To cut or not to cut?

I posted this in the Pregnancy forum as well, but wanted to see if any of you ladies over here could give me some advice! =)

So Hubby and I have been really thinking about circumcision this time around (that is if we have a boy) and want to be prepared and well educated and know the pros and cons about it. I would like your personal experiences or opinions on it why you feel a certain way about it. Our son is circumcised and we really didn't give it much thought to be honest. We just thought, that's what you do! Hubby is circumcised and never had any problems and Jeremiah hasn't had any problems thus far. Personally I don't know if it's right or wrong. The more I read, the more I take a step back and really think about it. Is it completely necessary? I know in my opinion, I just thought it would be good for cleanliness purposes as I have heard some stories of older men having issues with it and some say to be circumcised later in life is somewhat traumatic. We are going to really study and search this out and I thought it would be a good idea to get some views on it. I am going into this with a completely open mind as I have never really given it much thought.

This is not meant to stir up any arguments, I just want your personal opinion on what you believe about it. I think it will just help me to hear stories from you ladies whom I have grown to love and trust for advice. =) Thanks!!

[peekawho]

You probably will get a lot of conflicting comments.

I personally don't believe in routine infant circumcision.  I believe the young adult should make such a personal, permanent decision himself.  Yes, its painful later in life, but its just as painful if done at birth though they've come a long way in the past few years in regards to the procedure anesthesia itself.
If done later in life, at least the young man will be given post op pain relief for a couple of weeks.  An infant is only given a couple doses of baby Tylenol for a day.

We don't know with infants if they are crying from pain, or crying from any other reason.   Babies cry regardless, so its tempting to say "oh, he's hungry" when in fact he might be in pain.

I just think with this elective procedure, the person whose genitals are being surgically altered should be a part of the decision.   It can't be undone if the young man isn't happy with it later.  

My boys were circ'd because 30 years ago, I assumed it had to be done.  No one ever hinted it didn't have to be done.  I just thought it was always done.
It wasn't until I met Mr. Peek that I ever saw an uncircumcised penis (except for a baby), and discovered that almost all other countries do not circumcise.

In regards to STD's and circumcision...with or without a circ, a man should still always wear a condom if he is having sex with more than one partner.   With a condom, the statistics are the same.  

[have 2 kids]

We had our son circumcised.    We have had males on both sides of the family that weren't cirumcised and had problems later on.  

[tiredbuthappy]

I'm very glad to be having a girl so I don't have to make this decision yet. DH is adamantly against it. He also wanted to name a boy after himself. He feels so strongly about this, he was willing to give up naming a kid after himself in exchange for not circumcizing.

I have noticed in the past few years, that more and more kids are uncircumcized. It may be the population I am working with (most immigrant), but I think up to 1/2 the boys in my class the past few years have not been circumcized. I only see them if they need help or have a problem in the bathroom, so I can't say with certainty. But even when I worked in a daycare in an affluent area, at least 1 or 2 kids in each class was uncircumcized (so maybe 1/8, or 1/7).

[pcarsey]

I agree with peek 100% on the pain factor! I never had Brayden done and I do not regret it. My older son had it done and they wrapped the gauze too tight and his skin grew into it before he ever left the hospital! They had to cut it out! No that doesn't happen very often, but whose to say it won't happen to anyone else?.. There really is no reasoning behind it other then "tradition" or "religion". It isn't "necessary" by any means. Uncircumcised and circumcised infection rates can be the same. Just like ear infections, a lot of factors goes into both.

If Brayden wants it done when he is older then that is his choice.

To me, it's the same as ear piercing. It should be if they choose to have it done.

[Trialanderror]

I am all against it because it is erogenous zones that are being cut off. I just would not want to reduce what nature gives a boy unless there were very important reasons. There were plenty of discussions on the Men`s Forum, you might find some in the archives. And you can also google the organization nocirc. I received lots of great advice from them. Great that you are trying to get lots of opinions!

