Is it me or does McCain look like he has plastic hands and arms as he held the microphone last night? Not to mention that he was walking like Tim Conway on the old Carol Burnette show (the little old man taking tiny tiny steps). He also looks like he has had a stroke with one side drawn - so does that leave us with Tina Fey (love those videos) to run this country if elected??? mmmm......let me think about that. She's pretty smart, but .......
I had respected his service - but last night with him wandering around while Obama was speaking rather than sitting down (like Obama did), and calling him "THAT ONE" - what was that about??? THEN, did you notice he diverted himself from shaking Obama's hand? I guess he thought "that one" might rub off on him or something. PLUS, he darted from the room leaving Obama and his wife to talk to "his friends" - the TN people that came to see them - I think the people there were MORE than happy to talk to Obama and his wife.
It was like someone had let Pappaw out of the "home" and wander around to make tacky comments while everyone is embarrassed for him. Come one Pappaw - go back to your room to eat the jello you nailed to the wall.....
Don't get me wrong, I haven't been an Obama supporter - but if Pappaw is all we have to choose .......
LOL, you crack me up. My husband and I said he looked like a dang wax statue that decided to move. I am sure they both wear bullet proof vests but it also looks like he has a back brace or something on.
I am a Dem so I know who I am gonna vote for but if I were Rep I would be freaking out at grandpa and Mrs. Alaska...
You're right - as I said, I respected his service, but he looks rough ....of course he is 72 years old. SO, if I were 72 years old, survived a plane crash, locked up for weeks with only minimal medical treatment, tortured, beaten by a crowd, I would .....yep, I would retire.... He served his country - we all respect that - but hanging on beyond your time isn't service - that's selfish glory seeking. He mentioned that if we couldn't go into a country and make a positive impact, it should be reconsidered. After watching him, I have personally decided that he can't make a positive impact on the mess we are in today. I have reconsidered him....my right.
The attempt to avoid shaking "that one's" hand, avoid making any sense whatsoever and "build a buncha nuclear plants".... just sad. Being from the South, I have seen the avoided hand shakes - the "that one" (by the way, would equate to calling him "boy") - it infuriates me. Trust me, if the TN residents didn't feel like him running from the room when he finished - was evident that they weren't his "Friends", I would be very shocked.
The main thing I am saying is that the man looks like he is in rough shape. His hands didn't move one time - looked like manequin hands, he could barely walk, was as rude to not only Obama - but Brokaw, too.... Pappaw needs to go the little retirement area, in my opinion. His military service isn't going to do the Mrs. Alaska Beauty Queen a bit of good if she has to take his place if he has a massive health issue. ----would you really vote for her for President?
Good night John Boy - Good Night Ellen - Good Night PAPPAW - go to the house.
Exactly! I respect his service - one of my closest friends is a career military person - I TOTALLY respect those who serve for us. Senator McCain made a choice to serve his country, he suffered the tragedy of war that we that don't serve can NEVER imagine, but that doesn't make him the best candidate to be the President of the United States of America.
I would never even dream of belittling his suffering, etc., - he just, in my opinion, needs other qualifications than that of his service and capture. His apparent health issues caused by whatever reasons, his choice for VP....enough said.... he just isn't going to be my choice.
I thought the same thing that he looked paralyzed or something but knew he couldn't be because he could move his arms. I know of his torture and I'm not sure if that has to do with the way he looks. But his arms look REALLY REALLY short. I always thought he looked like that creature from the movie Weird Science. And that has NOTHING to do with his service. Just MY opinion of how he looks and this is in no way to discredit his service.
And his service doesn't give him the right to discredit Obama by not even acknowledging him as much as to look at him in the other debate. Then to call him THAT ONE shows his lack of respect for him when Obama showed him nothing but respect. I just don't like him and he showed his true colors by referring to him as THAT ONE. Just plain rude!!
i watched the entire debate noticed what your talking about and yes it was rude....but we got soo much more to worry about than manners.....this country is in serious trouble.
As for McCain -yep hes an honerable war hero, real good man . nice family and sorry for all hes been through very courageous....bottom line he is OLD when and if he dies in the white house we get Palin for president good lord.....
Obamas got my vote and my conservative right wing republican (until now) husband is voting for him too.
the more i watched this debate the more i dred having to vote... i was a mccain supporter but by watching trhis last debate i think both men are so far out of touch with "main street" america it is scarey.. i am more confused then ever.. why couldnt colin powell or ted nugent run for president!!!!!!
rememebr mcacin was held captive for 5 and a half yrs, when they found out he was an admirmals son they wanted to release him but trhey had a pack u wouldnt be released till the men that were captured before u were released,, so when he turned down the releae he was beat and tortured unmercicfully for 3 yrs he can raise his arms above his shoulders, trhis man is a true american hero.. now if he would make a good president have no idea.. but he does know the world and politics.. so i guess we will see
I understand perfectly well why he has restircted movements to his limbs. I think it is wonderful that he served in the military. I find it terribly unjust that any of our soldiers are captured and kept POW.
My husband served and I am just as proud of him as I am of any who serve this country.
However McCain and the beauty queen are not the ones I want to see lead my country. To each his or her own but I will vote Democrat...
Actually, I don't like either candidate, not even sure I'm going to vote. I think we're all in trouble no matter which one wins. They both lie and make promises you know they can't or won't keep. Obama is a better speaker and says some things I like but he worries me. The 90 year old woman I take care of says Obama is an Eastern European Socialist as far as she's concerned. She also says McCain has about as much personality as a turnip, lol. She cracks me up. She's on smart, sharp lady.
I agree with whoever said they both are out of touch. You're right, it IS scary.
I wish Colin Powell would have run! I'd have picked him in a heartbeat, but he's too smart to run for president, lol.
Well, I am voting for Obama. I hadn't intended to vote Democrat but I am convinced he is the better option for us.
Yes, Yes, he was a veteran, yes, yes, he was tortured, and THANK YOU Quinn's Momma for pointing out that point to us - and THANK YOU THANK YOU to you for being a supportive wife of a soldier and THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU to your husband for serving us.
Bottom line is - McCain is in a Yes, I can do that mode, but doesn't know HOW??? AND, 72 ??? GOOD LORD - Let's be realistic - Palin for President???? THAT'S Scary!
No offense, but it goes both ways. His service was...55 years ago? A man changes a lot in 55 years.
On the other hand, I'm not sure I care for the idea of having a long term torture victim in a high executive office. You just don't get over something like that. Three years of torture? It warps your thinking.
Just look at the stories of holocaust victims from WWII. Most of them are perfectly wonderful people, but in times of extreme stress, they can have very specific, negative reactions to a situation... often one of fear or violence.
Is this something we want in a president? When this country has already made a glutton of itself on fear and violence?
I have always thought the President of The United States of America , should have a lot of stature amd both , OBama and Mc Cain seem like small people, neither of them appeal to me,. I thought Hillary Clinton had what we needed however I guess a lot of People felt threatened by her, the Male Media particularly I have been a Democrat however since I got my citizen ship ,so O'bama it must be , I hope you are all right and he isnt too Liberal.
Intersting perspective, I never thought of a war hero, former prisioner in the light that you described but you are right=no way could anybody go through that and not have some mental scars.
Like April says neither canidate is the greatest, and please by no means am I a big Obahama fan, He is the best option we have, in my opinion.
He sure seems to be ready to get out of Iraq, and into Pakestain or Iran or whereever BinLadin is hiding his worthless a&&. Not that BinLaddin shouldnt be hunted down and killed, We should have done that along time ago.
As for genicide,,,,why do we care so much about oil oh I mean the mideast and no one seems to givea damn whats happening in Africa???Notice how many times O'bama mentioned different african countrys maybe he does give a damn, and maybe we are going to be at war, in a recession for a long time.
