I want to get married, boyfriend doesn't

I am 27 and my boyfriend is 34.  We have been together for 2.5yrs and have lived together for 2 yrs.  I love him very much and know that he is right for me.  He treats me like a queen.  Every morning we wake up he showers me with kisses and hugs, among the many other things he does and says that makes me know that he loves me dearly.  

Early in our relationship we used to joke about marriage sending mixed messages about how we eached really felt about marriage.  I know he has some complex feelings about marriage because so many in his family have failed.  But looking at the stats, there have been a lot of successful ones also.  My family has not been lucky in marriage either but for some reason I can look past that and see that we have something different and I am willing to give it my all to make it work.  

A couple months ago I brought up the topic and wanted to discuss it seriously with him but it ended in a big fight because he said he wasn't ready for marriage and didn't know if he ever would be.  After a lot of tears and almost breaking up he told me that he didn't know that I felt so strongly about it and that maybe in a few years he might be ready.   I have a lot of problems with this "resolution" because there is still so much uncertainty.  I didn't know if he just said that because he didn't want to loose me or if he really meant that he was going to think about it.  We still can't talk openly about the topic without him getting defensive, and God forbid we see anything wedding related on tv, he changes the chanel immediately. The deeper problem is that because of the doubt i have that maybe he just doesn't want to marry 'ME', I have now started to pull away from him emotionally.  I feel rejected.  I feel as though I can't talk to him openly anymore, so as to not push the issue and yet there are so many unresolved concerns that this may never happen and that I might just be waiting in vein.

I just don't understand.  Our lives are set up as a married couple as it is.  We share a house, bank accounts and every aspect of our lives together.  One could argue that if it aint broke don't fix it, but my arguement is that if it is so much like the real thing already then nothing should change if we make it official, so why not? He's got front row seats to what our lives would be like after marriage so why is he so scared? I don't need the big party and the rings and the dress and everything, in fact, I don't even want that.  I believe that marriage is a symbol of the committment two people make to each other that no matter what, they will try to work it out and be there for each other.  

Based on this, my only conclusion is that his reservations have a deeper meaning and I don't know how to get to the truth.

Should I wait around to see if he will stay true to his word and maybe in a few years we can move forward with our relationship or should I take the risk and start over with someone else, which might take just as long if not longer. Seems like I am stuck between a rock and a hard place since neither decision will be easy. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[mami1323]

I wish I could give advice but I'm in the same situation you are.  The only difference is I've been engaged for 3 years and we share a child already.  A lot of people will say "why should he buy the cow if he can get the milk for free" or "you put the cart before the horse" but you never think that you will never get there and when you keep putting it off because you don't want to argue, you always wonder if it will happen.  I guess this is just a decision that you will have to make on your own.  Do you really want someone to marry you because you pressure them?  Or can you be satisfied with how it is without the marriage license?  You should watch the movie he's just not that into you, I think it's really an eye opener.  If your bf is anything like Ben Afleck in that movie, than just go with it...lol.  Sorry, just had to give a little humor.  

[dmarie01]

Thanks for your comments.  I did watch that movie and that is what gave me the courage to initiate the conversation in the first place, hoping that it would end like Jen and Ben...happily ever after...unfortunately the reality is that it is just a movie and reality is rarely so easy.  

What scares me is that we have discussed kids (a much easier topic for him) and he is all for it.  I know if we have kids together then it will never happen and no matter how badly I also want kids I don't want to compromise myself that way.  

I have no regrets about living with my boyfriend before an engagement.  I have enjoyed every moment of it. I love coming home to cook for him, and doing our chores together, and arguing about our finances :)...which is why I KNOW I would enjoy being married to him.  I would never buy a car without a test drive...I would never buy a house without a thorough walk through, maybe 2 or 3...so why would I marry someone before living with them.  It's the best way to learn the ins and outs about a person...bad habits, the way they manage their finances, how they handle stress and anger.  If I could do it again I wouldn't change a thing.

[mami1323]

I totally agree with you on the living together before marriage.  Some may not but my bestfriend didn't live with her husband before they got married and 13 years later they are on their way to a divorce.  It would've been 14 years this October but they have been separated a year already.  Not that everyone's situation turns out like that but I believe that you get to really know someone when you have to live with them.  Sometimes you click and sometimes you don't.  

True, it is a movie and I don't think men like Ben exist in the real world...lol.

