Should I give up

[chickamin]

I am 58 and since 2005 have been dealing with bad knees I had total left knee replacement and the right needs to be replaced but have been told I will have to learn to live with it esp. the chronic pain. My trouble is I won't except any of it as I have always been outgoing esp, love rugged outdoors. With only about a 65 flex in left knee I cannot do the things I love such as ride a bike or even get on a horse. Walking has become harder so daily hikes are out.I keep thinking I still can do all this stuff and keep trying, To realize its no use will only send me into a deep depression again. I have just managed to take myself off depression drugs,effexor xr and citalopram and do not want to go back on. Is this a lossing battle for me? Trying to be normal and knowing that I am really messed up but for me giving up is to die at least that is how I feel. Ive have had psychothearpy for over 3 months and been on effexor xr 375 mg and citalopram 90mg for over a year but do not like clouding my mind with anything now they tell me I have an over active thyroid and at risk of other health factors if I don't get that cleared up at the same time waitng months for a appointment with a specialist to see if there is any help for the knee. Yes the drugs helped but was it all a false feeling and nothing getting solved?

[Roger Gould, M.D.]

No, you should not give up, but you should also be realistic and find a way to work around whatever can't be changed...for example, substitute exercise like swimming, rowing, kayaking, sailing, etc.......We all suffer some of these indigities of the body as we get older, but there is plenty of life left to live..

[chickamin]

I do try to be  realistic, its just sometimes not just as easy as it seems but I do understand your answer and do appreciate your time. Thankyou

[Jaquta]

Waiting lists can be ridiculously long.
There is a book called, Catastrophe of living, (or something similar) by John Kabat-Zinn.  He uses meditation as a way to help people better manage their pain.  That may help with the pain aspect.

I am actually really surprised with the lack of range of motion you have in your knee.  I would have expected more.  I guess I am rather ignorant about such matters.  Would physiotherapy help?  It sounds like a mechanical thing.

With regards to the activity, I agree with the doctor, but are there ways you could adapt the activity.  For example, if you can't get on the horse by yourself, could you ask for help?  Many people with disabilities ride horses, why not you too?
I was just wondering whether there were another expert forum here where you could get advice on your knee(s).

It is often said that drugs only manage symptoms but don't cure the problem.  Sometimes meds are necessary though so that we can at least try to start addressing issues.  Sometimes we can be too depressed or too anxious to do that alone, at least to begin with.

A tandem bike probably wouldn't work, would it?

Your own doctor may be able to help you problem-solve some of your issues.  My GP often encourages me to find ways around my disabilities in order for me to participate.

J

[chickamin]

I quess the hardest part for me is trying so hard. I grew up in a family with 6 kids and my dad was killed when I was 7. I had the responsibilty of helping raise younger siblings,my mom had very little and was constantly depressed. Back then there was no help for her so I guess The more I could help out will the better for her. I did'nt mind but grew up pretty much a loner never asking for help with anything and feeling my only real purpose in life was to help others any way I could. I feel quilty even today to ask or try to get help. And when I run across those who tell me to give up or get a new life or just go on do something else,well it is pretty hard at times to deal with. I am not used to any one helping me and after putting alot of trust in a doctor and his staff who promised so much help on this knee and then just walked out on me, leaving me no help and nowhere to go, yes I became pretty depressesd. I had always been the one to help others and now I  needed help and found out the medical field could'nt be trusted as it was all about money. This left me feeling pretty much a real outcast ,with noone to ever trust again and this knee maybe I have no chance to ever get better because a top surgeon who did it is backed by all around here and no it could'nt of been his fault so There must be something wrong with me so I was sent to a psychologist who tried to convince me It was all my fault and it was I who had to except it all after all the promises I would be totally better with this surgery.. Comming to medhelp was a big step for me as I still have a love for all and the desire to help all yet so close to becomming that alone and lost person esp. now after being hurt so much by those I felt really did care. Did'nt mean to rattle on here but its been a long haul and I've been to alot of doctors and only My PD seems the only one trying to help but lately I get the feeling he wishes I would just go away.

[Jaquta]

You sound a lot like me in some respects.

That must have been really difficult for you and your family to have lost your father so young.