Eh...I think no one thinks about Africa here because we don't have a real vested interest in that country. True, a lot of money is made off of Africa but they aren't an economy sustaining provider of resources to the US (like Middle Eastern oil).
Funny, there's a company that has been pushing for a fiber optic cable to go trans-continental to Africa from Europe and the US. Mostly I get the impression that despite their claims they wish to bring a stabilized infrastructure to African nations in need...they just strike me as investors looking to get rich off of contracts there (trust me, I've talked to one or two of the investors. I mentioned how altruistic and noble their projects were and they commented on what a "Curious way of looking at the project" that was).
Quite simply, Africa is...well...Africa. The continent has been rife with de-stabilization for as long as I can remember it. Its all very sad, but with our own economy going down the proverbial drain, we're really just focusing on our own issues... not that Americans ever really cared before all this trouble, of course.
Americans tend to be pretty flight of fancy about troubles in other parts of the world. We're a short attention span nation... eventually we'll notice Africa again and make alot of noise about it...for a while.
That was my point when I said oil,I mean mid-east,,basically we used the excuse of genecide for justifying Iraq after we found out they were not hiding weapons of mass destruction --so I was pointing out how very hypocritical our nation is. And sadly your right Africa just is and no one seems to care.Personally i think we need to fix the usa before we help anyone else.
Just pondering why would the fact that McCain spending 5 years as a POW qualifies him as having the experience necessary to run a war - he was behind bars nearly the whole time in Vietnam. Not a capacity that would seem to give him experience in actually running a war. This is not to discredit his service and scrafice and the horrifying experiences he must have suffered which would perhaps give him insight on our current tourture debate, errr, policy, which I believe he has actually stood behind Bush on. Puzzeling that he touts being a POW qualifies him as someone who can actually run a war campain, when he was isolated from the actual day to day active war experiences because he was isolated from that part by being a locked up POW and not an active, on the lines participant.
His arms are that way because he was tourtured and beaten every day as a POW in Vietnam. He did it for his country. To make fun of his arms is like making fun of a someone who was in a car accident and can't walk.
One of my guys at work just mentioned the movie, "The Manchurian Candidate" where POW's were brainwashed and one becomes President. Weird coincident, huh!?
My main point is that if he wasn't a POW - what could he add to the this country? Just explain to me what exactly he could "positively impact" our country and the majority of the people in crisis over the economy and most possibly could lose their home/jobs/retirement? ASIDE from him being tortured, beaten and etc., what can he add to this scenario. I haven't heard that yet? Enlighten me.....
POW or not a POW has no bearing on wether a person is qualified to manage and oversee major national and now, world, econiomic policies.
We all are feeling the effects of what the major deregulation of our banking industry has done for us the past 8 years.
How many people went into their bank and put their IRAs into those mutual funds and securities that that the banks were pushing ever so strongly with the belief that hey, this is my bank and has been for years, it is FDIC insured, it must be safe because my bank and Joe bank manager who I have known and trusted for years says this is the way to make more interest than the usual CD or IRA account? Did they really read the fine print?
How many people were tempted to refinance their homes because of those teaser, interest payment only adjustable mortgages they also pushed so hard? Did they also push the stable, record low fixed rate mortgages? Nooooooooooooo. This curent crisis is all about banks, hedge funds and investors making massive big bucks off our backs. Guess who one of Bush's biggest campaign contributors was? CitiCorp, WAMU and BIG BANKING!!! Opra's show last week on "explaining" the crisis to everyone in layman terms had me furious when her "expert" came on and said it was our falts for taking out the mortgages in the first place. I was proud of Sizie Orman (usually have a hard time watching her) when she said wait a minute, it is not Annie on the street falt and corrected him about the bank and mortgage companies tactics. Oprah just looked at her in a sheepish manner.
No, McCain will only follow the present administration's policies if the people in this country come down with a bag cast of Bradlyism whic will be much to our demise.
If he wasn't a POW...well he was a POW.
What could he bring to this country? Since you seem to support Obama, what can he bring to this country? Hope? America doesn't survive on hope. Or maybe higher taxes for people and companies who create jobs. That is Obama's plan right?
I am a McCain supporter because I do not agree with Obama on policy, he is a far left liberal that that does not fly in America. Was McCain my 1st choice...no, but he is better then the alternative to help this country. With Obama's policy it is going to bring the economy into a depression. What America needs is a true conservative on economic issues. Is President Bush...no, is McCain...no, but is Obama...far from it.
it was the fault of the bank and annie america who shouldn't have been buying houses they couldn't afford if the only way to get in was creative financing, and then didn't look at the fine print and see what was coming later on. we are talking about responsible adults signing contracts -- you must read and understand what is going on with your money. and it is also the bank's fault, they're not off the hook, with their predatory lending practices.
fact 96% of the worlds wealth belongs to 1 % of its population , point do our CEOs really need to make as much as they do, and how about the movie stars and the professional athletes, they make more than doctors, teachers,policemen and people I value in everyday society.Do you not smell the coporate greed??The middle class is becoming a tough class to stay in. I had a telemarketer call me 2 days ago and ask me about refinacing my house...all I could do was laugh.
You ask about what Obama can bring other than hope, what specifically can McCain bring that's better? And what exactly makes McCain better than Obama on economic issues? Do you think it's fair that people who make MUCH MORE money pay LESS taxes than other hard working Americans? It's been that way for years and it is NOT working (trickle down theory). So why continue that way if it's not working? I hope I don't sound sarcastic because we're all entitled to vote for whomever we want but I'd really like to know what the specific reasons are for thinking McCain is more qualified. And like most people have said, we are not discrediting his service but being a POW does not automatically mean we can assume he has the capabilities to run this country.
Both of the candidates are EQUALLY inexperienced in relation to this position because NEITHER of them have EVER held the position of President before. I understand we'll both still walk away voting for the candidate we want but I'd just like to know your reasons so that I can understand better.
The question I asked was "My main point is that if he wasn't a POW - what could he add to the this country? Just explain to me what exactly he could "positively impact" our country and the majority of the people in crisis over the economy and most possibly could lose their home/jobs/retirement? ASIDE from him being tortured, beaten and etc., what can he add to this scenario. I haven't heard that yet? Enlighten me..... "
You told me again about his being a POW - I didn't say he wasn't. Believe me, I don't necessarily think that Obama is best - I WANT to vote Republican - I always have - I just can't see voting for someone that NO ONE can tell me WHY he is better with him knocking on the grim reapers door (look at actuary tables - in all probability the man will not survive his term) and that leaves Ms. Harper Valley PTA to run the country and I am sorry - she might be intelligent, but if she is, she is hiding that extremely well. I don't think that "Gosh Darn it" our enemies will be enamored by the cutsieness that she brings to the table, and I don't honestly know ANYONE named Joe SixPack, so I don't know who she is talking about. She is making (with the help of media - mind you), women look like idiots.
Hope doesn't pay might light bill, and $2500 in tax credits as a single Mom for my health care doesn't pay the actual amount it costs at $12,429.00 that the policy costs.....please, tell me
AGAIN - convince me - tell me WHY Senator McCain is MORE qualified than Obama and WHY I should vote for Palin for President - NOT VP, but the very real possibility that she could be President. Please, tell me! I am not being sarcastic and I am not trying to aggitate - seriously, I want to know this....tell me. Educate me. (the POW question is not in dispute - give me something else.)
There are no facts I can find that show McCain is more qualified to be president. Try as I might, they are just not there to be found. If anyone out there can enlighten me as well on this issue please feel free to do so.
