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LOW CARB or LOW FAT?
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LOW CARB or LOW FAT?

Wut is healthier? A low carb diet or a low fat diet? Wuts the diff anyway? I'm a vegetarian, wut diet is best for me to get all the nutrients i need.
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Low-carb is healthier. You'll get all the nutrients you need on a low-carb diet.

What's the difference? In a low-fat diet, you restrict your fat intake. In a low-carb diet, you restrict your carb intake. Protein intake on low-carb is moderate, so you maintain your muscle mass while losing body fat. It's easier to burn body fat  on a low-carb diet because ingestion of carbs causes your body to store glucose, which you burn first before you dip into your fat stores. If you don't ingest any glucose, you are running primarily on body fat.

Most folks who switch to low carb report increased energy levels  once past the first week or so of the switch. That's because your blood sugar can vary wildly with a high-carb, low-fat diet, causing increased appetite and changes in energy levels and mood swings. On low-carb, your blood sugar stays more stable because you are not ingesting carbs (glucose) that cause the swings in the first place.

The low-fat diet is a discredited fraud  that has been perpetrated on the American public for 40 years, and look where it's got us - epidemic numbers of obesity and diabetes. Do your body  a favor -  lose the low-fat diet.
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barn babe, there is SO much wrong with what you posted that it makes my head spin.  unfortunately, i am heading to bed and don't have time to refute what you wrote.  stay tuned for more info tomorrow, hopefully.  i am anxious to correct your information, as it is largely unscientific and untrue.
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Yeah, I remember you, "micaela27." You're the one who was apparently cutting class when they were teaching basic biochem, because you don't even know the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis.  

Where'd you say your "nutrition" degree was from again? The Mail Order School?
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Low carb is much better than low fat. You want to eat fats like fish, nuts, and olive oil. It helps your hair, nails, eyes, skin, brain and many other things. If low carbs is where you want to go that is fine but still eat your greens. And remember there is a BIG difference on how your body reacts to certain carbs like wheat versis rice.
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barnbabe, you said "If you don't ingest any glucose, you are running primarily on body fat."

let me copy for you word-for-word a section from one on my textbooks (that, according to you i purchased to attain my degree at the "Mail Order School"):

"Body protein can be converted to glucose to some extent, but protein has jobs of its own that no other nutrient can do.  Body fat cannot be converted to glucose to any significant extent, and although fat breakdown can yield energy for many of the body's cells, only glucose can provide energy for brain cells, other nerve cells, and developing red blood cells.  Thus, when a person does not replenish depleted goycogen stores by eating carbohydrates, body proteins are dismantled to make glucose to fuel these special cells.  The conversation of protein to glucose is called gluconeogenesis - literally, the making of new glucose.  Only adequate dietary carbohydrate can prevent this use of protein for energy, and this role of carbohydrate is known as its protein-sparing action.

An inadequate supply of carbohydrate combined with an accelerated breakdown of fat can shift the body's energy metabolism in a precarious direction.  With less carbohydrate available for energy, more fat may be broken down, but not all the way to energy.  Instead, the fat fragements combine with each other, forming ketone bodies.  Muscles and other tissues can use ketone bodies for energy, but when their production exceeds their use, they accumolate in the blood, causing ketosis, a condition that dusturbs the body's normal acid-base balance."
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while the body does end up USING fat in carb-starvation mode, it cannot rely primarily on it, as protein forms the source for all the glucose the body needs to maintain nerve and brain functioning.  i don't know about you, but i rely on my nervous system pretty heavily day to day, and am not willing to cheat it of the vital glucose it requires.

you also said "You'll get all the nutrients you need on a low-carb diet."

i beg to differ.  you'll get all the nutrients you need if you're EATING all the nutrients you need (including glucose and starches).  to say that cutting way back on carbs is some magical all-inclusive dietary solution is foolish at best, and i do not agree with your statement whatsoever.  not all low carb diets are the same and you can't be sure that the original poster would be getting everything s/he needed by following your advice.  how presumptuous of you!

furthermore, you said "On low-carb, your blood sugar stays more stable because you are not ingesting carbs (glucose) that cause the swings in the first place."

let me correct you.