I can relate in that I took on a lot of responsibility for looking after my younger brother (until my older sister got jealous and snatched that responsibility).  I also felt I had to protect my younger brothers and sister from things in our family environment.  I felt I had to grow up young.  My mother was depressed and anxious a lot and made threats regarding her life.  The most comforting thing for me during my childhood seems to have been snuggling against cold concrete blocks at night when I went to bed (we lived in our garage).  My family (parents) made sacrifices for us but I believe they made many poor decisions and actually sacrificed us and our well-being.

I felt the same way asking for help too.  I would rather walk 40 km than ask anybody I knew, going in the same direction, for a ride.  I think in some respects I was too proud to ask for help and perhaps too arrogant to acknowledge and accept my weaknesses.  It is OK to ask for help or what you need.  I am getting better at asking for help (or perhaps shifting responsibility).  This is how I cope with things.

I think we work so hard to take on roles that aren't ours or don't belong to us that we lose ourselves.  I think if we were doing what we were meant to be doing then life wouldn't be such a hardship or chore (despite us not minding driving ourselves to do the work and take on the responsibility).  I think ascertaining our purpose and direction are important (important for us and our health and well-being).

Comments such as get a life or get over it are rarely very constructive.  People I know speak about change a lot -but you don't change, we can't see you changing, etc.  I find the negativity and pessimism drives down my mood further and severely affects my motivation.

I still have a lot to say but have a GP and psychology appointment to attend.
I'm sorry for starting this and not finishing it.  I'll talk later.

J

[chickamin]

Hi ya it sounds like you understand and life was much alike with us, yes I would be glad to hear the rest. Psychology, I too majored in it though you did'nt sat it was a major. Wait to hear from you

[Jaquta]

Hey
I didn't mean I was a T or anything like that -far from it.  I'm an uneducated person working on her parents farm (which I'm not getting paid for).  My understanding of psychology (and psychiatry to a degree) and also myself (largely), has only come about through my experiences within the mental health services.
If I weren't so dysfunctional I may have considered a career as a psychologist (or maybe even a psych nurse.  Maybe not.)

What I meant to say, or communicate, was that I was going to see my GP and T.  I've been seeing my GP weekly for what seems like forever and this is about my third therapy session with this new T.  The visits have left me feeling exhausted.  Therapy is a joke in just about every sense of the word.  I'm unimpressed.

Do you find your psychology degree helps you much with dealing with your issues?
My therapy has been so up and down I've often wondered if it would be better to go through that learning process and analyze myself and my own issues.
I guess it's a bit like doctors who shouldn't treat themselves.  Perhaps it's a little too subjective and perhaps intense?

That's appalling that the doctor and his staff would treat you that way.  
I also wish it didn't sound so familiar.  I had problems with my breathing so went to an A and E clinic.  I was sent home with a preventer inhaler (which I was later told would take two weeks to become useful) and a reliever which was useless.  I was barely breathing and my family were told they should have called an ambulance.  Idiot doctors who shift responsibility and don't assess properly in the first place.

Not all doctors are inept and incompetent though and some even show genuine concern for their patients.
Just for the record, I feel the doctor here is a good one.  I feel, humble in a sense too.

I guess physical disabilities can affect us as much as emotional ones.  I am beginning to think though, that being 'balanced' may minimize the total disability.  I thought I had developed a bias towards some with physical disabilities because their disability is more visible therefore more acceptable.  It's been hard having emotional difficulties and being rejected by health professionals, etc.  At least with a physical issue people show more empathy and understanding (I guess that doesn't always equate to tolerance though).  We're complex creatures.

Doctors, T's, etc often do that.  They feel helpless at being unable to help us so they make us the problem.  We, as patients, often accept that responsibility (blame) but it is not always our fault.  Some people have such great big ego's they struggle to get past their own failures.

When I was sectioned and in the psych ward the psychiatrist kept telling everyone he was world renown.  Whatever.  He was so busy with his own stuff (that he was so great) he was neglecting his patients and forcing his values onto them.  It's hard being in a vulnerable position when professionals choose to abuse their power.  At least the doctor here doesn't seem to presume too much about people.  It's just such a radically different approach from what I have experienced.  Good doctors do exist.

Have you thought about getting a second opinion regarding your knee?
Having a T do that must have been very invalidating and hurtful too.  I would be sorely tempted to get a new T.

Medhelp has been a great source of comfort and support.  It has also been a great place to vent and I have had excellent advice from the experts here -Dr Gould in particular.  I should stop with the endorsements or the poor man will float away because his head is so big.

