Abortion

[JoyRenee]

A pregnant woman was murdered (shot by gun) in my city. The person who shot her may be tried for two murders: hers and that of her unborn baby. I just don't understand how a doctor can abort a baby and say they "aren't human yet" and yet someone can be tried for the murder of an unborn baby? The very definition of murder is "to kill a human being". Somewhere along the line SOMEONE is wrong

I'm not trying to start an argument, but bring to the table some more information. If we don't stand up for the helpless, who else will? I was reading some literature at the preg. center on abortion and there was a panel of doctors who were asked to sit down and try to pinpoint the time in which an unborn baby is deemed "human". None of them could deny that it was at conception, or shortly after conception.

And I'm also not condemning anyone whose had an abortion. Please don't think that! There is help for any of you who has had one and is struggling (www.hopeafterabortion.com).

[cindy82]

yea, i read somewhere that they do them up to 24 weeks, and a baby was born and lived being born at 21 weeks. they try to say that the baby doesnt feel anything, there so wrong

[JoyRenee]

Babies feel things very much. I even watched a series on Discovery Health. If a baby is pinched or pricked with something in utero, they flinch and even cry. Babies can cry in utero. In the womb they are just as they would be OUTSIDE of the womb. They suck their thumbs, rub their eyes, yawn, drink (the amniotic fluid), see lights through out tummies, feel us push on them, play with their hands... I've seen all of this on either video or pictures.

They actually perform abortions up until 40 weeks in a lot of places. They're called full-term abortions.

[cindy82]

now thats really sad

[Shell24]

Human egg, human sperm...how is it not considered a human at the time conception?. It has all of the genetic make-up of a human being as soon as the egg and sperm meet...I'm not going any further because I get very riled up about the topic of abortion. I might make some one mad.

[heatherlynn22]

it's sad that even though we are carrying life inside us some feel it's not a human life. what...are we carrying aliens? sasquatch? it's horrible.

when i was in high school i took a child's class (i can't remember the name of it) but our teacher had us watch a movie on abortions. (to help sway against it) from a week up to the partial birth abortions. it was sad. especially the ones where you could make out the babies features. and you know what the common occurance in ALL of the abortions was? they baby cried and tried to get away from the doctor. yup....the baby did what it could to survive but didn't b/c it's mother let it down. seeing how those doctors did that....and seeing the image of the babies face on the ultrasound seeing them screaming in pain as they did it....was horrifiying!!! i hate seeing living babies cry....let alone those who are being murdered right there in the womb.

but how can one person be accused of murdering someone who's not alive when they're not deemed a human being. if they can be tried why can't the abortionist?

[motherofan18month]

within 4 weeks there is blood flow.....and atleast 6 weeks there is a heartbeat....so how can it not be human or living? that's what i don't get!

[LosingMyMindInGA]

I agree that it begins at conception....if they can charge a killer with2 counts of murder becuase he killed a pregnant woman then why are doctors in abortion clinics all over the country being charged with murder? Why aren't the mothers being charged? It's just another example of our screwed up justice system.

[mo41486]

All I know is my baby has a beating heart, can suck his/her thumb by now and at my last ultra sound (s)he was jumping all around so much the doc couldn't get an accurate heart rate.  My baby is very much alive and I can't believe that there are some people who don't think so.  

[JoyRenee]

heatherlynn, I have seen pictures and read on abortion but what you just described makes me want to throw up. I wondered what the baby's did during partial-birth ones... I won't go into details on HOW they're done, but that just breaks my heart. I could not even imagine if that had been one of my two sweet girls.

Yes, abortionists say that an embryo/fetus is not a human, not yet, because they aren't alive "on their own". HOWEVER, there is an Oprah episode where (I believe it was Planned Parenthood) pro-choice docs and nurses came on the show and she admitted, on her show, that yes, they were human and life began at, or close to, conception. How's THAT for injustice?!?!?!?

[rlt123]

although i personally believe abortion is VERY wrong, i think that there are situations where it should be the womans choice ie. in a rape situation or if the baby is going to have severe physical or mental defects where they wouldnt make it past the first years of their lives. Just my opinion....

[JoyRenee]

You're entitled to your opinion, rlt123 and I won't argue with you. A medically necessary abortion when the baby's life or the mother's life is in jeapordy isn't like "birth control". It's just necessary for survival. That isn't considered a routine abortion. An actual medical doctor, no abortionist, performs that in a hospital. So I am not opposed to that.

