General Motors

Just wondering how everyones feels about the govenement owning 70% of this once great car company?..They now can tell them what kind of cars and trucks to build or not to build. Personally I don't think they have any business, getting in to companies in the private sector..Back in the 70's the goverenment bailed out Chryslar without being a owner of the company. So let me know what you all think

[margypops]

I t gives the government 60% controlling stake , It is one of the largest peacetime Naturalisations.,with the road ahead  uncertain, heavy potential conflicts and many risks to tax payers.The only thing it makes clear is that the government is firmly in the business of running companies using Taxpayer Dollars(.I am quoting from the news and bloomberg) ..pretty scary all round in my humble opinion... each day there is another happening to put thye nail in the proverbial coffin, wait till VAT begins Value Added Tax at 25% you havent lived with that.... we'll be lucky if we can afford a motor scooter....

[Melissa0116]

Yeah, I do not like the idea of the Government running GM.  But what choice do I or anyone else have.  Also, even though they are going into Bancruptcy; the Government is still going to give $32 billion to GM to restructure the automaker.  Yeah, we will not ever really know where this money goes just like the other $20 billion we gave to them to help GM not go into bancruptcy.  I am sure that it mostly goes to the unions not directly to building cars or to help the company get on it feet.  Just my opinion.  

[margypops]

I think you are right about the Unions,I see Hummer is going aswell.

[PlateletGal]

The government saved this great car company that, unfortunately, didn't pay attention to what many of their customers wanted. Of course that is why this great company was going downhill in the first place. If they would have produced hybrid vehicles only a couple of years ago, then they would be doing okay right now and wouldn't have needed the government to save them.

I see it this way: the government is investing in the future of this country by saving GM.

[jollyman069]

Well now I was in the car business for almost 10 years before I got sick. GM had a hybird 2 years before Toyota or Honda, and the gov't paid them not to produce it..that was during the Clinton years...and then when Toyota came out with the Pruis and Honda the Insight, Gm ws too late on the technology. So maybe people should study things a little better to know what they are talking about. This President wants the gov't to own private companies and noone is going to tell me any different, it is called SOCIALISM... and when the gov't owns private companies that is what you have..period

[PlateletGal]

"So maybe people should study things a little better to know what they are talking about."

I think I follow the news better than most Americans. Since you think I need to study more.... can you give me a credible link to back up your statement that GM had invented a hybrid vehicle 2 years before Toyota or Honda ? And how the government paid them not to produce it ?

[jollyman069]

I have no link i worked in a General Motors dealership, we knew about it in 1996, we went and drove the concept car in Baltimore, I am going for life experience no links or news reports so get over it

[PlateletGal]

"so get over it"

I won't discuss politics anymore, unless you get over it and be respectful of other views. First, you tell me to study and then you tell me that this was something that I wouldn't know about, but you did.

[HelpinUtah]

I agree that the government should stay out of the private sector.  GM should have been allowed to fail.  But, the government had to get involved and spend all that money and for what?  They are still filing bankruptcy.  We knew back when they decided to bail out the automakers that the money was only putting off the inevitable, but everyone who said that had their head bit off because we didn't know what we were talking about - well, now it's obvious that we did!  

I believe that GM, Ford, Chrysler did develop vehicles the people wanted!  People wanted SVUS, Trucks and larger cars!  That's what they wanted and it wasn't until gas prices hit sky high that that changed!  But, GM, Ford, and Chrysler have all made vehicles that could give excellent gas mileage and they were showed off at various car shows as "concept cars."  But, they actually worked.  I had heard about them back then, but people still did not care about that - they wanted other vehicles.  And, to be honest, how many of us could have afforded them back then.  Even today, if the government has it's way we will all have to have one of these lower mileage cars by 2012 or 2016 (I can't remember which now) and so those of us who cannot afford a new car will be screwed!

Our government is a joke!  I remember Michele Obama stating she had never been more proud of her country as when her husband received the nomination for the democratic party.  Well, I personally, have never been more dissatisfied with our government than I am now.  I fear for this country now!  I fear for my freedoms.  If you folks don't see this coming - then you are in for a rude awakening.