I've been hurt indirectly by a surgeon.  I feel that because he has so many responsibilities and demands placed on him he can't give 100% all of the time.  He's a great surgeon, and person, but patients get fobbed off to registrar's because he has so many obligations.  This has affected my health care.  I refuse to have follow-up care and tests.  He should have taken the time to explain.  I haven't had a proper appointment with him since before surgery.  This is a touchy subject for me and I'm still angry.

I've often felt that T's wished I weren't there or would go away.  They get deeply offended by comments like those though.

Sometimes we just need to vent.  If it helps, do it.  Sometimes writing things down helps us to process them.

What are you thinking or doing about your activity at the moment?

J

[chickamin]

My missunderstanding,sorry. Ya to some extent being a psychology major help at least I can understand what a psychologist is trying to get out of you when you see them and yes I know what they are thinking and at times I spend time playing the same game on them though I don't mean to, its just normal to do. It really fustrates them though. Got to sign off I'll be back

[chickamin]

back, mostly I have never liked putting lables on anyone or them putting them on me. With psychology there is just so many lables to name a condition but I feel everyone is different or his or her own self and its not fair to put every one in the same individual classes when there are millions of people and not so many psychological terms. As it is with me I have had psychologist say they can't really say I am this way or that, also I have had them stop a session and get mad saying Your the patient here not me. With one Dr. in an hour long session I had him talking about his life and feelings for 45 minutes before he realized what was happening. I learned alot about him and his life by then,so it just does'nt work out so good with sessions for me but I have actually helped them more. So yes I guess it does help me a little to have studied it.As far as getting a second opinion yes I have. One doctor told me I needed the whole knee redone but it will take even more of a specialist then just an orthapedic surgeon as I need an appointment to see a surgeon who does revised surgery. I have an appointment to see one in Sept. The appointment was made over 4 months ago,it just takes that long to get in.Then I still don't know if they can help me as I may have waited for nothing.One thing people forget is doctors are people themselves and even they have problems. I never meant to put any of them in an uncomfortable spot but it just happened.I think sometimes people exspect too much from doctors but then feel if a person thinks enough of himself to become a doctor then they better be good enough to be able to help people and deal with every situtation that might come up as yes people do exspect it of them. Yes there are alot of good doctors out there but then there are those who start to look at the money end of it more than helping someone then get sloppy at their work making alot of people suffer.So I have decided it best to be aware of that fact and to never trust anyone totally esp. after this knee where they would not help me and did not care. Its I who has to spend the rest of my life hurting and dissabled from it and then they tell me to learn to live with it. At least I have a strong faith in God and can forgive them all for their wrong doings though it still don't make any of it right. I agree that medhelp has been good, a place to vent as you say it but I too am aware of the fact all of this is recorded and a file kept on us all,like a watch list. But there is no privacy left in a world such as ours. I just hope that who ever reads all of whats on medhelp perhaps can too gain some good knowledge for the better of all mankind. Good hearing from you

[Jaquta]

My T said they 'fish' when making interpretations.  It's useful to know that we aren't as open book as we may feel.  It gives me an added sense of security anyway.

Some people confuse having a label as being a label.  When we lose ourselves and our identity in the label it can make life difficult and painful.
I heard one story where a patient substituted the disorder for her name.  How sad is that?

Not so many names either.  Many of us have the same name also, that doesn't mean we're the same though.

Maybe you're using your knowledge to avoid being labeled?  I thought I could do this, avoid being labeled, by reading and perhaps masking or ?manipulating symptoms.  I wasn't very successful with this though.  I have a problem with being too honest (perhaps not always but most of the time).  Back then, I think I was way too dysfunctional too.

I can over-analyze T's too.  I was curious about one of the expert's behaviors (not Dr Gould's) and I had to make a conscious effort to step back and respect both his privacy and the boundaries he set for his forum.  I'm interested in the content and the conversations so that detracts from my need to know (and to give advice).

I probably use to deflect too but now I really value therapy time so I am less inclined to acknowledge their needs.  I even feel resentful when they go away because I feel I should ask how their break, etc was.  While it may keep them motivated and interested I feel it doesn't help me much.  OK, so I'm selfish.

What about using that time to work on your own issues?  What are you so afraid of?  That people will see that you're capable of being vulnerable too?

You will have answers and they too are important.  I hope the delay doesn't affect any possible alternate solution.

I never use to view doctors as people but more as objects, I guess, fulfilling a role.  My GP use to point out that he was human and could make mistakes too.