However, I've read stories from rape victims who either kept their babies or given them up for adoption. One story was written by the CHILD who was almost aborted. She said her mom tried to abort her three times, unsuccessfully. She is now a doctor trying to find cures for cancer.

I don't believe taking a life, no matter HOW that baby was conceived, is right. Who knows who we are killing? But again, not trying to change your mind, just putting my 2 cents in! ;-)

[rlt123]

i see the medically necssary point, and thats great that the woman kept the baby even though in a rape situation it wasnt her responsibility to do so, i just think God forbid it but if i was raped by a family member and became pregnant with a child out of circumstances like that it would be more of a problem mentally for me than if i had an abortion....like im sure that any woman in that situation who kept the baby has psycological issues that she and her whole family would have to suffer with

[rachie204]

i watched something on tv a few weeks ago about prison.  There was one guy in there who was only 16 or 17.  He was a good kid...he was rear ended and the person who hit him tried to drive off..when they did he chased them to try and get a tag number..during the chase they lost contol of the car and had a wreck.  One of the passengers was pregnant and during the wreck miscarried.  Nooone else was injured, but the boy was sent to prison for involuntary manslaughter.  I don't understand how they can charge him but not doctors who are doing the same thing on purpose.

[JoyRenee]

Yeah, I totally see your point! I just still can't come to terms with abortion in a situation like that, after knowing how they are done, seeing pics, etc. It's a life, even if they are conceived in horrible situations. In early abortion, they scrape or suction the baby out. When baby is older, they crush its skull and take them out piece-by-piece. Sometimes they do saline injections to kill baby, then deliver them. And what heatherlynn described up above about the babies crying and trying to turn away from the doc is heart-wrenching. That baby is suffering because of a choice someone is making, instead of giving them to a family who can't have a baby.

I've actually asked myself A LOT, "If someone were to rape me and I became pregnant, what would I do?" And I always came to the same conclusion, I'd either keep the baby or give it up for adoption. Most likely I'd keep it because it would still be a part of me.

There would be mental repurcusions, but I've got a close relationship to God, so I feel that I'd be okay. A woman def. would have to have counseling whether she chose abortion or to keep/adopt the baby out.

[rlt123]

omg i have never heard of them crushing skulss..i thought it was a vaccume thingy that they do befor the baby is far developed...that makes me really sad :-(
welll i certainly dont agree with that, but the vacuume thing before the baby is fully developed i could understand only like i said if it was in a rape/icest situation

[JoyRenee]

Yeah, if you want more info, there's a great site called www.abortionfacts.com. If you don't want to know details, don't go to that site!

[JoyRenee]

Oh, well... the babies are all developed during abortions. The earliest one could know they are pregnant is about 4 weeks and by the time they get an abortion, the baby has it's major organs, brain waves, heartbeat. It can wiggle and move their tiny little arm and leg buds, too.

[Gina209]

Either way....to kill someone intentionally is a form of Punishment. Just like the death penalty..people are sentanced to death as a form of punishment for their actions. So by killing these innocent babies...it is like punishment for something they had NO control over. Whether the baby was conceived out of love...out of a younger girl and boy not using protection, out of rape, out of incest...whatever the situation is, it was not the babys fault and it is being punished for someone elses actions. And I believe that is wrong. Thats like putting an innocent man or woman to the electric chair (which has happened) and its just a tragedy.

Believe me, I respect everyones opinion so I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I am 100% pro life...no matter the circumstance. I worked as a Rape Crisis Counselor for 2 years...so I know first hand what these girls and guys go through when their raped and end up Pregnant...and I feel for them...truly. But the fact still remains, something was created...a child...a living being...and to take that life for any reason is just wrong...

[judylacar]

This just breaks my heart and makes me angry!

ARE THE BABIES ALIVE DURING THE ABORTION?

Yes! On July 11, 1995, American Medical News (AMA’s official journal) submitted the transcript of a tape-recorded interview with abortionist Dr. Martin Haskell to the House Judiciary Committee in which he admitted: “...the majority of fetuses aborted this way (partial birth abortion) are alive until the end of the procedure.”

IS THIS TYPE OF ABORTION RARE?

When this type of procedure first became public knowledge, those defending it said it was only done a few hundred times a year. Then Ron Fitzsimmons, the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers admitted on ABC’s “Nightline” (11/95) that he had lied when he asserted the procedure was used rarely and only on women whose lives were in danger. The reality is, this gruesome method of killing partially born babies is done many thousands of times a year. Abortionist, Dr. McMahon, admitted in 1995 to performing over 2000 partial birth abortions.

