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Educate me - opinions on Socialized Health Care...???
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Educate me - opinions on Socialized Health Care...???

My oldest son works 35 hours a week; goes to college; and makes $7.50 per hour.  He is trying to save money to pay for books, gas to go to work, car insurance, etc., and told me the other day that his employer is going to let the part-time people get health insurance.  It will be $85 per week for single coverage.  That would leave him with about $100 and he doesn't think he can afford it.  I have explained the cost for actually getting sick....he just can't afford it.  (breaks my heart).

He is adamant (you guys think that I am a liberal - whoah boy!), that the healthcare system in the state that it is is groteseque and insist that socialized health care is the only humane method for everyone to be able to have insurance.  

Educate me....   I see where he's coming from, but I have heard horror stories about it and want to be able to help him understand and CONVINCE him that he can and should have insurance...(I offered to pay 1/2 and he refused on "priniciple"....

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599170_tn?1300977493
just about your son,,sounds like you raised one heck of a great boy, maybe you can sneak and help him, fill his car up , maybe pay one of his bills when they come in, he will be a good man with the values he has. Dont have a good answer on the health care , I really see pros and cons to both,,one thing for sure your right a simple injury or illness can run into thousands of dollers,,,,one of my friends with no insurance got hit in the knee with a soft ball and it cost him several thousand, you just never know what could happen
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611067_tn?1279065256
I see more cons than pros for socialized medicine.  But, I agree that if he has the option that somehow he should get the insurance.  My SIL just broke her ankle in 3 places and had a major surgery and stayed in the hospital a couple days.  I'm sure all her bills will probably come out to be around $20K and her insurance hadn't kicked in yet where we work.  
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599170_tn?1300977493
prices are ridiculous,,my son had a simple "wedge" biopsy on leg had to be put out cost to insurance,,2k,, my hysterectomy was 35k but I had the DaVinci Robotic assisted,,husbands trip to er for kidney stones  $ 400. all they did was shot him up with pain meds...ridiculous. My father in laws quad by pass ten years ago 200k...I think socialised med would bring these examples of outlandish prices down for the gov,  Im just a bit worried about wait time,,,Im not a patient person if I need a surgery I want it soon,.etc...
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285927_tn?1380802356
My daughter has insurance. Her 3 yr old had to have tubes put in his ears and she had to pay her part up front before the procedure. He had the procedure done and somehow there was an extra amount pop up that they say she owes. Now she cannot get a follow up on the surgery until she pays this 50-60 extra dollars. She has 2 other children that have had to c the doc and she cannot pay right now. So much for insurance!

FYI, What the prez is contemplating is not socialized health care. It is a single pay method. You choose your own docs etc. If you like what you have now, keep it, however he does want to do away with things like the pre-existing clause among duplicated tests, etc.

To the original poster. Even if your son does manage to pay for the premiums, check to see what the coverage would be. He could end up paying up to 50% in some cases or the deductable could be so high that he would never be able to afford the care on what he makes anyway, or could run into what my daughter has, paying up front for your part. Just a fyi.
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Avatar_f_tn
That's what he is running into - the insurance is pitiful.  He would end up paying almost $400 a month (which is a drop in the bucket if he actually had a major event), and it pays VERY little in terms of coverage.  

I have offered to pay 1/2 of the premium (I want him to pay 1/2 so he won't have sticker shock when he DOES start paying), and he refuses that.  I do help him with gas money for school, tuition, etc., but he is adamant that the health care system is corrupt, and won't be a part of it!  (young people)....

He and I both are Obama supporters and I think his plan is going to be good, if it ever passes.  Most likely the drug companies and doctor's groups won't allow it to happen.
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285927_tn?1380802356
Just seems to me, we are not getting what we are paying for so it is not working. If ya pay in all those premiums and still cannot get healthcare then what good is it doing except feeding the insurance companies. I just do not see where the current system is working even for those who have it. If I dont pay for my car insurance or health premiums and put that into an account for health care, It would be just as effective in my lowly opinion. If I had all the money I have paid to these crooks, I would be sittin pretty right now.

