Aa
why do some of us have so much irritability?
is this just because for some of us, our nervous system is more irritable than others' systems?
i have had bouts of this odd(for lack of better word) irritability ever since my first symptoms appeard years ago.
my sleep problems i'm sure contributes to some of this, but gee, is this just a thing some of us with MS have more than others?
i have had bouts of this odd(for lack of better word) irritability ever since my first symptoms appeard years ago.
my sleep problems i'm sure contributes to some of this, but gee, is this just a thing some of us with MS have more than others?
COMMUNITY LEADER
Well I think what i've got out of this great topic (thanks for bringing it up) is that there multiple yet distinct issues being discussed, one we may have the ability to control, treat and possibly easier to understand and the other 'organic' and not in our control and then possible a 3rd combination of the other 2.
With the first issue, chronic irritability or grumpyness which by definition is continuous or longer lasting, often a by product of an underlying health condition that may not be being adequately treated or treated at all. Things like sleep apnea, psychological issues, headaches or other chronic pain, hormonal imbalances etc etc etc.
The second being, acute irritability which by definition is irregular, sudden and unpredictable. Often seen in a plethora of conditions like MS, it is recognised as part of the disease process though exact scientific understanding is not yet, it seems to me to be pinned down. It seems it could fall into the same sx box as layability (sp) and may not be as easily treatable or behaviorally controlled.
The third is the combination of both which would make working out the chicken or the egg, a heck of a lot harder (lol) I found this on another MS site......
http://www.mssociety.org.uk/about_ms/symptoms/mood_depression_and_emotions/mood_swings_and.html
[[[[[[[[Some people living with multiple sclerosis (MS) describe mood swings, where moods switch rapidly from one state to another. Others describe emotional upheavals, like bouts of anger or heightened sensitivity, where they become very emotional very easily and seem unable to stop. These symptoms affect only a small minority of people with MS.
Unlike depression or bi-polar disorder, which are common in other health conditions and have been studied for decades, these much rarer emotional symptoms have been little researched. As a result, there are few methods available to help healthcare professionals assess them, and they are harder to diagnose.
In recent years, researchers have begun to define specific categories for mood swings, emotionalism, and 'affective disorders' that people with MS may experience. Even so, you may experience changes that do not neatly fit into these categories. Instead, you may recognise characteristics from one or more category, with certain aspects of some being stronger than others. ]]]]]]]]]
I have to laugh, i understand whats going on a bit better than i did before but is it just me but do i also fit in their catagory of 'Euphoria' not how i would of labled it but yes it helps explain a lot lol
Cheers.......JJ
With the first issue, chronic irritability or grumpyness which by definition is continuous or longer lasting, often a by product of an underlying health condition that may not be being adequately treated or treated at all. Things like sleep apnea, psychological issues, headaches or other chronic pain, hormonal imbalances etc etc etc.
The second being, acute irritability which by definition is irregular, sudden and unpredictable. Often seen in a plethora of conditions like MS, it is recognised as part of the disease process though exact scientific understanding is not yet, it seems to me to be pinned down. It seems it could fall into the same sx box as layability (sp) and may not be as easily treatable or behaviorally controlled.
The third is the combination of both which would make working out the chicken or the egg, a heck of a lot harder (lol) I found this on another MS site......
http://www.mssociety.org.uk/about_ms/symptoms/mood_depression_and_emotions/mood_swings_and.html
[[[[[[[[Some people living with multiple sclerosis (MS) describe mood swings, where moods switch rapidly from one state to another. Others describe emotional upheavals, like bouts of anger or heightened sensitivity, where they become very emotional very easily and seem unable to stop. These symptoms affect only a small minority of people with MS.
Unlike depression or bi-polar disorder, which are common in other health conditions and have been studied for decades, these much rarer emotional symptoms have been little researched. As a result, there are few methods available to help healthcare professionals assess them, and they are harder to diagnose.
In recent years, researchers have begun to define specific categories for mood swings, emotionalism, and 'affective disorders' that people with MS may experience. Even so, you may experience changes that do not neatly fit into these categories. Instead, you may recognise characteristics from one or more category, with certain aspects of some being stronger than others. ]]]]]]]]]
I have to laugh, i understand whats going on a bit better than i did before but is it just me but do i also fit in their catagory of 'Euphoria' not how i would of labled it but yes it helps explain a lot lol
Cheers.......JJ
I was validated when my Psychiatrist looked at my whole Neurological file and said all those years of being labeled and locked up were a shame because he felt it was the MS undiagnosed all along.
