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McCain / Obama - Debate - Pappaw escapes from the home
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McCain / Obama - Debate - Pappaw escapes from the home

Is it me or does McCain look like he has plastic hands and arms as he held the microphone last night?  Not to mention that he was walking like Tim Conway on the old Carol Burnette show (the little old man taking tiny tiny steps).  He also looks like he has had a stroke with one side drawn - so does that leave us with Tina Fey (love those videos) to run this country if elected???  mmmm......let me think about that.  She's pretty smart, but .......

I had respected his service - but last night with him wandering around while Obama was speaking rather than sitting down (like Obama did), and calling him "THAT ONE" - what was that about???  THEN, did you notice he diverted himself from shaking Obama's hand?  I guess he thought "that one" might rub off on him or something.   PLUS, he darted from the room leaving Obama and his wife to talk to "his friends" - the TN people that came to see them - I think the people there were MORE than happy to talk to Obama and his wife.

It was like someone had let Pappaw out of the "home" and wander around to make tacky comments while everyone is embarrassed for him.   Come one Pappaw - go back to your room to eat the jello you nailed to the wall.....  

Don't get me wrong, I haven't been an Obama supporter - but if Pappaw is all we have to choose .......





Tags: Barack Obama, McCain, debate, election
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212720_tn?1304379015
LOL, you crack me up. My husband and I said he looked like a dang wax statue that decided to move.  I am sure they both wear bullet proof vests but it also looks like he has a back brace or something on.  

I am a Dem so I know who I am gonna vote for but if I were Rep I would be freaking out at grandpa and Mrs. Alaska...
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389974_tn?1331018842
For being in a plane crash, then beaten by a crowd, then locked up for weeks with only minimal medical treatment, later being tortured -- he moves well.
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172023_tn?1334675884
No one can compete with his history.  If we are using torture and POW captivity as the prerequisite for a good presidential candidate, there shouldn't even be a campaign.  

If we are using any other criteria, we still have a race, I think.
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Avatar_f_tn
You're right - as I said, I respected his service, but he looks rough ....of course he is 72 years old.  SO, if I were 72 years old, survived a plane crash, locked up for weeks with only minimal medical treatment, tortured, beaten by a crowd, I would .....yep, I would retire....   He served his country - we all respect that - but hanging on beyond your time isn't service - that's selfish glory seeking.     He mentioned that if we couldn't go into a country and make a positive impact, it should be reconsidered.  After watching him, I have personally decided that he can't make a positive impact on the mess we are in today.  I have reconsidered him....my right.

The attempt to avoid shaking "that one's" hand, avoid making any sense whatsoever and "build a buncha nuclear plants"....  just sad.   Being from the South, I have seen the avoided hand shakes - the "that one" (by the way, would equate to calling him "boy") - it infuriates me.   Trust me, if the TN residents didn't feel like him running from the room when he finished - was evident that they weren't his "Friends", I would be very shocked.  

The main thing I am saying is that the man looks like he is in rough shape.  His hands didn't move one time - looked like manequin hands, he could barely walk, was as rude to not only Obama - but Brokaw, too....  Pappaw needs to go the little retirement area, in my opinion.   His military service isn't going to do the Mrs. Alaska Beauty Queen a bit of good if she has to take his place if he has a massive health issue.   ----would you really vote for her for President?  

Good night John Boy - Good Night Ellen - Good Night PAPPAW - go to the house.
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Avatar_f_tn
Exactly!  I respect his service - one of my closest friends is a career military person - I TOTALLY respect those who serve for us.  Senator McCain made a choice to serve his country, he suffered the tragedy of war that we that don't serve can NEVER imagine, but that doesn't make him the best candidate to be the President of the United States of America.

I would never even dream of belittling his suffering, etc., -  he just, in my opinion, needs other qualifications than that of his service and capture.   His apparent health issues caused by whatever reasons, his choice for VP....enough said....  he just isn't going to be my choice.  



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162784_tn?1227299650
I thought the same thing that he looked paralyzed or something but knew he couldn't be because he could move his arms.  I know of his torture and I'm not sure if that has to do with the way he looks.  But his arms look REALLY REALLY short.  I always thought he looked like that creature from the movie Weird Science.  And that has NOTHING to do with his service.  Just MY opinion of how he looks and this is in no way to discredit his service.  

And his service doesn't give him the right to discredit Obama by not even acknowledging him as much as to look at him in the other debate.  Then to call him THAT ONE shows his lack of respect for him when Obama showed him nothing but respect.  I just don't like him and he showed his true colors by referring to him as THAT ONE.  Just plain rude!!
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599170_tn?1300977493
i watched the entire debate noticed what your talking about and yes it was rude....but we got soo much more to worry about than manners.....this country is in serious trouble.

As for McCain -yep hes an honerable war hero, real good man . nice family  and sorry for all hes been through very courageous....bottom line he is OLD  when and if he dies in the white house we get Palin for president good lord.....


Obamas got my vote and my conservative right wing republican (until now) husband is voting for him too.
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518031_tn?1295578974
the more i watched this debate the more i dred having to vote... i was a mccain supporter but by watching trhis last debate i think both men are so far out of touch with "main street" america it is scarey.. i am more confused then ever.. why couldnt colin powell or ted nugent run for president!!!!!!
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518031_tn?1295578974
rememebr mcacin was held captive for 5 and a half yrs, when they found out he was an admirmals son they wanted to release him but trhey had a pack u wouldnt be released till the men that were captured before u were released,, so when he turned down the releae he was beat and tortured unmercicfully for 3 yrs he can raise his arms above his shoulders, trhis man is a true american hero.. now if he would make a good president have no idea.. but he does know the world and politics.. so i guess we will see
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599170_tn?1300977493
LOL Ted Nugget for Pres.
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Avatar_f_tn
mccain has been disabled since he was a young man as a result of torture, so making assessments based on his ability to move well is very much unfair and not entirely caused by age.  

has any one read day gardner's web site re: obama and if so, what are your thoughts???
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212720_tn?1304379015
I understand perfectly well why he has restircted movements to his limbs. I think it is wonderful that he served in the military. I find it terribly unjust that any of our soldiers are captured and kept POW.

My husband served and I am just as proud of him as I am of any who serve this country.

However McCain and the beauty queen are not the ones I want to see lead my country. To each his or her own but I will vote Democrat...
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203342_tn?1328740807
Actually, I don't like either candidate, not even sure I'm going to vote. I think we're all in trouble no matter which one wins. They both lie and make promises you know they can't or won't keep. Obama is a better speaker and says some things I like but he worries me. The 90 year old woman I take care of says Obama is an Eastern European Socialist as far as she's concerned. She also says McCain has about as much personality as a turnip, lol. She cracks me up. She's on smart, sharp lady.
I agree with whoever said they both are out of touch. You're right, it IS scary.

I wish Colin Powell would have run! I'd have picked him in a heartbeat, but he's too smart to run for president, lol.
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Avatar_f_tn
Well, I am voting for Obama.  I hadn't intended to vote Democrat but I am convinced he is the better option for us.

Yes, Yes, he was a veteran, yes, yes, he was tortured, and THANK YOU Quinn's Momma for pointing out that point to us - and THANK YOU THANK YOU to you for being a supportive wife of a soldier and THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU to your husband for serving us.

Bottom line is - McCain is in a Yes, I can do that mode, but doesn't know HOW???  AND, 72 ???  GOOD LORD - Let's be realistic - Palin for President????  THAT'S Scary!

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I didn't mean that to sound bad to you - I was really saying thank you to you and your family, and your point of view was especially important because you have been there.

:)
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599170_tn?1300977493
I like how all are respecting each other opinions high five to everyone !!!!!
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518031_tn?1295578974
lmao@cheri
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228686_tn?1211558307
No offense, but it goes both ways. His service was...55 years ago? A man changes a lot in 55 years.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I care for the idea of having a long term torture victim in a high executive office.  You just don't get over something like that. Three years of torture? It warps your thinking.

Just look at the stories of holocaust victims from WWII. Most of them are perfectly wonderful people, but in times of extreme stress, they can have very specific, negative reactions to a situation... often one of fear or violence.

Is this something we want in a president? When this country has already made a glutton of itself on fear and violence?
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535822_tn?1389452880
I have always thought the President of The United States of America , should have a lot of stature amd both , OBama and Mc Cain seem like small people, neither of them appeal to me,.  I thought Hillary Clinton had what we needed however I guess a lot of People felt threatened by her, the Male Media particularly I have been a Democrat however since I got my citizen ship ,so O'bama it must be , I hope you are all right and he isnt too Liberal.
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599170_tn?1300977493
Intersting perspective, I never thought of a war hero, former prisioner in the light that you described but you are right=no way could anybody go through that and not have some mental scars.

Like April says neither canidate is the greatest, and please by no means am I a big Obahama fan, He is the best option we have, in my opinion.

He sure seems to be ready to get out of Iraq, and into Pakestain or Iran or whereever BinLadin is hiding his worthless a&&. Not that BinLaddin shouldnt be hunted down and killed, We should have done that along time ago.

As for genicide,,,,why do we care so much about oil oh I mean the mideast and no one seems to givea damn whats happening in Africa???Notice how many times O'bama mentioned different african countrys maybe he does give a damn, and maybe we are going to be at war, in a recession for a long time.
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228686_tn?1211558307
Eh...I think no one thinks about Africa here because we don't have a real vested interest in that country. True, a lot of money is made off of Africa but they aren't an economy sustaining provider of resources to the US (like Middle Eastern oil).

Funny, there's a company that has been pushing for a fiber optic cable to go trans-continental to Africa from Europe and the US. Mostly I get the impression that despite their claims they wish to bring a stabilized infrastructure to African nations in need...they just strike me as investors looking to get rich off of contracts there (trust me, I've talked to one or two of the investors. I mentioned how altruistic and noble their projects were and they commented on what a "Curious way of looking at the project" that was).

Quite simply, Africa is...well...Africa. The continent has been rife with de-stabilization for as long as I can remember it. Its all very sad, but with our own economy going down the proverbial drain, we're really just focusing on our own issues... not that Americans ever really cared before all this trouble, of course.

Americans tend to be pretty flight of fancy about troubles in other parts of the world. We're a short attention span nation... eventually we'll notice Africa again and make alot of noise about it...for a while.

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599170_tn?1300977493
That was my point when I said oil,I mean mid-east,,basically we used the excuse of genecide for justifying Iraq after we found out they were not hiding weapons of mass destruction --so I was pointing out how very hypocritical our nation is. And sadly your right Africa just is and no one seems to care.Personally i think we need to fix the usa before we help anyone else.
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Avatar_f_tn
Just pondering why would the fact that McCain spending 5 years as a POW qualifies him as having the experience necessary to run a war - he was behind bars nearly the whole time in Vietnam. Not a capacity that would seem to give him experience in actually running a war. This is not to discredit his service and scrafice and the horrifying experiences he must have suffered which would perhaps give him insight  on our current tourture debate, errr, policy, which I believe he has actually stood behind Bush on.  Puzzeling that he touts being a POW qualifies him as someone who can actually run a war campain, when he was isolated from the actual day to day active war experiences because he was isolated from that part  by being a  locked up POW and not an active, on the lines participant.
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599170_tn?1300977493
Very good point newleaf.
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Avatar_f_tn
His arms are that way because he was tourtured and beaten every day as a POW in Vietnam.  He did it for his country.  To make fun of his arms is like making fun of a someone who was in a car accident and can't walk.  

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Avatar_f_tn
One of my guys at work just mentioned the movie, "The Manchurian Candidate" where POW's were brainwashed and one becomes President.  Weird coincident, huh!?

My main point is that if he wasn't a POW - what could he add to the this country?  Just explain to me what exactly he could "positively impact" our country and the majority of the people in crisis over the economy and most possibly could lose their home/jobs/retirement?  ASIDE from him being tortured, beaten and etc., what can he add to this scenario.  I haven't heard that yet?  Enlighten me.....
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Avatar_f_tn
Check this out.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8__aXxXPVc&feature=related
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Avatar_f_tn
POW or not a POW has no bearing on wether a person is qualified to manage and oversee major national and now, world, econiomic policies.

We all are feeling the effects of what the major deregulation of our banking industry has done for us the past 8 years.

How many people went into their bank and put their IRAs into those mutual funds and securities that that the banks were pushing ever so strongly with the belief that hey, this is my bank and has been for years, it is FDIC insured, it must be safe because my bank and Joe bank manager who I have known and trusted for years says this is the way to make more interest than the usual CD or IRA account? Did they really read the fine print?

How many people were tempted to refinance their homes because of those teaser, interest payment only adjustable mortgages they also pushed so hard? Did they also push the stable, record low fixed rate mortgages? Nooooooooooooo. This curent crisis is all about banks, hedge funds and investors making massive big bucks off our backs. Guess who one of Bush's biggest campaign contributors was? CitiCorp, WAMU and BIG BANKING!!!  Opra's show last week on "explaining" the crisis to everyone in layman terms had me furious when her "expert" came on and said it was our falts for taking out the mortgages in the first place. I was proud of Sizie Orman (usually have a hard time watching her) when she said wait a minute, it is not Annie on the street falt and corrected him about the bank and mortgage companies tactics. Oprah just looked at her in a sheepish manner.

No, McCain will only follow the present administration's policies if the people in this country come down with a bag cast of Bradlyism whic will be much to our demise.
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580755_tn?1357673215
If he wasn't a POW...well he was a POW.
What could he bring to this country? Since you seem to support Obama, what can he bring to this country? Hope? America doesn't survive on hope. Or maybe higher taxes for people and companies who create jobs. That is Obama's plan right?

I am a McCain supporter because I do not agree with Obama on policy, he is a far left liberal that that does not fly in America. Was McCain my 1st choice...no, but he is better then the alternative to help this country. With Obama's policy it is going to bring the economy into a depression. What America needs is a true conservative on economic issues. Is President Bush...no, is McCain...no, but is Obama...far from it.
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Avatar_f_tn
it was the fault of the bank and annie america who shouldn't have been buying houses they couldn't afford if the only way to get in was creative financing, and then didn't look at the fine print and see what was coming later on.  we are talking about responsible adults signing contracts -- you must read and understand what is going on with your money.  and it is also the bank's fault, they're not off the hook, with their predatory lending practices.  
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599170_tn?1300977493
fact 96% of the worlds wealth belongs to 1 % of its population , point do our CEOs really need to make as much as they do, and how about the movie stars and the professional athletes, they make more than doctors, teachers,policemen and people I value in everyday society.Do you not smell the coporate greed??The middle class is becoming a tough class to stay in.  I had a telemarketer call me 2 days ago and ask me about refinacing my house...all I could do was laugh.
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162784_tn?1227299650
You ask about what Obama can bring other than hope, what specifically can McCain bring that's better?  And what exactly makes McCain better than Obama on economic issues?  Do you think it's fair that people who make MUCH MORE money pay LESS taxes than other hard working Americans? It's been that way for years and it is NOT working (trickle down theory).  So why continue that way if it's not working?  I hope I don't sound sarcastic because we're all entitled to vote for whomever we want but I'd really like to know what the specific reasons are for thinking McCain is more qualified.  And like most people have said, we are not discrediting his service but being a POW does not automatically mean we can assume he has the capabilities to run this country.  