[lovethebops]

I have 2 girls, and have not had to make this decision, but if they were boys, we were (DH and I) in total agreement not to have it done. It is unescessary in our eyes, so our our kids (if boys) would not have been circ'd...and if we do have more, and it is a boy-we would not have it done. I could go into why I believe it isn't right, but I don't want to 'stir the pot' or offend others who decided to have it done. (I have seen circ threads get pretty nasty!! I am sure others have as well) But I pretty much agree with Peek.

[heatherlynn22]

all the men in my family and dh's have been circumsized. after talking to all the moms and the pedi we decided it would be better for them. everyone told us (and i'm also finding out) that it does help make cleaning it easier. (my mom having raise my brother and keeping my nephew 3-6 days a week and changing his diaper, giving him his bath when he spends the night) said it is also easier for the little boy to keep clean. neither of our boys cried for long and i don't think it was really the actual circumsision that made them cry but the shot. after about 2 minutes and a big hug they were fine. i think they cry harder getting their boosters. lol. but either way we decided to get it done.

[April2]

My husband is and everyone else I know in our family. I had both of my boys circumcised and never had a problem. I too, was told that it would be easier to keep clean and that there was more chance of males getting cancer who are uncircumcised and that they can give cervical cancer to women.
Both my boys came back from the circumcision sleeping and sucking on a pacifier so they acted fine. They did not show any discomfort.
It is a personal decision and it's not for everyone. My friend chose not to circumcise her boys and they seem to be doing fine. I think you just have to go with what feels right for you and your family.

[chantal21]

Thank you ladies so much. I can see both sides of it and understand why you would and why you wouldn't. This is going to be one hard decision....Ultimately it's up to hubby. And we have decided to research it for the next 2 months and gather all the info we can, good and bad, and go from there. I'll let you know what we decide when we finally figure this out! But thanks again!! This really helps a lot.

[mum2beagain]

Both my boys are not circumcised, we are from England; it just isn't done ther unless for a medical reason. I was shocked when I first came to med help and saw that in the US it was a fairly common procedure that seemed to be done to make life easier (who's???). My oldest boys foreskin now retracts (did when he was about 4) and the youngest one is still totally intact, cleaning is not a problem, you don't actually have to do anything with it until puberty when my boys will be taught to care for it themselves. My husband is circumcised; he had to have it done due to medical complications actually caused by his own mother after a doctor told her to forcibly retract his foreskin when he was an infant to clean under it; something totally not necessary. He was about two years old when surgery was done and although he was medicated he still vividly remembers the pain associated with it, he would not want any child to have to have it done unless absolutley medically necessary. Just my 2 cents; but I think it is basically a cosmetic procedure and I am of the opinion that cosmetic procedures should be left until the recipient is old enough for themselves to decide.
I also must say that although I strongly disagree with circumcision I don't argue with those who strongly agree with circumcision (and I have a few friends that do).  I just like to agree to disagree with them!

[mami1323]

Well I had Jayden circumsized and I felt really horrible for doing it.  I remember him screeming in pain when we went to remove the guaze.  It got stuck to his raw penis and when Richie pulled it off, which he had to do fast like a bandaid, it started to bleed.  It was horrible, I cried like Jayden did.  That was the one moment where I regreted doing it.  It healed pretty quickly after that and we never used the guaze again, we just used a ton of A&D ointment in his diaper and that seemed to do the trick.  My best friend's son had a circumcision for her son, however, they didn't remove enough skin and since the skin was left pretty much intact he has gotten a couple of infections.  She has to literally hold him down and pull back the skin and clean it and it's very difficult to do with a 3 year old.  So I guess you can go either way with this one.  I wish I was more help but maybe just reading the stories you will get an idea of what's best for you.

