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Questions about leaky gut
At this point our best guess is that PATM is a result of leaky gut. I have a couple of questions.
1. There are millions of people that consume hard drugs and alcohol who surely have a more permeable gut than most of us. I've never smoked and only drink once or twice a year, how come we exhibit symptoms but the millions of others with leaky gut don't.
2. If we have such a profound accumulation of toxins in our bodies, wouldn't we feel incredibly sick on a daily basis. For the most part, I feel perfectly fine accept for my digestion. Don't most people with compromised livers end up in the hospital?
I'm not trying to discredit anything because I'm pretty sure our gut plays a huge role in PATM.
1. There are millions of people that consume hard drugs and alcohol who surely have a more permeable gut than most of us. I've never smoked and only drink once or twice a year, how come we exhibit symptoms but the millions of others with leaky gut don't.
2. If we have such a profound accumulation of toxins in our bodies, wouldn't we feel incredibly sick on a daily basis. For the most part, I feel perfectly fine accept for my digestion. Don't most people with compromised livers end up in the hospital?
I'm not trying to discredit anything because I'm pretty sure our gut plays a huge role in PATM.
“At this point our best guess is that PATM is a result of leaky gut.”
No that’s only part of it. Microbiota imbalance is the other. If it didn’t then FMT for PATM2 wouldn’t have worked at all. It means there are strains of pathogen producing toxins that aren’t normal.
Not everyone responds to toxins the same. When hayfever patients react to pollen their immunity kicks in and inflame linings of the lungs, sinus and the person gets sick, while most of us without the hayfever are fine with the pollen in our lungs. The immunity system of hayfever patients regard these pollens as toxic.
There are microbes that can actually suppress our immunity not to respond at all and the most we can feel is a little drowsiness, sleepy, tired or hot. It all depends on the microbes’ ability to curb our immunity. Btw, we know it’s a toxin because others are allergic to it just like toxins. When it comes to sweating, only toxins are release through sweating. Metronidazole and other antibiotics has been observed to remove PATM from the gut completely or partial. This isolates PATM as toxins directly produced by microbes. If I were to take a wild guess, the toxins are antigens because it’s well documented how some bacteria can release other compounds to suppress the body from sensing the toxins.
Comprised liver always end in the hospital? No. There are lots of people with absent or dysfunctional liver enzymes and no one knows. It’s only when that liver enzyme is involved in a critical life or death metabolic process or smelly like TMAU1 that it comes to the attention of the medical community. There is some probability that our problem is because of a failed liver enzyme. At the moment we don’t know that far.
MeBO preliminary report cannot really differentiate PATM from TMAU2. According to many experts, TMAU2 is caused by gut microbes and because of their close relationship it’s also suggesting PATM is caused by gut microbes imbalance.
9 Comments
Do you think PATM is a serious detriment to our heath then? I've been living with this for years, but I try to convince myself that it's not too concerning. Thanks for you time and research.
In terms of physical health. Obviously PATM is awful psychologically.
@da16424
Like all diseases PATM comes at different levels. If it’s mild and doesn’t send people away I don’t think you should be worrying that much. TMAU1 is also known for a fact to be at different levels too. Those with the heterozygote gene either show no sign or a mild version which allows them to function in society OK.
When you say its psychologically, it flies in the face of the latest MeBO clinical research preliminary results. You are actually claiming that you’re smarter than they are but at the same time you’re psychological ill. Which one is it? There’s an illogical argument there.
Like all diseases PATM comes at different levels. If it’s mild and doesn’t send people away I don’t think you should be worrying that much. TMAU1 is also known for a fact to be at different levels too. Those with the heterozygote gene either show no sign or a mild version which allows them to function in society OK.
When you say its psychologically, it flies in the face of the latest MeBO clinical research preliminary results. You are actually claiming that you’re smarter than they are but at the same time you’re psychological ill. Which one is it? There’s an illogical argument there.
I'm just saying that PATM is terrible for mental health. It's amazing how much productivity you can lose by worrying about PATM, especially in places like the library. So yeah, I'm not saying I'm "smarter" than the professionals. Come on dude lol.
@da16424
Yes, I agree, all diseases are terrible to the mental health because it’s stressful. As I’ve said before if your PATM is mild enough for you to survive socially then yes worrying about is detrimental. But probably 99% of patmers here are probably at the worst end of the spectrum. For example, my condition is like this. I can’t do anything because everybody avoids me. My friends tell me directly that they get sick sitting beside me and I tell them directly to move when they can’t take it anymore. I’m not worried so much about their coughing and sneezing, I’m worried more about not completing my work task because nobody wants to come near me. That’s what’s bothering most PATM with the extreme form.
If I follow strictly the routines of diet, probiotics etc. then PATM disappears or so mild that I can’t tell. The problem with this is most of us starve and crave.
Yes, I agree, all diseases are terrible to the mental health because it’s stressful. As I’ve said before if your PATM is mild enough for you to survive socially then yes worrying about is detrimental. But probably 99% of patmers here are probably at the worst end of the spectrum. For example, my condition is like this. I can’t do anything because everybody avoids me. My friends tell me directly that they get sick sitting beside me and I tell them directly to move when they can’t take it anymore. I’m not worried so much about their coughing and sneezing, I’m worried more about not completing my work task because nobody wants to come near me. That’s what’s bothering most PATM with the extreme form.
If I follow strictly the routines of diet, probiotics etc. then PATM disappears or so mild that I can’t tell. The problem with this is most of us starve and crave.
@da16424
I agree with you, if your condition is mild, try to not worry too much and continue with your life because research will still continue. By the time you finish your degree or whatever, a group of scientists might have found something that would help you.
I agree with you, if your condition is mild, try to not worry too much and continue with your life because research will still continue. By the time you finish your degree or whatever, a group of scientists might have found something that would help you.
It has gotten mild. What concerns me is that straying from diet one time brings it back much worse. Unfortunately I don't think what I'm doing is "healing" anything but just suppressing the symptoms. That's why I really hope Restore works.
@ da16424
Here’s another thing that people aren’t aware of. I’ve read comments here that seem to suggest DNA testing reveals diseases…lol. No it doesn’t. I ought to know because I’ve done this a lot in the past.
Associating a particular disease and genes is different from DNA profiling. Building the association is usually harder. What scientists do is they look for suspected proteins involved with a disease because everything in the body has to be associated with a protein. Then they trace those proteins backwards to amino-acids and to which part of the chromosome the transcription took place. The job is precisely the reverse of the cellular transcription-translation process. It’s really hard. But once that is found, the screening for DNA diseases can always look for the presence of those defective genes (alleles). People at TMAU clinics only look for the FMO3 loci and nothing else.
For instance, TMAU1, doctors realize there is an accumulation of TMA in the blood so they look up the faulty enzyme responsible for cleaning the TMA. It’s the FMO3 enzyme. It’s just a protein. So they look up which mRNA is producing these proteins and then which part of the DNA is causing the transcription of these particular mRNA. Once that association is found, they are given to screening geneticists to look it up always for the loci when checking for TMAU1. It’s mostly automated so sometimes it can take minutes to hours for a whole lot of samples from different people.
23andMe will only look for 90 traits and nothing else. How many loci is associated with that? We can tell but they do. It’s fair to say it’s about more or less than 90. This is because some traits can be caused by 1 or more genes.
Here’s another thing that people aren’t aware of. I’ve read comments here that seem to suggest DNA testing reveals diseases…lol. No it doesn’t. I ought to know because I’ve done this a lot in the past.
Associating a particular disease and genes is different from DNA profiling. Building the association is usually harder. What scientists do is they look for suspected proteins involved with a disease because everything in the body has to be associated with a protein. Then they trace those proteins backwards to amino-acids and to which part of the chromosome the transcription took place. The job is precisely the reverse of the cellular transcription-translation process. It’s really hard. But once that is found, the screening for DNA diseases can always look for the presence of those defective genes (alleles). People at TMAU clinics only look for the FMO3 loci and nothing else.