Both of the candidates are EQUALLY inexperienced in relation to this position because NEITHER of them have EVER held the position of President before. I understand we'll both still walk away voting for the candidate we want but I'd just like to know your reasons so that I can understand better.
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Avatar_f_tn
The question I asked was "My main point is that if he wasn't a POW - what could he add to the this country?  Just explain to me what exactly he could "positively impact" our country and the majority of the people in crisis over the economy and most possibly could lose their home/jobs/retirement?  ASIDE from him being tortured, beaten and etc., what can he add to this scenario.  I haven't heard that yet?  Enlighten me..... "

You told me again about his being a POW - I didn't say he wasn't.  Believe me, I don't necessarily think that Obama is best - I WANT to vote Republican - I always have - I just can't see voting for someone that NO ONE can tell me WHY he is better with him knocking on the grim reapers door (look at actuary tables - in all probability the man will not survive his term) and that leaves Ms. Harper Valley PTA to run the country and I am sorry - she might be intelligent, but if she is, she is hiding that extremely well.  I don't think that "Gosh Darn it" our enemies will be enamored by the cutsieness that she brings to the table, and I don't honestly know ANYONE named Joe SixPack, so I don't know who she is talking about.   She is making (with the help of media - mind you), women look like idiots.  

Hope doesn't pay might light bill, and $2500 in tax credits as a single Mom for my health care doesn't pay the actual amount it costs at $12,429.00 that the policy costs.....please, tell me

AGAIN - convince me - tell me WHY Senator McCain is MORE qualified than Obama and WHY I should vote for Palin for President - NOT VP, but the very real possibility that she could be President.  Please, tell me!  I am not being sarcastic and I am not trying to aggitate - seriously, I want to know this....tell me.  Educate me.   (the POW question is not in dispute - give me something else.)

Rach  
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Avatar_f_tn
There are no facts I can find that show McCain is more qualified to be president.  Try as I might, they are just not there to be found. If anyone out there can enlighten me as well on this issue please feel free to do so.

I just ran the numbers on McCain's health care proposal:

$5,000 tax credit  Then taxing the actual amount cost of the health benefit
$   450 average cost of a couples health care plan from employer with high deductables
$   750 employers cost of insurance

So lets run the numbers:  450 x 12 = $5,400  Still a $400 cost to you

750 x 12 = $9,000 that will be added to your total income and you will be taxed on it

Now in some cases a $9,000 increase in income can really add up to a heck of a lot more in taxes because it could pop a lot of people over into a much higher tax bracket.

There is no provision for those with pre-exhisting conditions and so they will still not even be able to have the health care they despirately need.  These were conservative estimates by the way......

Then, that child credit, what about those of us who's children are grown and no longer a dependent on our income taxes, what about those without children???????

Just a few thoughts.

Clarification of previous post (minus typos):
No, McCain will only follow the present administration's policies if the people in this country come down with a big case of Bradlyism which will be much to our demise.
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Avatar_m_tn
Personally I find both canidates disgusting and will probably end up voting green.

To say McCain served his country is well and good but there is some reason to believe his hot dogging it caused a fire on one ship that killed most of the crew and he has 100% diability when I know vets who only have one legs lambskin ear drums and the melt marks from bullet hole across their chest.

That having been said the bail out shows both of them as sellouts, and Obama has carefully kept away from making any stand when he was in Illinois, and he is a product of Chicago politics which are aguably the most corrupt in America.
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Avatar_m_tn
So cruel!! As if!  Working as close to government as I do (it pays a few of the bills) I would much rather work up to being a king maker than a puppet!  LOl I never knew you though so little of me!!  :^(

Things I hope have been well for you?

Re:  Obama the people I work with say he was practically a ghost when he was in Springpatch at the capitol.  And his views towards fathers is bizarre to say the least so I am voting for the only female, black, responsible Presidential Canidate..

Teko.. You will still respect me though?  lol
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Avatar_m_tn
ANybody know what tto different but similat triats Van Buren made acceptable to be in a president?  We have an example of each in our presidential race.
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And Lincoln
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Stirring the pot!! In a political year!  Would you believe for my actual job I get paid to calm and pacify people!

No, I just enjoy logical discussions!!
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203342_tn?1328740807
SeriousSam, I'm curious what you meant about his views about fathers was bizarre. Could you explain that please? Just wondering.

I, too, am still undecided. I really don't care for either candidate from what I've seen so far. I just don't know what I'm going to do yet.
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228686_tn?1211558307
Considering McCain has supported and pushed for the deregulation for many years that's led to the current financial crisis, I'd say he has exactly the kind of attitude that we DON'T need in a president.

McCain is just more of the same. He can throw the title "Maverick" around as much as he wants, but it's meaningless.

When asked (supporters) why they think he has what it takes to turn this country's economic crisis around, considering he supported this destabilizing deregulation, they almost invariably respond;

"Well...he's a Maverick! He walks to a different drummer!" or some such nonsense.

But this is MEANINGLESS. It's just spin. He isn't a maverick, he's just another supporter of big business at the expense of the American public.


I'm curious just what it is that makes Obama a far left liberal...? I keep hearing this but not seeing any proof of it. In fact, he's moved to a more conservative position on a number of issues (which is costing him votes amongst the more liberal voters).


Frankly all I really care about is the economy. The rest is just flak (unless it's related to the economy. Like the war, for example. huge waste of taxpayers money).

When looked at from a strictly economic perspective, Obama does seem to be promising a better economic plan (assuming he follows through). Sure, its weak...but so is McCains.
Obama's would increase the national debt by 3.5 trillion over the next five years while McCain would increase the debt by 5 trillion. McCain is going for a straight across the board 25% tax break for corporate taxation while Obama has come up with a corporate tax break package that would give similar cuts...but in such a way that would hopefully not weaken the economy (as straight across the board cuts tend to do).

Of course, all of this may be a moot point. If the House Ways and Means has its way, alot of the candidates economic tax policies are going to mean bupkus.

(Hey, just read Forbes. They're pretty fair  and impartial in giving this info out).


McCain's potential as president aside, my big problem with him is that he picked such a very stupid woman for a VP candidate. She's just....ugh. It makes me think fondly of Dan Quayle.


But I don't think that pick was done with any expectation of winning. It's something of a Mondale/Ferraro move. It will hopefully (for the republicans) build up political good will towards swing voters who lean towards democrats for the NEXT presidential election.
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I definitely think this next President will be a "1 term" President?  What do you think?  My guess is that whomever is elected won't have it fixed in the next 24-36 months and won't be "popular" enough to be re-elected?

Thoughts?
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You betcha!!

Wait, haven't we heard that line before somewhere?
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Probably - who knows!  I might have read it in the thread.  You have to love the flow of ideas!    The biggest issue I have is honestly - Palin for Pres....  yikes!
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I think we all need to remember that it is people like McCain that has fought  for our country, that is why we are able to give our opions freely without being lined up and shot.   Let''s see, Obama has served a whole 173+ days and you call that experience?  I pitty our country if he gets in, have any of you checked out his background? I mean really checked it?   I doubt it, everyone is just hooked on that "change" word, well remember, it might not be the right change for this country, I don't trust him one bit, and where did all that money come from? Overseas? Yes, and who from?  Think about it, the muslims want him in there, and I don't think he cares about Israel as much as he should, please people think about who you are voting for before you pull that Democratic lever....GOD BLESS AMERICA
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203342_tn?1328740807
I don't think Palin is stupid at all. I think she's a very smart woman, inexperienced yes, but not stupid.
Like I said earlier, I'm not crazy about either one of them. I think we're all in trouble no matter who gets in. It will be interesting.
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228686_tn?1211558307
Eh. I'm not sure exactly where McCain was when our government was tearing up the constitution and demolishing many of our freedoms over the past twenty years, but I get the impression he was right there with a pick axe and claw hammer tearing out the heart of the constitution.

But I'll be fair, I'm going to try to find the specific amendments and resolutions (etc...) and see how McCain and Obama voted on them (although Obama was still only a state senator when much of the damage was done, so I doubt he did much against or for the constitution one way or the other).

Okay, I did one brief check; McCain voted "Yes" for the original patriot act.

Therefore, in my opinion, he wiped out any claims he may have to having "Fought for   freedom" at any time with this one huge, monstrous crime against the constitution.

Obama voted for the patriot act's renewal, which I'm not happy about, but on close inspection I see that he was in a minority (of 29) that fought to strengthen and impose civil rights protection the patriot act clearly lacked.

They failed (of course) and therefore agreed to vote on a modified version of the patriot act that wasn't quite so criminal (in regard to violating the constitution and taking away freedoms from Americans).

The only one to vote no on 2001 on the patriot act was Russ Feingold. Perhaps we should vote HIM in as president.

And April, I would say that Palin is clever, or perhaps crafty is a better word. Perhaps stupid was too strong a word. I would say she's ignorant. Hopefully it's not by choice. If so...then...ugh...I can't even think what to say. But the information on Grizzlebay.com makes me seriously wonder about her state of mind.
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Savas:  She's ignorant - definitely ignorant....maybe a little stupid (Palin).  :)

When did it become an act of Communism to be a Democrat?  I thought that "pulling the lever" was a choice, "please people think about who you are voting for before you pull that Democratic lever....GOD BLESS AMERICA".   Does that mean if we vote Democrat we are not American?  Why then do we even have more than one party??  hmmmm....wouldn't that make us...... I am seeing good questions of qualifications and the political process, but it appears that if ANYONE that runs as a Republican would immediately become qualified in that arena...    ...remember George W is a Republican....   (not a good thing, it appears)     Did you know Democrat is a form of the word Democracy.......let's see where have I heard that word???

THE ECONOMY is my main concern in the election.  I left banking (thank Goodness) and work for a very small company now - and I am a single Mom.  I can't afford McCains health care plan, and can't afford to take home any less than I make now - not to mention that inflation is killing us all.  

As far as the Muslim issue - I am a Christian myself, but I also thought that in the United States of America, we were allowed by the CONSTITUTION to practice our choice of religions.   And where did his money come from?  It was said  "Overseas" - where - who?  An opinion was given, where is the information?  WHERE and WHO "gave" him the money?  ????

I guess if Santa Clause himself were a Republican he would be qualified???  Katie bar the door if he was a POW, he would be a shoe in!   A political PARTY doesn't make you qualified.    

Palin - good Lord, help us all.   I don't trust McCain/Palin or Palin/McCain as she has said - my choice.  ...my Democratic choice as an American.    

  
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Obama calls himself black and plays the race card..Lie from beginning..He is Bi-Racial. Why would anyone trust someone who lied right off the bat. Not to mention where the heck did he come from? Stepped outa his state as senator and said I'll try being the next pres...
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I guess if he is bi-racial, he is half-black, so I guess he's a glass half full kind of guy.  Who cares what he says he is - which - by the way, I don't recall him doing.   At least not, THAT ONE....   When exactly did he play the race card?  I am curious - I don't recall, seriously.  

He came from Illinois - as opposed to her being the Harper Valley PTA President in Tinyville, Alaska and governor for less than 2 years....  Whether she is the VP candidate or not - she can by her own words - be a heart beat away from becoming President.   Not to mention the drama surrounding her "long" term history as the governor of Alaska.  BUT, she CAN see Russia from her house.  
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First of all I said "God Bless America" because we need it, second of all if you remember the muslims HATE us,  being a  Christian myself I also know it says in the bible to beware of the evil within.. Also, Obama doesn't really care about Israel, and it states in the Bible that those that protect Israel will be protected.  Obama has only had 173+ days in office and you call that qualified?  His new tax proposals will tax the business owners even more which in turn will cause more people to shut down those businesses and then more middle class will lose their jobs, think about it! It's a ripple effect and nobody sees that, except most Republicans....And yes his race is a smoke screen, if you don't vote for him then you are automatically a racist and that just isn't fair..  and yes GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!
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God Bless America - indeed.  We definitely need it - no matter who is elected.  

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there will be trouble no matter which one wins.......
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Obama doesn't "really care about Israel"? How can you make such a statement?

As far as Obama's tax proposals, please check out fact check (org) because middle class America will get a better deal with Obama's tax breaks than McCain's.

Also, check out fact check (org) and find out how McCain lied about the relationship Obama had with Bill Ayers. Of course the Bill Ayers connection has been one of the centerpieces of the McCain campaign.
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Good Point - I have been amazed at the mis-information being spouted by the McCain camp - the whole campaign is negative, and full of mistakes.  No one is perfect, but ...

http://www.newsweek.com/id/163396
"He Lied" About Bill Ayers?

http://election.msn.com/WhereTheyStand.aspx



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I think you yourself need to check the facts, numerous reports have said how Obama doesn't really care to much about Israel.
And no the middle class will not be better off because of the fact that those who own small businesses employ most of the middle class, and when they are taxed more it will cause those small businesses to let "the middle " class go, in turn they don't have a job, and don't you remember the quote he made to Joe the plumber?  He wants to take Joe's money from him (small business ower) and spread the wealth...

And yes Obama has had a relationship with Bill Ayers, you need to check the facts, so don't tell me I am unsure....
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This is AWESOME!

You can choose a topic and candidate and compare their issues.

http://election.msn.com/podium08.aspx

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I agree. I've had so many e-mails from Republican friends that claim that Obama is a Muslim and other false statements. Of course although the facts are out, these people are still spreading these lies. I think that it is fueled by fears.

Of course you are probably already aware that this is about religion. I don't think they will admit it, but their fears are fueling their votes for McCain. These same people voted for George W. Bush and we've seen the failed results the last 8 years.
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Obama wasn't going to fine Joe, as McCain falsely accused him of. McCain would tax Joe's healthcare benefits and also since Joe doesn't currently make over $250,000 a year, Joe would benefit from Obama's plan.

I don't have a problem with these oil companies, who have ripped us off and made billions of dollars, paying more taxes. They need to give back to the people that they ripped off and have depended on for their success. They need to contribute to their community, just like taxpayers have been doing. Remember that the taxpayers are the ones who are currently paying billions to bail out the crooks at these mortgage companies and investment banks.
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No kidding,  I  know Joe doesn't make over 250,000 right now, he wants to buy the business but is afraid because of  Obama's plan, isn't it funny how facts get all  turned around?   So "NO" Joe would not benifit if he owned the business, think about it.
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That's right. Obama made that very clear in his debate last night. What is also very clear is that the middle class (the people who are struggling right now and just bailed out billion dollars companies) would pay less taxes under Obama's plan and more taxes under McCain's.

