Antioxidents & cancer risk

[Helmar]

Found this article in one of our national newspapers. Interesting, and raises questions on what/what not to ingest.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23136787-24331,00.html

Like most things in life, it's a personal choice. People follow all types of diets, and eat what they feel is doing them good. The only antioxidents I take apart from fresh fruit and veggies are dark chocolate and red wine. *laugh*.... I hope everyone is feeling well, and those numbers are coming down. :-)  Hugs...Helen...

[Helmar]

Hi Cath... Well as far as I'm concerned this Forum is for open discussion in order to pass on info, and offer support to each other, so if you consider your comments hi-jacking my thread, then that's o.k.. We are all entitled to our opinions re diet and other issues and I have mine, as everyone else has theirs. We may not always agree, but that's the idea of open discussion... to be able to air those opinions, without anyone feeling put out about someone else's views. I will continue to call it as I see it too, and I know that there will be others who won't agree, but that's o.k. We're all adults here, so there shouldn't be any problems... I wouldn't think.
Regarding meat and dairy... well in my view everything in moderation isn't going to change much, so I intend to enjoy what I have, when I have it, while I'm well enough to be able to do that. I won't be laying on my death bed wishing for that big icecream I could have had, but denied myself because of some silly idea that it would have the cancer rushing around again. My Oncol. recommended that I eat red meat 2-3 times each week to keep up my red cells. ... and yes I am still enjoying my glass of red wine with dinner while off the chemo. :-)
I hope you are doing well too Cath.   hugs...Helen..

[rootietootie]

I wasn't attacking you or anyone else.  I am telling it as I see it, and I do see it quite often. Sorry if you don't like that.  I wish there was an easy answer, but unfortunately there isn't.  Vegans get sick like everyone else, sometimes even more so.  Sorry about that.  

[CFK]

Helen - I didn't mean to 'hijack' your thread but I felt I had to say something in defence of vegetarianism. I agree with a lot of what you say though (apart from the meat & dairy!) Hope you are well and still enjoying the wine.

Alan - nice to see you posting again. As always you put forward the facts in an interesting, articulate manner. Cath.

[alanpvegas]

Well, it's a controversial subject (sorry Helen, looks like your thread got off toipic) for many because (just like the pharm companies) the meat industry is so huge.  There have been many doctors out there who have spoke out against meat (including Dr. Spock who, in his last book, said children should not eat meat or even milk).  While it is true that we can eat *some* meat (in other words infrequently) our body really can't digest it correctly and milk is just the worst (we are the only animal that continues to drink milk after being a baby...and the milk of a huge animal with multiple stomachs no less!).  The healthiest children are vegetarian (actually vegan) children...they don't have asthma, juvenile diabetes, or any other problems.  Their diets are very well balanced...you do not need 'meat' to be balanced.  "This isn't your father's vegetarian diet" :)

Does this mean nobody will get cancer?  Of course not...but the risk is lowered.  For example we know that you can get lung cancer and not smoke a pack of cigarettes in your entire life.  I totally agree with the pesticide(s) statement...we live in a dirty world and nothing will ever protect us fully.  The fact is, *everything* on this planet will kill us (food)...but some promote the process faster than others.  Some can smoke cigars every day and eat the fattiest foods (my grandfather for example) and live until their 90's...others never drank or smoke (like my mom) and got cancer.  There are lots of variables.

I'll quote the following paragrahs (they are not my own).  One interesting point is about phytoestrogens...you'll only find them in plants.  Further, the best candidates for avoiding cancers are children who start off early so it will be some time before we can examine how those children fair under the following decades in regards to cancer.  

One study compared cancer rates of vegetarians and meat-eaters in 34,000 Americans. The results showed that those who avoided meat, fish, and poultry had dramatically lower rates of prostate, ovarian, and colon cancer compared to meat-eaters.

An 11-year-long German study involving more than 800 vegetarian men found their cancer rates were less than half those of the general public. The lowest cancer rates were found in those who had avoided meat for 20 years or more. Studies in Japan and Sweden also have shown lower risk among vegetarians. It seems that with every bite of meat, we increase our risk of cancer. Luckily, we can eliminate animal products from our diets and replace them with vegetable proteins that can protect our health instead of harm it.

Dr. T. Colin Campbell, arguably the foremost epidemiological researcher alive today, argues that animal proteins are the prime carcinogen in meat and dairy products. Says Dr. Campbell, "[H]uman studies also support this carcinogenic effect of animal protein, even at usual levels of consumption. No chemical carcinogen is nearly so important in causing human cancer as animal protein."

But fat is a culprit, too: Higher-fat diets raise estrogen levels, whereas plant-based diets keep it at a safe level, which doesn't promote the growth of cancer cells. Luckily, fiber-a nutrient plentiful in vegetarian diets-helps our bodies eliminate excess estrogen, thus cutting cancer risk.