cowgirlnerd, check availabilty for your son thru other healthcare agencies. He could choose to just get major medical and would probably be better off that way. Being a college student he ought to qualify for some kind of discount.
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535822_tn?1389452880
The best truest way to find out about the health care system run by big government is to google it an put In UK ...the same that has happened there will happen here, they ration it, no mamograms till you are over 50 even if you have family who have it,  or go pay your self to get it done if you can, got 2ndstage breast cancer go pound sand or pay 20.000 Pounds abott $ 37.000 for treatment or fly somewhere else.... or die..Make an appt to see a Doctor ..depends where you live may get one 2 weeks later, waiting for tests my Bro waited 6 weeks or more to hear if he had prostate cancer, he doesnt ,If you have a good job like my daughter you take out private health care.. ever heard of it same as we have here. Oh yes plenty of government handouts for those who just want to hang around and get paid but they arent too much ...to live on as food and all goods cost a small fortune Gas 3 times what we pay, ....I could go on and on..google it for more .Its a really good thing and yes will will be getting it, sounds like a Fait accomplis...
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285927_tn?1380802356
margy, So we will stay with what we have now and pay all those big bucks to the insurance companies that will not pay for the care and the doctors who will not see your child for followup cause you owe the 50.00 bucks the insurance did not pay! I would love to hear your suggestions to this big delimma we got here! Got any?
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535822_tn?1389452880
Sorry if I sounded cynical but I escaped it, its hillarious that like so many legal immigrants we are going full circle.,whilst Europe is going the way of Capitalism..
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535822_tn?1389452880
No teko I am not going to get into a battle over it with you it is a fait accomplis ..no point ...I had to get something in.. as it seemed to be all one sided as usual.There are other suggestions out there about health care here that dont involve big government  I am sure cow girl nerd can google it, Its a mute point it will happen... there is no voice to stop it...
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285927_tn?1380802356
I am not going to battle with anyone, and politics aside, I am genuinely interested in knowing what you perceive the solution to be.  I know where you stand on the political arena, you make that clear in every post. I am truly curious as to your thoughts about what we need to do to make it possible for all to have affordable health care in this country. I am truly listening. And what are you talking about one sided? We are talking the pros and cons of the existing health care.
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285927_tn?1380802356
Socialized health care is not going to go over here, this I will agree with. However, we do need an alternative to what we have now for those who cannot for whatever reason afford or get coverage due to high risk. What plans are composed remains to be seen but from what I understand a single payor method is being looked at. Keep what ya got now with the doc wanted or, for those like me who cannot get it due to high risk, the other plan will be made available. At least that is the talk thus far. I personnally hope they come up with something cause right now I cannot afford my inhaler that costs me 200.00 a month and no insurance company will touch me or my husband since his employer discontinued carrying the insurance, therefore no doc will see us either. I am really truly wanting options and if anyone has a solution, please tell me.
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285927_tn?1380802356
Margy, I re read what I wrote and it sounded even to me, too harsh. I did not mean it to come across in such a way but the situation here at home is stressful to say the least regarding this subject. It is scarey to think that if something happened to me, I could not get help. I respect and enjoy reading your opinions and should not take it personally. Sorry to you and all who posted here. Im going to my corner now! :(
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535822_tn?1389452880
Well it was my own fault as I knew it would come back at me..I really am my own worst enemy.I am not going to fight a lost battle anyway,you are more eloquant than I.
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285927_tn?1380802356
Well, No You Are Not!!!!!  You are very intelligent, and loving, with your own opinions. this ones on me! And you could well be right, who knows! Time will tell. Going to get a drink now! (sigh)
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535822_tn?1389452880
He he.... I wish I could be right but I doubt it, the way you guys are so pursuasive I could be bowing to the annointed one soon..,no no stop it marg, ...that'll get someone having a go at me...see what I mean.,no finesse .....
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793305_tn?1303671818
I have heard people from Canada who say they love their nationalized insurance and I have heard that people in France like theirs.  But the people of the states has become so brainwashed to believe that we have the only good medical system in the world.  But it's up to us to pay for all research and developement, therefore we pay higher costs in prescriptions and folks in Canada and other parts of the world can get the same prescriptions for a lot less.  My parents could get their meds cheaper from Canada than they could in Iowa.  Mom was paying more than 600.00 a month.  From Canada just over 200.00...which would you want to pay?  So what happens?  The government says we can't get our drugs from over the border any more.  They can't guarantee the safety of the drugs...Does that mean we sell inferior drugs to other countries....there's a terrifying thought...What gives?  Well none of us believes that...but pharmeceuticals and other medical procedures are big bucks in the US.  and big business does not want it to go away.  And if you want to politicize it??? trust me congress folks on both sides of the aisle are getting a lot of money from pharmeceutical companies.  

Me?  surgeon fee 2400.00 plus.
one night over in the hospital...pretty much just watching me?  over $24,000.00.  I could've stayed in a motel and paid a nurse to watch me for a lot less.  LOL
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793305_tn?1303671818
You might have your son look into an independent source.  My daughters boyfriend gets his thru something like farm bureau?  I think he pays less than 300.00 month (you don't have to be a farmer)  A company like that may be able to attach him to a group insurance.  There may be several out there, but that might be a good place to start a google...A cooperative of some kind....
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Avatar_f_tn

The World Health Organization rated France as having the best healthcare. Of course the healthcare in France is "socialized" medicine. Canada is the worst example for socialized medicine and that is why people often mention Canada.

Japan has an interesting healthcare system. Do a google search for more information.
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518031_tn?1295578974
My 2 cents worth is only worth that..I have read, that say someone in my situation, needing a kidney transplant, that the wait is close to 10 years, well I have been on dialysis almost 6 years now. But I have read were it is very hard to get approved for something like dialysis, again don't knoiw if it is true just what I have read. If that is true then someone with kidney failure would have a good chance of dying if they can not get on dialysis.Also have read it is hard to get, bypass done, cancer treatments done. So I am not sure what the answere is, seems as if any program has it pros and cons. There are way to many adults and worst yet children that have no health care here in the US. The bad things is as much money that has been spent to save the banks and other private companies where will the gov't get the money to fund a national health care system????
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Avatar_m_tn
The following article mentions renal transplant and dialysis. It's at the end Jollyman.
I provided a link to the entire article and I think it is worth a read.
It's at Medscape which requires registration but it's free and easy to register and well worth the time.