For instance, TMAU1, doctors realize there is an accumulation of TMA in the blood so they look up the faulty enzyme responsible for cleaning the TMA. It’s the FMO3 enzyme. It’s just a protein. So they look up which mRNA is producing these proteins and then which part of the DNA is causing the transcription of these particular mRNA. Once that association is found, they are given to screening geneticists to look it up always for the loci when checking for TMAU1. It’s mostly automated so sometimes it can take minutes to hours for a whole lot of samples from different people.
23andMe will only look for 90 traits and nothing else. How many loci is associated with that? We can tell but they do. It’s fair to say it’s about more or less than 90. This is because some traits can be caused by 1 or more genes.
@ da16424
You are right, we aren’t healing anything, that’s obvious. We are just suppressing. I think if there’s any possible healing, it will only come from FMT or a really strong antibiotic in the future. But I believe it is possible at least for now to find a product or combination of products to suppress PATM so much that we can eat normally and not send people away afterwards.
This is my 3rd bottle. This one is a 32 fl oz. I take almost 10 times the normal dosage.
It obvious we can’t heal it because the gut is build to heal itself quickly. So whatever is causing it to be leaky is always there. Unless that is removed, there’s no healing. Restore and many products are suppressors.
In my opinion, we need to remove those microbial strains that are responsible for releasing the toxins that eat away gut tight-junction. FMT is probably the only way to remove it. DIY FMT does nothing.
You are right, we aren’t healing anything, that’s obvious. We are just suppressing. I think if there’s any possible healing, it will only come from FMT or a really strong antibiotic in the future. But I believe it is possible at least for now to find a product or combination of products to suppress PATM so much that we can eat normally and not send people away afterwards.
This is my 3rd bottle. This one is a 32 fl oz. I take almost 10 times the normal dosage.
It obvious we can’t heal it because the gut is build to heal itself quickly. So whatever is causing it to be leaky is always there. Unless that is removed, there’s no healing. Restore and many products are suppressors.
In my opinion, we need to remove those microbial strains that are responsible for releasing the toxins that eat away gut tight-junction. FMT is probably the only way to remove it. DIY FMT does nothing.
Just spent 15 min looking at some literature regarding TMAU. It's certainly possible that PATM is the same genetic mutation of the FM03 gene but we don't have an odor. According to this article, many people with TMAU don't have a noticeable odor, but still lack the ability to detox their body. I'll keep looking when I have more time at TMAU and leaky gut.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23266626/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23266626/
5 Comments
The article is titled: "FMO3 allelic variants in Sicilian and Sardinian populations: trimethylaminuria and absence of fish-like body odor." looks like the link didn't work.
@da1642
That’s good information. The paper was done in 2012 so it’s relatively recent. You seem to get the hang of it and will be a good researcher one day. Ray was just talking about it before. In this paper it’s talking about 4 possible alleles they found for the FMO3 gene.
If I remember correctly some Members here have been tested for TMAU and came out negative. The trouble is, we don’t know if they were tested for TMA (smelly compound) or for the TMAU FMO3 mutated gene. In actually fact, most clinics just test for TMA because it’s cheaper and faster.
Ray said that doctors familiar with TMAU1 haven’t heard much from patients talking about coughing and sneezing but instead just the smell. I hope Ray can verify that.
That’s good information. The paper was done in 2012 so it’s relatively recent. You seem to get the hang of it and will be a good researcher one day. Ray was just talking about it before. In this paper it’s talking about 4 possible alleles they found for the FMO3 gene.
If I remember correctly some Members here have been tested for TMAU and came out negative. The trouble is, we don’t know if they were tested for TMA (smelly compound) or for the TMAU FMO3 mutated gene. In actually fact, most clinics just test for TMA because it’s cheaper and faster.
Ray said that doctors familiar with TMAU1 haven’t heard much from patients talking about coughing and sneezing but instead just the smell. I hope Ray can verify that.
@da1642
Oh there is one thing with this idea. If there’s a variant of FMO3 mutation where there’s no fishy smell, then it should always remain that way at all times.
All of us can remember the good life we’ve had in the past. There was absolutely no smell, cough, sneeze or anything of that sort. We were normal like everybody else. Then suddenly this thing starts creeping out of nowhere.
TMAU1 predicts that it shows more clearly at puberty but many here developed it at a younger age than puberty and some way off in their adult life.
Oh there is one thing with this idea. If there’s a variant of FMO3 mutation where there’s no fishy smell, then it should always remain that way at all times.
All of us can remember the good life we’ve had in the past. There was absolutely no smell, cough, sneeze or anything of that sort. We were normal like everybody else. Then suddenly this thing starts creeping out of nowhere.
TMAU1 predicts that it shows more clearly at puberty but many here developed it at a younger age than puberty and some way off in their adult life.
@da1642
Oh there is one thing with this idea. If there’s a variant of FMO3 mutation where there’s no fishy smell, then it should always remain that way at all times.
All of us can remember the good life we’ve had in the past. There was absolutely no smell, cough, sneeze or anything of that sort. We were normal like everybody else. Then suddenly this thing starts creeping out of nowhere.
TMAU1 predicts that it shows more clearly at puberty but many here developed it at a younger age than puberty and some way off in their adult life.
Oh there is one thing with this idea. If there’s a variant of FMO3 mutation where there’s no fishy smell, then it should always remain that way at all times.
All of us can remember the good life we’ve had in the past. There was absolutely no smell, cough, sneeze or anything of that sort. We were normal like everybody else. Then suddenly this thing starts creeping out of nowhere.
TMAU1 predicts that it shows more clearly at puberty but many here developed it at a younger age than puberty and some way off in their adult life.
@da1642
Ray just confirmed, TMAU1 variants don't express coughing & sneezing as PATM does. It's all about odors. You can read his reply on the thread just above this one.
Ray just confirmed, TMAU1 variants don't express coughing & sneezing as PATM does. It's all about odors. You can read his reply on the thread just above this one.
And if you guys are talking about FMT - look at Equilibrium by General Biotics. Seems to be the closest thing to FMT that one can buy in a store.
11 Comments
This looks promising judging by the amazon reviews
What makes this product different than a normal probiotic? Just curious.
115 strains vs 30-40 max in other probiotic products. People on amazon are recommending it or use when you take antibiotics and my whole thing started with antibiotics.
"1 Billion CFU from 115 strains, including 85 no other probiotic supplement offers."
Either all 115, or only those 85, have been isolated from FM of a healthy person with no GI issues - claimed by their CEO in one of his interviews.
The total gut microbial species is over 1000. There are just too many so researchers can count them all. They are really estimating. We simply cannot expect 30 strains to do the job of over 1000. There’s just no way. This is why many gastrointestinal disease is untreatable even though researchers suspect some strains are actually causing it or contributing but cannot narrow it down.
But it’s good to have a list of these products. @LaserShark8, thanks for letting us know this product.
But it’s good to have a list of these products. @LaserShark8, thanks for letting us know this product.
The total gut microbial species is over 1000. There are just too many so researchers CANNOT count them all. They are really estimating. We simply cannot expect 30 strains to do the job of over 1000. There’s just no way. This is why many gastrointestinal disease is untreatable even though researchers suspect some strains are actually causing it or contributing but cannot narrow it down.
But it’s good to have a list of these products. @LaserShark8, thanks for letting us know about this product.
But it’s good to have a list of these products. @LaserShark8, thanks for letting us know about this product.
