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McCain / Obama - Debate - Pappaw escapes from the home
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Avatar_f_tn
I'm Glad Palin had the GOP pay for her clothing, at least she is honest about where her 150 thousand came from. Can Obama be honest where his 150 Million cam from? :D
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152852_tn?1205717026
Snoozies, I'm glad Palin had the GOP pay for her clothing, too--less money for lying ads against Obama!  ;D

Obama's money came from everywhere, but he has an unprecedented number of small donors, like me.  Here's an excerpt from an article I read (link below it):
"...In addition, his Internet small donors continues to explode. He now has over 3 million donors. The vast majority of them are under the $200 amount that you have to record their names on the files for, so he grew in both ways..."

They comment on how he goes back to the same well--and he does; and it works.  I've donated four times.  And I have never in my life donated to any campaign--ever.  And while Obama impresses me, I have to say that some of the inspiration to donate to Obama's campaign came from McCain.

Here's the article:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec08/fundraising_10-21.html
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Avatar_f_tn
To those of you who are "glad the GOP paid for her clothes" - ok, did you notice on the news this morning that now Palin says that she doesn't owe taxes on those items because they "Belong to the GOP".....  She is supposed to list that as an income, but doesn't thinks she should have to list it OR pay taxes - Let me say that again - SHE DOESN"T THINK SHE SHOULD HAVE TO PAY TAXES ON $150,000, THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY GAVE HER TO MAKE HER LOOK MORE ACCEPTABLE!  Her "hockey Mom" wardrobe wasn't good enough!

I know myself, I haven't spent $150,000 in clothing in my life, and couldn't afford to in the first place, but if I was "gifted" that much - I am quite sure that I would be taxed on it.  

That's another reflection of her opinion that rules don't apply to her.

It was reported that Paul and Cindy McCain buy their clothes; Barak and Michelle Obama buy their clothes; Bill and Hillary Clinton buy their clothes; Joe and Jill Biden buy their clothes.

If McCain believes so much in her - why couldn't he and Cindy McCain go and take a spending spree on them - they definitely have enough cash to do that?  NO???   What???  Maybe they couldn't afford it either........

It's not that the talk of the $150K should be a topic of political topics - let's face it, there are worse things out there - but it's ethics and "walking the walk" as she likes to say.  If we "walked her walk" we could employ high school friends to high paying positions; fire people that **** off your sister; not pay taxes on the gift if we didn't want to.


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165308_tn?1323190145
Oh the Naivate!  On paper, OF COURSE Obama's plan looks good...but physically, it is NOT able to happen!  I HAVE SAID THIS TEN TIMES!  There is NO WAY that he can fund his trillion dollar plan by taxing the top 5% ONLY!  Also,  DO NOT think that is the American way!  Why should a rich person be penalized for his wealth?????  I can't believe that you just don't "get it!"

I know that McCain supported that rediculous Amnesty bill....that is one reason why McCain wasn't my first choice at all, but I have to settle for what we got!!!

Let's just hope that whoever gets in will improve our economy, defend our boarders, and secure our nation.

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Avatar_m_tn
From the news reports that I have heard, obviously it was not from the liberal left media, after the election the clothes that she was ”bought” will go up for action and the proceeds will go to charity. Of course the left wouldn’t want to hear this or report that tid bit.

Here is a question, how many of you either get or know someone who is supplied uniforms by their employer? Are you/they taxed for the use of them? I think not, same difference here.

Women are judged more on the clothes they wear than men are, that’s a fact. Put a nice suit on a guy and all is good. If Palin didn’t look good the media would play that up too, look at how the dogged Hilary and her pant suits and they were on her side.

Nice try now find a real topic.
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152852_tn?1205717026
Cowgirlnerd, I think it's very responsible of Sarah Palin to make a meager $150,000 stretch over MONTHS like that--Cindy McCain spent twice that, $300,000, on ONE outfit for ONE day.  I think this just shows how sensible and responsible Sarah Palin truly is--it shows she's a Maverick who truly understands folks like you and me.  I'm surprised you don't see that.  ;D
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203342_tn?1328740807
I think it's terrible and down right shameful the way they are making personal attacks on Palin. You don't see this with ANY other candidate. Yet through this all she's held her composure. I admire her for that. The way she was treated on SNL was down right slanderous and I think she could have a lawsuit on her hands if she wanted.
In case you missed that one, here it is:

Todd Palin portrayed as a child molestor who rapes his own daughters

*Update* 2pm CST
When this story was originally published, the video was from the SNL was available on YouTube. It has since been removed and a notice posted that NBC Universal has issued a copyright claim. Many other SNL videos remain on YouTube. It’s only this blatant Palin smear video that SNL doesn’t want you to see!
_________________________________________

They can try to call it comedy, they can excuse it as a “joke”, but what they can’t do is erase the pain they’ve caused to thousands of young girls, & now adult women around the world who have actually been molested by their own ********* fathers in reality. You know, that place that SNL’s producers & writers never live in?

With the following ill advised line:
One reporter in the skit asks (referring to Todd Palin): “What about the husband? You know he’s doing those daughters. I mean, come on. It’s Alaska.”

Something that most of the media has ignored, is that this was more than an incest reference (which is bad enough.) Palin’s daughters, Bristol, Willow and Piper, are 17,14 & 7 years old respectively. The comment made in the so called SNL “skit” stated that: “You know he’s doing those daughter(s)”. That is plural, thus inferring that Todd Palin is not only engaging in incest, but that he’s raping his own children.

Saturday Night Live has mocked one of the most horrific crimes that can be committed against a child, under the guise that they were “making fun of biased reporters.” Unfortunately for them, they have become the biased reporters by making a comparison that is socially unacceptable, libelous, & certainly hurtful to the Palin family, & anyone who has been a victim of child molestation.

This was not funny in any way. Here’s what it was: Selfish, Libel, Slanderous, Thoughtless, Disgusting, Perverse, Hateful, Viscious, Hurtful, & therefore Un-American.

It is also unfortunately one of a long series of vicious attacks by the Main Stream Media, & media in different forms. SNL, you tried to smear the Palin family by veiling it as “comedy”, but the joke is on you. Nobody is buying it. I have in the past enjoyed much of the comedy on Saturday Night Live, but now that it’s become an immoral cesspool & an unapologetic political attack machine for the left, it will never be on my TV screen again. In light of SNL comedian Tina Fey’s recent statement about Palin, we can get an idea of the spirit behind her so called “comedy impression” of Sarah. Fey recently said the following:

    “I want to be done playing this lady Nov. 5, so if anyone could help me be done playing her on Nov. 5, that would be good for me..”

Oh, & then there’s Al Franken’s recent “contributions” to SNL. That’s not too much of a conflict of interests huh?
Three Words for you Mrs. Fey: Partisan-Hack-Comedians

SNL = Saturday Night Libelists

Meanwhile SNL has failed to mention Barack Obama’s children, but we know that won’t happen. That would be racially insensitive, & completely inappropriate. Well, unless you are the children of a Republican apparently..

See the evidence while you can. As mentioned above, SNL has sicked its lawyers on Youtube asking them to move ONLY THIS VIDEO, while leaving all others alone. You’ll also notice that this skit mocks Alaska in general, with comments about a lack of psychiatric care in the state, infers that everyone is a gun nut, & the list goes on..

SNL Makes Light of Incest Slur on Palin Family
by bustergonad1

Meanwhile as his supporters are launching organized Smears by proxy, Obama inc. & more Corruptocrats are plotting hide the truth about him from voters..

~Dan Lee

Then she gets attacked by CNN who puposly misquotes from the NR to again slander her. Here's that piece in case you missed that one too:

During an interview with Palin, CNN pulled out a quote from National Review columnist Byron York that seemed to have York calling Palin stupid, among other things.

But the thing is that the words CNN attributed to National Review were taken out of context.

    Watching press coverage of the Republican candidate for vice president, it’s sometimes hard to decide whether Sarah Palin is incompetent, stupid, unqualified, corrupt, backward, or — or, well, all of the above. Palin, the governor of Alaska, has faced more criticism than any vice-presidential candidate since 1988, when Democrats and the press tore into Dan Quayle. In fact, Palin may have it even worse than Quayle, since she’s taking flak not only from Democrats and the press but from some conservative opinion leaders as well....

    Yes, there are legitimate concerns about Palin’s lack of experience. Who wouldn’t, at the very least, wish that she had more time in the governor’s office on her résumé? But a look at Palin’s 20 months in power, along with interviews with people who worked with her, shows her to be a serious executive, a governor who picked important things to do and got them done — and who didn’t just stumble into an 80 percent job-approval rating.

That’s probably one of the worst media ambush/hatchet jobs I’ve ever seen.
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Avatar_f_tn
Too funny!  Good point - way too funny.

Hey - what's the difference between a "Hockey Mom" and Sarah Palin??  Neiman Marcus!!  HEE HEE!

Can't you just imagine that conversation?   Cindy McCain, "Daaaling, you just CAN'T go out looking like....well, THAT!?  Paul....we MUST get her presentable if she is to be seen with....well, US!  How embarrassing!!!!"

************** on the question on the uniform****************  the uniforms we provide to the employees in my company don't cost $150,000, and they don't make the income of a Governor - she should buy her own clothes.    I pay $6.00 per week to put uniforms on the employees at our company.  

If you are going to compare that, let's see.....$6.00 per week, at 52 weeks per year....$312 per year - so at $150,000, that would equate to oh let's see.....480 years worth of uniforms for an employee at our company.    

My point was - Palin doesn't appear to think that rules that you and I have to follow (including a budget) apply to her.  

    
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Avatar_f_tn
Oh MY!  Other candidates aren't subjected to attacks????  

Good Lord!  Obama is being compared to Osama Bin Laden!!  

Really????

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Avatar_m_tn
*** I want to make this perfectly clear once again, and I am sure that everyone will agree on this, if a person is truly physically or mentally unable to provide for themselves then is incumbent on all of us to provide for them.***

Now back to the debate.

I couldn’t have made the point any better myself.

The top 25% right now pay $4.31 of every $5 dollars the feds collect. Your rounding was to your favor, but that’s ok I’ll help with the math. That’s fair?

At poverty level there is a lot of tax help, such as earned income tax credits. So I am sure that the effective tax rate is much lower or nonexistent for many of these people. The figures that both you and I quoted were “gross adjusted income” meaning deductions that could be taken have been. The real tax rate for the top 5% is well over 30%, but nice try.

Something else to think about, I have worked with a lot of people that make less than $30,000 and according to statistics about 30% of them smoke. Do you realize that at 1 pack a day at $3 a pack they spend $1092 a year on cigarettes as well as the increased cost for medical care that smoking creates? That is more than the 3% income tax they may pay. I have also noticed, and I have no statistics for this but, many play the lottery, both numbers and scratch off, let be conservative here and say they only lose $5 a week on that,  another $260 that could go to support themselves.
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203342_tn?1328740807
Not in the media he isn't. It doesn't count what people may say on here or on the street. I'm talking about respectable (or supposed to be respectable) media.
Did you actually read what I posted? Where is Obama being mocked and insulted like Palin? Where is Biden being mocked and insulted? He's been caught lying more than once and NOTHING is said! How about the fact that he ate recently at a restaurant and talked to the patrons there but the restaurant has been closed for 10 years?!
Here ya go in case you missed that one:

Biden lied about Afghanistan funding and missed the mark by 2000%. Anyone going to mention that?

Remember in last night's debate (October 2) that Joe Biden said he recently had a meal and talked with patrons at Katie's restaurant on Union Street in Wilmington?
Well it turns out that there is no "Katie's" restaurant in Wilmington.

Now what if Gov. Palin had made a mistake like that?
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203342_tn?1328740807
That was for cowgirlnerd, by the way.
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Avatar_m_tn
You are right, $6 a week for work uniforms is what I pay too, but do you know what the press would do if she came out with a shirt that had a big patch saying "Sarah" on one side and "GOP" the other, lol.

I get your point but, if you need to look a certain way to present yourself for the job and the company buys you clothes to wear, not keep as yours, but to wear as work attire it is not taxable to you. That is common business knowledge and practice.
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152852_tn?1205717026
"...DO NOT think that is the American way!  Why should a rich person be penalized for his wealth?????"

Actually, this IS the American way.  You obviously didn't read the link I posted earlier in this thread explain that.

And I'm not part of the liberal left.  I'm a centrist and I have voted for Republican candidates.  I don't vote along a particular party line, I do my own research and choose the person I believe to be the best person for the job.

And a rich person is not being penalized.  Like I said, I'm a business owner and I will pay more taxes under Obama, but it won't kill me and my team of accountants will do a good job calculating my taxes--that's the advantage of having more money.  When you earn more, it may appear that you are expected to pay a higher percentage in taxes, but you can also afford to pay good accountants who know how to save you LOTS of money.  The people earning $30,000/year will likely be sitting at the kitchen table doing their taxes themselves and missing lots of ways to reduce the amount they have to pay--lots of legitimate write-offs to which they are entitled.  And as a business owner, I will also have other financial advantages (under Obama OR McCain)--to promote more growth and jobs.

While the figures on the charts, showing an average of what each of us will likely have to pay, may look unfair to some, you would likely be very surprised if you compare the percentages of taxes actually paid between the person sitting at the kitchen table trying to make heads or tails of it (and likely missing things they are entitled to write off) to someone whose CPAs have come up with pages of legitimate write-offs.