The government is spending money like crazy and it will cause inflation big time.  I feel bad for our children and their children - it will take us eons to pay off this record high debt.  They say that we have incurred more debt in the past 6 months than we have in the last 30 years!  Unbelievable.  

Forgive me, but I've lost all trust in our government.  As far as I'm concerned it's time for Republicans and Democrats to change their policy or we should vote all of them out and bring in people who really care about the country and not lining their own pockets or striving for power!

So sorry for rambling - but I am so disappointed right now!  

[jollyman069]

Thank You Janet...Amen sister....you hit the nail right on the head, there are only a few of us Americans in here that aren't afaird to tell the truth, but hey you don't need many

[PlateletGal]

"People wanted SVUS, Trucks and larger cars! "

Not everyone and this is why GM failed.

[HelpinUtah]

I would say "MOST" people wanted the SVUS, Trucks and larger cars.  When I'm driving back and forth to work, I see more of the larger vehicles on the road than the smaller ones.  This was the same when I lived in Pennsylvania as well.  

[PlateletGal]

What I admire most about the Democrat Party is that they plan ahead. They knew that we would be needing more fuel efficient vehicles in the future and that the price of gasoline could easily rise and we had no control over that. Obviously... they were right on this issue.

[jollyman069]

Back in the later part of the 90's and up untill 2005 60 to 70 % of all vehicles GM built were either SUV'S, TRUCKS or large passenger cars and people can check this out in consumer reports or automotivenews.com..they were gas guzzlers alot of the vehicles were 40,000 plus dollars...so yea thats what was the biggest thing that KILLED GM as we knew it. One of the biggest reasons things like this happened is they didn't have car guys running the company. In late 1998 to 2003 Ron Zarrella was CEO of GM he came from Bosh and LOmb which I ythink was a plastics company, then Rick Wagoner was aCPA when he started with GM had no ral car experience, thats why in 2003 he hired Bob Lutz, who was the cheif designer and engineer for Chryslar, but it was too late the company ws in too much trouble. When I started working for the GM dealership the stock of GM was over $90 a share yesterday it was 73 cents now that is truley sad

[HelpinUtah]

Everytime one of these car companies came out with the smaller more fuel efficient cars, they lost money on them because Americans did not buy them.  That's the bottom line here.  I have to respectfully disagree with you about the Democratic party!  I believe that they are just as guilty as the Republicans!

[PlateletGal]

"they lost money on them because Americans did not buy them."

True... but that wasn't the Democrats fault. I think they lost money on these vehicles because Toyota and Honda beat them to the punch and had more to offer for less.

[margypops]

well you'll soon be skooting along the road in a fiat ....lol You are right Jollyman... the car Industry isnt the only industry this goverment has taken over anyway.This is just one nail in the coffin a small piece of the puzzle , I think a lot of the pieces are beggining to fall into place..those who are not obsessed with him will see eventually what is happening, the ones that cannot see it never will..Today and I know its off subject.... but O Bama has said he thinks Iran has legitimate reasons for wanting Nuclear capability...remember Iran has openly said that it  wants to wipe Isreal off the face of the world...sorry to change from GM

[HelpinUtah]

I'm sure there was poor management involved as well, but then let them fail - our government has no business getting involved in bailing out the private sector!  

[jollyman069]

this problem is not the fault of republicans or democrats it is they didn't have the right people running the companies...Toyota for example which we also sold, have car people running thier company and the CEO of Toyota of America is changed every 4 to 5 years so they get new ideas new blood,,they are a much better run company then the American car companies

[HelpinUtah]

you're right jollyman.  When I say the democrats and republicans are both to blame - I'm talking in general about all the problems we are facing today.  

[jollyman069]

now thats real correct helpin, they got this country on tilt so bad that we may never get it tilted upright again

[swampcritter]

Swampy thinks that the government solved the wrong problem.

The problem they were working on was how to get an auto company in and out of bankruptcy quickly.