Here’s something to be aware of; many gut strains are perishable in room temperature without the natural environment it was meant to live in (gut). This is why many probiotic companies keep them in ice pack when transporting. They were meant to be kept in the refrigerator. The more strains in a pill the more likely many will die off since there are fewer per each strains. If you aren’t getting it in an ice pack, then forget about it. There are a few strains that can be stabilized to overcome room temperature but it’s best to keep them cool at all times. Most strains die in heat exposure while in transportation… you’ll know it when it doesn’t do anything.
I’m actually looking at “Equilibrium” on amazon and to be honest I can almost smell fake&hoax when I see it. Here’s why. Researchers have found that roughly about 20% of probiotic products out there don’t have any probiotic at all. Consumers don’t really know so they don’t really care. Once probiotic strains are taken from their natural environment (gut), they start dying and by the time they get to the consumer hardly is left if or none. Some strains will never make it without being refrigerated or freeze-dried and kept that way until consumed. Freeze-dried is ok in room temperature but once put in a pill, which is not sealed air tight, the moisture starts the quick degradation process. A few strains are resistant to many environmental factors outside of the gut but most don’t. It’s almost comparable to us being taken to outerspace without a spacesuit… we will die as we aren’t meant to live there.
My rough guess would be 95% of the probiotic strains in “Equilibrium” will die before a consumer puts it in his mouth. Only the resistant strains will remain. Just imagine the time it sits on the shelf, without moisture protection or refrigeration. They don’t provide on ice pack because they claim it’s been freeze-dried but instead of sealed packs, they use pills. All the legitimate probiotic companies with huge number of strains will either send it raw on ice-packs or freeze dry it in airtight packs.
For instance, in iherb you can get “Garden of Life, RAW Probiotics, Men, 90 Veggie Caps” with 30 strains in an ice pack unless you’re ordering from overseas OR “Doctor's Best, Fast Melt Immune Probiotic 3 Billion with Bifodan, 30 Stick Packs” with 30 strains stabilized in seal tight packs. I was expecting “Equilibrium” to do the same given its highly perishable content.
This is why we should be careful when buying probiotics because many of us are being robbed of our money.
My rough guess would be 95% of the probiotic strains in “Equilibrium” will die before a consumer puts it in his mouth. Only the resistant strains will remain. Just imagine the time it sits on the shelf, without moisture protection or refrigeration. They don’t provide on ice pack because they claim it’s been freeze-dried but instead of sealed packs, they use pills. All the legitimate probiotic companies with huge number of strains will either send it raw on ice-packs or freeze dry it in airtight packs.
For instance, in iherb you can get “Garden of Life, RAW Probiotics, Men, 90 Veggie Caps” with 30 strains in an ice pack unless you’re ordering from overseas OR “Doctor's Best, Fast Melt Immune Probiotic 3 Billion with Bifodan, 30 Stick Packs” with 30 strains stabilized in seal tight packs. I was expecting “Equilibrium” to do the same given its highly perishable content.
This is why we should be careful when buying probiotics because many of us are being robbed of our money.
I already ordered a monthly supply (30 pills) and should be getting it today. I'll keep you guys posted.
The company states that you don't need to keep the bottle cold, So we'll see. Either way, I would never discourage someone from trying something new just based on a hunch, as long as it's reasonable for them financially.
The more resources we put into this, the more things we try, the quicker we'll resolve this. Relying on the traditional medical community seems like a joke to me at this point. They're not just going to tackle difficult problems unless there is potential for big profits from it.
The company states that you don't need to keep the bottle cold, So we'll see. Either way, I would never discourage someone from trying something new just based on a hunch, as long as it's reasonable for them financially.
The more resources we put into this, the more things we try, the quicker we'll resolve this. Relying on the traditional medical community seems like a joke to me at this point. They're not just going to tackle difficult problems unless there is potential for big profits from it.
@TAPAKAH
Probiotic gut strains do die once taken from their natural environment. That’s not a hunch. It’s something that every biologist will observe in college and throughout their career. It’s really a no-brainer for us who’s been there. I remember very well in college when many of us complaint to our professors during lab because our E.Coli samples had nothing. They were all dead…lol… but they were taken out right from the freezer. Here’s one interesting bit, when probiotic companies state the numbers per strain, they are estimating how much they expect to live by the time the consumer takes it. For instance, if they say 10 billion per strain, they’ve originally put in around 20-15 billion and expect a quarter to a half will die out.
What researchers have found out is that probiotics die quicker before being consumed which resulted in some probiotic capsules having nothing when inspected. If you browse to nutrition sites and see for yourself the comments of people on many probiotics products they’d often bring up things like, “it didn’t culture in milk” or “they felt nothing at all” or “didn’t really do anything.” It’s because some or all of the strains died out before they were consumed. This is a common experience around the world by probiotic consumers. If you’ve never felt the difference before it’s because you haven’t tried too many. Have two probiotic bottles from the same company, freeze the other and leave the other out and see the obvious difference for yourself.
If you really want your money’s worth, try raw probiotics. Many companies provide them. Raw implies it comes straight from the company in an icepack. That’s the only way to make sure all the strains are alive and in great numbers. If General Biotics were a big company, they would have had both raw and freeze-dried available, especially for product that contains so many strains.
Believe it or not, FDA requires FMT pills (the ultimate probiotic pill with possibly thousands of strains) to be prepared this way too because without this, >1000 strains will not survive and won’t heal C.Diff. Patients will know when strains die for sure…lol. If you look it up some of the interview of doctors’ opinion comparing FMT pills with traditional FMT, doctors admit strains die once taken out from their natural and put in pills. They weren’t meant to be taken out from the gut.
“The company states that you don't need to keep the bottle cold”
They freeze-dry it and then put it in a pill. This process means they are frozen and then dehydrated to an extremely dry level. Some strains will die in the process and some will perish once a little moisture gets through between the capsule. It’s impossible for all 115 strains to survive in a small pill really but some strains will make it through to you. Consumers have no way of knowing because if 4 strains survive, that’s good enough to show some effects to be felt. They wouldn’t know how 115 strains should feel.
“Relying on the traditional medical community seems like a joke to me at this point.”
Actually, discovering and culturing probiotics aren’t done by quacks. They were done by scientists. Companies hire pharmacists and biologists to culture these strains and/or prepare with other ingredients if needed as quacks know nothing about it. In many cases the people that sell them to us aren’t always scholars. Some of them are quacks or just businessmen but they do hire real scientists to do the work.
But I agree with you, more information for our community is good. When someone proposed a couple of years back about volunteering to MeBO, I don’t remember him getting many replies or support but now that experiment has paid off, so I encourage you to continue and let us know. I’m working on trying to get FMT pills. If I do get it, I’ll inform you guys. I’ve contact “openbiome” and they’ve told me about their strict mandate issued to them by FDA. They insist that FMT pills be given to C.diff patients only. I’ve seen one doctor and he’s not prepared to risk his career. I’ll try as many doctors I can. If I remember correctly, I think the lady at “openbiome” said there are exceptions… I think she meant trials for other diseases but I can’t be sure since I’ve had contacts with so many places regarding this.
Probiotic gut strains do die once taken from their natural environment. That’s not a hunch. It’s something that every biologist will observe in college and throughout their career. It’s really a no-brainer for us who’s been there. I remember very well in college when many of us complaint to our professors during lab because our E.Coli samples had nothing. They were all dead…lol… but they were taken out right from the freezer. Here’s one interesting bit, when probiotic companies state the numbers per strain, they are estimating how much they expect to live by the time the consumer takes it. For instance, if they say 10 billion per strain, they’ve originally put in around 20-15 billion and expect a quarter to a half will die out.
What researchers have found out is that probiotics die quicker before being consumed which resulted in some probiotic capsules having nothing when inspected. If you browse to nutrition sites and see for yourself the comments of people on many probiotics products they’d often bring up things like, “it didn’t culture in milk” or “they felt nothing at all” or “didn’t really do anything.” It’s because some or all of the strains died out before they were consumed. This is a common experience around the world by probiotic consumers. If you’ve never felt the difference before it’s because you haven’t tried too many. Have two probiotic bottles from the same company, freeze the other and leave the other out and see the obvious difference for yourself.