From:  
Fact and Fiction: Debunking Myths in the US Healthcare System
    Umut Sarpel, MD; Bruce C. Vladeck, PhD; Celia M. Divino, MD; Paul E. Klotman, MD
    Authors and Disclosures
    Published: 06/06/2008

See:   http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/573877_1


Myth 1: The US Healthcare System Is the Best in the World

"This idea has been called the alpha myth because it is fundamentally the root of all other myths.[1] It is the straightforward belief that Americans have access to the highest quality healthcare available in the world. A different way to present this myth is to state that citizens in other countries experience long waits for healthcare, that they must rely on generalists, and that they suffer worse outcomes as a result......"

".......In the year 2000, the World Health Organization (WHO) dedicated its annual World Health Report to a comparison of healthcare across the globe.[4] In this exhaustive analysis, American superiority was not borne out: the United States ranked 32nd for infant survival, 24th for life expectancy, and 54th for fairness. The fairness ranking was derived from a comparison of the individual financial contribution required with the quality of healthcare received. The current US system is known as a regressive system; that is, the poor pay relatively more for healthcare. In fact, the poorest fifth of Americans spend 18% of their income on healthcare, whereas the richest fifth of Americans spend about 3%.[5] In this type of regressive system, it is clear why about 50% of personal bankruptcies in the United States are related to medical bills.[6] Tragically, 75% of individuals declaring medical bankruptcy had medical insurance at the onset of their illness.[6] Overall, the WHO ranked the United States 37th in the world....."

"Similar results were found by the Commonwealth Fund in a recently released scorecard on the performance of the US health system.[7] Outcomes in the United States were compared against those achieved by top countries or the top 10% of US states, hospitals, or other providers. The scorecard evaluated multiple indicators of health outcomes, including mortality, life expectancy, and the prevalence of health conditions that limit the capacity of adults to work or children to learn. The average ratio score for the United States was a 69 out of a possible 100.[7] The United States ranked 15th out of 19 countries with respect to preventable deaths before the age of 75, with a death rate more than 40% higher than the benchmark countries of France, Japan, and Spain. The United States ranked last in infant mortality out of 23 industrialized countries, with rates more than double the benchmark countries of Iceland, Japan, and Finland. The United States tied for last on healthy life expectancy at age 60."

"Despite these mediocre results in objective parameters of health outcomes, the United States spends far more than any other country for its healthcare. In 2000 the United States spent 13% of its gross domestic product on national health expenditures.[8] The next highest spending countries were Germany at 10.6% and France at 9.5%. In a graph of life expectancy versus health spending per capita, the United States falls far off the curve, both spending more and gaining less than other countries.[4] Another example of this contradiction is seen in the outcome of patients on hemodialysis. Although there are more hemodialysis centers per capita in the United States,[9] when end-stage renal disease patients were matched for severity of disease in Canada and the United States, patients in the United States were less likely to receive a kidney transplant and also had a higher mortality rate while on hemodialysis.[10]..."

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179856_tn?1333550962
Thank you for posting that article, I think it cleared up some common misbeliefs very simply.

it is clear why about 50% of personal bankruptcies in the United States are related to medical bills.[6] Tragically, 75% of individuals declaring medical bankruptcy had medical insurance at the onset of their illness.

The fact that this can happen to anyone of us scares the beejesus out of me.
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Avatar_m_tn
Yes, it is frightening. My group plan increased 17% this renewal period and I know some who've seen a 25% increase this year.
Mike
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Avatar_m_tn
Perhaps you're the only person who read this. That's really not surprising.  
Educate me

Jollyman worte: "But I have read were it is very hard to get approved for something like dialysis, again don't knoiw if it is true just what I have read. If that is true then someone with kidney failure would have a good chance of dying if they can not get on dialysis."

The article said: "Although there are more hemodialysis centers per capita in the United States,[9] when end-stage renal disease patients were matched for severity of disease in Canada and the United States, patients in the United States were less likely to receive a kidney transplant and also had a higher mortality rate while on hemodialysis."

The source for their statement is:
Hornberger JC, Garber AM, Jeffery JR. Mortality, hospital admissions, and medical costs of end-stage renal disease in the United States and Manitoba, Canada. Med Care. 1997;35:686-700.