ARE THEY PERFORMED ONLY ON SEVERELY DEFORMED BABIES?

That is what the abortion industry would like you to believe. But Dr. Haskell said in a tape recorded interview with the AMA’s American Medical News: “...and I’ll be quite frank: most of my abortions are elective (not medically necessary) in that 20-24 week range ... In my particular case, probably 20% are for genetic reasons. And the other 80% are purely elective.” An article in the L.A. Times (8/28/96) listed some of the medical reasons for this type of abortion. They included cleft palates, cystic hygroma, (both easily corrected problems) and cystic fibrosis. The medical conditions present in the mother that warranted this type of abortion were, “depression, chicken pox, diabetes, vomiting ...” In other words, even those partial birth abortions that are done for the “health of the mother” or because of a “defective fetus” are often performed for minor, easily correctable conditions. Dr. C. Everett Coop, former U.S. Surgeon General, stated, “... in no way can I twist my mind to see that the late-term abortion as described is a medical necessity for the mother. It certainly can’t be a necessity for the baby.”

IS THIS TYPE OF ABORTION EVER DONE ON THIRD TRIMESTER BABIES?

Yes. While most babies are in their 20th to 24th week when aborted in this manner, babies are aborted as late as the ninth month! This was admitted to by abortionist Dr. McMahon who, in 1995, submitted to the House Judiciary Constitution Subcommittee a graph and explanation that showed he aborted healthy babies even in the third trimester!

As disturbing as this sounds, these are the facts. In this country medical doctors are partially delivering babies and then killing them. These babies are inches from being born. Many could be born and placed directly in the loving arms of childless couples for adoption. Instead, they are cruelly killed. Some call this abortion. No matter what you call it, you cannot alter the reality - 4 more inches out of the womb and this act would be called murder.

[JoyRenee]

Ooh, that last line is so true. It's exactly how I feel!!! They can kill the baby while in the protective womb of it's mother, but just a few more inches out, as soon as they breathe, they'd be murderers. I've heard of women having c-section abortions in the 8th and 9th month and being killed and then pulled out. But if they were pulled out FIRST, it would be murder.

How can anyone do this with a CONSCIENCE?!

[Gina209]

Soo we can basically stick someone in a big warm bubble and kill them (as long as their parents or guardian give us permission) and thats okay? I feel like thats what their saying!
I read that since 1973 over 45 Million babies have been Murdered/Aborted....45 Million..thats so sad. And people wonder why we haven't cured Cancer...

[judylacar]

Ya know, I often ask myself if I were to be raped and get pregnant, what I would do, actually I wrote a paper on it in high school. No matter how much I would be messed up from the rape, that child is not at fault and I myself could not handle killing a baby.

And I do not understand how anyone could pull the baby out until their head, jab something sharp in their skull to kill the baby and then pull it out and not call it murder! I know that everyone has their own thoughts and I am not wanting to start anything like the rest of you, but I just cannot for the life of me fathom it, it makes me sick to my stomach! Just because you cannot see the baby and hold it in your arms, doesn't mean that it isn't living, it has feelings and emotion, for crying out loud, the baby cries and fights and no matter the reason the baby was concieved, the baby was in fact concieved and deserves a chance at living and being happy and loved, even if not by the mother, someone out here will take that baby and love it and not treat it as a "product" of whatever the case may be.

[LosingMyMindInGA]

Joy brought up planned parenthood.   Which I've known has been pro-choice but hadn't realized just how horrible they are.  My mom is beginning to volunteer at the pregnancy resource center through her church and receives all kinds of information on this kind of thing.  PP actually promotes abortions.  When they perform the abortions many of their clinics will actually put the fetus in a closet.  They check on it later and if the baby is still alive they just leave it.  There have been people who have gone undercover to work at these PP clinic and wear hidden cameras in an attempt to shut these places down.  They are also gettin very sneaky.  There's a town in ohio that had decided years ago that they would never have an abortion clinic in the town.  Well planned parenthood applied for permits and everything under a compeltely different unrelated name...construction was completed and when they went to open their doors they changed the name at the last minute.  People were going in there only to realize it was an abortion clinic.  Now the town is fighting tooth and nail to make them leave.  It's just ridiculous.  I commend Bush for signing the partial birth abortion ban but we need a president who will put a plan in action that will make it much harder for women to just have 4 and 5 abortions...I think there should be a 2 week waiting period, mandatory sonograms and several other things, a mandatory education class that goes over the EXACT procedures and possible complications etc.  I think there should be heavy counseling on the adoption route as opposed to abortion.  BUT i know that will probably never happen becuase there are too many people out there that are against our soldiers killing the enemy but are gung ho for killing innocent babies.