The real issue is how to reorganize the company so it survives. Swampy believes that the probability of survival is less than 50/50. Then what will happen? Will GM beg the government for still more money in six months? Twelve months?

[HelpinUtah]

I completely agree with you swampy!  

[teko]

Might I just add a tiny bit of insight here. From my perspective anyway. These car companies provided a good job with benefits for lots of people in many sectors. Used to be when you applied for a job, you took the one that offered the most in the way of, stock, benefits, 401, etc. This was a pact between worker and co. Now a lot of those people are either retired or getting close to retiring and these companies have mishandled their finances due to greed.  NOW! These retired people getting retirement benefits, medical, pensions or whatever you want to call it, will now cease to get them, the unions will be busted, GM and Chrysler will survive, a little leaner and a whole lot better off without all those debts and promises they do no longer have to honor.
The real losers in all this is the working people that put in years and years of faithful service to these companies.

Now, I dont want the government in my business anymore than anyone else, but it would appear that we are pointing the finger in the wrong faces. The government will honor the warranties on these vehicles that people have purchased. When they get their monies back, they will back out of the car industry. Already several of the banks, are repaying their loans from the bailout.  I think/pray,  it will be ok.  My concern is the fallout for all those poor workers that dedicated their lives to these companies and end up with less than nothing.  They lost their 401, then their livlihood.  Folks who retired with a pension, now penniless.  I will continue to buy Toyota. So much for American  made.  When they do resurface, and they will,  and we work for them? No Union, cheaper wages, no benefits.  Thats my bet. GM and their greed cost us, they file bankruptcy and get out of it all. Hmmm!

[swampcritter]

The pension issue isn't quite as stark as you make it out to be.

Here is the "normal" bankruptcy situation that the airline employees went through. All companies that offer a fixed pension pay a tax to the government. That tax funds an agency called the PBGC. If a company goes under, it gives its retiress to the PBGC. They'll continue to pay the pension except there is a yearly limit -- something like $50k. For most blue collar workers, their pension was less than the limit. However, for the airline pilots who made into the 6 figure range, their pensions are indeed lowered.

For health care -- if a company goes under its retiree health care terminates, but everyone becomes Medicare eligible. That means that their basic health care will be provided. The problem is that sometimes workplace injuries lead to the kinds of health care that a union plan may better provide. An example might be a welder who injured their neck "snapping" on their visor.

[jollyman069]

I want to know if and I hope it doesn't happen, but if GM doesn't make it where is President Obama going to fix the GM cars, do they have that big of a garage at the White House????

[Melissa0116]

This does not have anything to do with the car co. It has to do with the unions.  The Government is supported by the Unions and vice versa.  This has all to do with Greed of the Unions and power of the Government no matter who would have been President.  

[Melissa0116]

Oh, one more thing.  The unions are in charge of so many companies and they run the show.  They run the Teachers lives, Businesses, Banks, car companies and many many other organizations.  

[jollyman069]

I love it when you get fired up girl, you go go go,,,,,,,,,brian

[Melissa0116]

You know Jollyman069.  My dad was head of a Union here in PA.  And I am telling you I told him that Unions basically suck.  He would complain because he was working so hard at his age of 55 while the youngins would not even lift a finger.  I told him that it is the unions that protect them and he would fight about it with me all the time.  But, unfortunately this is true.  You know, I was reading the other day that they pay GM worker or any union based car dealer for 2 years after they have not been part of the company.  What the hell is up with that.  If I take one day off, I get no pay.  And that is my decision since I have my own business.  But, if my husband takes a vacation day he takes that out of his scheduled vacation days and when they run out then he does not get paid.  So, why is it right for someone to get paid for doing nothing for 2 freaking years?  This is full pay not a pay cut and they get their health benefits.  I know that you know this and understand since youv'e seen it.  It happens in all aspects of union based companies and businesses.   And it is not a secret that this happens.  If you google this info; you will find it everywhere in articles and reports from all sides.  