If you really want your money’s worth, try raw probiotics. Many companies provide them. Raw implies it comes straight from the company in an icepack. That’s the only way to make sure all the strains are alive and in great numbers. If General Biotics were a big company, they would have had both raw and freeze-dried available, especially for product that contains so many strains.
Believe it or not, FDA requires FMT pills (the ultimate probiotic pill with possibly thousands of strains) to be prepared this way too because without this, >1000 strains will not survive and won’t heal C.Diff. Patients will know when strains die for sure…lol. If you look it up some of the interview of doctors’ opinion comparing FMT pills with traditional FMT, doctors admit strains die once taken out from their natural and put in pills. They weren’t meant to be taken out from the gut.
“The company states that you don't need to keep the bottle cold”
They freeze-dry it and then put it in a pill. This process means they are frozen and then dehydrated to an extremely dry level. Some strains will die in the process and some will perish once a little moisture gets through between the capsule. It’s impossible for all 115 strains to survive in a small pill really but some strains will make it through to you. Consumers have no way of knowing because if 4 strains survive, that’s good enough to show some effects to be felt. They wouldn’t know how 115 strains should feel.
“Relying on the traditional medical community seems like a joke to me at this point.”
Actually, discovering and culturing probiotics aren’t done by quacks. They were done by scientists. Companies hire pharmacists and biologists to culture these strains and/or prepare with other ingredients if needed as quacks know nothing about it. In many cases the people that sell them to us aren’t always scholars. Some of them are quacks or just businessmen but they do hire real scientists to do the work.
But I agree with you, more information for our community is good. When someone proposed a couple of years back about volunteering to MeBO, I don’t remember him getting many replies or support but now that experiment has paid off, so I encourage you to continue and let us know. I’m working on trying to get FMT pills. If I do get it, I’ll inform you guys. I’ve contact “openbiome” and they’ve told me about their strict mandate issued to them by FDA. They insist that FMT pills be given to C.diff patients only. I’ve seen one doctor and he’s not prepared to risk his career. I’ll try as many doctors I can. If I remember correctly, I think the lady at “openbiome” said there are exceptions… I think she meant trials for other diseases but I can’t be sure since I’ve had contacts with so many places regarding this.
If it's a pathogen that's causing toxic build up in our bodies, how come these pathogens don't register in a blood, stool, saliva, culture test? Surely one of these tests would capture an abnormality! I've had extensive testing for pathogens in the past but just don't know the exact names right now.
Something should stick out like a sore thumb but it doesn't. I'm leaning towards it's in our intestines or possibly the liver not producing a particular enzyme but there again why doesn't the exams capture an abnormality?
. My PATM is reduced by about 75% when I take a dump. It cleans out my intestinal trait and I immediately start to get a headache and it doesn't go away until I consume food again.
I follow a strict diet and exercise like you wouldn't believe. Doing this has helped me live a some what normal life. I'm able to attend meetings at work and be at public places with minimal or no PATM reactions.
Something should stick out like a sore thumb but it doesn't. I'm leaning towards it's in our intestines or possibly the liver not producing a particular enzyme but there again why doesn't the exams capture an abnormality?
. My PATM is reduced by about 75% when I take a dump. It cleans out my intestinal trait and I immediately start to get a headache and it doesn't go away until I consume food again.
I follow a strict diet and exercise like you wouldn't believe. Doing this has helped me live a some what normal life. I'm able to attend meetings at work and be at public places with minimal or no PATM reactions.
7 Comments
Obviously this is not a common infection. Possibly doing Metagenomic Sequestering could provide some answers to this question. Maybe if a few people did it on their saliva and blood - it would show up. That's what some people I know have been thinking about doing.
Obviously this is not a common infection. Possibly doing Metagenomic Sequestering could provide some answers to this question. Maybe if a few people did it on their saliva and blood - it would show up. That's what some people I know have been thinking about doing.
@ray2502
Hi ray. I’ve tried explaining this several times and I will do it again. We know it’s a toxin because it behaves like a toxin. What is a toxin? I’ve explained this several times already so I believe we agree on this.
If you do sauna or exercise, you’ll notice that PATM the next morning is really mild. Sweat glands are made to excrete toxins in addition to what we already know. This is why it’s mild after sweating and take a shower.
The pathogens are just in your stool, nowhere else. There’s thousands of them. Which one doctors are going to look for? They don’t know which one to look for because we don’t know which strain is causing it.
The toxins are in the blood. People react to different toxins in a variety of ways. While we may be sleepy, drowsy and tired from it, other people’s innate immunity can jump into action. There are people in here who claim to be allergic to themselves sometimes. I myself if I eat too much sweet then I cough and sneeze constantly for a few hours.
How your body reacts to toxins pretty much relies on how much harm it can do to cells and tissue and the ability of the immunity to respond to it.
For instance, some people’s immunity reacts to pollen, peanut or other proteins while others don’t.
MeBO research has confirmed that we have leakygut. What do we know from research papers on leaky gut. Leak gut allows toxins, undigested food through. Toxins and undigested food are smaller so will always get through first.
Regarding test for toxins in the blood, there’s no test as a test for all toxins. It will only stick out as a sore thumb if you are actually testing for that particular compound. You only look for a specific compound one at time, there are exceptions, but overall this is how it is. Olympians are tested for possibility 500 PEDs…that’s basically 500 different test for each chemical on one sample of an athlete.
The problem here is that we don’t know specifically what toxin or toxins we are looking for. If researchers can’t know or name every species in the gut when there is only a few hundreds to thousand species, how on earth are they’re going to know every toxin that belong to each? Hundreds of gut microbial strains are unknown and have never been studied. This is why doctors just give C.diff the whole lot of over 1000 probiotics. They don’t which strain is killing or controlling the C.diff and it’s toxins but FMT sure works. Do you know that C.diff is actually doing nothing, it’s a variety of toxins from it that destroys the gut lining of the patient causing continues diarrhea and pain.
If you choose anything else other than toxins for the PATM reactions, it wouldn’t fit the data we’ve already collected. What do you think it is? Let me know.
Hi ray. I’ve tried explaining this several times and I will do it again. We know it’s a toxin because it behaves like a toxin. What is a toxin? I’ve explained this several times already so I believe we agree on this.
If you do sauna or exercise, you’ll notice that PATM the next morning is really mild. Sweat glands are made to excrete toxins in addition to what we already know. This is why it’s mild after sweating and take a shower.
The pathogens are just in your stool, nowhere else. There’s thousands of them. Which one doctors are going to look for? They don’t know which one to look for because we don’t know which strain is causing it.
The toxins are in the blood. People react to different toxins in a variety of ways. While we may be sleepy, drowsy and tired from it, other people’s innate immunity can jump into action. There are people in here who claim to be allergic to themselves sometimes. I myself if I eat too much sweet then I cough and sneeze constantly for a few hours.
How your body reacts to toxins pretty much relies on how much harm it can do to cells and tissue and the ability of the immunity to respond to it.
For instance, some people’s immunity reacts to pollen, peanut or other proteins while others don’t.
MeBO research has confirmed that we have leakygut. What do we know from research papers on leaky gut. Leak gut allows toxins, undigested food through. Toxins and undigested food are smaller so will always get through first.
Regarding test for toxins in the blood, there’s no test as a test for all toxins. It will only stick out as a sore thumb if you are actually testing for that particular compound. You only look for a specific compound one at time, there are exceptions, but overall this is how it is. Olympians are tested for possibility 500 PEDs…that’s basically 500 different test for each chemical on one sample of an athlete.
