Aa
When do you let nature take its course?
My mother-in-law is in the hospital in ICU with Pneumonia and a UTI. She started of going from vomiting at the nursing home and running a slight temp. She had been fighting an infection her foot. She was diagnosed with MS in 85'. They determined she had an UTI. But when she vomited, she aspirated and that went into Pneumonia. She has been in ICU since March 16th. She was put on a ventilator on March 23rd, because the Pneumonia was getting worse. By March 26th, they determined that she needed to be put on a rotating bed, to take pressure off her lungs. She coded at one point that night when they brought her back to her back and continued to have stats drop each time, until late on March 27th. Lungs continued to get worse. She had also retained more than 3.5 gallons of fluid. Determined her last hope was a temporary dialysis. Finally started it, but then the line got pinched in the rotating bed and was forced to stop early on the 28th. But then suddenly, she was having urine output and enough that it was getting clearer in color. And was able to bring vent oxygen levels down to 50%. On the 29th, urine output got less. Today had to move the oxygen levels back up to 70% and had to move her to regular bed, because the rotating bed was hurting her body. One of the doctors told my sister-in-law and husband, that if she comes out of it, she will not be close to be same. She will lose more mobility and other functions, which is very limited now. They asked for her Neurologist to come in and give her opinion. They are so confused right now on whether they should continue treatment or let her pass in peace. Even if we continue treatment, it is hard to say if she is going to make it, with her showing signs of going backwards again.
I am so sorry for your loss. Take care of yourself. She sounds like a great person.
Alex
Alex
Sorry, it took me awhile to get back on here. I wanted to thank everyone for help and the kind thoughts. Unfortunately, we found there was really no brain activity. She had some seizures at some point, most likely when they had moved her to the rotating bed. Her sugar dropped extremely low. They took her off the machines and she passed within an hour on April 1st, day after our daughter's 5th birthday. We all said our goodbyes. We know she is in a better place and no longer restricted to a wheel chair and depending on others for help. She hated the fact that others had to help her. She had been a nurse and never wanted to stop taking care of people. We found out from the nursing home doc, that he would see her consoling aides, when they weren't feeling good. We will all miss her greatly, but are keeping each other strong. My husband and I have found that we both have a really good work family. I don't think a lot people can say that about where they work. We also have a very supportive church family, extended family, and several christian friends. It has amazed us how many have sent such thoughtful cards, told us they are praying for us, how much they thought of her and our family, and several who found way to help. I feel truly blessed to have has such a wonderful mother-in-law and to have so many care for us in our time of sorrow!
Stay strong and support each other as best you can, it's a very hard time. Hope for some better news for you all. Nx
They stop the paralytic and hasn't been under sedation for 6 hours now. No signs of movement. Still waiting on the Neurologist to evaluate her. Just doesn't look good!
COMMUNITY LEADER
I am so so sorry this has happened to you and yours! ******HUGS******
It's tragically sad to ever be faced with some one you dearly love being in ICU and having to consider what the right thing to do for them is, hard hard decision and one that shouldn't ever be made if there is 'anyone' in the family still with hope.......
I have always had a firm mindset regarding my own personal end of life situation, but 'Scottie' altered my mind, i'd always thought of my self as someone who will fight until the very end but if there comes a time when my body has gone and all that's really left was hope, I wanted my family would be brave enough to let me go. Now i want them to hold onto their hope, so if I can find my voice, i'll be the one to decide......
Scottie unexpectedly collapsed one day whilst working overseas, airvac'd home in critical condition and different organs kept shutting down, crisis after crisis and there was no medical explanation of how he kept unexpectedly surviving. His body was paralysed and his organs malfunctioning or non-responsive, end of life situations happening so many times before his medical team could even identify the extent of the spinal damage.
His brain activity provided the hope he was still alive and everything medical possible was done to him and for him over the next couple of years, just trying to keep him stable even on life support. No one knew if he had any awareness of what was happing, how much brain damage he'd sustained etc but there was consistent hope that he was still able to understand his family were all there.