I just ran the numbers on McCain's health care proposal:
$5,000 tax credit Then taxing the actual amount cost of the health benefit
$ 450 average cost of a couples health care plan from employer with high deductables
$ 750 employers cost of insurance
So lets run the numbers: 450 x 12 = $5,400 Still a $400 cost to you
750 x 12 = $9,000 that will be added to your total income and you will be taxed on it
Now in some cases a $9,000 increase in income can really add up to a heck of a lot more in taxes because it could pop a lot of people over into a much higher tax bracket.
There is no provision for those with pre-exhisting conditions and so they will still not even be able to have the health care they despirately need. These were conservative estimates by the way......
Then, that child credit, what about those of us who's children are grown and no longer a dependent on our income taxes, what about those without children???????
Just a few thoughts.
Clarification of previous post (minus typos):
No, McCain will only follow the present administration's policies if the people in this country come down with a big case of Bradlyism which will be much to our demise.
Personally I find both canidates disgusting and will probably end up voting green.
To say McCain served his country is well and good but there is some reason to believe his hot dogging it caused a fire on one ship that killed most of the crew and he has 100% diability when I know vets who only have one legs lambskin ear drums and the melt marks from bullet hole across their chest.
That having been said the bail out shows both of them as sellouts, and Obama has carefully kept away from making any stand when he was in Illinois, and he is a product of Chicago politics which are aguably the most corrupt in America.
So cruel!! As if! Working as close to government as I do (it pays a few of the bills) I would much rather work up to being a king maker than a puppet! LOl I never knew you though so little of me!! :^(
Things I hope have been well for you?
Re: Obama the people I work with say he was practically a ghost when he was in Springpatch at the capitol. And his views towards fathers is bizarre to say the least so I am voting for the only female, black, responsible Presidential Canidate..
Considering McCain has supported and pushed for the deregulation for many years that's led to the current financial crisis, I'd say he has exactly the kind of attitude that we DON'T need in a president.
McCain is just more of the same. He can throw the title "Maverick" around as much as he wants, but it's meaningless.
When asked (supporters) why they think he has what it takes to turn this country's economic crisis around, considering he supported this destabilizing deregulation, they almost invariably respond;
"Well...he's a Maverick! He walks to a different drummer!" or some such nonsense.
But this is MEANINGLESS. It's just spin. He isn't a maverick, he's just another supporter of big business at the expense of the American public.
I'm curious just what it is that makes Obama a far left liberal...? I keep hearing this but not seeing any proof of it. In fact, he's moved to a more conservative position on a number of issues (which is costing him votes amongst the more liberal voters).
Frankly all I really care about is the economy. The rest is just flak (unless it's related to the economy. Like the war, for example. huge waste of taxpayers money).
When looked at from a strictly economic perspective, Obama does seem to be promising a better economic plan (assuming he follows through). Sure, its weak...but so is McCains.
Obama's would increase the national debt by 3.5 trillion over the next five years while McCain would increase the debt by 5 trillion. McCain is going for a straight across the board 25% tax break for corporate taxation while Obama has come up with a corporate tax break package that would give similar cuts...but in such a way that would hopefully not weaken the economy (as straight across the board cuts tend to do).
Of course, all of this may be a moot point. If the House Ways and Means has its way, alot of the candidates economic tax policies are going to mean bupkus.
(Hey, just read Forbes. They're pretty fair and impartial in giving this info out).
McCain's potential as president aside, my big problem with him is that he picked such a very stupid woman for a VP candidate. She's just....ugh. It makes me think fondly of Dan Quayle.
But I don't think that pick was done with any expectation of winning. It's something of a Mondale/Ferraro move. It will hopefully (for the republicans) build up political good will towards swing voters who lean towards democrats for the NEXT presidential election.
I definitely think this next President will be a "1 term" President? What do you think? My guess is that whomever is elected won't have it fixed in the next 24-36 months and won't be "popular" enough to be re-elected?
I think we all need to remember that it is people like McCain that has fought for our country, that is why we are able to give our opions freely without being lined up and shot. Let''s see, Obama has served a whole 173+ days and you call that experience? I pitty our country if he gets in, have any of you checked out his background? I mean really checked it? I doubt it, everyone is just hooked on that "change" word, well remember, it might not be the right change for this country, I don't trust him one bit, and where did all that money come from? Overseas? Yes, and who from? Think about it, the muslims want him in there, and I don't think he cares about Israel as much as he should, please people think about who you are voting for before you pull that Democratic lever....GOD BLESS AMERICA
I don't think Palin is stupid at all. I think she's a very smart woman, inexperienced yes, but not stupid.
Like I said earlier, I'm not crazy about either one of them. I think we're all in trouble no matter who gets in. It will be interesting.
Eh. I'm not sure exactly where McCain was when our government was tearing up the constitution and demolishing many of our freedoms over the past twenty years, but I get the impression he was right there with a pick axe and claw hammer tearing out the heart of the constitution.
But I'll be fair, I'm going to try to find the specific amendments and resolutions (etc...) and see how McCain and Obama voted on them (although Obama was still only a state senator when much of the damage was done, so I doubt he did much against or for the constitution one way or the other).
Okay, I did one brief check; McCain voted "Yes" for the original patriot act.
Therefore, in my opinion, he wiped out any claims he may have to having "Fought for freedom" at any time with this one huge, monstrous crime against the constitution.
Obama voted for the patriot act's renewal, which I'm not happy about, but on close inspection I see that he was in a minority (of 29) that fought to strengthen and impose civil rights protection the patriot act clearly lacked.
They failed (of course) and therefore agreed to vote on a modified version of the patriot act that wasn't quite so criminal (in regard to violating the constitution and taking away freedoms from Americans).
The only one to vote no on 2001 on the patriot act was Russ Feingold. Perhaps we should vote HIM in as president.
And April, I would say that Palin is clever, or perhaps crafty is a better word. Perhaps stupid was too strong a word. I would say she's ignorant. Hopefully it's not by choice. If so...then...ugh...I can't even think what to say. But the information on Grizzlebay.com makes me seriously wonder about her state of mind.
Savas: She's ignorant - definitely ignorant....maybe a little stupid (Palin). :)
When did it become an act of Communism to be a Democrat? I thought that "pulling the lever" was a choice, "please people think about who you are voting for before you pull that Democratic lever....GOD BLESS AMERICA". Does that mean if we vote Democrat we are not American? Why then do we even have more than one party?? hmmmm....wouldn't that make us...... I am seeing good questions of qualifications and the political process, but it appears that if ANYONE that runs as a Republican would immediately become qualified in that arena... ...remember George W is a Republican.... (not a good thing, it appears) Did you know Democrat is a form of the word Democracy.......let's see where have I heard that word???
THE ECONOMY is my main concern in the election. I left banking (thank Goodness) and work for a very small company now - and I am a single Mom. I can't afford McCains health care plan, and can't afford to take home any less than I make now - not to mention that inflation is killing us all.
As far as the Muslim issue - I am a Christian myself, but I also thought that in the United States of America, we were allowed by the CONSTITUTION to practice our choice of religions. And where did his money come from? It was said "Overseas" - where - who? An opinion was given, where is the information? WHERE and WHO "gave" him the money? ????
I guess if Santa Clause himself were a Republican he would be qualified??? Katie bar the door if he was a POW, he would be a shoe in! A political PARTY doesn't make you qualified.
Palin - good Lord, help us all. I don't trust McCain/Palin or Palin/McCain as she has said - my choice. ...my Democratic choice as an American.
Obama calls himself black and plays the race card..Lie from beginning..He is Bi-Racial. Why would anyone trust someone who lied right off the bat. Not to mention where the heck did he come from? Stepped outa his state as senator and said I'll try being the next pres...
