AnotherKatie...Go to Hot Flashes, 3/15...I think this will help!

Katie, The post posted (!)...go to Hot Flashes. Sorry you are feeling so crummy. I think the post will be helpful. Mary

[AnotherKatie]

Thanks! I wrote ya back down there. "Always a little door beside a big door, right?!"  I'm on a FemGest mission!
Love, Katie

[Mary 53]

Hi, Glad the information helped, DebiR. I think my sister always had the progesterone and bi-est mixed together. Next time I talk with my pharmacist I can ask him why or why not he might do this, but I think for me they are just keeping it separate so that we can adjust doses easier. Plus, I recall a few years ago when I was undergoing a great amount of job-related stress, I could feel that something was missing. I was instructed to use just a wee bit more of the progesterone since in times of stress, the cell receptors that take in the progesterone are busy with the cortisol (stress hormone) recepting...or close to that. But, in 5 years, I only did that a few times and that was during that particular few weeks.

I am trying to remember when you had your surgery...very recently, right? I hear you when you say that you are starting to feel better than you have in a few years. I cried for about a week about a month after I started taking the progesterone because I had not felt so well in years. I was 48 at the time...and, it was almost a year after my surgery. (My Gyn/Oncologist put me on the Estrogen Vivelle patch right after the surgery) Basically, I was balanced out again as far as the progesterone and estrogen and the feeling was unreal for me.

Wondering if you are taking testosterone? Not sure if this would affect headache issues. Just wondering. I use it a few times a week, although mine is more of a topical application that helps with sensitivity issues. Testosterone can be in your system without the use of the type of topical product I use, I do believe. I take DHEA and that is a precurser to testosterone and other vital hormones. You might what to check with your doctor to see if that might be helpful. Dr. Uzzi Reiss (hormone book that is excellent) and I am certain Northrup, too,  offer ideas for this as well. I would have to dbl. check the Northrup book, but she is so thorough that I would be surprised if she did not.
DHEA is available without a prescription, but a script used to be needed for it. From what I have read on other sites, there is controversy about how much one should take. My doctor has me on 25mg.a day, but I had to bump to 50 mg. for awhile.
I did have one thought...since you are sleeping better (yeah!) might you be a little off schedule as far as a morning cup of coffee goes? If you are not a coffee drinker, well, there goes that theory. I have one large cup in the morning around 6am and one in the late afternoon. If I miss either one, I set myself up for a headache. Sometimes on the weekends or days off, I get up early and have a small cup of coffee and then go back to bed. No headache.

They discovered years ago that often the after-surgery headaches were not necessarily caused by the anesthesia, but by the fact that men and women had not had the usual morning cup of coffee. The last time I had surgery, I had a cup right before the midnight fast, and...no headache.

Gol, I sound like the queen of trivia.

I do recommend Dr. Christiane Northrup's book..."The Wisdom of Menopause." So much good information there.

I wish I could help you more with the headache thing. Although, you know, I just started my new hormones just over a week ago. My pharmacist did warn me that I might have some "break through" symptoms from the chage in dosing. On Thursday, I had a bad headache after work...tried to nap it off, but still had it the next morning. It did go away that afternoon. I am kind of "headache prone"...but, if I go to bed with a headache, I rarely wake up with one. So, I kind of contributed it to the hormone change.

I did have horrible migraine-like headaches before my surgery...a perimenopausal thing. But, I have not had that type since I have been hormonally balanced.

Hope this helps. Take care. Keep posting! Mary

[Mary 53]

Hey Mary, You might feel a lot younger when I tell you that even though  you told us what the TY stood for (thank you) it took me a few minutes to put it all together...I saw the TY..and, I saw "Thank You"...and, I was still trying to figure it out!

So sorry about the confusion. I was just checking in before bed and I saw your question and gosh, I can see where I left people hanging. I do apologize for that.

I was responding to a post under surgical menopause to DebiR and then I saw that AnotherKatie had referred her to the March 15/16 thread under "Hot Flashes." So, I posted a new thread just to let DebiR know that I finally saw her question to me, and she posted five days before I saw it. Then Katie had a question on one of the threads mentioned, and she referenced a comment she'd made on the Hot Flash thread so I would be sure to see it, and so I went to Hot Flash and read the thorough answer.

FemGest is a Progesterone cream sold over the counter. There is extensive info on it under "Hot Flashes."  But, since I'd started a thread just letting people know that the Hot Flash thread was still alive, katie commented that she'd found the thread and was on a mission to get some of the cream.