One day a new therapist worked out he was very aware and his medical team started working on giving him his voice back. Although electronically created it was very clear that he'd heard almost everything said over that time and he was still cognitively exactly the same man he'd always been! He kept on fighting for months after he got his voice back but the constant organ failure and additional machinery was never going to stop and it eventually became to much for him and he chose DNR......
The reason behind telling you Scotties story is that it may be premature to even be contemplating any end of life decisions, at this stage she is still in a medically induced coma whilst she's still fighting the pneumonia which she could still potentially recover from. At this moment in time i would highly recommend you all fully focus on every positive and only one all hope is lost, to consider what she'd wish you to do if she had a voice......
HUGS.............JJ
It's tragically sad to ever be faced with some one you dearly love being in ICU and having to consider what the right thing to do for them is, hard hard decision and one that shouldn't ever be made if there is 'anyone' in the family still with hope.......
I have always had a firm mindset regarding my own personal end of life situation, but 'Scottie' altered my mind, i'd always thought of my self as someone who will fight until the very end but if there comes a time when my body has gone and all that's really left was hope, I wanted my family would be brave enough to let me go. Now i want them to hold onto their hope, so if I can find my voice, i'll be the one to decide......
Scottie unexpectedly collapsed one day whilst working overseas, airvac'd home in critical condition and different organs kept shutting down, crisis after crisis and there was no medical explanation of how he kept unexpectedly surviving. His body was paralysed and his organs malfunctioning or non-responsive, end of life situations happening so many times before his medical team could even identify the extent of the spinal damage.
His brain activity provided the hope he was still alive and everything medical possible was done to him and for him over the next couple of years, just trying to keep him stable even on life support. No one knew if he had any awareness of what was happing, how much brain damage he'd sustained etc but there was consistent hope that he was still able to understand his family were all there.
One day a new therapist worked out he was very aware and his medical team started working on giving him his voice back. Although electronically created it was very clear that he'd heard almost everything said over that time and he was still cognitively exactly the same man he'd always been! He kept on fighting for months after he got his voice back but the constant organ failure and additional machinery was never going to stop and it eventually became to much for him and he chose DNR......
The reason behind telling you Scotties story is that it may be premature to even be contemplating any end of life decisions, at this stage she is still in a medically induced coma whilst she's still fighting the pneumonia which she could still potentially recover from. At this moment in time i would highly recommend you all fully focus on every positive and only one all hope is lost, to consider what she'd wish you to do if she had a voice......
HUGS.............JJ
Hi there and I'm very sorry to hear what is happening to your mother in law right now. I was in a similar situation with a family member 18months ago and she was only 64 when she went into ICU and was placed on dialysis, respirator etc. She seemed to improve briefly but eventually got worse with her organs shutting down.
Eventually the doctors had a family meeting to discuss exactly what you are now. The doctors gave their opinions on the situation and family were asked what they thought. It was decided that it was time to let her go. She was brought out of the induced coma at times so we could say what we wanted.
It is a heart breaking situation and my heart goes out to you and her family. I think that if the doctors have not suggested a family meeting yet that one will be on the cards soon if she continues to deteriorate. You may also request for a family meeting to be set up.
Take Care,
Karry.
Eventually the doctors had a family meeting to discuss exactly what you are now. The doctors gave their opinions on the situation and family were asked what they thought. It was decided that it was time to let her go. She was brought out of the induced coma at times so we could say what we wanted.
It is a heart breaking situation and my heart goes out to you and her family. I think that if the doctors have not suggested a family meeting yet that one will be on the cards soon if she continues to deteriorate. You may also request for a family meeting to be set up.
Take Care,
Karry.
My heart is breaking for you and your family. She will be in my thoughts and prayers.
Barb
Barb
Hi there and I too sympathise with this upsetting situation.
I have MS (recent dx) but my mother did too. She was diagnosed mid-70s when I was little - so have experience of when there was no treatments or scanning etc as well as what we have to hand these days.
