British TV Will Show Assisted Suicide

Okay I read this story the guy had LG. He stated he would rather die a quick death rather than a long and painful one.
I have told my wife a long time ago if I am on a machine and I dont have much of a chance unplug it there is no need to make a Dr rich.

So my question is if you found out you were dieing from a disease that has no cure and you got to the point someone was having to take care of you would you want to do yourself in???

I would just for the fact I really dont want a painful death I would assume to go in my sleep but we dont get to pick what we may die of I guess it just happens.

[ILADVOCATE]

I still can't agree with this. Regardless even if one is okay with physician assisted suicide, which I can see both sides of the issue, when a doctor actively administers it as Kevorkian did on tv (and rightfully got arrested) that's euthanasia and I can't morally agree with that. I don't have a problem where if a person is at the end of their life and they are in pain and they want to end it earlier. I fully understand that. It just disturbs me that when someone says "I want this right so I don't have to be a burden on society". That's horrible that someone would have to think that way because we all should care for people who are elderly or with severe physical disabilities. And if we are unable to
that's why peopleshould be eligible for home attendants and why I am supporting the Community Choice Act. And the physicist Stephen Hawkings has ALS and certainly does want to die. Quality of life is something that comes from how people treat you as well. I will have to look up the story but regardless I don't think it should be broadcasted for political reasons. Death is a very personal and private matter.
  Politics aside I want to live until the end no matter what. But I had a family member pass on who chose not to get treatment for something that would have saved his life and because he had repeat heart attacks and strokes and was going to have to have his leg amputated I could understand why. I acquired my physical disability after that and I have pain and spasms all day and I had suicidal ideations at first and I wouldn't have wanted to be helped along though. I feel the opposite now. After two near death episodes early on it made me want to live more strongly, to embrace life. But I would support anyone's decision who voluntarily chose to end their life if it was at the end and death was eminent and things had gotten too horrific for them. I just want to decision to come from them and them only and not society.

[alienshadow]

I understand what you are saying > We all have our own feelings and desires. If I choose to end my life because of medical reasons (terminal illness) I would not want it aired on TV.

We all go through the emotions you have described above but I would not kill myself for any reason I didnt mean for it to sound that way at all.

[zodiacqueen]

Great topic.  Glad that you posted this.  I would be very interested to see how some of the pro-life members of this forum feel about this topic.  This can be an interesting learning experience if this debate remains "clean" and respectful.  

I feel like Kevorkian was no less than a selfless, noble, and moral individual that was willing to ease human suffering despite the fact that he knew full well that he would go to jail over it.  He made that tape to be used as evidence that the Lou Garig's patient had the mental capability to make his choice known that he wanted to end his physical suffering.  As we saw, the tape did not vindicate Kevorkian.

Yes, I do believe that Kevorkian played God when he helped that patient end his life.  But, I still believe that Kevorkian is a very noble man that gave a man his last wish to mercifully end his suffering.  

Do any of you know how absolutely horrible Lou Garig's disease is?  This is a cruel. long drawn out disease that paralyzes every muscle in your body-skeletal muscles, BREATHING muscles, and your heart muscle, while your mental status remains alert and intact.  Could any of you watch a loved-one slowly deteriorate like this and watch them struggling for breath or unable to swallow anymore?  What if they were begging for you to help them end their suffering?  Could you tell them no?

[alienshadow]

Yes I know  someone personally who has Lou Garigs my old boss man he found out he had it at the age of 45. When I go see him now hes just there he cant really communicate.
Sad part about this disease is that your muscles are falling and you cant use them but your Brain is fully aware of everything meaning you know who is talking to you and whats on tv or even the smell of food.
So if I had it I would want to end my life personally just because I dont want to be a burden on someone and hell for that matter I dont want to be stuck in a bed or chair just laying there. My old boss tryed to end his life but his muscles where to weak to pull the trigger he has made several attempts to do it.

[April2]

Well, I'm a pro-lifer and, boy, this is a tough one. I can understand wanting to end one's suffering, really I can. Both my grandmother and my aunt decided to stop treatment and die on there own. They did keep them medicated for pain and to make them comfortable.

I think we could open a Pandora's Box if we started letting assisted suicide become legal. I think people would begin to want it if they suffer from depression and other things when there can be hope for them.
Also, a lot of people are told they only have months to live and wind up living much longer. They could have missed out on so much. Or they're told there's no hope and they go into remission.
My friend has a son who wasn't supposed to live as long as he did. He has a disease that will someday kill him, most likely. His life is a miracle. He's doing so much better than they ever expected.

I think of Christopher Reeves and how he said he wanted to commit suicide shortly after his accident. I'm so glad he didn't. He did a lot to help with research on spinal cord injuries and got the word out better than many others could have because of who he was and the fact that he had the resources to do it.

I do think we should do everything we can to make sure people are comfortable and free of pain in their end time but I just don't know about going to that next step. Who knows? People have come out of comas years later or gone through remission when they were told they would die. We just don't know what can happen.

Good topic, though. It gives us a lot to think about.

[kayakka]

Euthenasia is practised on a daily basis, but it is called 'turning off life support' and 'increasing the pain med.' to the point where it becomes lethal. If a person wishes to end their suffering, and they have had the opportunity to discuss their situation, surely a humane society does not deny them? The difficulty arises when we talk about the person's capacity to make that decision. My wife was pressured into consenting to life support being turned off when my (then) 2year old stepson was struck by a car. She refused, and now he's a valuable member of society, walking, talking, paying taxes etc. Who has the right to decide? This to me is the crucial question.