Education should take facts into consideration and not hunches and vague recollections and ideological knee jerk reactions. It helps to do a little research - at least once in a while.
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585414_tn?1288944902
Its complex but what they are trying to get through in the United States is not socialized medicine in its pure form. There will always be some kind of graduated premium. But as for who wouldn't support it in your statement. I would agree the insurance industry would be against it. But all the doctors I've known and the psychiatrists where I gave testimony said they were for some form of national healthcare plan and they did take a positive stance on it affirmatively. As for the insurance industry its really hard for me to say anything good about them. "Pre-existing conditions" are basically disabilities but try to tell them that. Both private and public health insurance seem to be out to deny people. I know how to appeal coverage denials but many people don't and that's exactly what they are hoping for. The important thing is not only what the premium would be for your son but what the plan would and would not cover and what would get partial coverage and what would be entirely left out.
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427555_tn?1267556758
Having gone through cancer treatment in Canada, I haven't paid for any in hospital treatment.  National health care was introduced here by the grandfather of Keiffer Sutherland, Tommy Douglas.  I had surgery with a one week stay in hospital, radioactive iodine treatment with a two day stay in hospital, and it cost me only the gas money to get there, and of course we all pay through taxes.  I nwouldn't trade our system for another.  
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483733_tn?1326802046
I am a Canadian and love our healthcare.  With any kind of social healthcare you do get longer waiting periods because more people will use it and a small number will abuse it.  However, when you have something serious your doctor can make things happen for you.  I have had 11 surgeries and lots of chronic health issues and it hasn't cost me a dime.  No insurance company and no government agency determines what my best care is - my doctors do.
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506791_tn?1350343103
For those in favor 0of "single payer," there is a cost; paying your hard earned wages in higher taxes.  This is a price I am not willing to bear...especially as it makes me less able to care for my family and friends.

Before there was so much government help and rampant lawsuits driving up the costs, my family was able to keep my great grand parents in their own homes until the end of their lives.

My grandparents, with increased government "help," had to give up their homes and move into "independent living" apartments.

As both my dad and father-in-law were in good jobs, with traditional pensions (including health care, plus being veterans), we hope my parents and in-laws will be better off than my grandparents.

Me, I'm "lucky" that the VA takes care of my wife; service connected disability.  I'll have to continue working until no one will have me anymore.

4 things will cut costs: force the medical profession to get rid of bad doctors, stop drug ads that encourage people to pressure doctors into prescribing costly medicines that can kill you as often as they cure you, cut off the lawyers from their lawsuit drug and educate people's expectations of how long they should try and hang on to life, while burdening their children and grandchildren with the bills.

Yes, I work and have health insurance; paid in the past 30 odd years, only really needing it the past couple.

One other point...I have never been able to find anywhere in the US Constitution a clause, which grants the Federal government the authority to have any program benefiting any individual citizen, except for veterans.

One other thing I can't find a Constitutional basis for, Congressional pensions...
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535822_tn?1389452880
Thats a very interesting post thank you for your perspective.,
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428506_tn?1296560999
My concern, and I'm honestly not sure if or how justified it is, is over choice.

I personally see a doctor outside of my insurance.  I get longer appointments, can call in problems, and most importantly, I get a course of treatment unavailable through my insurance-covered physician.

If health care is socialized, will such options still exist?  My concern is that socialized care will mean that those of us with contested and/or controversial diseases will have an even more difficult time getting treatment.

I don't particularly like needing to operate off of the insurance grid, but I do value having the option.  

Would socialized health care mean that all doctors would strictly adhere to the same testing, treatment, appointment, and other guidelines?
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285927_tn?1380802356
Wonko, socialized medicine will not be a worry, they are looking into a one payor option where you keep your own doctor, he is in charge of your care.  It is also not the only thing as the existing will also stay in place.  Personally, I dont look for anything to happen because all these politicians have a vested interest in the healthcare in this country. It is not that they care one ioda about us, more about what it will cost them in the long run.  After all the politicians have the bestest healthcare available and we pay it, so they are not worried about it. Nor will those be concerned that have insurance and it has worked for them.  You have to be in the situation in order to understand what is not working in this country. I think everyone should be covered equally in this country and how much money you make should not be an issue, but it is.  We have been brainwashed into thinking we get what we pay for. The doctors even distribute care according to what the insurance says they can do and not what they think is in your best interest anyway.  Oh well, Im beatin a dead horse.
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506791_tn?1350343103
You are quite welcome.

This is a problem we can all solve together, but we must hold our elected representatives, doctors and lawyers fully accountable, as well as the pushers from the drug and medical device industries.

We also, as I implied, need to look in the mirror and set reasonable expectations.

I had a pacemaker implanted last year, which reminds my heart to beat.  With its assistance, my heart seems to be relearning how to do the job on its own; just above 10% pacing after the surgery and just at 6% now, 14months later.