I guess if he is bi-racial, he is half-black, so I guess he's a glass half full kind of guy. Who cares what he says he is - which - by the way, I don't recall him doing. At least not, THAT ONE.... When exactly did he play the race card? I am curious - I don't recall, seriously.
He came from Illinois - as opposed to her being the Harper Valley PTA President in Tinyville, Alaska and governor for less than 2 years.... Whether she is the VP candidate or not - she can by her own words - be a heart beat away from becoming President. Not to mention the drama surrounding her "long" term history as the governor of Alaska. BUT, she CAN see Russia from her house.
First of all I said "God Bless America" because we need it, second of all if you remember the muslims HATE us, being a Christian myself I also know it says in the bible to beware of the evil within.. Also, Obama doesn't really care about Israel, and it states in the Bible that those that protect Israel will be protected. Obama has only had 173+ days in office and you call that qualified? His new tax proposals will tax the business owners even more which in turn will cause more people to shut down those businesses and then more middle class will lose their jobs, think about it! It's a ripple effect and nobody sees that, except most Republicans....And yes his race is a smoke screen, if you don't vote for him then you are automatically a racist and that just isn't fair.. and yes GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!
Obama doesn't "really care about Israel"? How can you make such a statement?
As far as Obama's tax proposals, please check out fact check (org) because middle class America will get a better deal with Obama's tax breaks than McCain's.
Also, check out fact check (org) and find out how McCain lied about the relationship Obama had with Bill Ayers. Of course the Bill Ayers connection has been one of the centerpieces of the McCain campaign.
I think you yourself need to check the facts, numerous reports have said how Obama doesn't really care to much about Israel.
And no the middle class will not be better off because of the fact that those who own small businesses employ most of the middle class, and when they are taxed more it will cause those small businesses to let "the middle " class go, in turn they don't have a job, and don't you remember the quote he made to Joe the plumber? He wants to take Joe's money from him (small business ower) and spread the wealth...
And yes Obama has had a relationship with Bill Ayers, you need to check the facts, so don't tell me I am unsure....
I agree. I've had so many e-mails from Republican friends that claim that Obama is a Muslim and other false statements. Of course although the facts are out, these people are still spreading these lies. I think that it is fueled by fears.
Of course you are probably already aware that this is about religion. I don't think they will admit it, but their fears are fueling their votes for McCain. These same people voted for George W. Bush and we've seen the failed results the last 8 years.
Obama wasn't going to fine Joe, as McCain falsely accused him of. McCain would tax Joe's healthcare benefits and also since Joe doesn't currently make over $250,000 a year, Joe would benefit from Obama's plan.
I don't have a problem with these oil companies, who have ripped us off and made billions of dollars, paying more taxes. They need to give back to the people that they ripped off and have depended on for their success. They need to contribute to their community, just like taxpayers have been doing. Remember that the taxpayers are the ones who are currently paying billions to bail out the crooks at these mortgage companies and investment banks.
No kidding, I know Joe doesn't make over 250,000 right now, he wants to buy the business but is afraid because of Obama's plan, isn't it funny how facts get all turned around? So "NO" Joe would not benifit if he owned the business, think about it.
That's right. Obama made that very clear in his debate last night. What is also very clear is that the middle class (the people who are struggling right now and just bailed out billion dollars companies) would pay less taxes under Obama's plan and more taxes under McCain's.
So when Joe starts his business, yes he would pay more taxes under Obama's plan. But at least he would have the money to do so and the middle class would finally get a break.
What concerns me about Republicans is that they don't want to pay taxes, period. I know Republicans who live in Vancover, Washington and they live there so they pay less state taxes. They will then travel to Portland to do their shopping because the sales taxes are cheaper!
Who should pay taxes for the war in Iraq, education, infrastructure and our trillion dollar debt that we now have? Thanks to the Bush administration, we are now in serious debt.
Well, you believe what you all want, but President Clinton started a lot of the problems himself, and you also should be thankful to President Bush who has protected us from another terrorist attack for 7 years, don't blame Bush for everything, and as far as Republicans not wanting to pay taxes, that is just dumb, I am proud to live in this country and I know that paying taxes is just a part of it. And if it weren't for "war" we wouldn't have the freedom we do right now, we would be speaking another language. I have many family members in the military , they are proud of what they do, and I am proud of them.. I just hope and pray that some understand how dangerous it would be to have Obama in office, just watch and see what happens.
YES - that's exactly right - he WOULDN'T pay it now, and as he begins to PROSPER he would pay more taxes.... that sounds fair to me! Joe should be more prosperous and would pay more taxes as a higher income person - you can't stay in the same tax bracket because you used to have a plumber's wage, and now you are a self employed business owner. It makes PERFECT sense!
You are right on point - I love it. It amazes me that ANYONE that runs as a Republican is automatically qualified and is a conservative. - and they say they are for the "Joe Six Pack" - Look at this:
An ad released Thursday, October 9, by Sen. Barack Obama's campaign, titled "Tested," takes aim at Sen. John McCain's mortgage plan. "McCain would shift the burden from lenders to taxpayers, guaranteeing a loss of taxpayer money," the ad's narrator says. "Who wins? The same lenders that caused the crisis in the first place."
True. The McCain campaign acknowledges the plan would shift the burden to taxpayers.
Lie Lie Lie - that and accusations - unproven accusations - that's all I see from McCain. An act of desparation - I believe.
McCain kept calling the guy "Joe the Plumber" last night, like he didn't warrant knowing his last name - while Obama called him Joe. Behavior - common decency and behavior - McCain keeps on acting like a desperate man with his rash behavior and shows a lack of respect for the people he is trying to win over.
At least Joe the plumber wouldn't have to pay taxes with Obama's plan. If he did make over $250,000 a year, then he still be taxed on health care insurance. Of course this is if John McCain were to win the election.
Regardless, I don't know what is going to happen to Joe the plumber, now that the entire country knows he isn't a license plumber!
Whatever.................There is obviously no help for some peolpe, so if Osama/Obama gets into office we are doomed, just wait and watch and I pray I am wrong.. Good luck people! At least it won't be my fault because I'm not voting for him...
sorry i just really want to now why obama in office is a danger and mccain is not. lol bush has messed up this economy and in my opininon the worst president we've ever had and yes i'm young but study ... alot ... and clinton did alot of good and yea may not have been the best but it would be hard for me to ever look at a republican the same again. i'm not writing this to make ne one mad, just stating my opinion w/ a simple question?
I'm done,,,I guess those that vote for Osama/Obama will just have to wait and see what he does.....and McCain is not another George Bush, you have seen to many commercials, and that's called being brainwashed..glad you study a lot, just maybe I know how to read as well... I just pray we have God on our side in this election.
honestly neither president is the best but no i don't watch too many commercials i've watche the debates, the vp debates and kept up with it since the beginning when hilary was still running, i don't see how ne one can say mccain is not a nother bush he is in my opinion and many others. and yes either way we're gonna need GOD on our side in this election but we're really gonna need him if mccain takes office.
Jade, NewLeaf, and Cowgirl--thought-provoking arguments. 2wonderfulboys--not so much.
It's easy to spew the talking points of your favorite radio host without doing any research, but it's much more effective to actually do the research and seek the truth from more neutral sources. You can listen to Hannity and Limbaugh or even Randi Rhodes and Thom Hartmann (I suspect you've probably never even heard of the latter two talk show hosts, 2wonderfulboys)--I listen to all of them and then I do my own research.
And making references about who will likely be our president that offend and incite isn't the way to go--it's rather "Gayle Quinnell-esque" (to be polite). It takes much more thought and effort to actually back what you say with facts or references.