[kiddthekatt]

Very interesting thread. I'm pro-choice, and this is a really difficult topic for some. My husband and I both have living wills. Our children know of this and they understand that we both are totally serious. My Mom had a massive stroke at 53 and she lay in the hospital for 2 months, she never opened her eyes again. After being told that she had no brain activity, we had to get a court order to have her unplugged.

That was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, and I don't want my own children to have to face that. I don't want to have it televised, but when my time is up, let me go peacefully. I also feel like Kevorkian acted very noble and he helped many who were living in horrible pain or were just there not living at all. I feel that a person should have the right to make the decision concerning themselves or a loved one when there is absolutely nothing else that can be done. My living will states that I want nothing put into my body that will drag my death out over a period of time. The only thing that I will allow will be pain meds to keep me comfortable.

Thank you for this thread, it will definitely make one stop and think.

gentle hugs
Angel

[AndiJ78]

There is a difference in many of these cases. ALS is a progressive neurological disorder, they will never get better. Same with MS. They will only get worse. Until you have physically been there or watched someone day in and day out suffer through that pain, you have no idea. None. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Knowing someone who knows someone or hearing of someone is no comparison. Being in early stages is also of no consequence.

I have watched people recoil back in enormous pain from a hug because it hurt too much to be touched even by their own young child. I have watched them in agony because despite being on a vent, they could not catch their breath, ever. I have watched them in complete misery because they had no control over their bodily functions. They could no longer eat, they could no longer communicate with the ones they loved, they could not get comfortable no matter how much pain medicine they are given.

That is no life, there is no quality to that life. I voted for and am proud that our state has passed Death with Dignity. This is not for people with chronic pain or depression, this is for people suffering from a terminal illness. A PVS or coma is not a qualifying condition.

I have seen patients have their vent turned off and held their hand as they died. How much easier it would have been for them had they just been able to go to sleep peacefully after a dose of medication.

[ILADVOCATE]

  I agree with what everyone is saying except for Kevorkian. I do respect people's opinons and certainly ALS is a tough call. I'd stick it out with but I have be honest if I had Alzheimer's I don't think I would want live to gradually lose my ability to reason and understand things. However, there was an elderly woman in my neighborhood with Alzheimer's who lived with a home attendant and no I am not going to say she was "happy" because that disability does affect your enjoyment of life but her quality of life was sufficient enough that she wanted to live and if allowed to make that decision would have. I know a friend with muscular dystrophy who says if things advance to the point where she is on a respirator and close to the end of her life, she'd rather it stop. But she enjoys life overall and has made that decision as a self determined individual. There was a friend of the family who knew he was going to die of cancer in six months and traveled the world and did everything he missed out on life but not everyone has that determination or that physical ability at the end of their life.
   I do know as for "end of life decisions" that its a tough call. My stepfather had multiple severe heart attacks and was clinically brain dead so it was a rough decision but life support was cut off. There was no brain activitiy. Terri Schivo was somewhere in between. She might not have been able to think but she could feel the sense of hunger or dehydration when they stopped the feeding tube, different from stopping a respirator. But if I had known it was her decision I would have respected it. That's why people should sign health care proxies with advanced directives. I'm not telling people what decision to make but let it be the one you would have wanted.
   As for Kevorkian there I must disagree because if you look up his artwork and music the man is obssessed with death and by the nature of his artwork perhaps a bit psychotic (look him up on Wikipedia and it has links to his website). But more importantly the vast percentage of the people he "assisted to die" only had clinical depression. Untreated people with clinical depression will want to kill themselves and its not a mentally rational decision. You can google "Detroit Free Press, Kevorkian". I understand why people would support some aspects of physician assisted suicide as long as it doesn't turn into euthanasia. I don't think, knowing this, that he should be the spokesperson. People can look up the article and make their own mind but the statistics as regards people with depression can be confirmed.

[jollyman069]

well i beleive iam a little closer to this subject because i have end stage renal failure and without dialysis 3 times a week i would be dead in about 10 to 14 days. there have been times when i have been so sick and scared that i truley thought that i could just end this miserable time of my life by stop going to dialysis, oi know that may seem dramatic but when your that sick and your life depends ona machine your mind gets a little goofy sometimes. But anyway there is somethiung inside me that says no that wouldnt be right or fair, now grant it i dont have a daease that is near as bad as LG but think about having to depend ona machine to live? which without the dialysis machine i wouldnt be around very long, there are about 80,000 people needing justa kidney transplant as i do and only 17,000 are done a year, so if i ever get so sick or end up with cancer or something really horrible like that i can end very easily just stop going to dialysis,which i know several at the center i go to have done. the drs put them in the hospiatl and keeps them comfortable,as they can untill the end happens. but the human will to live is very strong, so i guess i am a work in progress, hopefully i will get a kidney soon, but there is always the big if.

[MJIthewriter]

I already feel uneasy about the idea of assisted suicide, but airing it on TV like makes me cringe. There's something terribly wrong about that idea. It's not something I would ever want to watch...