My fiance was the same, ready to have a child but marriage....yikes.  What bothered me the most was that he was so willing to ask me to marry him but yet, isn't as eager to get married.  So basically I have a commitment on my finger at all times, everyone knows I'm taken and he walks around without any symbol of commitment to me.  Bugs the heck out of me.  To the point where I'm about to buy him a ring just to put on his finger....lol.  If you can't compromise about the marriage issue you will feel like something is missing and at some point you will become resentful.  There will be no future there if that's the case.  I know I'm at that point.  Watching all my friends around me get engaged and married after I have been engaged before any of them.  Every show we watch is about weddings to and I can't help but get frustrated.  We've talked about it in counseling and he is just not ready yet.  He was married before and it ended badly but after 6 years with me, he should just know.  Especially after all I've put up with from him.  I guess if you feel like he will never give you what you need than perhaps its best to move on.  

[Lucey12]

Sweetie, I was with my man for 2.5 years when we got married. We had always talked about it though. The situation is different though. He is in the army and we knew he would be moving, his mom said you dont take that girl from her family without a ring. So he proposed before leaving, was gone for 3 months before I could go. We are now  happily married. My sister, has 2 kids from 2 dads. She was left on her a$$ as soon as she told guy #1 she was expecting. Guy #2 came in her life 6 years later. They have been together for over 3 years. They have a child together, have had 2 homes together (he did leave her for 5 months when she was pregnant but cam back before the birth, a$$hole) but when I got married, my sister brought marriage up to him again. He said he never wanted to get married. He said he wasnt ready for that commitment. They already have a home, and a child together, that is a bigger commitment than marriage if you ask me. The verdict: Guys are DUMB. Not all just most.

[mami1323]

Amen Lucey.

[dmarie01]

I know there is no guarantee in marriage.  However I just want to know that at the end of the day I can say that I tried.  We could live together for 15 more years and still end up falling out of love and maybe even hating each other, just as if we were married, but at least I can say I tried it.  Isn't that what our parents have always taught us, "you only fail when you fail to try".  And even if this one doesn't work out, I'll try again, because that's what I am looking for in life.  I'll just use it as life lesson to make better decisions the next time.

I have thought about counselling, at least to try to get to his inner most core and figure out what is holding him back...maybe if I understand it better I can live with not getting married and just living harmoniously with the one I love.  And maybe if he understands it better maybe he can come to terms with it and not be so scared.  But you make me worry knowing now that that did not work for you. Maybe when a guy's mind is made up it's made up and there is nothing you can do about it.  I never set out to try to change anybody. I always looked for the guy I wanted and accepted him for what he was and if he turned out any different then we went our seperate ways.  

I understand your frustration watching all your friends get engaged and married.  All my friends are just about married and all his friends are too.  So when we go out with them, I am the lonesome "forever girlfriend".  Doesn't make me feel too good about myself.  What did they do right that I am not doing ... that I just don't get?  What is worst is that one of my bestfriends who had a commitment fobia and could never date a guy for more than 3 months wihtout finding every reason to break it off is now engaged to be married in Novemeber 2010. Oh and she is the last of all my friends to get married. I am by no means trying to keep up with "The Jones" but when you see everyone around you going through the one thing you long for so much and knowing deep down that you deserve to have it too, it doesn't make you feel very good.

[dmarie01]

Lucie,

You are so right...despite what men may think they are not the most logical creatures on this planet.  My BF asked me to move in with him 1 month after we were together and then we bought a house together 5 months later.  Yet the concept of marriage escapes him.  He is eager to have kids, which is a lifetime committment to me and the kids. Whether we are together or not he'll always be their father. Yet the concept of marriage eludes him.  At least with marriage, you can say...oops I made a mistake, sorry! Once you make kids...they are here to stay, even if they decide to start a new family.  

[mami1323]

I couldn't say it better than if I was writing it myself.  I know how you feel and I still have hope that I will get my marriage.  I've basically taken the topic off the table and won't pressure him anymore.  I give it a year and if I haven't mentioned it or made him feel like it's at the forefront of my mind than I will see what happens.  If by then he finds some other excuse than I really don't know.  He was married before, he was pressured into it by his ex-wife.  She was pregnant and she gave him an ultimatum and it turned out to be the ugliest marriage ever.  They share a daughter and to this day, which is about almost 8 years since they were separated and divorced, they still hate each other.  He doesn't even speak with her and so I think his fears are that.  He wants to do it when he's ready to do it.  I just don't understand why he asked me in the first place if those were his feelings but hey I can't read his mind.  His mom and dad were never married and they had 4 kids together and than his dad left her for another woman and married that other woman.  They were together 18 years.  Same with his cousin.  She was with her fiance for 18 years, had 2 daughters and they split and he right away married the next woman.  So it scares me, that he will do the same.  I think for you, you should also perhaps take the issue off the table but keep a deadline in your head.  What's sufficient time for you before you start to talk about it again?  What are you willing to do if he still isn't ready?  Then you have to say, is this man and the love he gives me enough that I don't need the marriage?  Its all about what you are willing to put up with.  