So, that's my perspective.  And I understand that if you've never been in that position--to have a team of accountants working on your taxes--you could not possibly know that.
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Avatar_f_tn
Good Point.  My argument is that when I was a Mortgage Banker - I was expected to buy my clothing myself - suits, shoes, etc., and I paid taxes on them - it came out of my net pay.  

She has the income of a Governor and is being backed by the Republican Party - I get that she, her husband, and her little baby, should look nice.  SHE should pay for them herself, and if she is going to donate them after the election - what is she going to wear then?  It's all just rediculus.  

I honestly got a laugh when I imagined her in a blue work shirt and pants that said "Sarah" on them.  That was too funny.  

Somehow - we have all gotten way off course in this little debate
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Avatar_m_tn
Just out of curiosity did you ever check to see if you only wore those clothes as a part of you work function if they were tax deductable? I bet they would have been, the tax code is so complex and so unfair, that is why I like the "Fair Tax" and I am writing my Senators and Congressmen to support it and get it passed.
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Avatar_f_tn
I could have deducted it, but I had to use it exclusively for work - couldn't wear it to church. At least that's what my accountant said.  

I like the Fair Tax, too.  

Now, I work as the Office Manager (banking, etc., isn't the most stable work these days!), and I can wear whatever I want - including golf shirt/khaki uniforms....  :)

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Avatar_m_tn
I am not a rich man, but I do ok. I have used fancy tax guys and found that good ol’ Turbo Tax works better at finding deductions for me. While I love math, I loathe accounting so doing taxes the old way is not a good option, but the tax programs are easy and readily available for everyone.  There are places around me that will let those that can afford a computer use one for free as well as the tax software.

I had a wise and well off guy once tell me that taxes are a way you are making money, lol. I agree, I don’t think though that just because someone has worked hard and done well that they should have their money taken from them, disproportionately, and given to those that don’t want to try as hard. At least not by the Gov't, many people that have money do what is right and give to charities that make a difference. Life is full of choices and some bad ones are hard to overcome and some can’t be fixed they must merely be endured. However, for most people if they want a better life it can be achieved.

I hate making this disclaimer each time, but I know what will be said if I don’t

*** I want to make this perfectly clear once again, and I am sure that everyone will agree on this, if a person is truly physically or mentally unable to provide for themselves then is incumbent on all of us to provide for them.***
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Avatar_m_tn
typo above, it should have been "I had a wise and well off guy once tell me that taxes are a way you can tell you are making money"
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165308_tn?1323190145
I agree with April about the Slander that Palin has to take....but HEAVEN FORBID anyone comments on Obama's affiliations and HIS LACK OF EXPERIENCE!  What is it? 142 days in congress????  WOW!!!

Kudos to Cindy McCain to be able to buy those clothes!!!  I think I sense a bit of jealously from some of the gals here!!!!

I guess the liberals cannot think of anything better to debate because they know that when it comes to important topics Obama loses every time.....the problem is, the media has brainwashed America into thinking that Obama is the Messiah and is untouchable..

My question again....

WHAT HAS OBAMA EVER DONE TO HELP AMERICA WHILE HE HAS BEEN A SENTATOR INSTEAD OF VOTING TO RAISE TAXES 94 TIMES, AND VOTING "PRESENT"  ON PRACTICALLY EVERY OTHER ISSUE???
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203342_tn?1328740807
Suzi, did you see that SNL? Were you as appalled as I was? The thing was I went along with the Tina Fey thing for awhile and actually did think she was quite funny but the way the slandered Todd Palin was beyond disgusting and unbelievable. I even thought the way the treated Sarah was distasteful and not the least bit funny but she held her ground and kept her composure. Kudos to her!
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152852_tn?1205717026
"I don’t think though that just because someone has worked hard and done well that they should have their money taken from them, disproportionately, and given to those that don’t want to try as hard."

Well, the point I was trying to make is that it's not likely all that disproportionate (or at least not as disproportionate as many people would think).  I think you'd be surprised if you compared the average percentage of taxes actually paid by lower-income people (who miss deductions) with the percentage of taxes actually paid by higher-income people (who get more deductions than you would expect).  There is probably not that big of a difference in the percentages.
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Avatar_f_tn
there is a difference in percentages.  tax brackets! as you make more money a larger percentage of your money goes to taxes.  
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198506_tn?1251160515
My husband makes a good living (he is not a business owner and does not get to take business deductions).  As he earns more the deductions he is allowed to take decrease.  Last year the percentage he paid in taxes was 35%.    
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152852_tn?1205717026
The percentage owed for a tax bracket and percentage actually paid isn't necessarily the same, alikat--the percentage owed decreases when you have tax accountants who know every law and every possible write-off to help you decrease the amount owed.  The final percentage paid for many higher-income bracket earners is a lower percentage than the initial percentage calculated strictly based on your income.

While we pay a lot in taxes, we also never even see the vast majority of the "income"--most of the "income" listed on our tax return already went right back into the business to develop new products, hire more people, and pay for excellent health, vision, dental, short- and long-term disability insurances for our employees and their families.  But we still pay taxes on the entire amount listed.

Should we feel bitter and angry about this--should we perceive it as being "unfair"?  Because we don't--not at all.  We feel very blessed--very fortunate to be able to be in a position to be able to "spread the wealth".  I feel very grateful and thank God every day.  No way would I ever complain about any of it.
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165308_tn?1323190145
April,

No, I did not see it, but I have heard.  Figures, all media including the actors' guild etc are soooo far left that they lose all grounds of decency.....don't worry, Republicans can take it....but, we wouldn't dare do that to the liberals because they will cry NOT FAIR!!!
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Avatar_f_tn
i need your accountants then, because our deductions don't really reduce our tax bill by all that much, and my husband is an accountant.  i'm going to get after him later and tell him he needs to be searching a little bit more.
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Avatar_f_tn
i do not in any way feel grateful to "spread the wealth".  yes, "some" people truly need assistance, but there are plenty who choose not to carry themselves, for whatever reason.  i went to college, to law school.  i am still paying for it.  my husband went to school.  we worked hard, we ate ramen noodles many many nights. and now that we have found a comfortable standard of living, i feel no responsibility to spread what i have spent years working for around to everyone else.  
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165308_tn?1323190145
It is wonderful that there are people in the position that they are so happy to spread their wealth...Kudos to all who feel this way!

However, I don't...First reason is because, although I make a decent salary, after my mortgage (yes, not a subprime one!) house bills and, OH YES!  the TAXES!!!!! I don't have much left to s p r e a d!!!!  I have charities that I support and give what I can.  So I spread my "wealth" to where I want it to go...not where the government decides it to.
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198506_tn?1251160515
I would like to know where you get your figures.  I have no idea what other people make or what percentage they pay in taxes I can only tell you what we paid and that was using TurboTax which should employ all deductions that are legal and legitimate.  Don't you see any irony at all in your use of a "team" of accounts employed for the sole purpose of protecting your "wealth" while you espouse the virtues of "spreading the wealth".  I guess that position is easier to swallow when it's other people's wealth.  
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165308_tn?1323190145
By the way...while the McCain campaign spent 150,000 on clothes (which, the media doesn't report about the auction), Obama has spend $400,000 on FOOD!

What is he going to do, regurgitate it and then give it to the poor to eat?  

Also, just more on the tax system:  McCain promises tax cuts for EVERYONE.  Obama promises to NOT raise taxes (not cut them) and to raise them on the top 5%.

Then, take THAT money and give it to the bottom 45% who DON'T pay any taxes.  DISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH!!!  Of course the poorer members of society are going to get a CHECK for doing NOTHING!!!  If I was in that category, I would vote for Obama, too!

As for National Security, Obama's running mate, Biden even agrees that the other countries will be "testing" him...which is a way to say he is viewed as, to quote Hillary Clinton, "an unqualified, pathetically weak" candidate.

I AM STILL WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO TELL ME ONE THING OBAMA HAS DONE AS A SENATOR!!!!!!!!
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203342_tn?1328740807
You know we don't HAVE to just vote for McCain or Obama. There's always the independent vote. Anybody for Ralph Nader?
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Avatar_f_tn
#1)  SPRINGFIELD, Illinois (AP) -- Barack Obama can honestly claim to have made a difference on a matter of life and death.

While an Illinois state senator, Obama was key in getting the state's notorious death penalty laws changed, including a requirement that in most cases police interrogations involving capital crimes must be recorded.

The changes enacted in 2003 reformed a system that had sent 13 people to death row, only to have them released because they were later determine to be innocent or had been convicted using improper methods.

"Without Barack's energy, imagination and commitment I do not believe the very substantial and meaningful reforms that became law in Illinois would have taken place," said author Scott Turow, a member of the state commission that recommended many of the changes.

Obama often cites his role in Illinois' death penalty debate as evidence that he can resolve thorny issues through compromise.

"We brought police officers and civil rights advocates together to reform a death penalty system that had sent 13 innocent men to death row," he declare in a recent presidential debate.

Enactment of the 2003 law was a huge political achievement in a state that had been deeply divided over problems with capital punishment.

Obama was at the center of the emotional debate.

#2) Obama also sponsored a Senate amendment to the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) to provide one year of job protection for family members caring for soldiers with combat-related injuries. After passing both houses of Congress with bipartisan majorities, SCHIP was vetoed by President Bush in early October 2007, a move Obama said "shows a callousness of priorities that is offensive to the ideals we hold as Americans."

#3) Obama Passed Illinois State Gift Ban Act "Heralded As the Most Sweeping Good--Government Legislation in Decades." In 1998, Obama passed the Illinois Gift Ban, which prohibited legislators, state officers and employees, and judges from soliciting or receiving gifts from a person or entity with interests affected by government. The Chicago Tribune called it wrote, "an ethics and campaign finance package heralded as the most sweeping good--government legislation in decades." The law also required greater campaign finance disclosure and limited the uses for which raised money could be spent. [HB672, 3R P 52--4--1, 5/22/98; PA 90--0737, 8/12/98; Chicago Tribune, 8/13/98; Chicago Independent Bulletin, 6/4/98]

want more?  

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203342_tn?1328740807
What? Nobody's going to vote for Nader? lol
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Avatar_f_tn
I was answering your call for one thing he has done.

It's frustrating isn't it !?  I have asked and asked what McCain has done other than his military experience and I STILL haven't gotten an answer!  

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606078_tn?1247268153
I tink IMO that Barrach Obama is responsible for bringing hope back to the USA. It has been very difficult to hope in the last 8 years, and it will be a better than good move to have Obama as our next president.When I hear Obama speak, I don't see the color of the man, I hear the conviction in his voice. He understands people and their dreams to have a better life. My husband and I are also in the high tax bracket, and we will pay more taxes, so be it.I was as poor as a church mouse as I was growing up and I was determined to work and to have that of which I saw other kids have.
    If by paying higher taxes will help put a smile on a kids face that's fine with me. We all need to remember that we could lose everything we worked hard for at the blink of an eye.Like I said in an earlier post, I was a life long repulican but I voted a straight democratic ticket this year,, and I feel great!!
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Avatar_f_tn
And, as far as slander -

Lie:
Barack Obama is a Muslim.

Truth:
Senator Obama has never been a Muslim, was not raised as a Muslim, and is a committed Christian. Further, this myth perpetuates unfortunate falsehoods about the Muslim-American community that are offensive to people of all faiths.

****************

The Truth About Barack’s Love for Flag and Country

Barack Obama’s grandfather, a WWII veteran, taught Barack the Pledge of Allegiance when he was a little boy and helped inspire his love for America. But that hasn’t stopped smear pushers from claiming he’s not a patriot.

Fortunately, fraudulent emails pretending Barack won’t say the Pledge or put his hand over his heart are easily refuted by a video of Barack doing precisely that on the floor of the United States Senate.

If you don't believe it - look at this video.  http://my.barackobama.com/patriot

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203342_tn?1328740807
Yikes, you all are scaring me. I'm not saying Obama IS the anti-christ but isn't it interesting how the Bible says the anti-christ will bring a false HOPE and a false peace. You all act like this man is God or something. Is there NOTHING wrong with this man? It seems he can do no wrong in your eyes. At least I said I could see the mudslinging from both sides and that they both have lied, etc. They both want to get into office. They're going to tell you whatever they think we want to hear.
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Avatar_f_tn
AMEN!    BRAVO!  WELL PHRASED!

LOVE IT!



Racheal
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Avatar_f_tn
It's not that he is perfect in ANY aspect.  It's that we are having to defend this man who HAS accomplished things, HAS given hope to us, and who IS qualified.  Most of us, I would say, feel the same about the McCain/Palin responses.  

I think if we are given hope after what the last 8 years have given us - it's a very positive thing.  

Trust me, I have heard that time and again about the anti-christ, etc., and grew up in the Bible belt - trust me, I have heard it all.   I don't worship anyone or anything - except God, the Trinity.  

Yes, it's an interesting concept, and I think we all have the right to use our brains and think about issues.  I agree - it's interesting.  Don't agree, but it's interesting.  
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Good, I'm glad you realize he's just a man! You had me worried there for a little bit, lol. You know what happens when you put someone on a pedestal. They topple of, of course. I just want everyone to not pin all their hopes on one man. No man is THAT good!
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I am the one that called Obama  "Osama" and I don't care what any of you think that didn't like it.   I don't like him, don't trust him, he will ruin our country...It's so nice that angiesmom and cowgirlnerd have studied so much about him, they seem to know everything about him and the rest of us are all wrong or just a racist...WHATEVER!!  I wish all I had to do was look into Obama's yes OSAMAS background and believe everything that I read (as long as it's the good stuff) for he has only done great things..HAHAHAHAHAH  oh yes, what has he done since he has been a senator? ummmmmmm..............nothing, notta...but that is never mentioned by some people..
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We hire an accounting firm--so they work as a "team of accountants".