[alienshadow]

Well you can thank good ol greedy producers for that

[beautifuldisaster486]

well, I feel that if it is someone who has lived a great life, and have many accomplishments, and they have been fighting for a while and are in lots of pain, they should have the right to decide whether or not to keep fighting for their life. But they should have to wait a certain amount of time before they are allowed to decide. Simple to the fact that doctors don't know everything. God works in mysterious ways. My life has never been in a great risks, but a little over a year ago, I was told after waking up from surgery, that I would never walk again....It was God's will and my determination that I was able to put my shoes on for the first time Mar. 2008. It took me a while, and I still have a slight limp, and I can't run yet, but the doctor told me that it was not medically possible, and all along, I told him...."you don't know me"  Im not trying to ramble, but what I am saying is that yes the equipment is all man made, and some people feel that it is against Gods will to have a machine to live for a patient...so what?? the equipement that man made, came from the brains that God made.

[Cherie762]

as diffidult as pain can be I personally believe suicide is a sin and if I was dying Id be quite concered about that

[Tuckamore]

I had a MVA some years ago. The doctor's did not expect me to survive do to the severe injuries. A seat belt severed me to the spine and severed my right leg in the groin to the bone. They prepared my family. Prayer chains were started. Multiple churches of all denominations prayed for my recovery. I obviously made it through the grace of God and His skilled team of medical professionals. I spent the better part of six months in a hospital but I lived.

I know pain. And there are no words to describe the pain that I endured during and following that MVA. You can't be hit by a loaded dump truck and not know what pain is. I beleive death is not our choice to make. It is a gift that He gave us and we have no right to destroy that gift. But this is just my opinion, my belief.  

[Janet535]

I firmly believe we should all have the right to make our own choices and not be dictated to by those that have different opinions to ours. ie: Quite simply, if you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. If you don't believe in Assisted suicide or Euthanasia, that is your right but don't impose what is right for you on others.

The word "Euthanasia" means "good death". And that is exactly what I want for myself.

I am sincerely hoping that the legislation that is currently under review in Australia and being termed "The Rights of the Terminally Ill Act" will be passed in the very near future. I would much rather be able to die,here at home, with dignity and surrounded by my loved ones.The alternative is to go to somewhere like Mexico and buy Nembutal and inject myself, alone in some dingy hotel room and die alone.

I know I am going to die in the near future, I don't know exactly when and I have no fear of dying but I do have an extreme fear of being put into palative care, lingering in pain and suffering, which could last weeks and weeks and having my family put through that ordeal.That is not what I want for myself or my loved ones. When the time is right, I want the option of being able to go on my own terms.  

Janet

[alienshadow]

I agree Janet

[beautifuldisaster486]

Janet I agree with you as well....I had a friend die of bone cancer a year ago. He had no family here...me and him were extremely close, and the bone cancer was in the late stages when he found out that he had it, he was very young, and it was so rapid...he found out he had bone cancer a month before he passed, the last three weeks of his life he spent in Hospice, with constant morphine. It was really tough to be there with him, but it was where I wanted to be. He couldn't communicate with the outside, but he knew I was there, and when I told him that I loved him, he would squeeze my hand. He wanted Euthanasia, but of course, he didnt get it. If it were up to me, I would have let him go on to Heaven. He was in so much pain, and agony....it was a terrible thing to see. Extreme cases like that deserve Euthanasia, everyone knew he wouldn't live more than two months, thats what the doctors gave him....fortunately, God called him home before the two months were up. I miss him so much, and there isnt a day that goes by I don't think of him. I know he is in a better place, and I can't wait to see him again

[MJIthewriter]

On the idea of assisted suicide I'm torn, because I know a little bit of what dementia and Alzheimer’s is like from what my mom shares with me. She works as a CNA and deals with people daily who cannot remember their friends, family, etc. They may suddenly lash out for no reason at all. They may suffer a lot of emotional pain. My dad told me numerous times that if he has to suffer, he rather die.  

But then I’m also stuck with the Christian moral ideals that life is a gift.  I hate to have to make a decision or pick a side.  My fear with the assisted suicide is that people will choose to take their life prematurely, before they may even know what may come.

Let’s say someone is in the midst of alcoholism. They hit rock bottom. That person may have had a chance at recovery but instead decided to cut themselves short that they were hopeless and had no chance.  Or say someone got severely injured in a car accident. That person can't move their limbs anymore. That person feels like their life is hopeless because that person wanted to be an athlete.  But if they didn't have the choice to end their life, maybe that person could have done other things with their life and found happiness that way. It’s a tough call.  I don’t know if humans can be the judge about life.

I don’t want to see something like that, but then again that is my opinion. Take or leave it.

[beautifuldisaster486]

thats why I said in my earlier post....there should be a minimum time limit...like they should wait 3 months (for example) just to see where the diesease takes them, and I think that it should be where they have to have machines keeping them alive, or extremly severe cases of alzheimer's disease or a disease where they just aren't capable of being who they used to be, or living the life that is somewhat bearable, normal. I used to work with the elderly, and there have been a few cases, where I'd leave there home in tears, where to me for them to be living, was just inhumane.

[jollyman069]

let me ask you all this question.. liuke i wrote earlier i am on idalysis and if i chose to stop getting dialysis treatments i would be dead in 10 to 14 days.. there is nothing my dr can do if i decided to stop my treatment..should there be a law saying that i cant stop my treatment.. i am only 47, and once i get a kidney and the transplant is sucessful i will have a normalk life again..so what do you all think, i know several people who decided that it just wasnt worth the misery anymore and the stopped thewir treatment, now they were older and had other health problems,, pretty tough question huh??