[jo929]

I hate to rain on your parade, but i have seen many couples set up housekeeping together, and it will not last forever, one will eventually leave, and it is usually the man  i know i will get a lot of flack for saying this but,. from what i have seen of life, and it has been plenty, the man will respect you more, if you marry, as it is now one can walk out with no qualms, and why shoulnt they, there are no ties that bind you, you do not even get the benifit of saying your vows before God, and saying I DO, would you ladies not like to walk down the ailse with all of your friends and family there, and say your vows, if the man says he does not want to grt married then look out, also since you put the cart before the horse, and a child is there what will the child think, that this is the way of life if a man says no he does not want to marry leave, and if he loves you he will come after you, if he does not let him go he is not worth it  luck to all  jo

[Judy246]

It sounds as if you have the type of man that every woman wants and he chose you, so consider yourself very fortunate, but he definately is not ready to take the relationship to a higher level of commitment at the moment. You stated that, "Your lives are set up as married couples as it is", but the reality it's not when only one person views the arrangement that way. He is comfortable with his life just the way it is and he made it clear he is marriage phobic, don't wait for that ring to come anytime soon. Also, if he feel pressure by you on the topic of marriage, he is going to push away soon. At the right time approach him and ask him, "Where do you see our relationshp  in 5 yrs" and his response should be a decision factor for you, because you don't want to waste your youth on someone likes the comfort of the relationship, but not the commitment and responsiblities that come with marriage. Good luck

[fltricia]

I'm going through a similar situation, except for the fact that I asked my boyfriend to move out a few years ago.  We lived together for about 9 months and it was great, but I work from home so I need a break from time to time and I like to get out of the house.  We just celebrated our 4 year anniversary.   My boyfriend is a good man but he is says straight up he isn't ready for marriage and he isn't sure when he will be.  It's hard to hear that from someone you love.  Especially when they tell you they really love you and wish they were ready for those things.  But I don't want to pressure someone into marrying me and then they end up resenting me and we end in divorce.  That would really suck.  

[fltricia]

Since you are 27 I don't think you have the clock issues as much as say someone who is 35.   If you are happy and in love I would give it some time.  You already live together and share the bank account so it's only a formality at this point.

My boyfriend is a good companion and my best friend but we don't share those things like bank accounts and a houseand that is what scares me so much.  What if we are not compatible enough to share a bank account or live together.  

[dmarie01]

Hey if anyone out their is still following this thread just wanted to give an update and get some opinions on the decision I made.  

I finally sat him down to try to have a calm, rational discussion on the topic and for the most part we were succesful.  At one point he had told me that he wasn't ready and that if I loved him I would wait for him.  At the time I agreed, however after further consideration I realized I didn't know what I was waiting for and had no idea how long I was waiting.  So I tried to probe further to find out why he was so hesitant about the idea of us getting married.  Finally he told me that marriage scares him and he doesn't know if he even believes in it.  Later in the conversation he also mentioned that he's still not sure if we were meant to be together forever.  I guess that was the last straw for me because I figured that if he still wasn't sure, after living with me for 2.5yrs, then he would never be sure.  

As you can imagine I asked him to leave.  About a week ago we split up.  I felt so betrayed and so used.  I felt like he was just taking me for granted this whole time and had no intention of making me his wife.  I know I made the right decision but I just don't understand. How could he claim to love me so much but would rather me leave him than make a commitment to someone he was already committed to.  Why did he ask me to move in with him, and later agree to buy a house with me, and genuinely act so excited to see me at the end of the day and everyday that he woke up, and why would he shower me with kisses the way he did, how could we have so much in common and have so much fun together and share the same sense of humor and discuss politics so passionately....and he still not be sure if I was right for him.  

What could he possibly be looking for?

[dmarie01]

BTW, if there are any men reading these threads I would love to hear your perspective also.