Getting help of medication for sleeplessness and pain and getting a good talk therapist has made all the difference.
Also the first year of diagnosis I carried a lot of guilt. I ironically did not feel it was unfair to me to have MS but to my DH who had a very sick mother his whole growing up. I did not want to put him through that again so soon in life.
Alex
Getting help of medication for sleeplessness and pain and getting a good talk therapist has made all the difference.
Also the first year of diagnosis I carried a lot of guilt. I ironically did not feel it was unfair to me to have MS but to my DH who had a very sick mother his whole growing up. I did not want to put him through that again so soon in life.
Alex
Uf2, I don't have any studies to back this up, but it seems to me that beating yourself in the head would tend to aggravate the situation. ;>) Just a thought. Be well.
WELL -- thank you Ms Lu!
i hope others read that and pass it on to their docotors too.
how many years did i beat myself in the head (figuratively), knowing now an organic brain disease has been part of the culprit.
i hope others read that and pass it on to their docotors too.
how many years did i beat myself in the head (figuratively), knowing now an organic brain disease has been part of the culprit.
I found a study that concludes this problem is likely organic ...
"...it alerts clinicians, particularly neurologists and general practitioners, of the need to be aware of psychiatric symptomatology in their community-based patients with MS, particularly depression, apathy and irritability.
As these symptoms are more prevalent than in similarly-disabled controls with non-neurological disease, they are likely to arise from organic brain disease rather than psychosocial factors."
http://www.cnsforum.com/commenteditem/139068D3-A36D-4C18-A3FD-8D3D7C0E0291/default.aspx
this study concludes: "Neuropsychiatric symptoms occur frequently in patients with MS. Irritability and apathy are independent of disability and chronic disease and represent unique disease manifestations."
-lu
"...it alerts clinicians, particularly neurologists and general practitioners, of the need to be aware of psychiatric symptomatology in their community-based patients with MS, particularly depression, apathy and irritability.
As these symptoms are more prevalent than in similarly-disabled controls with non-neurological disease, they are likely to arise from organic brain disease rather than psychosocial factors."
http://www.cnsforum.com/commenteditem/139068D3-A36D-4C18-A3FD-8D3D7C0E0291/default.aspx
this study concludes: "Neuropsychiatric symptoms occur frequently in patients with MS. Irritability and apathy are independent of disability and chronic disease and represent unique disease manifestations."
-lu
i have had CBT myself and it has helped and continues to do so. at the least to question the thoughts.
though it hasn't stopped the "bio-causes" of the irritabilities
though it hasn't stopped the "bio-causes" of the irritabilities
I am unable to add anything scientific and don't get me wrong as I get fairly irritated at times with a lot of little things in life. However I have also learnt to recognise the feelings in my body that come with irritation/mild anger and have got better at looking at what is annoying me and this has helped me not always lash out.
So from a Cognitive Behaviour Therapy viewpoint...... there is a cycle of thoughts , feelings, and behaviour which all interact and one leads to another. If we are able to change the way we think about something that irritates us, we can change our feeling and hence our behaviour.
This is all easy in theory..but often not in practise and please do not think I am trying to undermine all the sx that we all have to deal with on a daily basis. I know that if I do not get enough sleep, or have a headache or am due for my period I am crabby, and can be very irritable.
So I am sure that there must be a scientific link between these things. I am just like everyone else and at times the MS MonSter just leaps out from nowhere and I would be really interested to learn if there is any research linking MS and increased irritability..as I bet if we are all honest we can all put our hands up to acknowledging this exists for us all.
But I also wonder if it is perhaps easier to look for a scientific explanation that makes it Ok to be irritated so we can blame MS.....as we all have a choice in how we react in any given situation...
Just to add...I beleive that it is really important to express how we are feeling and to understand it..irritation and anger is an energy within us...and it just helps to understand what underpins it.
Hope this is not too controversial..
Cheers
Sarah
You got it JJ. I could feel irritation building in me as you described this encounter even though I'm clear across the globe. DS would have stood for 'dark spot' instead of any term of endearment.
YET, yesterday at work I had an angry woman push her way through me into a room I informed her she couldn't enter. Co-workers were trembling and one had tears in her eyes as she hugged me afterwards. They were afraid I was going to take a punch.
Did that upset me? Well, I wasn't happy but I didn't experience even a fraction of the irritation or call-to-arms I do when the telephone rings in a quiet house.
Go figure. Life didn't used to be this way.
Mary
YET, yesterday at work I had an angry woman push her way through me into a room I informed her she couldn't enter. Co-workers were trembling and one had tears in her eyes as she hugged me afterwards. They were afraid I was going to take a punch.
