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Men Out There...We Need Your Advice
This is going to date me, but years ago there was a book called "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus."
In this book, it discussed the different ways each gender communicates and how that causes problems.
I believe these differences affect how we are treated by doctors.
DH has pointed out that I get way too detailed about things. For example, yesterday I was later than usual getting home from work. Instead of just saying, "Traffic was bad. I stopped at the store and ran into an old friend I went to high school with," I went into this long story about how I hadn't seen Alice since my class reunion... You get the idea.
That got me to thinking. Have you ever been in a meeting where yes, it was important, but the discussion went on and on and on and ended up going off into other directions and your eyes started glazing over?
Most doctors and neurologists are men. Also, their time is limited. So, if we go in there and go over every single time we've had a tingle or zap, their eyes are going to glaze over too.
I am NOT saying we shouldn't track our symptoms or ask questions. What I am saying is, perhaps we should take a cue from the men out there and be short, concise, and to the point. Be direct. Be confident.
Guys out there, how do you handle your doctor's appointments? Those of you who are diagnosed, when you were going through the diagnostic phase, how did you talk to your doctors? Any advice you can give to us ladies?
I hope this doesn't offend anyone. I really think the gentlemen of the forum can offer us ladies some valuable information. I want to make the most out of my visit to the MS specialist coming up on March 27, and I don't want his "eyes to glaze over."
Thank you very much for reading and thank you in advance to those who reply,
Minnie :)
In this book, it discussed the different ways each gender communicates and how that causes problems.
I believe these differences affect how we are treated by doctors.
DH has pointed out that I get way too detailed about things. For example, yesterday I was later than usual getting home from work. Instead of just saying, "Traffic was bad. I stopped at the store and ran into an old friend I went to high school with," I went into this long story about how I hadn't seen Alice since my class reunion... You get the idea.
That got me to thinking. Have you ever been in a meeting where yes, it was important, but the discussion went on and on and on and ended up going off into other directions and your eyes started glazing over?
Most doctors and neurologists are men. Also, their time is limited. So, if we go in there and go over every single time we've had a tingle or zap, their eyes are going to glaze over too.
I am NOT saying we shouldn't track our symptoms or ask questions. What I am saying is, perhaps we should take a cue from the men out there and be short, concise, and to the point. Be direct. Be confident.
Guys out there, how do you handle your doctor's appointments? Those of you who are diagnosed, when you were going through the diagnostic phase, how did you talk to your doctors? Any advice you can give to us ladies?
I hope this doesn't offend anyone. I really think the gentlemen of the forum can offer us ladies some valuable information. I want to make the most out of my visit to the MS specialist coming up on March 27, and I don't want his "eyes to glaze over."
Thank you very much for reading and thank you in advance to those who reply,
Minnie :)
Best Answer
I have been studying personalities and I have worked with doctors and nurses. Bedside manner is mostly determined by personality. I like the personality test called Hartman color code personality test. It's not overly complicated. Many doctors are "reds," which means they may be brilliant and efficient, but they are often impatient and just want to get to the problem and get it fixed. They like patients who can give the pertinent symptoms and dates and drugs tried and medication history efficiently. They dread the patients that want to spend 2 hours talking things that have nothing to do with the problem. However, not everybody knows what is and isn't pertinent! It's easier if you get a "blue" caregiver type who finds it easy to spend more time and listen and more of a kinder, gentler personality. Yellow personalities are less likely to be doctors because they are more focused on the moment and struggle with patience for long-term goals, and white personalities tend to be better in the laboratory or reading x-rays, something that doesn't tax them with too much human interaction. I believe we are born with our personalities and we either learn to cope with the other personalities to be successful or we find an occupation that keeps us in our comfort zone.
Hmm, very interesting perspective.
I guess in the end we're all iindividuals and while there may be some stereotypical gender behavior, it may have more to do with personality types. I think overall men are more aggressive and blunt, yet there are more women than in previous years that share those traits.
Btw, I am putting the finishing touches on my timeline and will get it posted soon. Want to make it as brief yet concise as possible.
Thank you to all for your feedback,
All the best, Minnie
I guess in the end we're all iindividuals and while there may be some stereotypical gender behavior, it may have more to do with personality types. I think overall men are more aggressive and blunt, yet there are more women than in previous years that share those traits.
Btw, I am putting the finishing touches on my timeline and will get it posted soon. Want to make it as brief yet concise as possible.
