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634733 tn?1316625992

Update on the cough and question

Hi Guys,

I am still not on here much but seem to be still be suffering somewhat here.

The cough I have had for 8 months is still with me and is soooo debilitating I don't think that I am going to be able to return to work next week after my summer break as talking just sends me off on a fit of coughing that can take me close to fainting. I won't go into details about the history but just wanted some opinions on the latest discussions with my GP.

Although he does not think it is MS related, I have had gastric reflux for some 20 years since my first bout of ON, always dismissed as IBS but the only sx being acid reflux and constipation. My MS team now think the constipation problems are MS, so is t possible that the reflux could also be?

I have taken a PPI for some 20 years and did not think that reflux was an issue, I don't get heartburn, but the GP wants me to take a double dose of PPI and Gaviscon Advance after every meal and before bed for 2 months to see if it is reflux causing my cough. I have only followed this for a week so far but no change in the cough.

If this doesn't work he wants to try oral steroids and then if that fails see a chest specialist as the ENT guy found nothing.

Has anyone one here had anything similar, could it be that reflux that could cause this and could that be caused by a faulty valve once more?

It is totally exhausting!! I have my graduation ceremony next week to finally collect my PhD (nearly a year after is was ratified)  and as a member of staff I am expected to sit on the stage throughout the ceremony and the cough is so embarrassing, I just dread having to sit there and go up and shake hands with officials whilst hacking so that I cannot speak and lose control of my bladder.

Also on Sept. 11th we are off with the entire family (12 of us) for a holiday in Spain to celebrate our 25th anniversary, it would be nice to be getting somewhere with this by then.

Any one any experience?

Big hugs to all

Pat
20 Responses
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147426 tn?1317265632
Hey, Doc, I'm sorry I didn't comment on that!

OT - recently we had an article in the paper about a man with a debilitating cough.  They eventually took him to bronchcoscopy and found that at some time he had aspirated a pea.  The pea germinated and was growing - roots and all - in his lung.  He felt better after having it taken out.

A possibility here? - no, but it was a cool story.

Q
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1045086 tn?1332126422
Hi there Dr. Eyesandlegs!  I assume you have your ceremoniously proper title now.

I'm hoping to catch you for an update before you head off to Spain.  How's that cough?  I keep coming back to the strong sense that this is MS related.  You have probably already touched on the cause but just can't get the right doc to believe it.  It's no wonder so many ads portray doctors as drug pushers with a script pad.  Far too many won't think things through.

In my personal experience your cough could be from several of the things you and Quix were throwing around.  I'm not asthmatic but I assume I had some type of allergic reaction to the state of Oklahoma when I lived there years ago.  

Something unknow would trigger coughing spasms that wouldn't stop until I gagged or puked or took a shot of epinephrine.  Once I moved out of the state those symptoms stopped almost completely.  I've heard some moms talk about their kids asthma presenting that way.

They did try me on inhalers for a while back then but (like you) I had trouble getting them past my tongue and gagged.  In case you weren't told when you used them, the steroids must ALWAYS be followed by a mouth rinse to prevent thrush.  I did have better luck using a nebulizer.  It's a simple version of the machine they give you a hospital breathing treatment with.

It is possible to be aspirating without realizing it.  You don't have to choke like a whole glassful went down the wrong pipe to be aspirating.  The only way to detect some aspiration is with a test called a cookie swallow.  Radiology techs or speech therapists watch and record different consistencies via floroscope as you swallow them down.  If it's a problem, you can be shown how to "double swallow" for safety or how to how your head to prevent aspiration when swallowing.

Reflux can definitely be a problem with causing cough but I think it usually causes a problem at night.  Then again, if it irritates your throat enough I suppose it would carry through the day.  If you take a PPI twice a day you can be free from acid pain (heartburn) and still have reflux.

There is an area at the top of the stomach that is supposed to keep the stomach juices from sloshing up into the esophagus.  It can get weak or lax and not do that job well - or at all.  Mine got so bad that it had to be surgically tightened.  It was amazing when I realized the coughing and congestion that I took for granted as normal that disappeared after that surgery.  It's only worse if you have gastroparesis and add the pressure of food not moving through.

I sure do hope you have good news to report and didn't need any of that input.

Have a great celebration of 25 years.
Mary
Helpful - 0
338416 tn?1420045702
I've never had indigestion or acid reflux of any kind until I started having neurological symptoms.  And I think that my problem was the sphincter - aside from acid in my throat, I didn't have any other troubles.
Helpful - 0
147426 tn?1317265632
One component of reflux is that the sphincter between the end of the esophagus and the stomach is not functioning well to keep the gastric contents in the stomach.

It slays me that GI guys can say that it has nothing to do with MS.  My GI guy thought reflux was often worse in his patients with MS.

In MS it is very common for the bowel not to move in a coordinated manor.  the effects of this extend all the way to the stomach and may cause it not to empty as well - a condition known as gastroparesis.  While gastroparesis is common in it's own right, it is more common in MS also.

Q
Helpful - 0
634733 tn?1316625992
That was my original question to all here. I have been on Lanzaprazole for 20 years and also had ON for the first time in the sam eyear and so we know now I have had MS sx for at leats that long.