So when Joe starts his business, yes he would pay more taxes under Obama's plan. But at least he would have the money to do so and the middle class would finally get a break.

What concerns me about Republicans is that they don't want to pay taxes, period. I know Republicans who live in Vancover, Washington and they live there so they pay less state taxes. They will then travel to Portland to do their shopping because the sales taxes are cheaper!

Who should pay taxes for the war in Iraq, education, infrastructure and our trillion dollar debt that we now have?  Thanks to the Bush administration, we are now in serious debt.
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Well, you believe what you all want, but President Clinton started a lot of the problems himself, and you also should be thankful to President Bush who has protected us from another terrorist attack for 7 years, don't blame Bush for everything, and as far as Republicans not wanting to pay taxes, that is just dumb, I am proud to live in this country and I know that paying taxes is just a part of it.  And if it weren't for  "war"  we wouldn't have the freedom we do right now, we would be speaking another language. I have many family members in the military , they are proud of what they do, and I am proud of them.. I just hope and pray that some understand how dangerous it would be to have Obama in office, just watch and see what happens.
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YES - that's exactly right - he WOULDN'T pay it now, and as he begins to PROSPER he would pay more taxes....  that sounds fair to me!  Joe should be more prosperous and would pay more taxes as a higher income person - you can't stay in the same tax bracket because you used to have a plumber's wage, and now you are a self employed business owner.  It makes PERFECT sense!  

You are right on point - I love it.  It amazes me that ANYONE that runs as a Republican is automatically qualified and is a conservative. - and they say they are for the "Joe Six Pack"  - Look at this:

An ad released Thursday, October 9, by Sen. Barack Obama's campaign, titled "Tested," takes aim at Sen. John McCain's mortgage plan. "McCain would shift the burden from lenders to taxpayers, guaranteeing a loss of taxpayer money," the ad's narrator says. "Who wins? The same lenders that caused the crisis in the first place."

The Verdict:
True. The McCain campaign acknowledges the plan would shift the burden to taxpayers.
                                            www.CNNpolitics.com

Lie Lie Lie - that and accusations - unproven accusations - that's all I see from McCain.  An act of desparation - I believe.    

McCain kept calling the guy "Joe the Plumber" last night, like he didn't warrant knowing his last name - while Obama called him Joe.  Behavior - common decency and behavior - McCain keeps on acting like a desperate man with his rash behavior and shows a lack of respect for the people he is trying to win over.  

Jade, you are right on -
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OH MY GOODNESS!  Clinton?  We had a SURPLUS of money when he left office!  Look back at Reagan!  The original "trickle down theory" came from Reagan - Clinton corrected the deficit and we had a surplus!

George W Bush will go down in history as one of the worst Presidents in history - and he earned that title himself.  

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Why exactly would it be "dangerous" to have Obama in office?  Specifically?  

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Well now yahoo! news is reporting that Joe the plumber doesn't even have a business license. He says he doesn't need one, but the county he lives in, requires him to have one.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber

At least Joe the plumber wouldn't have to pay taxes with Obama's plan. If he did make over $250,000 a year, then he still be taxed on health care insurance. Of course this is if John McCain were to win the election.

Regardless, I don't know what is going to happen to Joe the plumber, now that the entire country knows he isn't a license plumber!
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Whatever.................There is obviously no help for some peolpe, so if Osama/Obama gets into office we are doomed, just wait and watch and I pray I am wrong.. Good luck people!   At least it won't be my fault because I'm not voting for him...
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what's wrong with obama, if mccain gets office we're gonna be in the same boat we're in now, he's another bush made over, like this economy really needs that.....
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sorry i just really want to now why obama in office is a danger and mccain is not. lol bush has messed up this economy and in my opininon the worst president we've ever had and yes i'm young but study ... alot ... and clinton did alot of good and yea may not have been the best but it would be hard for me to ever look at a republican the same again. i'm not writing this to make ne one mad, just stating my opinion w/ a simple question?
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I'm done,,,I guess those that vote for Osama/Obama will just have to wait and see what he does.....and McCain is not another George Bush, you have seen to many commercials, and that's called being brainwashed..glad you study a lot, just maybe I know how to read as well... I just pray we have God on our side in this election.
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honestly neither president is the  best but no i don't watch too many commercials i've watche the debates, the vp debates and kept up with it since the beginning when hilary was still running, i don't see how ne one can say mccain is not a nother bush he is in my opinion and many others. and yes either way we're gonna need GOD on our side in this election but we're really gonna need him if mccain takes office.
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whatever
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i'm not directing it straight toward you just my opinion.
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Jade, NewLeaf, and Cowgirl--thought-provoking arguments.  2wonderfulboys--not so much.

It's easy to spew the talking points of your favorite radio host without doing any research, but it's much more effective to actually do the research and seek the truth from more neutral sources.  You can listen to Hannity and Limbaugh or even Randi Rhodes and Thom Hartmann (I suspect you've probably never even heard of the latter two talk show hosts, 2wonderfulboys)--I listen to all of them and then I do my own research.  

And making references about who will likely be our president that offend and incite isn't the way to go--it's rather "Gayle Quinnell-esque" (to be polite).  It takes much more thought and effort to actually back what you say with facts or references.

I've gone back and forth in another LONG thread--from Palin to taxes to healthcare to Welfare to the Keating Five Scandal:
http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/624734

So, I'll just say, "Go, Obama!" and leave it at that here in this thread.
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Like Angiesmom, I have watched the debates, I have looked at the topic and did comparison on my own.  I have watched Hannity; Limbaugh, Rhodes, CNN-Cooper, etc.  Watched both Foxnews (which is typically liberal); CNN; MSNBC; etc.    My opinions have been formed by listening; reading; researching.  

The one thing that I have asked continually during this campaign is: a REASON why Obama is dangerous, etc.  Over and over, I have received no answer.  I am a person who likes it spelled out - call me ignorant, but I like 1), 2), 3)  - type specific answers.  Nothing vague that can not be researched.  If he is dangerous - by all means, if you care - tell me why he is so dangerous.  Let me know so I can research it.  

Vance and I took the topics offline and discussed them through message - I respect his opinions - don't agree, but I repsect them.

Bottom line for me is - McCain is a "Maverick" yes - we don't need that.  Palin is just rediculous.  His plans are not thought out and has no real plan as to how to accomplish good for the American people.  Obama has different views and yes, that's scary at times when we are at the worst time in most of our lives - however, more of the same will not create change.  Definition of Insanity:  Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.  I feel more confident that if something, God forbid, did happen to Obama that Joe Biden would be able to pick up and do the job.  

Opinions aren't individual attacks - we should have good, intelligent conversations regarding the truth and the actual facts of the election that will impact not only our immediate future, but the future of our children and grandchildren.  In reality at 40, retirement will not be easy for most my age, due to decision made ourselves and on behalf of ourselves by corporation and yes, the government.  We have to ensure that our children have a better shot at a better life.  

Definition of Insanity:      Doing the same thing and expecting a different result.
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I don't know if you made an honest mistake by calling Barrack Obama - Osama/Obama - but his accurate name is Barrack Obama - Osama is a terrorist named Osama Bin Laden (who was the correct terrorist of 9/11) - they aren't related in any way.    

Just thought you should know!  

Thanks!
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That was no mistake.  She did it twice--and no one's name has a slash in it.  She calls HIM dangerous when she writes things like that.  Interesting.

Fear and ignorance is a bad combination.
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So true.   So True.  

It's amazing to me that I have lived in the South my entire life, and we, at times, get a bad rap about racism- but most of the people I talk with here - are in favor of him as a MAN.  It appears to me that the fear may be based on something that people don't like to say outloud - race.  Sad.  

Personally, I am proud that in my lifetime, we have evolved to a time where intelligence trumps race.   It's a good to day to be an American.    

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For your information........angiesmom, cowgirlNERD......I too have done research, and yes I have heard of the people up above,,,and yes I called him Osama on purpose, not much difference between the two of them....and his race has nothing to do with it...He is only doing this for his career not our country....but go ahead and vote for him, and I don't appreciate being called ignorant,,I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you are...It is still a free country until he takes over...so glad the two of you are so much more educated than I am....or so you think
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In his 2002 autobiography "Worth the Fighting For" McCain said with respect to his 2000 presidential campaign:

    "I didn't decide to run for president to start a national crusade for the political reforms I believed in or to run a campaign as if it were some grand act of patriotism. In truth, I wanted to become president because it had become my ambition to be president. I was 62 years old when I made the decision, and I thought it was my one shot at the prize...

    "In truth, I'd had the ambition for a long time... it had been there, in the back of my mind, for years, as if it were simply a symptom of my natural restlessness." [1]

If that's what drove him when he was 62 what do you think drives him now at 72? Ambition to be President!
Mike
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I am not trying to be combative with you - Angiesmom and I have the same right as you - to express our opinions and ask questions as you have asked; and we have asked and not received answers.

Simply, I ask you the following - for my benefit, because I am, yes, ignorant, of the facts you are claiming to have knowledge that I don't (definition of ignorance):

1)  How are Osama Bin Laden and Barak Obama similar?;
2)  Why are we to fear Obama if he is elected?;
3)  Why is McCain more qualified to be President (other than the POW and that he is  Republican)?
4)  What would happen to us if he were elected - how would he take away our freedom?
5)  Why exactly do you consider that Barak Obama is not an American with the right to run for pubic office?

Myself, I would characterize "brainwashing" as having no real opinion of your own - not able to analyze an event or topic to develop your own opinion.  Unable to answer a question that would involve an opinion of your own.  Obviously, Angiesmom and I have not been brainwashed.  We have answered questions and offered questions that have yet to be answered.

I haven't intended to insult anyone - healthy discussions are important in a quest for knowledge.   Just like you, we are entitled to opinions - like you said - and yet WE aren't angry at your comments.  We are attempting to encourage a discussion and have questions actually answered.  It's not an attempt to upset - just a quest for answers.

PS. if you are capitalizing NERD in my screen name - I don't take offense, if that were the intention.  I enjoy being a nerd.  

Will you answer the questions to help my ignorance of those statements you made?  
  
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some good points and that's what i wanna know as well is WHY IS SO DANGEROUS, i just wanna know WHY bc i disagree and i just wanna know what makes him dangerous in everyone one else's eyes??
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While I too respect McCains service time, it seems to me like he has been through the wringer. I feel like his health should be a big issue because should he pass away while in office, I KNOW that I do not want someone like Palin running this country.
  You betcha, Mr Joe Six-Pack!
The thought scares the H*** out of me.
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Here's a little information for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU4Nwok1Z5Q

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Honestly the only way to cut through all the spin and get to the heart of the matter is to google for specifics on senatorial voting records and the like.

As a policy, I don't beleive anything any candidate says in an election. I look at their past record on what they've done.

Now, to be safe, you have to go to reliable sources. Forbes, for example, is an excellent source for cross relating how bills passed by the senate have affected the economy directly.

Another good trick is to google for articles from newspapers from OTHER countries. There's one or two english papers I check in with occasionally, as well as Irish publications that you can't get easily in this country. Swiss, french...you can get an interesting perspective this way.

Heck, you can get straight, factual information on the Reuters wire that other papers will dress up, cover in spin and toss out in a biased way.

The problem here is there's TOO many information sources available.  You Tube itself can be like a huge, ponderous unstoppable force when it comes to providing insane and strange commentary on everyday politics and life. Throw in biased news coverage from T.V. stations and newspapers... how can anyone really be expected to easily get to the truth?

I don't know if anyone knows or remembers, but before electricity elections were won largely by word-of-mouth-propaganda-rumour-mills.

It took time but you could get a good rumour going and after a few weeks it would sweep across a voting block and become an unstoppable force.  With info sources like youtube and live wire, this effect can happen in a matter of DAYS.

In the words of an old favorite show;

"The Truth is Out There."

You just gotta hunt for it. ;)
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I am voting for Joe the Plumber...
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Obama is also a chain smoker, he could also drop dead at anytime, and then Mr. Joe "the liberal"Biden would be president..  Obama also wants to take away our right to have guns, he is more into socialism, remember the comment "I just want to share the wealth"?  I just don't trust him, his background of being schooled in a muslim school, his mother was an atheist, yes I know his grandmother helped raise him, also have we forgotten about the Rev. Right?  He went to that church for 20 years!  You can't tell me he isn't a little racist himself... Remember the comment he made when he first started out?  He called whites "you people", and the famous comment about midwesterners who "cling to their guns and religion"?  I just don't trust him...why are these things forgotten? It's because he is just a smart talker that likes to hear himself talk and people are drawn to him...........he also compared himself to Jesus by saying that Jesus was a community organizer...WRONG...he was a carpenter, a teacher and a healer...that is very scary to me, no one should ever compare himself to Jesus...Obama is not the messiah....but I think with his ego he seems to think he is...scary!
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I have a friend who believes Obama is the anti-christ. No kidding.
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He was educated in a Catholic school first, for the same length of time:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

Here's a link about the false claims made about him by the NRA.  He's a constitutional lawyer--he doesn't want to take your guns (that's propaganda):
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html

Here's some more info, if you're interested:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_obama.html

Oh, and regarding his connection to Wright, the pastor of my Catholic Church was brought up on 13 counts of child molestation (he died before his trial, but I believe there was restitution paid by The Church).  I sat and listened to him preach every week, and while I thought he was occasionally a ranting old man, I thought he had good in his heart--so does that say something about MY character?  Oh, and my son's music teacher was a child molester, but I didn't know it at the time (and thank God nothing happened to my son during the two group lessons he had with the guy)--the guy actually served time in another state for molesting several very young children and he is currently on the run after my friend's son told her that the guy was molesting him and she went to the police.  So should I be judged based on what he did since I know him?

Regarding Bill Ayers (which I assume is what you likely attribute your thinly veiled insinuation when you refer to Obama the way you do):
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html

The community organizer quote has been attributed to Representative Cohen, Susan Sarandon, and Diane Rehm, but not Obama, to my knowledge (I just did a quick search to see if I could find anything but I could not--can you?).

Can you, 2wonderfulboys, link me to some legitimate news sources or non-partisan, neutral, non-profit organizations supporting your claims about Barack Obama?  I would love to read them!

p.s.  April, here's a link for your friend:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/antichrist.asp
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I agree with your friend, and so do many other people....thanks for that!
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I guess I'll have to go back and look at Revelation and other end time prophesies in the Bible to see how and why they link Obama with the anti-christ. It should be interesting!