My whole point is that people who can afford to do it, hire people who know how to minimize the seemingly "disproportionate" tax percentages.  That is why there is not a flat rate across the board--if Bill Gates had to pay the same percentage as someone earning $20,000, he'd actually end up paying a much LOWER percentage than that person because his accountants would know about write-offs the guy earning $20K never heard of--and write-offs that don't even apply to him.  The percentages seem disproportionate for that reason.  It's not about "where I get my figures"--it's just simple accounting.

I could sit around boo-hooing about how unfair it is that my husband and I have invested all of our retirement money and savings, cashed in the few stocks we had, and second mortgaged our home to start this business; I could cry about how unfair it is that my husband and I work very hard and very long hours to grow this business while many others at our company are paid more than the two of us combined.  I could whine about how I shouldn't have to pay taxes on money I never see.

But the point of my going on about all this is that I choose not to look at things from that perspective.  I choose to focus on the good.  I feel very blessed.  There are A LOT of REALLY hard-working Americans who have been laid off because of the economy and who cannot find another job.  There are ones who work long, hard hours for low pay and they don't have health insurance (I've been there).  And these hardworking people hardly see their kids.  And if they need help, I'm ok with that.  Obviously many people are not.  And that's ok--you're entitled to feel that way.  Maybe it's just the Christian in me--I often think, "What Would Jesus Do?" and the answer is very clear to me.
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Presidents and presidential candidates that the Religious "Right" have sworn were the
anti-christ in my life time;

Jimmy Carter
Gerald Ford
Walter Mondale
Michael Dukakis
Bob Dole
Bill Clinton
Al Gore

So, it seems that every four years we have an election.

And every four years the Religious "Right" swears that the democratic candidate is the anti-christ.

So I'm curious;

Which one of these men is the real anti-christ?

Is it just a matter of convenience for you?

I'd be willing to bet that if I went back before my life time, the the R.R. claimed that the democratic candidates post Jimmy Carter were all "Anti-Christs" as well. Adele Stevenson, Hubert Humphrey,  John Kennedy...

So.

Which one is the true Anti-Christ?

We'd like him to please step forward.


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Oh, the final word on who balanced the budget by 2,000.

From the White House itself.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/presidents/bc42.html
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Agiesmom...it's quite obvious that you have a very high opinion of yourself.  Good for you.  What you are saying about percentages makes no sense to me but then again, as I said before I can only speak for my own family and I know we pay a higher percentage (quite a bit higher) of our income then those making less.  We do feel blessed to be in the position we are in and we don't whine about paying taxes.  However, I would not be thrilled to be paying even more taxes.  I would much rather decide which charities deserve my help.  I also come from humble beginnings and we have also made many and still make many sacrifices to have what we have.  The great thing about the country is hard work and drive can pay off even when you have humble beginnings and obstacles to overcome.  Now perhaps what you are saying is that people of wealth and particularly people who own businesses can tweak the system such that they can "get around" certain rules and regulations to make the "tax laws" work for them.  Perhaps claiming personal expenses as business expenses and such.  In that case I guess you can lower your tax burden.  We choose not to do that.  It's unethical.  And I have faith that many others also feel that way.  On this point I agree to disagree with you.  Have a good day.  
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There's really no need to resort to insults.

I really can't understand what it is you don't get about this to be honest.  And it has nothing to do with "tweaking" anything or claiming things you should not claim or doing anything unethical.  The fact that you inquired about such things shows you truly don't understand.

If H&R Block or TurboTax would work for Bill Gates (deduct all that he's entitled to deduct), why don't you think he uses either of those?  Do you really not understand that if you hire a tax specialist who keeps up with ever changing personal and corporate tax laws and is familiar with all IRS forms (and there are a ton of them) that you may be more likely get most of the deductions to which you are legally entitled?  And someone who works at a retail store may not claim the basic deductions to which he is entitled?

Let's use Sarah Palin as an example.  I'm sure she didn't do anything unethical with her taxes, aren't you?  So let's assume that is the case.  After all their deductions, they ultimately paid 15% in taxes in 2007 and LESS THAN 10% in taxes in 2006.  Do you think H&R Block did the Palin's taxes?  Or that she and Todd sat at the computer and did them together on TurboTax?

Now, I happen to think this is extreme, but most people claim the Palin's deductions were totally legitimate and "...Robert Cross, first vice president of the National Society of Accountants, said the Palin business deductions were "typical middle America, John and Jane Plain"..."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/10/03/politics/p134453D44.DTL

We are all entitled to the same deductions, if we qualify for them.  Whether or not we actually take them is another story.  TurboTax may not ask you how much money you spent in gas at snowmobile competitions, but a tax accountant may.

Am I explaining it any better?
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Well due to my disability which I pay medicare insurance for my little income is dropped $3000 with no meds allowed on it. I am taxed on my gross. I have to add it as taxable income with my husband. When a person is disabled they have drs,meds,drs,meds,meds and more meds and more drs,and medical proceedures. Cash does have to be paid, transportation provided. Some drs don't take medicare, so most of the time my insurance through my husband will take care of a big part.My last proceedure I had to pay $300. Dosen't sound like much, but with everything else, it adds up. I paid money into that system for years and years, so I don't consider it a hand out. Our house is paid for from money my mother left me. We can pay utilities, even carry cable for enjoyment. My husband's paycheck has health care deducted before taxes, but pays taxes on his gross not net, so health care is added back in at the end of the year. Obama says McCain will tax heath care for the first time in history. I don't know where he gets that because it already is.The house makes the decision on all the regulations of this country and they are democrat. So, the President is Republican and gets the blame for eveything the country thinks it wrong. Spreading the wealth is Socialism, no matter what. Those of us Babyboomers are old enough to remember what it was like in countrys that the government decided everything for the people, the ethnic cleansing, done without mercy in countries. So we think the government is going to take care of us! what a laugh. Do you realize that the Federal Agents that protect the office of the president have very thorogh background checks, including every friend, associates, anything in their life that they were a part of. They talk to the people and check them out to make sure our president is safe. Do you know that Obama's friends and associates would cause him not to qualify for that position. He can be in the highest office of the country, yet not qualify to protect himself. Very sad. If you don't think it is true go to the FBI Agents and check it out. My question is didn't they do a background check on this man, or did they sweep it under the rug. It has nothing to do with skin color, it has to do with his background, that was ignored.It doesn't matter if he knew about them, it matters he associated with them. The agents had to qualify, why didn't a man running to lead this country? The media, I am sick of. Sarah Palin has been drawn naked by placing her face on another body and put up in a beer joint, her clothes are a subject (you think she should have worn her hunting clothes on the campaigns? to criticism. McCain's wife can wear what she wants she owns her business and spent years helping the needy. Who really cares about what anybody wears. Palin wants to serve her country and she is not dumb. I'd like to receive a check because of money saved like Alaska, wouldn't you? The media is in the gutter. They have taken an election that is their job to report what they know, not pick and choose who they want to win by trashing candidates and praising another putting up an image that He is The One. He is not God. Jesus is God in the Flesh, so that spot has been taken, though I have heard him called Messiah. So do we want to keep America or give away our freedoms?
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Amen! you are soooooo right!  It's so nice to see a response from someone that isn't an Obama-bot...
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Oh, dear.

Surely you know, RJ233, that Michael Savage says crazy things for ratings, right?  Like when he said that autism isn't real and those kids are really just brats?  He's a commentator who expresses his opinions.  You don't really view him as a legitimate news source, do you?  If he sat at the microphone and calmly reported facts, he wouldn't last long in the industry--you and the rest of his audience wouldn't listen to him if he did that.  

I could wonder whether or not McCain and even Bush would pass (not sure if you can pass with PTSD or a DUI on your record or if those things in conjunction with something else currently unknown would be a problem), but if I were to express my thoughts on that, it would just be opinion and speculation.

Regarding "handouts", the entire point of paying into a system is so there is something in place to help those--perhaps YOU or your family members--one day if/when you need it.  My mother was on disability (after working hard for 45 years of her life), my friend was on Medicaid before she died of the complications of diabetes at age 26 (she, unfortunately, didn't have many years to "pay into the system" before she died), my other friend had food stamps and help paying her utilities for a while after her husband was laid off from his job (that he had for 23 years).

Do some people abuse these programs?  Of course--you really can't completely prevent that.  Do some people draw more than they paid into it, like my friend?  Yes.  And others pay into it and are fortunate enough to never need it or only need it briefly.  But the programs are necessary to help those in need, like you.

I would think everyone would be grateful that there ARE government programs--no matter how convinced you are at this moment that you or your loved ones would never need them and can't understand why you have to pay money for them--because, especially in today's economy, there are a lot of hard-working Americans who never dreamed in a million years that they would lose their homes or jobs and have to file for bankruptcy and be in need of help.

Regarding the House having a Democrat majority, do you really understand how it works?  You need a supermajority (2/3) to make something veto-proof.  So George Bush does hold the power and the responsibility to a great extent.  It can't be pinned on the Democrats (like Savage, et al., may like you to think).  If something the president doesn't like is presented simply as a majority, he can veto it.  If he wants Congress to pass something, he makes a speech about how it has to happen now and then warns the Congress that "the world is watching".  Under pressure, they try to pass something reasonable, with stipulations or conditions or limits.  But, again, if the president doesn't like those stipulations, he just vetoes it and tells them to come up with something he likes better.  Then you have the pocket veto and filibuster (for which you need a 3/5 majority to end).  But I'll just leave it at that--I just wanted to let you know that it's not as cut and dry as Michael Savage may want you to think.  The system isn’t that easily manipulated.

Michael Savage’s job is to try to incite you.  It's much more interesting to listen to someone rant and point the finger at a particular group and blame them for all the wrongs in the world (and it does happen on both sides), but usually the truth is somewhere in the middle and total responsibility is never on one group.

And regarding Obama comparing himself to Jesus or thinking he's God, I'm wondering where people get that ridiculous accusation.  Savage again?  Hannity perhaps?  I'd like a link to a quote he made saying that because I can't find one, or any reference to one, anywhere.
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Well, it's not from Savage or Hannity - it's from politifact. They have found false statements with Obama and McCain and they appear to have done some research on this security clearance rumor that's been circulating in emails.

"If Barack Obama would apply for a job with the FBI or with the Secret Service, he would be disqualified because of his past associations with William Ayers."

"There is nowhere on the form that Obama's relationship to Ayers as it exists or existed would even come up," said Mark Zaid, a Washington attorney who specializes in security-clearance work. "It would never come up unless somebody mentioned it during a background investigation."

Moreover, even if it did come up, there's no reason to believe it would impede Obama's hiring, Zaid said. "Given what has been said publicly about their relationship, I can't fathom that it would ever get more than a moment's attention," he said.

A second lawyer specializing in security clearances, Elizabeth Newman of the Washington, D.C., firm Kalijarvi, Chuzi & Newman, concurred that the Ayers connection would pose no problem for Obama, even if it did come to the attention of the investigators.

"They would care if there was a recent relationship with someone who is currently on trial or currently considered to be advocating violent overthrow of the government," she said. "But not something that was 20 or 30 years ago."

A third security-clearance lawyer, Mark Riley of Odenton, Md., who is also a retired Army intelligence officer, was slightly less dismissive of the Ayers issue, saying it was "something they would investigate."

But Riley leaned toward the conclusion that the Ayers connection would not cost Obama a security clearance. "The issue is what is Obama's relationship with him in his adult life," Riley said. "If he didn't have one, other than they sat on a board and maybe had the same political causes, that's not enough to deny a fellow a clearance."

So all three of the attorneys we contacted agreed unequivocally that Obama's relationship with Ayers would not be an automatic disqualifier, as the claim suggests.

In fact, Zaid said someone with Obama's record – a law degree from Harvard, teaching experience at the University of Chicago Law School – would be an excellent candidate.

"The agencies would be fighting over him," Zaid said. "As an outright claim, this statement is false."

We agree. It's False.
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Forgot to address something really important:

Something is seriously wrong if you are paying taxes on the pre-tax amount deducted for your healthcare premium contributions for your health insurance.  The pre-tax premium contribution amount is deducted before your pay is processed (taxes deducted).  At the end of the year, your premium amounts should not be included (or added back onto) the income stated on your W-2.  The amount on your W-2 should be the amount processed as pay AFTER the pre-tax amounts were deducted.  If the amount on your W-2 is your total annual income BEFORE your pre-tax contributions were deducted, then your employer made a mistake.  That said, if you do the pre-tax contribution, you can not also deduct for healthcare premiums on your tax return as well.  It's one or the other.  You may want to talk to your husband's HR Director to find out if there was a mistake made along the way or to verify that there was not and you were just misunderstanding what was happening.

McCain wants to tax you on your employer benefits.  So, if you receive benefits from your employer that total $1000/month in premiums, he wants that to be considered income for you.  He wants you to pay Federal income tax on that (but not Social Security and Medicare taxes)--even if your employer pays all your premiums for you.  It's the VALUE of the plans that he wants to be viewed as income for Federal tax purposes.  So THIS is where the "taxing health benefits for the first time in history" comes into play for McCain's plan.

