I mentioned.  Every mother has different situations that call for different courses of action.  Doesn't make one wrong or the other wrong.  Every child has different personalities and handles things differently.  Be glad that everyone's children are healthy.  My husband's 1 year old nephew probably won't live to see his 2nd birthday because he has SMA.  He can't walk, hold his head up, talk, or anything.  The worst part is my husbands sister and her husband couldn't have children and finally found someone that gave them their newborn son, and then this happened.  She must do things completely different because her child is different.  

[Mozartcowgirl]

wow.. all this drama and no one wants to talk about how i ran around the house naked while my kids listended to metallica and ate cheesy poofs.  

immortal.. the smores were awesome..LOL.

[ImmortalOne]

Mozart, that isn't news.  Metallica rocked till they screwed over their fans with that on-line music download nonsense.  You still look good nakid after 7 children.... did I mention I hate you so now you are the Omega of the "Clique"?  And lastly... Cheesy Poofs?  Are those like Cheetto's?  Or however?  If so, I think those have at least two of the basic food groups, right?  

So, you aren't that bad.  And yes the smores were awesome, and I have some great footage of you dancing nakid around the fire.

[Med Help]

This post has devolved into being way too personal. As you all know, it's perfectly fine to have a good healthy discussion and to disagree, but once the posts get personal we need to stop them. This post has reached that point. Please don't make use delete the whole post, since the initial discussion is certainly worth keeping.

MedHelp

[JustAYoungGirl]

Right I know I may get slated here for saying this BUT babies are alot more clever than you think and learn very clever. If you know that your baby is fed, burped, bum changed, played with, cuddled, kissed, not in pain and they are just fighting thier sleep then it does no harm to leave them crying for 5 or 10 minutes from around the age of 2 months. Especially if your becoming stressed out as your baby will pick up on this and become more distressed. I wouldnt leave them for any longer than 10 minutes though because that seems cruel to me at that age.  I also dont like the term CIO i prefer the term self soothing.  It has to be taught slowly and gradually bcoz otherwise your baby will be scared and lonely. Even if you just decide not to pick the baby up unless its been crying for 10 minutes or the cry is an urgent one (parents CAN tell the difference in cries) and you stand by thier cradle and sing to them or put your hand on thier tummy and tap your fingers slowly on them and make soothing noises. This way they know that you are there but are also learning how to sleep without constant cuddling or rocking. I know i have no children of my own but i brought up a cousin from the age of 3 weeks until 2 years old and also helped alot with my little brother when he was born. I would go as far as to say that I was the primary care giver. His cradle was in the bedroom with me not my parents.

[girlybuff]

I LOVED co-sleeping with my DD.  I miss it.  One of the reasons I stopped was because she started to sleep ON top of me and I couldn't breathe as she is 30 pounds.  I loved the closeness.  I loved hearing her breathe.  I woke up if she even blinked wrong in her sleep.  My sense of awareness was so heightened it was ridiculous.
Cultures all over the world co-sleep on floors, in tents, in caves for God's sake.  Only here, in this country do we say, sleep in your own space after birth, away from your mommy and daddy and the wrmth you felt for 40 weeks.  I don't criticize anyone but for me, she was only going to be a baby once and I cherished every minute.  Yes, I was sleep deprived to an unbelievable level but that to me is parenthood.  I slept when I was not a mom.
She might have been moved into her own crib BUT she is still in my room so she knows I'm there.  I don't feel I'm raising a spoiled child, I feel I'm raising a child who is very secure in knowing that when she needs me for ANYTHING, I will be there.
I decided at 15 months that she did need some self soothing skills because she will eventually go to school and be in the real world but this was way WAY after her infancy stage.
Thanks for making me feel like I wasn't crazy........
PS, I have a tempur pedic bed and she never, EVER rolled or went anywhere without me waking up.  I knew if she sneezed in her sleep.  Some mothers don't have that heightened sense of awareness.  It's no fault of their own, they just sleep like rocks.  If that's you, then co-sleeping is not for you.
ANd co-sleeping does reduce SIDS in many ways becuse the baby mimics the mother's breathing patterns and since they thing SIDS has something to do with apnea, it maies sense that if the baby is next to someone and hears their rhythms that they won't stop breathing in their sleep, as long as safety precautions are taken into consideration as always.  There are always going to be accidents unfortunately but I took my chances and if I ever get pregnant again, I will do the same thing.
Here we are 15 months later and she still gets the booby in the morning and at night and I always said I would stop when she's a year, well, that's gone completely out the window and I LOVE EVERY MINUTE of it!!!  