When my Mum was very ill and getting other complications with her heart and blood circulation, we were lucky, if I can put it like that, in that, when she had a heart attack that no one expected her to survive - she did.
It gave us two more years where we were able to tell her we loved her, get the appropriate care for her and speak about what her opinions were around 'end of life'.
Although the issues with her heart and mini strokes were not part of her MS per se, the doctors agreed that they were largely as a result of her immobility.
Mum was adamant that should her brain and body be affected to the extent she was unable to do anything for herself then she wanted the heart treatments stopped. Sadly, this is what happened but she received good care and had good pain relief before finally slipping away relatively peacefully.
If you aren't able to have that conversation with her, you need to trust the carers will give you good advice and information with which to make what is a very difficult decision. Whatever you all ultimately decide, it will be from a position of love.
Nx
I have MS (recent dx) but my mother did too. She was diagnosed mid-70s when I was little - so have experience of when there was no treatments or scanning etc as well as what we have to hand these days.
When my Mum was very ill and getting other complications with her heart and blood circulation, we were lucky, if I can put it like that, in that, when she had a heart attack that no one expected her to survive - she did.
It gave us two more years where we were able to tell her we loved her, get the appropriate care for her and speak about what her opinions were around 'end of life'.
Although the issues with her heart and mini strokes were not part of her MS per se, the doctors agreed that they were largely as a result of her immobility.
Mum was adamant that should her brain and body be affected to the extent she was unable to do anything for herself then she wanted the heart treatments stopped. Sadly, this is what happened but she received good care and had good pain relief before finally slipping away relatively peacefully.
If you aren't able to have that conversation with her, you need to trust the carers will give you good advice and information with which to make what is a very difficult decision. Whatever you all ultimately decide, it will be from a position of love.
Nx
We have our church pastor and several friends that are pastors. We have been circled in prayer by so many friends, family, co-workers, people who work at the nursing home where she lived, we definitely have a strong support group. It has been a real blessing to see all the love they have for her and us. Our babysitter took our almost 5 year old for night and the next day and packed a bag for my parents to pick her up, so we could be at the hospital. At this point, we just are trying to figure out what we should do.
She is under sedation and a paralytic that totally paralyze her. I don't think she has a living will, but I think she has talked enough, they have a pretty good idea what she wants. They are both very close to her. Her primary care doctor (he is even on his vacation) just came in to talk with them. he told them there are no real improvements on her lungs. At this point, we are not getting any positive news.
I'm sorry your family is going through this awful experience, and of course I'm sorry for your mother-in-law. Has she made a living will, or otherwise let you know what her wishes are in this extreme situation?
Please take advantage of the hospital's social services personnel, and also talk to a chaplain or other clergyman if this fits with your family's beliefs. MS really is not a part of what is happening now, even if it's what is ultimately behind your mother-in-law's dire condition. I think you'd be better served by those who are experienced in assisting in end-of-life circumstances. If you decided to let nature take its course, there are wonderful hospice programs to help you. I'm a volunteer at one.
My thoughts are with you.
ess
Please take advantage of the hospital's social services personnel, and also talk to a chaplain or other clergyman if this fits with your family's beliefs. MS really is not a part of what is happening now, even if it's what is ultimately behind your mother-in-law's dire condition. I think you'd be better served by those who are experienced in assisting in end-of-life circumstances. If you decided to let nature take its course, there are wonderful hospice programs to help you. I'm a volunteer at one.
My thoughts are with you.
ess
Welcome to the group AJD -
This is the most difficult question of all. It's also a very personal one. We all have ideas of what defines the quality of life worth sustaining.
You don't mention whether your MIL is awake, alert etc. Does she have a living will?
Kyle
This is the most difficult question of all. It's also a very personal one. We all have ideas of what defines the quality of life worth sustaining.
You don't mention whether your MIL is awake, alert etc. Does she have a living will?
Kyle
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