Doctors should be aware of their limitations.
I just had an oncology appointment earlier (which I had intended to cancel but didn't) and while I was bemoaning the system, etc she politely said they have 15 minute allotted appointment slots and also defended registrar's level of competency.  I accept that some are excellent but some really need to work on their people skills and the accuracy of the information they are imparting to the patient.

I think many of us take for granted just how vulnerable we actually are.  We're resilient but we can also be quite fragile.

Perhaps your doctor needed to clarify the expected outcome and potential risks better with you.

My doctor didn't clarify or check my understanding of the procedure he was going to perform.  He said he would put a probe in here, make an incision there and dissect down to that.  At no time did he tell me he was going to cut my nipple.  I think that was an important detail.  I had more surgery so that was kind of irrelevant.  Not being given important facts which affect the ability to make an informed decision is frustrating (even if you do do your own researching).  I also feel angry when I ask specific questions and they placate my fears only to find they were founded.

You can get sloppy outcomes regardless of whether money is an incentive or not.
I used the word iatrogenic a lot.  That really seems to irk some health professionals.
In my experience those asking for money for their services are sometimes the best.  There is that whole philosophy of if they aren't good enough then people won't call on their services and then they have no income.  People learn to become more people-oriented too.  In my experience that ratio of good to bad is still woefully low.

They hurt you and then tell you to live with it.  It can then become hard to take responsibility for it because we feel so angry, hurt, rejected, violated, etc.

Being right or wrong doesn't help anyone.  It just keeps some of us angry.

It gets a bit scary when they report 7.5 million visitors to the site per month.  I just hope they're not all to the forums I post in.
I've had posts deleted and moved.  I've also said some pretty harsh things.
I use to be a very private person but my health issues have been very public so I figure who cares anymore, what do I have left to hide (quite a lot actually)?
I don't think too many people would keep abreast of what goes on here in all the forums -there're just too many.
What is worse is when other health support group owners/ leaders yabber amongst themselves about individuals.  I don't think that respects either the person or their confidentiality.
At least this is sort of moderated.

I've waffled on again.  Take care.
J

I don't think too many people read my posts anyway.  They are way too long and boring and even confusing.

[chickamin]

Afraid of, afraid of innocent men, woman and children suffering in a world controled by those who don't care about anything but themself and obtaing a world of wealth all to their own.Who want to control everything and don't give a darn who they hurt. Thats what I am afraid of. People who don't care that there is a God who promises that love and a life full of good awaits no matter how much control the bad think they have and no matter how much pain they try to inflect on others. All one has to do is believe and a world of love and beauty opens up before them but no, pride selfishness and who knows what keeps them locked in a world of the unknown spinning as if on a turning wheel out of control with no way of getting off before it crashes all to hell. One can't see the beauty in a small seashell laying all alone on a beach on a warm spring day or a rock painted by all natures colors. No they only see beauty as they lust after gold and dimonds and their greed makes them corrupt and just as evil as those trying to destroy them. Ya I am afraid of a world gone mad which is about to destroy itself and everybody in it and there is not a darn thing I can do to stop it because I am labled nuts because I beleive in something far more beautiful than mans riches as I believe in the beauty of love,carring and the love and salvation which comes from God! Because I find more wealth in that tiny worn seashell or the beauty natures has all around me. Or because I care about even the bum or drunk or homeless out on the street. I hurt deep inside to think of all the hurt and pain comming in this world. It is worth more than all the gold in the world to see a child smile or to see food in the empty stomechs of those who go hungry day after day while others complain something don't taste good enough so throw it away. Yes and I must be afraid to walk out in public because I don't feel a part of this world, that must be it. No I don't want to be apart of a world so messed up that life is nothing more than the smashed body of a ant on the street. To me life is God's most presious gift to man. God gave us a beautiful body and a beautiful earth and we have destroyed them both. Hows that for venting and how is that for fear, fear for a world gone mad and fear for all the people in it. Iam glad that I am not of this world but then you must know the word of God to understand that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jaquta]

They're extreme situations though even though they are becoming more prevalent.  For the average person though we seem to manage OK.  Sometimes a minority need to be hurt to help the whole.  Sometimes, with the resources we (our countries, etc) have, we can't meet the needs of all.  I fall into a minority group within the mhs system and aren't able to have my needs met.  Not that others are either because they get medicated or given ect and then get shoved out the door.  Who is better off, I wonder?  In an ideal world things would be different.  