[joshua883]

You have a loving partner by the sound of it and you both love each other dearly. "Are you willing to throw that away because he may not be ready for marriage'?
Marriage is a huge change and a life long commitment.
Your partner has had a rough upbringing by the sound of it and does not view marriage as something safe, something loving and secure.
You need to hold onto him and be patient. Relationships is about loving each other and helping each other grow and over come fears. And you need patience

[Judy246]

The answer is that he loved you, but was not "in" love with you and he is not ready for a commitment with you or with anyone else at this time. It hurts and it's unfair and your angry and I don't blame you. Right now it's important to take some personal quite time for you to reflect, think, but not to the point where it's going to debilitate you. Start by surrounding yourself with the people who do love you for you, your friends and family and a positive healthy environment is important right now, but you are going to be ok, you are a survivor and a strong woman. There is a great big beautiful world out there and within time, Mr. Wonderful is around the corner, thankful that you left him and can't wait to get to know you.  Rest, easy it's going to be ok one day at a time...Judy

[dmarie01]

Thank you so much for your comment.  I so badly want to believe that he loves me and is just scared to death of the idea of marriage vs. just not being "in love" with me. I can work with fear.  The fact that he said he still wasn't sure if we were meant to be together forever is the part that really drove me to make my decision.  I figured that after being with me for 2.5 yrs...day in and day out...he should at least be able to picture us being together for an extended period of time ...maybe even for life...married or unmarried.  This is the reason I had to break up with him.  I felt that he needed some space to truely make sense of his feelings for me.  If he comes back and decides that he loves me so much he can't be without me then I am willing to work with him on conquering his fears.  I just have to be sure that he wants me as much as I want him or else it's not going to work.  I have given myself 6 months to focus on my own self development and to see if he will come around at all and if he doesn't I am going shopping :o)

[mami1323]

Have you seen "he's just not that into you"?  I swear your situation sounds just like the one with Jennifer Aniston and Ben Affleck.  I think you have a wonderful man who wants to love you and give you what he wants to give you.  He may be that but you want more, and you will never be satisfied if he doesn't give you the total package.  The fact that he said he wasn't sure if you would be together forever I think was the deal breaker.  If he had said, I don't believe in marriage but I know I want to be with you forever, I just don't like the idea of marriage but I will still follow the same commitments and treat you like you are my "wife"....well than I think you would've given him that time.  You made the best decision for yourself.  You are truly strong let me tell you.  I give you credit.  I agree, focus on your goals and wants and if he is meant to be with you he will come back.

[KJL26]

Good Afternoon--  I am so glad to come across your post.  I was with my ex-boyfriend for 3 years, lived with him for 2.  He told me all the time he loved me and cared and so on.  The few times I ever did bring up marriage, he skirted around the issue with some excuse.  One morning, he got extremely furious with me and I finally had enough.  I called in sick to work, packed my stuff and left.  As I was packing, he came home and goes "What the hell are you doing?"  I said "I am leaving"  He just shrugged his shoulders and said "You'll be back."  
Needless to say, I thought I would at first.  Then, I asked him about us.  He then informed me that he never really was "in" love with and that he had no intentions of ever marrying me.  After about 2 weeks, he called and apologized like crazy, telling me he was just upset and angry and he knew that if he said those things, it would hurt me.  And it did hurt me, enough to say to myself, " I deserve better than this."
2 weeks later, very randomly, met the guy of my dreams.  He tells me I am beautiful everyday, wants to discuss marriage and children, and knows me better than my ex ever cared to find out.  
You are right, IF it is meant to be, he will come back and try to work out a compromise to make you happy. ( as well as himself.)  If it isn't, then you will move on and find yourself and someone who treats you like you deserve.....I never thought I would want anyone else, and boy, I was wrong.   Best of luck to you and your happiness.

[PennyDreadful]

This stuff is so hard. I've been with my boyfriend for 10 and a half years and have lived together for 6 of these. I love him and he loves me and I've never once in a million years doubted this. We've been great and happy and all kinds of wonderful.......until the marriage issue raised its head.

About two years ago I began to feel a need to get married, to make that ultimate commitment to him but despite promises to do it (a few times)  this July when we were finally to get engaged he told me that he thought he didn't ever want to have kids. I'm not sure if I do but I certainly want the option. To cut a long story short, I suggested counselling and he agreed. We went to a great counsellor about 3 months and then he told me that yes, he was ready for it all, marriage and the possibility of kids.

