Why we should pay teachers more

[melimeli]

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-burlington-homicide-20110302,0,5929267.story

boy 12 kills his mom, dad, critically injures his brother and sister.. ummm  he was in some poor teachers 6th grade class, I am guessing he was not an angel in class either

[brice1967]

I totally believe a lot of this is strictly a political thing.  I am not familiar with the Kok brothers though.  Ill have to look them up.  But don't worry, the left has George Sorros (sic) and his worlds largest bank book.  He funnels plenty of money down the left lane.

Again, the system is broken.... it's everything government..... I am clueless as to whats going to happen next.

[teko]

Im not a union member brice, but I think we have that scenario already set in place. Example the Kok? brothers who finance the far right agenda, so maybe that is what they are worried about and this is all political? Are they afraid the unions will back the dems? A sure fired way to get obama re elected is to do exactly what they are doing then. So who do I thank?

[brice1967]

I'd suggest that besides cutting or rather than cutting teachers pay, start with the administration.  Re-evaluate all of those positions and consider your lay offs there.  Again, they are union employees as well.  I still say that unions are protecting a lot of inefficiency and the rest of the good teachers get lumped in with the inefficiency.  That isn't fair, and you don't see the unions doing anything about that.

And as for pay raises... (first year teachers in our district make $50k annually) although there is not a "monetary" product being produced, there is a tangible product being produced.  Testing proves where students are excelling or failing.  If I child tests at one level before entering say 5th grade, but tests lower going into 6th grade.... there is a problem somewhere.  Not addressing the problem is allowing it to grow.  (Sure, some of this element lies with the student....)  If you have a teacher who is constantly putting out students testing at a higher level, those are the teachers who should be considered for a pay increase.  That is the tangible proof that a teacher is doing their job, the students testing higher that is.

IMO, unions are a bit dated.  They are not doing the job they initially did.  Unions were instrumental in the 40 hour work week, anti-child labor laws and the likes.  But there are general laws now that protect the worker on those fronts.  Unions themselves, the administrations have grown to giant, giant proportions!  They need all of the dues paying members they can muster in order to just meet administration pay-roll.  IMO, I think unions and anti-corporation atmospheres (taxation in this country) are responsible for a lot of manufacturing businesses leaving the country.  It's kind of hard to pay an assembly worker, (relatively un skilled) $40 plus an hour with benefits when you can go elsewhere and pay 3 people with that same $40 per hour.  It's just good business sense.

If unions were really concerned with business sense, they'd look out for their overhead.... but they don't have too.  All they have to do is raise union dues.  

Just a question to union members..... do you have a problem with unions backing a politician that you don't like or care to back, someone who goes against pretty much everything you are for? (I'm not for sure why that question popped into my head... probably no coffee yet! LOL)

[teko]

As I said, two of my best friends were teachers and they were married to each other and were christian. One taught 6th grade and the other taught 3rd. When it started that the teacher could not discipline the class, parents seemed to quit caring, and teachers were expected to be able to medically diagnose children for ADD, ADHD and the like, they decided to opt out of teaching altogether. I think this is what happened to our schools. All the good ones quit. My friends made middle income of about 40 thou which would be more like 48 now I guess as this was a few years back. The husband is now a dean of a community college in a rurel town out by where they live in Ohio and the wife went back to school and became a psychologist and has a christian practice in her local town. Sadly they both had their doctors degree in teaching too. We need to let the teachers get back to teaching and the doctors to treating the medical aspect and hold the parents accountable as well as their kids. IMO And just IMO

[adgal]

Ryder's daycare is super expensive.  But I chose one with an early start program and their education standards and experience for their early childhood educators were higher then the average.  I will never complain about the cost (ok, sometimes I natter, but not really..lol), because it's just too important. We make cuts in our budget in other areas. I agree, we don't put the value on our children we should and again Teko, I agree.  Look at what others make for taking care of far less important matters. Nope, I support teachers..always have and always will.  The most important profession I can think of.

I probably don't know enough about unions to make a really educated comment on how necessary they are.  It just sometimes seems that some of them are being unreasonable in demands and I guess that is what I am basing my comments on.

[teko]

Ya know, I dont think Unions can keep someone working that is not doing the job they were hired to do. I am a believer in unions as they were invented for the people to protect them and their jobs with fair wages and the such. So not sure where the bad rap came from with unions. Pick on the middle class some more now is what it seems like. Give to the rich and take from the poor some more! I will get out and carry a sign and I have never worked under a union before!

When you look at the ungodly amounts of money that some professions pay and then we complain about paying our teachers. Well, I think its kinda backwards! Our teachers have our very future of our country in their hands and deserve the best as far as Im concerned.