McCain also wants to allow the sale and purchase of insurance across state lines. He wants no federal standards to be imposed and insurance companies would not be required to cover preexisting conditions.  That really could be a problem for you and anyone else with health issues.

Just some things to consider.
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Obama's site where if one wanted to get access as to where his funding is coming from, via a hacker or whichever...is NOW LOCKED. Just shows he is hiding all of his past from us. He can say what he wishes to all, but it is ILLEGAL for him to do this. Why isn't the government going after him for this? McCain has nothing to hide. I don't get it.

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suzy-q...

Obama has done absolutely nothing. A couple of awards, some community leadership role. That's it. There is the qualified candidate that folks want to sit in the white house during a worldwide crisis, and 2 wars...in which Obama DID contribute money to ACORN...The sum of 180,000 dollars if i am correct. Ya think Acorn wants Obama to win? I smell voter fraud all over Obama and Acorn...and if the government doesn't do anything now?..guess what..if Obama is elected....."Too Bad" Oh well it's not their problem.
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Snoozies, please post a link to a credible website verifying your claims.  Thanks.
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My information about things is not from a late night program. The disability and taxation is what is in our tax booklet and on the back of the Disability Statement that I get and the paper that comes with it. All the deductions you have talked about, you have to have something to deduct, such as interest, etc. If it doesn't add up to more than the allowed deduction on the regular form then you have to use the regular form. If there is something different then it is not on the form. As a matter of fact we did not include an insurance income for disability and 4 yrs later had to pay the fed & state.

I have listened to the debates and watched the candidates speak. I have listened to different stations on the tv, to get an overall look of what is going on. I have spent time researching on the computer. So my views are what I have seen and heard from all sources. I don't believe every station or one speaker on some show or tv late night show. I don't even watch late night shows. I want to decide for my self who I think is going to make a good leader for our country when I vote, by listening to the candidates, not opinions. So I have no idea what you are talking about with the late night show and who I listen to. I think the candidates speak for themselves. The tax on the employers participation, I have never said anything but Obama said McCain would tax our insurance premiums. I never heard him say a word about the employer's participation and I have listen to Obama a lot. I am repeating what he has said over and over. I have heard him say he would make businesses carry insurance on employees, which will shut down small businesses. Small business make over $250,000. They pay a lot out of it, but as far as what they bring in can be a lot over that. I know a business that has 2 employees that gross $ 500,000. But, after paying for the lumber, etc, to build and his employers, gas and tools, he doesn't clear that. He only has 2 employees. What do you think higher taxes, and paying health insurance is going to do to his business. This is facts not some tv lie.

The qualifications of the FBI Agents are tight for a reason. I looked it up on the FBI site on my own out of curiosity. If it is that tight for a person trusted to protect our president, then it should certainly be the same for the person selected to protect our country. If past presidents didn't qualify then why wasn't it told. The Commander in Chief of our Armed Forces is of great priority. If every thing about Obama's associations were even partially true, do you think his influence by those people in the least, is going to affect us, or are you willing to put him in a powerful seat to see if he will? I'm not willing to put the fate of this country in the hands of someone I can't trust. I looked at Obama's record of the Senate. He had more presents than any votes. I listened to him say when they wanted to do something to bail out, help, or whatever to solve the crisis the whole country was in, "I'm staying on the campaign. If they need me they will call me." John McCain dropped everything to do his job. They are both Senators and get paid for doing their job as Senators. If he were the Senator of my state and felt his own future was more important than the people of his state and this country I would never vote for him again. His oath for his state was put behind his wants and needs. When the president has to send for him to get him there and he is suppose to be there to start with, something is just not kosher. Then, because McCain put his duty first (to be what he was elected for in his state), he was made out to be a bad person. Now what is wrong with that picture. He did what he was suppose to do, he took an oath and stood by it. Frankly, I was shocked by Obama's response.

The loss of homes came from banks that made bad loans. I worked in lending for years and years. Verification of income was not even required on those loans. People lie, I know. I never made a loan with out checking the qualifications of a borrower. We had to qualify to buy our house, and I'm sure you did too. The people that approved those loans, were unethical. When I was in lending, a copy of a situation with another company that had been sued on several counts for the same thing was sent to all of our offices. That company was making mortgages for people that clearly did not have the income to pay. When they got behind, they would repo and sell the house making a large profit. There are state and federal laws that lenders abide by. The state has auditors that check open and paid loans and they don't just look at the disclosures and charges, they have calculators in hand, going through with a fine tooth comb. If you were found at fault of deliberately abusing a borrower, and it was a patten, you could be shut down, period. Company's buy and sell all the time. So, making the headlines for that is stupid. The bad paper, the banks could have saved a lot of the loans by going from a variable rate that had topped, increasing the payments so they were not able to be paid, to a low fixed rate, even a longer term and reduced those payments, making them affordable. People get behind all the time and lenders know how to help them, unless they made a loan that the person could never have paid, in which they should have paid fines over. I sent loans through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. They cut a little slack in credit history, but not enough to have an effect. So, they dropped the bucket and knew exactly what they were doing. The people responsible should have had every asset they had taken from them,sold, putting that money right back in the company, and put in jail. The law says ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law. So, people, even employees that took part in that with their signature of approval is just as responsible. Creating a crisis is a diversion to panic the public and who ever sounds like they are going to solve that problem people will back. They don't even look at the picture. Faith in the government is only made by facts, not who sounds or looks the part. If we have a crisis of being threatened by other countries, we need someone that knows what they are doing. We have an important election here and the media has done this country a grave injustice by not sticking to facts that they have checked out to be the truth.
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That's ok angie, I am just stating the facts i know. Everyone has chosen to get "their" facts and that is fine. I do not wish to get into my links everyone else's links etc.
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I'm not sure how Medicaid deductions and taxes work, RJ--maybe there is some catch or something where that is concerned--but I can tell you for a fact that how I described pre-tax premium contributions above is how it works for an ordinary employee with ordinary healthcare coverage and pre-tax deductions.  I know this because this is how we do it at our company.

And, like I said, if you have benefits through an employer that cost your employer $1000/month, you will be taxed on that amount as income under John McCain.  I'm surprised anyone would be ok with that--especially McCain supporters.

Here's info on McCain's plan and what the $5000 credit would really mean to workers and employers alike:
http://www.factcheck.org/mccains_5000_promise.html

The report mikesimon posted above (in case you didn't read it):
http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/800/

A couple of more links to pages refuting false claims against Obama's tax plan:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/right_change_is_wrong.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/spread_the_tax_hooey.html

The whole "suspending the campaign" was just weird.  And totally unnecessary.  A president should be able to handle more than one crisis at a time.  McCain was very dramatic, extreme, and weird.  I'm thinking his fans are the only ones who were impressed by that.
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The simple fact is that there ARE no links to verify what you say because it’s not true.

What you are doing is posting flat out lies as facts without proof.  That's irresponsible and morally unconscionable.  I don't like McCain, but I would never post ridiculous lies about him.
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Thank goodness the only sites I used was the FBI and the Gov. to see the records of Senators and any other info I wanted to see. I went to Palins Official Website and started reading and something just wasn't reading right. I went back to the top and it said "spoof" in little bitty letters. Many never even knew it was a spoof. They were telling her how they supported her-----. Then, there was a comment against her, and they asked them if they didn't like her why were they on the site. That is how believable those sites can be.They even had a big picture of her at the top of the site, so normally you would not know it wasn't real. Is it because she is a woman that they have done every dirty thing they can to her? I'd like to see a picture of the other vice president running, in a bar naked. Think that would stir up trouble? If the guy was going to paint one, he should have been fair and painted the other. If it had been me, if I had to fly to get there I would have and went in there and took it out after giving the owner a slap in his face. That is why I'm not in public office. As a woman, I find it sick. Pictures from behind, of her legs. Why don't they just tar and feather her? All women should have their voices heard about that. What happens if there is another woman running for the same position next time? They treated Hillary bad. I think they need to be put in their place.

As women, few have said anything about it. We had to fight to vote, now we have to fight to have respect from the public news? ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN and the rest of the large networks ought to be ashamed. It is not a matter of the party she is in. I haven't seen naked pictures of any of the men hanging in a bar, have you? It really makes me angry. If they don't like what she stands for, fine, but her body, her baby, her family!! No woman will ever want to be in politics if they are going to be treated like that, and it needs to stop!! Women have just as many rights to be protected as any man. It is not just a matter of fair, it is a matter of respect. It is not ok to belittle a female and treat her like trash, and laugh, especially across the nation. We have daughters that see this, and young men. What is that going to do to our daughters! When a man abuses them, they will think they are suppose to be treated that way. The guys will think it is OK to disrespect and mistreat females after laughing with the rest of the males. It has been accepted across the nation. It is NOT OK, for any reason. They were even ugly to John McCain's wife. Yet nobody has raised the roof about it. For women that is not a good sign. Hillary is not in the final running, so they didn't get a chance to get down and dirty with her. They are all woman. They are putting women back a hundred years, actually we had more respect a hundred years ago.

It was interesting to see that some how something is going on with the FBI qualifications. I went to the website of the FBI just to see what they were of my own curiosity. Just because I thought of it, doesn't mean I can't think for myself.

Were do you people get all this stuff from, it is no wonder people think every body is fabricating information. If you know what whoever or whatever you figured I got my info from, of which I still don't know who or what it was suppose to be, then you must have spent your time listening, watching, or reading it. If you think it is all lies, why would you waste your time on it?  Glad I missed it. Ranting and raving on programs will never accomplish anything. There used to be a saying,"Don't believe anything you hear and 1/2 of what you see". If you search for the truth long enough, you will find it. This is an election, not a war. We ARE the people. We have to "know" what the person taking office is going to do. Politicians lie. They always have and always will. It is up to us to dig, and dig. Forget ranting people trying to make you believe something. Our children and grandchildren are at stake. Their freedom and happiness. United we stand, Divided we fall. We owe it to them and to this country to seek and find. It is not the face of the president we elect that is important. Like John Kennedy said, "It is not what your country can do for you, It is what you can do for your country".

I agree that someone running for president should have any information available to the public that is suppose to be. Citizens have every right to know exactly what that person is. If they have closed info that we are entitled to know, then, I would find other ways to search records: Senate, State, Local Government, or what ever means available that I knew would give me the truth. It is not wrong to want to know the truth, it is wrong to hide it.

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You are correct, i am posting flat out lies about it all. did you miss the part where i said i didn't wish to post tons of links? All that does is start a whirlwind of total differences that go back and forth and the conclusion ends up oe remains with their own beliefs. I have links ..plenty...if you wish to research them alll ..hey by all means go for it. I will not sit and argue with ANYONE that is always correct. You think i have not done my research? I have my son in the military, my husband who as of late is without work as the housing industry is down the tubes. and my own health problems. I've researched all that i need 2 believe me. Sorry but i will NOT post links and links ..to get myself riled or anyone else. Simple truths have helped me with my vote. Yes you as well have not got ALL the facts straight, good luck if obama wins..there goes our right to bear arms, radio broadcasting and more Thanx for the insult.
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Now Obama has cut off a TV station who asks about his connection with Marx. Also his website where you can give donations...accepts every donation with a credit card, that is NOT scrutinized as to who the card actually belongs 2. McCains' checks the viability of all it's webstre donations. The cut of of thee interview? Straight from the mouth of the interviewer of that station in Fla.. What does Obama want to keep hiding? The credit card varification....on alll News stations. If you shut out everyone who asks pertinent questions..how is that good for people to make a decision on who to vote for? These are fair questions.  Obama refuses to answer anything!. Biden as well skirted questions..Couldnt he have said ..who said that? They "choose" to not answer..in other words...nunya bus.
We may have a nunya bus president..
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snoozies, I've done in depth searches and I cannot find one website, credible or not, to support anything you say.  I can see where saying you just don't want to post them is better than just admitting the truth--that you don't have any--or posting links to websites of nutty bloggers who listen to Sean Hannity.  But hey...whatever works for you.
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Naa Again you twist words..ya read that wrong 2?...I CHOOSE not to get into a rediculous argument over this... Can ya get that? Go on ahead and post away...whatever works for you.

Rest on your own laurels carry on.. someone else can reply.
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Rj233, A hundred years ago?
Women may have had more respect 100 years ago (depending on your definition of "respect") but women didn't have the right to vote. I call that a serious lack of respect but - that's just my opinion.
Women got the right to vote in 1920. Some states afforded the right earlier but it was not constitutionally mandated until 1920.

snoozies
When you make a credit card donation to Obama you are required to provide:
                          your name
                          your address
                          your employer
                          your job
                          the name on your credit card
                          the credit card number
                          the expiration date on the card
                          the 3 digit security number (I am not certain of this but I think so)
                  
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What i mean is other folks are using other peoples credit cards mikei. They are finding  donations that cannot be tracked back to an employer...or job. That is not listed on the credit card.
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This really bothers me and I think every American would be concerned about this.

Rachel Maddow Show On Palin And The Alaskan Secessionists

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkS9QZj5W6g&feature=related
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I haven't seen that issue addressed anywhere. I'll look around.

I didn't mean to suggest that the job and the employer are relevant to the credit card. They are relevant to identification of the donor however. I also think that would constitute scrutiny "as to who the card actually belongs to" similar to what any site requires when I use my credit card online.
I merely responded to your contention that:
"Also his website where you can give donations...accepts every donation with a credit card, that is NOT scrutinized as to who the card actually belongs".
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Wow - that was very interesting!  These are items that actually happened in the last few years!  Not 20-30 years ago!  I guess under previous implications of guilt by association - (Obama and Ayers), then that would make Palin - ......a Successionist?  ??

