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msk and Autoimmune diease
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msk and Autoimmune diease

dose anyone know how many pople with msk have  Autoimmune Disease????i had a positive antinuclear blood test .so that's pointing at a autoimmune disease but witch one ???? my joints hurt in my hands wrist ,my legs not as bad and my neck.i'm am thinking my autoimmune disease is coming from the biofilm infection in my stones..my gp is sending me to a rheumatologist on 12/19..i would love to know how many have this??? so i can tell the dr. how many people have this with msk.. please help ..my gp thinks it could be ra or lupus..the antinuclear blood test is really high it's 204. and normal is 120!!! from what i read the higher it is more likely lupus..i did get alot of rashes this summer when i was in the sun.i never had that be for and i am always in the sun and i never burn..rashes go with lupus .and i have a rash on my finger for 11 months..  thanks msk luv!!!!
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168348_tn?1379360675
Our Community Leader on Fibro/CFS has lots of knowledge .. I'm going to see if she can help us or see if she knows anybody who may have an answer on this great question!

C~
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Hi mskluv,

Your ANA titer is positive... but fortunately not that high. (unless the lab changed the methodology). An ANA should be negative, although some physicians consider an ANA titer of 1:20 negative. Do you happen to know what the pattern is ? With an ANA result, comes a pattern (speckled, nucleolar & homogenous are just a few) The pattern gives a physician a clue as to which autoimmune disease you could have. When you see the rheumatologist, he or she may take X-Rays (hands & wrists) and will probably order additional lab tests and the results from those tests should point as to which autoimmune condition you have. There are, however, people with positive ANA titers that don't have a diagnosis. I'm one of them. I have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and my ANA is 1:640. I have autoimmune problems... and have some signs of various autoimmune diseases, but I am on a treatment that is covering both my CFS and autoimmune issues.

I totally agree with you that your autoimmune condition is coming from the infection from your kidney condition. Dr. Garth Nicolson has done extensive research on the roles infections are playing in people with autoimmune conditions. He recently was here in MedHelp and answering questions from MedHelp members. You may want to google his name and you will immediately see his institute and be able to read his research on infections in autoimmune diseases, neurodegenerative diseases and fatigue illnesses.

I hope this helps. Good luck with your appointment.
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168348_tn?1379360675
THANKS so so much for stopping by, especially on this holiday weekend!

GREAT info .. thanks again!

C~
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691983_tn?1266808432
thanks very much for you info..
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489228_tn?1291535054
Wow... I missed that information on Garth Nicholson.  I do however have a research paper written by James Beyer I believe that discusses Medical biofilms.  In it he states the the immune response of the host having a biofilm infection show an increase in the histimine and mast cells in the body.  Both of these things have been directly connected with autoimmune diseases!

Now to google the info by Dr. Garth Nicolson

Shelly
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I have a positive ANA as well and have been diagnosed with Lupus and Fibromyalgia.  I also have a positive ANA.  I would like to correct a statement someone made earlier in the thread.  An ANA below 1:80 is considered normal.  An ANA of 1:80 is considered borderline, but most doctors will not diagnose lupus with an ANA titer this low.  Also, an extremely high ANA level is not an indicator of more serious disease and isn't a more concusive diagnostic tool to diagnose Lupus.  Lupus must be diagnosed used a combination of symptoms, in addition to the positive ANA.  

I honestly don't know how anybody here can sit here and say that their autoimmune disease was caused by the kidney condition.  There could have been something to "trigger" it at some point, and I'm not disputing the idea that infections can lead to autoimmune diseases......but how can anybody tell you that it was a kidney infection?  They cannot!!!!!   I would LOVE to see supporting evidence of this, if it exists.  As of right now, this is not something that has been published or is accepted as "fact" in the medical community.  I would hesitate greatly to suggest this to someone without additional research and community backing.  