[AndiJ78]

I believe it is a choice for you, Jolly.

Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia are not classifed on the assisted suicide list either. They normally have no clue about what is going on and are unaware of their behavior. Again, this is for people who are suffering and well aware of that suffering.

Again, it is all too easy for those who have never been there or witnessed it firsthand to make a decision for someone else. I am pro-choice in all areas. It is not me who is suffering in that bed, it is not up to me to decide when they can end it, nor should it be up to any of you.

[Amphitrite]

If someone wants to end their life due to suffering from a terminal illness it's their decision. Whether they do it before the suffering overtakes them or whether they wait unto the suffering gets to be too much to live through.

There are difference in terminal illness. If there is a way to maintain life howevere often the treatmnet must be administered than there is no reason to end your life. Assisted suicde and taling suicide into your own hands should only be done when there is no treatment which can keep someone alive and death is inevedable with suffering that no human should have to live through.

Whether I would do it or not, I couldn't say unless I was there. It's nice to think you would tough it out or that ou would decide to take fate into your own hands and let yourself die with what you feel is dignity. But until you're there I truely believe there is no way to know what you will do. I don't think any of us could know what it's like to have an illness that has absolutly no treatment to keep you alive. It;s emotionally and physically difficult enough to have an illness that can be terminal or to have an illness that isn't terminal but that will mean you suffer physcially for life.
But to know you have an illness that no one can stop and that will cause you to suffer until you die and no one can do anything but make you as comfortabel as possible which really isn't comfort because the pain and emotional toll is too much...that's a while different level of suffering that a human being can't understand until they're living it.

I'm okay with assisted suicide. I'm not okay with exploiting someones death and taking away their dignity or for someone to decide to put their own death on TV.
No matter how much morality comtinues to be lost in modern society...some things should remian always scared and someone's last breath is one of those things.

[alienshadow]

Yeah I dont understand why a family would allow there loved ones death to be recorded and then put on TV.

[beautifuldisaster486]

yea thats crazy to me too, Just like the TV show Jon and Kate plus 8.....why would anyone want there personal life aired on TV?? I just don't get it. For something like Jon&Kate, they have the cameras in there life on Christmas, and everything.....that should be personal moments that are private and sacred, not the be broadcast through millions of homes, and re-runs galore

[Beachwalker33]

After seeing my Pap(grandpa) following a stroke I think it should be up to the patient and family.Its seen as humane to put an animal to sleep so they don't suffer,what's the difference?It hurts to see someone you love a vegetable.My Pap was a control freak,to see him lose all control I know was the worst position he could be in.Nothing's worse then seeing someone you love in pain and suffering,don't you all agree?But,I was always told that if one takes their own life they wouldn't go to heaven?But this is a bit different.I'm torn.To air it on tv is just disgusting.Did anyone see the man in the electric chair broadcasted,very poor taste..

[jollyman069]

i told my kids that if i ever would get to the point that i couldnt care for myself, needed someone to do evrything for me and i mean everything then i want either a whole bunch of pills or someone to put a pillow over my face . being like that is not being alive.. i know people say that is wrong but what baout the QUALITLY of life.. doesnt that count for anything i am sure that Beachwalkers grandfather didnt want to be in that position i know i wouldnt

[have 2 kids]

Huntington's runs in my husbands family.   If my husband and children get this disease
would I like them to be able to die peacfully instead of suffering,  YES.    Do I think it's right for this kind of thing to be aired on tv?   ABSOLUTELY NOT.    As someone said above why is it ok to put our animals to sleep so they don't suffer but yet we can't do this for humans.

[Amphitrite]

Someone aired an execution? That's beyond disgusting.
I'm sickened by our society when I hear things like that.

[alienshadow]

People will air anything. What about the young guy the other week who committed suicide on the net and that web site didnt do anything about it hell millions watched that. He took a bunch of pills and went to sleep after he gave a long speech

[MJIthewriter]

That's just sick what people will watch... I'm glad I have not seen that.  Either way, I stated already, there's something terrible about the idea of showing off real death purposfully on TV...

May as well take us back to the Roman ages with the gladiator fights, etc...sick, sick, sick...

[jollyman069]

hey alein??...where are you seeing all this stuff, heck i thougfht i spent alot of time online???

[alienshadow]

Lets see
1) Usa Today
2) Local news paper
3) Aol.com
4) Gossip LMAO

[alienshadow]

MIAMI (Reuters) - A Florida teenager committed suicide by drug overdose in front of a webcam streaming live video to the Internet and some viewers may have egged him on, authorities said on Friday.

Abraham Biggs Jr., 19, was found in the bedroom of his home in Pembroke Pines, Florida, on Wednesday and an autopsy showed he died of a toxic combination of opiates and benzodiazepine, a drug used to treat anxiety and insomnia, the Broward County Medical Examiner's Office said.

"We have ruled it a suicide. Part of the terminal event was recorded on a website and there was streaming video," said Dr. Steve Cina, deputy chief medical examiner of Broward County.

[dominosarah]

That one was all over the news.  How sad........