[AHP84]

I had my son circumcized and it was done with a plastic ring (I'm not sure what the medical name is for it), which really seemed to make his healing process good. When he was circumsized and then given back to me a few hours later, he never cried inconsolably. However, I felt sick to my stomach whenever I'd change his diaper, because the tip of his penis looked red and swollen and had this little plastic ring tied just under the tip--it looked awful and horribly painful. But he never showed any type of resistence or displays of pain when I changed his diaper, or screaming. He would fuss a little I think because he has always been one who doesn't like to be disturbed when he's relaxed; he gets quite irritable in those cases, even now.
The doctors never told me to use guaze on him. They said to just use vaseline and coat the tip really well to protect it from moisture, as well as to put some vasaline onto the diaper where it would be in contact with his penis.
The redness and swelling went away after about two days, and the plastic ring fell off after about a week. Everything healed perfectly and he's never had any problems, and I don't regret my decision. I wanted to have it done for him because I believe it is my obligation, as his mother, for his health and well-being for both childhood and adulthood.

[pcarsey]

One thing I believe is, babies don't know what is going on, when they are in pain, some just don't show emotion like we would expect them to. Kind of like animals, it just is what it is to them.

My son has never fussed over teething. I knew he was teething because he was chewing on everything and when I looked at his gums they were swollen. He never cried. He is now getting his top teeth in, how I found out was that he in now grinding his teeth. I assume it's to get the pain to stop but who knows. He has fallen and I KNOW it had to hurt, but he never cried.

My point is.. just because babies don't cry or fuss after they get clipped, doesn't mean there is no pain. Ask a man who was circumcised when they were older if it hurts. There is no difference in a man and a little baby.

[Mumita]

Wow, the ladies in this forum have completely oposite opinions on this subject than in the Pregnanacy forum, That's interesting!!!

I don't think that the argument anymore has anything to do with penile cancer, I think that penile cancer and circumsicion has been disproven.  But they have found that the std risks are lower with circumsicion.

I pretty much just let my husband decide on this because he's the one with a penis and I have absolutely no experience living with a penis so I let him decide. And He thinks that its easier and better in the long run to circumsize because of the possible infections and issues that could come up later on.  So we will have it done when he's born, but I'll make sure that the Dr's put A-LOT of ointment on it so the gauze doesn't stick to it.

[mum2beagain]

Another thought; foreskins actually help prevent urninary tract infections by covering the end of the ureathra.

[chantal21]

Mumita...yes I know. I was just reading both...and wow...the opinions are totally different over here than in the pregnancy forum. It's like the the decision is split right down the middle. I am pretty sure we will be doing it again (if we have a boy) but not 100% quite yet. With Jeremiah, I used the gauze just for the first 2 days maybe? and I put TONS of A&D on the gauze and on his penis. It only got stuck one time and I freaked out! My hubby was at work, so I called him, crying, not knowing what to do. It took me 45 min. to get the courage to try to take it off. All I did was get a washcloth with warm water on it and dripped it right on the gauze to loosen it up. It worked right away! He never cried, but I sure was crying. lol. That was the only problem I ever had. I think I bought 2 big tubes of A&D and almost went through it all. After a week, it looked great. My husband is one of 6 boys. They were all circumcised and only one had a problem with it. He was the one who had it done by a woman. The others had it done by a man. Don't know if that really makes a difference, but I may be a little uncomfortable if a woman was doing that to my son. After all, it is the man who has that part, not a woman. ;)

We actually used a mohel for Jeremiah and he was willing to do it even though we are not Jewish. I would actually use him again, and I figure, they are REALLY experienced and know what they are doing. Plus, he did it right in our home so, as soon as he was done, I went and nursed Jeremiah immediately. I had a great experience overall....He explained everything before hand and even while he was doing it. He was super friendly and funny! If he wasn't funny and cracking jokes the entire time, instead of laughing, I would have been crying hysterically. It all worked out. ;)

We are Christians, and I have been looking in the bible and I think I may have figured it out now. Never gave it much thought before or actually studied it, and I'm glad I asked you ladies.
I really appreciate all of the advice and experiences. It's a major decision for one to make, but I believe it's your own personal decision to do what's best for your child. I don't really think there is a wrong decision, but I was looking to make sure it is right to have it done. Because if it wasn't, I would totally change my mind. I am still looking into, as I have only researched a bit last night. We will make our final decision sometime soon.
Thanks again ladies!! =)

[lovethebops]

See, that makes me feel bad right there for you ladies. Obviously, by PM, Chantal you know my stance. I think if you poor women are crying over the fact that you have to pull away gauze or feel bad over it, even for a moment, than why do it?? Why put your son AND yourself though that?? It is not necissary, in fact we were DISCOURAGED from doing it by our Dr.'s and Midwives(they are very intensely discouraging it in our area now, but of course, leave it up to the parent). But we were never going to do it anyway, no question-but we had girls...