[judylacar]

AMEN TO THAT LOSING MY MIND, you said it perfectly!

[DSYBAHENA]

I am so against abortion. My mom has had like 6 and I can't stand her trying to make me have one. I have had lost two babies and I hate so much hearing that people are getting pregnant and having an abortion when there is so many of us wanting to have kids and losing them.

[judylacar]

I agree, I m/c in December and it makes my stomach curl

[KStarr07]

speaking of abortion, imagine after 21 weeks.... it's rediculous. but i happened upon this site after reading these posts here,
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/babysamuel.htm read this.

[KStarr07]

* http://www.michaelclancy.com/slideshow/

[cindy82]

yea look at this baby it was born at 21 weeks and made it!!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=437236&in_page_id=1774

[KStarr07]

After reading this, and searching for a picture of what a 21 week ultrasound, for something i'm doing, not really meaning to find things on abortion, I came upon a "horror of abortion" website.. and wow.. my stomach really hurts. there are more ways than mentioned here commonly used for abortion..  It makes me mad, and sick to my stomach. I would put a link up to that site, but I really doubt any of you would actually want to see what I was seeing. =/

The topic Joy brought up here, about how abortion can be "humane" somehow, and not the accidental/purposeful murder of a baby by another person, other than a certified abortionist... should be brought to the attention of the stupid government more than it is, it shouldn't be "okay" unless it's 100% neccesary.. What happened to equality? they shouldn't be able to kill a human, if other people cannot. It's unconstitutional. Pretty much getting away with murder. I don't know how abortionists can live with themselves. And, the way they get away with it, is to make sure that they kill the fetus before it is physically removed from the uterus. But it's the same thing with someone who kills a fetus by blunt trauma [or murdering] etc. to the pregnant mother. It's the same thing! but abortion is even worse. It's PURPOSEFULLY taking the baby's life and then removing it from the uterus.
This topic really does agitate me.

[judylacar]

here is a link (might be the one kstarr07 was referring to) that has some heart wrenching, stomach turning info and pictures regarding abortion. FYI though, if you don't want to throw up and cry and get mad in rage, I suggest not looking unless you can tolerate it.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Abortion%20is%20Murder/horror_of_abortion.htm

[KStarr07]

yes that's the one.... I also just watched The Silent Scream. I don't really know why I do this to myself when I get interested in something. I guess in the end just makes me feel more strongly about it than I already did.

[miko_latte]

Everytime I see a doctor they ask me "Is this your first pregnancy?" I say "No I miscarried at 5weeks before" and the doctor tells me "Oh, then it wasn't a miscarraige, it was an abortion.  Any babies before 20 weeks are referred as abortion..." It kind of upsets me that many people make it sound as if before 20 weeks, the baby is not a human.  That's sad...a heartbeat in a baby can be detected as early 4 weeks...the baby is  human...the baby is life at conception...in my eyes...I can't watch those videos, in high school they made us watch one of those abortion videos and I had to refuse to watch it, it's just sad...I've known of girls getting abortions at 6 months, 7 months, and it's just sad...

[cindy82]

when i had my m/c i was 9 weeks, but the baby never devepled. my doc talked to me at my 2 week check up after my d and c and was talking about having a m/c is loosing a baby, even if it didnt develope its still a baby!! thats what he said. sorry had to share that. sniff

[JoyRenee]

Well the term "abortion" is originally used to term "miscarriage". The word abortion has been twisted and turned into the ugly thing we now know. I don't have a problem with the word, I have a problem with the actions! If you have a m/c, the doctor actually writes "Spontaneous Abortion" on your file, which is the technical term for a loss before 20 weeks. It is considered "Stillborn" if it happens after 20 weeks.

GA, you're exactly right! I never tell anyone to go to Planned Parenthood. By law they are supposed to present a girl/woman with information on ALL her options, but they really talk them INTO the abortion because they kept money for it. That is how they stay in business. They are not a non-profit organization. There's a lot of deeper stuff but I won't go into it, about what they do. Something definitely has to be done.

Working at Birthright, I'm not allowed to picket, go on strike, or make any public attempts at "outlawing" abortion. In fact, if the government were to outlaw abortions, women would find more harmful ways to abort the baby (using a hanger on herself, drinking poisons, having bf's jump on their stomachs, etc.). I REALLY REALLY REALLY like GA's suggestions and hopefully all of you not affiliated with an organization can get it out there.