The problem here is that we don’t know specifically what toxin or toxins we are looking for. If researchers can’t know or name every species in the gut when there is only a few hundreds to thousand species, how on earth are they’re going to know every toxin that belong to each? Hundreds of gut microbial strains are unknown and have never been studied. This is why doctors just give C.diff the whole lot of over 1000 probiotics. They don’t which strain is killing or controlling the C.diff and it’s toxins but FMT sure works. Do you know that C.diff is actually doing nothing, it’s a variety of toxins from it that destroys the gut lining of the patient causing continues diarrhea and pain.
If you choose anything else other than toxins for the PATM reactions, it wouldn’t fit the data we’ve already collected. What do you think it is? Let me know.
@ray2502
Culture test is only for microbes, it’s not for toxins. Toxins are tested like any other compound. But you must know what you’re look for.
Culture test is only for microbes, it’s not for toxins. Toxins are tested like any other compound. But you must know what you’re look for.
@ray2502
Ray, you said in one of your replies that expert doctors on TMAU1 said patients never experienced coughing or sneezing right? Can you confirm that again? And if you have some further information can you let me know. Thanks.
Ray, you said in one of your replies that expert doctors on TMAU1 said patients never experienced coughing or sneezing right? Can you confirm that again? And if you have some further information can you let me know. Thanks.
dontgiveuphope,
Dr. Petri "Regarding your comments about "PATM" I have diagnosed and seen, in-person, more than 100 people with various cases of trimethylaminuria (TMAU); some of them were very severe cases but neither me or my staff have never reported or felt any of the symptoms (coughing, sneezing, eye irritation, etc) you describe.
I'm pretty sure that of all those patients, some had TMAU2. Some of them did not show mutated or damaged FM03 gene.
And yes I did confirm with Dr. Preti.
Dr. Petri "Regarding your comments about "PATM" I have diagnosed and seen, in-person, more than 100 people with various cases of trimethylaminuria (TMAU); some of them were very severe cases but neither me or my staff have never reported or felt any of the symptoms (coughing, sneezing, eye irritation, etc) you describe.
I'm pretty sure that of all those patients, some had TMAU2. Some of them did not show mutated or damaged FM03 gene.
And yes I did confirm with Dr. Preti.
@ray2502
Thanks Ray, @da1642 and I were just contemplating on a paper about TMAU1 alleles he found about the different varieties of FMO3 variants as you might have read at the bottom of this thread. Given his statement is true, it would imply PATM is not any of the TMAU1 variants. Besides as I’ve mentioned before, it wouldn’t make sense since we were all fine before and suddenly everything changed and never gotten better regardless what we do, but the FMO3 variant gene should be expressed always. In addition, if we had faulty liver enzymes, it wouldn’t explain why all of us PATM and TMAU2 patients having severe gut permeability problem. Liver enzymes have very little impact on the gut. It only process blood coming out of the gut and into the liver. What do you think Ray?
Thanks Ray, @da1642 and I were just contemplating on a paper about TMAU1 alleles he found about the different varieties of FMO3 variants as you might have read at the bottom of this thread. Given his statement is true, it would imply PATM is not any of the TMAU1 variants. Besides as I’ve mentioned before, it wouldn’t make sense since we were all fine before and suddenly everything changed and never gotten better regardless what we do, but the FMO3 variant gene should be expressed always. In addition, if we had faulty liver enzymes, it wouldn’t explain why all of us PATM and TMAU2 patients having severe gut permeability problem. Liver enzymes have very little impact on the gut. It only process blood coming out of the gut and into the liver. What do you think Ray?
Hey, da, I am in contact with many PATMers from a few different countries, unfortunately PATM is not just leaky gut.
Leaky gut is a symptom of PATM infection. Leaky gut is JUST a symptom, not a cause.
I believe that if we eliminated PATM infection, the leaky gut would go away, but at this point noone knows for sure what this infection is.
Keep it suppressed by all means possible, when it gets out of control it starts affecting your own body to a big degree as well.
It is also possible that some people get PATM symptoms without this infection, but I think that the majority of the current wave sufferers have PATM due to this particular infection.
As I've written before, this infection has many names.
Google "unknown/mystery std" and "chronic sore throat blog", preliminary - it seems to me that these two conditions, as well as PATM are one and the same.
I might be wrong, but I have arguments to support this theory.
Leaky gut is a symptom of PATM infection. Leaky gut is JUST a symptom, not a cause.
I believe that if we eliminated PATM infection, the leaky gut would go away, but at this point noone knows for sure what this infection is.
Keep it suppressed by all means possible, when it gets out of control it starts affecting your own body to a big degree as well.
It is also possible that some people get PATM symptoms without this infection, but I think that the majority of the current wave sufferers have PATM due to this particular infection.
As I've written before, this infection has many names.
Google "unknown/mystery std" and "chronic sore throat blog", preliminary - it seems to me that these two conditions, as well as PATM are one and the same.
I might be wrong, but I have arguments to support this theory.
4 Comments
@ LaserShark8
Of course. We’ve been discussing that for the last couple of days. Leaky gut doesn’t just become leaky for no reason. If I remember correctly I came up with 3 possible reasons. Genetic problems on epithelial cells, toxins from overgrowth of pathogens eating away at gut lining or food toxins. I predicted toxins from overgrowth pathogen as the most likely cause. Remember experts predict this as the most probably cause of TMAU2. Since TMAU2 and PATM have been found to be similar in many respect so far in the MeBO experiment, chances are they are caused by overgrowth pathogen. I believe there’s a difference but we just haven’t gotten there yet.
MeBO found leakygut, low amino-acids and a few others…check MeBO summary video.. are the thing that has been proven so far. Everything else is a guess.
Given the “unknown/mystery std” is not based on scientific papers, I think it’s a wild guess just like the candida idea. STD is sexually transmitted diseases so I’m not sure what’s that got to do with PATM. Can you explain what you mean?
The sore throat? Yes, that’s what toxins do. They cause swelling, inflammation and are very painful. Toxins come out of our sweat glands but very hard for pathogens to do the same without hurting us. Sweat glands are designed to also release toxins. Anything that irritates or triggers the immune system inflammation will occur on epithelial cells.
Of course. We’ve been discussing that for the last couple of days. Leaky gut doesn’t just become leaky for no reason. If I remember correctly I came up with 3 possible reasons. Genetic problems on epithelial cells, toxins from overgrowth of pathogens eating away at gut lining or food toxins. I predicted toxins from overgrowth pathogen as the most likely cause. Remember experts predict this as the most probably cause of TMAU2. Since TMAU2 and PATM have been found to be similar in many respect so far in the MeBO experiment, chances are they are caused by overgrowth pathogen. I believe there’s a difference but we just haven’t gotten there yet.
MeBO found leakygut, low amino-acids and a few others…check MeBO summary video.. are the thing that has been proven so far. Everything else is a guess.
Given the “unknown/mystery std” is not based on scientific papers, I think it’s a wild guess just like the candida idea. STD is sexually transmitted diseases so I’m not sure what’s that got to do with PATM. Can you explain what you mean?
The sore throat? Yes, that’s what toxins do. They cause swelling, inflammation and are very painful. Toxins come out of our sweat glands but very hard for pathogens to do the same without hurting us. Sweat glands are designed to also release toxins. Anything that irritates or triggers the immune system inflammation will occur on epithelial cells.
@ LaserShark8
As @da16424 said it, we are really just suppressing gut permeability until we find the cure. I suggested FMT as a possible cure but many others have also gotten other ideas.
As @da16424 said it, we are really just suppressing gut permeability until we find the cure. I suggested FMT as a possible cure but many others have also gotten other ideas.
@dontgiveuphope "Can you explain what you mean?" I mean that I know a few people already that think they picked up PATM after a sexual intercourse. The thing is that this infection does not cause PATM in everyone. Some people just get sick with symptoms as described on the mentioned STD forum.