I am trying th ereflux route by doubling th edosage and using Gaviscon too, but I think Quix is right that I need to chase this if nothing is happening within thi snbext week.

So far the cough is still as bad and I am not aware of any reflux. I was wandering about the esophagus as it is another sphincter muscle and I do problems with some others too !!

Pat
Helpful - 0
Avatar universal
:Pat, it's great that you have triumphed over adversity to the extent of earning a PhD! How many of us can say that??!?

I've been having a bothersome cough myself, though sometimes the cough part is skipped :-)

At times, when I have what seems like just a little cough, I get gastric reflux. Yuck. It isn't bad, though, because I've been on Omeprezole (sp?) for about 18 months, so the acid factor could be a lot worse. My gastroenterologist (it seems I have every ologist in the book) says this has nothing to do with MS. I find that hard to believe, yet I'm no expert.

Lately I've been getting reflux regardless. It seems my esophagus doesn't know when to shut. Do you think that could be contributing to your woes?

ess
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147426 tn?1317265632
giggling
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634733 tn?1316625992
pursue - and me a PhD - lol
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634733 tn?1316625992
Thanks Quix, you are right about UK vs US, I will print this off and persue asap.

(((hugs)))

Pat
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147426 tn?1317265632
Yes!  Huge congrats on the PhD!!

Choking on the inhaler does not give it a proper trial.   I would like to see you treated with a couple nebulizer treatments to see if they help.

If it is a post-Pertussis, then the only thing that would help possibly would be the oral steroids.

The TB skin test is only pertinent AFTER the onset of cough, so was it within the last 8 months?

Glad the Chest Xray is normal.

Bronchitis is NOT a diagnosis.  It is a description.  Personal opinion.  It's like diagnosing you with a stomach ache.  And, a true bronchitis is a productive cough with which you bring up nasty sputum.  The clear stuff is just the mucous that coats your airways.

8 months!!!!  You should already be under the Pulmonologist's care, IMO.  Pulmonary Function tests is a simple office procedure.     I agree with Red that a bronchoscopy is a good next step also.

So, these are some of the things I would push for.  In the states we would document the reflux with either a pH Probe overnight or Upper Endoscopy before committing to 2 months of therapy. That's two months lost if it is something really serious.   It seems in the UK they will do all non-invasive treatment before pressing for a firm diagnosis.

Quix
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634733 tn?1316625992
Sorry that should have said silent aspiration and the bronchodilator I assume is the steroid inhaler so yes I have tried it see earlier post.

Pat
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634733 tn?1316625992
Thanks for the congrats - and the tips - it is the time I have to sit there for which is a problem, I am going to ask if I can sit back of stage and leave if I am desperate but of course my poor family is in the audience.

Nothing stops a coughing fit, I jsut carry on until it is spent. Family say it sounds like It is spasming

Thanks again
Pat x
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Avatar universal
Quix beat me to it.  I was going to suggest whooping cough (pertussis), too.  Also, I have cough variant asthma myself, and it does sound like a similar cough, though I only get it when I exercise hard.

Congratulations on your PhD!  I know what hard work and persistence goes into achieving that!!  

Stephanie
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634733 tn?1316625992
Quix,

Thanks so much for chiming in your opinion is very valuable to me, in answer to your questions:

I haven’t had Pertussis mentioned I need to look at that:

The history is I had a chest infection in January this year which was very severe and needed 2 lots of antibiotics, I was ‘left with a cough’ which was mild but got worse over the months and nothing prescribed worked and in June was dx with Bronchitis. I was given a steroid inhaler which helped a little but after 2 weeks i developed thrush in my mouth and was given an ‘as needed’ inhaler but that just made me choke and didn’t help. Steroid nasal spray for a PND I have had for years which suddenly git worse last year also made the cough worse and so was stopped.

Back to your q’s:

Does your cough bring up sputum?  or is it a dry cough?  = It  starts so dry that it hurts and only stops when I finally cough up a small amount of clear sputum.

Does forcibly blowing out all of the air in your lungs cause coughing or audible wheezing? No and the peak flow test was normal – but I have always been a singer and had lungs like and ox.

Another reason for coughing like you describe is Cough-Variant Asthma.  Instead of being classically short of breath and wheezing, you just cough and cough.  The diagnosis of C-V asthma is often made empirically by treating with a bronchodilator - usually just an inhaler or nebulizer.  - I think I answered this earlier in the history..

Other causes of chronic cough include aspiration, a foreign body- silen aspiration was mentioned by my GP only once and dismissed by my MS nurse.

Have you at least had a chest X-ray? Yes and it was normal

Have they tried a bronchodilator?  - No
Have you had basic Pulmonary Function Tests?  No

If reflux were the cause you would see a pretty prompt improvement - certainly by the second week.  – did some research on this and Prof. Morice and his team at Hull University say it can take up to 2 months to heal the damage in some people.

Question - does laughter or exercise stimulate the cough? – yes and so soes talking and dry food and sometimes just anything including breathing!