The total cost of all the tests, exams, drugs, surgical time and so forth was over $70,000.  This was "negotiated" down to about $25,000.  Where's the real cost???
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483733_tn?1326802046
I can understand your concern.  I think a lot of your issues will depend on the model that will be implemented and at this point it doesn't look like it will affect what you are saying.  In countries where socialized medicine exists it varies in how it is handled - in the UK they seem to be more rigid with how doctors can act but here in Canada our doctors have a lot more freedom.
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535822_tn?1389452880
Actually $25.000 for what you had done to me doesnt sound too bad as you say with the cost of drugs etc,I come from England and a lot of my family live there they dont have wonderful experiences of Government run medicine , if we get a better system than they have I will be glad but I know it is worrysome when any tests like Mammograms have to be got privatly ,and its expensive,unless a woman is over 50 , my daughter is at risk from her fathers side,not mine 3 family members have had breast cancer, one found out 2 weeks ago, then if the cancer is secondary it is hard to get the very expensive drugs to treat it, unless you pay ,again privatly.In spite of all the positive posts here from Canada there are also many unhappy folk therewith the same kind of system.It sounds today on the news as if the drug companies are coming forward to do their bit so that could be a postive move. You sound as if you are doing okay and have a new lease of life, good luck to you.
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506791_tn?1350343103
Thank you for your well-wishes!

Yes, it is a new lease on life; most importantly it means I'll be around to help my wife.

The biggest single item on the bill; the device itself at $32,000.00 - how something the size of 2 Ritz crackers stacked together can cost that much is beyond my pretty wide comprehension.

Ah well, hopefully some complications I had this past spring were the final chapter, until the device needs to be replace, in another 7 1/2 years or so.

I hope you and yours have good luck in maintaining your health, and in getting the help needed, when needed.
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Avatar_f_tn

http://www.healthcarebelgium.com/ --- the healthcare system in Belgium

http://www.medknowledge.de/germany/ --- healthcare in Germany

http://healthcare-economist.com/2008/04/14/health-care-around-the-world-france/ --- healthcare in France
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Avatar_f_tn
The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.


http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
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285927_tn?1380802356
Hey, Im right there with ya, I just am so sick of sounding like a broken record. Once it falls on deaf ears, why bother? Like I said "Beating a Dead Horse".  I am amazed people can be so blind, but hey! I guess that is what makes the world go round and the politicians richer. Wow!  Wonder how many of them want our standard of health care? Oh, I forgot! Theirs is paid for by us and is the best in the world! Hmmmm!
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Avatar_f_tn

It doesn't make sense that we are currently paying more for less healthcare, does it ? And not to mention... we have less options now.
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535822_tn?1389452880
Great information here it is like a broken record you are right...
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285927_tn?1380802356
Well, I no that and you know that! Thats what I mean when I say I really do not understand how people can not see that! Oh well, what will be, will be. Truth comes home to roost sooner or later. Probably not in my lifetime tho. We shall see.
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Avatar_f_tn
For the people who think that the European Healthcare is so much better I suggest you go over there and check it out for yourself.  The Europeans pay a LOT more in taxes than we do and therefore have a different healthcare system.  When we visited Germany in 2006 we paid 17% Sales Tax at the checkout counters.  Its now 19% Sales Tax.  The income tax is anywhere from 15-59% it depends on how much money you make.  You also pay a “Church Tax” whether you go to church or not which is 9% and there are more taxes.  The Liberal Politicians don’t tell you that.  Go visit any hospital room and you will see 3-6 patients or more in one room, lots of them with no curtains to divide the beds.  You hear the conversations between doctors and these patients, no privacy at all.  Examinations with no privacy at all.  A single or double room you get only if you pay the additional CASH or if you are on death door and very critical.

Now to the U.S. when Obama, Pelosi and other Liberal politicians say “tax the rich, spread the wealth, let the rich pay” why should the “rich” pay??  Unless they won the lottery, woke up one morning and found out they inherited a LARGE sum of money from some rich aunt or are drug dealers most of them studied hard/work/worked hard/worked themselves up, lots of them worked 2-3 jobs while going to college if the parents could not afford to pay for college.  Why should they pay for us??  I could never be jeleaus of rich people just because I chose a different path.  BTW, I’m far from rich.  Also remember the “rich” are the ones who employ people.  If it wasn’t for the “rich” lots of us would not have jobs.

I’ve worked in a Teaching Hospital for many years and trust me NOBODY is turned away.  People with no insurance (many college students) are seen by a third year resident and ALWAYS FOLLOWED UP BY A PHYSICIAN/SPECIALIST “before” they leave the hospital/clinic.  Same goes for the Dental Schools. Of course they’ve to wait a little bit to see that "real" doctor/dentist but that is a small price to pay for “free” healthcare and free meds as in “samples”, of course there are always people who even complain about that, no health insurance but wont “in and out” service with as little waiting time as possible.

If you've a job you will get billed accordingly.

Our daughter works in a large hospital  for the “Indigent” on the West Coast.  They are only asked to pay $1.00 per visit which includes the checkup, all tests, surgery if necessary etc etc.  Most of them show up WITHOUT paying the $1.00 fee but are seen smoking Marlboro cigarettes outside of the hospital. Most of them do not even have the decency to cancel an appointment but just wont show up.  Almost all of them have cell phones. If they would get refused because they don’t pay the $1.00 fee they will just show up at the ER and that would cost the hospital even more.

Of course nobody talks about the many people who COULD afford health insurance but wont get it.  I’ve neighbors and worked with people who say “I’m healthy what do I need health insurance for” or “I will get it when I am sick” or coming from the younger crowd “health insurance is for old people” they rather have big screen TV’s.  Of course when they DO get sick guess where they are going along with the Illegal immigrants?? To the ER. When it comes to “preventive checkups” some of them roll their eyes.