One thing I didn't like about Obama him comparing himself to Christ. He does seem rather arrogant.
In a lot of ways the things he says sounds good and he does seem to be a better speaker than McCain but I do worry about him. I'm just not too sure about him. I don't particularly care about McCain either, though, so I have no idea what I'm going to do come election time!
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"I have a friend who believes Obama is the anti-christ. No kidding."
Well, that certainly is a persuasive argument. I mean who could ever argue with your friend and particularly when 2wonder agrees?
This is the stuff of McCain supporters.
I have a friend who believes that world is flat and that babies come from the birds and the bees and guess what? He too is supporting McCain.
Mike
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I was just stating something, mikesimon, no need to get insulting.

And teko, I really don't think race has anything to do with anything. I wish Colin Powell would have run for president a long time ago. He is very respected among many people.
I think what worries people about Obama is the type of company he has kept. I'd be worried about that whether the man was black, white or whatever. I don't care. What I care about is how sincere the person is, how experienced they are and if they're background is unblemished. That's what I care about.
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Now you are playing the race card like Obama does, it seems  as if we don't like him /trust him then we are a racist....that is very unfair...April and I are entitled to our opinion just like everyone else in this world...
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First of all you can't compare a child molester to Rev.Wright....it is in the news a lot about priests that molest little kids,you don't see every day where a Rev. is ranting about whites, and how horrible the U.S.A is....so very poor comparison....and because you are so educated in all this ..have you looked up the word "brainwashed"...
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Obama had once stated on his website (as a lower level politico) and I believe tried for legislation based on the premise that since fathers who see their kids more spend more money on them that if we increase the amount of child support fathers pay that they would see their kids more.

When I e-mailed his office they did not directly respond to the question other than to say he had also sponsored a tax credit for fathers who were current on child support.

@ this point I will probably just vote for Mckinney
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Thank you for helping me to prove my point, 2wonderfulboys.

I keep thinking about Gayle Quinnell when I read some of these things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOU9xZ4zcss

What mikesimon and teko said.

Oh, and April--I commented on the "company he keeps" concern.  He's not "palling around" or "friends" with Ayers--he knows him and served on a board with him, but doesn't have a close relationship with him.  And, like I said, I've encountered two child molesters--one I admired and listened to weekly at Church.  Would you really judge my character based on the fact that I know them?

And check out the link I posted about the anti-Christ--it discusses the book of Revelation and the whole ridiculous claim.  (And no, it's not a partisan website.)
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You still don't get it...Rev Wright teaches about hate, and does not like white people, you can't compare him to a child molester...you can't tell me that Obama didn't sit there during church and take all that in,,,your priest however was not teaching about molesting children ... see the difference?  Your priest was doing that behind everyones back... big difference...it also confuses me that a catholic would vote for someone that believes in abortion...isn't that a double standard?  I wonder what your "new" priest would think about that...and wasn't it a catholic priest that said the democrats are the "democrats of death?  you probably have forgotten all about that one.....interesting
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Uh He has said he is black ....many times..I am "proud" to be of the black culture. Need to watch the news closer. He plays the race card....he says "They will tell you i don't look like the guys on the dollar bills"..the says oh b the way did i tell you he's black. Yeap playing the race card..and why wouldn't Obama do that.....Brings the black community right to his voting booth. I am not a racial person but do not like someone who comes outa the sky and claims he is Black and act like he is the best salvation to this country... "Today is the day the oceans will cease to rise".....Yeap he said that 2 ..LMAO.
This country will be so libral. that we will not know what USA was founded on and for.
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Oh yes Obama came from Illinios.... ah there's the quality for a president. Palin and McCain have more experience than Obama and Biden put together. That could give one a clue as to who is best to run the country. Course we could fly my neighbor in for a last ditch as a candidate.
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Heh heh... McCain is in his seventies and is a career politician. You could get my 11 year old nephew to be his VP running mate and the two of them would have more time on earth as politicians than Obama and Biden have.

Please, don't try fallacy. That statement is worded to suggest that Palin has experience she doesn't have. more experience than Obama and Biden have, and it just isn't true.

Just out of curiosity, someone commented that "His mother is an atheist" as if this is a bad thing.

What exactly is wrong with being an atheist? Considering that atheists tend to be better educated, have lower divorce rates, and commit fewer crimes than those from other belief systems, I'm not sure why this is supposed to be a bad thing in a person.
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Bloody, this is actually Savas. My wife logged in while I was going to the store. THIS is why every family should have two computers!!! :-)
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I’m pro choice—no one is pro-abortion.  To think so is simply ignorant.

Most Catholics I know hate abortion, would never do it (or would hope they would never find themselves faced with considering it), would counsel women not to do it, but are not for making it illegal.  And they're democrats.  Despite the Church getting involved in trying to influence people over it.

I use the brain that God gave me to make decisions—I don’t vote a particular way because a religion or an organization or some idiot on the radio tells me to vote that way.

People have been brainwashed into thinking the Republican Party has their backs.  But it’s about votes.  The Republican Party decided that they need to get more votes—they needed the poor minorities in order to get into control—those who may be immigrants (like all our descendants were), those who need financial help, those who don’t have healthcare.  They needed the votes of the hard working struggling people of this country—the ones the Democrats help—the ones who would never vote Republican.  So they found the common denominators and targeted those.  They ran the numbers and discovered that most people who are minorities and poor are also evangelical Christians.  And the sleepy, small-town, hard-working union people are also often Christians—and hunters.  So they decided that they needed to get the Christians.  How do you do that?  You take possession of an issue that stirs passion—abortion.

And how do you get the gun owners?  You get the NRA to invoke fear.  The Republican Party takes a lot of money from the NRA in exchange for voting down any proposed gun legislation.  So now you have the NRA wanting Republicans in control—so they spread the propaganda to try to make that happen (I sent a link about that last time around, but I doubt that you read it).

I know many people, my father included, who used to be Democrats and they now vote Republican for one of those two reasons—abortion and guns.  My father lives out in the middle of nowhere—in a really small town in the country (because that’s the only place he can afford to live).  He lives in a small trailer and can hardly make ends meet.  He’s 72 years old and has had a triple bypass and surgery for a brain aneurism (aneurysm), but he can’t afford his medications, so he often goes without them.  His health insurance stinks, so he doesn’t go for check-ups or regular testing like he should.  He can’t afford the gas to go to the doctor either (an hour away), so he usually doesn’t.  He tests for his diabetes one time per month because the test strips are too expensive and not covered by his insurance.  And when I ask him why he’s not voting Democrat (which would be to his advantage and make total sense), his reply is, “I don’t want the government taking my guns!”  That is just so incredibly sad and sickening to me.  He believes the lies and propaganda the NRA spread.  I think THAT is evil  If you’re looking for the anti-Christ, you should look more closely at the Republican Party to find it.

Regarding religious leaders—they are human.  Like you and me.  I have had pastors say some things with which I do NOT agree and some things that sickened me and made me cry, sitting there in the pew.  One priest recently spent the entire homily honoring and singing the praises of the pastor who molested all those children.  He didn’t believe it, obviously.  But I didn’t get up and leave—I view him as an old man who has good in his heart, even though he had really messed up thoughts.  Maybe I should have left--but does the fact that I didn’t make me a bad person?
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That last reply from me was to you, in case you didn't realize.
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Um......how can you say that being an atheist is ok?  This country was founded on Christianity...do you know that? I personally want God on our side, don't you?  That's the problem with this country, it seems if you talk about it then you are a nut, well people had better wake up, if we start kicking God out of this country we will be in big trouble.. so yes his mother being an atheist does bother me,,, a lot


And thank you snoozie for being one of the few people on here that  make any sense!!.

And to Angiesmom, I don't understand how you think at all, seems like you believe in double standards to me, but whatever gets you through life then so be it. And guess what I use the brain God gave me too, but at times you should also use your heart, in which that's why God gave us a conscience...so vote for who you want and I pray that I am wrong about him, I would hate to see us living like a 3rd world country some day..
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DUH....I am done replying back to you, not really fun anymore, tired of typing and you not getting it.. so good luck with the next 4 years after Nov 4th.
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So, atheists are better educated than Christians? How arrogant and narrow minded. This is the second time on this thread I felt insulted by just being a Christian. I suppose you're going to say that we think the world is flat and babies came from the birds and the bees just like mikesimon? He seems to think religious people, or Republicans are pretty stupid.
And I have to agree with 2wonderfulboys, his pastor scares me. I know, I know, he has distanced himself from his pastor now that he felt he could hurt his campaign. But this is the pastor he went to for 20 years. He was married by him, his kids baptized by him. I've watched the man preach. Don't tell me that Obama sat there week after week and didn't agree with what this man was saying? Then why would he stay? I know I certainly wouldn't go to a church where I disagreed with the pastor and his beliefs. This pastor is no real man of God. God is a god of love, not hate. This man spouts hate. Hate for whites, hate for America. It's downright scary. Don't tell me Obama was never affected by all this man preached.
I'm not saying Obama is evil, nor am I saying McCain is "all that". Personally, I don't really care for either one but we don't have a lot of chooses to choose from, do we? It will be interesting whoever makes it, that's for sure.
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Do we not think this post has gone on long enough? Honestly we are all entitled to our own beliefs and convictions. The beautiful thing about this country is the freedom to choose who we want as our leader.

Everyone needs to go vote. Early voting is now open. I went today with my husband and we voted. At least then this senseless bickering can end. My husband read over this post and shook his head sadly that politics is even being discussed amongst us on a computer forum. As I said before he served two tours of duty overseas in active war zones. He said if eveyone on this thread would stop bickering and go out and vote. Then come back on here and pick something other than politics, religion, abortion etc. to discuss. We need to count our blessing and be proud to be American. Hug our family members close and cherish all the beauty around us rather than all the hate.

I am actually ashamed of some of the comments on this thread.

If we stop voting will all the politicians go away?    Bumper sticker we saw today and liked...
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Early voting is a state by state thing.  Many (possibly about a third) of states don't even have it.  But, I will try to refrain from responding.  It usually is pointless and just ***** up too much of my time anyway.
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Oops!  Forgot and used a banned word--I'll replace it with "takes".
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Hey, don't get angry at me, I'm just quoting the latest statistical studies that were done. Ironically, they were done by the Discovery Institute, which is a Christian/Creationist Organization.

They wanted to prove that religion=good morals, (more so than education) via low divorce rates, low crime rates, etc... and were dismayed when the studies showed the opposite was true.

I suppose I should have said that a little better, though. The proper wording is; "Their is a higher ratio of those with a college education among those who are and become atheists.

Conversely, statistics show that those with college educations have a much lower chance of divorcing. The statistic goes up per every five years of marriage between college educated married couples."

Which I don't think is necessarily a comment on atheists having a lower divorce rate. It only shows that a better education tends to lead towards the tools needed to face the hardships of life and marriage. Being an atheist seems to just be a side result of having a college education.
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And NO this country was NOT founded on Christianity. This is one of the most common misconceptions perpetrated out there.

This country was founded by a vast, differing group of people from all walks of lives. Christians, Jews, Hindus, muslims, catholics, atheists, agnostics, Theists, pagans, etc... ALL walks of life. You may as well say this country was founded exclusively by the English. By that logic we should still be singing "God Save the Queen".

This country was founded on the principles of religious freedom, and the freedom to choose how you worship. This is reflected by our constitution and the first four presidents, ESPECIALLY Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the Virginia Bill/Statute of religious freedom in 1786, a Bill that was universally passed and states that this is NOT a christian nation, it is a nation that is to be represented by ALL people, of all religions.


BTW, Savas, while raised in both the Catholic and Judaic Traditions, is now an agnostic (with Theist tendencies. Sometimes). Which means he gets universally ridiculed by both atheists and theists/christians alike. Trust a Savas to be squarely in the middle of the battlefield without a Flak Jacket. :->
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this country was too founded on Christianity,, where have you been?  The problem is now we have to be politically correct about everything and people have easily forgotten what America stands for.  That's the problem, politically correctness is what is ruining this beautiful place we live in, and I will stand up for my rights and what I believe in until the day I die.
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Savas, well, I don't know where they got their statistics but I disagree with it. You see, I've heard different statistics. I guess it all depends on who's doing the polls, doesn't it? I will contend that divorce is just as bad on both sides. The sad truth is many people who claim to be Christians are being Christians in name only and not taking the scriptures seriously in their lives. Nor are they truly trying to follow Christ's example.

And yes, this country was founded on Christianity. Read "The Light and the Glory" by Peter Marshall and David Manuel. There are actual journal entries and letters in this book from the pilgrims and puritans. This will show you how they thought and what they believed. This country has strayed terribly from it's true roots. We are being fed lies now that are being taught to our children in schools now. No wonder our children are so confused and angry. They have no heroes to look up to anymore, when they teach them things like that Christopher Columbus was terrible, etc., etc.

But I stray from the original topic. I'm sorry. Read the book, though, and let me know what you think. I think it's quite good. Yes, this illiterate Christian does like to read a lot! And so does my college educated retired Air Force Col. father who happens to also be a Christian, married to my mom (who is also a Christian) for 30 plus years. I guess we're not all uneducated, stupid, gullible people who bounce from one marriage to another.  
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Here's something that may interest you:
Colin Powell Endorses Barack Obama for President
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081019/ap_on_el_pr/powell
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btw, Savas, many, many brilliant scientists, biologists, etc. are Christians and believe in a creator God? How do you explain that if all us Christians are stupid and uneducated? And I'll gladly provide names if you like.
I'm sorry but I do think it's highly offensive to suggest Christians are uneducated and stupid. I can't even believe that was mentioned here.

And just as a side note to that book I mentioned, the pilgrims and the puritans were not the same. Many people confused the pilgrims with the puritans and have even portrayed them inaccurately in our history books by showing them wearing the black clothes and such. The pilgrims were actually happy go lucky people who liked to wear bright clothes and dance. It was the puritans who were more rigid and wore the somber clothing and such, just in case someone's interested.
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I've been reading this forum with interest, granted it has been laughable at times. I am a democrat and I will be voting for Obama. I have always been pro-choice, and this is why. Not only do I not want people to make decisions about my body, or the bodies of my children and grandchildren, I don't feel that anyone has the right legally or morally to tell anyone else what to do.
   Tell me honestly what you would do if you had a 11, 12, 13 year old daughter that had been brutally raped. Would you then force this child to go through the trauma of childbirth, then through the pain of giving the child up for adoption, or would you help to get the unwanted, brutal pregnancy aborted so this young girl could have a chance of growing into a young woman, getting an education and then deciding if she wanted to have a family?
    I'm not talking about going out and getting pregnant and having it aborted just to do the same thing over and over again, I'm talking about a victim of  brutal rape. That's why I am pro-choice.
    IMO I feel that Obama will be one of the best Presidents to ever sit in the White House. No I am not black, I'm not middle class, I'll be one to have to pay higher taxes, but that is neither here nor there. Obama has what it take to get this country turned back around after 8 years of going to hell in a handbasket. None of us can afford an other 4 years of that.
    For anyone to keep harping on the Ayers associaton or about the pastor of Obama's former church is ridiulous. As a Christian, yes a Christian, I believe that anyone can be forgiven. None of us have the right to pass judgement on anyone else, only God has that right. I don't want to stand before Christ and try to explain why I was trying to take over his job, personally I think God is doing a pretty good job, why mess up something that isn't broken?