[girlybuff]

This quote is from ELizabeth Pantley's No Cry SLeep Solution book which has a lot of great ideas and goes into details for parents who choose to co-sleep.

This to me proves and puts into words very eloquently that when an infant cries it out, they are not learning to go to sleep, they are giving up because their spirit is broken.

"He awakes in a mindless terror of the silence, the motionless. He screams. He is afire from head to foot, with want, with desire, with intolerable impatience. He gasps for breath and screams until his head if filled and throbbing with the sound. He screams until his chest aches, his throat is sore. He can bear the pain no more and his sobs weaken and subside. He listens. He opens and closes his fists. He rolls his head from side to side. NOTHING HELPS. It is unbearable. He begins to cry again, but it is too much for his strained throat; he soon stops. He waves his hands and kicks his feet. He stops, able to suffer, unable to think, unable to hope. He listens. He falls asleep again."



I am certainly no expert and this is only my OPINION but babies have one way of communicating that they need you, and that is to cry. If we don't go to them when they need us, we are only teaching them that they can't count on us at an early age and that stays with them forever. They do not have the thought process that we have. They have an overwhelming need throughout their whole body to have comfort and our job as parents is to give them that comfort. I know how much my head hurts after a hard cry so I cannot imagine how it feels for an infant.
Parenting does NOT stop at night time.

[girlybuff]

Whatever method you choose ladies, please just make sure that your children KNOW you love them and are there for them no matter what time of night it is.
If you want your 8 hours of sleep from the get go perhaps you should have gotten a cat instead.

[ImmortalOne]

I think that if you look at the studies of the babies in the Children's home (I think it was in Russia or something) the babies that failed to thrive were those that weren't held and well cared for.  While this is an extreme, the mere thought of leaving a child to cry themselves to sleep does seem cruel, it has to break their spirit and gives them a deep thought of being truly alone.  That isn't healthy for them on any level, especially if you believe in the learning aspects of babies and infants being strongly linked to their adult behaviors (such as addictions, and so forth).

I love co-sleeping, that is just me of course and my opinion of what is right for my baby and my family.  I can't imagine not co-sleeping.  Especially as a working mother, it gives us a little more time together that we are robbed of as I'm away at work.

[momofour]

All parents and babies are different, with an exception to every single rule out there.  Just based upon my experience, and the fact that I do have something to compare it to... my first 3 babies were sleeping through the night by 12 weeks old because I did do the CIO method.  However, with my 4th baby...I nursed him longer and did not let him CIO at all.  Well, 8 months later I was getting a little bit tired.  I began not feeding him but gave him his pacifier, which just exchanged one bad habit for another.  So, there is a difference and that it can be done if that is your will & belief.  You AND the baby will be just fine!  That is a promise and it can be accomplished guilt-free:)

I would say by 3 months old that it's duable to get them to sleep through the night, but that it takes time.  It does take love and consistency though, and a good bedtime routine is fine & healthy, but all within reason.  If the baby is having a hard time then check on them, with picking them up at first, but then stretch out the time after a while with checking on them.  When you do go back into the room don't pick them up, but just pat them on their tummy to reassure them that you are there & care for them.  It's a gradual process but it works well and can be accomplished eventually, but don't give up and give it time...at least a week.

As far as co-sleeping goes...it's your choice, but it's not for me.  I have been a full-time stay at home mom for almost 10 years now and that is my time and sleep is important to one's mental & physical health.  It isn't healthy for the children nor one's marriage, if kids are always coming b/t the parents, whether it's during the day or at night.  I don't think it's unreasonable to allow them to cuddle at naps or when they are sick, but that is a bad habit to break if it's all night more often than not.  I think it's unecessary to co-sleep beyond those reasons, especially when they are no longer a baby.

Good luck to you all and keep hanging in there.  Everyone knows their limits and what is best for them & their situation...please take care.

[momofour]

P.S. I thought of this last night...just keep in mind to find a good balance with everything in life.  It's not healthy to be one extreme over the other.  I have found over the years to throw the magazines and books out the window as well.  Yes, they can be informative and interesting to read...but that's it!  They end up causing a mother to doubt themselves and worry in excess causing high levels of unecessary stress & anxiety.  Who needs that anyway?  Just do what is right for you and what feels right that works for your situation.  You know you and your family and that is all that really matters.  Opinions are one thing, but to judge someone is another thing and it isn't fair until that person has walked in their shoes.  Just be nice and truly be sincere with helping the other one.  Good luck to all and take care of each other:)