1) on a low carb diet your blood stays ACIDIC, which is highly dangerous and not at all how our bodies are meant to operate.
2) ingesting glucose does NOT cause a blood sugar swing.  hormones (insulin and glucagon) are responsible for blood sugar levels and implying that dietary sugars do is a real measure of your own education, or lack thereof.

finally... you said "The low-fat diet is a discredited fraud  that has been perpetrated on the American public for 40 years, and look where it's got us - epidemic numbers of obesity and diabetes."

the epidemic numbers of obesity are directly related to caloric consumption in general, not the macronutrient profile of specific diets.  Diabetes Type II is directly related to weight gain and, as such, is linked to this same trend, which has absolutely no correlation to low fat diets.  The fact is, people who intentionally eat a low fat diet most often gorge themselves on higher sugar foods, thereby causing a weight gain and increasing their chances of dabetes.  your extrapolation that low fat diets are the cause of our obesity epidemic and diabetic explosion is mind boggling.
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oh, and sweetheart??  i know exactly what i'm talking about when i compare ketosis and ketoacidosis.  while you were signing up for Atkins emails, i was spending 4 years studying this stuff in a reputable 4 year institution.  i said what i meant in your ridiculous "cholesterol con" propaganda post and if you didn't understand, it's probably because you've been so brainwashed that you can't see the medical truth in what i'm saying.

good luck to you because with a perspective like yours - you'll need all the luck you can get.
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WOW well put!!!
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"“while the body does end up USING fat in carb-starvation mode, it cannot rely primarily on it, as protein forms the source for all the glucose the body needs to maintain nerve and brain functioning."

Carb-starvation does not equal food starvation. Ingesting sufficient amounts of protein means there is plenty of protein for the body to take up and convert to blood sugar as well as the other functions it has, such as building new muscle.

Glad to hear you like your nervous system, but you really don’t give human physiology and the human body enough credit for being able to multi-task, do you? Carb starvation is not food starvation. That’s why a low-carb diet is superior to a high-carb one – protein remains adequate at the same time that insulin stays LOW – that’s the duo you want. As long as insulin levels remain low, it is difficult to store fat. That's why low-carb diets work so well - maintaining muscle mass while burning body fat at the same time. When LC diets go head-to-head with high-carb diets, the LC dieters always lose more weight in the same time period. Always. But something else also happens: They lose more body fat and less muscle compared to the high-carb dieters. High-carb dieters lose something like 25-35% of their weight in muscle mass. Low-carb eaters lose much less muscle mass. Must be something to that, "micaela." What do you think it is?  Could it be....higher protein levels? Fewer carbs?  

"you also said "You'll get all the nutrients you need on a low-carb diet."
i beg to differ.  you'll get all the nutrients you need if you're EATING all the nutrients you need (including glucose and starches).  to say that cutting way back on carbs is some magical all-inclusive dietary solution is foolish at best, and i do not agree with your statement whatsoever.  not all low carb diets are the same and you can't be sure that the original poster would be getting everything s/he needed by following your advice.  how presumptuous of you!"

Caps key broken? Sorry, but your  "facts" aren't specific to low-carb diet, as much as you'd love them to be.   Low- carb, high-carb, medium-carb, no-carb. You can find lower-nutrient food in all levels of macronutrient intakes. Big deal.  If you are telling me that people on high-carb diets always get adequate nutrients because it’s a “magical all-inclusive dietary solution,” you’ve got your head you-know-where. Try again.

I would also argue that it’s more difficult to get all of the required nutrients on a high-carb diet than on a low-carb diet. Ever seen the USDA “Pyramid?” Yeah,  you were probably well-schooled in that pyramid scheme. The Pyramid is completely fraudulent.  There are now reputable physicians, like Willett at Harvard and Bray at the Pennington Center, who are denouncing the “Pyramid.” And these aren’t even the folks who publicly support low-carb diets.  (Although Willett did come out and say that there was merit to a very low-carb diet, which on its face is amazing, considering the source.)  The USDA Pyramid  is bogus. Yeah, that Pyramid. The one you were "schooled" in, no doubt.