Kidd
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Let me be clear;

I never suggested that Christians are stupid and uneducated. I pointed out a difference in college degrees between one group and the other, with the result of a college education/degree leading to a lower incidence in the divorce rate.

As to statistics...well...there are statistics and there are statistics. These particular statistics by the discovery institute (a creationist group)  are backed up by other groups doing similar studies. I can think of many reasons why they make sense, including the fact that a college degree can lead to a higher salaried job, which aids in relieving stress on marriages.  I've seen a lot of statistics and info out there lately that's either straight out lying or just done poorly. I don't assume a statistic is true until I know where it comes from, and how it was done.

Would someone please first define to me what they mean by "Founded by Christians."?

I think you're confusing the difference between a religious group (Puritans) first coming to this land and a diverse group of people who made up the 13 colonies declaring themselves a nation and setting down a constitution.

Remember, the LAND does not make the country, it is the people. Our forefathers understood this when they wrote the constitution. After all, if this was a christian nation founded only by christians, then why would they have bothered to write a constitution protecting the right to practice religion, any religion? Why would they have written bills and made laws declaring that no one can be discriminated against when it comes to becoming a representative of this government based on religion? That no religious group shall have preeminence over another?

And lets say that this nation was founded by christians?

So what? By that logic, this nation should not only be worshipping the pagan Gods of the American Indians, but their religious beliefs and laws (The Native Americans) should be the true law of the land.
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Savas, I'm not angry with you, nor do I want to fight with you. I was just a little taken aback by what I felt like was an attack on my faith. I do take my faith seriously so any attack on my faith feels like a personal attack. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you in any way. I don't want hurt feelings or fighting, etc. I just wanted everyone to respect everyone regardless of their beliefs.

And kiddthekatt, let's pleeeeese not drag abortion into this thread. That's just one hot topic that will really get people off and fighting and then we'll get the thread pulled. We've already strayed too far from the original topic.
Everyone, let's please try to remain respectful to each other, regardless of whether you agree with them or not.

With that said, with all the attacks McCain's been leveling at Obama, I've become more and more turned off. I don't like to see either candidate attack the other. I just wish they'd talk to the people and tell us what they are going to do for us without resorting to personal and/or untruthful attacks against the other. I'm so fed up with the whole thing.
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Yoooou ooooonly hurt! The oooones yooooou looooove!!! :->

heh heh...sorry luv, that first post i wrote after a 12 hour marathon at work. Exhaustion makes for a sloppy choice of words. I realized the next day what I'd said could be easily taken the wrong way.

The side bar with atheists (regarding the study) was one of many that showed that they aren't any more or less moral than any other religious group out there. Frankly, you'd never guess who has the lowest divorce rate in the world.

Give up?

It's the Japanese, coming in at about a 6% divorce rate, as compared to us Americans with our 50% divorce rate. The Japanese are a fairly irreligious lot and are fairly atheistic in their views, but they don't divorce. Hmmm....

The other stuff however...well, I'm a strict Jeffersonian which makes me a fairly adamant arguer when it comes to political philosophy and what this country is and isn't supposed to be.

Christianity has had a strong influence on how this country has formed. For interesting reading, look for some of the original newspaper articles from the 1800's as well as bills and laws that were passed that deal with the outlawing of Mormon Polygamy.

Everyone assumes that it was a moral/religious issue but there was a real worry about the setting up of a mormon state that would succeed from the Union AND grow at an exponential rate due to the mormon practice of polygamy. Outlawing polygamy was, in part, an attempt to keep the mormons from having a population explosion that would threaten the Union.

BUT, this is just me rambling on one of my favorite subjects, old, long past history. Something I do when I'm tired after a long, 11 hour day at work. :-)
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Bloody, did it again. Sorry to my wife for snagging her p-file by accident. This is going to take some getting used to (sharing a med-help with her!)
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I personally think it is pretty basic and simple....

Choose a candidate with experience or with 14 months as a senator. Those that choose someone with NO experience baffles me. Obama can Say anything..and he is doing axactly that. Bunch of rhetoric...I could bring up Stan the fisheran for president...and if he had his backers throwing money to him for his getting elected and someone tying up his speeches, but gosh he would win! If Obama wins get ready for a socialist USA. You will reap your rewards for first few moths..then get ready to be at the mercy of his coherts. The man scared me from the time i first saw him...where the heck did he come from besides Illinois? Both candidates will pose problems. But fer cripe sake..Don't vote for someone with no experience because we need change. LOL i every election we need change.
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Oh and as far as Powell voting for Obama....means didly..he is one person out of how many people in this country? When asked by a reporter why he voted for Obama....he walked away and said he had calls to make. Oyyyy... "there's" yer sign" He is voting for him probably for 2 reasons...Obama is Bi-Racial. Which yea it pizzes me off Obama doesn't say that..he says he is of the black community. Hmmm i think Powell is Bi-Racial as well what's that tell ya. The money Obama gets? gee ya think Acorn and the radical people who want "change" could be contributing? K

KEEP your EYES and your votes based on the simple facts. "experience"
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As far as Clinton leaving Bush a surplus?...Facts:

Verifying this is as simple as accessing the U.S. Treasury (see note about this link below) website where the national debt is updated daily and a history of the debt since January 1993 can be obtained. Considering the government's fiscal year ends on the last day of September each year, and considering Clinton's budget proposal in 1993 took effect in October 1993 and concluded September 1994 (FY1994), here's the national debt at the end of each year of Clinton Budgets:


Fiscal
Year Year
Ending National Debt Deficit
FY1993  09/30/1993  $4.411488 trillion  
FY1994  09/30/1994  $4.692749 trillion  $281.26 billion
FY1995  09/29/1995  $4.973982 trillion  $281.23 billion
FY1996  09/30/1996  $5.224810 trillion  $250.83 billion
FY1997  09/30/1997  $5.413146 trillion  $188.34 billion
FY1998  09/30/1998  $5.526193 trillion  $113.05 billion
FY1999  09/30/1999  $5.656270 trillion  $130.08 billion
FY2000  09/29/2000  $5.674178 trillion  $17.91 billion
FY2001  09/28/2001  $5.807463 trillion  $133.29 billion



As can clearly be seen, in no year did the national debt go down, nor did Clinton leave President Bush with a budget surplus that Bush subsequently turned into a deficit. Yes, the budget was almost balanced in FY2000 (ending in September 2000 with a deficit of "only" $17.9 billion), but it never reached zero--let alone a positive number. And Clinton's last budget proposal for FY2001, which ended in September 2001, generated a $133.29 billion deficit. The growing deficits started in the year of the last Clinton budget, not in the first year of the Bush administration.
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AMEN snoozie!! thanks for that!
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Here is a little food for thought on a college education and divorce rate. So many times people that do not go to college get married shortly after high school and thus are younger and less mature. The four to five years that it takes to get through most undergrad degrees gives people time to mature and make a better choice. Also going to college widens the selection pool especially when a person lives in a more rural setting and attends a small high school.

Statistic show that the divorce rate for people that wait until they are at least 25 years old regardless of education is much lower than those married at 18 or 19.
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Everyone please remember to go and vote on the 4th.  If you don't, all of the posting is irrelevant and you really don't have a right to complain OR brag of the outcome.

I am so glad I started this to get some ideas flowing!

Peace Out - the NERD.
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Obama voted against the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, saying "On an issue like partial birth abortion, I strongly believe that the state can properly restrict late-term abortions. I have said so repeatedly. All I've said is we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother.

That is his stance? What does "restrcict" actually mean? Kinda leaves it wide open for abortions. Hey this way...all the young folks engaging in sex...get a free pass to have a child! WHich we in turn pay for abortions....and any social services that they mother and child may need. If we put a restriction on having an abortion maybe the kids will think more of self control. In a case of rape....that is the only provision i would accept and only if their was proof.

BTW where is Obama getting 200 Billion dollars to boost his campaign. All presidents have always disclosed this...Why can't he? To dang sneaky for me.
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Of course you and many others are going to claim it "means didly" now that Powell has endorsed Obama, but a couple of days ago, April posted that she admired Powell so much that she would vote for him if he had been running.  That's why I posted the link for her (but she must not have seen it).

And actually, it does say something that a much-admired Republican and long-time friend of John McCain's would come out and do this.  He could have quietly sat back and said nothing and privately voted for Obama on November 4th.  But he didn't.  That speaks volumes, whether you want to admit it or not.

Regarding experience, I think Colin Powell said it best on Meet The Press:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo_WZi0eV1U
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Stand corrected...Obama has gotten 200 million to support his campaign...from where?

I would vote for Powell also if he was running for president. What i mean is...he is one person among millions. Everyone thinks this is the most awesome thing...I just see it as another vote for Obama. No Big Deal. Many republicans are voting democratic as well as many democratic are voting republican. And if Powell didn't want to make a big stink about voting for Obama..why did he? I think it does speak....only to those who choose to think this is an awesome thing.... I keep it simple and very clear facts on why Obama is NO leader for sure. Powell's vote was a shocker for sure. I just don't trust Obama as far as all his ties he DOES and Did have...nor either a record or leg to stand on as to why he should be President. To think Americans have stooped this low to vote for a candidate who came outa nowhere with no proven record..Speaks Volumes to me!
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Wall Street Journal Oct 19, 2008

".....Sen. Obama's September fund raising dwarfed even the $66 million he collected in August -- also a record at the time. About 632,000 new donors fired the September burst, bringing donations to the Illinois senator's campaign to $605 million overall since he launched his campaign at the beginning of 2007. The campaign said that has come from a total 3.1 million donors, in a campaign cycle when political giving has reached new heights across the board...."
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Saw a great bumper sticker that said "The last time we mixed religion and politics, people were burned at the stake."

Personally, I want the freedom to worship whenever, whatever and wherever I choose.  And if anybody tells me at any time that I must be a christian to live here, then I'll move to Canada.
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Savas, I told, no hard feelings! You're my cat buddy.:) Did that sound right, lol? Oh well, you know what I mean! You've helped me out so much with my cats, how could I be mad or stay mad at you?
On a side note, you might be interested in knowing I lived in Japan for awhile and taught English to some local Japanese women. I think I know why their divorce rate is so low. A lot of them have some pretty domineering husbands who call the shots and they're pretty sub servant to them. They are still pretty steep in their old traditions and ways and divorce is still rare. Another interesting note, their crime rate is one of the lowest in the world. I wonder why that is? Some would say it's because their gun laws are so strict but I think it's more than that. They expect a lot out of their kids and have a much better education than our kids too. I thought about putting my kids in a Japanese school while I was there. I had some friends who did. It kind of forced them to learn Japanese, that's for sure! Well, I digress again. Sorry, I think it's the ADD in me. I vear off topics a lot. Also tend to lose my train of thought....
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Oyyyy, i sure hope money doesn't BUY a leader
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snoozie43
I'd like the link to this table please. I have a feeling you're quoting a table that reflects that the national debt clock ran out of numbers in 2,000 (y2k and all that) and thus misread at less than half the true reflected value.

Regardless, you can't use the national debt as a reflection of how the president is doing.

(Well...you can, but that's a complicated issue I won't go into. In terms of how our economy is presently structure, you can't)

I've already listed out countless infractions of the Bush administration's policies that have lead to the present fiscal crisis we face now (with references to specific bills and laws).

I've already listed out numerous references to the criminal violations the Bush administration has committed against the constitution. How anyone can support him is, to me, just baffling.

Clinton was...well..Clinton. Not a great president, but a pretty good one.

I'd like you to provide three, clear references to bills, laws, or regulations that he passed that were violations of the constitution or caused this fiscal crisis, please. I'm not saying they are or aren't there, I'm just curious if you know of any or not.




April2-
Ah, then you know that sometime in the early 90's a "problem" developed where Japanese woman were refusing to marry because they didn't want their career options limited. Those poor Japanese men!!! :)

From what I've seen, their low divorce rate comes about from a strong, inherent social code.  Part of the code does have roles for the men and woman that aren't equal...but...thats one way to keep a low divorce rate. Set up a social/religious setting where one partner is allowed to dominate the other. ;-)

(My wife says there's been some real change in woman's roles becoming stronger in japan in the last decade and that the above is no longer as true. I haven't kept up on it so I can't comment).

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There's no mystery where contributions are concerned, snoozies--like mikesimon posted.  People are supporting him (myself included).  Plain and simple.

Regarding experience, just because he's not been in the national public eye doesn't mean it has no experience.  That's a rather ridiculous assumption.  He went to Harvard Law School and graduated magna *** laude, taught Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago Law School for 12 years, was an Illinois State Senator for 10 years and a US Senator for nearly 4 years.  Add to all that the community organizing, committees, volunteering, awards, etc.  So the "inexperience" talking point falls flat.

He're a quote by Newt Gingrich, commenting on Obama's experience: "Well, Abraham Lincoln served two years in the U.S.House, and seemed to do all right." (Meet The Press 12/17)
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4 years in the senate with NOTHING accomplished. No the national debt did not run out of "clock #'s". Clock #'s is just another spin. Course ya can use the national debt #'s when Bush was elected. It's just proven fact. It also reflects the economy today because Bush inherited a deficit. which in turn goes into what ever deficit he produced. Harvard does not qualify one to run a country...we all have our opinions. Obama is intelligent yes...experienced no. My husband ran his own business for 25 years... that's intelligence. I still wouldn't have him run for president...because he has no experience. What did Obama DO, to turn around his state? Awards and Organizing a community does nothing for the state of affairs.
We can agree to disagree.
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But if you wish to search for where i got the Source for debt?

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
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Well, here's the problem. Clinton WAS president in 2,000 so if what you say was correct, than the one to actually get the credit is Bill Clinton.

Regardless, the clock's plug was pulled on september 7th of 2,000 to avoid confusion due to the problem (I saw it, it was very strange - ie, the countdown).

So if you want to say that in 2,000 the debt was at an all time lowest because of the president...well, then Bill Clinton would be very happy to thank you. :->
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LOL oyyyyyy.

I was just trying to state that others felt there was no debt. There was LOL :O)~
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Heh heh...this thread has been fun but I'm at the point where I load the thread and my screen is threatening to freeze.