So who has hurt you and how?

I would possibly be one of those people.  Not that I mean to be bad or set out to not believe.  A belief in a God isn't that simple for me.  It is one of many things I struggle with or have struggled with.
I went to an Anglican school but I feel a greater affinity to Baptist.  That is not through an understanding of religion, more through a perception.  I have enjoyed sermons and singing, etc.
I looked at returning to church where I could participate (and perhaps have some needs met) but people wanted that commitment to God.  I was pressured and weak and gave in to them.  I can't accept religion on those grounds because it goes against things I believe in.  It made me feel dirty when that commitment which was sacred to me and something to do when I did believe, was forced when I still had doubts.
My brother is probably a strong Atheist.  He has shown us documentaries that say Christianity is based on Egyptian history and folklore.  I should have said shown my parents.  I haven't seen much of his stuff on religion, war, stone henge, etc.  Or the Titanic.  That's another myth (conspiracy).  That's another example of greedy wealthy people.  Many people believe it was the sister ship, the Olympic, that sunk.  A ship which had many mishaps so was 'disguised' as the Titanic in an effort to claim insurance.  It just wasn't suppose to have gone so fast and so far away from assistance.  Neil Armstrong walking on the moon was a load of crock as well.  People in positions of power try and exert control all the time.  Some do it for the good of everyone, some don't.

We had our kitchen bench top installed a couple of weeks ago by two South African guys.  That had a lot to say about their previous country of origin.  They say many wish the country would go back to Apartheid as they had more freedom then.  They had horrific stories to share.  Stories of women being raped and then beaten within inches of their lives with male members forced to watch then tied up by their feet and immersed head first into pots of boiling water.  What is wrong with some people?
You would be pleased to know that they are deeply religious.  One struggled after having ptsd from the war but between his mother and his church leader he made it back.

Greed affects many of us and plenty of people take our environments and health/ life, etc for granted.  I do.  And I have a strong appreciation for the outdoors.  My own personal struggle has confused a lot of things.

It's the innocent people who're hurt that is part of the tragedy.

I've seen a couple of episodes of, Secret Millionaire (or some similar title).  Many people just have no idea.  Sometimes it is also us, the drunk or the homeless on the street, etc that need to make changes.  It is not always someone elses fault.

Why would you be fearful?  Do you not trust in God's plan for us?  Do you not believe that everything happens for a reason?

I get your anger or that you're angry.  What are you doing to make a positive difference?  One person can make a difference.

Are your emotions generated by your sore leg and your inability to experience nature as you have done in the past?

I think it can be too burdensome to worry about everyone.  I personally don't see that as benefiting anyone.  Least of all you.  If anything, it shuts you down.

How are you managing without the anti-depressants and what's happening with the over active thyroid?

J

[chickamin]

venting is good for some people I quess. I told you what upsets me and who has hurt me don't matter to anyone but myself. Not trying to be disrespectful but I did'nt come to medhelp to spend my time venting about anything. I try to put hurt in the past and try to learn from it so as not to hurt again, at least not as much. The point being I am not going to waste my time complaining to a stuip computer which is one of satins tools although Gods people have fun using it too as long as they understand what they are doing. Truth is I don't go to church were all the want to bes are. I am a born again christain, God don't need four walls but if you know him he is everywhere.Gods church is his people. I am not here in this world to try and change everything for everyone besides if one person can change things then I believe that one person be God. I am tired of people trying to tell me I can do this or that as thats for me to decide what I want to do. If I think that something I might do can help someone then I will try to do that,if I can but other that that I don't think what I do will make much difference. Take care

[chickamin]

Yes it angers me about my knee, why should'nt it?But it does'nt stop me from trying to do what I want. I am tired of people telling me to get a good easy chair and a good tv because thats where I am going to be the rest of my life, esp., when I know they can fix this knee as I have talked to others who have had the same problem and they were fixed.Iam beginning to feel somewhat normal again being off the depression meds. They helped me when I needed them so I've no complaints there. But as a life long thing its not for me as I am too much into natural things and chimical altering mind drugs are not natural at all. I care about people and have done so all my life as I said Life is a prescious thing. All life is given by God so yes I value it more than all the gold and wealth the universe has. Yes I realize everything happens for a reason and yes I believe in Gods plan and I also believe that there is a reason for everyone you meet. As I believe in being kind to the stranger on the street as tommorrow they might be your friend,but also trust no one as tomorrow,even today they might be your enemy. Life ,living it is'nt so complicated jsut as long as you follow a few rules, like trust no one, harm no one and don't tell all you know. Think of the wonderful world it would be if every child could grow up knowing everyone cared! But, it will never be that way until God comes back to make it so and yes I long for a world like that instead of one like we now have, Am I being realistic ? In a christains mind yes.