Obama’s own physician IS AGAINST NATURALIZED HEALTHCARE.  When Obama was at the AMA recently giving a speech he was booed, keep in mind the  AMA is very much on the Left yet he was still booed.

In Chicago, a child on “Medicaid”, who was bitten by a Pitbull and his lip was badly damaged was given a tetanus shot and Tylenol and sent home.  His mother had to drive for hours to find a hospital/doctor who would sow up this boy’s lip, and this in the USA.

The grass is always greener on the other side.  If you are willing to pay huge taxes as in Europe, pay 19% Sales Tax every time you go to the grocery store, share a hospital room with several others and NO privacy, then you will have no problem.  Trust me, IMO they are NOT telling you everything when they are pushing for naturalized healthcare.

If the naturalized healthcare is so great in other countries then why do lots of them  come to the U.S. to be treated when they have a serious problem??  And no, they are not always rich, it will be written off as charity if they can't pay.







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I have heard some upsetting stories from people in Canada and the U.K. who had national (not "naturalized") health care and could not get life sustaining treatment covered due to massive waiting lists and I would agree their system has flaws. Having mandatied free health insurance would bankrupt the country and is not workable. However, some form of health care insurance with a graduated premium should be available for everyone. There's been much talk of that new flu strain and as soon as they have a vaccine available everyone should be able to afford it and if they couldn't what if (as scientists say is a potential though thankfully not likely) that flu strain turned into something lethal? Now apply that to every infectious disease of every kind. When one American goes without health care coverage we all can suffer. The question is who should pay what premium and what rate? I would agree the American people should have a say in that not just the legislators.
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535822_tn?1389452880
Thank you for that informative post, we needed it explained without the bias,just the facts.You tell it as it is I have seen each of the points you raise.
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Avatar_f_tn
Well, my son, as he says "Got the insurance so you won't worry Mom!".....  so he has it.  I told him I would split the cost with him while he is in school.  

I have been so worried that he would not go to the doctor if he was sick, not go to the dentist, or avoid taking medicine if he were prescribed because he didn't have insurance.  Even though the insurance isn't great - it's at least SOMETHING in case of GOD FORBID an extreme medical need.

SO!  He doesn't have the "socialized" healthcare program that he agrees with - but he has a healthcare program.  

Halelujia!!!
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535822_tn?1389452880
Great news its all worked out ...whew....
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611067_tn?1279065256
I'm so happy that your son has insurance now - I can hear the relief in your post!  WOOHOO!!!

Barbarella:
Well put!  I was at court the other night for small claims matter (I am a collections person) and one of the men I was setting up a payment plan with told me that he had over $900 a month coming in just two months ago and now that Congress has changed some laws, he now has to pay so much for his Medicare that he now only brings home $600 per month.  He was barely surviving on $900.  It's so sad to me.  I think Medicare and free healthcare should be there for our vets and elderly who have paid their taxes and have paid into Medicare most of their lives.
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285927_tn?1380802356
I was lying in bed this morning and just thinking about the state of our healthcare in this country.
About how many people that abuse programs like SSI, Workers Comp, Medicaid. And all the programs put in place to help people in this country, not to mention the additonal state programs. Here in fl, we have a plan that regardless of income, all children have a right to healthcare. The money for these plans come from our taxes.

40% of all children born in the US last year was to unwed mothers.
And 70% of us agree our health care needs some kind of reform.

I was thinking about all those people having kids without benefit of marriage. Lots of them are on the medicaid system, wic, etc.

If we can come up with some kind of plan that is affordable for everyone, would it not pull some people off those programs, thereby saving money.

People who are self employed, would be able to afford healthcare, thus claiming more taxes.
People would not be claiming so many back injuries and getting on ssi, for medical help, thereby freeing up more money.

If we do not do something, all these programs are going to implode just from the inability to carry all the people that will soon be on them due to among other things the state of the econemy.

The money saved from all these other programs could help fund a program in and of itself. The scaremongering is why things have gone this far without restructuring. There are enough horror stories to go around, and that includes right here in America. We must remember also that the politicians have a vested interest in keeping things the way they are. They are in the pockets of the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies among others. Why? because this is just one more issue that does not effect their personal life as we take care of them very well. I wonder if they would feel the same way, walking in the shoes of the average american. Just thinking out loud.
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285927_tn?1380802356
85.00 wkly for single coverage of a college student! Wow! So he is good until he changes jobs? Or the employer decides to drop it.  Or until he has an issue and needs to use it and his issue risks his employment. Then if he manages to keep his job thru it all, will it pay 50-70-80 or 100%.  Assuming it pays 80% and he is held responsible for the othe 20. Now he will have to work another job just to pay for the other 20% because 7.50 per hr isnt going to do it. So, he will drop the healthinsurance in order to pay for other things that are necessary, like food. The vicious circle of healthcare in america. And they are banking that he is in great health and will never use it so if this is the case, they get 85.00 a week from just this one healthy young person until he moves on to other job with different insurance or drops it.  No wonder the healthcare industry is so powerful.
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Avatar_f_tn
as a college student, i was eligible for a plan through my school which was $600/year.  i had to pay it up front when i paid my tuition but it was worth it.  i was pregnant my last year of school, and the ins. covered nearly everything.  if i had put that $600/year in an account to pay it would not have covered my costs.  hospitals do offer discounted rates if you are uninsured, you should ask.  most states have charity hospitals and clinics to provide care for the uninsured.  i would not recommend your son pay over nearly his entire check per month for health insurance, but look into some of these other methods to get health care needs met.  
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FYI, Swampy's journal where he does the math on what socialized medicine would cost:

http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/47987
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285927_tn?1380802356
If we get the waste out of what we already have, it will pretty much pay for a new health plan.
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Avatar_f_tn
He actually was able to get his health insurance for $23 per week.   The $85 was for the entire cafeteria plan (disability, life, etc).  So, that's a bit more affordable.  

The bad thing is that there is so much insanity of the prices of treatments that you feel a desparation for some kind of insurance to be able to be treated and not go bankrupt.  I can't image if he was hurt or sick that he wouldn't get treated.  There's no amount of money I wouldn't give my son if he was sick or hurt, but the amounts of money that it would actually take to pay the bills direct - it's impossible.

When he changes jobs, hopefully, he will be given an opportunity to have a policy.  He hopes that we will changes in the way of a new system.  Like you he (and I ) belive that the waste is the main problem.  

Rach  
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793305_tn?1303671818
If this was posted above and I missed it, I apologize.  I was reading about a hospital in Cleveland?  I like their approach.  Drs and surgeons are paid a wage...just like you and me...though I daresay theirs is in a bit higher tax bracket than mine and rightly so.  But instead of a surgeon thinking...I get this much for this many procedures and we can throw in this test and that test...he gets the same wage no matter how many procedures he does.  

Instead of a dr saying....if I take this many office calls....we'll make this much money...well you get the drift.  So they can take their time with each patient...giving each person the care they deserve....They don't push for as many "questionable tests or unneeded tests and x-rays" because they get paid the same no matter what they do.....

Is something like that workable?
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I always thought you could keep your children on your policy as long as they were in school?  Or have they cut that out too? I no when my kids were younger, we had that option but I do not remember if they had to live at home or not?
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Maybe it depends on the person's policy?  My son just completed his 1st year of college.  Our policy covers a "child" under the age of 23 as long as they are a full-time college student (they do NOT have to take summer classes).  

Unfortunately, a month ago our ins. co. ate a 2nd bowl of stupid and made us PROVE our 3 children were our children AND that we are married!  We asked if we could send a copy of our income tax return first page....  If Uncle Sam ain't complaining, who is this insurance company that has been covering us for 4 years now to say "married, filing jointly" ain't good enough...?  NOPE.  They wanted birth certificates and our marriage license!  WOW!  They didn't require this when my husband GOT the job 4 years ago....

It's just an indication of where the economy is - insurance co.'s are trying to give the boot to anyone and everyone they can.  Can't blame them, but they should have asked for this info up front.  I can also see our son proving he IS a full-time student.  Plenty of kids go off to college, only to wash out, but the 2 younger children...?  And a marriage license?  Wow.
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Seriously! Jeesh!

Unbelieveable!  Seems everything we do now days is pay more for less. Shrinking of the cereal boxes for same money, less health care for more money! The rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer. I have heard that saying all my life and have just in recent years come to see its meaning!
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427555_tn?1267556758
I have no problem with what doctors get paid.  I do have a problem with what professional athletes get paid.
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535822_tn?1389452880
Isnt that paid by the clubs though ...
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765070_tn?1384873394
Here is the thing;  What Obama is proposing about the healthcare overhaul is great and all but not even realistic.  

Here is what will happen based on what our Medicare and Medicaid system is like.  My hubby works for a Government Medicaid and Medicare company and works on their security and the monetary issues on a daily basis.  

When companies see how much less the cost is to have the Government plan, they will drop their private insurance plans in order to get the cheaper option.  This is what he wants to do.  He is telling you all just what you want to hear but you will see that private insurance and choosing your own provider will eventually be eliminated all together and you will only have one choice; the governements insurance plan.  That way they can have control over what procedures are being done, if you can get a specific procedure, and whether or not they feel that you really need the specific procedure.  So, it sounds great right now but you need to really read between the lines and ask lots of questions regarding this specific overhaul.  We all want the healthcare that we deserve but I certainly do not want someone telling me whether I am allowed to live or die.  Certain procedures will be done no matter what you want or have to say since they will be in charge of the costs involved.  Also, taxes will be alot higher and this Country will be in worse shape than it is right now.  I do feel that the way the healthcare system is run right now is ridiculous.  But, alot of our problems with the system comes down to lawyers and malpractice costs.  Also, because the pharmaceutical companies basically determine how much prescriptions cost and seem to find new meds for all these new conditions which costs more money and more malpractice lawsuits.  