Thank you to all for your feedback,
All the best, Minnie
The typical male patient who frustrates doctors is the one who goes in for a checkup and has only mundane questions during the exam ... until the very end, as the doctor wraps it up, stands up and almost makes it out the door. That's where the typical male patient will say, "Just one more thing ..." and THERE comes the patient's biggest concern that he was afraid to bring up. It is often something they are just embarrassed to bring up, like impotence, or something they are scared about, like symptoms of cancer. So the doc almost made it out the door, but he KNOWS this is the biggest issue that is going to turn out to be something big.
That's a very valid point.
The human body is so complex. I understand that it takes time in some cases to figure out what's going on because so many things are mimics of each other.
I guess like the rest of us, doctors like the more clear-cut problem with a clear-cut solution much more than the difficult, time-consuming issues.
I know for me, I would have preferred that whatever this is I have could have simply been determined by an examination and a blood test.
Good luck, eham, I know you've been through a time of it lately.
Hugs Minnie
The human body is so complex. I understand that it takes time in some cases to figure out what's going on because so many things are mimics of each other.
I guess like the rest of us, doctors like the more clear-cut problem with a clear-cut solution much more than the difficult, time-consuming issues.
I know for me, I would have preferred that whatever this is I have could have simply been determined by an examination and a blood test.
Good luck, eham, I know you've been through a time of it lately.
Hugs Minnie
I think the issue is that neurologists often see only in black and white and textbook patterns. I've seen 8 neurologists in various states and always the same approach. I keep bullet point notes with a timeline in medical terminology- makes no difference. If I'm describing a circle type issue that doesn't fit in a square box then already the apt will not be fully productive. We have to remember these are not all holistic doctors- often they skip the bigger picture. It's sad and frustrating, but i believe it's in line with their focal thinking. The question is how to deal with that school of thought.
Hilarious about your husband. I stopped bringing mine for the same reason. Neuro was explaining how I need to continue to look after my overall health, trying to make the point that not every new ache and pain will necessarily be due to MS. I understood his point, I'm sure he's experienced this with patients, especially the newly diagnosed. My husband thought he was being patronizing, and being loyal to me, said Don't worry, I think she knows not to bother you when she catches a cold. ............ Also awkward. Neuro just kept talking, focused on me, ignoring the comment. I tried to shoot my husband a dirty look but with the crazy diplopia crossed eyes I had at the time, it was lost on him. I don't bring him along anymore. :)
BRAVO! to your husband!!!
Some doctors need a reminder that they may not know everything - and that information updates come along on a regular basis. This doctor can listen to Montel or maybe she would prefer to just go back and read some medical literuture updates. I'm sure the MS Society could sent her some info on the disease.
Sorry your appointment got akward but frankly, this doesn't really sound like the kind of expert you'd want on your case.
Some doctors need a reminder that they may not know everything - and that information updates come along on a regular basis. This doctor can listen to Montel or maybe she would prefer to just go back and read some medical literuture updates. I'm sure the MS Society could sent her some info on the disease.
Sorry your appointment got akward but frankly, this doesn't really sound like the kind of expert you'd want on your case.
Whew. Yes, awkward.
BTW, my current boss (at the one of my 5 jobs that pays the most) is named Pat.
I think there's at least a partial demographic explanation. As noted, "men" (I put that in quotes because we all know that stereotypes are just that) hate going to the doctor. At our age range (maybe that should've been in quotes, too) there are more women than men (since so many of us have died off already). Combine those two facts, and most doctors' patients are likely to be mostly women. Thus the occasional male patient is a change of pace for the doc.
I do wonder if there's a difference in this issue with female docs.
One of the most recent regulars at our church (where yes, I am the pastor) is named Danielle. She lives in my previous home, coincidentally.
BTW, my current boss (at the one of my 5 jobs that pays the most) is named Pat.
I think there's at least a partial demographic explanation. As noted, "men" (I put that in quotes because we all know that stereotypes are just that) hate going to the doctor. At our age range (maybe that should've been in quotes, too) there are more women than men (since so many of us have died off already). Combine those two facts, and most doctors' patients are likely to be mostly women. Thus the occasional male patient is a change of pace for the doc.
I do wonder if there's a difference in this issue with female docs.
One of the most recent regulars at our church (where yes, I am the pastor) is named Danielle. She lives in my previous home, coincidentally.
I totally get why you thought about this...and why it is important to you.