"furthermore, you said "On low-carb, your blood sugar stays more stable because you are not ingesting carbs (glucose) that cause the swings in the first place."

1) on a low carb diet your blood stays ACIDIC, which is highly dangerous and not at all how our bodies are meant to operate."

You went from blood sugar to bloodstream – must be  your ADD kicking in. Try to stay on point here. But I’ll play along, just for sh*ts and giggles:

Sounds like you didn’t get the memo – low carb diets don’t contribute to bone loss.  I assume you are citing the so-called danger of blood acidity on a low-carb diet to equate it with the concern of bone loss.  Well, guess what? It doesn’t happen. Compared to a high-carb diet, low-carb diets showed no measurable difference in bone turnover. Surprised even the researchers, that one did. You can google that one. It’s all over the tubes. Nice try, though.

"2) ingesting glucose does NOT cause a blood sugar swing.  hormones (insulin and glucagon) are responsible for blood sugar levels and implying that dietary sugars do is a real measure of your own education, or lack thereof. "

It’s common knowledge (and not rocket science) that  consuming more calories in the form of carbs stimulates insulin production to increase blood sugars. What’s the unintended consequence here? More hunger due to highs and lows in blood sugar, which increases calorie consumption, leading to more ingestion of carbs. It’s a vicious cycle, one that you promote with a high-carb diet.

And stop fooling folks into thinking there are “good” and “bad” carbs. There are simply carbs. Some provide nutrients with small amounts of carbs, and some are nutritionally bankrupt or simply providing too many carbs. Simple and complex carbs are metabolized exactly the same by the body – metabolized to glucose. One is done faster than the other (that would be the fiber angle, right?), but all carbs are processed EXACTLY THE SAME once ingested.

Eating too many complex carbs results in the same blood glucose levels as eating too many refined and simple carbs. And both require more insulin to stabilize blood sugar.

How long are you going to foist this nutritionally inadequate and deadly diet on folks, “micaela?” How long do you think people’s metabolisms can withstand the highs and lows of blood sugar swings before insulin resistance sets in?  Here’s your answer: Most people can’t, and we are seeing the results of this in the epidemics of diabetes, heart disease, and obesity. The body becomes compromised when you assault it day after day with foods that fail to allow it to function properly and in fact cause further damage to it.

“the epidemic numbers of obesity are directly related to caloric consumption in general, not the macronutrient profile of specific diets.”

You still want to ignore the elephant in the room – insulin.  Excessive carb consumption causes unstable blood sugars and insulin resistance. That causes increased hunger, which  again leads to higher calorie intakes. If people cut the carbs, appetite is naturally controlled. That leads to natural calorie control. That leads to weight loss. And macronutrients have EVERYTHING to do with that. But you go right ahead and ignore it.

Did you know that before insulin was “invented,” the medical remedy  for diabetes was to put the patient on a restricted-carb diet?  Did they tell you that in Mail Order School? Probably not. Why do you think that was, “micaela?”  What do you think the medical folks knew back then that you refuse to recognize? Take a guess.

We are not adapted to eating large amounts of carbs.  That’s from an evolutionary standpoint. We are adapted for high-fat moderate-protein diets, with low or no carbs. That’s what we evolved to eat. It’s what controls our insulin better than any other plan you could possibly recommend. High carb diets are being implicated in atherogenesis. Insulin is an incredibly powerful hormone – just look at the damage  diabetes does to people. Organ damage, nerve damage. It is also related to heart (muscle) damage – atherosclerosis. Our systems can’t handle it. The blowback from a high-carb diet is huge. Weight gain, ongoing hunger in trying to control calorie intake while at the same time not understanding that the foods we are using for “dieting” are the cause of the problem in the first place -  and “nutritionists”  like you who continue to push high-carb and “low fat” diets as some kind of panacea but  making the problem worse.

I think the results of this phony b.s. “low-fat” “high-carb” experiment speak for themselves – after 40 years of foisting high carbs on the western world, the blowback is obvious: heart disease, diabetes, obesity, and more.  

But, hey, that sheepskin gives you the "authority," so who am I to be messing with a real live "nutritionist?" Yeesh.