My mother had my Bro cir'd, because that was ENCOURAGED 20  years ago, and she totally regrets it, because she never gave much thought about it, and bought into the whole 'its cleaner, better, etc' ideal. She said she could hear him scream from her hospital room and she wept thru the whole thing...She still regrets it to this day, and if she could do it over, she would NEVER have it done.


I say, If I  personally could not stand to have something drastic done to my OWN genitalia as an adult, why would I put my infant son through it?

But ultimately, it is up to each parent to decide what they feel is right. It is not my child, so to each his/her own. I also don't get into the infant ear piercing either. One of my good friends had it done to her daughter, and I love her just the same (interestingly, she has a son as well, and did not have him circ'd) and I don't think she is terrible or a bad mother for doing it, I just would not do it to my girls...

You say you had your oldest son CIrc'd, may I ask why you are questioning doing it again this time around, if you have another son? I think if you are raising questions or doubts, maybe you should put a lot more thought into it. Best of luck!

[Brown Eyed Gurl]

ok well personally I think it's a must not only because I feel that on a religious aspect God wants it (IMHO) and also on a health aspect.....I feel it's better because they are less likely to have problems and less likely to have trouble with STD's as the years go on so that's my opinoin and I never thought twice about it....

[Trialanderror]

I was surprised: my son`s former paediatrician, young but affiliated with a large hospital, pressured for circumcision while the new paediatrician is a young Jewish (!) doctor who - despite his religion - follows what Medical Journals for physicians have been promoting in this country for a while: to never retract a boy`s foreskin forcefully and to use circumcision only as a last resort. It is possible to look beyond religious traditions obviouisly, if oyu want.

[AHP84]

I guess the reason I did it for my son, and would do it again for any other son if I have any more, even though it makes me feel badly about the pain they might experience, is because I believe the long-term health results make it worth it to do.
I suppose I'd rather have it done to them as an infant, while their bodies grow so rapidly that healing is faster, rather than have him decide or have to have it done due to medical issues later in life, when there will be memories of the pain, and a recovery time that isn't as quick because their body is no longer growing at such a rapid pace. Being older I'm sure would be much more traumatic, whereas days-old infants will never have a memory of it happening.
I also see it as, although I choose to face discomfort in knowing my son may be in pain, he will recover. This is not something that will kill him or haunt him for life with traumatic memories. Not only that, but there will be times, as your child ages that you may have to help your child, but involves pain.
For example, vaccinations. Oftentimes, you have to hold your child down while they get pricked with needles and injected with syrums, usually more than one shot per vaccination appointment. Does any mother/father want to restrain their child for that, put their child through that pain? Hear them scream as they look into your eyes with tears and fear? Why do we do it? Not all vaccinations are *needed* but we get them anyway. Why? It's a personal decision that a parent feels is necessary and best for their child, so they must be willing to put their child through it, knowing it will make them feel badly for causing their child pain.
To me, that is what circumcizion is like. I believe it's the best option for the health and well-being of my son and possible future sons, and the pain is (or should be) temporary and not lifelong. Plus the benefit is that as an infant they will not remember it, unlike they will if they choose or have to have it done later in life.

[peekawho]

But even the American Academy of Pediatrics does not endorse routine infant circumcision, nor does any recognized Pediatrics Association in the developed world.

Don't you think if it were necessary for health reasons, it would be recommended by the AAP?  

Why subject a child to a surgery that is not recommended by any recognized pediatrics association in the world?  (outside of Africa, and that's a different subject).