Wonderful party tonight. Sorry I had to leave for awhile. Take care, Mary

[DebiR]

Thanks for all the good info - especially the absorption.  I can tell you that after only three days on the biest I am sleeping better than I have slept in two years.   I know I have been raging through peri for at least that.  The only thing is that I wake up with a pounding headache.  Is that from the dosage do you think?  I have the prog mixed right in with the biest.   I am looking forward to getting to the point you are at.  Is it important to have your levels checked after a certain period of time?   And then how often?

[DebiR]

Thanks Mary - gosh you have such great and helpful information.  You are so kind to share it!  Yes I am (unfortunately) a huge coffee drinker.  So I was wondering if that was part of the issue as well.  Also figuring it could just be the general havoc my body has been through in the last week.  One week ago ago we were flying home from Switzerland!  Then the night before surgery I had the "colon prep from hell".  Up all night trying to get the Golytely (who names it that anyway?) down and then controlling the "output".  Then of course surgery and waiting for path which still not in though doc says not to worry.  Then she throws out this little tidbit about "scarring" on my liver - "but don't worry about it".  What the hell?  (Endometriosis on the liver maybe? though she didn't say that - just my googling finds)  

So in general it could just be reaction to everything. I am so thrilled to be sleeping that even the price of waking up with a headache is ok for right now.  I also wonder if it takes some time for balance to happen while your own estrogen is leaving your body after the ovaries are removed (how long does that take?)  Anyway, reading your posting that says you feel better than you have in years gives me such hope because my hormones have been in havoc since my radiation for my thyroid cancer.  My doc says the radiation can do that so I am not too upset about the ovaries going as it offers the possiblity of being balanced again!  Thanks for the information and for offering hope!

By the way, as I recall, you did have ovca, right?  Was yours not estrogen receptive and that is why you can do hrt?  I feel so bad for the women who are dealing with ovca and cannot do hrt.  It is such a double whammy.  Thanks again~

[DebiR]

Sorry if I am being a pest but I was wondering about dosage.  My BiEst cream is 5mg plus 200mg of prog twice a day.  Is that high?  I can't find much dosage info but what I found seems like it doesn't go up that high.  I am wondering if it is a misprint and meant to be .5?

[Mary 53]

Hi Debi, I do not feel competent trying to explain my dosing. This is one area where my research has not been complete. Probably for the same reason you stated...not a lot of info readily available. Check Suzanne Somers' book "The Sexy Years" as she gives dosing info, and also Dr. Reiss book on Natural hormones. Both great books...along with Northrup's. I was on the Vivelle 0.1 patch and the pharm. said he thought that was a bit high for me and causing symptoms which could not be aleviated by the progesterone because in order to balance the estrogen, I would have needed to take a big dose of the PRO.(Starting to abbreviate..forgive me)and then I could have possibly blown out my progesterone receptors. So, I just started the biest at 50-50..equal portions estrodial and estriol. The tube has 30 grams in it and I apply 1/2 ml twice daily with one day off a week for a "hormone holiday"..that is the real term! And, typically, a tube lasts a week. For the PRO. I use the exact same amount ..1/2 ml twice daily from a 30 gram tube except for Sundays.

[Mary 53]

The next question is a bit tricky and I will have to put my disclaimers out there and encourage people to do their research...but, here goes.

Malignant cells were drained from a cyst on the ovary during a tubal ligation procedure. The doc was going to check the cyst...and, look for endometriosis, which I also had, and check for yet again cervical dysplasia...for which I have also had to have surgery as it was at the near cancer stage back in 1997 (Severe Cervical dysplasia). Oh, yes, and he was going to do the tubal...I recall laughing with the doctor before the surgery because it was almost more of an exploratory thing rather than a surgery. Two days later the doc called to see how I was doing. I had just checked in with him as planned the eve. before, so I thought...wow! I knew he was a nice guy, but to check in again on me, well...The next thing he had to tell me was that they found malignant cells in that cyst. We were both flabergasted, but I tell you...I had a feeling something was very wrong, and rather than fall apart, I was just stunned. The next thing he told me..and, then told my spouse, was that the took the liberty to make an appt. with an oncologist/gyn and that he would like  her to do the surgery. She was great...did the surgery and took it all ...cervix, everything...and before the path report came back, she slapped a patch of Vivelle on me.