Which leaves me with two options;

A: Buy a new and faster computer.

B: Start a new thread.

And since given the state of the economy I don't think I can buy a computer....

Hey, lets discuss Carter in a new thread. Who here got a bag of peanuts in the mail when Carter was running for president?!?! :->
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LOL go for it savas!
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Jimmy Carter - what fun!  I was a kid when he was President but I remember it.  Did you remember him trying get the ethanol started back in the day?  


Love the Clinton clock issue.  I saw the other day that the clock was just recently turned off because it required an additional digit to the clock - not enough zeros.  Sad!  


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Cowgirlnerd and others,

Before questioning and making asinine comments why McCain cannot lift his arms I suggest you do a little research.  For starters McCain was not in a POW camp for "weeks" he was tortured on a daily basis for FIVE AND A HALF YEARS at the Hanoi Hilton which is the nickname for the Vietnam POW camp.  When McCain had a chance to be releaased he said "NO, LET THE OTHERS GO WHO HAVE BEEN HERE LONGER THAN ME".  THAT is a true HERO.

The reason he cannot lift his arms higher is because the Viet Kong took his broken bones in his arms AND legs and tied them up, his arms BEHIND his back 24/7.  All this is documented and you can check it out for yourself.

On the other hand Obama never wore the uniform, never served this country and never fought for this country which McCain did.

Its a free country, THANKS TO OUR MILITARY PEOPLE WHO ARE SERVING, HAVE FOUGHT, ARE FIGHTING AND SOME OF THEM LOST THEIR LIVES FOR US so we have our freedom and to vote for whoever we please.

You do not have to like McCain but at least show some respect for a HERO who has fought for us, was tortured brutally for 5 1/2 yrs, refused to be released because others were there longer than he,  and who puts his country first.  

McCain does not deserve to be made of fun.  I thought this board was a little more mature.
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You obviously didn't read the entire thread.  And I don't blame you, really...it's LOOONG.

While McCain definitely deserves to be respected and appreciated for his service and what he went through, as do ALL men and women who serve their country, that doesn't not mean he would be the best choice for President.  Colin Powell, a retired General and professional soldier for 35 years (who served in Vietnam and has a ton of medals, including the Bronze Star and Purple Heart), obviously doesn't think so either.
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thank you for that comment, some people just don't get it, especially the first one to respond to your comments..you are so right about the "respect", I think the ones that don't appreciate what our troops have done should be shipped to another country and see how they like it there!
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Uh..."especially the first one to respond to your comments"?  Surely you aren't referring to me.  And who here doesn't appreciate what our troops have done?

You really are quite amusing, 2wonderfulboys--seriously...I get a real kick out of you.
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2wonderfulboys,

Thank you for your comment.  I totally agree with you.

Agiesmom,

I did not come on this thread to persuade you or anybody who to vote for, and who would be the best candidate for president.  I simply pointed out "why"  Senator McCain who spent 22 yrs on active duty and 5 1/2 yrs at the Hanoi Hilton where he was brutally tortured 24/7 and therefore can't raise his arms very high and does not deserve to be made fun of by some uninformed, and immature people who make fun of his injuries they know nothing about and don't bother to find out but rather make asinine statements about this hero.

You don't want me to get started on Obama because I DID my research.  He was endorsed by ONE retired General (Powell).  McCain was endorsed by TWO HUNDRED Generals.  

We know all about McCain, but what do we know about Obama?  He spent a few years as a Senator, was a community organizer, and wants to bring "change"

Obama has yet to provide his "original" birth certificate.  A former Attorney General from PA who is a DEMOCRAT is checking into this right now because if Obama was NOT born in the U.S. he is NOT qualified to be president.  His grandmother in Kenya recently stated, as she stated before, that "Obama was born in Kenya and that she was right there when he was born".  Who is lying??  Obama or his grandmother?  His half sister was interviewed and she named a hospital in Hawaii where Obama was born, Obama named a total different hospital in Hawaii.  Who is telling the truth??

Obama has yet to provide his college papers from Columbia and Harvard, He has yet to provide his health records.  McCain on the other hand provided all the above.  Dr. Gupta from CNN said not to long ago "I have looked at thousands of pages of McCain's health records, but saw only a "small paragraph" of Obama's health record".  Even at the young age of 48 a person definately has more than a "small paragraph" of his health records.  
What is he hiding??  

When the Left found out that McCain was born in Panama they jumped all over it accusing him not being an American born citizen.  McCain provided his original birth certificate, and these morons didn't check into that when you are born in Panama while your parent was stationed there you ARE an American born citizen.  Yet McCain still provided his original birth certificate.  Obama's birth certificate from Hawaii posted on the Internet is not the real McCoy.  For exampe "race" was given as- "African", African is NOT a race.  There are millions of "white" people living in Africa.  In 1961 race would have been stated as "negro" or "mulatto" since Obama is bi-racial.

Last but not least 69% of our military and retired military said they will vote for McCain.  Check it out.  Military Times did an "anonymous" poll.  

Its a free country and thank our military that you can vote freely for whoever you want to vote for, and that you are not living in a country where you are told who to vote for and if you don't you end up in jail or worse.
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Wow! I didn't know all that about Obama. Interesting. Thanks for sharing, Barbarella!
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April,

Check this out (click below).  At first I almost did not want to watch it because it looked like it was one of these  tapes  where somebody has a conspiracy etc etc but I am glad that I waited until this former Attorney General from Pennsylvania who gave his full name and the city he lives in I believe its Pittsburgh or Philadelphia I do not remember, until he explained in details why Obama might not be qualified to become President IF he was not born in the U.S. This guy did his homework by the way.

Just wait a few seconds after the beginning of the tape and then pay attention what this Attorney General has got to say about this issue.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWTs1YyhFRg
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I think you might be interested in taking a look at factcheck.com.

"...Recently FactCheck representatives got a chance to spend some time with the birth certificate, and we can attest to the fact that it is real and three-dimensional and resides at the Obama headquarters in Chicago. We can assure readers that the certificate does bear a raised seal, and that it's stamped on the back by Hawaii state registrar Alvin T. Onaka (who uses a signature stamp rather than signing individual birth certificates). We even brought home a few photographs.
You can click on the photos to get full-size versions, which haven't been edited in any way, except that some have been rotated 90 degrees for viewing purposes.
                                    [Photos of the document]
The certificate has all the elements the State Department requires for proving citizenship to obtain a U.S. passport: "your full name, the full name of your parent(s), date and place of birth, sex, date the birth record was filed, and the seal or other certification of the official custodian of such records." The names, date and place of birth, and filing date are all evident on the scanned version, and you can see the seal above...."

The article goes on to address other allegations aimed at discrediting the certificate and even shows the birth announcement in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961.


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You've a right to your opinion.  BTW, does Snopes also talk about where Obama calls white people in one of his books "crackers"??  The book HE, Obama wrote.  Go check it out, you can even hear Obama talk on the audio version of his book, did Snopes also dispute this?  When he called his white grandmother "a typical white woman" is this also a "rumor" when you can hear Obama say it in his own words?

That he attended a church for 20+ with a racist, anti American preacher, Rev. Wright, who married Obama and Michelle Obama and who baptized his kids, where this preacher Rev. Wright called America "GD America", "America of KKK" among many other things.  Oh yes, I forgot Obama claims when Wright made racial, anti American statements Obama was not in church that Sunday.  And these are only "snippets" from what this racist preacher yelled from the podium.  Then why did Obama stop going to this church after 20+ yrs?? Because he is a hypocrite and only stopped going because he was afraid it would hurt his chance of becoming President.

I don't need Snopes to confirm what I hear and see with my own eyes and ears coming out of Obama and company.  

But of course the NY Times is telling the truth??  I heard on the news today that they have a front page story that "McCain's skin cancer had spread".  Yet a doctor besides Dr. Gupta from CNN CONFIRMED that he recently saw McCain's health records and that he is healthy, no signs of cancer, all the tests, stress tests etc were mentioned.  Yet Obama has yet to show/give his health records.

The NY Times did not even look at McCain's health records because they wanted to print a lie and they knew if they would look at his health records they could not print that lie.  SCUM!
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Then why does Obam who KNOWS what his grandmother in Kenya is saying about him being born in Kenya, then why does he not set the record straight once and for all??  McCain did.  Is Obama so arrogant that he thinks he doesn't have to do that?  Well, I guess he doesn't because he is not forced to do so.

As soon as the Left started with rumors about McCain not being born in the U.S. McCain set the record straight.

You cannot blame people as this Attorney General who is a DEMOCRAT by the way wanting to get to the bottom of it.  Its Obama who makes himself and keeps himself suspicious.

I personally could careless where he was born, but if not in the U.S. then he cannot become President.

Obama so far got by with tons of other things, and it doesn't surprise me that he doesn't have to come out and provide his "original" birth certifcate.  Forget the Kenyan grandmother, he Obama named one hospital in Hawaii where he was born, and his half sister named another hospital in Hawaii where Obama was born.  You would think he should set the record straight.
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I checked the Factcheck AGAIN, and these morons who printed that FAKE birth certificate didn't know that "African" is NOT a race.  At least if people want to print fake stuff looking like the real McCoy then be intelligent enought to realize that African is not a "race'.  That joke of a birth certificate does not chive with me.

teko,

Like I said my intention was not to come on here to tell people how to vote.  The first post got me started how an American hero John McCain was being made fun of  because he cannot lift his arms who were broken and tied behind his back 24/7 in a Vietnam POW camp for 5 1/2 yrs.

I have GREAT respect for Senator McCain, I and my family trust him with this country.  McCain served, and fought for this country.  Obama never wore the uniform.  He is an anti miltary individual.  When in Germany he didn't even find it necessary to visit our wounded troops at Landstuhl.  Check it out with the Pentagon, the only guidelines they gave Obama was not to bring photographers, Obama chose not to go at all.

It took him over 900 days to finally visit the troops in Iraq.  When he finally visited them he did not even ask for a  meeting with General Petreaus.

If he should become President lets see how he will handle the Al Quaeda once they will knock at our door again.  

My husband, who was on active duty for 26 yrs, and a tour in Vietnam, and the rest of our family and friends KNOW how McCain would deal with them, and we trust McCain with our country because he makes our country "first".

Remember its because of people like McCain, our brave miltary people that you can vote for whoever you please and that definately includes Obama.

So go for it!
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I don't have time to read all the posts..so forgive me if I am lagging  behind or repeating or speaking totally off topic, BUT.....

HOW COULD ANYONE VOTE FOR OBAMA?

First, he has less experience than Sarah Palin..and Palin is a VP...not president

Obama is going to "spread the wealth"....another socialist/Marxist comment.

He wants CHANGE....Your not kidding....all the change in your pocket

He has associations with Radical Terrorists and Racists

He has no clue about the economy...for his plan to go into effect, he needs TRILLIONS...yes, TRILLIONS of dollars...guess who is paying for that?????  Not just the rich...the middle class too!

He doesn't want to protect our boarders.

Wants to make all illegal aliens, citizens...that means more on our already broke welfare system.

Has ABSOLUTELY NO interest in safeguarding our country.

Voted for tax increases 94 times in the Senate

This is not a black white issue...it is experience vs. inexperience...Obama should not have on the job training...we need someone in there who has experience, especially with this economy.

Also, people say that white people are racists and vote only white....so not true!!!  as a matter of fact, I am still trying to find one black face voting for McCain.....
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Barbarella,
I don't usually impute motive to people unless the motivation is absolutely clear. I have no idea what, if anything, Obama's Grandmother is saying and what, if any, Obama's response has been. And assuming that his Grandmother has made those  statements and that Obama hasn't responded to them, I have no idea whatsoever about his motivation.
I merely provided information regarding Obama's birthplace/birth certificate/US citizenship from a website which I think has been proven to be a very credible source.
I feel that information set the record straight but that is just my opinion. We can differ on that and on anything at all. Opinions are like a*#*+*#s - we all have one.
My personal feeling is that disagreements about policies, whether they concern the economy,US foreign relations or taxation, are appropriate and wholesome. I think the types of character arguments that have dominated much of this campaign (Ayers, US citizenship, Wright) are superfluous when considered in the context of the real problems we are facing. I also think that these issues have been out there for some time now and have been assimilated into the voters' minds and will not change the way the vast majority will vote. We are living in very pressing times. If you think Obama is wrong about any of his policies or is unprepared for the job I would like to hear your opinions and on what basis you formed those opinions.

Suzi-q,
There isn't much to say about that or maybe there is so much wrong information that I don't want to take the time to point it out.
I think you've been Hannitized - Yes I do, you betcha.

Mike
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Wow...I go out canvassing for Obama for the day and come back to all kinds of comments.

Barbarella, I received the same ridiculously false email forwards that you received.  The difference between us is that I researched them and ended up hitting "reply all" to each to inform people that they were incorrect, whereas you choose to post the stuff on message boards (and very likely forwarded them all to everyone you know).  Seriously--try to inform yourself first--then post what you know to be true with credible webpage links verifying it.  You'd be taken much more seriously if you did.  Regarding your husband's service, I truly value and appreciate what he has done!  My deepest thanks goes out to him!  And I value and appreciate Colin Powell, who has held a position in the Executive Branch of our government and spent 35 years serving his country.  Again, he has some interesting points.  Have you actually listened to them?

Mikesimon, suzi is more than a bit Hannitized.  And her last post is packed full of the most inaccurate comments.  In the "Are you kidding me?" thread on the Women's Social board, she spewed many ridiculous and inaccurate comments, and I refuted each one and backed it all with links to non-partisan sources.  Then she would reply with a laugh, saying I "got her" on that one and saying she would educate herself.  Then she'd post some more crazy nonsense, and, again, I'd do the same, explaining that she was wrong and proving it with credible links.  She'd laugh awkwardly again, saying she'll do research.  And now here she is going on again.  Tsk, tsk, tsk.  What can you do, though?  But, yes, she's just parroting Hannity (like many others do, sadly) without actually seeing if it's true.

It's exhausting trying to educate you, suzi--you really need to do at least SOME of the work yourself.  And it's getting a bit boring--I have better things to do and would appreciate it if you can make a bit of an effort yourself.  If you truly wanted to be informed, you'd read.  Read the Snopes links, read at factcheck.org, read factual information about Obama's stance on various issues (his own website might be a start--I think he personally would know more about his stance of something than Sean Hannity):
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

And watch Colin Powell's interview on Meet The Press.  Here, I'll make it easy for you and find the link and paste it right here--no effort involved:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo_WZi0eV1U

Powell said some powerful things--many that totally refute the things you wrote above.  One of the most important things, in my opinion, is that McCain showed very poor judgment when he chose Sarah Palin--again, he was supposed to have chosen someone who would be ready to step in as President on day one.  That would have been the responsible and sensible thing to do.  But, again...it's not about us, it was about him trying to make some clever move to get votes.  Doesn't seem to have worked.