Did that upset me? Well, I wasn't happy but I didn't experience even a fraction of the irritation or call-to-arms I do when the telephone rings in a quiet house.
Go figure. Life didn't used to be this way.
Mary
COMMUNITY LEADER
Mary brought up a good thought to add to the mix.......
"I think some of it is physiologic. Maybe because of where a lesion is located. I know I can jump a mile and land with my fists ready if a unexpected noise or bright light startles me. It seems like a variant of hyperreflexia."
If the area of the brain that controls our flight or fight instincts is affected, (which is so very similar to Autism its not funny) would it account for the unexpected bouts of irritability? I'm thinking it might have a place in the puzzle, separate to the general irritation from the comorbid condition eg sleep deprivation or cronic pain.
EG. Yesterday, DS walked up behind me and i thought he was going to kiss me on the cheek, which he often does but instead he suddenly yelled WHAAAAAAAAA!!! He is 12 and a boy with a cheeky chip installed lol though I do startle and i never use to. I jumped a mile, my heart rate hit the roof, the tremor ramped up so much i looked like Audrey Hepburn, I was so mad he didn't know what hit him. It was not funny, no laugh from me, I felt so bad i had to take a 'time out' for a few hours, I slept but still struggled with the tremor hours later.
So i'm speculating (maybe too much) that if your system is affected and activating the fight or flight instincts, when you logically discover there is no real or imediate danger and no need for flight. The endorphins are still high and pumping so snapping at the thing or person that put you in that state, is maybe the logical conclusion to release it.
Does that make sense? Anymore ideas to add to the pot?
Cheers.......JJ
"I think some of it is physiologic. Maybe because of where a lesion is located. I know I can jump a mile and land with my fists ready if a unexpected noise or bright light startles me. It seems like a variant of hyperreflexia."
If the area of the brain that controls our flight or fight instincts is affected, (which is so very similar to Autism its not funny) would it account for the unexpected bouts of irritability? I'm thinking it might have a place in the puzzle, separate to the general irritation from the comorbid condition eg sleep deprivation or cronic pain.
EG. Yesterday, DS walked up behind me and i thought he was going to kiss me on the cheek, which he often does but instead he suddenly yelled WHAAAAAAAAA!!! He is 12 and a boy with a cheeky chip installed lol though I do startle and i never use to. I jumped a mile, my heart rate hit the roof, the tremor ramped up so much i looked like Audrey Hepburn, I was so mad he didn't know what hit him. It was not funny, no laugh from me, I felt so bad i had to take a 'time out' for a few hours, I slept but still struggled with the tremor hours later.
So i'm speculating (maybe too much) that if your system is affected and activating the fight or flight instincts, when you logically discover there is no real or imediate danger and no need for flight. The endorphins are still high and pumping so snapping at the thing or person that put you in that state, is maybe the logical conclusion to release it.
Does that make sense? Anymore ideas to add to the pot?
Cheers.......JJ
>>Sometimes it's simple survival mode.
yes, i think so, most of the time. no road map, but certainly in a survival mode ... not at all conducive to intimate or at the least friendly relationships.
>>HEADACHES!!
i've gotten so used to having them, i'm in denial i have them, except for the ones that i need to throw up
all these things people here liested, is it any wonder we aren't dancing with a smile all the time!? ;-)
thx
yes, i think so, most of the time. no road map, but certainly in a survival mode ... not at all conducive to intimate or at the least friendly relationships.
>>HEADACHES!!
i've gotten so used to having them, i'm in denial i have them, except for the ones that i need to throw up
all these things people here liested, is it any wonder we aren't dancing with a smile all the time!? ;-)
thx
I have time when I will just growl and don't know why I get in such frustating moods? Guess it's part of it all.
take care.... Grrrrr
wobbly
take care.... Grrrrr
wobbly
I like to tell myself that I'm irritable because I'm the single mother of a 20 year old son!
LOL.
Irritability can come from so many things, and based on the physical, emotional and financial stresses that are placed upon people with chronic ailments, there's bound to be some kind of reaction. Medication can also come into play.
LOL.
Irritability can come from so many things, and based on the physical, emotional and financial stresses that are placed upon people with chronic ailments, there's bound to be some kind of reaction. Medication can also come into play.
Just from observation and pondering the question for myself......
I think some of it is physiologic. Maybe because of where a lesion is located. I know I can jump a mile and land with my fists ready if a unexpected noise or bright light startles me. It seems like a variant of hyperreflexia. Then there is always the above mentioned sleep and pain problems. Like financial difficulties, they make everything less tolerable.