Now, no more cancer was found during the surgery itself, and she was pretty surprised and would wait for the path report, but she had not seen any, except there was concern because they found black spots on my diaphram and bladder. Later discovered that these were burned out pieces of endometriosis. So, the cancer question and further treatment questions were still out there. None-the-less, she gave me the patch. To me that was her way of saying, here...don't suffer.

But, it was not what I think of when I hear HRT. This was BHRT. The B is for Bioidentical. And, the difference is huge. HRT treats symptoms of menopause whereas BHRT restores bioidentical hormones in the body. But, I had to find out on my own about the value of balancing the progesterone. I now feel more protected than ever and I am certain (my opinion) that my near cervical cancer and the just-starting ovarian cancer was caused by the total imbalance of estrogen in my body. I had the symptoms for years. The doctor found symptoms that I was not ovulating on some months..that means no progesterone at all in your body.

My doctor is not at all  worried that I am on these. He supports it and is always curious as to how well I am feeling. He has started to delve more into studying the bio's. In my case, the pharmacist is the most knowledgable party and he keeps my doctor in the loop for final approval of my scripts. I would not go off these for anything. I get a bit extra passionate here, and at times you hear all sorts of comments about the bio's...just this morning's paper in fact. All these doctors in this group from Chicago...pooh poohing the bio's...ah...you just need good diet and exercice...sunshine...This one doc was arrogant enough to make the comment that "Gee...just because people are feeling better on these is not evidence they work. That is anecdotal...not scientific." ....GRRRRRR. I have worked out since 1982 on a very regular basis.  I have eaten healhfully since age 11 (I was a heavy kid and hated it..so, I started to learn how to eat well)...and yet...

I suppose unless someone could borrow my body for awhile, they would not really understand just how helpful my bio routine is. I know my body. I know when I am not doing well and I know how to fix it...mostly! I know about bladder incontinence, brain fog, short term memory loss, unbelievable wt. gain while practically starving oneself and working out when not so depressed that you can actually get off the couch. I know how it feels to be so (W)itchy that I cannot even stand to be around myself. I know about hormonally induced anxiety and migrane (migraine) headaches and sensitivity to loud noise (actually a symptom of low testosterone!)...low motivation, no passion and not having that feeling of feeling "womanly."

I will stop. I do hope people bear with me and I am concerned about being criticized for my long posts. Ok...the bio's don't help with being overly sensitive at times :) I just believe that I need to do something with my story. I had to put up with all of the fall-out from a surgical menopause ...I believe I have a duty to share my story so that other women don't have to suffer. I hope that does not sound arrogant. I just try to find the reasons "WHY" to things and this one seems to fit me. I have had strangers call me asking about this stuff...friend of a friend type thing. Oh, I did say I would stop. Bye for now...off to wash a dog and start some dictation for my work so I can be caught up Monday morning. Take Care, Mary

[Mary 53]

Hi again...just remembered that you had asked me about checking levels for hormones. Honestly, I have only been checked once...well, twice if you count the follow up. And, the first time I had the levels checked was in September just last fall. Follow up was three months after that.

Strange as it may sound, a lot of people/doctors/compounding pharmacist advisors go by symptoms. I don't have any stats to back that up, but for years that is what I did. Although it was interesting to check my levels. I did blood tests but my doctor was about to change to saliva tests and my pharmacist prefers saliva tests.

Take care, Mary

[AnotherKatie]

Hi there, Mary my friend, NEVER apologize for posting, I love to read what you have to say and I find it so helpful. I tried to find some over the counter type of products at the mall today but lousy selection. Quite confusing as to ingredients, and yes almost all that wild yam hype. They all say on them "Do not take if you are taking Estrogen".  Good grief. Canadian drugs are so boring! I still felt pretty blechhh (that darn sort of low grade headache, I think I have had it since the surgery) and standing looking at the products (my eyes swirling around) reminded me of Chinatown apothocaries! My husband is going to phone the office of the doctor who does the bio-identicals for me tomorrow and see if I can in a bit sooner, I can't face that receptionist again. I searched on line but...to be honest, felt overwhelmed. I think I did find the FemGest (there is one by that name that is a bust enhancer, guess I could try that too) but geezzz by the time we pay the exchange and S & H I felt a little unsure, as I don't really know enough about what I am doing. I am going to go ahead and order it if I can't get in sooner to the women's resource centre. Anyway I know I will get this sorted out sooner or later. I can't wait for my copy of Summers book to arrive!
Thank you again for all your kindness...I might feel better if it would quit snowing here in Alberta too!
Love, Katie

[Mary 53]

Hi Katie, Thanks for your kind words. I got to thinking about my comment later on and I thought...geez...sounded a bit insecure of me, oh well, we are allowed a bit of insecurity now and then, right? And, I work in mental health! I talk to kids constantly about giving positive messages to themselves!!!