VERY GOOD POINT - Jade!  

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I also found this interesting, evidently McCain's army failed to find this bit of information, thank you Jade for sharing, my husband was livid after he watched it. That woman is the last person on this earth that is so unqualified to even think of running this Country. Can you imagine what the USA would be like if she had her way. Scares the hell out of me.
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I wonder if that information on her association with the individuals wanting to be independent from the US would keep her from getting security clearance???  hmmmm.....  :)      -  Isn't that kind of like - treason?  OH MY!!!!
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Bottom line people..............especially the Obama/Osama-bots...........if he gets in office then our country will go straight down the toilet, are you all blind and deaf?  Oh wait, that's right, you only believe what you want to, like bits and pieces of his terrible speaches, he is just a smooth talker that just wears a suit well, that's all...I hope you are ready for socialism, and may God be with us.  I pray that God helps the undecided make the right decision,   McCain !!
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I don't think it is fair to call Obama, "Osama". That is being blind... IMO. I also know that I didn't vote for Bush and I'm very proud of my voting record.

The fear of socialism in this country is crazy. IMO.
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I truly question whether some people know anything at all.
Why are we now heading towards socialism if Obama becomes president? It can't be because he wants to increase the tax rate on the wealthy because we have had a progressive income tax for quite a long time. It can't be because he foolishly said that "we should spread the wealth around because we have had socialistic programs for a long time - social security, medicare
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You are kidding. I never said when we got the vote. What difference would it make. It doesn't excuse anything.

And with this last comment, I leave this. These things aren't making any difference about anything. It IS okay to treat ALL women like they did Palin, and every body is wrong no matter what. You can't THINK for yourself because if you do, you HAD to have a source from somewhere that LIES. EVERYBODY knows it is a LIE, because they spent their TIME finding every LIE that could BE. And anything beyond that is a LIE. We can't find the truth because we all LIE, except the ones that KNOWS who is telling the LIE. How can anybody learn anything? We can't even swap info, because if it doesn't fit, it must be a LIE and they will BELIEVE the LIE. By the way I found one of the dissections between one of my comments, that was done. At the time I read the comment I had no idea you were cutting me up because I didn't know what you were talking about. I guess it goes with the comment we should expect at least as much from a president as an agent, huh. APPRECIATE IT GUYS.
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RJ233 said:

"And with this last comment, I leave this. These things aren't making any difference about anything. It IS okay to treat ALL women like they did Palin, and every body is wrong no matter what. "


I'm not sure what background you have or how you were raised, but NO one on this thread said anything about treating women bad. This election is driving people nuts, both sides. And why? Republicans are afraid that Obama is going to get into their pockets, and Democrats Know that we can not have another 4 years of the same. It bothers me a hell of a lot more to have my tax dollars sent to Iraq, than to have my tax dollars spent helping those who need help right here in the USA.
   This thread was desperatly needed, so that we all could actually see how the other feels. But the above post is really upsetting because some people are determined to come out the victor regardless of how much hurt they inflict on one another. Some people are going to be very worried, and the other side will be down right peed off on election day.
   Now I'm going to get back under my covers and hope this flare passes soon, Thank goodness I voted early, I might not have been able to on election day. Take care all.

                                                                               "OBAMA 08"
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Get off the race card,, getting very old..are you running his campaign or something?
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I think the race question is a legitimate question. We know that a few racists have been arrested already for plotting to kill Obama.
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Remembering when my son enlisted..right out of high school he left 5 days later for the military. Was my nose glued to the events in Iraq? Youuu betcha..Hussein was being funded by terroists....to keep his lil country and it's people under comunist law. Did the terroists just fly overhead and drop him little packages of warfare and ammunition? Iraq is the central catylist for the war in the middle east. A war of religion. Let's not kid ourselves..If the terroists are i the US....They are now and were then in Iraq. Hussein was working closely with Syria....where did the 14/15 semi- trucks we spotted leaving Iraq headed toward Syria ..dissapear to? What were they carrying? I don't have a doubt. As a mother of a veteran....I KNEW very well..what my son was headed for. so the terroists we NOT just sitting on Iraq's brorders. Iraq had already been infiltrated with the terroists...just waiting on "The Word". Well.. we gave them OUR word..before they had a chance.
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Oh and all those that think we went there for oil...well nix that idea... we would have had that by now. it was never about oil. It was about securing our freedoms and others..which meant to take out Hussein and his terroist backers..so we could have a stronghold...in the area that is the central catylist for the war on terror....and We DID it. Amen for the surge. 12 of the 18 provinces in Iraq are now prospering..
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDA9NbPAK8o

It doesn't matter if you are voting for McCain or Obama you need to follow the link I have posted above.  Message me if you like it.
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You can't see Pain in the "seat",,,well McCain will be in it most the time ok? Well I CANNOT see Obama/Osama in it...I'm entitled to my thoughts and opinion just as much as you.. I just don't think you really see what Obama will do to this country, and if he wins at least I won't be getting the blame.  I'm not insulting anyone, just trying to figure out why your opinion or anyone else's is ok but only if you are an obama lover.
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While Obama scares some it is interesting that military men who served with or have known John Sydney McCain find him a pretty scary prospect to be sitting in the Oval Office.

["He's going to be Bush on steroids," says Johns, the retired brigadier general who has known McCain since their days at the National War College. "His hawkish views now are very dangerous. He puts military at the top of foreign policy rather than diplomacy, just like George Bush does. He and other neoconservatives are dedicated to converting the world to democracy and free markets, and they want to do it through the barrel of a gun."]

[.....In fact, his wounds were attended to only after the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a Navy admiral. What has never been disclosed is the manner in which they found out: McCain told them. According to Dramesi, one of the few POWs who remained silent under years of torture, McCain tried to justify his behavior while they were still prisoners. "I had to tell them," he insisted to Dramesi, "or I would have died in bed."]

Dramesi says he has no desire to dishonor McCain's service, but he believes that celebrating the downed pilot's behavior as heroic — "he wasn't exceptional one way or the other" — has a corrosive effect on military discipline. "This business of my country before my life?" Dramesi says. "Well, he had that opportunity and failed miserably. If it really were country first, John McCain would probably be walking around without one or two arms or legs — or he'd be dead."

[Even those in the military who celebrate McCain's patriotism and sacrifice question why his POW experience has been elevated as his top qualification to be commander in chief. "It took guts to go through that and to come out reasonably intact and able to pick up the pieces of your life and move on," says Wilkerson, Colin Powell's former chief of staff, who has known McCain since the 1980s. "It is unquestionably a demonstration of the character of the man. But I don't think that it is a special qualification for being president of the United States. In some respects, I'm not sure that's the kind of character I want sitting in the Oval Office. I'm not sure that much time in a prisoner-of-war status doesn't do something to you. Doesn't do something to you psychologically, doesn't do something to you that might make you a little more volatile, a little less apt to listen to reason, a little more inclined to be volcanic in your temperament."]

[Dramesi, who went on to serve as chief war planner for U.S. Air Forces in Europe and commander of a wing of the Strategic Air Command, was not surprised. "McCain says his life changed while he was in Vietnam, and he is now a different man," Dramesi says today. "But he's still the undisciplined, spoiled brat that he was when he went in."]
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Obama is all about distribution of wealth.  It is coming out more and more....people are so blinded by Obama the "messiah" and if someone said he blew up America, people will still vote for him....

I just hope and pray people will come to their senses before next Tuesday.  Obama's plan is going to ruin our economy more than anything we have ever seen...Welcome back, Carter #2.....

JUST HANG ON TO YOUR PURSE STRINGS!
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What teko said.

Don't kid yourself, snoozies--wrongly assuming it wasn't about oil since they didn't go in and boldly take Iraq's oil while the world was watching does not negate the fact that we went there for reasons other than getting the terrorists who attacked us (since they were in AFGHANISTAN)--make no mistake about that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo

And don't be foolish, 2WB--Palin could very well be in the "seat".  John McCain's very first "test" to determine if he's fit to be president was to choose a running mate who was totally capable of being president from day one (no matter how likely YOU may think that is or not)..  He failed that test.  Badly.  He showed incredibly poor judgment.  While she may have temporarily gotten the base revitalized when it was almost dead, I think it hurt him more than it helped him--the help was short-term and now it's become a liability for him.  I know many Republicans who were voting for McCain until he chose Palin--most of them said they're staying home on Election Day.  That was a selfish POLITICAL decision--not a PRESIDENTIAL one.  There was no regard for our country when he made that decision.  Very poor judgment.

Thanks for your post, mikesimon--I've read quite a bit about military people supporting Obama.

Again, suzi, lucky you to have more than $250,000/year in your purse to worry about.  That said, what exactly do you think our entire tax system is about anyway?  Money is taken from all via taxes and redistributed--and that's how it's been all along.  You make no sense.
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No, you are wrong...not with the way Obama wants it done.  He wants to take from the rich (250,000+) and give to those who do NOT even pay into the tax system!  To some degree we have it now, (And I hate the way it is run now, also)  as you said, but not to the extreme as Obama wants it.  Obama wants to PENALIZE the wealthy...therefore, corporations etc will have to downsize and won't be able to prosper..people will lose more jobs, therefore hurting the economy....By giving them a tax cut, and ALL WORKING AMERICANS..(not cuts for people who don't work as it is)  like McCain wants, then these corps and big businesses WILL prosper, creating more jobs, therefore strengthening the economy. THIS IS WHAT REAGAN DID and the eighties had to be one of the best decades, thanks to a REPUBLICAN..who inherited a disaster from Carter.  

With Obama's plan, the rich are just going to hide their money more, not going to be putting it back into the economy by spending it on luxury items, therefore, once again, hurting the ECONOMY.

And, when the Wealthy's money is not available to give everyone in the USA more freebies than there are now, it is going to come down to THE MIDDLE CLASS, paying for all his programs.

In the last few days, I am sure that you ahve heard what is going on with the tapes released with Obama's "marxist view" by constantly saying "redistributing the wealth" or changing the words slightly.

Aggie, I am scared for the working class Americans, because I am one of them!!

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hmmm.... suzi does not have more than $250000 in her purse through LUCK.  more likely, through very HARD WORK, possibly tons of student loans, many years of struggling herself, and now that she has it, i guess it's ok to tax the hell out of it.  i don't get that logic.
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I guess I am just not "patriotic" for NOT wanting to pay more taxes.
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i don't get the logic at all.  it is the death of the american dream, which was work hard, make yourself a success.  now that is apparently something to be ashamed of.
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I see example all the time of people using tax shelters, and loop holes to avoid paying taxes.  While I agree that no one likes to pay taxes, but they are needed.  When you look at what those taxes are being used for is it really that bad?  

Ask the people that watch the bridge in Minnesota collapse if they think that tax should be rasie so that infastructure can be repaired or even maintained.  Ask the man who is trying to decide if he should pay his heating bill or get his prescription filled, if he thinks that Universal Healthcare would be a bad thing.  

I have heard comments on the news that state "Why should I pay for my neighbours bills?"  I hear this and I think that this is one of the biggest flaws with the American dream.  Everyone is looking out for themselves.  There is this image of the rugged individual that everyone thinks that they have to live up to.  What ever happened to the idea of community?

What happened to ensuring that everyone is being taken care of?  Now there is such a greed mentality amoung everyone.    And I will be the first to admit that the social safteynets that currently exist are far from perfect, but imagine where you may be if they didn't exist?

I would be more than willing to pay more to help out my nieghbour or my community if I knew that if I was ever in trouble that they would return the favour.
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ensuring that everyone is taken care of is an entirely socialist ideal, it is not the goal of a democratic nation.  sad, but true.  in your world, there is no reason for me to work hard, get through school, take out $100000 of student loans (which I did) work 60+ hours a week until I was able to buy a house.   because really, if i do NOTHING, someone else can take care of me.  that's the flaw in the logic.
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That was very well said but it won't resonate with the people you're trying to reach.
You're wise at a young age.
Thanks for your post.
Mike  
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I am not saying that you should do nothing.  What I am saying is that there needs to be a middle ground between this ultra-extreme capitalism where I will do anything as long as it puts a dollar into my pocket mentality, and the other extreme were you don't need to do anything because someone else will be there.

What needs to happen is that the people need to take back control from the boardrooms.  Why do you pay so much for healthcare, because its a business.  I'm not saying that healthcare should be free, but it shouldn't be all dollars and cents either.

And the goal of a democratic nation is not to ensure that one works his *** of just to provide for his/her family.  The democratic nation was created so that each person may have their say in how the government is run.  So by that criteria, is America a truely democratic nation?  When is that last time that you have sat down and actually read a law that was being passed by the house or senate?  When is the ;last time you talked to your local representative?  or better yet, when is the last time that they asked your opinion on the issues?  

In a truely democratic nation your voice would be heard, and no one voice would rise above any other.  Together that choir of voices will lift up in to the sky and carry that nation into greatness.

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i'm speechless
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Too much of our taxes already go to "taking care" of others...the problem is, I would bet more than 1/2 are able bodied citizens who are more than capable of taking care of themselves!  

I have no problem with taxes..Yes they are needed to "care for the community" in areas as roads, education, police, fire, sanitation etc....BUT to pay for someone to sit home and reap the rewards who is capable is unjustifiable.