We all need to question and research what this plan will do to this country.  We already are in so much debt and it will only get worse.  We need to figure out a way to fix these problems but it cannot be done overnight.  Their are so many unanswered questions and unfortunately these questions are not even being answered;  they are just pushed to the side so that it is not dealt with.  This is the reason that this system overhaul did not work in the past.  
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You wrote: "If we get the waste out of what we already have, it will pretty much pay for a new health plan."

If we could the waste out of what we already have, we wouldn't NEED a new health plan.....................................................
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ikn, I keep hearing all the negatives. Im still waiting for solutions to be offered. So far I have heard none.  Obviously no one has any, just a lot of complaints. As I said before, to us that cannot get health insurance for whatever reason? Something is better than nothing, cause to us, we already have a death sentence! I have worked many years in the medical field, from handling the workmens comp for a group of orthopedics, working in the nursing homes, billing, coding, etc.  We have gotten to where healthcare is a business, very expensive, very inadequate and you already have insurance companies telling you what you can and can not do and when you can do it. So I personally do not see what we got to lose except high cost.
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I checked into the keeping him on my insurance but unfortunately, my policy at work doesn't allow it.  HIS FATHER on the other hand, could have, but wouldn't do it.  (HE ate a second bowl of stupid - that's going to be my new saying, twehner5!)  

Teko, I handle the workman's comp at work for the employees and one of my employees got hurt on the job a year ago - do you know that we have had to MAKE a position for him  (ok, we didn't have to but it was the right thing to do) because even though he can't use his arm that was crushed in a fall - they released him with restrictions....can't climb or lift over 100 pounds.    OK, he installs track onto stages and has to be in lifts, climbs ladders and lifts steel....so HOW can you be released to do your job when you restrict what the entire job does.  THEN, they offered him a settlement of $6,000 and medical care for that specific injury.  We pay all of this money into the fund thinking that our employees are going to be taken care of and they aren't.  Just slapping a band aid on it and send them on their way.   Ok, that was a rant, but I agree - it's VERY much a business, and not monitored and healthcare is just out of control, IMO.

Gee Wiz!
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285927_tn?1380802356
I used to handle workers comp claims in Ohio. Actually, the reason a job was created for him was twofold. It benefits the employer rather than take the person off work and draw a check from the state. They want to get a person to settle with them because if there is no settlement and the claim has been allowed, then the workers comp has to pay for life long medical care for that injury as well as any resulting from having that injury including resulting depression from a person being taken out of the workplace. If the worker was smart, he would not have settled. He sort of bit off his nose to spite his face. Now if he ever loses his job and insurance and the old injury flares, he is just out a luck. They are off the hook. By the worker staying on the job, it does not raise the rates of the employer also. At least that is the way it works in Ohio. And I agree, with you when you say it is simply a business. Your friend just got bested and dont know it. Works the same way pretty much with all insurance, beit car, etc. lol
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585414_tn?1288944902
Well there was a Supreme Court decision about that specific issue, that is when a person with a disability cannot perform the essential function of one job but is able to work should the company be required to assign them another job in the same workplace. The Supreme Court sided against that one as well as other restrictions on the Americans with Disabilities Act. Interestingly enough there was a law signed into effect that reversed some of the denials the Supreme Court had made as regarding the Americans with Disabilities Act and it was signed into effect by George Bush when he was president (partially because it was put into law with other legislation as regarding the economy and partially because his father the first George Bush had signed the ADA to begin with). That would not necessarily support what happened at your workplace nor would I myself agree with it. It just shows that legislation as regarding the rights of people with disabilities is not really a divisive issue confined to one political mindset.
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Me Thinks  this deserves a good old fashioned ....bump  
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Oh, why not?
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585414_tn?1288944902
Oh well. Think that one thread went down but I did bookmark the links and will be reading over the healthcare bill in its entirety but it will take a while but as I posted like any bill would not be surprised if it has extraneous parts added to benefit particular politicians but in skimming through it (its 500 pages, not a quick read) I did notice some strong specific language that will redetermine and stop people who commit fraud (which is one thing I think people would support I know they had their concerns) but honestly I can't comment on it until the final version is ready for approval as it will like all bills have some give or take between the various political factions. No need to revisit the whole thing (in my mind) until that's done but I will be following up and then make up my mind at that point.
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I was sad to see our debates gone on this thread.  I don't know what else to say!  
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TO: ILADVOCATE and HelpinUtah

YEPPERS!  What YOU said!  You guys are GREAT!
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599170_tn?1300977493
kinda wish there was some reforms comming soon, will let you all know how much my neck surgery will cost my insurace co, thus raising our rates for next year Im guessing 100k, then the hospital accepts a lower price like 60k, however if one had no insurance there is  no bartering very unfair.
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535822_tn?1389452880
Healthcare OBama style going down the chute , up in Flames what ever name you care to call it, read everyones lips , did you listen to the news , even the Mayo Clinic has come out and said too much too fast too much....Thing is we will get a better health care than it was, just not his way, open your Eyes America and smell the coffee.
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