I do get what you mean when you say that you found the process of checking for the progesterone overwhelming. I recall a friend shopping for it years ago, and I just stood back and waited for her. I am glad I cautioned you to watch out for products containing ONLY wild yam and no natural progesterone.

Emerita is the company that puts out Progest. Gee, I just googled Progest and all of these websites popped up. Then I googled Femgest, too and got a whole ton of stuff. Surprised at price differences. Sounds like you found some.

I love Suzanne Somers book, as I have told you. If she does not give ideas on how to use the cream, be sure to check out Northrup's book, okay? She gets very specific. There will be instructions with the product, too, of course.

Good luck...hope you can get in sooner to see the doctor.

Oh, and, little did I know that when we talked a while back that my encouraging words would carry you through a nice night yesterday! Cool! My husband was at Hockey games in Grand Forks, North Dakota. Got back today.

I just wrote to my compounding pharmacist and told him he is a genius. I have known him for six years...but, as you know, I have gone through a rocky time hormonally recently, and he has saved me. I have felt so fantastic this whole weekend (on my new dosages of hormones for just over a week) that I am afraid that I am feeling TOO well, if there is such a thing! I won't complain. Goodnight my friend, Mary

[AnotherKatie]

OK, it's confirmed, NOTHING over the counter here in Canada is any good! No effective hormones are sold here without a prescription. The formulations that you can get are too weak to do anything.
Hmmm.. I think I feel some cross border shopping coming on.....
I am going to try the on-line method. Thanks for the Emerita tip, that was the one I figured.
I am so glad to hear you are feeling great! Makes me feel...hope!
Love, Katie

[Mary 53]

Hey Katie, I found an awesome website. I was doing a google to see if Natural progesterone was sold in Canada (over the counter), because I am curious about the products you did find. When you stated that they were too weak...are you saying that you did find some product with Natural PRO. in it? Or was it just a wild yam cream? Even the weak stuff might be better than nothing until you can get the better stuff.

Anyway, check out this site.. I don't want to leave a link here, because I cannot recall, but I think that doing so is discouraged, so, I will "talk it out" with you. You have to write the word progect and then the word aware and it is a dot org. Now...important part, put a hyphen between progect and aware. Then when you get to the home page, go to the left and find "managing menopause" and click on Alternatives to HRT. Then when you get there, go to the right and click FAQ (I know you know this, but that is for Frequently Asked Questions, right?) anyway...FAQ Progesterone. Click it and be prepared to be amazed and shocked. No, seriously. It is great. Find the last paragraph way down to read about how it was very common to do studies on Natural PRO. back in the 60's and 70's and that the product was quite mainstream. But, then a lot of grant money dried up and since you cannot patent a "natural, or bioidentical" product, the money dried up and just all of the synthetics popped up (messing up ours lives :(      

This information was given when the question was asked as to why a lot of doctors don't recommend, or know too much about, Bio-progesterone.

Unfortunately, I have not gone past this site to check on regulations in Canada. The site popped up on my google because it said that this website had a link to the question about progesterone in Canada..but, I have not read further.

I could spend all my extra time on this site...actually, oh, well, actually, I do! You all are the best. I must go workout. Still feeling great. Cannot believe it....crossing my fingers I am over all hurdles. Now lets get you over yours...and best to you and all my cysters! Mary

[Mary 53]

OKAY...One more thing. I do have a bug in my bonnet on this...determined to get to the bottom of finding progesterone for my Canadian Cysters!

Best I can do is this. But, I think you will find an answer you can live with regarding ordering it. I tried to get the exact website address, but when I put it in my browser, it didn't come up. Luckily, I put it in fav. places...but to get to the site, do this. Google these words...    Canadians order otc progesterone    ...and then go to page 2 and then go to the very last link at the bottom of the page. It will say... Natural Progesterone(help!)(Archive)PCOS message board.

There might be a better way to find this site or to find the info, but, hey...I was elated to find it at all.