[Jaquta]

Learning from past experiences is good -something I'm not particularly good at doing.

No offense taken.  I only came to medhelp to get information about breast symptoms I was having at the time.  10 months later I am still here.  This site has helped me heaps.  It has given me more than I could ever have anticipated.

Are cars bad, are manufactured foods and medications bad?  Is anything actually good?

I find a lot of the time it is the hypocrites who go to church.  My aunt and uncle go and sit in the front pew and they are the worst.  It is about show and not substance.  I find that a lot of people can be very superficial.
I have found many deeper and more grounded people here.
It can work many different ways though (and it is judgmental judging those who judge).

You're right, it is your right and your decision to choose your own path and direction.

Everybody makes a difference!!

It absolutely should anger you.  It is best to use that anger to do something positive about it though.  My GP keeps (or kept?) telling me that anger is destructive.  I think he was right.  Anger can make you extremely bitter and take you further away from recovery or the choices you need to be making.  Been there, done that.
There is a saying, mental health either makes you bitter or better.  
What do you choose?

You need to tell those people to back off as their comments are not helpful.  That's reassuring to know that others have had similar problems fixed.

I believe one should be kind, considerate and respectful regardless of whether one ever meets them again.

I have found that not trusting is more about a person not trusting themself.  If you feel confident about yourself and your ability to cope then let people throw things (challenges) at you.  I think worry about yourself (how you deal with situations) first and worry about others next.  You can't change anyone else.

I wouldn't choose to live my life by those rules.  I have spent a lifetime of not trusting others -it's extremely damaging and lonely.  Do you drive?  Driving requires a degree of trust.  Trust that others will stay on their side of the road, etc.  Don't tell all you know?  It pays to be sensitive with what you do choose to share with some people.  Again, if you trust in yourself it shouldn't matter what you disclose.  Not that I'm an expert on self-disclosure -far from it.  I actually find sharing enriching.  Gets rid of some of the clatter (unimportant things) too.

It seems extremely unrealistic.  I don't see it happening in my lifetime.  Who knows?  With everybody killing everybody else it could be a possibility.

Take care
J

[chickamin]

Good morning, I do enjoy hearing from you. It is good to talk with those who have an open mind. I guess my biggest thing is that I can't understand those who hurt others. I don't like to see people cry or hurt in any way and those who suffer and I guess in a way we all do but why then go out of ones way just to hurt another are bring any kind of missery their way? Yes every day I cry for those who are suffering and hurting esp. when it does'nt have to be so. There is enough pain and tears in this world without wanting to make more. I just can't see it any other way. I really do know how Jesus felt when he knelt in the garden and prayed to his father for all mankind as the tears rolled down his face. I quess it would be hard to understand esp. if you don't feel like this but I'd rather care than be one who just feels it too much of a personal burden. I guess maybe you would know what I feel if you too knew Gods love. That is why I can forgive those who have hurt me and that is why tears fall when I think of them because I know that deep down inside if they can only overcome the greed they have then perhaps they could become better people themselves. Yes I love all of them thats what hurts so bad is I want so for them to be saved as I do everyone and to know I have done all I can but there is still prayer so I can't give up on them or anyone.As it is with the life of an animal so presious also and God left their welfare up to us. Yes I eat meat but not like I use to as I was raised on deer and elk and seafood as my dad was a commercial fisherman and a good hunter. Yes I had to learn to hunt and kill to help feed siblings but I did what I had to and for each animal I killed I asked its forgiveness and Gods too. But I understood why I had to do it.Its not like those who take great sport in hunting and waste the meat just for the throphey or those who kill animals for the fun of it. This is who I am and yes I believe in God and yes I believe some day I will find that better place where every child can grow up knowing every one cares. Perhaps there is not such a place but as long as I hope for it, as long as it gives me hope of a stop to all the madness,lust,greed,suffering,pain and hurt, maybe just maybe there is some hope. Yes I do try to find interests and things to take my mind off it all but that is where my heart is and if it causes me stress better than worry about my own needs.Yes I do wish for all my own pain to go away, yes I do wish I could still do the things I love to do most and no I won't give up trying to be better its just to know that the help is out there if you are the well to do person who society feels fits in and therefore deserves it. Am I that minority, no because with Gods love I have more than all the rich people in the world, the universe and beyond is all mine someday, in other words what more do I need as long as love rules my life and God is love!!!!