I would say approx. 35% of the money I earn goes to paying taxes, and I am SICK OF IT!  My husband is out of work due to an illness....is the government helping me pay my mortgage???  Absolutely NOT!  So who IS the government helping??? The people who PAY NO TAXES!!!!  

As for the racism:  I am totally sick of it also:

Yes, there are so many people voting for Obama because he is black and many voting for McCain because he is white...that is a sad thing...

However:

If McCain had affilliations with known terrorists like Ayers, he would have NEVER got the nomination.

If McCain went to a Church that was full of White Elitists as Obama did with Rev. Wright, he would not have gotten the nomination.

If McCain received contributions from the former CEO's of Lehman Bros., Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac....there would have been a scandal and would have had to step out of the race.

If McCain was involved in ACORN as Obama is, and gave the million or so dollars to support it, it would have also been scandalous.

If McCain had the inexperience of Obama, he never would have gotten the nomination.  But yet, because Sarah Palin doesn't have a lot of experience (YET, MUCH MORE THAN OBAMA) all of a sudden it is considered a liability....BUT NOT FOR OBAMA!!!

The media has been totally biased for Obama....if it was for McCain, it would be considered racist.....

I think there is something wrong here...does ANYONE ELSE SEE THIS????
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Yes, government is supposed to be "by the people, for the people".....however Obama wants more and more taxes so the government can control everything...A SOCIALIST VIEW!!!
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Thank you teko, well said.
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It is true...but I am sure all the biased medias say differently.....

Too bad all the liberals couldn't have Obama as president and the rest of us have McCain and then see who is crying in 4 years......

Let ALL the Dems "share their wealth"......I already pay too much in taxes.  

How about let all of you wonderful Liberal Humanitarians just give all your money to the government so they can leave the rest of us with sense alone???
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And I know that you are going to say that what you posted is non-biased......and not the "media" I speak of.....

The Dems have great ways of covering things up...just like the whole Kennedy scandal....yeah, right.
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What time is Barach "The Chosen One" Obama's commercial tonight so I can remember NOT to watch???
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I correct myself, to say that this nation is based on CAPITALIST principles, not SOCIALIST ideals.  that is why you are rewarded for hard work, and there are no provisions for "all" including those that don't contribute to the taxes, gaining a windfall from that (if you don't think that is true, look at the EITC, wherein you may not actually owe taxes, but you get a refund from the government!!! and no one sees a problem with that!)
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Teko...yes, we agree!  I truly agree that this debate has not created enemies.....either way, we will all have to get up and go to work the next morning...and either way, we all want the best for our nation.

My mother always said do not discuss politics or religion!!!!

Please take a look at my new post on Holiday Traditions and lets create some memories...

Peace be with all of you!
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I really enjoy reading your posts, it's so nice to see a Republican on this forum that "gets it"..  I understand all that you have said, I get it.  It's just very sad that people can't understand "facts" and don't understand what will happen if he gets into office. SCARY!  I know I won't feel any guilt because he won't get my vote, and I think whoever said let the Dems pay the higher taxes is right, they voted for him!  I too am tied of supporting the welfare, illegals, and so on, it's just not right. If Osama gets into office it will only be worse, I work hard for what I have and I should be able to give to whom I want, not pay higher taxes because of my income.  Too many people have gotten too many free rides and it needs to stop, quit enabling it people. I think his plan will lead to some people hiding more money, not claiming all they make and business owners will start paying people under the table, and I would really like to know how that is good for the economy?  Some don't get it, so keep writing suzi-q, I am with you 100%..
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The gist of Barack's message tonight (from what I've read--hasn't aired here yet) is "choose hope over fear and unity over division".  There's no place for Fear where there is God.  May God be with you, 2WB.

Suzi, I will go and check out your Holiday Traditions thread!  And I'll agree to disagree with you (for now!  ;)).  Peace be with you, too.
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I would appreciate if you leave me out of your comments, I told you many times ago that I was done with you, I feel sorry for you.  Just worry about yourself please...
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I've also decided to move on, this thread has gone about as far as it can go . Same people repeating their **** over and over. But before I say good night to you all, and tell you that I enjoyed the debate on this thread, I have one more thing to say.

2wonderfulboys;
   You are by far the meanest spirited person I have ever run into. You speak as if you are above the rest of us, and I have to tell you that we are all equal. I am so embarrassed to know that I was a part of a group of people that believe the way you do. After voting a straight Democratic ticket this year, I will never go back to being a republican. If you don't watch yourself, you'll grow to be a mean and hateful old woman. And it is I who feels sorry for you.


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You don't know me, you just don't like my opinion, I don't really care what you think, you aren't exactly the sweetest sounding person on earth either.. after reading your comments I am elated that you will never be a republican,  for I am emabarrassed of some of the comments you made.. so get off you high horse and look in the mirror, you are very mean spirited yourself, don't insult me just because you are a very unhappy sounding person... get real and keep your comments to yourself if  you can't take someone disaggreeing with you...have a nice life
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I haven't read all your posts, frankly because they are a waste of time, but you are a very insulting person and have become personal with me and others.  

You are the one who needs to re-examine yourself.  

The fact that you need to attack others instead of just attacking issues shows your immaturity.

I pray that you will grow up, your age and to stop being such a bitter person.
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You are a beam of sunshine on a cloudy day!  THANK YOU!
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Specifically, National Review writers want much more attention paid to the association, given that the LA Times has reported that Khalidi lavished praise on Obama at a farewell party in Chicago at which Bill Ayers was also present. (Other writers have accused Khalidi of being an aide to Yasser Arafat, a claim which Marc Ambinder and Ari Berman have suggested is not credible.)

In regards to Khalidi, however, the guilt-by-association game burns John McCain as well.

During the 1990s, while he served as chairman of the International Republican Institute (IRI), McCain distributed several grants to the Palestinian research center co-founded by Khalidi, including one worth half a million dollars.

A 1998 tax filing for the McCain-led group shows a $448,873 grant to Khalidi's Center for Palestine Research and Studies for work in the West Bank. (See grant number 5180, "West Bank: CPRS" on page 14 of this PDF.)

The relationship extends back as far as 1993, when John McCain joined IRI as chairman in January. Foreign Affairs noted in September of that year that IRI had helped fund several extensive studies in Palestine run by Khalidi's group, including over 30 public opinion polls and a study of "sociopolitical attitudes."

Of course, there's seemingly nothing objectionable with McCain's organization helping a Palestinian group conduct research in the West Bank or Gaza. But it does suggest that McCain could have some of his own explaining to do as he tries to make hay out of Khalidi's ties to Obama.
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Thank you!!  You are also that beam of sunshine!
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I started this thread as a general comment about Paul McCain's apparently failing health and questioned his ability to serve 4 terms.  I am happy that it has led to some spirited debates regarding the issues surrounding this very emotional campaign.  

We are all emotional because it is important to us - each of us.  What we have to maintain in perspective that in this country we are entitled to an opinion, and that we can chose whomever we please.  My hope is that the choice is based on facts and those facts to be verified.  There is a lot at stake to be "whatevering" and a just because attitude - when it comes to my children's future.  

If you believe that McCain is the best person to be President - by all means, vote for him.  My opinion - which is my opinion - is that you have not reviewed the facts associated with the issues.  My opinion also is that Obama does not have all of the answers, but he provides hope to those of us who in the economic crises today have lost a lot.  He has factual - verified factual - answers to questions that I personally have that affect my family.

I don't believe that it is our right - however, to make slanderous comments and ignorant - yes I said it - ignorant comments such as Osama/Obama.  It's not that Obama is a person higher than anyone else and shouldn't be scrutinized - but comments such as those are rediculus and ignorant.  Ignorant is not a "dirty word" - it's merely a statement of a person who is unaware or unskilled in facts concerning a topic".

Your opinions are your own and you are entitled to them -  just as Angiesmom; kiddthekat; mikesimon; teko; savas; myself; and others have expressed our beliefs in this emotional issue.   My wish is that emotion not influence your opinions - intelligent discussing of the facts - that is how decisions should be made.  

So, I hope that those that continue in this VERY LONG thread - continue to discuss intelligently, and if you have something positive to question - based on fact - (thank you mikesimon), by all means, do so.  Those of you that are spewing garbage - feel free to jump off of this thread - start your own if you want.   I would appreciate opinions and facts to be discussed - questions to be answered and personal attacks eliminated.

I don't possess the ownership of this website or this thread - but we can all use this forum to discuss issues very important to us.  Facts - people.  (again, thank you mikesimon; teko, angiesmom; savas, etc.)  I would love to hear some actual facts from the Republican supporters.  We can continue to be helpful to each other in understanding all of the ISSUES concerning this campaign - after all, we are less than a week away from the decision.  

Have a great day.  

theNERD
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Correction - to serve 4 years.
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John McCain.  His name is John, not Paul.
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Sorry!  Paul McCain was an old doctor of mine.  My bad!  
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Osama/obama, yes my opinion, I don't appreciate the ignorant comment, to me there isn't much difference between the two, if you don't like me calling him that then don't read my posts.   We (republicans) have posted numerous facts but you (the dems) have failed to listen, you only hear what you want, so frankly if you don't get it by now then that is just sad.. I just pray McCain wins because I am sure then you will see that what we have said all along is closer to the truth than Obama/osama will ever get...
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The only fact I have seen is that he was a POW - other questions are met with hysteria and no facts.

Again, you proved my point.  

Good luck.  Maybe Obama won't deport you when he is elected.
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You have to look at Savas new journal posting.  It's hilarious and intelligent.

http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/36823


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I am seriously worried about your well being, you proved my point and that is you don't pay attention unless it benefits your candidate..so good luck being blind to the truth and getting through life being a total lefty... and if obama the osama wins, GOD help us...
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"You don't know me, you just don't like my opinion, I don't really care what you think, you aren't exactly the sweetest sounding person on earth either.. after reading your comments I am elated that you will never be a republican,  for I am emabarrassed of some of the comments you made.. so get off you high horse and look in the mirror, you are very mean spirited yourself, don't insult me just because you are a very unhappy sounding person... get real and keep your comments to yourself if  you can't take someone disaggreeing with you...have a nice life "

Yeah...she's a real "beam of sunshine", suzi!  LMAO!  (I suppose we can add this to the list of things on which we can agree to disagree!  ;D)

I've seen nothing but baseless opinions from republicans on this thread.  No facts at all.
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And thay is why I am voting for Nader or McKinney.  ROFLMAO.

How about this one people.  McCain is against abortion but for abandoning the parents when the child needs assistance, has special needs when there smarter than other kids.  Receives 100% disability for injuries that other vets can't get a 10% disability for.  Plus he was not borne in America and shouldn't even be able to run.

For Obama?  Look at Illinois political machine.  Our governor.  He is from the same corrupt machine.
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If I look at the most bigoted ignorant posts can I play a party guessing game by reading the above posts?

Like who is for teenage couples marrying or having kids.
Against education.
For corporate welfare.
Ad nauseum.
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It is clear what will happen to this country if Obama is elected...has anyone searched what happened in the great depression..and what made it happen? TAXES. Obama wishes to RAISE taxes in a time of a national crisis.
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Obama spreads your wealth...a freeking commercial for 4 million dollars. Raises eyebrow.
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I am so glad you can type me word for word, at least you got that right....
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Hmm taxes.  Redistribution of wealth.  Corpoate welfare?

Anybody ever take a look from lincoln, the first republican president until W what the spending traditionally is budgetwise?

Or that in the last two elections Bush broke the records on spending for a campaign?

Again I think both of the main parties need to be phase out but lets be real people!!
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Most of AMERICA, the people who work on the line in daycares etc.  are poor and when they get worn out get stuffed in old age homes!

Why is it most Americans die in more poverty than Europeans if we are so rich?

Maybe because the people at the bottom are more disposable or not really human?
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I thought it was Isolationism and a president who though that he should appear like a king, and poor controls on stock trading with the majority of people buying on the margin..


Silly Me.
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Angie...............Again you insult...
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I appreciate your concern - but my well-being is just wonderful.  

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Honestly, we cannot quote Obama on anything...because he changes his stance every time he speaks!

What is it Obama?

Is it 250,000, 200,000, or 100,000 for higher taxes????

Is Iran a little country that we should not fear?  or is Iran a country that we need to watch and protect our country against?

Is your grandmother just a "typical white person" or is she someone who has shaped you to who you are today?

You voted against the surge (that is working) but yet now you promise to fund those troops!

You said you are going to cut military spending, but now you promise to increase national security!

Does Michelle still feel that America is a "downright mean country" or is she now "proud of her country?"

Do you still believe that our troops are "killing civillians" or defending our country and everyone's right to freedom?

WHICH ONE IS IT OBAMA?????
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Hmmm ..how about both? There is both republican and democrats in the white house.

I think We need to get the country back o track..with both parties....that will stop biting their tounge on important issues that have brought our country to this point. To much political greed.
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Obama also called white people "crackers" and "typical white people " in his book, he forgets he is bi-racial, not a complete african american, that's him playing the race card. Really sick of that whole thing, and yes he can't make up his mind about anything...And I don't  think I should be taxed more because I work hard, or should I say I don't want a handout but it seems like some think they deserve it even though they don't work for it..we are only enabling people by giving "handouts"... Now let's see how mean and terrible I am...glad you are really listening to the facts suzi-q and snoozie, makes me feel a whole lot better :)
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I've been absent lately, had a nice holiday in the hospital, YUK!! But I'm back. I see that the controversy is still going strong, but I dare to say that this will be nothing compared to what it will be after election day. I see that I have a lot of reading to do, so I'll be back after I play catchup.