Like Angiesmom, I have watched the debates, I have looked at the topic and did comparison on my own. I have watched Hannity; Limbaugh, Rhodes, CNN-Cooper, etc. Watched both Foxnews (which is typically liberal); CNN; MSNBC; etc. My opinions have been formed by listening; reading; researching.
The one thing that I have asked continually during this campaign is: a REASON why Obama is dangerous, etc. Over and over, I have received no answer. I am a person who likes it spelled out - call me ignorant, but I like 1), 2), 3) - type specific answers. Nothing vague that can not be researched. If he is dangerous - by all means, if you care - tell me why he is so dangerous. Let me know so I can research it.
Vance and I took the topics offline and discussed them through message - I respect his opinions - don't agree, but I repsect them.
Bottom line for me is - McCain is a "Maverick" yes - we don't need that. Palin is just rediculous. His plans are not thought out and has no real plan as to how to accomplish good for the American people. Obama has different views and yes, that's scary at times when we are at the worst time in most of our lives - however, more of the same will not create change. Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing and expecting a different result. I feel more confident that if something, God forbid, did happen to Obama that Joe Biden would be able to pick up and do the job.
Opinions aren't individual attacks - we should have good, intelligent conversations regarding the truth and the actual facts of the election that will impact not only our immediate future, but the future of our children and grandchildren. In reality at 40, retirement will not be easy for most my age, due to decision made ourselves and on behalf of ourselves by corporation and yes, the government. We have to ensure that our children have a better shot at a better life.
Definition of Insanity: Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
I don't know if you made an honest mistake by calling Barrack Obama - Osama/Obama - but his accurate name is Barrack Obama - Osama is a terrorist named Osama Bin Laden (who was the correct terrorist of 9/11) - they aren't related in any way.
It's amazing to me that I have lived in the South my entire life, and we, at times, get a bad rap about racism- but most of the people I talk with here - are in favor of him as a MAN. It appears to me that the fear may be based on something that people don't like to say outloud - race. Sad.
Personally, I am proud that in my lifetime, we have evolved to a time where intelligence trumps race. It's a good to day to be an American.
For your information........angiesmom, cowgirlNERD......I too have done research, and yes I have heard of the people up above,,,and yes I called him Osama on purpose, not much difference between the two of them....and his race has nothing to do with it...He is only doing this for his career not our country....but go ahead and vote for him, and I don't appreciate being called ignorant,,I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you are...It is still a free country until he takes over...so glad the two of you are so much more educated than I am....or so you think
In his 2002 autobiography "Worth the Fighting For" McCain said with respect to his 2000 presidential campaign:
"I didn't decide to run for president to start a national crusade for the political reforms I believed in or to run a campaign as if it were some grand act of patriotism. In truth, I wanted to become president because it had become my ambition to be president. I was 62 years old when I made the decision, and I thought it was my one shot at the prize...
"In truth, I'd had the ambition for a long time... it had been there, in the back of my mind, for years, as if it were simply a symptom of my natural restlessness." 
If that's what drove him when he was 62 what do you think drives him now at 72? Ambition to be President!
I am not trying to be combative with you - Angiesmom and I have the same right as you - to express our opinions and ask questions as you have asked; and we have asked and not received answers.
Simply, I ask you the following - for my benefit, because I am, yes, ignorant, of the facts you are claiming to have knowledge that I don't (definition of ignorance):
1) How are Osama Bin Laden and Barak Obama similar?;
2) Why are we to fear Obama if he is elected?;
3) Why is McCain more qualified to be President (other than the POW and that he is Republican)?
4) What would happen to us if he were elected - how would he take away our freedom?
5) Why exactly do you consider that Barak Obama is not an American with the right to run for pubic office?
Myself, I would characterize "brainwashing" as having no real opinion of your own - not able to analyze an event or topic to develop your own opinion. Unable to answer a question that would involve an opinion of your own. Obviously, Angiesmom and I have not been brainwashed. We have answered questions and offered questions that have yet to be answered.
I haven't intended to insult anyone - healthy discussions are important in a quest for knowledge. Just like you, we are entitled to opinions - like you said - and yet WE aren't angry at your comments. We are attempting to encourage a discussion and have questions actually answered. It's not an attempt to upset - just a quest for answers.
PS. if you are capitalizing NERD in my screen name - I don't take offense, if that were the intention. I enjoy being a nerd.
Will you answer the questions to help my ignorance of those statements you made?
While I too respect McCains service time, it seems to me like he has been through the wringer. I feel like his health should be a big issue because should he pass away while in office, I KNOW that I do not want someone like Palin running this country.
You betcha, Mr Joe Six-Pack!
The thought scares the H*** out of me.
Honestly the only way to cut through all the spin and get to the heart of the matter is to google for specifics on senatorial voting records and the like.
As a policy, I don't beleive anything any candidate says in an election. I look at their past record on what they've done.
Now, to be safe, you have to go to reliable sources. Forbes, for example, is an excellent source for cross relating how bills passed by the senate have affected the economy directly.
Another good trick is to google for articles from newspapers from OTHER countries. There's one or two english papers I check in with occasionally, as well as Irish publications that you can't get easily in this country. Swiss, french...you can get an interesting perspective this way.
Heck, you can get straight, factual information on the Reuters wire that other papers will dress up, cover in spin and toss out in a biased way.
The problem here is there's TOO many information sources available. You Tube itself can be like a huge, ponderous unstoppable force when it comes to providing insane and strange commentary on everyday politics and life. Throw in biased news coverage from T.V. stations and newspapers... how can anyone really be expected to easily get to the truth?
I don't know if anyone knows or remembers, but before electricity elections were won largely by word-of-mouth-propaganda-rumour-mills.
It took time but you could get a good rumour going and after a few weeks it would sweep across a voting block and become an unstoppable force. With info sources like youtube and live wire, this effect can happen in a matter of DAYS.
Obama is also a chain smoker, he could also drop dead at anytime, and then Mr. Joe "the liberal"Biden would be president.. Obama also wants to take away our right to have guns, he is more into socialism, remember the comment "I just want to share the wealth"? I just don't trust him, his background of being schooled in a muslim school, his mother was an atheist, yes I know his grandmother helped raise him, also have we forgotten about the Rev. Right? He went to that church for 20 years! You can't tell me he isn't a little racist himself... Remember the comment he made when he first started out? He called whites "you people", and the famous comment about midwesterners who "cling to their guns and religion"? I just don't trust him...why are these things forgotten? It's because he is just a smart talker that likes to hear himself talk and people are drawn to him...........he also compared himself to Jesus by saying that Jesus was a community organizer...WRONG...he was a carpenter, a teacher and a healer...that is very scary to me, no one should ever compare himself to Jesus...Obama is not the messiah....but I think with his ego he seems to think he is...scary!
He was educated in a Catholic school first, for the same length of time:
Here's a link about the false claims made about him by the NRA. He's a constitutional lawyer--he doesn't want to take your guns (that's propaganda):
Here's some more info, if you're interested:
Oh, and regarding his connection to Wright, the pastor of my Catholic Church was brought up on 13 counts of child molestation (he died before his trial, but I believe there was restitution paid by The Church). I sat and listened to him preach every week, and while I thought he was occasionally a ranting old man, I thought he had good in his heart--so does that say something about MY character? Oh, and my son's music teacher was a child molester, but I didn't know it at the time (and thank God nothing happened to my son during the two group lessons he had with the guy)--the guy actually served time in another state for molesting several very young children and he is currently on the run after my friend's son told her that the guy was molesting him and she went to the police. So should I be judged based on what he did since I know him?