Regarding the "94 times" rhetoric, if you bothered to check, like I've suggested more times than I care to remember, you'd find this:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/tax_tally_trickery.html

No one has experience being president unless it's your second term as president--and that clearly didn't help Bush.  And it IS very valid that Palin has next to no experience when she would likely be President one day if McCain gets elected (although that's looking less and less likely).  And, again, Obama is intelligent and has experience:  graduated with high honors from Harvard Law School, taught Constitutional Law and Illinois University Law School, was an Illinois Senator for 10 years, has been a US Senator for nearly 4 years.  So, the "experience" talking point is a desperate grasping at straws.  Simple as that.

And to say he has no interest in safeguarding our country is downright silly.

Seriously suzi, do you have any idea how it looks when you just regurgitate stuff like that?  Read a bit, why don't you.

Teko, thank you for your links and suggestions.  Unfortunately, it often seems like when people choose to be told what to think, they have no desire to actually read anything or do any research.  It's sad you can be like that and still be able to vote.

Regarding voting--I already voted for Obama on Sunday!  And he's doing very well in my previously red state, thankyouverymuch!
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Obama himself said to spread the wealth....anyone making over 42,000 is considered wealthy when push comes to shove.

There is no way that Obama can spend trillions of dollars on his new plan with only billionaire or millionaires monies.....it comes down to us folks.

Biden himself stated that to be "patriotic" we need to pay more taxes.

I hope I am wrong, because obviously, Obama is going to win...but when the economy takes a bigger nose dive than it already has, we are all going to be in big doodoo.  I won't say "I told you so" because I will be in dire straights with everyone.

Isn't it amazing how there is not going to be an investigation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac until after the election...wonder if that has anything to do with all of the money that Obama has received by the big wigs of these companies.  Did they get back from their vacation (I think it was hunting) yet????  Are they done spending their millions that they took out of our pockets?

We are supposed to be a capitalist country where we can persue our American dreams.  Obama is just a socialist....and that is TOTALLY against what our country is about.

If I am wrong, I will definitely apologize for my ignorance...however, sadly, I don't think I am.

Wake up America!!!
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Agiesmon said "It's exhausting trying to educate you, suzi--you really need to do at least SOME of the work yourself.

Well hardy har har,,,hey Agiesmom, did these people on this recording that educated themselves about Obama??? Yep, all you Obama supporters make fun of McCain supporters saying they don't know what they are talking about, which BTW, Suzi, you are not off base at all, you know what you are talking about,,,,,,so anyhoo, enjoy the recording - very amusing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyvqhdllXgU

BTW I really must say the Dems are doing a great job at keeping ole Jesse and Al quiet these days,,,,,but IF Obama becomes Pres, just think of the nice big jobs they will have. I'm glad Obama had Muslim training when he was young,,,,I can't wait to see what the White House lawn looks like with goats on it..  
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Ok...I'm starting to think you are just someone having fun and messing with me, suzi.  Am I on some internet version of Candid Camera?

Did you go to Fact Check?  Or are you going to keep making ME do all the work?  It's not hard...type in "www.factcheck.org" and then type what you want to look up in the "search" box.  Here ya go...here's a review of the "$42,000" claim:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/more_tax_deceptions.html

And, suzi...I linked you to stuff refuting this in the past.  Do you have memory issues?  If you do, I apologize.  Otherwise, stop drinking the kool-aid and look stuff up!

I saw that clip of Biden.  I guess it's a matter of perception, but I thought it was a bit tongue-in-cheek myself.  Yeah, the extremely wealthy will have to pay more in taxes and that group includes SEAN HANNITY--so it's really no wonder he's trying to brainwash you by invoking fear.  I'm surprised that Biden quote was inflated to the point of making you post about it.  No...actually, I'm not.  Another sign of desperation.

Regarding Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081019/ap_on_bi_ge/the_influence_game_housing/print

And in case you're wondering (another false claim--this one related to Fannie Mae):
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/are_three_former_fannie_mae_executives_economic.html
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/fanniemae.asp

He's not a socialist:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/distribute.asp

Seriously--please read before you post stuff and save us all some time.

Looks like you are the one who needs to wake up, Suzi.  America is already awake.  And voting.
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Was that supposed to be a point of some sort?  You linked me to a Howard Stern radio bit.  I'm guessing your point is that Democrats can be ignorant, too,  I never said they could not.  I'm corresponding with people HERE who post ignorant and ridiculous things as fact (yourself included).  If someone from Howard Stern's radio show wants to post stupid stuff here, I'll enlighten them, too.
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  I've come to the conclusion that it does no good to try and get some people to research and to learn the truth about Obama when it's so much easier to spread garbage spewed from over zealous followers that take no time to think for themselves. I am ashamed to say that I have been a life long republican, because this year I will be voting a straight Democratic ticket, in fact I voted today.
   Yes John McCain was a POW, yes he served our country. He also came home alive. My brother fought in the same war, his second four in Viet Nam, and he was killed when he threw himself over a grenade to protect his men. My Aunt was given his Congressional Medal of Honor.
    58,148 were killed in Vietnam, are we going to have to lose that many more men and women before people realize that Iraq was targeted on untruths? There were a lot of African American soldiers killed in Viet Nam and in every war that we have had. Sounds to me like you are saying that they are good enough to help fight and die for our freedom, but not good enough to take this country and get it straightened back out.
    I am white, and yes my taxes will be raised when Obama is elected. If you people who said that Obama was going to raise taxes over 42,000 dollars would have paid attention, you would have heard him say that he would raise taxes on those of us who make over 250,000 dollars a year.
   I take offense when a woman who is running for a public office calls those women that don't agree with her leftist feminist. And I take offense when a man with John McCains background to stand up and say that Palin knows more about having a special child than any other woman knows. Excuse me!! A lot of women work hard everyday to take care of their special child, a lot of women have been heart broken at the loss of their special child, me included.
   I decided to vote democrat when McCain started his bashing,and then when he picked Palin for his running mate made the decision for me. The very thought of that sugar breeches taking over if McCain becomes unable to be our president scares me to death.
   It's time that the USA earns the respect of the world again. Under Obama's guidance we have the best chance we've had in 8 years. Argue all you want, but the fact is, Bush has been one of the worst presidents this country has ever had. And we don't need another 4 years of his administration.

Kidd
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Oh you are funnnneeee!  I like YOU too!!!.....maybe I will send you an invitation to be my friend.....Yeah - ooh goody, Agies gonna be my friend, thank you Agie, please teach me the truth about Obama and life in general.

MO  (soon to be Agiesmoms friend)......Lets go shopping tomorrow and do lunch too, see ya!
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Aggie...I read many of your links...However, they are skewed to the left just like everything else that you post.  Time will tell and prove you wrong.  I would appreciate that we stick to the topic and not get personal.  It definitely has hit a nerve with you...but that is just a condition with ALL liberals...it is a cult and obviously your kool-aid has you quite on edge.

I definitely feel that Obama is going to win because of people like you who skew to the LEFT with everything.  It is a shame that our Country that was built on free enterprise and capitalizism and the right for a person to work hard and reap THEIR rewards for their hard work is going to be taken away...I said it before and I WILL SAY IT AGAIN...he proposes a SOCIALIST SOCIETY....

You can quote your SNOPES all you want and I will state my opinions and facts that I have gotten.  Let's leave it at that.  

I am a member of medhelp and have the right to voice my views just as much as you.  If you don't want to read them, then don't...it's a free country...then again, if Obama gets in that may change.

Also, don't worry about my education...maybe you can sit on the computer all day and check hundreds of sites, however, I don't have the time as you do...I have a busy life..and I believe my sources just as you do yours.

Respectfully,

Suzi
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Suzi, unfortunately everything on which you focus is so far right leaning that anything will seem left of that--even if it's somewhere in the middle.  Yes, time will tell, though.

Can you link me to your facts?  If it's just something you heard someone say (your source), there should still be facts somewhere to back it if it's true.

Voice away.  No one's trying to stop you.  Just correcting what you incorrectly state so other's don't think it's fact.

Oh, and isn't it too bad that Joe Sixpack or Joe the Plumber can't get the government to pay for THEIR kids' vacations?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_el_pr/palin_family_travel

Suzi, isn't that what they, and YOU (and many other McCain/Palin supporters), claim to be AGAINST?  That's "spreading the wealth" taken to an extreme, don'tcha think?  Sounds like serious abuse to me.

And here's an article on "spreading the wealth" that is very interesting:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081021/ap_on_el_pr/spreading_the_wealth_2
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Well to all the democrats that voted early, and who will vote, who will you blame when Obama/Osama gets in the white house?  Don't blame the Republicans for what will happen like terrorist attacks, socialism, higher taxes, and I really liked the "goats in the white house" remark, and then when you figure out that it was a mistake you can't take it back...Oh maybe Acorn can get you registered again, and Obama will be greatful, after all they are endorsing him...and yes I know it's too late to register, just making a comment.  Go vote Republicans ! Our country is counting on us!!  
Maybe we should now start a page on illegal immigrants, would that get some attention too?
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We won't blame you...and you won't have to thank us--just enjoy the better economy, better healthcare, and welcoming your loved ones home from Iraq!  :)

But seriously, 2wonderfulboys...what do you think of the latest on Palin?
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...I think it would perhaps be more productive if we didn't focus on innuendo, lies, spin and general silliness and focus on actual issues.

O still have yet to see very few on here actually quote specific bills and laws passed or supported by either candidate.

birth certificates? Torture in POW camps? "White" or "black"?  War hero?

none of this matters. The only matters is the record of what these candidates have done.

Which means really looking at their past records, and what they've done.
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I am still waiting for someone to state ONE thing that Obama has done while he was in the Senate besides ruin Chicago and the state of Illinois.


To MYOWN..thank for for being a source of reason on this thread....

LET'S SPREAD THE WEALTH PEOPLE!!!!!  SO WE CAN ALL BE IN THE POOR HOUSE...We will end up in a two tier society...The Rich (Obama eating his caviar)...and us, the poor...funding all of his worthless and impossible projects.

What a shame that we are going to ruin, even with many faults, the greatest nation in the world that ALLOWS us to have debates like we are having right now.


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Huh? You do realize we have that now? An elite wealthy class and a without hope poor class? That we've had 8 years of republican rule that have gone a long way towards creating this?

Where do people get this stuff? My favorite is those who blame the democrats for the whole present day situation, when the democrats haven't had any power in over 8 YEARS!!!

They've had control of the senate by a single majority vote for what, one year now? And Bush vetoes anything they try to put through. So how in God's name is it the democrat's or Obama's fault that our country is such a wreck?

All right, suzi-q, please provide specific examples of how Obama single handedly ruined the state of Illinois.

I think its about time that we start having some accountability about what we say in general.
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165308_tn?1323190145
Savas,

The economy is struggling...of course I know this.  However, Obama feels to improve the economy we need to tax the rich.  In order for him to raise the trillions that he needs for his plans, it will trickle down to the middle class.  Also, I personally do not believe that the rich should be penalized for being rich....it is the American dream.  Maybe the welfare people should get jobs instead of milking the system.  Why should a hard working person have to constantly pay for those who don't see the need to work?  I believe that there should definitely be help for those who need it, but a cap and time limit needs to be added.

The economy grew strong when Reagan was president.  The only thing Clinton did was reap the rewards of what Reagan did.

I feel the post 9-11 economy was managing its own for what our country came through.  And Bush is the one to thank.  The economy was holding its own until the Democrats took over the Senate.  The last year with Congress pushing Banks to give subprime mortgages it one of the main reasons for the economies failure.

Obama's education plan that he implemented in Chicago was a total failure...there was no improvement whatsoever after millions of dollars were spent.

The murder rate since he took office has been on the rise.

I know there are more...to quote Palin, "I'll get back to ya'"
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I'll never understand this country's obsession with a fair tax on the wealthy when so many in this country aren't wealthy. It's as if we were talking about protecting an endangered species.

If I understand right, he's taxing everyone (which both candidates would do). Obama's plan calls for a raise in tax on that is only 3% for those making over $250,000.

(Do you realize that Bill Gates has so much money that he could give $100,000 to every American and still be fine? Its called disproportionate skewing of wealth. There's no reason on earth a single person should have that much money. It's counter productive to society's well being).

So he's not "Taxing the wealthy". He's proposing a tax on those Americans who can most afford it. Considering that the tax for poorer Americans has been made disproportionately high COMPARED to those making over $250,000, it would just be a leveling of the playing field.

Like I said, the democrats didn't "take over the senate". They have had a ONE VOTE majority for one year. For those who don't know what this means;

To pass a bill in the senate despite presidential opinion, 3/4's of the senate must vote the bill through. HOWEVER, when it's  less than 3/4's percentage (like it is now, since the democrats have only one vote) the President (Bush) has the option to VETO any bill the marginal majority puts through. So the democrats haven't had control, the republicans do. Via Bush, who vetoes any democratic supported bill.

It's often reffered to as a deadlocked senate, in which nothing productive gets accomplished.

And regardless, the damage that's been done to our economy is in large part a result of the deregulation of the market place by this administration over the last 8 years.

So this is the BUSH administration's fault. If you'd like, I'll start a journal entry that discusses economic theory in detail where people can discuss the issue more at length, because I get the impression that most Americans don't understand country/global economic theory (and why should they? They should be able to trust the experts to handle that sort of thing!!!)

All right, I know nothing of Obama's education plan in Chicago. I'll look into it too. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a failure though, since education in this country is in the toilet everywhere.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time luv, I just want people to back their info with facts from reliable sources. There's a lot of mudslinging going about and I grow weary of it. I'd be defending McCain just as avidly if someone said something spurious against him in this thread as well.
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LOVE IT!
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Are you kidding?

"So he's not "Taxing the wealthy". He's proposing a tax on those Americans who can most afford it. Considering that the tax for poorer Americans has been made disproportionately high COMPARED to those making over $250,000, it would just be a leveling of the playing field."

In 2006 the average tax rate for the top 5% was 22.79%. So how is raising their taxes making it fairer when the tax payers in the lower 50% have an average tax rate was 3.01%. What kind of math says that 22.79% < 3.01%, (< is “less than” for those that struggle with equality signs)

tax rates from http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/250.html
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165308_tn?1323190145
Savas,

People who are grossing over $250,000 a year are NOT wealthy here in the NY area by any means whatsoever.

Grossing and Netting are two different things.  

Example, my husband and I were looking into buying a Subway at one point.  The store we were looking at grossed close to 300,000.  WOW!! We said.  After taxes, cost, royalties and whatever else, the business netted 50,000 a year.  A middle class family in the tri-state area cannot live on this amount comfortably.  