This is not an STD per se, - it is an infection that gets transmitted via bodily fluids though, which includes ST, kissing and and some others.
Some people get over it, some people get to keep it and some people, like us seem to become carriers.
There were a bunch of reports on here about people around PATMers actually becoming sick. There is a very big % of PATMers that see this. Maybe not everyone, but a very big chunk.
Which studies can I tell you about if there was nothing done yet except that MeBO one?
I don't know whether FMT will work, I doubt it to be honest.
So far the people that have improved (that I know of) have gotten better due to some antibiotics or some other drugs that could act like antibiotics or maybe alter the gut flora.
Also many people suspect some rare mold to be the culprit.
This is not an STD per se, - it is an infection that gets transmitted via bodily fluids though, which includes ST, kissing and and some others.
Some people get over it, some people get to keep it and some people, like us seem to become carriers.
There were a bunch of reports on here about people around PATMers actually becoming sick. There is a very big % of PATMers that see this. Maybe not everyone, but a very big chunk.
Which studies can I tell you about if there was nothing done yet except that MeBO one?
I don't know whether FMT will work, I doubt it to be honest.
So far the people that have improved (that I know of) have gotten better due to some antibiotics or some other drugs that could act like antibiotics or maybe alter the gut flora.
Also many people suspect some rare mold to be the culprit.
@LaserShark8
I see what mean about sexually transmitted disease. Btw, I’ve never had that experience so I wouldn’t know. I’ve had several partners and none of them developed PATM. I’ve never infected anyone. But you never know since I haven’t observed other members in here to know case by case. But it was asked in a survey years ago if anyone has a relative with PATM and I don’t remember anyone saying yes, maybe one if I remember. The people whom have had it for decades never had PATM relatives. If this thing was highly contagious through saliva and blood it would have spread quickly just like TB and typhoid.
People around me get a flu-like sickness but they don’t become PATMers themselves regardless of how much they’re exposed to me.
“Which studies can I tell you about if there was nothing done yet except that MeBO one? ”
Precisely! That’s what I meant those people that made those claims have no footing yet.
I’ve heard of the rare mold and candida ever since the forum started but I have to be honest there’s no evidence to push out the other pathogens. Just look at the data we’ve gotten so far.
Will FMT work? You could be right we don’t know but it’s the only promising thing we have. It’s the only one that has been proven successful against TMAU2 ever! Remember TMAU2 was original thought of as an acquired disfunctional FMO3 enzyme and cannot be cured. FMT changed all that.
Here’s a thing that some members don’t seem to understand, probiotics and antibiotics are somehow the same thing, in regards to our problem. This is why some gastrointestinal doctors refer to FMT as the ultimately antibiotic and probiotic. It is not, but they are referring to this fact which I’m going to explain. Let’s take C.diff for example. We can remove it by killing it with an antibiotic or introduce new microbes via FMT that would produce specific toxins that target and act as an antibiotic against C.diff, and always keep track of C.diff. All probiotics is a subset of the full set of probiotics in FMT.
“So far the people that have improved (that I know of) have gotten better due to some antibiotics”
We both know that is not true. I’ve tried every antibiotic out there and hasn’t worked. Most of us have. There’s only about 6-8 different types of antibiotics if you know what I mean. All the different subscription antibiotics, slightly over 100, belong to these 6-8 classes. There are new kinds still under trial and if prescribed it will have restricted access to keep it from falling into people like us and built resistance.
No one has tried it so we won’t know unless we do. Btw, did you know that FMT has succeeded in curing other gastrointestinal disease where all antibiotics have failed and deemed an incurable disease?
Once I try it I’ll let everyone know but until we try it we won’t know. FMT is tricky so it needs to be done properly.
I see what mean about sexually transmitted disease. Btw, I’ve never had that experience so I wouldn’t know. I’ve had several partners and none of them developed PATM. I’ve never infected anyone. But you never know since I haven’t observed other members in here to know case by case. But it was asked in a survey years ago if anyone has a relative with PATM and I don’t remember anyone saying yes, maybe one if I remember. The people whom have had it for decades never had PATM relatives. If this thing was highly contagious through saliva and blood it would have spread quickly just like TB and typhoid.
People around me get a flu-like sickness but they don’t become PATMers themselves regardless of how much they’re exposed to me.
“Which studies can I tell you about if there was nothing done yet except that MeBO one? ”
Precisely! That’s what I meant those people that made those claims have no footing yet.
I’ve heard of the rare mold and candida ever since the forum started but I have to be honest there’s no evidence to push out the other pathogens. Just look at the data we’ve gotten so far.
Will FMT work? You could be right we don’t know but it’s the only promising thing we have. It’s the only one that has been proven successful against TMAU2 ever! Remember TMAU2 was original thought of as an acquired disfunctional FMO3 enzyme and cannot be cured. FMT changed all that.
Here’s a thing that some members don’t seem to understand, probiotics and antibiotics are somehow the same thing, in regards to our problem. This is why some gastrointestinal doctors refer to FMT as the ultimately antibiotic and probiotic. It is not, but they are referring to this fact which I’m going to explain. Let’s take C.diff for example. We can remove it by killing it with an antibiotic or introduce new microbes via FMT that would produce specific toxins that target and act as an antibiotic against C.diff, and always keep track of C.diff. All probiotics is a subset of the full set of probiotics in FMT.
“So far the people that have improved (that I know of) have gotten better due to some antibiotics”
We both know that is not true. I’ve tried every antibiotic out there and hasn’t worked. Most of us have. There’s only about 6-8 different types of antibiotics if you know what I mean. All the different subscription antibiotics, slightly over 100, belong to these 6-8 classes. There are new kinds still under trial and if prescribed it will have restricted access to keep it from falling into people like us and built resistance.
No one has tried it so we won’t know unless we do. Btw, did you know that FMT has succeeded in curing other gastrointestinal disease where all antibiotics have failed and deemed an incurable disease?
Once I try it I’ll let everyone know but until we try it we won’t know. FMT is tricky so it needs to be done properly.
Antibiotics?
11 Comments
I've never taken antibiotics. The only prescription I've ever had was for topical acne cream. I have multiple cysts on my back, which a dermatologist said could be related to candida, and I know that many people with morgellons have cysts as well; this is why I've inclined to believe posters that say this is related with morgellons.
@da16424
PATM related to Morgellons?
Morgellons and PATM clearly are different so you are right. However, some Morgellons people have had some PATM symptoms. We don’t know why exactly but I took a wild guess. There’s also the possibility that these patients have PATM and Morgellons at the same time.
I don’t have Morgellons so your guess is as good as mine but hear me out. My guess was based on the existing solved cases of Morgellons. I’m not sure how many out there but I’ve seen a case where a doctor traced the toxic substance to mercury fillings. As soon as the doctor removed the toxic substance her symptom stopped.
“I’ve never taken antibiotics”
If yes then what? What’s your point? Please explain.
However let me explain my part first. If you’re using a computer, then chances are you’ve used prescription antibiotics several times in your life. But here’s the definition, we refer to antibiotics as prescription antibiotics but anything that can kill a few gut flora can do the same thing - anything that kills a few strains. Alcohol and food preservatives does exactly what antibiotics do although not as strong but differences in doses will bring up the effects. There are many chemicals in nature that do the same thing as prescription antibiotics/antifungal, for instance tea tree, Oregano oil, peroxides. It doesn’t have to kill off an entire strain, all it needs to do is weaken it and consequently competitor strain can thrive in numbers. Read some papers on C.diff infection… not everyone knows whether they’ve been taking antibiotics or not although the majority seems to indicate that.