Good luck with your rheumatology tests.  Don't be discouraged if you don't get immediate answers.  Most people don't get answers right away unless the symptoms are glaring in the doctor's phase, in conjunction with staggering lab evidence.  Since there's not one lab test that can say if you're positive with Lupus, it makes it more difficult to diagnose.  Best of luck.  Keep us posted.
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An ANA result should be negative. If it is positive, then a physician needs to consider autoimmune issues in his/her patient. A titer of 1:204 is a positive titer and the physician should take into account the patient's symptoms and other factors.  Of course there are false positives, especially with the lower titers. About 3% - 5% of Caucasians may be positive for ANA and it may reach as high as 10% - 37% in healthy individuals over the age of 65. (source: labs tests online). I can tell you that many people who have autoimmune symptoms and who are diagnosed with fibro (29.3%) are getting positive ANA titers... although their titers are usually on the lower side.

You may not agree with my opinion I wrote above. But it is just one woman's opinion and the links above were the latest research that has been presented to rheumatologists and other physicians at autoimmune conferences around the world. You may have heard about antibiotics being prescribed for patients who have rheumatoid arthritis (links below) ? So this information (infections in autoimmune conditions, CFS & fibromyalgia) is new but IMO definitely worth checking out.

links:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1005299

http://arthritis.about.com/cs/antibiotic/a/antibiotictreat.htm
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P.S. ~ You're right. Nobody can tell this poster that her kidney infection lead to autoimmune issues... nobody can prove it. I just wasn't surprised to read this from the poster... I did agree with her that it can certainly happen. (in my opinion, but of course !  ; ^ )   )
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691983_tn?1266808432
i do have a biofim infection with my kidney disease!! and now i have a autoimmune disease. and i do have proof of that!!!!      It is clear from the work from 1996-2000 at Cambridge University in England that every so called autoimmune disease was shown to be driven by infection.  The majority of the infections were found to be viral in nature.  A very important piece of this puzzle was not available unti 2003.  In this year the genome project showed that 35% of the gene deck is virus and these viruses can be expressed by chemical insult.  When they are expressed, there will be a viral infection in the cell. The immune system recognizes the aberrant virus gene and seeks to destroy that cell. What happens when tens of billions of our brain, nerve or other cells have been tweeked by some chemical insult?  

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I agree that in a perfectly healthy patient, the ANA should not be present at all.  But there are other factors to consider.  In all my work, I have yet to see a physician pursue or be concerned about an ANA of less than 1:80 (he may pursue other illnesses, but he will rule out Lupus typically).  Labs all over the world consider that titer to be "normal."  The factor of false positives MUST be considered.  Most physicians I have spoken to about low ANA levels, even 1:80 results, have indicated the number of "false positives" observed in this particular test.  You will never see a "false negative" but "false positives" occur frequently.  That is why rheumatologists don't blink an eye to anything lower than a 1:80.  In my dealings with numerous rheumatologists both personally and professionally, only 1 out of the dozens of them I have discussed this with have explored a 1:80 reading further.  Many of them stated that they would re-test the patient and follow the patient annually at that point, but they would not go any further in their explorations of Lupus.  The only reason they would continue to follow the patient over the next few years is because there is a possibility that Lupus could develop later in life. That doesn't mean that the rheumatologist wouldn't explore other autoimmune diseases that don't require a positive ANA because that is typically the next step (along with researching things such as heavy metals and infectious diseases).

I want to also clarify that I, in no way, wanted to sound abrupt in my post.  Like many of us, I've done tons of personal research, but this is also my profession.  I have access to literally thousands of physicians through my job and have reviewed tons of files.  I have had the opportunity to discuss the subject of Lupus with countless numbers of rheumatologists, many of whom are well known for their work and research.  So I just don't want to leave the impression that I'm spouting out the mouth and haven't done a lot of research. It's literally my job and my bread and butter to know about this.  It's also very personal for me since I've suffered with the disease for so long.  I used to run a support group, for many years, for women with Lupus.  In my years of listening to other women report on their personal experiences, none of them have ever said that a rheumatologist took a low ANA titer seriously.  Now, that doesn't mean that these women accepted it for truth because they are in serious pain and have been suffering; they want answers. And they shouldn't stop researching and fighting to find the answers.  But finding a rheumatologist who will accept that titer and diagnosis Lupus is very rare; I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not typical in the profession.