Call me a naive idealist, but I hope we all can get the care we need, whether we ramble, are direct, can hardly string two words together, etc.
I used to take my husband to appointments, but he either 1. makes the doctor notes as super pleasant and intelligent or 2. keeps the dr on the defensive by grilling them and not letting their b.s slip by unanswered.
My husband is very cute, too...I am not just saying that. My female docs and nurses just love him to pieces.
One neuro I saw in August said to me "If I believe Montel Williams, then there is pain in m.s..." (neuro said this condescendingly....)
Husband said: "Obviously. He only lives with the disease, but you have read about it in books so you must know more about it than he does."
Awkward.
Call me a naive idealist, but I hope we all can get the care we need, whether we ramble, are direct, can hardly string two words together, etc.
I used to take my husband to appointments, but he either 1. makes the doctor notes as super pleasant and intelligent or 2. keeps the dr on the defensive by grilling them and not letting their b.s slip by unanswered.
My husband is very cute, too...I am not just saying that. My female docs and nurses just love him to pieces.
One neuro I saw in August said to me "If I believe Montel Williams, then there is pain in m.s..." (neuro said this condescendingly....)
Husband said: "Obviously. He only lives with the disease, but you have read about it in books so you must know more about it than he does."
Awkward.
Thank you, I would be grateful for any feedback.
I will transfer my timeline and top 3 list (lol, like David Letterman's Top 10 List;) ) into a journal entry. I have it in Microsoft Word right now. I will let you know when I get it copied.
Thanks again,
Minnie
P.S Others' opinions will be welcome
I will transfer my timeline and top 3 list (lol, like David Letterman's Top 10 List;) ) into a journal entry. I have it in Microsoft Word right now. I will let you know when I get it copied.
Thanks again,
Minnie
P.S Others' opinions will be welcome
Some members here have posted their timeline as a journal entry and sought feedback from others here on how to make it most effective in conveying the information you need to convey while keeping it as brief as possible.
If you think this might be helpful to you, I'm sure you'd get some valuable feedback. I'd be happy to provide some if you like.
If you think this might be helpful to you, I'm sure you'd get some valuable feedback. I'd be happy to provide some if you like.
Also wanted to add thatI bbelieve a lot of this questioning is because of my upcoming MS specialist appointment.
I don't want to blow it.
In general, because there are exceptions to every rule, do men go in withttimelines and a top three symptom list? Or do they just say, "Hey doc, been having X, y and z since blah blah date and leave it at that?
I've kept my timeline to just one page, and have a top three life-altering symptoms list that consists of three brief paragraphs.
I guess the first experience with an MS specialist scarred me and now I want to stay away from the darned stove altogether and just order takeout ;)
I don't want to blow it.
In general, because there are exceptions to every rule, do men go in withttimelines and a top three symptom list? Or do they just say, "Hey doc, been having X, y and z since blah blah date and leave it at that?
I've kept my timeline to just one page, and have a top three life-altering symptoms list that consists of three brief paragraphs.
I guess the first experience with an MS specialist scarred me and now I want to stay away from the darned stove altogether and just order takeout ;)
As much as I hate to say it, I agree sexism is indeed still alive and well. Not saying they are all like this, yet I work in a male predominant field and I can assure you that the good ol' boys and alive and well and do deliberately try to make us women look stupid. I would love to say more and give details, but one has to be careful about what one says online.
I have learned some valuable things though. I thought I was one of those tough women who could run with the big dogs. I believe I have those traits because I'm still kicking and a lot of people do respect me.
While my first neurologist basically patted me on the head, I didn't accept that treatment and went elsewhere. I try very hard not to ramble, and to let my current neurologist talk and ask questions. I have also been treated very well and with respect. So I believe my issuewwith my first neurologist was him, not me. DH's solution was simple. If you don't like him, go to someone else when I told him how I was treated by the first guy.
I was just wondering, though, if a communication methodology difference in the two genders affects how women in general are treated. As someone posted above, certain personally types are more likely to become doctors. We all have different personality types and naturally they aren't always going to gel.
I just feel so bad about how people have been treated. I know we only get one side of the story yet we read it so often.
Perhaps certain personality traits used to exist primarily in men, partially due to culture and society.
I guess the Analyst and developer in me are wanting to find a solution.
Thank you all for reading and writing, this is very eye opening.
Hugs, Minnie
I have learned some valuable things though. I thought I was one of those tough women who could run with the big dogs. I believe I have those traits because I'm still kicking and a lot of people do respect me.