Taymount Clinic cured one TMAU2 patient in 2013 but she didn’t stay in touch for months for the clinic to confirm the permanent effect. If you read the post by the doctor from taymount clinic, the patient is more of a PATM than TMAU2. The patient is like those here who claim to have odors but doctors can’t smell them with their own nose. The only way to tell was for her to go out and get cozy in coffee shops and trains and come back and report. That’s sounds more like PATM to me. Either way it doesn’t really matter because TMAU2 is considered by scientists to be most likely a gut microbiota imbalance. We too PATMers have proved this relationship too. Members have used antibiotics, probiotics, diet and show signs of PATM variating accordingly. So both conditions point in the same direction but I think the biggest surprising proofs came from MeBO.
PATM related to Morgellons?
Morgellons and PATM clearly are different so you are right. However, some Morgellons people have had some PATM symptoms. We don’t know why exactly but I took a wild guess. There’s also the possibility that these patients have PATM and Morgellons at the same time.
I don’t have Morgellons so your guess is as good as mine but hear me out. My guess was based on the existing solved cases of Morgellons. I’m not sure how many out there but I’ve seen a case where a doctor traced the toxic substance to mercury fillings. As soon as the doctor removed the toxic substance her symptom stopped.
“I’ve never taken antibiotics”
If yes then what? What’s your point? Please explain.
However let me explain my part first. If you’re using a computer, then chances are you’ve used prescription antibiotics several times in your life. But here’s the definition, we refer to antibiotics as prescription antibiotics but anything that can kill a few gut flora can do the same thing - anything that kills a few strains. Alcohol and food preservatives does exactly what antibiotics do although not as strong but differences in doses will bring up the effects. There are many chemicals in nature that do the same thing as prescription antibiotics/antifungal, for instance tea tree, Oregano oil, peroxides. It doesn’t have to kill off an entire strain, all it needs to do is weaken it and consequently competitor strain can thrive in numbers. Read some papers on C.diff infection… not everyone knows whether they’ve been taking antibiotics or not although the majority seems to indicate that.
Taymount Clinic cured one TMAU2 patient in 2013 but she didn’t stay in touch for months for the clinic to confirm the permanent effect. If you read the post by the doctor from taymount clinic, the patient is more of a PATM than TMAU2. The patient is like those here who claim to have odors but doctors can’t smell them with their own nose. The only way to tell was for her to go out and get cozy in coffee shops and trains and come back and report. That’s sounds more like PATM to me. Either way it doesn’t really matter because TMAU2 is considered by scientists to be most likely a gut microbiota imbalance. We too PATMers have proved this relationship too. Members have used antibiotics, probiotics, diet and show signs of PATM variating accordingly. So both conditions point in the same direction but I think the biggest surprising proofs came from MeBO.
@ da16424
This is what helps me most. I take “Restore, desiccated liver, rice protein powder(Jarrow), probiotics with just two strains, Lactobacillus rhamnosus, Bifidobacterium longum. They have the highest effect of tightening up gut lining. I have to follow the vegetarian diet always for the above to work.
Here’s the ironic part. If I pinch eat today but have a meeting tomorrow, I can take antibiotics with a few laxatives of my own and within 8 hours my gut is almost empty. Then I just follow straight afterwards the above routine of supplement intake before the meeting. When I’m in the meeting, PATM is either totally absent or too mild that I can’t tell.
It’s not healthy but I can do this because I understand what’s happening within our gut.
At the moment I’m trying to figure out a way to do a FMT at the nearest FMT clinic or buy FMT pills. It’s not going to be easy but I’m going to try anyway. I want to do one FMT per day for 10 days in a row. I don’t know how long it will take for a success.
This is what helps me most. I take “Restore, desiccated liver, rice protein powder(Jarrow), probiotics with just two strains, Lactobacillus rhamnosus, Bifidobacterium longum. They have the highest effect of tightening up gut lining. I have to follow the vegetarian diet always for the above to work.
Here’s the ironic part. If I pinch eat today but have a meeting tomorrow, I can take antibiotics with a few laxatives of my own and within 8 hours my gut is almost empty. Then I just follow straight afterwards the above routine of supplement intake before the meeting. When I’m in the meeting, PATM is either totally absent or too mild that I can’t tell.
It’s not healthy but I can do this because I understand what’s happening within our gut.
At the moment I’m trying to figure out a way to do a FMT at the nearest FMT clinic or buy FMT pills. It’s not going to be easy but I’m going to try anyway. I want to do one FMT per day for 10 days in a row. I don’t know how long it will take for a success.
I also take restore and have been gluten and dairy free since September. Luckily my summer job between semesters is a bike courier so I get a lot of exercise. Between the diet, biking, and running, my PATM is now mild, but it comes right back if I stray from my diet. I plan on taking a 23andme gene test, which I don't think will reveal anything surprising, but I will post my results.
For those who are interested in real research with peer reviewed papers or just scientific papers. Google scholar is the best place because most of you have no access to university peer reviewed journal databases.
There’s two ways to research, you can do experiments at labs or you can analyze existing scientific papers to come up with a conclusion to something. This is probably the most many here can do. Google scholar is a savior for many that don’t make to university. I know many students who still prefer google scholar over their university database.
Anyway look up anything that fastens the tight-junction protein, the protein responsible for stitching gut lining cells together. Anything that works best at doing this will help our problem even better. “Restore” is one product but we need more of them. There also strains that does this too. I’ve searched up a few. Lactobacillus rhamnosus, Bifidobacterium longum, Saccharomyces boulardii have been known to help seal tight-junctions closed. If we know more, the better. I’ve actually taken this probiotic in large overdose with Restore and it worked great. For restore I just take a whole cap, that’s about 6 teaspoons.
The opposite of all this is something like gluten from all grass products except rice. Gluten destroys tight junctions and gaps start to form between cells on the gut lining.
I’m not sure why coffee worsen patm but my guess is it works like gluten or inflames the lining in a way. If you guys find something on a paper on google scholar, please let me know. Here’s a tip for those that are not family with scientific papers. Most scholars just read the abstract. The abstract is the briefing of the whole paper. If it’s interesting then you read on, if not throw it away.
There’s two ways to research, you can do experiments at labs or you can analyze existing scientific papers to come up with a conclusion to something. This is probably the most many here can do. Google scholar is a savior for many that don’t make to university. I know many students who still prefer google scholar over their university database.
Anyway look up anything that fastens the tight-junction protein, the protein responsible for stitching gut lining cells together. Anything that works best at doing this will help our problem even better. “Restore” is one product but we need more of them. There also strains that does this too. I’ve searched up a few. Lactobacillus rhamnosus, Bifidobacterium longum, Saccharomyces boulardii have been known to help seal tight-junctions closed. If we know more, the better. I’ve actually taken this probiotic in large overdose with Restore and it worked great. For restore I just take a whole cap, that’s about 6 teaspoons.
The opposite of all this is something like gluten from all grass products except rice. Gluten destroys tight junctions and gaps start to form between cells on the gut lining.
I’m not sure why coffee worsen patm but my guess is it works like gluten or inflames the lining in a way. If you guys find something on a paper on google scholar, please let me know. Here’s a tip for those that are not family with scientific papers. Most scholars just read the abstract. The abstract is the briefing of the whole paper. If it’s interesting then you read on, if not throw it away.
I haven't thought doing research on PATM beyond forums like this; it never occurred to me that what we have is related to anything known. I'll look around on Google Scholar and see if I can find anything, but I don't know if I'll understand any medical terminology. Luckily I have access to any academic journals as well through my university.
@ da16424
I’m happy for you dude. You seemed to be going OK with your life. Hey, since you are in college please help out with the research when you can. We want to find anything i.e. chemicals, food, probiotics etc. that help seal tight junctions shut. The more at our disposal the better.
I was reading a paper on google scholar the other day where they tested several gut strains on in-vitro gut linings and measured using teer level with different compounds. On the graph it showed two strains to be higher than the control. There’s so much to read but I didn’t have time to read through them all.
Interestingly, I was looking at the paper about Restore and compared it to this one, Bifidobacterium longum seem to function better than RESTORE on the large intestine.