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an angry AND misinformed poster!  what a double treat.

you jump to an amazing amount of conclusions here, so let me just pick out a few of my favorites:

1) "Glad to hear you like your nervous system, but you really don’t give human physiology and the human body enough credit for being able to multi-task, do you?"

if by "multitask" you mean scramble to use the insufficient pieces of a fragmented diet to piece-meal the absolute minimum amount of glucose required for cerebral and nervous functioning, all the while allowing the blood pH to spiral downward into dangerously acidic levels and depriving the liver of any and all necessary and protective glycogen stores for times of real starvation, then yes i suppose you're right, honey.  ::rolls eyes::

2) "If you are telling me that people on high-carb diets always get adequate nutrients because it’s a “magical all-inclusive dietary solution,” you’ve got your head you-know-where."

no, sweetheart, i'm not telling you that.  read for comprehension.  nowhere in my statement did i even approach what you're implying.  see, that's the thing with zealots like you.  you jump to conclusions that on your end seem to "prove" your point, yet are either unrooted in truth or completely fabricated to begin with.

3) "Sounds like you didn’t get the memo – low carb diets don’t contribute to bone loss."

what???  who said anything about bone loss?  are you that narrowminded that you can't accept there may be o-t-h-e-r harmful ramifications to letting your blood pH spiral out of control? geesh.  also, please stop gratuitously throwing around the label ADD.  it just makes you look foolish and childish.

4) "It’s common knowledge (and not rocket science) that  consuming more calories in the form of carbs stimulates insulin production to increase blood sugars."

a small correction:  insulin does nothing to "increase" blood sugar.  if anything, insulin decreases blood sugar, as its primary function is to facilitate the uptake of glucose into cells for use, thereby lowering the blood glucose levels.  what makes me laugh is that you yourself admitted this isn't rocket science, yet proceeded to say a completely false and unintelligent statement right after that.  wow.  that's embarassing (not to mention discrediting).

i think the hormone you're talking about here is glucacon, but who am i to know anything, right??  i'm just a silly little nutritionist and you're Sally-Anne Atkins, carb-fighter extraordinaire!!!

say it with me....  GLU-CA-GON....  very good!  now you learned something.

we absolutely agree that a HIGH-CARB diet is not healthy, and nowhere in my prior posts have i advocated anyone stuffing their face full of Wonder Bread or white rice all day long.  again...  jumping to false conclusions.  you have some sort of vendetta out against insulin, claiming that we need to suppress it for maximum health, all the while forgetting (or ignoring?) that it's a vital and helpful hormone that is in our bodies to do its job.  if we screw with our bodies, sure....  we have problems with our insulin.  you and i agree on that point.  BUT...  we don't need to take eating to such an extreme that insulin is rendered useless and our body is surviving on 2/3rds of the calorie-yielding macronutrients it's supposed to have.  that's where you and i differ, and where science is absolutely on my side.

you certainly are fiery, i'll give you that.  if you weren't so misinformed and brainwashed, i'd probably like you.
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Wow, a debate teacher's dream I bet!

Micaela27 I give you 10 out of 10 points.  You sound way more educated, up to speed and polished! I'd take your advice any day.

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Ding ding ding!

The winner, by TKO:

Micaela27

(Que Rocky theme here...)
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Aww, sweetie, you get an A for the day!  (It's ChefSarah BTW).  I don't think I can hang out on this board.  I would get way too mad at stupid people.  That's why I quit frequenting the Diet and Fitness board.  :)
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WOW     You are awesome A++++


You go!!!!!
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Now I do want to point out something here. If research was properly done you would find out that the people who live the longest and healthiest would be the mediterranean life style and they eat rice and pasta. Now I am not an advocate of pasta but they eat it are the most healthiest by far than other cultures. And NO the japanese and chinese are not because they do not eat enough of the good fats - olive oil.
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Um, I'm not a teacher, I'm a lawyer. Not sure where the poster above got the idea I was a teacher.

I'd like to hear "micaela's" opinion on the Food Pyramid, since she claims not to be advocating a high-carb diet. Maybe she can show us how it's possible to get all the required nutrients 2,000 calories following the Pyramid. So far, it hasn't been done.

