Hey everyone -
Again (as I always say), I dont know about MS, but with SLE (lupus), there is a major problem with regards to Dx and treatment due to the disease affecting mostly women. If any of you have been on a lupus forum, you will see that there is a HUGE amount of the "Maybe your stressed, emotional, hypochondriac" and alot of "Youre just tired from taking care of your kids. (That statement comes from the fact that the majority of patients are of childbearing years).
In addition, however, the fact that there has been very little advancement in treatment of lupus in 20 years (yes, 20, thats a fact) is due to the fact that most research studies are preformed on MEN. As Daniel Wallace (lupus specialist and author) states in his book (bravely I might add) "The diseases of females are understudied by organized medicine". Thus, not only do lupus patients get dismissed as stressed out by kids (love that one), hormones, depression, or exaggeration, by being a WOMAN, they also have to deal with the fact that very little has been researched on their disease, because it mainly affects WOMEN. Horrible...
In the same breath, however, I must say that almost all the males I know who have lupus, were erroneously told at the beginning that they "couldnt have lupus, only women get lupus"...so, I guess in this instance, they get discriminated against also!!
Just my lurking lupie opinion!!
Love Lauri
Quiche rocks!!I Idon't know how your EMG went, but my doctor stuck that pronged device (without warning mind you) , so hard into my muscles I had to fight the urge to let out a yelp every time he did it. I posted this complaint on another thread, but I'll explain it again, shock, OW, shock, OW, shock OW and on and on. I will NEVER consent to that again. The negative result was a real thrill (sarcasm). I would prefer an LP.
The EMG is a test every Neuro should have done on them. Also is a great money maker for them I hear.
Sally
It is pretty well qccepted that women's complaints are more likely to be dismissed from the beginning than men's, but that misses the whole point. If it happens to you - male or female - it's 100%. No one should be dismissed. For each and every one of us that is condescended to by a "healthcare provider" it is an outrage.
It seems to me, that as soon as a man's complaints are not easily diagnosable, they are also frequently dismissed. The implication of hysteria or malingering seems to have ever bit as great an impact - if not more - for a man. Society gives more stigma to the man whose symptoms are deemed to be born of stress, anxiety, or lack of strength. We have had so many men who have had their self-esteem eroded and felt ever bit as futile as the women, in their search for answers.
I just saw a big study or survey - which I didn't read yet - stating that "Doctors are not Caring Enough." Saw it this morning. I'll see if I can find it again.
As to whether you should admit to depression, these are my thoughts. Any doctor that jumps to lay everything off on depression is going to find something else to blame it on if you don't mention the depression. Withholding that information is detrimental to good care, and what you need to do is move on, or stand and fight. I have often said, "No, I have fought depression for the majority of my adult life. This is not depression. This is different." This will get through to the good doctor who is merely having an off day. But, the truly dismissive doc will do so with any excuse.
"You are depressed"
"You are stressed"
"You just want disability."
"You're a hypochondriac."
"You look fine to me."
"It's just your age."
"My wife had that, and it was just menopause." (In a 28 year old?!!!) And men pause, too sometimes.
These are doctors with whom we are wasting our time and energy. The only solution, I believe, is to move on. Maybe some of them can be brought around by cogent arguments, but, I believe that a patient who appears to know more than they do is highly threatening to this type of doctor. Your efforts to educate them will be wasted, and you still will be no further toward your diagnosis.
"You can not enlighten the unconscious."
Quix
I'll "keep" pondering, not "jeeo" ... my fingers are doing their own thing today!!
Don't make me go Charles Bronson on ya! :-)
I tend to get riled up quicker and cool down quicker than the women that have been in my life.
I don't get weepy though and I definitely don't eat quiche! :-)
Richard
OperaMBA
I just have to say that when I fill out a new-patient questionnaire, I am in a quandry as to whether or not to mark that I have ever experienced depression.
I know that I have; learned to recognize it, developed coping skills, and am willing to ask for help if it should become more than a temporary reaction to a situation.
I don't know that the doctor I'm going to see won't make a snap judgement based on that one "yes", especially when its put as depression/anxiety. I have read chart notes that have pointed to that sort of judgement that were dismissive of my symptoms.
Kathy
Well crafted responses - I think about this quite often. And don't even get me started on how elderly people get treated compared to a younger population of patients.
I do appreciate Bio's observation about men being more emotional than women.
Keep kicking it around - I'll jeeo pondering the big question.
Laura
I'm talking about studies looking into this issue. RSD/CRPS1 is a good example. Of course men also get this treatment, but the question was whether or not this happens more frequently with women, and it does. It's rooted in the assumption that women are "hysterics," dating back a long-*** time.
For the record, there are studies that indicate that when it comes to emotions, men are more likely to exhibit them and to extremes than are women. But there are also studies showing that women process memory formation and emotion through the same brain centers, leading to better recall of events because of the link to emotion. Those of us who teach--especially if we teach biology!--know that coupling emotion and learning is one of the best ways to help students retain information. Of course, we try to make them laugh, not cry, as they learn. Emotion linked to information/experience = better retention.
Anyway...that women are more "emotional" than men is somewhat of a myth developed by, guess who? Depends on the emotion, for one thing, and the level of intensity under consideration.