[ILADVOCATE]

  I understand your personal perspective but it used to be against the law to commit suicide. And suicide is often a part of depression. People who try to commit suicide who have no rational reason to do so are often undergoing severe depression. They need psychiatric help.
   The question is should someone have a rational reason to commit suicide and then at point is it immoral. I can't see immorality in suicide if its a desperate person at the end of their life and if they can make the decision based on the fact that they are experiencing unbearable suffering that cannot be relieved by medical means than I can't say it is irrational. I would say "immoral' could apply to the fact that in Oregon a person who had cancer couldn't get coverage for life sustaining chemotherapy but was offered coverage for the "right to die". The choice should never be presented that way, ever.

[ILADVOCATE]

Well I would just add one part to people who would make a decision based on being "totally dependent". It depends what that means. It used to be common for people who were elderly to live out their life with their families and their families supporting them completely at the end as they had done for their children and it should be that way now and for those who don't there should be home attendant coverage. That is essential. A close friend's grandmother had advanced Parkinsons' and when she was at work, a home attendant took care of her needs. I can't say she didn't suffer because she did and Parkinson's is not just a movement disorder, she had dementia at the end but she did want to live. But people said when she did pass away eventually that it was for the best because her suffering was over and even my friend couldn't disagree. And if her grandmother had wanted to end her life I could have understood it.
   But I do feel just as people raise their children that they should provide back for them when they are grown in times of old age or physical disability and with the assistance of a home attendant that's often possible. Regardless of how one feels the worst place to die is in a hospital or nursing home. People need to go to the hospital in an emergency and can die there if they are incurably ill. But I don't believe nursing homes are a good way to spend the end of your life and die there as well. I've ensured that all of my elderly relatives remain at home with home attendant care. And with their quality of life preserved, I do believe if they required a ventilator to live or had some extreme suffering that could not be releived and chose to have it stopped I'd respect it. I've also known people who were friends of the family who made the use of hospices. That takes the burden off family members but provides relief for suffering.

[jollyman069]

you made avery good point about the nursing homes. last janauary my monmm who had alzheimers was being taken care of by my dad at home. she got sick so we took her to the hospoital and they did xrays,and so on, well we found out she had stage 4 lung cancer i ver rapidly  and agressive moving cancer..well when the dr released her from the hospital he wouldnt let her come home  but to the nursing home..said she need around the clock nursing care, she got very very ill and within 2 two weeks had passed away, i thank god she didnt suffer long and that she didnt have to lie in a nursing home for a long period of time.. in there in most cases the person dies with no dignity

[ILADVOCATE]

The reason is because its "physician assisted suicide". There were abuses in the medical field such as the Tuskagee Syphillis (syphilis) scandal. And sterilization of people with disabilities. Only a few members of the medical profession partipated in such atrocities. But there had to be regulations. And there still have to be. From the beginning the hypocratic oath said "Physician do no harm". But in this case people are saying assisting the person to die is helping them. But if a doctor participates they are an active part of the end of the life of someone who wouldn't have otherwise died. Not just witnessing their death. I do think in some areas there should be further regulations. Such as in the glycine study I am in, in some of the official studies people including children are taken off psychiatric medication and given ketamine to make them psychotic as part of a "challenge" study. Then the glycine is given after its insured the person is psychotic to have accurate results. I can't agree with that.
   So working in the medical field, you've been in an emergency room I'm sure and seen the end of people's lives. And seen people who were in such severe agony that they wanted to die and couldn't. But could you say that you would want to be an active participant in it and if you could wouldn't you want to make sure someone else who was potentially unethical couldn't abuse that privelege?

[dominosarah]

My mother is currently residing in a nursing home.  My brother and i had absolutely NO CHOICE and dont you dare even tell me that we did.  Home attendants could not take care of my mother and her needs.  It is up to the family members who have relatives in these homes to stay on top of their care, to play an active role in their lives, to ask questions, to go to their care conferences etc.  When my mother passes on she will go with dignity.  My brother and i took care of her while my dad was dying of brain cancer.  Her disease has rendered her incapable of everything.  We stepped in and took over the role but sometimes we have no choice.  Yes many people are thrown in those homes and left to die but decent people dont do that.  I am one of those decent people.     sara

[ILADVOCATE]

I certainly wouldn't say that all nursing homes are abusive or that all family members who have relatives in a nursing home are doing the wrong thing. I was more speaking about older people who could live at home or especially younger people such as a former co-worker who had quadroplegia and was almost complete paralyzed from an accident and was in his 30's and was in a long term extended care facility at the beginning from what he told us and they intended to keep him there but he with assistance left and worked as the financial manager for the place and with modifications drove a van and also raised a family. There will always be people who can't live in the community. I was concerned for the ones who can. Actually an elderly aunt and uncle of mine live in an assisted living facility together and they made that decision and they are happy there. But they have to pay out of pocket which they can afford with their savings. I visited the place. Its very nice and well run. But the ones that are funded with government money may not be. I've visited some as well. As I said there will always be people who can't live in the community and wherever they are, family members who are supportive. That's the important thing.

[Amphitrite]

My opinion is based more on having a terrible illness which is completely untreatable and will end in inevetable death after physically suffering to an extent none of us could understand.
Not about suicide when there is medical treatment still left or nursing homes. Suicide isn't a free "whever I feel like it opition".