A titer of 1:204 is definitely positive, no doubt about it and should be considered along with the patient's symptoms.  In no way was I trying to imply that it was anything other than that.  The only other point I was making was that a very high titer is not indicative of the SEVERITY of the disease or indicative of the way the patient should be "feeling" at the time; it is simply a positive marker that, when considered with the other symptoms, should be taken seriously and used as a diagnostic tool.  Some rheumatologists have told me that their sickest patients had lower ANA titers (not below 1:80, but you get the point), while some other patients with extremely high titers appeared much healthier.  That was my point in addressing the high titer.  Yes, that's positive, and yes, it should be used as a check-point in evaluating a Lupus diagnosis.  

As far as my disagreeing with your statement about the kidney condition causing the autoimmune disease.... as I mentioned previously, I don't disagree that it's positive.  But I do disagree with anybody who could tell somebody definitively (even if it's your opinion) that "that your autoimmune condition is coming from the infection from your kidney condition."  That statement is a statement of diagnosis and absolution, and nobody (not even the best doctor around) can make that statement right now.  

Anyway, just wanted to say again that I don't want to sound abrupt or anything.  We all have our own opinions based on different types of research and information.  
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As I said, I agree with your statement. Looking at the post now, I was probably having a brain fog moment (typical) and left out IMO (in my opinion).

Its all good.. have a great day !
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168348_tn?1379360675
I have seen with my own two daughters that anything that disrupts their system in the way of an infection or virus can lead to reactive arthritis which is autoimmune.  Ijust wanted to throw that out as my 2 cents as oftentimes an infection can spur on other things to happen within the body such as a reactive type of arthritis to kick in or an asthma to flare.

I'm not a researcher and unable to validate other than what our Pediatric Rheumy has told us in her way of her opinion, but wanted to jump in with my 2 cents with this experience of autoimmune and infections.

My daughter was confirmed to have post streptococcal reactive arthritis due to the direct result of an untreated bacterial infection someplace in her body by tests taken called anti-dnase-b antibodies.  She was negative ANA.

Not sure if this info helps or hinders but wanted to share as it came to mind.

I think there's been a great exchange of ideas among all of us .... WOW!

C~
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592774_tn?1325397342
My husband and his family was told by their MD that his father's Lupus was triggered by a heart attack. This was back in the late 70's. I personally believe that we do not understand the workings of our bodies enough to understand how the systems interact and test for relationships.  Is
I think everyone was offering their opinions here and we don't have to worry about anyone thinking we are diagnosing each other. :~) This is a patient support community. We are all here to bounce ideas around and share our opinions. Bounce on!
Nancy
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489228_tn?1291535054
am afraid that you totally misunderstood my comment....

like with IC some swear it is all bacterial when you clear up the infection the IC will also go away... not necessarily.  HOwever we know that stress in our bodies increase mast cells and histimine,and these things have been scientifically proven to effect autoimmune diseases.  The damage done to the body, causing it to attack itself can remain even long after a kidney infection.

Last year I found an article that even showed one time of diabities was linked to chronic kidney infections.  To say that is true in every patients would be false, however I know personally a little more about the situation so the statement above was only an acknowledgement, that her biofilm infection which she has documented with her own doctors can contribute to the condition.  Whether as a trigger to cause it or to keep things stirred up or inflammed in the body.

Only recently in research did doctors realize that cervical cancer was caused by the HPV virus.  Medicine is just beginning to truly understand the effects and potential that bacteria and viruses have in our bodies.  That is not to say again in any way that once a person has a condition that antibiotics are going to cure everything.

Shelly
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691983_tn?1266808432
THANK YOU SHELLY!!! IT IS A CHRONIC INFECTION THAT I HAVE IN MY KIDNEYS.IT'S A BIOFILM INFECTION!! THANK YOU AGAIN SHELLY!!
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Wow... !  You know since I have CFS (after a severe bout with mono)... I know what happened to me and have been researching infections since. In my case, I had immune dysfunction and now I have a high ANA titer (autoimmune issues).

I remember once watching Mystery Diagnosis. On the episode, they interviewed a woman who had MS and she claimed that it was after she stepped on a needle. I thought to myself, "well that sounds odd" and then they interviewed her neurologist... he had a theory as to why that happened.

Best to all,

PlateletGal
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691983_tn?1266808432
what was his  theory ??
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168348_tn?1379360675
me, too, wondering what is his theory .. a minor trauma started the wheels in motion ?