[cindy82]

yea, i went to school with a girl that died from doing that hanger deal, it was so sad. she had been raped and was sffraid to tell anybody and found out she was preg and tried to kill it herself, they say she bleed to death

[JoyRenee]

Ahh.. just checked out that website and I'm so sick to my stomach I think I'm going to puke... no joke!!! I heard that a woman can request an abortion when she delivers a baby and they'll do the "comfort care" and just let the baby die. I wasn't sure about it, so never said anything, but now I know for sure. This is real people. Innnocent babies are being born and left in hospitals without care and are dying of "natural causes". THAT is so inhumane and disgusting... I just don't understand!!! Doctors take OATHS to protect life and do all in their power to save lives... But to allow an INNOCENT baby to just lie there and scream and cry with no love or comfort until they just give up?!

I cannot and will not watch Silent Scream. I think I will vomit if I do. I just can't do it!

[cindy82]

i have heard of it, i dont wanna watch it

[JoyRenee]

OMG!!!!!!!!! You guys have to read this... I do not know if this is true or fiction but I think I AM GOING TO THROW UP!

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20America/Abortion%20is%20Murder/aborted_fetus_vaccines.htm

Aborted fetal material used in vaccines?! I know that the stem cell research uses embryonic material. And apparently there are companies who BUY aborted baby parts for research! These people are making a killing (no pun intended) on the generations that are being killed off.

[cindy82]

OMG THATS SO SICK, MY DH WAS JUST TELING ME THAT SOME COMANY GOT CAUGHT DOING EXPERMENTS ON NEWBORNS, THAT THEY WOULD BUY THE BABYS FROM MOTHERS WHO DIDNT WANT THEM. GRRRR THAT MAKES ME SO MAD

[JoyRenee]

Well it's lawful for them to do it since everyone voted for stem cell research. I didn't vote for it because I researched it. But all everyone ever heard about was the good stem cell research would do, for cures and all. Not everyone realized it was at the expense of dead babies.

[JoyRenee]

I totally meant it was lawful for them to use embryonic material. I wasn't referring to the company you just mentioned. I didn't hear about that.

[cindy82]

yea, thats all they tell you, the good, they dont tell you what it consist of, thats so sad

[LosingMyMindInGA]

I've seen diagrams and read about the types of abortion.  Which really really makes me sick to my stomach becuase I let my mom talk me into having one when I was 17.  Had I know THEN what I know NOW there is absolutely no way in HELL I would have gone through with it.  It makes me want to know throw up thinking about it.  It's just thoroughly disgusting and I do NOT see how ANY sane human being can perform such an act and still be able to sleep at night.  

When I first got pregnant I went to a "free" clinic here, which is actually a ministry.  Like Joy said, by law they have to present info on all options but they strongly try to encourage women to seek options away from abortion.  Last year was the first year they had ultrasound technology and they were able to save 65 babies from being aborted which was almost double from the year before w/o the u/s machine.  They have made it standard practice (so long as the woman consents) to do a urine test and if it's positive, they do the ultrasound to "verify" the pregnancy.  I didn't know this but my town doesn't have an abortion clinic within 2 hours of it in any direction that anyone at that clinic is aware of.  Anyone here who wants one has to drive to Atlanta.  I wish that I had more time and energy and knowledge to devote to trying to push the things I mentioned in my earlier post.  

[good2bhere]

Im so sorry about what happened with u dear...its not something u chose to do by urself...it just happened...Try not to go on a guilt trip cos that ll make u feel even worse...Just try to be more careful about getting pregnant until and unles u really want the baby to save yourself from guilt...takecare...

[JoyRenee]

You're a strong, woman, GA! I dont' condemn you or judge you for your past. And just think YOUR TESTIMONY could save lives... Honestly, sometimes God allows us to go through things to help us help others. Others who might not be as strong.

Your little one is waiting for you in Jesus' arms. I don't think they blame you or hate you or anything like that. They understand! And I'm so sorry you had to go through with that. I have to say I'm so glad you've been able to conceive again.

I just read a poem today (I went to Birthright today) and it was by a woman who had three abortions before she was 20. When she got pregnant after the three abortions, she miscarried. She could not describe the depth of her sorrow for what she had done. Finally she got pregnant again but her baby was born at 7 months (it didn't say whether they lived or died).

No one educated her at all on abortion. Girls don't have information. Just look at the people who wander on here with seemingly simple questions! I really hope Planned Parenthood is made to give mandatory ultrasounds.