[Melissa0116]

oh, for the ones that need statistics and sites that show the truth about unions then here is a Wall Street Journal Article written In December  that speaks about what unions do:

As GM CEO Rick Wagoner recently wrote on these pages, the Detroit companies have finally begun to adapt to this real economic world. Last year Detroit struck a deal with the unions to unload retiree health obligations by 2010 to a trust fund set up by the UAW. The trio's productivity has improved as well. In 1995, a GM car took 46 hours to make, Chrysler 43 and Toyota 29.4. By 2006, according to Harbour Consulting, GM had moved it to 32.4 hours per vehicle and Chrysler 32.9. Toyota stayed at 29.9.

Yet these moves born of desperation have come so late that the companies are still in jeopardy. Both management and unions chose to sign contracts that let them live better and work less efficiently in the short-term while condemning the companies to their current pass over time. It is deeply unfair for government now to ask taxpayers who have never earned such wages or benefits to shield the UAW and Detroit from the consequences of those contracts.

There's no natural law that America must have a Detroit automotive industry, any more than steel had to be made for all time in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania or textiles in New England. Britain sold off all its car plants to foreigners and was no less an advanced economy as a result, though it was a healthier one. Detroit may yet adjust to avoid destruction in the best spirit of American capitalism. The other American car industry is a model for how to do it.

[margypops]

Hey well said Melissa ....

[Melissa0116]

Thanks Margypops!

[teko]

Are GM pensions in peril?By JIM LEUTE ( Contact )   Wednesday, May 20, 2009EMAIL SHARE PRINTADVERTISEMENT  
GM Retiree's Association Mission



The General Motors Retirees Association is dedicated to three major purposes:

-- To urge the preservation and, if possible, the enhancement of pension, health care and other benefits earned by GM retirees through their years of labor and loyalty to GM.

-- To help strengthen General Motors to the best of its ability and, to the extent consistent with retirees' interests, use its network of retirees and public relations assets to support General Motors' business.

-- Work through the National Retiree Legislative Network to gain federal legislation that ensures fairness and justice are accorded to retirees.

For more information, visit www.gmret.org.

JANESVILLE — If General Motors files for bankruptcy, thousands of local retirees could see cuts in their monthly pensions and their health care benefits.

As a June 1 deadline for the automaker's government-ordered reorganization looms, GM retirees—particularly those younger than 65—fear that their pensions would be slashed if the automaker files for bankruptcy.

While there are plenty of 'ifs', all indications point to a GM bankruptcy that could lead to the end of the automaker's plan that pays the monthly pensions of about 650,000 retirees.

Such a move certainly would impact the more than 4,000 GM retirees represented by United Auto Workers Local 95 in Janesville. It would also affect the salaried retirees of the local plant, a number that's undetermined but estimated to approach 1,000.

A bankruptcy filing doesn't necessarily mean the termination of the pension programs, but struggling steel companies and airlines have used bankruptcy to get out from under large pension obligations.

The pension plan of Northwest Airlines, however, remained intact as the company launched a 19-month reorganization in 2005.

Regardless of whose numbers are used, the GM pension trust fund is under funded.

GM has said its hourly and salaried pension funds ended 2008 with about $84 billion in assets, 13 percent less than the $96 billion needed to fully fund its pension obligations. Other sources have said the fund is up to $20 billion lighter than it should be.

James Seward, an associate professor of finance, investment and banking at UW-Madison, said if GM files for bankruptcy, it likely would terminate the pension plan and offload its obligations to the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp.

The PBGC insures private-sector pension plans and pays benefits to workers when plans fail. It likely would pick up a portion—but not all—of the unfunded obligations.

Depends on age

The shortfall likely would hit retirees in the form of smaller benefits. Some analysts have said retirees on average could see a 10 to 20 percent reduction in monthly pensions.

But that reduction likely will be much larger for workers age 55 to 62, said Karen DeOrnellas of the newly formed General Motors Retirees Association.

The national advocacy organization formed in March to preserve pension, health care and other benefits of GM retirees.

"If GM terminates the pension plan, the younger workers will see a pretty significant cut—30 to 50 percent," DeOrnellas said, noting that GM already has taken billions from the pension plan for use in other areas.