I’m happy for you dude. You seemed to be going OK with your life. Hey, since you are in college please help out with the research when you can. We want to find anything i.e. chemicals, food, probiotics etc. that help seal tight junctions shut. The more at our disposal the better.
I was reading a paper on google scholar the other day where they tested several gut strains on in-vitro gut linings and measured using teer level with different compounds. On the graph it showed two strains to be higher than the control. There’s so much to read but I didn’t have time to read through them all.
Interestingly, I was looking at the paper about Restore and compared it to this one, Bifidobacterium longum seem to function better than RESTORE on the large intestine.
@ da16424
Btw, screening for genetic diseases is good because we’ll have more information on our hands. However, I just want to make some points that you may not know or probably do, but I’ll just say it just in case. We don’t know all traits associated with each gene or genes in the human genome. It’s probably impossible to know them all because a trait is both objective and subjective in a sense. I’ve looked it up and 23andMe is only aware of 90 traits so they’ll only screen for them.
This means they only look for those specific genes associated with those traits. Nothing else would show up. Some people think that DNA profiling is the same thing as the whole DNA genome sequencing. No they aren’t the same thing. A total DNA genome sequencing for a single person usually take weeks to months depending on technology used. It’s hardly done. Although checking for a few genes can take hours to days. It’s much easier but every other gene, not included, are trashed. This is the type of DNA testing that most of us are familiar with. It’s just checking for a few loci. If I remember the FBI database checks for only 23 loci within the human DNA. That gives a probability of over 1 suspect out of several billions. In your case, they’d be looking for 90 loci only.
Ok, so if PATM is genetic based which gene are we looking for? They don’t know this information so they aren’t looking for it but let’s say there’s some gene that displays PATM related to another disorder then we can probably use it to build an association with the results you get. For instance, what if it shows a defective FMO3 gene. That is if TMAU1 is one of their 90 traits.
Btw, screening for genetic diseases is good because we’ll have more information on our hands. However, I just want to make some points that you may not know or probably do, but I’ll just say it just in case. We don’t know all traits associated with each gene or genes in the human genome. It’s probably impossible to know them all because a trait is both objective and subjective in a sense. I’ve looked it up and 23andMe is only aware of 90 traits so they’ll only screen for them.
This means they only look for those specific genes associated with those traits. Nothing else would show up. Some people think that DNA profiling is the same thing as the whole DNA genome sequencing. No they aren’t the same thing. A total DNA genome sequencing for a single person usually take weeks to months depending on technology used. It’s hardly done. Although checking for a few genes can take hours to days. It’s much easier but every other gene, not included, are trashed. This is the type of DNA testing that most of us are familiar with. It’s just checking for a few loci. If I remember the FBI database checks for only 23 loci within the human DNA. That gives a probability of over 1 suspect out of several billions. In your case, they’d be looking for 90 loci only.
Ok, so if PATM is genetic based which gene are we looking for? They don’t know this information so they aren’t looking for it but let’s say there’s some gene that displays PATM related to another disorder then we can probably use it to build an association with the results you get. For instance, what if it shows a defective FMO3 gene. That is if TMAU1 is one of their 90 traits.
Dontgiveuphope, i've been trying to heal my gut lining for the past 2 months. Been drinking bone broth every week and also doing heavy doses of glutamine powder. Still dont see any difference. Perhaps the gut needs much more than this.
i'm going to order some restore and desiccated liver since its working for suppressing your reactions. Are you taking the powder form or the capsules? Also, have you tried the food grade hydrogen peroxide therapy? I was under the impression that the PH is out of balance and introducing something that would create a better PH inside our bodies would be a good suppressor. Havent tried it.
i'm going to order some restore and desiccated liver since its working for suppressing your reactions. Are you taking the powder form or the capsules? Also, have you tried the food grade hydrogen peroxide therapy? I was under the impression that the PH is out of balance and introducing something that would create a better PH inside our bodies would be a good suppressor. Havent tried it.
@Jon3456
Agree. As we’ve talked about before, we can only suppress it. We haven’t got the cure yet. If FMT is tried and fails, a cure will be a long way off. We’ll have to watch the MeBO research closely and home for the best.
When pharmacists make antibiotics, they look for compounds that kill a particular microbe completely but not harm human cell. Peroxides harm some microbes in general but kill human cells just as much. If it was ok for human cells, pharmacists would have used it as an antibiotic a long time ago. It does not help the PH. I’m not sure who came up with that idea too. I’ve seen it here a lot. Hydrogen peroxide isn’t acidic or basic because it’s a peroxide. It’s an oxidizer – a free radical. The very thing that we take antioxidants to get rid of. “anti – oxidants”…..
The human stomach has a PH of 1 to 3, (mostly HCl acid) and it’s regulated at that ph level by the stomach lining itself, but our problem is in the intestine and not the stomach otherwise PATM will start the exact few seconds you drop a piece of sweet into your stomach. You should never care about your stomach’s PH because it maintains itself. The only time you should be worrying about stomach PH is if you are literary drinking baking powder/soda for some unknown reasons. Baking soda is a base so will neutralize stomach acidity.
Try charcoal or oregano oil for controlling gut microbes but with a little more than normal. Take together with magnesium oxide after a few hours. Oxypowder is really just magnesium oxide. Epson salt is also magnesium oxide. It’s just used as a laxative. The owner of oxypowder, Edward Group, who’s not a doctor at all but a known quack, just imported magnesium oxide and sold it as ozonized magnesium which is impossible to keep stable chemically in real life. Regardless, the product sells.
Agree. As we’ve talked about before, we can only suppress it. We haven’t got the cure yet. If FMT is tried and fails, a cure will be a long way off. We’ll have to watch the MeBO research closely and home for the best.
When pharmacists make antibiotics, they look for compounds that kill a particular microbe completely but not harm human cell. Peroxides harm some microbes in general but kill human cells just as much. If it was ok for human cells, pharmacists would have used it as an antibiotic a long time ago. It does not help the PH. I’m not sure who came up with that idea too. I’ve seen it here a lot. Hydrogen peroxide isn’t acidic or basic because it’s a peroxide. It’s an oxidizer – a free radical. The very thing that we take antioxidants to get rid of. “anti – oxidants”…..
The human stomach has a PH of 1 to 3, (mostly HCl acid) and it’s regulated at that ph level by the stomach lining itself, but our problem is in the intestine and not the stomach otherwise PATM will start the exact few seconds you drop a piece of sweet into your stomach. You should never care about your stomach’s PH because it maintains itself. The only time you should be worrying about stomach PH is if you are literary drinking baking powder/soda for some unknown reasons. Baking soda is a base so will neutralize stomach acidity.
Try charcoal or oregano oil for controlling gut microbes but with a little more than normal. Take together with magnesium oxide after a few hours. Oxypowder is really just magnesium oxide. Epson salt is also magnesium oxide. It’s just used as a laxative. The owner of oxypowder, Edward Group, who’s not a doctor at all but a known quack, just imported magnesium oxide and sold it as ozonized magnesium which is impossible to keep stable chemically in real life. Regardless, the product sells.
Thanks for helping out with our research. Just don’t let it come first on more important things like your studies. Btw, MeBO has isolated PATM and TMAU from halitosis and other group volunteers but since it’s just a preliminary report, we haven’t separated the difference between the two. They both have leaky gut, they both lack certain amino acids involved in repair and growth… the very thing we need for healing and detoxification…lol.. but hopefully there’ll be more information in the future to differentiate them. I’m beginning to suspect that the only difference between the two is where on the leakygut is happening or the extend of leakiness or microbes involved. We’ll just have to wait and see.
Before people use to guess Before people use to guess leakygut had something to do with it but now we know for sure leaky gut has everything to do with it. That’s a great leap forward.leak
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