I'd also like to know what level of carbs she feels is optimal. I'd also like to know how she can say she doesn't advocate a high-carb diet at the same time as recommending that folks eat grains, fruits, and veggies.

I'd like also  like cites on blood pH "spiraling out of control" on low-carb diets and what that damage has included with respect to low-carb diets. I imagine I'll get the standard "do your own research here" response, but no harm in trying to get her to defend her point of view.

She's the expert, after all.
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hahaha who said you were a teacher?  the only reference anyone made to teaching was that this thread is a debate teacher's dream.  nobody called YOU a teacher.  i see a trend here with not reading things correctly, darling.  didn't you take my advice before??

...read for comprehension!!

my opinion on the food pyramid is that it works well as a guide for those who need a visual reference for how to balance a healthy diet.  i know i don't think much about the food pyramid on a daily basis, but i have an excellent working knowledge of nutrition and personally don't need to rely on simple, generalized models for healthy eating for myself.  the people i counsel in my job, however, are very reliant on the pyramid to teach them how to eat well.  these are people who think it's acceptable to feed your toddler a popsicle and a bag of Cheez Doodles for breakfast.  i'm not joking.  for these people, it's an important tool that i often use to show them how to categorize food into different families and how to look at food individuallly (i.e. a piece of lasagna isn't just "dinner"...  it's a carb serving, a meat serving, a dairy serving and a fat serving... and perhaps even a vegetable serving if you're making it saucy enough.)  for them, the concept that vegetables should be consumed every day is revolutionary.  they don't believe me when i say it's not appopriate to drink whole milk as an adult.  they need an easy to understand model for how to balance their food intake and i rely on the FGP to help me achieve that goal.

so yes, i believe the food pyramid can be a valuabe teaching tool.  it's not THE only teaching tool i use, but it's a good one to keep on hand, that's for sure!

your definition of high carb is rather skewed, in my opinion.  what i (and the vast majority of real nutrition professionals) consider to be normal carbohydrate consumption is a death trap to you (you work in extremes...  i wouldn't expect anything more from you than to assume that a well rounded diet is "high carb").  what i'm advocating is a healthy balance of all the macro and micro nutrients, including an appropriate amount of carbohydrates.  this amount varies from one person to another, and varies from one day to another, so your request for a simple answer is not something i can give.  i don't deal in numbers when it comes to putting a label on the general population.  each person's needs are very different and depend on the total calorie count, the daily activity level, the current level of health and the desired health goals.  you want me to say 200g a day?  not going to happen.  if you are keeping your carb consumption to between 40 and 60% of you daily caloric intake, that's appropriate.  i'm smarter than dealing in absolutes (like you do) and i don't assume everyone's body needs the same thing.

that's what being a real nutritionist is all about.  when you look at a person as having individual needs and requiring specialized diet tailoring, you're starting to get somewhere.  when you make blanket statements about entire food groups and gross generalizations, you're getting nowhere and you're going there fast.

your comment that my recommendation to eat fruits, veggies and grains means i advocate a "high carb" diet is laughable at best.  of course i'm going to recommend eating fruits, vegetables and grains!  do you think i'm completely mentally unhinged?  a better question is... . are YOU?  i will never back down from my stance that a diet rich in fruits, vegetables and wholesome grains (as well as an appropriate amount of calcium, fat and protein) is an appropriate diet to have.   you'd be hard pressed to find a nutrition professional who wouldn't agree with me on that point.

i sincerely hope you find someone to help you rearrange your perspective, because it needs some serious work - starting from the bottom up.
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Enough already, you're both closed-minded and ridiculous. I can't believe you both put that much energy into a message board! And then to get your "nest" friends to come and support you was really immature micaela27. Can't you stand on your own two feet? Ughh...I'm so glad this post is over.
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Not a "nest" friend just agree with her.
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208164_tn?1189759432
I prefer low calorie since that's all your limited to and you can consume fats and calories as long as you control the portions
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Wow... my head hurts now... bunch of BS to really not answer the question that was asked.  Want advise on a good diet or health action plan for yourself?  See your family doctor...
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I think a diet that is low in sugar and low in preservatives is what is really important. I think people get way too hyped up on diet fads when the key all along is not a diet at all but an actual lasting change in your lifestyle in the form of a commitment to healthy eating + exercise. I was a vegetarian myself for a year and a half and I actually ended up quite ill as a result despite the supplements I was taking to make up for the meat I wasn't eating. I don't believe I will ever go back to vegetarianism but I tell myself at least I appreciate the food I eat.
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Thank you for your low carb information on your posts.