While my first neurologist basically patted me on the head, I didn't accept that treatment and went elsewhere. I try very hard not to ramble, and to let my current neurologist talk and ask questions. I have also been treated very well and with respect. So I believe my issuewwith my first neurologist was him, not me. DH's solution was simple. If you don't like him, go to someone else when I told him how I was treated by the first guy.
I was just wondering, though, if a communication methodology difference in the two genders affects how women in general are treated. As someone posted above, certain personally types are more likely to become doctors. We all have different personality types and naturally they aren't always going to gel.
I just feel so bad about how people have been treated. I know we only get one side of the story yet we read it so often.
Perhaps certain personality traits used to exist primarily in men, partially due to culture and society.
I guess the Analyst and developer in me are wanting to find a solution.
Thank you all for reading and writing, this is very eye opening.
Hugs, Minnie
Hi Lilminnie,
In my limited view, men typically hate going to the doctor.
I think once you start seeing specialists and are dealing with symptoms versus signs, docs wonder "Is this person a whackjob?"
I'd argue sexsim drives most of the reasons why women are treated that way by medical professionals (my mother was once noted as having "female dementia" when she was 55) but we all know sexism was eradicated back in the 70's and 80's.
:)
In my limited view, men typically hate going to the doctor.
I think once you start seeing specialists and are dealing with symptoms versus signs, docs wonder "Is this person a whackjob?"
I'd argue sexsim drives most of the reasons why women are treated that way by medical professionals (my mother was once noted as having "female dementia" when she was 55) but we all know sexism was eradicated back in the 70's and 80's.
:)
I've always assumed Pastor Dan was a man ..... but perhaps she is actually Pastor Danielle. ;) lol
That cracked me up Dan. Made me think of the androgynous character Pat on SNL in the early 90s. Is it a man? Is it a woman? No one could figure it out. ;) I know I've mentioned my husband, but that doesn't necessarily make me a woman, does it? You can check out my pics for confirmation of my gender, lol.
I wasn't necessarily saying they ignore us because of our gender, rather because of how we communicate. Women, generally speaking, have different ways of relaying information than men. It seems to me, just based on observation, that men don't "sweat" going to the doctor and just laying it out there, so to speak.
Speaking for myself, I know that sometimes I tend to go into too much detail.
I am a very analytical person, I am what is called a Business Analyst. So, I tend to question things.
I read so many posts of women (maybe a man here and there, but mostly women) who get dismissed by their doctors. I just wonder why. I guessII'm inquisitive that way. Maybe there isn't an answer, just like I have read where some people have been told, "You may not ever be diagnosed."
At any rate, at least this has been an active discussion andI aappreciate everyone's input.
Hugs and blessings,
Minnie
Speaking for myself, I know that sometimes I tend to go into too much detail.
I am a very analytical person, I am what is called a Business Analyst. So, I tend to question things.
I read so many posts of women (maybe a man here and there, but mostly women) who get dismissed by their doctors. I just wonder why. I guessII'm inquisitive that way. Maybe there isn't an answer, just like I have read where some people have been told, "You may not ever be diagnosed."
At any rate, at least this has been an active discussion andI aappreciate everyone's input.
Hugs and blessings,
Minnie
No idea what my Myers-Briggs type is, but most of the thoughts in this thread make good sense to me. Men and women are vastly different, but not in all ways, and not always. Every one of us is a mixture, somewhere along the scale between each extreme in every dimension.
Oh, I hope I don't offend either, but dv1, for a long time I wasn't clear about your gender. I don't think it matters, but I think we all build imaginary personalities out of the snippets we know about online acquaintances. In your case, I just plain wasn't sure either way. In some ways, I think that says good about you, but I'm not so sure what it says about me. If anything. Well, maybe I should quit this line of thought before I do offend someone!
Oh, I hope I don't offend either, but dv1, for a long time I wasn't clear about your gender. I don't think it matters, but I think we all build imaginary personalities out of the snippets we know about online acquaintances. In your case, I just plain wasn't sure either way. In some ways, I think that says good about you, but I'm not so sure what it says about me. If anything. Well, maybe I should quit this line of thought before I do offend someone!
Interesting thread. I find that generalizing involves a lot of peril. It hasn't been my experience that male medical professionals act out of 'maleness' or that I am categorized because I am female. I too think it's much more complicated than that.