"The older retirees should see little if any reduction."

Monthly pensions for employees 65 and older typically average more than $3,000, she said.

The younger retirees would be hit hardest because they'd qualify for a much lower maximum pension if the GM plan were assumed by the government: $18,900 a year at age 50 ranging to $54,000 for employees 65 and older.

'A promise made'

Seward said the addition of the Chrysler and GM pension plans could significantly drain the PBGC, which since October has assumed pension payments for another 70 struggling companies.

The PBGC insures the pensions of 44 million Americans. Its representatives have met with President Obama's auto task force on the impact of a GM or Chrysler pension plan termination and have been making preparations for the possibility.

PBGC acting director Vince Snowbarger recently told a Detroit newspaper that the termination would have a major impact on retirees.

"The fact is that people are going to see some reductions that obviously they hadn't planned for," he said. "They have had a promise made to them that is not being kept, and all we can do is try to step in and help out a little bit."

Health care

DeOrnellas said her group also is concerned about the continuation of health care benefits if GM enters bankruptcy.

Both hourly and salaried employees have gotten health care cuts and increased out-of-pocket expenses in recent years. The trend, she said, is expected to continue. The extreme case would be all health care coverage getting wiped out.

"GM has already canceled medical, dental, vision, hearing aid, prescription drug, extended care and catastrophic coverage for salaried employees older than 65," she said. "GM agreed to pay an extra $300 a month to make up for it, but that doesn't begin to cover those benefits."

And next January, GM will end health care coverage to retired salaried workers who are younger than 65 and eligible for Medicare because they are disabled. They will get a $260 monthly medical expense credit.

Vision and dental care are reportedly on the cutting block for hourly retirees.

"As we look forward, health care coverage is a major concern," she said.

Seward said it's difficult to speculate on the outcome for health care coverage if GM enters bankruptcy. If one plan is terminated, others might be available under federal COBRA laws, he said.

DeOrnellas and Seward said the new administration in Washington seems interested in some form of national health care program.

"The auto industry is very supercharged right now," Seward said. "But there's a new administration that's gotten involved, one that I think will work in the best interests for health care and pensions.

"But there will still be political fireworks."

DeOrnellas said her group has been working around the clock on the pension and health care issues. While the GMRA primarily focuses on salaried retirees, it's been adding members from the hourly ranks every day.

"The future of pensions and health care are certainly the No. 1 topic of retiree groups around the country," said DeOrnellas, who retired in 2008 after a 31-year career with GM.

"People are frightened and extremely confused. They feel betrayed by GM. They were loyal to company and were told the company would be loyal to them."

[Melissa0116]

Teko,

This is true about some people that work for GM not getting what they deserve but unfortunately, this isn't even about the workers themselves.  It is all about management, unions and Government getting what they want out of this deal.  

Obama panders to the UAW: $30 billion more for wasteful auto bailout
June 2, 1:35 PM ·  
          
The federal government is giving another $30 billion in taxpayer money to General Motors to allow it to operate without having to cut excessive union wages. The Obama Administration is “gambling” on its ability to turn around the company under government control.

The Obama Administration has said it will now interfere not just with the “selection of the company’s board of directors,” but also in “fundamental corporate decisions,” and “major corporate events and transactions.” For example, Obama recently pressured GM to keep its headquarters in crime-ridden, economically-collapsing Detroit.

The $30 billion is excessive even if the Administration’s wildest hopes come true. Even if federal money were the only way to keep GM afloat (which it isn’t — GM could be made competitive simply by cutting its excessively high employee wages to lower levels that still exceed average American wages), and even if the bailout preserved not only GM jobs but also the jobs of “related suppliers and dealers,” “the price of the U.S. government bailout comes to about $125,000 per employee," according to the Washington Post.