After my doctor showed concern of my health, and carbohydrate enthusiastic eating habits, I researched the low carb diets because I had no clue what to do. I was only following what I was taught all my life by teachers,nutritionists, and the media. Now I know the poison they have shoved down our throats, saying we need carbs. This is all a lie. Humans do not need carbs. Quite the opposite.

Your posts inspired me. I had to learn more. And that I did. There are entire communities and peoples (Inuit for example) that are zero carb and healthier than the carb eaters. I was so misinformed before.

After reasearch I went zero carb. I was afraid because of what people like Micheala preached. I am a zero carb believer now.

I have been zero carb for almost 5 months now and I have never felt better. I have met some friends that have been zero carb for years and are very healthy.

I have gone back to normal weight, hair and skin are beautiful like 20 years ago, and I have energy that I never thought I could have again. I got rid of the poisonous carbs in my body, and now I use energy from my own body fat and even think clearer.

Zero carb changed my life. I also am helping a friend's child that came here to stay with me and go to school here.
He arrived with what seemed to be mental fogginess and concentration problems.His family are followers of the food pyramid, eat your vegetables,here is some whole grain cereal and bread for breakfast mindset. He loves zero carbing with me and is back to his normal self! His grades are going up, where they were about to give up on him being able to go to college at all. His skin has cleared up, his dandruff gone and he is getting healthier everyday.

I occasionally get a comment of..." but your body needs good carbs..." They are just as I was, misinformed. My body responds so well to zero carb. I am a new person. 20 years younger person.

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No carbs?  You mean you eat no vegetables?  No legumes?  No fiber whatsoever?  Only meat?  Methinks you don't know what a carb is.  I just stumbled on this thread, and though it's quite old, it's so full of misinformation it's quite humorous.  Give me more!
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I prefer the advice, regarding diets, that my brother's girlfriend (a nutritonist) gave him years ago..."if you want to live healthier, quite eating like a pig!"
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Avatar_m_tn
Google ketogenic diet. Yes, some people live zero-carb. Not humorous, just a variation on the theme of diet. A ketogenic diet can control drug-resistant childhood epilepsy, and is used theraputically. It's not necessarily zero-carb, but very low indeed. And there are plenty of zero-carbers around, for health reasons of their own. (With enough fat in the diet, you don't need all that fibre.)

The research has been done - barn babe is right. Low-carb and high fat is healthier than high-carb and low-fat. Micaela27 quotes "Body protein can be converted to glucose to some extent, but protein has jobs of its own that no other nutrient can do.  Body fat cannot be converted to glucose to any significant extent, and although fat breakdown can yield energy for many of the body's cells, only glucose can provide energy for brain cells..."

This, the very first of her "facts", is wrong. In fact, the brain loves ketones (products of fat-burning) - they seem even to be a preferred source of energy for the brain. The cells with little or no mitochondria that must have glucose can get it from gluconeogenesis. Without carbs, there's plenty of room in the diet for all the protein you need to make glucose, and you can run your body and brain most efficiently on that small amount, and fats. Everyone is different, and some will do better on a very low-carb diet than others, but there's no doubt at all that high carb overloads the liver with glycogen and can cause fatty liver even in children, wears out the pancreas and insulin receptor cells, and keeps your blood sugar levels yo-yoing, which is hard on the heart and circulatory system and contributes to cartdiovascular disease.

I know it's an old thread I stumbled upon, but had to comment. Disappointed that Micaela27 convinced people. She's wrong (and her text-book is written in such simplistic terms that I doubt her qualifications required rigorous study).

Micaela27 - wow, rude AND ignorant.
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Avatar_m_tn
Why is it always a question of one or the other? A healthy diet needs carbohydrates, fats and proteins. More important to eat healthy options of each than just one or the other.
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