[Jaquta]

I have extremely strong views about a lot of things.  I can be as open or as closed as the next person.
I am very sensitive to hurt and don't like to see people (or animals, etc) in distress.

Perhaps if you looked at others in the context of their life experiences, maybe that would then at least make you a little more empathetic (sympathetic even) to why they do the things they do.  Often it is because they have been hurt and traumatized themselves.  That doesn't necessarily make it right, or give them the right, to hurt others but it makes it more understandable.

I don't love myself, I don't believe others like me, how am I realistically suppose to love and trust in a God?  I understand it isn't suppose to be that difficult, but it is for me?  Perhaps I am just really ignorant about the issue?
I am fine at looking at things in terms of spirituality.  Spirituality encompassing most positive qualities, etc.  Just not a God.  That doesn't mean I don't give it that name though when I have a dialogue with him (I prefer to view God as a male.  Some people are very particular about the gender of their God).

I just view people in terms of perspective and personal experience.
For example, I had issues with the doctor who threatened me with ect.  I was able to regain a sense of power and control, eventually.  I possibly still hold some anger and resentment but I try and turn it around.  Perhaps, he as a doctor, was doing what he thought was in my best interest?  Perhaps confronting a male Indian wasn't it my best interests?  Although I still had the right to challenge his treatment choices.
In India, someone is given unmodified ect every 90 seconds.  Has that affected how he views and treats things/ people?  I still don't think very highly of him.  I still don't believe someone should force their values or culture onto someone else.  Actually, the mhs do that by labeling people.

People have to learn things themselves sometimes.

Like killing endangered species for the trophy and money.  I feel that is wrong.  I don't get the Japanese and their horrendous whaling either.  Or what some do to animals.  Tie dogs, etc up and then kill them and eat them as delicacies.  It is so different to what I believe and have been brought up with.
I personally wouldn't kill an animal unless there were pretty extreme circumstances.
Dad gave me a knife when I was younger and told me to go and kill a sheep.  No way!  I am not doing that -ever!!  In fact if I had of done that then I probably would have killed people by now.  I am lucky in that respect that I am so sensitive.

Hope is everything.  Without it we become lost.

Probably nothing.  It doesn't mean we can't aspire to be better people today though.

J

[chickamin]

well it sounds like you have a good heart and there is hope for those who have hope.Why did your dad want you to kill the sheep, was it just to see if you would? I see no need to kill animals unless the food is needed or it is an animal gone bad and a danger to people and there is no other way.To kill an animal no its not the same as a human but the life it lives was given to both by God and God permits man to kill animals but not to kill another man, that is the difference and a big difference it is. No I would not kill another not for any reason nor does the thaught come to mind. Its just a no, Harm no one means just that. It is not our right to make such a judgement either but I do believe people who are extremly dangerious should be locked away so as not given the chance to hurt another. Perhaps you are still searching for a meaning to your life and all that exists around you and thats why you don't mind telling things how you see them. Perhaps you are even unsure of your own self is why you leave all possible doors open so as to seek answers that you know not where to find otherwise. Be careful as that can be a risk at times as little do we know about any of whats out there. No I am not afraid, just being careful just as I would be in grizzly country, as yes I have had a Grizzly in Alaska charge me and because I was careful Its I who am still here and not the bear. By the way it was a rough grizzly , and a real danger to people as fish and Game had it marked to kill.Yes it was I who killed it yet it hurt me alot to take its life such a beautiful animal but it was tearing cabins up and not allowing airplanes to land and it was only time before some one would of been killed. Yes I thaught how man was on his territory and that wasn't really fair either and today 20 plus years later it still bothers me.I still feel in a way it was wrong but then how do we go back and take another rd., we don't Life goes on.

[Jaquta]

I guess it was an opportunity.  We possibly needed the meat at the time.  I was happy to cut the meat up once the animal was skinned and gutted, etc and didn't resemble anything remotely living.  My sister was envious and felt she had something to prove so went and did it.  Yuck!
I was more into the chainsaw but Dad wouldn't show me how to use that.  I taught myself once my parents went into town and I was home alone.  I don't recommend doing that though.  It could have been very disastrous.