But of someone has come to the end of their life without question and feels it will bring them some dignity who am I to say it's wrong.
I struggle everday from pain and some days am stuck laying on the couch unable to get up and participate in the outside world. That's hard enough, bit doable because I know there are medicines and treatments left for me.
If I knew I had one year left to live and there were no medicines to even touch the pain and I had to struggle to breath everyday...I might just feel it was time to free myself.

But I can't sat for sure. I can only say what it's like for my physical suffering and know for someone that's close to dying with no more options to even live the rest comfortably..well, that has to be a suffering none of us can even comprehend realisticly.

Suicide is still illegal, it's a crime to kil yourself and I agree with that..unless your time on this earth has come to an end on it's own physically. Whether two months left or tonight...if someone feels it's better one way or the other who are we to tell them it's not.

I've heard you don't go to heaven when you kill yourself. But I truely believe that applies to those who kill themselves out of anger and manipulation and Selfishness. Like for instance, your signifigant other leaves so your going to show them what they've done by leaving...
But I don't believe God condems those who've suffered unspeakable amounts if they feel it's time to go home to him. Maybe they get a shake of the head from him...But I don't believe he'll throw ya into the depths of hell for it.

Heck if I didn't believe that then I'd have to live with believing my sister was codemed to an eternity of suffering. She already did that here. I don't agree with what she did. But now that it's done I can't keep punishing her memory or myself by condeming her for it. And if she found it too impossible to go on I can't even imagine what it's like to add unspeakable physical suffering to that.

[ILADVOCATE]

I think its important that it be clarified. Suicide is not illegal anymore. Physician assisted suicide is but not in Oregon and now Washington. People who try to commit suicide are usually hospitalized. You've probably dealt with people like that as a psychologist or at least after they were hospitalized. If its part of depression or bpd its not a rational act. If a person were on the proper medication they would never have done it to begin with.
   The only thing I find immoral is when someone actively promotes the idea as the right choice. People should make up their own mind and when they are not in a state of depression or anything else that would affect their judgement. Or when people are sympathetic to cases of "mercy killing". I think its merciless. There have been times someone killed their severely disabled child "out of sympathy" and its still an act of murder regardless and I don't think that was the real motive. As for this case, I let the disability advocacy group I am on know about it and I'm following the links but its done already. The man didn't commit suicide in Britain. He committed suicide in Switzerland and I believe their law goes so much further than the ones in Washington or Oregon (that the group opposes but I'll respect people's opinions on here) that its euthanasia. And I can't agree with that. And I don't think most medical professionals here would either.

[alienshadow]

Okay enough enough you guys can say all you want to. When its you  (not someone else) That has been told you are going to die thats when the shoe is on the other foot! Dont tell me you wont find god and let him in your heart if hes not there so that you will be saved!
Who wants to lay there and suffer and take chemo or 80 pills a day just to fight something that has no cure? Plus think of all the pain and suffering involved in the final stages. What if you are a vegetable? Do you want to just lay there? What would be the point?
I want a fast death if I know I am dieing I will say my goodbyes to my family. I will make it clear I dont want to suffer!I will make it clear I dont want to be on a machine that keeps me alive! I will make it clear not to shed tears about my decision! I will make it clear to remember the good times we had!!!!  I will make it clear to respect my decision and not try and override it!!

When God reaches down and puts his hand on my right shoulder there is no Dr in this world that can SAVE me!!!!!!!!!!

[dominosarah]

AMEN!!!

[zodiacqueen]

I agree with you 120%!  But, what in the world did you mean by

-direct quote-

"Suicide is still illegal, it's a crime to kil yourself and I agree with that"

No intention of being evil or nasty, but that comment made me laugh!  I don't get that statement at all.  How is suicide illegal?????  What I'm getting from this, is that if you KILL yourself you are breaking the law????  Does that mean that you will be arrested and jailed for life or given the death penalty?

[Amphitrite]

LOL,  I think it's funny too! But what it really means is that if you attempt suicide and fail you then have broke the law. But mainly they would be put into a psychiatric facility to watch over them and get them some help.

Maybe they would decide to give the person a fine or something like that..I don't know about that end of ot legally. But I dount there would be any jail time:)

I'm pretty sure it's still illegal...Maybe the law has changed?? I always found it to be a strange law to make as if that's going to be a deciding factor if someone really wants to end their lives.
It must not be in the UK though or else they would arrest the person assisting the mans death?? Maybe..who knows I'm confusing myself, LOL

[Amphitrite]

okay,,,cleared up, suicide in no longer illegal. It was a silly law to begin with. Anyone who;s at that despereat and hopeless moment wasn't going to take the law into consideration.
BUT the part of it being illegal which was a benefit is that it made involentary hospitalization easier. When the cops show up to bring you to the hospital because you're threatning to kill yoursel..there's no if ands or but's about it. Your going.
They can still do that regardless of the legal law. If someone is suicial they have no choice but to be hospitalized at least for a hold to be watched for 72 hours.
But my saying it was a silly law doesn't mean I agree that people should be able to kill themselves whenever for whatever reason.
Suicide can be the result of many mental illnesses and for snap judgement emotions that seem too overwhelming to have to keep living through.
Suicide is never the answer. Suicide is acceptable IMHO when someone has reached the end of their life and the suffering is a suffering that none of us can possibly understand.
To me that's not suicide. It's someone deciding how they would like to go at the end. They could either suffer physically until their last breath pr they can fall asleep peacefullty and feel they were able to keep their dignity.
It's a personal choice. Many have choosed to live naturally until the end and I'm sure more than we know have not and took the time and date into their own hands.