Angel                                                                        OBAMA 08            












































































































































































































































































































































































































































































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When you step into the voting booth we all need to know exactly what we will get if the candidate we vote for is elected. Below is a side by side comparison of the candidates and what they support or stand for along with websites that you can verify the information contained in this email.  We must be informed voters. Pass it on to everyone you know.    

2008 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE COMPARISON TALKING POINTS
ISSUE                                        JOHN McCAIN  BARACK OBAMA  
Favors new drilling offshore US                      Yes  No  
Will appoint judges who interpret
the law not make it                                       Yes  No  

Served in the US Armed Forces                     Yes  No  
Amount of time served in the
US Senate                                          22 YEARS  173 DAYS  
Will institute a socialized national
health care plan                                              No  Yes  
Supports abortion throughout the pregnancy     No  Yes  
Would pull troops out of Iraq immediately         No  Yes  
Supports gun ownership rights                        Yes  No  
Supports homosexual marriage                        No  Yes  
Proposed programs will mean a
huge tax increase                                           No  Yes  
Voted against making English the
official language                                               No  Yes  
Voted to give Social Security benefits to illegals  No  Yes  

CAPITAL GAINS TAX  
MCCAIN  0% on home sales up to $500,000 per home (couples). McCain does not propose any change in existing home sales income tax.  
OBAMA  28% on profit from ALL home sales.  (How does this affect you? If you sell your home and make a profit, you will pay 28% of your gain on taxes. If you are heading toward retirement and would like to down-size your home or move into a retirement community, 28% of the money you make from your home will go to taxes. This proposal will adversely affect the elderly who are counting on the income from their homes as part of their retirement income.)  

DIVIDEND TAX  
MCCAIN  15% (no change)  
OBAMA  39.6% - (How will this affect you? If you have any money invested in stock market, IRA, mutual funds, college funds, life insurance, retirement accounts, or anything that pays or reinvests dividends, you will now be paying nearly 40% of the money earned on taxes if Obama becomes president. The experts predict that 'Higher tax rates on dividends and capital gains would crash the stock market, yet do absolutely nothing to cut the deficit.')  
INCOME TAX  
MCCAIN
(no changes)  Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $31,250  

OBAMA (reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts)  Single making 30K - tax $8,400
Single making 50K - tax $14,000
Single making 75K - tax $23,250
Married making 60K - tax $16,800
Married making 75K - tax $21,000
Married making 125K - tax $38,750
Under Obama, your taxes could almost double!  

INHERITANCE TAX  
MCCAIN  - 0% (No change, Bush repealed this tax)  
OBAMA  Restore the inheritance tax Many families have lost businesses, farms, ranches, and homes that have been in their families for generations because they could not afford the inheritance tax. Those willing their assets to loved ones will only lose them to these taxes.  

NEW TAXES PROPOSED BY OBAMA  
New government taxes proposed on homes that are more than 2400 square feet.  New gasoline taxes (as if gas weren't high enough already) New taxes on natural resources consumption (heating gas, water, electricity)  New taxes on retirement accounts, and last but not least....New taxes to pay for socialized medicine so we can receive the same level of medical care as other third-world countries!!!  
        


You can verify the above at the following web sites:

http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/election/2008/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.taxes.html

http://elections.foxnews.com/?s=proposed+taxes
http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourworld/politics/articles/mccain_obama_offer_different_visions_on_taxes.html

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/candidates/barack_obama/
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/candidates/john_mccain/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  


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Why is all of this going unnoticed by the media????  They send 1000 reporters to Alaska to dig up something on Sarah palin and they have this right in front of their eyes!

QUOTES FROM OBAMA'S BOOKS......      

From Dreams of My Father:'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'

From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race.'

From Dreams of My Father:'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.'

From Dreams of My Father: 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'

From Dreams of My Father:'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'

  

And FINALLY the Most Damning one of ALL of them!!!

From Audacity of Hope:'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction
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So Obama’s camp wants to make a point that John McCain doesn’t know how to use a computer.



Well............it is also known that 'Obama' can not land a jet on an aircraft carrier at night.  







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You better check your sources.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-books.htm
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This is something I posted recently in a member's journal.

I'm disturbed because I don't think you are looking at the facts. Let's do a review here, OK?


The fact is the founder of the Alaskan Independence Party, Joe Vogler, said "I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions." And he also said, "The Fires of Hell Are Frozen Glaciers Compared to My Hatred for the American Government". So the founder of this group admitted that he hates our government and depite this, Todd Palin joined his party.

Here is the source, which I already posted earlier in this journal..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkS9QZj5W6g&feature=related

This group clearly hates America and Sarah Palin is clearly directly involved with this group. Her husband was a member for years, she recently told them to "keep up the good work" and she attends their conventions.

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Thank you, mikesimon, for that post.  And here's a link about it, too:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/30/fact-check-does-group-mccain-chairs-have-link-to-columbia-professor-khalidi/

About taxes, this should help you, suzi:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/29/fact-check-obama-biden-creeping-down-on-who-gets-tax-relief/
Here's the chart comparing the two plans again:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/06/09/ST2008060900950.html

Oh, and getting "news" from Sean Hannity is bad enough, suzi, but copying and pasting stupid email forwards is REALLY laughable:
"...these cherry-picked statements are all presented devoid of context, and some of them are reworded from the orignal  (or apparently non-existent)"  Nice try, through.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/ownwords.

More facts:

Did experts say Obama plan would 'destroy' 6 million jobs?  NO!
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/30/fact-check-did-experts-say-obama-plan-would-destroy-6-million-jobs/

Would 23 million small-business owners pay higher tax rates under Obama?  NO!
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/mccains_small-business_bunk.html

Would Obama hike taxes on small businesses that employ 16 million?  NO!
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/21/fact-check-would-obama-hike-taxes-on-small-businesses-that-employ-16-million/

Would the "surge strategy" principle used in Iraq be effective in Afghanistan?  NO!
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/03/fact-check-did-afghan-general-say-surge-principle-wont-work/

Does McCain almost always agree with Bush?  YES!
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/26/fact-check-does-mccain-almost-always-agree-with-bush/

Does McCain misrepresents Obama's tax proposals again, and again, and again?  YES!
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/more_tax_deceptions.html

McCain tax cuts would give $200 billion to corporations, $4 billion to oil companies?  YES!
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/28/fact-check-mccain-tax-cuts-give-200-billion-to-corporations-4-billion-to-oil-companies/

Would McCain's mortgage plan aid banks and cost taxpayers?  YES!
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/15/fact-check-would-mccains-mortgage-plan-aid-banks-and-cost-taxpayers/

Obama quote about McCain:  "He's fought against common-sense regulations for decades … and he said in a recent interview that he thought deregulation has actually helped grow our economy. Senator, what economy are you talking about?"
Has McCain fought against regulation for decades?  YES!
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/29/fact-check-mccains-stance-on-deregulation/
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Thank you for your post, Jade.  Being associated with an America-hating group like that and wanting to be Vice-president.  What was McCain thinking?  Very poor judgment--by both of them.
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It's also known suzi-q..that Obama took the American flag off his jet and put his own picture in place of it.

That can be searched for those that wish to post 291,821 links.
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I read Barrack Obama's book and found it facinating. As the grandmother of 3 bi-racial grandsons, I understood more about how he felt to be b-racial. It's difficult for any bi-racial child to grow up in this country. I've seen and heard the horrible remarks from evil people who feel the need to poke their noses into everyones business. I came away after reading Sen Obama's book with a deeper understanding of the man and now have 10 times the respect for him.
    
I agree Agiesmom, I've been reading up on the America hating group and they sound so similiar to the people once invoved with The Republic of Texas. Most of that group split up and went seperate ways, probably to try and spread their poison in other states.  Did you happen to read where Palin said that she was thinking seriously about 2012. Lord, we'll have to go through this all over again. What she doesn't understand is, she not good enough to kiss Hillary's shoes much less try and be like her. It's hard to be classy when you have no class.
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The main flags were registered trademarks of the airline from which the Obama Campaign purchased the plane, snoozies--so, they legally had to be removed.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/airplane.asp
But there are still flags on it.

That said, I'm having a hard time finding the flag on McCain's plane:
http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/mccainplane.jpg
Maybe my vision isn't very good.  If you see any in the photo, please point them out to me.  Heck, McCain's plane isn't even red, white, and blue.  He's obviously not patriotic.
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Aggie....yes..it is cut and paste.....after all, I don't have hours like you do to sit on the computer...

KiddtheKatt- "It's hard to be classy when you have no class."........I guess it takes one to know one.  


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suzi, you find time to spread garbage--doesn't take long to verify something before you copy, past, and post it.  I've received some false emails about Palin and McCain--I wouldn't post or forward anything without verifying the validity.  That's the responsible thing to do.
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    It is very difficult to remember that this is an adult type forum, with the old "it takes one to know one" adage. Since I have a good sense of humor, I'll let that intended insult die a fast death.
    I've spoken to quite a few of our friends in the Houston area, and they were all republican, After McCain used poor judgement on picking a very unqualified person to run as his Vice, everyone that I have spoken to will be voting Democrat, most of them already voted.
    I heard McCain on the television today state that Palin was more qualified than Obama and Biden put together. That was too funny, and I must say an embarrassing statement. What makes me so leery of McCain is the fact at times he acts as though he may be suffering from dementia and if he gets to where he can't run this country, then sweet cheeks will take over. We need to make more calls and get people riled up so that they will be there to vote on Tuesday.


                                                                 OBAMA08
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angie....if The main flags were registered trademarks of the airline, they should not be allowed to be removed unless a purchase from OBAMA was involved. I was saying to the Group as a hole..as debaters...not to you only angie, as this is a debate on McCain and Obama..not angie's debate. So if Obama purchased the trade mark just to GET HIS NAME UP for all to see. To me that is quite arrogant. How dare anyone remove the flag from a political campaign and that is placed o something that was there to begin with. Who's money paid for that? Oh yea we are not allowed to know it is top secret. It is that jet company's logo. Oh yes he has a small flag next 2 the # of the plane i am sure that is what folks see first when the plane lands..instead of the big O. McCain's Plane didn't have a flag on it to begin with. He has to much class to alter the appearance of anything to put his name on it.  HE did however put his name right along side of HIS own Private Plane. That is done with style and a respect for others property. ea main is probably unpatriotic...he only served his country and has many scars to prove it. Unfortunate that others (not you angie) yesshh don't own that 2.) don't get what patriotic means, leader means, experience with the enemy means, . One who will FIGHT for freedom and HAS been there. One who will NOT pich and choose which newspaper reporter can sit on his plane for questioning, one who can stick with a tax plan, one who will NOT raise taxes on the already hurting middle class, higher class, lower class tax bracket,and economy. One who will not allow stand for abortion rights so our children get a free pass to sex. and rapists get a free pass to women and young women, who btw if get pregnant, the parents get to suffer the expense of any surgeries, counseling. so yes I choose to vote for a man with experience, and who knows how to keep this country safe.  Age? Yea he is 72 but has fought for this country in one way or another since age 17. That is alot of experience. Biden is just as old as McCain , only a few years younger. So the OLD man BS isn't working with me. Plain and simple as i said from the get go.... Experience has always got my vote and always will.

I'm not here 2 judge your vision...on;y debate. Any Other debaters out there?
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Kiddthekatt-  there were other things that I would have liked to have said to you, however, It would be totally inappropriate for me to say.

You have insulted me by insinuating that I am a racist....that is definitely a personal attack on me.  I did not appreciate it at all for you to demean my character.  You do not know me as I don't know you.  I have no problems sticking to the debate...but YOU crossed the line...not only with me, but with others. You need to re-evaluate your comments before you submit them.  You have been cruel.  Let's leave it at that.
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Thanks, Teko.  Yes, snoozies...after that long, rambling post--the plane is Obama's (either purchased or leased) and he was not allowed to keep the registered trademark flags on the plane.  Did you even bother to read the link?  And McCain did alter the plane he purchased, too...and talk about arrogant--McCain had his name plastered in huge letters across it.  Other candidates do the same--but most at least keep the red, white, and blue theme (McCain did not).  I hope you're getting how ridiculous this is.  Again, more false email forwards that have long ago been debunked.
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Just like McCain you have turned everything so that it makes you the innocent. You might not have singled me out to be rude to, but you been rude to any and all who disagrees with you. As for being cruel, I haven't said anything on this thread that I wouldn't say to your face.
   It would be nice to be able to debate, but we've seen what a debate turns into here. Go back and read some of your post suzi, you've been pretty ugly also. I'll say it again, we each have the freedom to vote the way we want, and each and every one of will, or already have. Think about it.
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I understand how you feel, I am sure I will get a lot of insults after I write this but I don't really care... after reading what some people have written it looks as though they just don't get it... them calling McCain unpatriotic is just plain stupidity, things will be twisted on here and the media just so OBAMA=OSAMA  will be elected.. It's just plain ignorance!  I have just been watchind and reading and laughing a lot too at the posts some have written, it's pretty scary!  Remember the "Jim Jones" um cult that happened a long time ago?  I bet some of the people on here would do the same for Obama, they talk about him like he is perfect, like he is God...Guess what people he is far from perfect, and why they would vote for someone like him is just unfathomable...  I just don't get it, the only thing I can think of is that the ones that do adore him are just waiting for their free handouts and believe that all are entitiled even if they don't work for it. That's how I see it... Hang in there suzi-q, just ignore the comments some have made to you, they are just lost.....
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For those who are not familiar with the Muslim religion, a significant part of their worship is tied to praying at sunrise and sundown. I find it a very unfortunate choice out of all of the millions of symbols Obama could have chosen that he chose one that depicts a sun rising behind a flag. If he really wanted to get away from the Muslim image why did he chose a symbol with Muslim implications?
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Yes angie i do see how ridiculous this is.  Especially MY rambling. I should go back and look at more rambling posts. Nope it hasn't been debunked. A SMALL flag...in comparison to his O sign...is a mockery.
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Hmm.