[AHP84]

Also, I wanted to add it that I am a Christian and while I would like to say that my religious beliefs have a role in my decision...really, not much at all. The main reason I decided to have my son circumsized is because I think it is the best option for his long-term health. I thought a lot about it before having it done, knowing I was risking something going wrong with the circumcision that could be damaging to him, but that was outweighed by wondering if I'd feel responsible for not having it done later in his life if he ended up with medical problems. I did a lot of research to make my decision, and I came to my own conclusion that I felt it was best to have the procedure done for him after his birth. I definitely don't regret it and I'm grateful that he suffered no significant medical issues from having it done.
It's definitely not something that I'd recommend anyone do for their son without thinking it through first and doing research about it. I didn't just blindly assume that circumsizion was the thing to do, so get it done for him; I put a lot of thought and careful research into my decision, as any parent should.

[pcarsey]

take a look at this...
http://www.noharmm.org/separated.htm

[Whitneylauren]

Topics like this are always really hard to discuss as opinions on circumcision tend to be polar opposites. In the end it is a personal decision that every parent has to be confident about so it is good that you are taking it seriously. However, I would suggest that because your husband is circumcised your son should be- just so he looks like his dad.

Personally I am adamant that all my boys be circumcised (both are, and any future ones will be). Not only is it a cleanliness issue, but it is also, for me, an aesthetic one. As a woman I prefer the cleaner appearance of a circumcised penis.

I never had a problem with gauze getting stuck as I was very liberal with the vaseline while DS's were healing. Each was completely healed within a week.

LIke when an adult gets his tonsils removed, it is more painful (and expensive to pay for) for an adult to recover from than a baby. I guess I see it, also, as a general maintenance and preventative issue- like getting the frenum cut so your child doesn't have a space between his front teeth.

To address the argument that men are born with that skin so it is natural and should not be removed: we are also born with tonsils (which can cause serious infections and are not needed anymore), wisdom teeth (people don't always have room for them), an appendix, and a few more things that we don't really need anymore and (as I have experienced) might have to be removed. To me, the skin surround the penis is in the same category.

I hope I haven't offended any mother on here who is against circumcision..... This is an intense subject that we all feel very strongly about! ;)

[tiredbuthappy]

i find the religious aspect interesting... why would God give man foreskin if he wanted it to be cut off?? I'm not up on my Bible studies...

i have worked with both circumcized and uncircumcized children. Changed their diapers, etc... I personally felt more uncomfortable trying to scrape tried on poop off the exposed head of a penis than the foreskin. Never once did it appear to me (or smell) as though the uncircumcized boys had poorer hygiene.

[peekawho]

All penises look alike when erect, anyway--circ'd or not.  Pretty funny looking fellows!

To Whitney--tonsils, and appendixes do not get removed unless they are causing severe problems.  So its really not the same category.

-------------------------------------------------------

We'll have to start winding this down pretty soon.  I think good comments have been made on both sides, and I'm uncomfortable to be seeing a lot of religious references being made.   That doesn't often end well.

[lovethebops]

As a side point, though my stance on Circ. is clear, I also must add to the point of vaccinations... I DO NOT give my children ANY vaccinations that are not needed. I read up and make sure of what I feel is important,like the biggies, but refrain from the unnessicary ones, and NOBODY in my current PEd. crew has ever forced or questioned my stance, in fact many have agreed. For example, my children have never gotten the flu  vaccine. I find that one unnesicarry and ineffective based on recent reports I have seen on the news and spoken with my children's Ped. about. Another new Vaccine I have refrained from is the HEP. A vaccine. It (the disease) has no symptoms and would not effect a person who had is as they would probably never know (this comes straight from the mouth of my kid's Ped, who I respect greatly as a Dr. and a parent, who has 7 children of his own! It takes A LOT for me to trust and respect a DR.!!:)

Anyway, do what you want to your children. If you feel it is valid and nessicary for health or cleanliness (and as Peek pointed out, no one in the AAP suggests it anymore for health reasons) than, by all means, it is your choice as a parent. No one will stand in your way. You will just meet other parents out there that don't feel the same way or share the sentiments as you, and that is OK. Like I said, I don't disrespect anyone who chooses to, I would not. Thats all.