Hope this helps. Now off to my workout. Take care...Mary

[AnotherKatie]

Yaaaah! I got my Summers book waiting to pick up! Thought I'd just check first on my fav-o-rite thread, and BINGO! MY HERO!!
OK...the creams I found here had NO natural pro in them. All the things here are only vitamins, minerals, evening primrose, black cohosh, **** quai, wild yam, that kind of thing.
I do notice that posters seem to get away with putting on actual web sites here but I am able to deduct what you are saying no problem!!! I am going to order some this evening, everyone I have asked said they don't think it is illegal or anything to bring it up here. So WHEW I can't wait.  You know what else? I ripped off the Estroderm patch yesterday, it was itching, and, I finally do NOT have a headache. Within about 4 hours...am I nuts, or do you think the estrogen could have given me that dull headache feeling all this time? Actually, I think I feel better today overall. I would like to not have to use them at all and just use the bio-idents if I can.
Have a great work out, I am jealous...will chat again soon...Thank you again so much! Now, where's my Visa...?
Cheers, Katie

[Mary 53]

OH MY GOSH. MY mouth literally hung open when I read your post. Ok, is there someone out there who does not want you to feel normal again?!! I mean, really!

I saw the info on the cream/wax you named on your other posts   (I've goofed up the repeat button, too:) I will double check tomorrow on the name. I have tried everything under the sun. I will keep trying everything, though, as it is a horrible condtion (and, well, you know, we have not BEEN THROUGH ENOUGH ALREADY!) But, my wonderful steroid cream from my doctor is MARVELOUS. I put it on and usually get major relief in two minutes (unless the cuts are right on the tips which is when typing gets tricky, and that is why I was shocked tonight that I could type). Both my old skin doctor and now my allergy doc have written scripts for me. Even the doc I have seen for 20 years like when I have a bad cold, etc, wrote a prescription for me after my skin doc retired and I had not asked my allergy doc about it yet. MY POINT BEING...geez....it's not Your fault that my fingers are bad..it is ME AND MY LONG POSTS FAULT!!!....is that the docs have no problem with me using it. I have it with me all winter long. It is called Desoximetasone Cream USP, 0.25%. We are all going to be in the best health state possible from this site, wouldn't you say? Goodnight. Mary

[Mary 53]

Hey Katie, I loved the "YOMARY 53"..."YO" back at you.

You will feel so much better once you get balanced. Estrogen is a wonderful thing...but not so wonderful all by itself! I had such horrid headaches before my surgery...all signs led to estrogen dominance. But, I will say that I would scream and cry if they took my estrogen away from me now, but I would not have it without my progesterone.

I was nervous when my pharmacist sent my latest meds which included a lower dose of estrogen-the bi-est (and no more patch), and a balancing amount of progesterone. I had breakthrough symptoms last night with horrible leg cramps in the middle of the night (I'd been warned of breakthrough symptoms) but, overall, I have not felt this well in years. It almost makes me giddy...well, not today, though due to the messed up sleep...but, onward I march!

I am going to be absolutely thrilled when I read a post from you in the near future that tells us how wonderful you are feeling! Enjoy Suzanne's book. It has been awhile since I picked it up...think I will grab it tonight. I used to read romance novels and non-fiction before falling asleep, now it is research books!!! Oh Well!

Wishing you the best, Mary

[AnotherKatie]

I went to pick up my book tonight, but somebody got shot at the mall so the library was closed. I could make a joke about "Someone's hormones needed some tweaking"...but I won't.
I will report in with an update later....
Rest your paws!
Love Katie
PS they lived by the way

[AnotherKatie]

Oh my, I noticed it went **** on that word before quai that goes with "ding, ****"   Good grief.

[AnotherKatie]

I know, you would not BELIEVE how disappointed I was that someone got shot!
Glaxal base is also called Dermabase here. It is just the base cream that pharmacists use, and is very soothing as it is very pure...you can slap it on all you like.. It holds in moisture very well.  B vewy vewy careful about that cortisone cream, as I am sure you know. It can have a rebound effect if you over use it, causing the skin to become more fragile and thin.
Remember, 50 is the new 40! Love, Katie

[Mary 53]

Hi Katie, Thanks for the information. I think my sister has used something like this. I will ask her. And, I had forgotten about the potential for making things too fragile and thin if the steroid cream is overused. I had a problem on my nose, of all places, a few years ago and I had to use a mild steroid cream on the tip of my nostril and thought that I noticed the skin thinning one day. I freaked. On my own, came up with the idea of using something like vaseline on the nose every night and it has keep the problem away. Wish I could use that magic on my fingertips!

Take care and I hope the progesterone cream arrives soon. Mary