Regarding Bill Ayers (which I assume is what you likely attribute your thinly veiled insinuation when you refer to Obama the way you do):
The community organizer quote has been attributed to Representative Cohen, Susan Sarandon, and Diane Rehm, but not Obama, to my knowledge (I just did a quick search to see if I could find anything but I could not--can you?).
Can you, 2wonderfulboys, link me to some legitimate news sources or non-partisan, neutral, non-profit organizations supporting your claims about Barack Obama? I would love to read them!
p.s. April, here's a link for your friend:
I guess I'll have to go back and look at Revelation and other end time prophesies in the Bible to see how and why they link Obama with the anti-christ. It should be interesting!
One thing I didn't like about Obama him comparing himself to Christ. He does seem rather arrogant.
In a lot of ways the things he says sounds good and he does seem to be a better speaker than McCain but I do worry about him. I'm just not too sure about him. I don't particularly care about McCain either, though, so I have no idea what I'm going to do come election time!
"I have a friend who believes Obama is the anti-christ. No kidding."
Well, that certainly is a persuasive argument. I mean who could ever argue with your friend and particularly when 2wonder agrees?
This is the stuff of McCain supporters.
I have a friend who believes that world is flat and that babies come from the birds and the bees and guess what? He too is supporting McCain.
I was just stating something, mikesimon, no need to get insulting.
And teko, I really don't think race has anything to do with anything. I wish Colin Powell would have run for president a long time ago. He is very respected among many people.
I think what worries people about Obama is the type of company he has kept. I'd be worried about that whether the man was black, white or whatever. I don't care. What I care about is how sincere the person is, how experienced they are and if they're background is unblemished. That's what I care about.
Now you are playing the race card like Obama does, it seems as if we don't like him /trust him then we are a racist....that is very unfair...April and I are entitled to our opinion just like everyone else in this world...
First of all you can't compare a child molester to Rev.Wright....it is in the news a lot about priests that molest little kids,you don't see every day where a Rev. is ranting about whites, and how horrible the U.S.A is....so very poor comparison....and because you are so educated in all this ..have you looked up the word "brainwashed"...
Obama had once stated on his website (as a lower level politico) and I believe tried for legislation based on the premise that since fathers who see their kids more spend more money on them that if we increase the amount of child support fathers pay that they would see their kids more.
When I e-mailed his office they did not directly respond to the question other than to say he had also sponsored a tax credit for fathers who were current on child support.
@ this point I will probably just vote for Mckinney
Thank you for helping me to prove my point, 2wonderfulboys.
I keep thinking about Gayle Quinnell when I read some of these things:
What mikesimon and teko said.
Oh, and April--I commented on the "company he keeps" concern. He's not "palling around" or "friends" with Ayers--he knows him and served on a board with him, but doesn't have a close relationship with him. And, like I said, I've encountered two child molesters--one I admired and listened to weekly at Church. Would you really judge my character based on the fact that I know them?
And check out the link I posted about the anti-Christ--it discusses the book of Revelation and the whole ridiculous claim. (And no, it's not a partisan website.)
You still don't get it...Rev Wright teaches about hate, and does not like white people, you can't compare him to a child molester...you can't tell me that Obama didn't sit there during church and take all that in,,,your priest however was not teaching about molesting children ... see the difference? Your priest was doing that behind everyones back... big difference...it also confuses me that a catholic would vote for someone that believes in abortion...isn't that a double standard? I wonder what your "new" priest would think about that...and wasn't it a catholic priest that said the democrats are the "democrats of death? you probably have forgotten all about that one.....interesting
Uh He has said he is black ....many times..I am "proud" to be of the black culture. Need to watch the news closer. He plays the race card....he says "They will tell you i don't look like the guys on the dollar bills"..the says oh b the way did i tell you he's black. Yeap playing the race card..and why wouldn't Obama do that.....Brings the black community right to his voting booth. I am not a racial person but do not like someone who comes outa the sky and claims he is Black and act like he is the best salvation to this country... "Today is the day the oceans will cease to rise".....Yeap he said that 2 ..LMAO.
This country will be so libral. that we will not know what USA was founded on and for.
Oh yes Obama came from Illinios.... ah there's the quality for a president. Palin and McCain have more experience than Obama and Biden put together. That could give one a clue as to who is best to run the country. Course we could fly my neighbor in for a last ditch as a candidate.
Heh heh... McCain is in his seventies and is a career politician. You could get my 11 year old nephew to be his VP running mate and the two of them would have more time on earth as politicians than Obama and Biden have.
Please, don't try fallacy. That statement is worded to suggest that Palin has experience she doesn't have. more experience than Obama and Biden have, and it just isn't true.
Just out of curiosity, someone commented that "His mother is an atheist" as if this is a bad thing.
What exactly is wrong with being an atheist? Considering that atheists tend to be better educated, have lower divorce rates, and commit fewer crimes than those from other belief systems, I'm not sure why this is supposed to be a bad thing in a person.
I’m pro choice—no one is pro-abortion. To think so is simply ignorant.
Most Catholics I know hate abortion, would never do it (or would hope they would never find themselves faced with considering it), would counsel women not to do it, but are not for making it illegal. And they're democrats. Despite the Church getting involved in trying to influence people over it.
I use the brain that God gave me to make decisions—I don’t vote a particular way because a religion or an organization or some idiot on the radio tells me to vote that way.
People have been brainwashed into thinking the Republican Party has their backs. But it’s about votes. The Republican Party decided that they need to get more votes—they needed the poor minorities in order to get into control—those who may be immigrants (like all our descendants were), those who need financial help, those who don’t have healthcare. They needed the votes of the hard working struggling people of this country—the ones the Democrats help—the ones who would never vote Republican. So they found the common denominators and targeted those. They ran the numbers and discovered that most people who are minorities and poor are also evangelical Christians. And the sleepy, small-town, hard-working union people are also often Christians—and hunters. So they decided that they needed to get the Christians. How do you do that? You take possession of an issue that stirs passion—abortion.
And how do you get the gun owners? You get the NRA to invoke fear. The Republican Party takes a lot of money from the NRA in exchange for voting down any proposed gun legislation. So now you have the NRA wanting Republicans in control—so they spread the propaganda to try to make that happen (I sent a link about that last time around, but I doubt that you read it).
I know many people, my father included, who used to be Democrats and they now vote Republican for one of those two reasons—abortion and guns. My father lives out in the middle of nowhere—in a really small town in the country (because that’s the only place he can afford to live). He lives in a small trailer and can hardly make ends meet. He’s 72 years old and has had a triple bypass and surgery for a brain aneurism, but he can’t afford his medications, so he often goes without them. His health insurance stinks, so he doesn’t go for check-ups or regular testing like he should. He can’t afford the gas to go to the doctor either (an hour away), so he usually doesn’t. He tests for his diabetes one time per month because the test strips are too expensive and not covered by his insurance. And when I ask him why he’s not voting Democrat (which would be to his advantage and make total sense), his reply is, “I don’t want the government taking my guns!” That is just so incredibly sad and sickening to me. He believes the lies and propaganda the NRA spread. I think THAT is evil If you’re looking for the anti-Christ, you should look more closely at the Republican Party to find it.
Regarding religious leaders—they are human. Like you and me. I have had pastors say some things with which I do NOT agree and some things that sickened me and made me cry, sitting there in the pew. One priest recently spent the entire homily honoring and singing the praises of the pastor who molested all those children. He didn’t believe it, obviously. But I didn’t get up and leave—I view him as an old man who has good in his heart, even though he had really messed up thoughts. Maybe I should have left--but does the fact that I didn’t make me a bad person?