Obama's plan is going to have the trickle down effect whether he says so or not...there is no way his plan that needs over a trillion dollars can do that!!!!

And once again I have to say that I do not feel a person who is wealthy should be penalized for it.

Thank you, Savas, for being such a gentleman in your reply...it is a friendly debate with you as opposed to others.
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All the Obama supporters just take a glimps at Obama, islam, terrorism, terrorists.

it baffles me as to why people are so upset ..that they would vote for Obama...Is this what Americans have stooped 2? His record PROVES he has done nothing! for the state of Illinois... for leading anything but Acorn out of a economic crisis. I say Acorn is a economic crisis because.....THEY did this to the lending market.

are we that desperate to elect a man with no credentials? It will come to haunt us be sure of that. Oh and if Obama loses......can you see the waters rise from riots?

Oyyy
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THE TAX FACTS

OBAMA FICTION
John McCain Will Tax Health Care Benefits For The First Time And Will Be the Largest Middle Class Tax Increase In History.

THE FACTS
This Obama charge is a blatant mischaracterization of the McCain Health Plan. It only focuses on the fact that the value of the employer provided insurance will now show up as additional income for the employees – what he fails to mention – is that John McCain’s generous refundable tax credit ($5,000 for families and $2,500 for individuals) will not only shield millions of families from a tax increase but will actually give them MORE dollars to invest in their health care needs.

The McCain Plan DOES NOT tax:

    * Premiums paid by families and individuals

    * Employers for providing health care coverage

    * Medical expenses like the cost of a procedure or medication

    * Insurance claims

Approach Supported By Obama’s Own Advisor: This is an approach supported by Barack Obama's own Senior Economic Advisor Jason Furman who wrote that "we could scrap the current deduction altogether and replace it with progressive tax credits that, together with other changes, would ensure that every American has affordable health insurance."

Better Than "Members of Congress":  Under the McCain Plan, your employer can provide you with health insurance  as good as a "Member of Congress" (approximately $12,000), and you would pay no  more in taxes – regardless of your tax bracket.  In fact, you would have additional money left over from the McCain tax credit to put in a health savings account.
  
Income Tax Liability

McCain-Palin
Tax Credit

Total Tax Savings
10% Bracket
(Up to $15,000)
$1,200 ($12,000 x 10%) $5,000 +$3,800
15% Bracket ($15,650 - $63,700)
$1,800 ($12,000 x 15%) $5,000 +$3,200
25% Bracket ($63,700 - $128,500)
$3,000 ($12,000 x 25%) $5,000 +$2,000
28% Bracket ($128,500 - $195,850)
$3,360 ($12,000 x 28%) $5,000 +$1,640
33% Bracket ($195,850 - $349,700)
$3,960 ($12,000 x 33%) $5,000 +$1,040
35% Bracket ($349,700 and Over)
$4,200 ($12,000 x 35%) $5,000 +$800

Where Is The Middle-Class "Tax Increase"?   If you or your family is in the 28% bracket, with an income of $180,000, you could receive employer provided health insurance even better than a Member of Congress, with a cost of almost $18,000, with no increase in taxes. Even the liberal leaning Tax Policy Center, agrees that the McCain proposals will result in a "net tax benefit" of more than $1,200 for an average tax payer. A recent Lewin Group study estimated savings of more than $1,400 per American family – almost three times the savings as under the Obama plan.
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The Center for American Progress Action Fund report stated that "Under McCain's plan, insurance companies would be free to 'cherry pick' only those individuals for coverage who do not have costly health conditions and avoid state regulations that keep health care accessible and affordable." In addition to this, experts have criticized McCain's healthcare plan. According to a report in Health Affairs,  "In a national market where state licenses are not required, insurers will charter in places where regulations are scarce--much like credit card companies do today. As a result, people guaranteed basic benefits today would find those benefits eliminated under the McCain plan."
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This is really an important fact to me.  Myself, I have bipolar1 and mental health has always been an issue that gets less than adequate treatment under most health plans.  If we are subject to being cherry picked - who's to say we won't be excluded for this issue - or other expensive items.

Also, the tax credit that McCain is proposing - it provides $2500 for a single person  - (which I am) to choose my health care coverage.  OK, here's my delima - Every month - as the Operations Manager of a SMALL BUSINESS - I write a check to our health insurance provider.  I KNOW HOW MUCH INSURANCE COSTS:

* Individual Payment (total including our generous employer's 50% amount -seriously, a lot of employers dont pay anything -  ACTUAL COST $4358.12 -  TAX BENEFIT to "choose my policy" $2500.00 = I am SHORT $1858.12....
**Family Coverage (again, total amount) ACTUAL COST $12,095.72 - TAX BENEFIT $5,000.00 = short $7,095.72.

I have gone over this and over this trying to see why McCain thinks this is such a great idea - maybe I am missing something - ???

  
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Straight from McCain

The Four Pillars of Reform

Affordability. John McCain believes in making health care more affordable for all Americans by ensuring that drug companies, doctors, insurance companies, hospitals and every other aspect of the health care system competes vigorously to respond to their needs. By rewarding quality, promoting prevention and delivering health care more effectively and efficiently we can ensure that every American can afford health care coverage of their choice.

Access & Choice. John McCain believes that every American should have access to quality and affordable coverage of their choice, including keeping
their current coverage. American families – not government bureaucrats or insurance companies – should choose the coverage that best meets their unique needs.

Portability & Security. John McCain believes in allowing every American to keep their health insurance as they move from job to job or job to home, and protecting Americans' economic security from unforeseen health events by expanding coverage and savings options.

Quality. John McCain believes in strengthening health care quality by promoting research and development of new treatment models, promoting wellness, investing in technology and empowering Americans with better information on quality.
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I don't buy it.  A lot of ideas/beliefs and no facts.   AFFORDABILITY - I already covered that ......it's not affordable to me.    Was my math wrong?  Would I not be short on $$?

Thanks for trying, though!  



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If obama/osama getst into office you won't have a job, you said you work for a small business, so don't worry about your healthcare, the owners will get rid of most of you due to the increase in their taxes, so just go on welfare like Obama/osama is going to push some people to and the wealthy will pay for us all. Instead of dogging on McCain all the time why not REALLY check out the Obama/Osama plan...taxing people that make more than 250,000 are the owners of small businesses as well, so they will just down size....meaning good-by employees!!
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Obama/osama ??
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165308_tn?1323190145
   ARE WE STUPID OR WHAT?

                     It makes you wonder.......

                                     Part 1
                     Remember the election in 2006?

                     Thought you might like to read the following:

                          A little over one year ago:
                     1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;
                     2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;
                     3) The unemployment rate was 4.5%.
                     Since voting in a Democratic Congress in 2006 we have seen:
                     1) Consumer confidence plummet;
                     2) The cost of regular gasoline soar to over $4.10 a gallon;
                     3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);
                     4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity value evaporate (stock and mutual fund losses);
                     5) American s h ave seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion dollars;
                     6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.
                     7) Food prices skyrocketing over 30% in 1 year.

                     America voted for change in 2006, and we got it!

      Remember, it is Congress that makes the laws and spends our money -not the President. He has to work with what's handed to him.


                     Part 2:
     Taxes...Whether Democrat or a Republican you will find these statistics enlightening and amazing.
                       www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.HTML

                     Taxes under CLINTON-1999                     Taxes under BUSH-2008
                     Single  earning:                  ;                         Single earning:
                     30K - taxed- $   8,400                                  30K - taxed $   4,500
                     50K - taxed  $ 14,000                                  50K - taxed $ 12,500
                     75K - taxed  $ 23,250                                  75K - taxed $ 18,750
                     Married ear ning:                                         Married earning:
                     60K -   taxed  $ 16,800                               60K - taxed $   9,000
                     75K -   taxed $ 21,000                                75K - taxed $ 18,750
                     125K - taxed $ 38,750                                125K - taxed $ 31,250

     Barack Obama promises to return to the higher tax rates if elected. It is amazing how many people who fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever.

    If elected, Barack Obama has already promise d that he will repeal the Bush tax cuts , and amazingly, a good portion of the people who fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen.

                     PART 3:
      You think the war in Iraq is costing us too much?   Read this: Boy, am I confused.  I have been hammered with the propaganda that it is the Iraq war and the war on terror that is bankrupting us. I now find that to be RIDICULOUS.  Read on...

          
                     1.      $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year by state governments.Verify at:   http://tinyurl.com/zob77
                          
                     2.      $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
                            Verify at:   http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

                     3.      $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
                            Verify at:   http://wwwcis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
  
                     4.     $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!
                           Verify at:   http://transcripts.CNN.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.HTML
  
                     5.      $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
                           Verify at:   http://transcripts..cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html  
  
                     6.  $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
                           Verify at:   http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
  
                     7.  30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
                           Verify at:   http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
  
                     8.  $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
                           Verify at:   http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html
                     9.  $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
                          Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html
  
                     10.  The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens.  In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US  Verify at:   http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html
                          
                     11.  Durin g the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries.  Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin,  marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.
                            Verify at: Homeland Security Report:   http://tinyurl..com/t9sht
  
                     12.  The National Policy Institute, 'estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of  between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.'  Verify at:   http://www.nat  ionalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf
                          
                     13.  In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.Verify at:   http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm
  
                       14.  'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States 'Verify at:   http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
                          
                  The total cost is a whopping $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR.

                  Are we THAT stupid?
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The rest of the world has been closely watching this election and they are all supporting Obama. I know that many of the people in other countries seem to know more about American politics and American history... than most Americans do !
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sure the rest of the world is supporting Obama/osama , they want him in office to RUIN AMERICA!  Think about it, and yes I called him osama, what's the difference between the two of them?  ummmmmmmmmmm,,, one is hiding out and the other is running for President of United States and brainwashing people into thinking he is the messiah. Get real people, other countries would love to see him ruin America, most of them can't stand us anyway, especially the muslims, his real religion...WAKE UP!!!!!
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Suzi, what exactly was your point of posting a bunch of anti-immigration stuff from right-leaning anti-immigration websites?

Here's Obama's Immigration Plan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiUzJB3nagw&feature=related

Of course if you want to round everyone up and ship them out and build a big wall and have guards walking it and shooting at anyone attempting to enter, you won't like it.  Heck, you won't like McCain's either for that matter.

Regarding taxes...I already posted it on the other thread, but I'll copy and paste it again here:

Obama actually wants tax cuts for 95% of Americans--he only wants to raise them on the top 5% income earners in this country.  So if you have a hard time keeping track of how many houses you own, can see where this would be a huge issue for you.  But if you only make a meager $249,999 per year, you will be ok.

Actually, you'll be better off with Obama's plan up to an annual income of $111,645.  After that, it's still good and you will still get cuts, but McCain's plan gets more generous the higher the income whereas Obama's plan is more generous up to $111,645/year.

All that said, if you make up to $603,000 per year, your taxes should only go up about $12 (I'm sure you can swing that if you are making that kind of money).  Are all the people who are frantic about the tax issue here really making over $603,000/year?  You are very fortunate if you are.  If that's the case, I can see where you would want McCain's plan.

Here is a table comparing the two plans (the analysis is by a non-partisan organization called the Tax Policy Center):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

Oh...and in McCain's ad talking about how your taxes will go up, he doesn't specify that the the YOU in the ad to whom he is speaking are people in the top ONE PERCENT income bracket in this country.  I know, I know--technically it's not a lie, but...

2wonderfulboys, your crazy, slanderous, Chicken Little comments are nothing but ridiculously ignorant.  Seriously--it's laughable.

It's getting a bit boring, but I will post a couple of links for you again.  You probably won't bother reading them, but I'm choosing to believe that deep down you are smart enough to truly know better and just can't bring yourself to admit it:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/he_lied_about_bill_ayers.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_obama.html

You are obviously upset and panic-stricken--you are grasping at straws and puking any nutty thing out in the hopes that it sticks (actually, that's exactly what the McCain campaign is doing!).  But the majority of America is awake...and voting for Obama.  I canvass regularly IN A RED STATE and my lists are consistently 1/3 to 1/2 Republicans.  The first time I went out, I asked if we were supposed to try to discuss issues or attempt to sway them, but was told, "No, they are already Obama supporters--just tell them about early voting and ask if they need a ride to the polls."  It's really nice to talk to these people.  Very intelligent and informed.  I have never been involved in or donated to a campaign in my life.  This has been an exciting experience and very educational--for my children as well.
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609884_tn?1227333003
From the same document:


"The top-earning 25 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $64,702) earned 68.2 percent of the nation's income, but they paid more than four out of every five dollars collected by the federal income tax (86.3 percent). The top 1 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $388,806) earned approximately 22.1 percent of the nation's income (as defined by AGI), yet paid 39.9 percent of all federal income taxes. That means the top 1 percent of tax returns paid about the same amount of federal individual income taxes as the bottom 95 percent of tax returns."

BTW;

You do understand that 3% of 30,000 dollars when 30,000 dollars is a poverty level income that you can't afford the basics of life when compared to 22% of $388,000...well, it isn't really comparable to say "They only get taxed 3%"?

You also do understand that after a tax accountant gets done with the various deductions and tax shelters that the 22% figure is MUCH lower?

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I'm awake. I've already done my research and I don't listen to one news station.. but I choose to listen to them all (conservative and liberal). And I know that Obama certainly isn't Osama !
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I think all Americans need to support whoever is elected president. We need to remember that our fellow Americans selected this person and both candidates have served their country. Of course McCain is a war hero and Obama had the chance to work as a high paid attorney, but chose to become a community organizer instead. I think it is deplorable that people here would call Obama, "Osama". I guess we need to keep checking out urban myth websites such as snopes.com.
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(Vic, the above was me, not Mrs.Savas. Got to figure out how to deactivate the med help auto login).

-------
I'm not really enthused by either candidate's health care plans. both of them seem like band aids on a system that needs major overhauling.

Frankly, health care is one of the reasons I was supporting Hillary. She at least had the cojones to take on the health care industry when she was a senator.

Of course, she failed, but that was to be expected. Health care is a huge power/economic block for some major companies who NEED the health care system set up the way it is so they can get make all that money so they can pay for their limos, mansions, corporate jets, etc...

Thank God they can use the scare tactic of socialized medicine to send Americans scampering to vote against real change!

After all, if we actually had "socialized medicine", then Americans wouldn't need to cross the border to take advantage of the Canadian Health Care System, and that's a huge savings for this country, right???

I was hoping she still had some of that "fire inside" that she had when she tried to take on the health care system and would make another go at it.

Use the health care plan I have;

I simply refuse to get sick. If I do, I know I'll be screwed. So, I don't beleive it will happen.

It's a faith based health care plan...VERY American. ;-)
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