It seems to me that neurologists (the 8 or so I've dealt with) are not the easiest of breeds. The ones I know have been for the most part remote and cerebral. It isn't that they don't know how to interact--they really just don't put any premium on it. These include both males and females. We, as patient-consumers, have little choice since they hold all the cards. I don't know what there is about neurology that attracts such people, but it seems to be true for me and for many on this forum, judging by the hundreds of posts I've read on this subject over the years.
I am a Myers-Briggs INTJ also, the rarest type for females. I tend to be analytical and logical more than anything else, and have had to learn to harness the abilities I have to succeed in the working world (as of course everyone has to do). Being also extremely verbal, I found myself in technical fields as the least technical person around, but the one most able to relate to the non-technical population we generally served. I've tried to put this same spin on interacting with MS medical people, and have learned that brevity and conciseness is what appeals to them. This is a pragmatic thing, but it has worked for me.
ess
It seems to me that neurologists (the 8 or so I've dealt with) are not the easiest of breeds. The ones I know have been for the most part remote and cerebral. It isn't that they don't know how to interact--they really just don't put any premium on it. These include both males and females. We, as patient-consumers, have little choice since they hold all the cards. I don't know what there is about neurology that attracts such people, but it seems to be true for me and for many on this forum, judging by the hundreds of posts I've read on this subject over the years.
I am a Myers-Briggs INTJ also, the rarest type for females. I tend to be analytical and logical more than anything else, and have had to learn to harness the abilities I have to succeed in the working world (as of course everyone has to do). Being also extremely verbal, I found myself in technical fields as the least technical person around, but the one most able to relate to the non-technical population we generally served. I've tried to put this same spin on interacting with MS medical people, and have learned that brevity and conciseness is what appeals to them. This is a pragmatic thing, but it has worked for me.
ess
Sorry, I meant to add, to your point about why more women may be given the 'brush off' by doctors, I would look more to sexist attitudes that continue to linger in society (and books like Mars/Venus don't help, in my view). Think back to Freud, 'hysterical' female patients, and so on. Had everything to do with sexism and oppression of women, than whether women communicated less effectively with their doctors. Fortunately, we've come a long long way.
If a provider is going to ignore you or not listen because they cannot get past gender or their own stereotypes, and if they haven't learned that patients aren't automatons who spew information in a linear, systematic way, run!
I am an INTJ, (I hate chit chat, gossip, small talk, and I got nervous when I thought about planning our wedding...we eloped incidentally :)...
I am a very direct, focused communicator in many respects, yet I've been given the big brush off too (in the past)...
My brother in law has a Ph.d (evolutionary biologist) and he is respected in his field, yet whe he sees docs, he's also gotten the "yea, you are kind of an idiot" treatment too. He gets pretty frustrated by it too....
My husband has been treated like that, too. I think it is all luck of the draw, and once they size you up within seconds, docs have a set idea about you, right or wrong.
Thanks for the post! Interesting topic.
I am an INTJ, (I hate chit chat, gossip, small talk, and I got nervous when I thought about planning our wedding...we eloped incidentally :)...
I am a very direct, focused communicator in many respects, yet I've been given the big brush off too (in the past)...
My brother in law has a Ph.d (evolutionary biologist) and he is respected in his field, yet whe he sees docs, he's also gotten the "yea, you are kind of an idiot" treatment too. He gets pretty frustrated by it too....
My husband has been treated like that, too. I think it is all luck of the draw, and once they size you up within seconds, docs have a set idea about you, right or wrong.
Thanks for the post! Interesting topic.
It would be silly for anyone to be offended by your post, or, by mine. I simply disagree. Doesn't mean I'm mad. The way in which you describe how men communicate, is exactly how I communicate .... with my doctors, and in my personal and professional relationships. And I'm a woman, honest!
I referenced that book not so much because I believe everything in it, but one can't deny that there are differences in how men and women think.
We tend to go into a lot of detail, whereas men are generally more direct. Why are so many of us given the brush off? There has got to be a reason.
It appears that I did offend and did not communicate my intent well at all. Perhaps that is something I need to work on.
Thank you for reading and writing back,
All the best, Minnie
We tend to go into a lot of detail, whereas men are generally more direct. Why are so many of us given the brush off? There has got to be a reason.
It appears that I did offend and did not communicate my intent well at all. Perhaps that is something I need to work on.
Thank you for reading and writing back,
All the best, Minnie
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