[April2]

Did you guys see that video on here called "Circumcision may prevent STD's"? For some reason I saw that on the side bar when I went to the dog forum, lol. I don't know why I didn't see it in this forum.

[mami1323]

I'm a little confused as to why you think the tonsils and appendix are not needed.  Although, the body may function without them, I do think we have these things in our bodies for a reason.  

peek, please enlighten me medically on this subject.

[peekawho]

April, condoms must be worn in order to prevent STD's.  I'm afraid people will get the idea that if someone is circumcised, they no longer have to worry about it.
So regardless, condoms must be used.  And with a condom, there is no difference at all in STD rates between circ'd men and intact men.

[Annice1234]

I got my first son circumsized and will get the other one's done when he gets his hernia surgergy.  It was seriously no big deal and the differnece in getting it done as a baby and not when you're older is babies don't remember anythinggg.  Much better that way in my opinion!  Like when they get shots or something they cry for a minute or 2 and forget it even happened!  Well that's how mine are at least!  

[lovethebops]

OMG! That site is Horrifying! I can't even imagine...I have seen one preformed, and I must say, I did not have to watch it to be swayed. I already know how I feel about it, but if you were to watch one or visit this site or a similar one...I think more people would choose not to have it done. I think as time goes on, those stats will lower as it is no longer being recommended by the AAP.

[pcarsey]

Yes I agree. Also, The part about why insurance still pays for it makes me sick! There are more important things (IMO) that insurance "should" pay for but doesn't.

I think maybe if more people do some research on why they shouldn't (not saying that they do or don't) and come across that site, it might really make them think.

[peekawho]

Good discussion!  I think its pretty much played out now.  Lets let this be one time we don't have a thread removed.  So far, its been a great discussion and very respectful.

But its probably a good idea to end it, so it can remain here, and remain searchable.

[chantal21]

Thank you all for your input. I appreciate it! I know this topic will always be iffy, but I just wanted to know some reasons why some of you had it done and why some didn't. It was very helpful. I believe the bible and what God has to say, I know some of you do and some don't, so I am ultimately making my decision based off of that. I want to honor God in all I do, not just some things,and I'm not ashamed of it.
But hearing different stories also helps as well. It's good to be well educated in all areas of life! So once again, thanks!!! =)

[ziggysgrl0724]

I had both my sons circumcised.  I am just going to offer my opinion from a side where the things that can go wrong do go wrong.  My 2nd wasn't able to be circumcised right after birth due to jaundice, so he was circumcised a few weeks later by his ped.  She had to use different equipment cause she said his penis was now too big for the normal equipment( of course this made DH proud).  So all went well with the procedure, and that was that.  When DS was potty training i noticed the flow of his urine was abnormal.  Imagine a V shape.  That's how the flow was from his penis. He had to sit on the toilet and hols his penis all the way back just to make hit the inside of the bowl.  I was referred to a urologist who diagnosed meatal stenosis, which was the opening to his penis was very very small, not the usual slit opening, but more the size of a pin head.  The Dr. said this was a result of circumcision, and that it is sometimes a side effect of it.  My DS had to have a surgery to fix it.  When all was said and done I asked the urologist of this should stop me from circumcising my next child if it be a boy(I was pregnant with DD and i didnt know the sex yet).  He told me no.  He told me that I should still get it done(if that was my personal preference).  I probably would have still gotten it done.

I think the bottom line is that it is something that you believe based on what your surrounded with.  As far back as my memory goes for this sort of thing, I have known circumcised penises to be "normal".  Everyone in my family was, and that just is what seemed right to me.  I remember the first time I was with a partner that wasn't it really set me back and I wasn't expecting it.  Either way, i don't think the decision makes you a bad person.  it REALLY has to be about what YOU feel comfortable with, no matter who likes it or who doesn't.

[have 2 kids]

I think Peeks right.  There really isn't anything else to say.   Some have given reasons to do it and some have given reasons not to do it.