Okay my bad MRI and Grey Matter

[saveone]

I found this info on another site.  The relationship between grey matter and disease progression is discussed, including using MRI of grey matter to predict progression.

I wasn't thinking...which isn't anything new...when I posted the info on website. The body of the post came after the address. So the web address ended up blaring across the forum screen. In case it is removed I will but the web address last this time.  

http://  www.sciencedaily.   com/releases/   2008/  11/081105164308.htm

[jensequitur]

I'm going to bump up that thread by Heather again - it's about how axons are severed even before lesion formation.

[doni54]

Thanks, Quix, I'm going to read this again when my brain is in better working order, but I think I'm understanding a little better.

[Quixotic1]

A little anatomy for all yous folks.

On a big level the brain and spinal cord have gray matter and white matter.  The gray matter is made up principally by the cells of the thinking part of our brain.  The whitte matter is the network of communicating nerve fibers which have myelin around them.

On a cell level, the brain and spinal cord are made up of neurons, the name for the cells that actually do the work of thinking and making the body work.  (There are also several other kinds of cells that do maintenance and repair work.  We don't need to think about these here).

A neuron is made up of a cell body - the cell itself - which communicates with the other cells around it via short little fingers and nerve fibers.  But, most cells also need to communicate with cells farther away, too.  To manage this they send signals to other parts of the brain and to the body via MYELINATED FIBERS.  These myelinated fibers extend into and form the white matter of the brain.  So the neuron is the cell body and the cell fiber.

So the gray cells communicate by sending axons (nerve fibers) into the white matter.  These myelin-covered axons may go to other parts of the brain or down to different parts of the body.

The two areas are connected because they are different parts of the whole nerve apparatus - the cell body and the cell fiber.

They have found that gray matter lesions appear to be caused often by white matter lesions.  This is also saying that really bad damage to the myelinated white fiber can be enough to cause the death of the whole cell, even the part up in the gray matter.
It's when the cell-body dies that we really permanently lose the function of what that cell does.  Once the cell-body dies it cannot be remade or fixed.  That is one reason that gray matter lesions are connected to the permanent disability we suffer in MS.

If we can slow the damage to the white matter, then you can see that we should also be able to slow the more permanent damage to the gray matter.

If gray matter lesions are happening early in the MS disease process, then you can also see the need to begin and continue the DMD's.  Once the gray matter is damaged and gone, there is no repairing or replacing it.

I wrote this so people would have a little understanding of gray vs white matter and how they are related.

Quix

[doni54]

bump for MCBCON..................

[saveone]

I will let you know after I read some of this.  I may not understand any of it.  But if I can I would be willing collaborate with Doni.  She is probably much farther a head i her reading. I won't forget, I'll write it down then I'll get in touch.

[Quixotic1]

Well, it looks like you are the natural person to take on a Health Page on "The Emerging Importance of Gray Matter Lesions."  Would you be willing to do this?  Maybe you and Doni could put it together for us.

This is part of the future of understanding our disease.  I'm thrilled to see you all participating in getting the great info to us.  From my reading, the regular MRI techniques being used to look at our brains are not good for visualizing GML (Gray Matter Lesions).   From the NIH article above, GML may appear BEFORE those in the white matter.  Again we have evidence that our lesions may often be "invisible."  How can we ever again hear a neuro say that a normal MRI means unequivocally that there is no MS??

I had read this and another article which pointed to some evidence that many GML were related to the usual white matter lesions.  But, they also say that not all of them are.

I read another more recent large scale report, from Canada I think, that failed to find an aasscociated between GML and fatigue.  This surprised the researchers a great deal.  And it is in contrast to what is said above.  I'll try to find it.

Quix

We'll be keeping an eye on this whole topic.

[saveone]

Thanks for the info.  I will begin sorting through this.  I will get a note book so I can make notes.  LOL  I isn't that what a notebook is for.  Any ways thanks.

[doni54]

Hi, I had looked up and found some good sites when Julia111 was discussing this.

Here are some of the sites I found, luckily last time MedHelp didn't mess with them
maybe they won't this time either:


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507375_1
Study about gray matter & migraines in MS _________________________________________________________________________ http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/full/220/3/606
Study has lots of picts
_________________________________________________________________________ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17325269

Comment in:
Neurology. 2007 Feb 27;68(9):E9-10.

Gray matter involvement in multiple sclerosis.
Pirko I, Lucchinetti CF, Sriram S, Bakshi R.

Department of Neurology, University of Cincinnati, OH, USA.

Gray matter (GM) involvement is detected even in the earliest stages of multiple sclerosis (MS), and GM atrophy occurs at a faster rate than white matter (WM) atrophy early in the disease course. Studies published to date establish that 1) GM involvement and in particular cortical demyelination can be extensive in MS; 2) GM pathology may occur in part independently of WM lesion formation; 3) a primarily GM-related process may be the earliest manifestation of MS; 4) GM involvement is associated with physical disability, fatigue, and cognitive impairment in MS; and 5) GM disease might help explain the observed dissociation between markers of inflammatory demyelination (relapses, WM gadolinium enhancement, WM lesion burden) and disease progression. It remains likely that GM damage is related to WM damage. However, continued studies of GM pathology as well as neuronal and axonal involvement in MS and related experimental models are necessary to better understand the etiology and pathogenesis of the degenerative components.
________________________________________________________________________
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Neurology/MultipleSclerosis/4009
Good article
_______________________________________________________________________
http://neuropathology.neoucom.edu/chapter6/chapter6aMS.html
Has lots of good pictures of brain and lesions
_______________________________________________________________________
http://www.ajnr.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/9/1613
Okay article
______________________________________________________________________
http://archneur.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/62/4/578.pdf
7 page study
_______________________________________________________________________
http://members.tripod.com/ThJuland/abstr06c-2g5.html#1
Gray Matter Pathology In Multiple Sclerosis
_______________________________________________________________________
http://members.tripod.com/ thjuland/abstr04a-2g6.html#8
_______________________________________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/ thjuland/ mri2g2.html#10
Assessment of Normal-Appearing White And Gray Matter In Primary/Progressive Multiple Sclerosis: A Diffusion-Tensor Magnetic Resonance Imaging Study
_________________________________________________________________________ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathophysiology_of_multiple_sclerosis