Bio
I was all fired up on my morning coffee and didn't read all the replies that pointed out the univeral span of this problem, in words better than mine!
I think Shell is right: a good Dr. should be able to get to the bottom of it (whatever "it" is!). I know myself, and others here, put a lot of burden on themselves: "Did I describe that sx well? Did I say too much or too little about this or that?"
The comment Shell makes about ads directed at women is also interesting. Are women dismissed more because doctors figure we just saw too many ads about medications and diseases while watching Lifetime?
I just hope that we all find our way to good doctors, but yikes! It seems like such a difficult path for so many of us!
I too think women are dismissed very often. But, as we know, it absolutely happens to men.
I also think that there is a lot of advertisement where women's health is concerned, warning signs, commercials, etc., however, when you finally decide to go to the Dr. for it to get a good check, it's as if they've not been see the ads, read the articles, etc., (especially where the heart is concerned). I don't understand it, but it does seem disproportionate to me.
Why is this? Do we not describe symptoms very good? Men are more straight to the point? Men may say "my chest hurts." Women may say, "I feel a little pressure in my chest, and then my arm has been hurting, and I feel like I have indigestion sometimes."
Is it that we've dealt w/certain things for so long (monthly stuff) and when we describe the problems we justify particular issues right off the bat and shoot ourselves in the foot? Like TMI (too much information) I just don't know, but I've found myself having difficulty describing symptoms. And wondering if some have this same problem.So, just throwing that out there as food for thought and discussion. A good Dr. with good questioning can get to the bottom of it, order the right tests, if they are gracious enough to do it.
ttys,
Shell
Like Wish, I too will tie my hands and not go too deep into this, but I have one comment I'd like to make.
It may well be true that overall there is a larger percentage of women who are dismissed or told that their sx are of emotional origin.
However, from the many testimonies I've read here and elsewhere, NO ONE is safe from this type of treatment. I mean that regardless of gender, age, position in life, income, education, geography, or any parameter or demographic, it can happen.
Consider that our forum leader is an MD, and as her (very eye-opening) journal entry notes, she went through quite a lot in order to get diagnosed.
We have many other forum members that also demonstrate how even those who you think would be "immune" to dismissal are in fact turned away by doctors and told "it's all in your head."
So while us ladies may again be getting the short end of the stick, I think it is amazing to note the variety of people who share their story about being treated this way.
Wonko out! :-)
I guess I told my neuro (N3) sort of the same thing since I yelled at him for being too chipper that my nerve conduction tests were normal... :-)
Richard
OperaMBA
Yep, I think women are considered too emotional. Thus depression, anxiety, stress is considered before any real diagnosis. Well excuuuuuse me for having feelings!
I almost told my neuro the only stress in my life was him.
Sally :)
Laura,
Puccini, Donizetti and Strauss Jr. too! :-)
Bio,
I have emotions, but only during FSU games! :-) That's when I pull out my foam "Back Call Brick" and throw it at the television! :-) Case in point, this last Saturday!
Worry, anxiety, I don't do much of that, but I have had depression from hell, since 2005. I guess its a neuro-induced thing for me. Although, for me it has been so much serotonin or norepinephrine as much as its been a need for dopamine. When I am not getting a stimulant of some kind, my brain, mood, motivation come to a complete stop.
It all started in 2005.
Richard
OperaMBA
Yes, women are more likely to have nonspecific--or hell, even specific--symptoms attributed to "emotion," "stress," "anxiety," "worry," "depression," etc. and to be dismissed and have a delay in an accurate diagnosis.
Bio
Hi Richard, Yes I know we have a few of you fine men out here with us being shuffled around (I can think of Craig too having such trouble with dx), but I'm just wondering if as a generalization my thoughts might be true. But then you hit a good point of it being "a woman's disease" :-) So Mozart rocks along with Verdi? yep!!!
Wish, I've read just enough of your posts that I think I can guess the tone of your reponse, but I'm interested in a lively thought provoking discussion, so bring it on if you want and if you have the time. I have just gotten back from being at the hospital with my 85 y/o mom who fell today and broke her femur bone - the doctors there already have me riled. By the time they get her to surgery tomorrow I should really be ready to rip some doctors some new ones. See Wish, I have been paying attention to you!! ha ha
I just know the world we try to function in is still male dominated -and the medical world even more so.
Laura
As a data point of imperical evidence, I'd hold myself up as a man who has been treated like an moron by 2 of the 3 neuro's I've seen in the last 7 years. I have a fairly extensive knowledge of science and the human body and an MBA from Wake Forest, so, it's not like I just fell off the turnip truck.
N2 (neuro #2) and number two he was, in the most basic sense, said, after hearing what I had to say "I guess we ought to take you out back and shoot ya" and "most of the people with your story, I would say they are faking" but he gave me some credit for having gone to Wake, since this was in Winston-Salem, where N2 happened to be. What a piece of work this guy was.
Anyway, I would say that most of these non-MS specialists don't get it unless somebody points out a bunch of lesions for them. Goofballs.
On a side note, I had a PCP (who obviously only attended the cliff-notes version of Med school) tell me that MS was only for women.
Frightening stuff.
Richard
OperaMBA
``Mozart (opera-wise) rocketh also!``
Don't do this to me Laura, don't get me started......you want a 1000 page dissertation?