We had an animal last year that broke its hip and so was put in the freezer.  I couldn't eat poor little Stumpy.  I eat very little red meat these days.

I wouldn't have believed I was capable of homicidal thoughts.  ?Several years ago I became quite unwell and would have gladly killed people.  I was extremely angry about a lot of things.  In that space I don't think anything really matters and I don't think you see the consequences.  I don't care to analyze it at the moment.  Maybe on Thursday when I go to therapy.  There always seems too much to address though.

Should they be locked away?  I think that may isolate the problem but it doesn't strictly limit it.  In my country people were being released on parole and then committing serious offenses.  In an ideal world rehabilitation would be effective or preventative measures and early intervention strategies would be in place (or there would be no offending in the first place).  Our country has even gone crazy and banned smacking as part of good parental correction.  That doesn't stop child abuse.

I think my bad phase came some time around the Uni Tech murders.  It was easy for me to understand how or why this occurred.

I'm not a horrible person.  I don't even like killing flies or slaters on firewood.

I think my lack of discretion is due in part to symptoms I have and also to the fact I have been hurt.  I have had personal diaries given to doctors, etc.  Having a mental health issue seems to make others think I don't deserve privacy or respect.  People push and pry and probe some more.  Many people don't seem to understand what no actually means.  I think hospital can strip you of your dignity and respect.  It can take everything and usually does (and more).
I use to be very quiet and shy.  Probably now I'm a little too out-spoken.  I don't know what verbal diarrhea would indicate?  Maybe a lack of self-respect.  Perhaps any self-respecting individual wouldn't admit to having so many negative thoughts and feelings?

Possibly.  Someone also mentioned some Thich Nhat Hahn stuff which kind of makes one more receptive too.  It is possibly a thirst for learning about the world and new perspectives (which can only benefit my mh issues).  For so long I didn't realize there was more than one path.  Life consists of many.  Some with twists and turns.

We can't change the past.  We may be able to make amendments, etc in some situations but we can't go back and relive moments.  Don't I wish we could change moments in history.

How do we live with guilt and shame?  I think part is understanding that we did the best with what we had, and knew, at the time.

J

[chickamin]

not sure  what is going on, first wrote you a note and some how wiped it out so wrote another and submitted it but don't see it here. Did you somehow pick it up elsewhere? Not feeling well today perhaps I am messing up somehow? well try again later. chickamin

[Jaquta]

Sorry, I haven't seen a note.  That can be extremely frustrating when that happens.  I had a spate of those a while back.

I hope you feel better soon.

J

[chickamin]

Well I will try to start  over. Perhaps your dad was trying to teach you survival methods with the sheep,something he felt might help you in life? Sometimes things like that can be hard. As far as your feelings about harming someone when you were real sick, guess I can't relate to that as all I ever do when sick like that is try to go to sleep and hope it will wear off, And think that if it don't will maybe I just won't wake up,either way at that point what difference? I quess harming someone never has crossed my mind and never will so I can't relate and at that point just want to be left alone by everyone.I was treated for bad depression because of a knee injury that did'nt heal and has left me in alot of pain. I never spent time in a hospital for the depression so can't relate to the type of doctors there but I think it would not be a good thing to experiance either. Almost everyone gets depressed sooner or later in life. Yes the medication helped but not something I want to stay on for life but I think it helped more to have a good doctor who really did care how I was doing. I really do not feel some cases of depression should be labled as mental health but it is! I use to be real shy also but have learned that sometimes it helps to ask questions, I just don't like it when people won't even try to answer sometimes, like they rather ignor you so then what point is there in asking in the first place, maybe its better just to keep an open mind and open ears, learn what you can that way. It seems to work better.

[Jaquta]

Thanks for persevering with your post.  I guess third time lucky.
I don't want to participate in this conversation at the moment.  I am not avoiding, and it is not you or anything you have said or done.  I am struggling with some issues at the moment (plus our kitten is dying) and ... my mood is low and I don't want to talk.
I am really, really sorry and I hope this doesn't hurt you.  I would say still write but I don't want to commit myself to anything.  Others may be willing to engage, I don't know.

Take care.
J

[Jaquta]

Make that past tense, the cat just died.