C~
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489228_tn?1291535054
Hmmm, was the theory based on nerve impulses or the fact that bacteria
where allowed to penetrate into the blood stream with the pin?

In studying microbiology we have a kids book that shows the bacteria on the tip of a needle,,,creepy

my daughter works for a vet and used needles are the most scary.  Esp since accidents do happen, esp removing a IV needle etc,

I would love to hear what the theory was and what type of needle she stepped on, just a sewing needle, rusty, or used etc.

I personally know that all my illness increased DRAMATICALLY after botched stone surgery, where the operatoring room was not cleaned and halfway through they realized the instruments were not sterile!  I got a bad hospital infection that was not properly treated because everyone was soo afraid of lawsuits etc.  My Doctor and I believe because I had all the stones before the surgery that the bacteria went and set up a biofilm within those stones. I did not have the chronic kidney pain at all till after the surgery.  I had mild IC symptoms but nothing like I deal with now either.

If we do not hear back about the theory... I hope someone will personally pm Platelet Gal I know unless I check the add to watch list box in a thread I often miss out on the new comments!

Shelly
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I know this may sound strange to some, but I think a lot of my health issues where from Graves disease/hyperthyroidism that went improperly diagnosed and untreated for 6 months and it caused havoc on my entire immune system.

I did have the thyroid removed back in 1994, but for the last two years i have had health issues that doctors & tests can not figure out.

Here is my list of infections/symptoms for the last two years

Weight loss (30lbs in the last year) - Never feel full when I eat. Constantly crave meat and salty foods.

Insomnia (had that since hyperthyroidism) Can go 36hrs without sleep and NOT a problem.

Constant urination (IC) diagnosed by having cystoscopy & biopsy done.

Infection of the submandibular gland (sialenditis- had to remove entire gland) Antibiotics did not kill infections.

Eagle syndrome ( had to surgically remove calcified ligament)

Abdominal mass/turmor (etiology?) unable to biopsy (location) to rule out cancer so will have to see oncologist

Abscess in left buttock (took a month to get rid of infection) K. pneuomiae, Streppocoulous (sp) Was lanced and drained. Had to use 3 different types of antibiotics to kill infections.

Oral thursh- used 3 different types of antiboitics to kill infection. Had infection for four months.

Sensitive to most anitbiotics. Presciption sleep medication.

Night sweats, but cold during the day.

Muscle/joint pains on thighs and arms.

Kidney pain. / Bladder pain.

Dry eyes (bulging never went away that was caused by hyper/graves) The right one always turns red.

Those are my past health issues and current issues. I will say until the day I die, my body was rewired due to graves disease...
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691983_tn?1266808432
well i have one diagnosis so far.fibromylgia (fibromyalgia) thats all my mussel and joint pain.i got this diagnosis from a rheumatoloist to day!he gave a lot of info on it and says cause not known ,but linked to infections and other illnesses. he also totally  agrees it is coming from my biofilm infection. he was inpressed with shelly info i took a long thank you shelly! he wants me to get in right away with physical therapy and do  aqua therapy. he also ran more blood test to rule out other things and check my kidney fuction befor putting me on any anti inflammatorys.he was a great dr. and really listen to me.thank you god.so the ana they ran they where thinking lupus he dosen't think i have it but still running other test too that will take a few weeks for them i guess.i'm very happy the have a name for my new pain anyhow! thanks mskluv
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489228_tn?1291535054
I am just soo glad you have a doctor that is willing to listen and help you.  That in in itself helps soo much!  I do hope that you are feeling better soon with the new treatments.
I am glad I was able to help!

Shelly
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so, is it not to far fetched to say that if you have msk it can lead to autoimmune diseases??? is there common knowledge that if you have msk you will have ????(other than IC)
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Avatar_f_tn
i came to this forum looking for the same answer. i also have msk (dx in 08) and since nov. 11 i have been dx with fibro, osteoarthritis, herniated disks in neck & lower back, spinal stenosis, pre glaucoma, iron overload and a few others. i'm only 43 yr old and i am being told i am to young for these things to happen. i do wonder if there is a link between the msk and autoimmune disease since my kidneys don't work properly.
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