Um......how can you say that being an atheist is ok? This country was founded on Christianity...do you know that? I personally want God on our side, don't you? That's the problem with this country, it seems if you talk about it then you are a nut, well people had better wake up, if we start kicking God out of this country we will be in big trouble.. so yes his mother being an atheist does bother me,,, a lot
And thank you snoozie for being one of the few people on here that make any sense!!.
And to Angiesmom, I don't understand how you think at all, seems like you believe in double standards to me, but whatever gets you through life then so be it. And guess what I use the brain God gave me too, but at times you should also use your heart, in which that's why God gave us a conscience...so vote for who you want and I pray that I am wrong about him, I would hate to see us living like a 3rd world country some day..
So, atheists are better educated than Christians? How arrogant and narrow minded. This is the second time on this thread I felt insulted by just being a Christian. I suppose you're going to say that we think the world is flat and babies came from the birds and the bees just like mikesimon? He seems to think religious people, or Republicans are pretty stupid.
And I have to agree with 2wonderfulboys, his pastor scares me. I know, I know, he has distanced himself from his pastor now that he felt he could hurt his campaign. But this is the pastor he went to for 20 years. He was married by him, his kids baptized by him. I've watched the man preach. Don't tell me that Obama sat there week after week and didn't agree with what this man was saying? Then why would he stay? I know I certainly wouldn't go to a church where I disagreed with the pastor and his beliefs. This pastor is no real man of God. God is a god of love, not hate. This man spouts hate. Hate for whites, hate for America. It's downright scary. Don't tell me Obama was never affected by all this man preached.
I'm not saying Obama is evil, nor am I saying McCain is "all that". Personally, I don't really care for either one but we don't have a lot of chooses to choose from, do we? It will be interesting whoever makes it, that's for sure.
Do we not think this post has gone on long enough? Honestly we are all entitled to our own beliefs and convictions. The beautiful thing about this country is the freedom to choose who we want as our leader.
Everyone needs to go vote. Early voting is now open. I went today with my husband and we voted. At least then this senseless bickering can end. My husband read over this post and shook his head sadly that politics is even being discussed amongst us on a computer forum. As I said before he served two tours of duty overseas in active war zones. He said if eveyone on this thread would stop bickering and go out and vote. Then come back on here and pick something other than politics, religion, abortion etc. to discuss. We need to count our blessing and be proud to be American. Hug our family members close and cherish all the beauty around us rather than all the hate.
I am actually ashamed of some of the comments on this thread.
If we stop voting will all the politicians go away? Bumper sticker we saw today and liked...
Early voting is a state by state thing. Many (possibly about a third) of states don't even have it. But, I will try to refrain from responding. It usually is pointless and just ***** up too much of my time anyway.
Hey, don't get angry at me, I'm just quoting the latest statistical studies that were done. Ironically, they were done by the Discovery Institute, which is a Christian/Creationist Organization.
They wanted to prove that religion=good morals, (more so than education) via low divorce rates, low crime rates, etc... and were dismayed when the studies showed the opposite was true.
I suppose I should have said that a little better, though. The proper wording is; "Their is a higher ratio of those with a college education among those who are and become atheists.
Conversely, statistics show that those with college educations have a much lower chance of divorcing. The statistic goes up per every five years of marriage between college educated married couples."
Which I don't think is necessarily a comment on atheists having a lower divorce rate. It only shows that a better education tends to lead towards the tools needed to face the hardships of life and marriage. Being an atheist seems to just be a side result of having a college education.
And NO this country was NOT founded on Christianity. This is one of the most common misconceptions perpetrated out there.
This country was founded by a vast, differing group of people from all walks of lives. Christians, Jews, Hindus, muslims, catholics, atheists, agnostics, Theists, pagans, etc... ALL walks of life. You may as well say this country was founded exclusively by the English. By that logic we should still be singing "God Save the Queen".
This country was founded on the principles of religious freedom, and the freedom to choose how you worship. This is reflected by our constitution and the first four presidents, ESPECIALLY Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Virginia Bill/Statute of religious freedom in 1786, a Bill that was universally passed and states that this is NOT a christian nation, it is a nation that is to be represented by ALL people, of all religions.
BTW, Savas, while raised in both the Catholic and Judaic Traditions, is now an agnostic (with Theist tendencies. Sometimes). Which means he gets universally ridiculed by both atheists and theists/christians alike. Trust a Savas to be squarely in the middle of the battlefield without a Flak Jacket. :->
this country was too founded on Christianity,, where have you been? The problem is now we have to be politically correct about everything and people have easily forgotten what America stands for. That's the problem, politically correctness is what is ruining this beautiful place we live in, and I will stand up for my rights and what I believe in until the day I die.
Savas, well, I don't know where they got their statistics but I disagree with it. You see, I've heard different statistics. I guess it all depends on who's doing the polls, doesn't it? I will contend that divorce is just as bad on both sides. The sad truth is many people who claim to be Christians are being Christians in name only and not taking the scriptures seriously in their lives. Nor are they truly trying to follow Christ's example.
And yes, this country was founded on Christianity. Read "The Light and the Glory" by Peter Marshall and David Manuel. There are actual journal entries and letters in this book from the pilgrims and puritans. This will show you how they thought and what they believed. This country has strayed terribly from it's true roots. We are being fed lies now that are being taught to our children in schools now. No wonder our children are so confused and angry. They have no heroes to look up to anymore, when they teach them things like that Christopher Columbus was terrible, etc., etc.
But I stray from the original topic. I'm sorry. Read the book, though, and let me know what you think. I think it's quite good. Yes, this illiterate Christian does like to read a lot! And so does my college educated retired Air Force Col. father who happens to also be a Christian, married to my mom (who is also a Christian) for 30 plus years. I guess we're not all uneducated, stupid, gullible people who bounce from one marriage to another.
btw, Savas, many, many brilliant scientists, biologists, etc. are Christians and believe in a creator God? How do you explain that if all us Christians are stupid and uneducated? And I'll gladly provide names if you like.
I'm sorry but I do think it's highly offensive to suggest Christians are uneducated and stupid. I can't even believe that was mentioned here.
And just as a side note to that book I mentioned, the pilgrims and the puritans were not the same. Many people confused the pilgrims with the puritans and have even portrayed them inaccurately in our history books by showing them wearing the black clothes and such. The pilgrims were actually happy go lucky people who liked to wear bright clothes and dance. It was the puritans who were more rigid and wore the somber clothing and such, just in case someone's interested.
I've been reading this forum with interest, granted it has been laughable at times. I am a democrat and I will be voting for Obama. I have always been pro-choice, and this is why. Not only do I not want people to make decisions about my body, or the bodies of my children and grandchildren, I don't feel that anyone has the right legally or morally to tell anyone else what to do.
Tell me honestly what you would do if you had a 11, 12, 13 year old daughter that had been brutally raped. Would you then force this child to go through the trauma of childbirth, then through the pain of giving the child up for adoption, or would you help to get the unwanted, brutal pregnancy aborted so this young girl could have a chance of growing into a young woman, getting an education and then deciding if she wanted to have a family?
I'm not talking about going out and getting pregnant and having it aborted just to do the same thing over and over again, I'm talking about a victim of brutal rape. That's why I am pro-choice.
IMO I feel that Obama will be one of the best Presidents to ever sit in the White House. No I am not black, I'm not middle class, I'll be one to have to pay higher taxes, but that is neither here nor there. Obama has what it take to get this country turned back around after 8 years of going to hell in a handbasket. None of us can afford an other 4 years of that.
For anyone to keep harping on the Ayers associaton or about the pastor of Obama's former church is ridiulous. As a Christian, yes a Christian, I believe that anyone can be forgiven. None of us have the right to pass judgement on anyone else, only God has that right. I don't want to stand before Christ and try to explain why I was trying to take over his job, personally I think God is doing a pretty good job, why mess up something that isn't broken?