It's heartbreaking either way. But to me not immoral or sinful

[MJIthewriter]

I've heard different stories. For some people with terminal illnesses, they ride it through the end and remain optimistic. For others, it's nothing but agony and torture.

[Burrpatch]

Hmmmmm...Whenever this subject comes up, I start to think of the 1973 Movie "Soylent Green" with Charlton Heston. I remember being horrified as an old and depressed Edward G. Robinson (who played Heston's dad) calmly walked into a nice air conditioned government building, greeted the pretty nurse on duty and after signing his name was shown to a comfortable room.  They put him in a nice clean bed and asked him what his favorite color was. "Orange", he replied. Favorite Music ? "Classical", he said with a wry grin. They hooked him to a machine (I think) and quietly left the room. The room took on an orange glow and  classical music started to play as a wide screen in front of him showed image's of deer playing in the forest, waterfalls and other earthly beauty's as he comfortably slipped away ..........

[MJIthewriter]

Your post reminded me of a book I read. The Giver by Lois Lowry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Giver

Has anyone read that story?  I don't want to spoil it, but peopel wouldn't get very old before they'd be "released".  If a baby was born with some kind of defect or a twin, it'd be "released".  If someone committed a crime, they'd be "released".

In The Giver, they also took away things supposidly unimportant like animals, the ability to see color, feel love, and what not.

[Burrpatch]

Yes, excellent MJI. That's exactly the way I view "The State". lol !!  My new name for them .... "The Giver"....... from the cradle to the grave. Give them the power to deem who dies and you risk corruption. No, you ensure it !! Absolute power corrupts absolutely. ...and the ability to have a say in who dies is power at its most absolute !!  lol ... don't mind me folks, I want the ability to choose when I've had enough suffering. I just don't think the clowns in Washingtoon should have any say in it !! Screw 'em...  Free the people !! Viva Revolution !! lol
                                                                                               ... Burrrrrpatch

[dominosarah]

You got it dude!!!!

[alienshadow]

I agree burpatch

[MJIthewriter]

Sure is scary... Makes me wonder what ever happened to the true concept of democracy. Nor do I think it should be up to one person to decide what wars we fight with countries that weren't really our enemies...

That book shows government/society at its worst.  They have one person who is trusted with all the memories of the past to keep people from having to remember history. People feel no pain, and there is no suffering, but there is also no joy, no true feelings, and no true life as we know it.  A bit of fantasy maybe, but certainly not a good way that things are heading.

[lonewolf07]

Recently, I saw a documentary about a woman with ALS.  She made the decision to "self euthanize".  Sorry but I don't consider a person choosing to end their life as necessarily being suicide.  This woman went through all the suffering a person with ALS goes through - her mind was aware that her body was no longer working.  When she reached a point at which death was imminent she had a dr "euthanize" her by injection.

Was she a coward or a brave woman - I don't know.  What the documentary portrayed was a woman who made her own decision to end her own life.  Was the documentary slanted in  a particular way?  Probably.  Would I do what this woman did.  I don't know.  It is frightening to think that someone could have the control to end our lives when we became "inconvenient" but it is also in a perverse way good to know that if we can't deal with horrific diseases like ALS that we have a choice.  I doubt we could make it alone and would need to justify it in some way.  This doesn't even begin to address the moral aspect that different cultural and religious groups would have.

This isn't the governmental context that MJ is addressing; it's the individual one.  There was a movie which I can't remember the name of in which a tidal wave was going to hit the USA and wipe out almost everybody.  Who did the government decide to sacrifice?  Everyone over the age of 50 with certain exceptions.  Now THAT is frightening.  But I digress.

[MJIthewriter]

Another question that comes to mind and I can see it going either way. I don't really have a point or any motive for asking this question, other than I notice different ideology:

When a pet gets seriously ill and can't live a life without suffering and pain, it is considered okay to euthanaze the pet.  It’s praised by pet owners to be morally right.

If it's a human doing the suffering then it's a bit different.

As far was where my opinion on this whole thing. I don’t know...  I still believe life is something to be valued as much as possible. My religion and culture put emphasis on how valuable life is, but on the same token I haven’t suffered the extreme pain and suffering someone terminally ill has. Given the choice to die would likely be a far easier decision if I was put in that circumstance.  But still if it were made legal and acceptable, imagine what government could do to corrupt it....

[Janet535]

Suicide in Australia and Great Britain was also considered illegal. The laws have been modified somewhat now so that in the event a person who tried to commit suicide and did not succeed could be taken into custody and give the proper medical assistance they need to help them. (Just as you wrote in your thread regarding the laws in the US).

But a person committing suicide because of depression or such is an entirely different scenario to what is being called "Assisted Suicide". That is illegal in Australia and Great Britain. If the wife had of helped her husband in either of these two countries she would with out a doubt be arrested and charged with a crime. Going by recent events, there is also little doubt that she would serve jail time.

That is the reason why she and her husband left the UK and went abroad to a country that did not deem it illegal. When she returns to the UK she can not be charged with a crime because she did not commit one there. Though that's not to say they may not try.