If GM had rejected a federal bailout and takeover, and simply filed for bankruptcy in December, it would be recovering on its own right now, since it could have used bankruptcy proceedings to tear up the collective bargaining agreements with the United Auto Workers that saddle it with excessive wage and benefits and rigid work rules, and it would also be benefiting from the recent collapse of oil prices. It was record-high gas prices that forced consumers to buy smaller cars last year, battering GM’s finances, which were based around selling big cars. But gas prices have fallen from over $4 a gallon last year to $2.50 now. So the bailout is saving no jobs, it’s just allowing GM to keep union wages high at taxpayer expense, while keeping it from becoming competitive in the long run. (The recent drop in gas prices will also mask the effects of incompetent management of GM by the Obama Administration. On the other hand, the Administration’s CAFE and global warming regulations, which GM opposed before it was taken over by the Administration, will destroy tens of thousands of autoworker jobs).

The bailout is neither necessary nor likely to be successful in the long run. In its failed auto bailout in the 1970s, Britain did the same things that Obama is doing, like propping up high union wages and promoting the production of little “green” cars consumers may not want. Its bailout failed miserably, destroying the British auto industry’s chance of survival.

“‘Countries . . . protect ailing auto companies on the theory that they need to protect jobs,’ said Maryann N. Keller, an independent auto analyst. ‘But it’s not clear that protecting companies leads to the revival of those companies.’ As for the jobs, Keller said ‘a lot of that is bunk’ because Americans would buy the same number of cars no matter who the maker is. ‘Somebody would still make the parts,’ she said. ‘They would just be made for a different customer.’”

Why is the Obama Administration doing something so wasteful? Politics. The UAW is one of the biggest sources of money and manpower for the Democratic Party and Obama, and the UAW is now calling the shots. (The UAW spent millions electing Obama).

While taxpayers have spent tens of billions of dollars bailing out the Detroit automakers, the UAW has made little in the way of sacrifices, refusing to accept cuts in pay that could keep the automakers able to compete with lower-cost competitors. As even the liberal Washington Post lamented, “the union can boast that it has been promised no loss in ‘base hourly pay, no reduction in . . . health care, and no reduction in pensions,’” even though excessive union wages and benefits helped sink the company. Meanwhile, the government has ripped off pension funds and bondholders who loaned the car companies money.

The bailouts aren’t the only outrageous waste of taxpayer money taking place right now. Even bigger is the wasteful $800 billion stimulus package, which is harming the economy, both by triggering foolish trade wars that have backfired and cost at least 40,000 jobs, and by driving up interest rates for businesses that need to borrow money to expand or create jobs. (The government is keeping down interest rates on its own debt by printing vast sums of money to buy its own bonds, in order to finance the exploding national debt, which will result in massively higher taxes).

Hans Bader
DC SCOTUS Examiner

[teko]

What that looks like to me is what we have right here on this forum! No more and no less. We have your view and those who think like you and then, we have my view. I am addressing the cost to the workers and what caused it as well as who gets the fallout from it. Yours seems to be more Obama bashing, as usual. Only the passage of time will figure out who does or does not know what they are talking about.Refer to my post of three hours ago.

[Melissa0116]

Thank goodness I do not own a GM or chrysler vehicle.  I am with you on the Toyota buying.  I like toyota and Nissan as well.  

Respectfully, If i did own a GM vehicle, I would sell it since I really do not want the government messing with my vehicle whether being indirectly or directly involved.  The Governement just seems to mess those type of things up anyway no matter if they are Republican or Democrat.  Look at Fannie and Freddie.   The Governement was in charge of that and we all know what happened their.  

[PlateletGal]

"Yours seems to be more Obama bashing, as usual."

That is all it is and the "I hate government" comments. I would rather see proposed solutions from these people rather than the constantly complaining. I am an optimist and I know that things are turning around, thanks to our government. They prevented GM from crashing and prevented a Great Depression. But no matter what Obama and his staff choose to do... good or bad, I believe they will get criticized by some people either way.

[teko]

Well from what I understand N. Korea nut may be putting all the econemy concerns on the backburner for tonight anyway. The nutcase over there is planning to launch two long range missiles tonght.  I am sure we will shoot them down, however, the media is having a feast. I am sure MY president has a plan in place. How dare he not come out and tell his every thought to me! How dare he!