Parents are where the problems lie. The kids control the parents now days and it is unlawful to do much of anything other than a time out. If the kids dont want to do the homework, what you gonna do to em besides give em and F? Without getting fired or sued that it. I gotta take my hat off to teachers, cause for what they put up with and what they get paid to do it is simply not worth it!

[melimeli]

unions for teachers are necessary since we are not producing  a monetary product we would never get a pay increase without them, even with them it is super hard to get a pay increase.  We value our children in society less than everything else you can see that in the penalties that are given for crimes against kids.  This is why we pay teacher as little as we can get away with

[adgal]

I actually have a huge issue with cutting teachers pay.  We are going through the same thing here right now...layoffs coming, etc.  Now, of course we need to encourage bad teachers to move onto other careers.  But for the good teachers....as far as I am concerned we can't pay them enough.  Education is the last place we should be making cuts.  We are entrusting our children to them, and there is nothing on the face of the planet more important.  Our children spend several hours a day with their teachers and have such an incredible influence on them.  If we continue to cut education, where is our future?  Surely there are other places cuts can be made.

As for unions...I have mixed feelings about them as well.  I think the general principal behind unions is a good one, and in the past they were necessary.  What frustrates me is that in professions with unions, it tends to make the bad folk almost untouchable.  Everyone should be judged and paid according to their own skill set and ability...not as a group.  So while perhaps a unified voice is important in some cases, I do think they have for the most part outlived their usefulness.  Just my opinion.

Teko, I agree with what you say.  Warren's colleague is married to a teacher and he and I were chatting at the company Christmas party.  He was telling me awful stories about some of the parents he deals with.  Their kids are failing, not doing homework or studying and they blame the teacher.  When he asks them how much time they spend with their kids at home, it's a blank look and a "your the teacher, helping them with that stuff is not my responsibility"...yikes.  Things keep going like that and we are in big trouble.

[brice1967]

My only problem with teachers is the teachers union protecting teachers that are inept.  Instead of removing them, they transplant the problems elsewhere.  The dues an inept teacher pays is more important that the rest of the teachers integrity in the eye's of the union.  If that weren't the case, the union would be first in removing the problem in order to save their own integrity.

I was raised in a single parent household on an elementary school teachers wages.  I am more than aware that they are underpaid.  

I also know that there were inept teachers while my mom was teaching, even in her own school-not counting on the whole district, that gave the rest of the good teachers a bad name.  My mother was required to keep up with continued education, at her own financial cost and was seldom rewarded for that continued education.

The education system as a whole is a debacle.  There are over 80 government entities governing teachers..... why?  Everything within education needs refining, from the bottom up!  I mean, there are kids in our district that have been in the district for better than 3 years that still do not speak english.... and we enable that.  We have special classes that reteach what was taught in the regular classroom....  Discipline is almost non-existant in public schools these days.  (In my home town which is 5 times larger now than it was when I went to school, simply transplants school problems.  If a kid screws up in this school, no worries!  We'll make him go to school over there.... we aren't working on the problem, we are transplanting and in turn are receiving other schools problems.... doe's anyone else see this as a problem, or is it just me)  

Why isn't school administration addressing these problems?  Isn't that why there are there?  They are the professionals, they are the ones who are supposed to keep everything going in the right direction.  If they are not doing it, it's right time to find someone who can get the job done.  With all of the government employees watching over our schools, how can we still have this level dysfunction and this level of students coming out of schools under-educated?  The answer is, some people within that system are not doing their jobs!  From the ground up... teachers, vice-principals, principals, deans, and the people who over see them..... then they are further protected by their unions.  Just like problem kids being shuffled around, they are doing it with the educators as well.

[teko]

I have not read all the responses here, so I apologize if I duplicate anyone. My best friends were teachers. Personally, I think teachers are underpayed for what they do and overworked in the sense that they are now expected to not only teach reading, writing and arithmatic, but nowdays are expected to be a medical doctor, a psychologist and a disciplinarian on top of all that teaching experience. Now add up all those professions and see what the average teacher is worth and you will find that they are terribly underpaid. And lets not forget that we have taken all the power to control the classroom away from the teachers. I am not sure what it is that people expect from the teacher these days. It is not their responsibility to raise your children, only teach them. What happened to your responsibility in all this as parents?

[brice1967]

I've got no reason to believe that you are not an excellent teacher.  But you know there are teachers, perhaps in your school or at the very least in your district, that get paid what you do and do not do the quality of work you do.... that's the fly in the ointment.  Unions are protecting those who don't put the same effort in you do, day in and day out.