[CFK]

I really object to your statement about vegetarians-I am tired of this myth that vegetarians and vegans are unhealthy. There are people who don't eat balanced diets - vegetarians and meat eaters alike but I have many vegetarian and vegan friends who take great care over their diets and would be offended by your sweeping statements. I don't eat meat but I do eat fish as part of a balanced diet so I don't know what label would be attached to me. There are more non - meat eaters than meat eaters in the world so it is about time to dispel this myth that it is an unhealthy option.

[Helmar]

Hi Shannon... Good post...even my Oncol. has told me to eat red meat 2-3 times each week, plus some dairy and sugar. Everything in moderation he says, and so far I've been o.k..I think it's a good idea to wash the veggies well too. I hope you are fine..hugs..Helen..

Hi Alan.. Good to see you posting again too. I hope things have settled down for you, and you are fine too...hugs...Helen...

[Jan214]

Good to see you Alan.  I do hope you are doing well and reclaiming your life a little.  You know that's what your mom would have wanted.  

There is a big difference in meats and people that eat a lot hamburger and fatty meats, just have more problems than other people.  Vegetarians, just don't eat a balanced diet.  A coroner I knew used to tell me HORRIBLE stories about cutting open people who had 10 lbs of undigested meat in them.  YUCK!!  I eat meat, but I try to eat lean meats, free range chickens, seafood, etc.  That is not to say I couldn't kill myself on portugese sausage, (YUM) but you have to eat sensibly and indulge occasionally.  

I know I am looking forward to a couple of more weeks when I can set some lettuce out in a cold frame and the mints will start coming up.  YEAH!!!!  Fresh produce time is just around the corner.  I am going to get out some peaches and grapes I froze last summer and celebrate the smell of spring.  Oh, it is 71 today!!!  Felt like **** all day until about 5:30, but there will be more nice days ahead.  

Shannon, I don't know if you have met Alan or not, but he has been on the forum for a very long time and like Marty, he is one of our best researchers.  If there is ANYTHING you want to know about taking care of yourself with cancer, he will probably know it.

Well, I think I will go sit on the front porch and watch the sun go down. Y'all have a nice nite.

[rootietootie]

A lot of that Vegetarian stuff is all hype.  I have patients who are vegetarians all the time who are literaly eaten up with cancer and other diseases.  As a nurse and in the opinion of most of the nurses I work with, when a vegetarian comes in sick, they are usually the the ones who seem the weakest and seem to have the most problems.  I don't know why that is, but it rings true all too often, enough to make me never want to become a vegetarian.  Yes, I agree meat is dangerous sometimes, beef has hormones, and anitbiotics, chicken can carry disease, but I remember not too long ago when spinich was full of e-coli.   Even fresh veges now a days are full of pesticides, which makes me think that is a big reason so many vegetarians get cancer too.  I think the best we can do is not get too crazy about anything.  Eat a good variety of everything in moderation.  Clean your produce well, buy  your beef antibiotic and hormone free, try to go as natural as you can on your budget.  (if you havn't noticed, most of these products unfortunatley, are much more costly)  As Hulk Hogan says, (I have never heard anyone else to quote who says it better)  Try to eat right, exercise, take your vitamins, and say a prayer.   We don't exactly why some people get cancer and some don't.  To simply blame it on one thing is just not right.  Just my opinion.  Shannon

[SimplyStar]

The use of IV Vit C will not happen until one of the many trials going on with it are finally allowed to verify the results.  The AMA and the FDA do not want an inexpensive drug out there for an alternative to chemo drugs. It all goes back a long ways too, so many researchers have been "pushed" into cormers because of their findings on Vit C.   The Pharmacutical companies will take Vit C and  duplicate it into a $6,000 drug. Which of course will get FDA approval then.  In doing my research I have found that all most all chemo drug are simply that, bio indenticals. Leslee takes 2500mg of C daily, divided doses. sure it goes to the GI tract, but some of it manages to get to the system.  Is that one of the reasons she has felt "so good' during her chemo days? Does the Ginger, Sage, COQ10, Green tea, Tumeric, Broccoli, Fish Oil, Cranberry Capsules hurt her?  I don't think so.  As you all say, to each his own, when you have cancer, you do tend to grab at straws, but straws woven into a tough rope might just lift you up out of the mire.  I happen to believe the answers to cancer is in the nature of the world.  Marty  so glad to see you Alan, hope all is well with you.

[alanpvegas]

Yeah this is only for preventing cancer...not for cancer patients.  It's not bad to take antioxidants during cancer treatment with the exception of radiation therapy.  

If more people went vegetarian or vegan cancer would come down A LOT (most cancers are aggrevated by meat usage), but that's not going to happen.