Essentially that was the reason the video tape was made. It was meant to show that "Assisted Suicide" was a peaceful way to end ones life when there is no hope. There is more to the video, actually it is a full documentary of the man and what he has gone through and how he came to the very difficult decision he did. There is also interviews with doctors and specialist's that confirm his condition will only deteriorate until he is in a totally vegetable state. Ultimately, it was made to help persuade government to change the laws.

But of course, as with most things the media aired and viewed it out of its full context.

Someone wrote earlier on this thread, something to the effect of "making this video was disgusting". The actual reason for the video is far from disgusting. What is disgusting is how the media made it into something it wasn't.

What needs to be remembered is, the Real reason people want Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia made legal. And it certainly isn't to enable perfectly healthy people to end their life just because they are having a bad day or those suffering from depression or any other such illness. It is intended for those that need it and make that choice if and when a choice needs to be made.  

In a perfect world, we wouldn't need such laws but we don't live in a perfect world. But I would hope that we still live in a world with compassion and I hope that when it is time, I am extended that compassion.

[MJIthewriter]

Thank you for explaining the context. That makes more sense now, but still I have lots to ponder over with the concept. It's not one to be taken lightly.

[bet643]

Ending one life is never easy. I was just in a situation where my dad was on life support. He was on it for awhile until his wife was able to find his legal papers that said do not resusitate.. It was so hard to watch him suffer, yet we were so upset that his wife could not wait for all  us to get a flight out in time, so she pulled the plug. Never got to say goodbye.  I had talked to my dad just a few hours before his passing. So I was lucky in that sense, but my brothers never got the chance. Though everyone is upset with not holding off waiting for his children to arrive, in a way, it was a blessing. His organs were shutting down, he could no longer function. I've watched him over the years, just waiting for the time to come. It was hard to travel back and forth by plane, sometimes drove for 24 hours. He is resting in peace now. He never got his dual transplant, never got to see his children before he died. With spending the past 3 yrs. in the hospital, the quality of life was not there anymore. The pain he suffered. I wish that on no one. I believe it should be ones choice on how to end their suffering. I don't know how he went so long, his body swelling, kidneys shutting down, liver failing, pancreas and finally his heart. How I wished we had Dr. Kovorkian. He was in just so much pain. It was hard to watch. I just would not air it on t.v. That is a private matter and it should be kept between the patient and family. Though who knows, because I do support it, I may change my mind about the t.v. part.

[ILADVOCATE]

I understand the pain of the experience you are describing but I don't think Dr. Kevorkian would have been the one that could have brought your father out of that pain. He is not on a humanistic mission if you read what I said in that the majority of the lives of people he ended had clinical depression. I do agree your father should have had the right to end his life at that point as should anyone. I think that allowing a person to do so is certainly within reason and their choice though a hospice is a good choice as well and there should be no restrictions on pain medication for people at the end of their life even if it hastens it but laws about that were voted down by legislators.
   It is a person's right if their life declines to that point to take their life and physician assisted suicide is a step further but one of concern but active euthanasia is not something we want to return to. If you look up the history of the euthanasia movement and when it was allowed and why it was made illegal you would see why. I'm sure there's a compromise in between and if the Pain Management Bill had been passed then doctors would not have worried about arrests for neccessary pain relieving medications for people at the end of their life and yes it might have taken some people closer to death but that was their choice. I think that's a law any supporters of this could all agree on whatever we disagree on the rest and it should have been passed.

[lonewolf07]

MJ - I don't consider euthanizing an animal to be "morally right".  Some people do it without thinking.  As a Native person, I waited for my cat to "tell me" (I believe animals can communicate) before euthanizing him.  He wanted to go - just like some people want to go.  After it was done, I felt like a murderer.  Who am I to decide when to euthanize him.

Interesting as this thread is, I did my dissertation on a similar topic and find I can't comment without feeling like a nerd and looking for references and precedents so I'm gone - to the joy and delight of ....

[MJIthewriter]

That's why I feel so uncertain about the matter of taking an animal's life, even if it is time to go.  These are some really tough questions and I'm glad you posted.

Your comments are welcome here.
I'm saying though what I've seen in other communities about animals and pets.

[ILADVOCATE]

Look for our family it was a tough decision when our pet cat was at the end of her life but it had to happen because she was in severe pain and had end stage cancer. I feel less comfortable with the idea of euthanasia in people especially when a person is referred to as a "vegetable". A person remains a person throughout their life regardless of functioning. I had older relatives who were ignorant refer to a cousin of mine with Rett's Syndrome, a severe developmental disability who can't verbally communicate but understands things with that term and I had to educate them not to.
  As to a person who genuinely has lost all brain activity and is clinically "brain dead" at that point most people would disconnect their respirator as I said. When its a feeding tube that's an issue because they will feel the sense of dehydration or malnutrition. The best idea as I said is an "advanced directive" so we know exactly what the person would have wanted, either way. As for helping them along in some way when they are functional it remains a problem of where to draw the line. A physician actively injecting them with something that will kill them is not something I could accept and is not allowed in Oregon or Washington. As for giving them enough prescriptions to end their life, that still remains complex.
  I think the Pain Management Act if passed would have allowed the person to have enough medications as to not experience the severe pain that we are discussing and probably considering the effects of those it would have hastened the end of their life. I'm not sure why considering the support for physician assisted suicide that never passed because a person shouldn't have to be in severe pain at the end of their life whether they want to live or die regardless and doctors shouldn't be afraid to prescribe them what they need.