My wife worked as a para-professional in our district here.  Her education is in special education, but she has been trained in so many things.... her education covers so much more.  Anyhow, you take a woamn like my wife who adores kids, understands policies, understands procedures, and knows how to teach.... then you take someone who really doesn't like kids, but yeah, they know policy and procedure.... plunk them both in the exact same position.... who does better?  My wife does, because her concern is with the kids.  Our district here is full of people not interested in the kids, and that is the most unfortunate thing I've ever seen.  Consequently, we also have good teachers retiring early, because the cirriculum restrains them from pushing, or in some cases even getting to some kids who could literally blow our socks off with what they know or could learn.  That is the biggest tragedy out there in public education....

At one time there was a horrible break down of what the classroom would look like.  It was something like the top 5% of thier grade, the bottom 5% of their grade, and then the rest of the class was compromised of the rest.... b, c, d, students.  That is unfair too.  The brilliant kids have their tacher taken away, the bottom dwellers don't get enough time from the teacher, and the jumble in the middle is spread too thin..... It can't work that way.  (Education reform is a big thing with me.... I'd go for all kinds of reform if I were running for office....)

[melimeli]

no I don't mean to pay them more, but teachers salaries are getting cut so much.  This year I am making less than last year because of paying more for health care.  BTW there is no tenure in the state I work in.

[brice1967]

Without a doubt, parenting is going with way side in so, so many cases.  Respect towards teachers is waning.

But this kid killing his parents can't warrant a pay raise for teachers, can it?  Truth be told, a lot of people are dealing with a growing lack of disrespect.... it's not just teachers.  It's everywhere... I'm sure you've seen the horrible lack of manners regarding todays youth.

With teachers being paid more, if they are doing their job successfully... hell yes give em a raise!  A good one, at that!  If they aren't doing their job and are hiding under the veil of their union....I guess transplant them (which is what happens with bad teachers.  I have a good story about that too that I can get too if you want) and let someone else adopt another problem, instead of getting rid of the problem.

[ILADVOCATE]

   I think that students should show some basic respect for teachers (again having a family member who was a teacher I was told some stories about what it was like when sometimes this didn't occur and it impacted on the learning environment in general) in the same way I did and many other students (though not all did) when I was a young person. Unfortunately in order to deal with this they have had to make a wide variety of regulations to control abusive behavior from students (anti-bullying laws, searches when students enter schools, security guards) none of which were necessary before and shouldn't have to be. An incident like this thankfully is an extreme rarity. Unfortunately minor incidents that occur on an everyday basis have ruined some schools, including students who do want to learn. Restructuring some schools and how they function and setting up charter schools and other constructive measures have brought more of a sense of respect to schools and a more cohesive learning environment.

[melimeli]

well it was a 12 year old that recently killed his parents and shot his brothers.  Teachers have a ton to deal with, uncontrollable kids with horrible parenting is huge.  I think parenting has more affect on kids success in school than good teachers.

[brice1967]

For some reason, I could not get the link to pop up.  I'd like to chime in on not only teachers pay, but almost every professions pay.  

When evaluating someone's pay, there are quite a few things one must take into account.  Education in the field, experience in the field, quality of work, are just a few that I could think of off the top of my head.  (I was raised by a mother who was an educator in the public school system)

Quality of work, I believe is the most important thing to consider.  Obviously there has to be a starting wage for every job.... but what I think is of uber importance is.... when a student leaves a teachers classroom, that student should be smarter than when he/she arrived!  If the majority of students leave the class dumber than when they arrived, this teacher is not entitled to a pay raise.... nor is she entitled to pay comparable to other teachers doing a better job/having more success.  In fact, if she is not meeting standards, she should be replaced.... and again, this does not just apply to teachers... its all professions!

I've got mixed emotions about unions.  I feel as if they may have outlived their usefulness.  By this I mean, in some cases (the teacher who continually does not meet standards within the classroom) the union is protecting this teacher.  I think this is detrimental!  (I also think there is an issue regarding the cirriculum)  Instead of removing this teacher from the teaching pool, we simply transplant them.  Now the problem, an inadequate teacher has been transplanted and not removed.  Now someone else has taken on this liability... by force essentially.

Other teachers are often unfairly judged by the efforts of this lack-luster effort by an inadequate teacher.  That is not fair, but that is what the union is reaping by protecting this teacher.  

I personally think unions are far more concerned about the union dues being paid than they are about everyone's rights and benefits these days.  They were instrumental in creating a safe work environment, acceptable hours, child labor laws and the likes.  But currently there are more than 80 branches of the government looking out for or otherwise governing teachers....(far too many, but that's another issue)

Anyhow, that's my two cents worth.....