Are you a smoker?  - gave up 22 years ago/

You need a TB skin test if you haven't had BCG.  – had that at school?

Any help really appreciated Quix – with the MS, the arthritis and the cough I am losing my social life as well as my career currently.

Pat x
Helpful - 0
147426 tn?1317265632
Yes, reflux can cause severe coughing by stimulating bronchospasm (tight airways and wheezing).  Q
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147426 tn?1317265632
Pat, your coughing fits sound EXACTLY what infants with Pertussis go through.  And Pertussis is one of the most common community-acquired causes of bronchitis and pneumonia, along with Mycoplasma and Chlamydia.  And then there are things like Legionaire's.

The problem is that even after the infection is treated the inflammation and damage to the airways lingers a long time.

Does your cough bring up sputum?  or is it a dry cough?  Does forcibly blowing out all of the air in your lungs cause coughing or audible wheezing?  Enquiring minds want to know.

Another reason for coughing like you describe is Cough-Variant Asthma.  Instead of being classically short of breath and wheezing, you just cough and cough.  The diagnosis of C-V asthma is often made empirically by treating with a bronchodilator - usually just an inhaler or nebulizer.

Asthma can begin at any age and it can be the result of a severe lung inflammation.

Other causes of chronic cough include aspiration, a foreign body that was aspirated earlier, other infections like Mycoplasma, TB, or fungal infections, lung Ca, and a variety of other weirdnesses.

Have you at least had a chest X-ray?  Have they tried a bronchodilator?  Have you had basic Pulmonary Function Tests?

Under no circumstances would I let another 2 months go by trying this anti-reflux regimen.  That is ridiculous!  If reflux were the cause you would see a pretty prompt improvement - certainly by the second week.

Please press your GP to go further earlier.  Especially if you have not had a Chest X-ray.  

Question - does laughter or exercise stimulate the cough?  If so, it might be bronchospasm and you could ask for an inhaler or nebulizer to try.  Two Months!!!  That's a pretty lacadaisical (sp?) approach for a cough this severe.  Are you a smoker?  That would also bring up the possibility of COPD - Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease and chronic bronchitis.

You need a TB skin test if you haven't had BCG.

Quix

You hit my doc switch.  
Helpful - 0
1312898 tn?1314568133
It's great to see you on the boards Pat, haven't seen you in a while.  And, congratulations on your Ph.D.!  What a tremendous accomplishment.  

You mention seeing an ENT, have you also been seen by a pulmonologist?  Having a bad cough like this is could be a serious thing.  Have you had a bronchoscopy?  I would push for that if you haven't had one just to rule out if nothing else.

I'm sorry you are going through this and I hope that answers will come soon.  

Can you talk to your colleauges and let them know about your concerns about being on stage for that long?  You might start there if you don't think you can make it through.

Hugs,    Red
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1253197 tn?1331209110
Hi Pat

I am afraid that I cannot offer any insight into your coughing (although if your GP and MS team are not sure then you may have more luck with some of the experts on this forum who often give such valuable advice!)

I jsut wanted to say congratulations on your PHD. What an amazing acdhievement and I bet your family are incredibly proud of you. I know that you metnioned that it was ratified a year ago but the graduation will be a special day so you need to be able to enjoy it!.

So do whatever it takes to help you as best you can....make sure you are armed with pads in place to avoid any embarrassing accidents. Suck something to see if this helps with coughing temporarily. For nerves/anxiety try a spray of Bach's Rescue Remedy on the tongue (try it beforore just in case it exacerbates the coughing as my daughter has asthma and she says it tastes like sherry and makes her worse! And have a dscreet bottle of water close to hand if that helps (dbut try not to swallow it down the wrong way)

I really hope that you have the wonderful day that you deserve and that this wretched coughing problem can be resolved sooner rather than later. It sounds as if a referral to a chest expert may be the next stelp;.

Have you also looked at diet with a nutritionist to see what foods are helpful to avoid to see if this helps with the reflux?

Anyhow chiming in complete so over to someone else now!

Love from fellow UK resident from Gloucestershire!

Sarah x
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634733 tn?1316625992
Hi Dennis,

I have discussed with my MS team who do not believe it is related to swallowing or silent aspiration. My cough is around 12 - 16 coughing fits a day which leave me exhausted and close to fainting and as I said with a retention issue the continence crisis is escalating, I cannot speak at all at this time and it can last several minutes.

The joke is that I am a lecturer at a university in the UK, as if MS wasn't enough - how do I start lectures next week eh?

My problems have always been lower down than swallowing, like when I swallow things seem to get stuck for a second and often I cannot eat very much due to bloating.

I hope someone else chimes in here, but bless you for replying.

Pat x
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645800 tn?1466860955
This is very interesting for me as some times when I start to talk I will start coughing like crazy. I have been planing on bring this up with my Neuro the next time I see them. I have been suspecting this is due to a swallowing problem which may be MS related.

I suspect that it is a swallowing problem as I have also noticed that I will have other swallowing problems at times such as swallowing when I didn't mean to ( large pieces of food going down), and having trouble getting things to go down at all.

Dennis
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