When Obama walks into a room do you see a black or white man?

Lets get real what is wrong with him identifying as a black man?  That is what Obama grew up as!  To think otherwise would be asinine would it not?

So far as identifying with Muslims-SO WHAT!?

So far as I am concerned the American Muslims I met while in the army were more moral and more ethical than the American Christians.  
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The muslim symbol is a moon.  Ever think your reaching a little bit?

Check.  Muslims rarely (none that I know) use a sun for symbolism.

But Japan does.  Maybe Obama is a secret Japanese Taoist?

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McCain associated with and listened almost solely to communists for several years!
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I am so glad you are so much more educated than most!! for your info I did look it up, and you are so misinformed yourself!!  also  very easy to bait..:)
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Here is a thought if Guantanamo is legal McCain isn't.  He was born in Panama not the US.  Unless American bases are American soil.  In which case Guantanomo bay torturers are not legal
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Rising suns.  Hmmm it stands for God, or heaven in xianity..  Is it possible the sun stands for hope, or maybe a christian god, or for change.

Nah that's too far of a reach.
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How can anyone even think about voting for the party that has been in power the past 8 years. Thats insanity !  What does it take for people to wake up !    Your time is up. You've done your damage.
I'm not naive, Obama will not be a perfect president.  No one is going to be able to clean this mess up easily. The best we can hope is he will head us in the right direction.  McCain will keep us on the same course and you can't dispute that !   It is FACT he has voted with Bush 90% of the time.  It is on record, if you bother to check.  The tax cuts Bush gave to big business has not created jobs.  Up until a month ago McCain thought our economy was good.  Talk about out of touch !
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606078_tn?1247268153
We've been trying to figure that out as well, but all we get back is" Obama/Osama, you're voting for the ant-Christ, Obama will make you sorry that you voted for him, and etc....etc...etc....


2wonderfulboys
Ut oh, do you mean to tell me that since I pray at sunrise (thanking the Lord for a restful night) and I pray at sunset ( I thank the Lord for a wonderful day) that I am probably Muslim? All this time I thought that I was a Christian.
Is it me or do you all find that statement totally ridiculous? And as far as standing in line for my free handouts, lady you need to get a life. I stand in line twice a year to serve Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners to the homeless and to those that need Obama in office. My husband pays more in taxes than most people make all year, and we both realize that in order to help get our economy straightened out, we will pay more taxes, and we won't be having a fit about it either.


SeriousSam
I agree with you 100% When Barrack Obama walks into a room, I see a very intelligent, educated black man who has restored my faith in our government. He has given me hope that my grand-kids will see a better future, and that the World Leaders will regain their respect for the USA. I travel all over the world with my husband and we've heard so many bad things said about Bush and his administration.
  Barrack Obama has the right ideas, and I think IMO that he will get the economy going in the right direction.


Kidd                                                           OBAMA08

  
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165308_tn?1323190145
Take a few minutes to read…

.. "Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all
ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it
would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every
day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the
owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he
said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20."
Drinks
for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes, so
the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But
what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they
divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted
that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would
each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested
that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same
amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued
to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant the men began to
compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man. He
pointed
to the tenth man, "but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man, "I only saved
a dollar,
too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!" "That's
true!"

shouted the seventh man, "'Why should he get $10 back when I got only
two? The wealthy get all the breaks!" "Wait a minute," yelled
the first
four men in unison, "We didn't get anything at all. The system
exploits
the poor!" The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat
down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill,
they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money
between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our
tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most
benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being
wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might
start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.


"Eventually, Socialists run out of other peoples' money.."
MARGARET
THATCHER

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165308_tn?1323190145
KiddtheKatt- I never got personal.  I may have made general comments about liberals...the same way people talk about us republicans...I may put Obama down, the same way you and others talk of McCain...I NEVER specified you in any comment until you focused in on me....believe me, I would have said it to your face also, and then some...but then again, I probably wouldn't waste my breath....

SeriousSam-  I have no problem with Obama identifiing with Black men.  But you don't find a problem with him denouncing the "white" in him?   Ashamed of his mother's race and didn't want it "ingratiated" in him?  He had to show "loyalty to the black masses"...why not just loyalty to America?  I also very much respect and admire Martin Luther King....he was a peaceful man who moved civil rights forward through peace.  He is a man to look up to....but Malcom X?????  COme on....that is downright scary!!!

Also, why identify yourself as a muslim?  He states that he is a Christian very very emphatically.  He changes only to get the muslim vote...and vice versa.....just like everything else he stands for....

Aggie- the facts that I get are true....the media and others just skew it in the "Messiah's" favor...

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OMG the symbol on Obama's plane having anything to do with being a Muslim.  YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FREAKING KIDDING ME !   You people are really scrapping the bottom of the bowl.  That's so stupid it's actually funny.

Yeah, if you play the Beatles record backwards it will say Obama is a Muslim. LMAO  or was that ....Paul is dead.  (some of you might be to young to get this)
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8,9 and 10 have found loop holes, so they have been drinking the beer and sticking 1-7 with the tab. lol
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Avatar_f_tn
You are just as nuts as some of the others on here, so I guess you found your new best friends, you should get along with the other far leftys on here...
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LOL!  Yes, allaboutmary...they found a good tax accountant like Sarah Palin and paid less than 10%!

Sam...you made excellent points.

The Mccain supporters are REALLY stretching--all the plane symbols and flags and such--the ridiculous email forwards.  Oh, and fyi, I was being facetious when I commented on McCain's patriotism--I was deliberately making a stupid comment that is just as idiotic as the nutty anti-Obama comments to make a point (that was obviously missed by some).  Never mind.
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Now we're nuts.....lol You know, I'm so far left my left shoulder is throbbing, oh wait a minute, that's the Fibro. Welcome allaboutmary, there are several new best friends here, and we have a really good time.

Oh before I forget. My plumber came out today and I almost feel over. His name is also Joe. I started laughing and he let me know right fast that he was a huge Obama fan. I have Obama signs in my front yard, so he knew where we stood.
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Honestly?
               I take great comfort most times that the ancestry I have contains almost no white EUROPEAN ancestry.  Why should a child treated as poorly as black boys and men are treated feel otherwise?

All being pale white means is that I sunburn and do not tan.  Why should I be proud of that?  I am glad that I am a man though honestly since it means I don't get to see my kids much I am not necessarily even treasuring that on some days.
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I feel sorry for a lot of you, if you feel comfortable in voting for the Osama then go ahead and ruin our country, I guess you will just have to learn the hard way.  
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I'm guessing .....you voted for Bush/Cheney and still support them ??????

I seriously doubt Obama could ruin this country more than Bush has.  

Why would you continue to poke a stick in your eye ?   and then not even understand why your eye hurts.
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Does anyone see where Obama removing the flag..that it was suggested he is muslim? QQ.  He is christian, with Muslim decent. Who cares. He just has NO record period. I'd rather have someone who has a proven record fro running anything of substance, than someone with empty promises that has NEVER "been" there. Not a race thing, not a muslim thing, but an experience thing. McCain voted against things , just as well as Obamas when he was senator for 333 days. That is what it boils down to for me. They both can promise cuts in taxes, but when whoever gets elected they can change on a drop of a dime. Again..it still boils down to experience in "handling" matters of this country.
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My eye doesn't hurt for your info, I have morals unlike some so you can quit insulting me.. I suppose you are one of the ones that are excited about the handouts you will be getting IF osama gets into office, well enjoy taking from others if that is what you are all about, for I believe in working for what I have :)
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my last comment was for you in case you don't "get it"
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Avatar_m_tn
Yumm Handouts!  My mortgage will get paid off, I still get million dollar bonuses and I get to sell the government junk bonds.

Um sorry I forgot I'm not a corporate CEO.

So I'll just have to settle for the minimums for living, education, and hoping for wages that a person can live on?  

Wow!  We can actually hope that we have the dignity, and quality of life Europeans have?

Gee it looks like both sides are promising handouts!  Which type are you holding you hand out for.  LOL

I am sorry you don't approve of my hedonistic immoral lifestyle but you know what they say!  Sex is the only entertainment that is available even to the poor!..

(just joking)

However to be honest the Republicans did not put their best and brightest up this year.  Instead they did what the democrats didwhen Clinton ran which is make it a free for all, and the only ones that stepped up this year were the whackos.

Personally I am not fond of any of any of the canidates but one side does seem more sane than the other.
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You are questioning my morals because I'm voting for Obama ?   Do you think the republicans have a corner on the market of religion and faith ?  Do you think turning this country over to a man that thinks the economy is good, and an uneducated women is the morally right thing to do ?

As far as hand-outs and Obama are concerned.......the majority of what Obama talks about is creating JOBS BABY JOBS.
Do you know that 90% of this country WANTS to work for a living.  What makes you think he is interested in giving hand-outs ? Really I'm curious ?    Is it because he wants Bush's tax cuts to expire and give the middle class (who are in terrible shape right now) a tax cut ?
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P.S.    Personally, I only know of two families on Welfare and both are white, religious,and republican.  Also both families are capable of working and lied to get on Welfare.  Go figure.....
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   We've gone from being nuts to being morally corrupt. As for Barrack Obama removing the flag, his campaign refurbished his plane, repainting, adding Obama's slogun, and yes removing the flag from the tail section, but the American flag waves next to the planes call numbers on both sides, or have you not bothered to look?
    It's very easy to keep using the same negative comments than it is to research. Barrack Obama may not have experience as far as having a record, I guess you think Sweet Cheeks is superior with her "country girl attitude and Tina Fey looks". Barrack Obama IMO is a man of his word. Barrack Obama is a man filled with compassion for those who may not have as much as some, Barrack Obama isn't promising handouts, Barrack Obama wants to give everyone a chance to live comfortably and to feed and clothe thier families.
    2wonderfulboys, why are you so concerned about Barrack Obama's tax plan? If you make over 250,000 a year is when you have the right to gripe, but if you don't, then you'll be standing in line with a lot of others who are waiting " on handouts" as you so aptly continue to tell us. Using the same old same old is getting slightly old, we've heard it all and I still back Barrack Obama 100%.
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Avatar_m_tn
Sure why not?  Mores and morals being the product of a society I will concede that I might be that in other peoples eyes.

Particularly since I may actually go out and look for that movie Larry Flynt is making with a Sarah Palin double...  

However i do think it would be nice to get the perspective from Alaska in the whitehouse.  I don't think the M&P team is the one to do it.

NOt that I am thrilled with Biden and Obama because I am not.
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Avatar_m_tn
Welfare.

Does anyone know what the term working poor means?

Where you work one or more jobs full time and you still cannot make it?  That is the situation that we currently have.  People who are not lazy but still cannot make it.

So far as supporting their country.  Someone take a look at the demographics of our military tell me whose kids cannot afford to college and instead go into the military to bleed for our country?  It is rarely the children of the top 1% who hold 80% of our countries wealth, but they are the ones who reap the benefits of worn out people who die childless or widowed without adequate medical, dental or psychiatric care.

And Military VET make up the majority of the homeless and they are ignored by MCCAIN and his cronies.  Personally I think a country that abuses their troops deserves it when the military stages a coup.  Particularly given how many of of the members are such big cowards or P@$$!*$ that they make decisions not on what is best for the country but rather on what bogeyman is lurking under their beds!
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You people still just don't get it............I am not going to keep repeating myself, I have voiced my opinion about Obama=Osama and you don't like it, well I personally don't appreciate you insulting McCain either.  This is a debate, I have laughed at quite a few of the posts because most are just grasping a straws to make themselves feel better, well go ahead..Why you would vote for someone that believes in partial birth abortion, socialism ( you know taking from the wealthy to give to the poor) he socializes with terrorists, all of his money has just magically appeared  for this campaign, his wife is just now "happy to be an American". So when the terrorists start knocking on your door and blowing up our country because he basically thinks you can sit down and talk to these people, remember you voted for him...He is probably friends with most of them any way, now I will just sit back and wait for more insults, I am looking forward to reading more of the nutty comments....:)
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O.k.   I'm gonna leave it alone....No sense in it anymore......What you wrote in your post shows how well informed you are.............even John McCain disagrees with you.
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I agree with allaboutmary, you are beginning to get annoying and I don't care for annoying people. I have phone calls to make, we have to sure that everyone has a ride to the polls. C-ya 3wonderfulboys, and good luck, you're going to need it.
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Avatar_f_tn
do you really think the two of you aren't annoying??  You two are the most uniformed people that i have never met!    I need no luck, but you will when you are regretting your decision on Tuesday, so good luck to the both of you in helping to ruin your childrens lives for the next 4 years...would you like my address so you can send me a "i'm sorry" letter? :)   You two are so easy to get all fired up, it's been a blast !!!
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