I never suggested that Christians are stupid and uneducated. I pointed out a difference in college degrees between one group and the other, with the result of a college education/degree leading to a lower incidence in the divorce rate.
As to statistics...well...there are statistics and there are statistics. These particular statistics by the discovery institute (a creationist group) are backed up by other groups doing similar studies. I can think of many reasons why they make sense, including the fact that a college degree can lead to a higher salaried job, which aids in relieving stress on marriages. I've seen a lot of statistics and info out there lately that's either straight out lying or just done poorly. I don't assume a statistic is true until I know where it comes from, and how it was done.
Would someone please first define to me what they mean by "Founded by Christians."?
I think you're confusing the difference between a religious group (Puritans) first coming to this land and a diverse group of people who made up the 13 colonies declaring themselves a nation and setting down a constitution.
Remember, the LAND does not make the country, it is the people. Our forefathers understood this when they wrote the constitution. After all, if this was a christian nation founded only by christians, then why would they have bothered to write a constitution protecting the right to practice religion, any religion? Why would they have written bills and made laws declaring that no one can be discriminated against when it comes to becoming a representative of this government based on religion? That no religious group shall have preeminence over another?
And lets say that this nation was founded by christians?
So what? By that logic, this nation should not only be worshipping the pagan Gods of the American Indians, but their religious beliefs and laws (The Native Americans) should be the true law of the land.
Savas, I'm not angry with you, nor do I want to fight with you. I was just a little taken aback by what I felt like was an attack on my faith. I do take my faith seriously so any attack on my faith feels like a personal attack. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you in any way. I don't want hurt feelings or fighting, etc. I just wanted everyone to respect everyone regardless of their beliefs.
And kiddthekatt, let's pleeeeese not drag abortion into this thread. That's just one hot topic that will really get people off and fighting and then we'll get the thread pulled. We've already strayed too far from the original topic.
Everyone, let's please try to remain respectful to each other, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.
With that said, with all the attacks McCain's been leveling at Obama, I've become more and more turned off. I don't like to see either candidate attack the other. I just wish they'd talk to the people and tell us what they are going to do for us without resorting to personal and/or untruthful attacks against the other. I'm so fed up with the whole thing.
Yoooou ooooonly hurt! The oooones yooooou looooove!!! :->
heh heh...sorry luv, that first post i wrote after a 12 hour marathon at work. Exhaustion makes for a sloppy choice of words. I realized the next day what I'd said could be easily taken the wrong way.
The side bar with atheists (regarding the study) was one of many that showed that they aren't any more or less moral than any other religious group out there. Frankly, you'd never guess who has the lowest divorce rate in the world.
It's the Japanese, coming in at about a 6% divorce rate, as compared to us Americans with our 50% divorce rate. The Japanese are a fairly irreligious lot and are fairly atheistic in their views, but they don't divorce. Hmmm....
The other stuff however...well, I'm a strict Jeffersonian which makes me a fairly adamant arguer when it comes to political philosophy and what this country is and isn't supposed to be.
Christianity has had a strong influence on how this country has formed. For interesting reading, look for some of the original newspaper articles from the 1800's as well as bills and laws that were passed that deal with the outlawing of Mormon Polygamy.
Everyone assumes that it was a moral/religious issue but there was a real worry about the setting up of a mormon state that would succeed from the Union AND grow at an exponential rate due to the mormon practice of polygamy. Outlawing polygamy was, in part, an attempt to keep the mormons from having a population explosion that would threaten the Union.
BUT, this is just me rambling on one of my favorite subjects, old, long past history. Something I do when I'm tired after a long, 11 hour day at work. :-)
I personally think it is pretty basic and simple....
Choose a candidate with experience or with 14 months as a senator. Those that choose someone with NO experience baffles me. Obama can Say anything..and he is doing axactly that. Bunch of rhetoric...I could bring up Stan the fisheran for president...and if he had his backers throwing money to him for his getting elected and someone tying up his speeches, but gosh he would win! If Obama wins get ready for a socialist USA. You will reap your rewards for first few moths..then get ready to be at the mercy of his coherts. The man scared me from the time i first saw him...where the heck did he come from besides Illinois? Both candidates will pose problems. But fer cripe sake..Don't vote for someone with no experience because we need change. LOL i every election we need change.
Oh and as far as Powell voting for Obama....means didly..he is one person out of how many people in this country? When asked by a reporter why he voted for Obama....he walked away and said he had calls to make. Oyyyy... "there's" yer sign" He is voting for him probably for 2 reasons...Obama is Bi-Racial. Which yea it pizzes me off Obama doesn't say that..he says he is of the black community. Hmmm i think Powell is Bi-Racial as well what's that tell ya. The money Obama gets? gee ya think Acorn and the radical people who want "change" could be contributing? K
KEEP your EYES and your votes based on the simple facts. "experience"
As far as Clinton leaving Bush a surplus?...Facts:
Verifying this is as simple as accessing the U.S. Treasury (see note about this link below) website where the national debt is updated daily and a history of the debt since January 1993 can be obtained. Considering the government's fiscal year ends on the last day of September each year, and considering Clinton's budget proposal in 1993 took effect in October 1993 and concluded September 1994 (FY1994), here's the national debt at the end of each year of Clinton Budgets:
As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a budget surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the budget was almost balanced in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration.
Here is a little food for thought on a college education and divorce rate. So many times people that do not go to college get married shortly after high school and thus are younger and less mature. The four to five years that it takes to get through most undergrad degrees gives people time to mature and make a better choice. Also going to college widens the selection pool especially when a person lives in a more rural setting and attends a small high school.
Statistic show that the divorce rate for people that wait until they are at least 25 years old regardless of education is much lower than those married at 18 or 19.
Obama voted against the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, saying "On an issue like partial birth abortion, I strongly believe that the state can properly restrict late-term abortions. I have said so repeatedly. All I've said is we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother.
That is his stance? What does "restrcict" actually mean? Kinda leaves it wide open for abortions. Hey this way...all the young folks engaging in sex...get a free pass to have a child! WHich we in turn pay for abortions....and any social services that they mother and child may need. If we put a restriction on having an abortion maybe the kids will think more of self control. In a case of rape....that is the only provision i would accept and only if their was proof.
BTW where is Obama getting 200 Billion dollars to boost his campaign. All presidents have always disclosed this...Why can't he? To dang sneaky for me.
Of course you and many others are going to claim it "means didly" now that Powell has endorsed Obama, but a couple of days ago, April posted that she admired Powell so much that she would vote for him if he had been running. That's why I posted the link for her (but she must not have seen it).
And actually, it does say something that a much-admired Republican and long-time friend of John McCain's would come out and do this. He could have quietly sat back and said nothing and privately voted for Obama on November 4th. But he didn't. That speaks volumes, whether you want to admit it or not.
Regarding experience, I think Colin Powell said it best on Meet The Press:
Stand corrected...Obama has gotten 200 million to support his campaign...from where?
I would vote for Powell also if he was running for president. What i mean is...he is one person among millions. Everyone thinks this is the most awesome thing...I just see it as another vote for Obama. No Big Deal. Many republicans are voting democratic as well as many democratic are voting republican. And if Powell didn't want to make a big stink about voting for Obama..why did he? I think it does speak....only to those who choose to think this is an awesome thing.... I keep it simple and very clear facts on why Obama is NO leader for sure. Powell's vote was a shocker for sure. I just don't trust Obama as far as all his ties he DOES and Did have...nor either a record or leg to stand on as to why he should be President. To think Americans have stooped this low to vote for a candidate who came outa nowhere with no proven record..Speaks Volumes to me!