Other times I'm sure it is my frustration with the growing loss of self-control and self-determination. I don't feel like I'm in charge of my own life many days and that's not a happy place to be. It can leave me envious of other people's abilities and freedom (even though I depend on them to fill in my blanks). On really bad days it can leave me with an attidute that screams, "I've earned the right to be a little ______ (lazy, *itchy, crazy, etc) once in a while."
Sometimes it's simple survival mode. I've done so much for others for so long that I've contributed to a long term dependence on me in specific areas of daily living. (The worst one with this is the only one left in the house. Of Course!!) Sometimes I want to scream that it's time for them to GROW UP 'cause I've got to take care of me now.
They offered to help but don't want to help in the way I suggest would be helpful. So they do something else that isn't usually even very helpful. Sometimes my thank you is offered through clenched teeth. I know the only thing worse than having them irritate me would be not having them.
Then again, I'm conflicted. I still WANT to do it all myself :( I'm yucking mad at this disease . . . . so I get irritable!!!
Sorry this turned into a teary (on my part) venting mess. I'm think I'm still adjusting to the finality of the changes that diagnosis and age are bringing my way. Now it's only 0930 and I'm feeling spent for the day. Denial still seems to offer more energy reserves.
Mary
(Maybe just thinking about Lulu's King/Taylor concert brought out the comtemplation and rebellion in me.)
I think some of it is physiologic. Maybe because of where a lesion is located. I know I can jump a mile and land with my fists ready if a unexpected noise or bright light startles me. It seems like a variant of hyperreflexia. Then there is always the above mentioned sleep and pain problems. Like financial difficulties, they make everything less tolerable.
Other times I'm sure it is my frustration with the growing loss of self-control and self-determination. I don't feel like I'm in charge of my own life many days and that's not a happy place to be. It can leave me envious of other people's abilities and freedom (even though I depend on them to fill in my blanks). On really bad days it can leave me with an attidute that screams, "I've earned the right to be a little ______ (lazy, *itchy, crazy, etc) once in a while."
Sometimes it's simple survival mode. I've done so much for others for so long that I've contributed to a long term dependence on me in specific areas of daily living. (The worst one with this is the only one left in the house. Of Course!!) Sometimes I want to scream that it's time for them to GROW UP 'cause I've got to take care of me now.
They offered to help but don't want to help in the way I suggest would be helpful. So they do something else that isn't usually even very helpful. Sometimes my thank you is offered through clenched teeth. I know the only thing worse than having them irritate me would be not having them.
Then again, I'm conflicted. I still WANT to do it all myself :( I'm yucking mad at this disease . . . . so I get irritable!!!
Sorry this turned into a teary (on my part) venting mess. I'm think I'm still adjusting to the finality of the changes that diagnosis and age are bringing my way. Now it's only 0930 and I'm feeling spent for the day. Denial still seems to offer more energy reserves.
Mary
(Maybe just thinking about Lulu's King/Taylor concert brought out the comtemplation and rebellion in me.)
i thank each of you for your insights.
meg, i so forget about my symptoms that i'm in a denial state from time to time. like the headaches, and how i have to walk so soft as not to disturb something in my neck or head. so i get really irritable, and have to post a question here because no one else understands, even me. so thank you for pointing that out.
some years back when the "insane" type headaches and vertigo wouldn't let up, i often thought of bullet2brain, but only briefly. then it would be back to the "hang on another day" kinda thing.
and i still have to ask the question from time to time, why we (i) get do irritable from time to time. thanks.
for Dennis and I, dumb doctors at the VA is enough to add extra stress even if it is sub-conscience. they are in the biz of stonewalling, and yes, it is one of the most stressful aspects of my situation. i really hope to put it behind me with medicaid so i can move forward a bit.
that sine-wave like existence as Dennis pointed out is just so utterly frustrating that i just don't plan much of anything. i just wait and see. not many people are on that kind of schedule! LOL
>>it just doesn't add up with any resemblence of logic, its out of charactor and very hard for me to understand.
exactly my point JJ, no rhyme or reason at all.