[jollyman069]

yea things are turning around......over 20,000 more GM wokers will be laid off another 30 to 40,000, people will loose thier jobs, from suppliers all the way down too grocery store workers...the gov't keeps printing money which is driving the dollar down on the world market..gas is going through the roof again??? please someone tell me where the econmy is getting better, did anyone see the car sales numbers for the month of may?? dowm betwenn 25 to 50 % over last year.....gee i guess it is getting so much better i think Obama ought to print another 50 billion dollars

[margypops]

Hes not around hes off to Saudi Arabia unless he thinks he should stay in case one Missile hits us, Joe will take care of us wont he, ........

[jollyman069]

when did you here this news teko???

[margypops]

It t was on the news an hour ago now we are on High alert,,,2 missiles aimed from the Coasts of N Korea,  they said they CAN reach the US .....

[Melissa0116]

Plateletgal,

I do not see you saying that anything that Obama does is wrong so don't come here and say that we will always find fault with Obama.  No, we have actually said a couple of things that have been good about him.  Like he did not release the tapes of waterboarding so that our troops are protected and also that he did not drop the benefits for veterans or make them pay for them.  We have offered solutions but when we do then you and some others say that it will not work or act like nothing was ever suggested to begin with.  I don't really care if you like what I have to say but I still respect yours and others opinion.

I really did not think that we should have ever bailed out the automakers.  What difference did that make anyway.  They still went into bankcrupcy.

[teko]

Actually, if you can believe the news Jolly, car sales were up in May, at least for Chrysler! And I think you are right on. I think Obama needs to quit printing money as well. Do away with Medicare, Social Security, SSI, Food Stamps, and all those programs we cannot afford to carry. Let each individual make his own path. Sink or Swim I say! Did you know that those programs did not exist in the Great Depression! All those people out there who would not know how to grow a potato, if they had the space to do it, much less be able to can it for winter. lol

And fear not! Those menial jobs that nobody finds worthy! Not a problem, the illegals are not to good to do them, that is why they are here!

[jollyman069]

I can't say much about medicare or ssi since i receive both awaiting for a kidney transplant. i guess i would be sinking, so you have me on that one.. but people who are able to work that won't because they receive benifits i think is wrong, and as soon as i can work after the transplant i will be back at work.....but things have to really change in this country and fast...but spending our way out of a recession wont work

[teko]

That may be tru Jolly, but personally I would rather take care of people like you and take my chances that it will. Otherwise is just not an option, which is what I am trying to point out. We are or at least were, a nation who cared and took care of each other, before all the greed killed it for us. By the way, if the system fails, you can have one of mine, I have two ya know!

[Melissa0116]

Teko and Jolly,

I totally agree with you both ending those programs would save a whole lot of money.  I never did use any of those programs anyway and as far as SSI is concerned; when it is my time to receive it their won't be any money left anyway.  So why even put money into it if I will never see it?  

Teko, you are so right about the menial jobs going to illegals here in AMerica.


Plateletgirl,

Oh, Teko has every right to say something about bashing Obama but you bash Bush every second you get so you can not complain about us bashing Obama.  Isn't that considered a double standard?  The "Pot calling the Kettle Black" eh........

[teko]

Well, it has been real folks. I gotta work tomorrow so off to the shower and in search of clean underwear. My mama always told me to make sure I had on clean underwear in case I ended up in the ER. I would wager a guess that if I get nuked in my sleep, no one will even see them!  Oh, I am soooo sick! C yall tomorrow! :D

[teko]

Oh Melissa. You said. So why even put money into it if I will never see it?  
SSI is differant than SS. SS goes into a fund to help you get by when you retire. SSI, is for individuals who cannot work due to a illness/disability. It sustains them while they cannot work. So in answer to your question as to why?

Because people like Jolly would die otherwise. Without the aid of those funds as well as some others put in place to help people. I respect and love America for these reasons and I do not want to c them gone.


To all: Is that socialism as well! I guess it depends on how you look at it and if you are one of those who depend on it.