>>I meant scientifically-
and a scientific explanation would be welcome too if anyone has one
glad i asked, really needed the feedback, thx
meg, i so forget about my symptoms that i'm in a denial state from time to time. like the headaches, and how i have to walk so soft as not to disturb something in my neck or head. so i get really irritable, and have to post a question here because no one else understands, even me. so thank you for pointing that out.
some years back when the "insane" type headaches and vertigo wouldn't let up, i often thought of bullet2brain, but only briefly. then it would be back to the "hang on another day" kinda thing.
and i still have to ask the question from time to time, why we (i) get do irritable from time to time. thanks.
for Dennis and I, dumb doctors at the VA is enough to add extra stress even if it is sub-conscience. they are in the biz of stonewalling, and yes, it is one of the most stressful aspects of my situation. i really hope to put it behind me with medicaid so i can move forward a bit.
that sine-wave like existence as Dennis pointed out is just so utterly frustrating that i just don't plan much of anything. i just wait and see. not many people are on that kind of schedule! LOL
>>it just doesn't add up with any resemblence of logic, its out of charactor and very hard for me to understand.
exactly my point JJ, no rhyme or reason at all.
>>I meant scientifically-
and a scientific explanation would be welcome too if anyone has one
glad i asked, really needed the feedback, thx
COMMUNITY LEADER
It is a good question, though i'm of the mind that the cause can be from a multitude of commorbid conditions, some already mentioned but the other culprit could simply be brain malfunction. I can't acount for the odd and really out of charactor PMT type blurts of irritation, when i'm naturally and normally a calm and a 'no big deal' kind of person.
Going balistic in seconds, over nothing and something i would more than likely laugh about is kind of disdressing to not only me but my family. One thing for sure, is as its happening i'm equally as confused as they are, in my head i'm saying what are you saying, whats your problem, stop stop stop but its hard to stop what I can't control or understand.
I can't really give an example that makes sense, it just doesn't add up with any resemblence of logic, its out of charactor and very hard for me to understand. I can be laughing and having a good time, like the last time it happened. DD asked for something that wasn't in its usual place and my brain couldn't help me find the solution. I hit balistic and she luckily knew something odd was happening, I dont believe it had anything to do with what was missing, it was more about my lack of executive function.
I'm still very much a happy go lucky person but i cant really account for these odd episodes at all, i think it would be easier for me to avoid them if they didn't come out of know where, and disapear as suddenly as they come lol. I'm all ears (umm eyes) for getting to understand this one.
Cheers........JJ
Going balistic in seconds, over nothing and something i would more than likely laugh about is kind of disdressing to not only me but my family. One thing for sure, is as its happening i'm equally as confused as they are, in my head i'm saying what are you saying, whats your problem, stop stop stop but its hard to stop what I can't control or understand.
I can't really give an example that makes sense, it just doesn't add up with any resemblence of logic, its out of charactor and very hard for me to understand. I can be laughing and having a good time, like the last time it happened. DD asked for something that wasn't in its usual place and my brain couldn't help me find the solution. I hit balistic and she luckily knew something odd was happening, I dont believe it had anything to do with what was missing, it was more about my lack of executive function.
I'm still very much a happy go lucky person but i cant really account for these odd episodes at all, i think it would be easier for me to avoid them if they didn't come out of know where, and disapear as suddenly as they come lol. I'm all ears (umm eyes) for getting to understand this one.
Cheers........JJ
Probably from dealing with all these DUMB doctors we deal with...
Actually I think just about anyone with a chronic illness tends to get irritable a lot. It comes from various aspects of what is going on in our lives so the root causes may differ from one person to another.
A large part probably comes from the constant stress we are under in trying to understand and deal with the illness. That can wear down a person's nerves real quick. Sleep problems also play a major role in this as well.
Another aspect that can contribute is the lose of self we feel. One day we are on top of the world health wise and the next we can't do any of the things we use to do. I know I get more irritable during flares for this reason. I am angry that I can't do something that just the day before I could do and I tend to lash out at every thing and one.
Dennis
That is my somber moment for the day..no more allowed.. :)
Actually I think just about anyone with a chronic illness tends to get irritable a lot. It comes from various aspects of what is going on in our lives so the root causes may differ from one person to another.
A large part probably comes from the constant stress we are under in trying to understand and deal with the illness. That can wear down a person's nerves real quick. Sleep problems also play a major role in this as well.
Another aspect that can contribute is the lose of self we feel. One day we are on top of the world health wise and the next we can't do any of the things we use to do. I know I get more irritable during flares for this reason. I am angry that I can't do something that just the day before I could do and I tend to lash out at every thing and one.
Dennis
That is my somber moment for the day..no more allowed.. :)
Good question! Anybody have a solid answer?
(no offense Meg-I meant scientifically- I , too, have headaches and sleep deprivation as well which is what I base my irritability on as well.)
Ren
(no offense Meg-I meant scientifically- I , too, have headaches and sleep deprivation as well which is what I base my irritability on as well.)
Ren
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