Nite all.

[margypops]

Oh you guys are great its made my evening took my mind off Kim  Poo Pong ...I see that China has now bought into Hummer, how about that one..

[Melissa0116]

Teko,

I am sorry but I meant to say Social Security.  They already have said that in ten years it will be totally wiped out.  Medicare and medicaid do help alot of people who really deserve it and need it as well as SSI.  But, I guess it is the people that really abuse some of these programs that really urk me.  Like for instance, my cousin, who has been on disability for 10 years now for carpel tunnel and back problems but seems to be able to climb, run greenhouse, carry heavy rocks, type on a computer for 4 hours straight, and still collect tax refunds at the end of the year.  These are the type of people that really don't need the money.  She is not hurt in no way and thinks it is funny that she gets all this money for nothing.  She says, oh well, then I do not have to work.  There are people out their that really need the help and deserve it and seem to not get anything unless they really fight for it and then people like my cousin that do not care and take our hard earned money.  I will work hard to pay taxes for anyone that has a need and really appreciates it and doesn't take atvantage of a situation.  

Have a good nite.  

[teko]

Oh, I absolutely agree Melissa. More greed across the board. It is on all economic levels. Starting with our so called poor using the system all the way to government levels and leaving out nothing in between. This is why I think America is having a very bad go of it. All are guilty of the greed across the board, everyone trying to get somethin for nothin.

[margypops]

was wondering... How is GM  going to be able to SELL enough cars to pay the government back?.and they may need further loans

[HelpinUtah]

Economists that I've listened to on different news programs have all said that it will be next to impossible for the car companies to pay back the loans.  So, my personal opinion is that it won't happen - the taxpayer is going to have to front the costs.  

[redheadaussie]

I've been listening to NPR.org online and  I got to tell you...it is really funny! Here in Australia we are the total opposite! Our phone company was owned 100% by the government...not any more! Now we get ripped off by every Tom, **** and Harriet who want to make a buck! Same as our water provider....used to be government....our electricity...used to be government....but now too many things are privatised....and we are being ripped off!
So, for me, I am laughing! GM owned by the government!? If only if were that way again here!

[hope4thegoodstuff]

I have mixed feelings about the whole GM thing. I don't want to see anyone lose their jobs and their benefits.  Been there, done that, but.........

I used to work for a company that built wiring harnesses for GM.  Everytime the UAW would go on strike, one of their complaints were businesses providing them parts that were non-union.  We were non-union.  We started out at 7.25 an hour on the floor.  We had excellent quality and we were efficicient....and so we lost our jobs....to other countries....pretty sure they weren't UAW.  

But do we not have to take care of our own any more?  Maybe we need more marines in politics.  We don't leave one of our own behind..... : )  (Yes I know that is probably a bit simplistic.)

Now some of the union workers are losing their jobs.  How am I supposed to feel about that?  I don't know...When I heard on tv that they were only going to be starting out at 14.00 an hour now.  Well I felt really bad for them...OK not really.  I guess it's better to have a job at 14 starting pay than no job at all.  It's better than what a lot of folks in retail make.  The hours are probably better too.

But I do feel bad for the folks that are out of jobs.  You hear it everyday.  John Deere is laying off here in Iowa.  and there will be thousands and thousands more jobs lost before the end of the year.  What are we supposed to do?  How are people going to live?  It's terrifying.  On the other hand, our own companies and politicians have done this to us.  NAFTA, man I did not like the sounds of that from the very beginning.  Pappa Bush started it and I could think is get that guy out of office and get him out now and we did and Mr Clinton finished it...I couldn't believe it.  Wow.  For all that they sent the jobs out of country for cheaper labor, and face it there were other reasons....less environmental concerns (and that is probably a huge one...we can poison someone else...right?), and less government regulation....Did you ever see the prices of our products get cheaper?

How much of a GM vehicle is built by cheaper labor and the cars and trucks just get more and more expensive.  Heck you can buy a house cheaper than a car some times.  And the cars today are basically disposable.  Pets last longer than cars.