You'd think this was everything I wanted to hear but it just didn't feel right and his behaviour since has been very telling. Rather than have any sense of excitment about our future or have any desire to plan anything (and I'm not a big bells and whistles kind of girl when it comes to weddings) he seemed to be avoiding it and me by going out with his friends and coming home late etc.
Last night I told him that I was having problems with this, that I was unsure about our future if we were basing it on how we have been of late. I told him that I loved him and never doubted that he loves me and in the end he admitted that yes he was agreeing to get married only because he was scared of losing me.
Now I don't know what to do ultimately. My head and being sensible tells me that I should let him go, that love is about letting people go. My heart on the other hand feels like its been pulled apart. He is by best friend and my partner and he "gets me" like no one else ever has. I don't want to get married to someone who has to I want to get married to someone who wants to.
Whoever said love hurts was right on the money.

[specialmom]

I had the honor and privilage of being a clinical psychologist for many many years.  I heard the stories of many people's lives and realized that all people are different and ultimately desire to feel loved and happy.  How people get there is different.  Marriage says that even during the tough spells, I am legally bound to you and I will try to work it out.  Living together makes the leaving part much easier.  Relationships are very hard to sustain, we all know that.  Those afraid of marriage leave that door open for themselves.  That is the reality.  This may be okay for some.  If someone is pushing for marriage with someone less inclined, down the road problems can surface.  The one who pushed often questions the love of the other.  That can be tough to live like that.  As I counseled women in the same situation as many of you fine ladies, I had something in the back of my mind.  It wasn't something from my schooling but instead something my older sister told me once.  She said, marry a man who loves you slightly more than you love him.  Now I wouldn't go that far----  but I wanted to tell these ladies that they DESERVED a man that would be excited to tie their life permanently to them.  With that being said, no one has the answer to what makes someone else happy.  Find the path for your own contentment but DO listen to your inner voice.  If it is telling you something is just not right----  don't ignore it.  Good luck to all of you!!

[Lola2411]

Wow. reading your question and all these posts is like reading my own life. i'm going through something very similar to you. I'm obviously searching the web to find some kind of answers. first, i know its been a few months since you posted that you and your boyfriend broke up----i'd like to know how all that is going. are you two back together? have things changed? your story interests me. I would love to hear where you are with this in your life.
I've been with my boyfriend for 2.5 years---living together for 6 months and its not going well. it hasn't been going well for a while. i know in my heart of hearts I am a relationship/marriage kind of girl. There is no question in me the importance of that in my life & what that means to me. for the first year of our relationship i didn't really say anything about marriage, barely said I love you. i made it a point to be so carefree & not pushy thinking that it would make him want it. well, i couldn't have done that more wrong. once i finally said something about us getting married & where are we going its been downhill ever since. i know i'm not pressuring him---heck, we've never even been in a jewelry store, but he'd tell you otherwise. what stinks is that ALL of his friends (& mine) are married or getting married this summer.....some are now moving on to children. & I feel we are sitting in the same exact place we were. it crushes me. i feel like me & you are exactly the same on this. its so hard to watch everyone else go down the road you felt you were meant to go down. & not only do you have to go to these wedding & showers, but you have to do it with a huge smile on your face & pretend that it doesn't hurt you at all. he says that his intentions are to marry me however he can't promise me anything. he says that he does want to get married & have a family. he also says that it also scares him so much its hard to move forward. he is a self proclaimed commitment phobe---i'm his only relationship over 3 months & we are turning 28 this year. he has been going to counseling for a while for his issues. i know plenty of people that say i'm still young & there is nothing to worry about but thats not the way i'm feeling. i'm feeling like i'm the one being blamed for ruining this relationship when in reality i just want it to be better. i'm not looking at marriage as an end result or a solution to anything, its a journey... a journey i feel that i'm ready to make. having children is so important to me & i'm afraid i'm going to spend those precious years of my life waiting on someone. & of course me talking about it at all just pushes him away. so like you, I withdraw & pull away. i guess at the end of the day i'm totally struggling with --- "how do i ease off the marriage thing & be ok with it all being on his terms?" how do i stay completely happy & in love with someone that i feel is putting me off? how do i attend weddings & showers & not feel like there is something wrong with me because nobody is excited to do that with me? I don't know how to stay close with someone that makes me feel like i'm not good enough when i know damn well i am. he says that if i could just ease off it & just have fun in the present that it would happen-of course still no garauntees when, it could be another 5 years for all i know. he thinks i'm not empathetic because I'm not sensitive to his fears.  i understand him & his fears, i'm not saying he's wrong but i can't say that i'm ok with them. i feel like if i say ok then why would he ever have to go forward? any help or thoughts are greatly appreciated :)

[MX_GIRL]

Girls, I´m in a similar situation. I´m 26 and my BF is 31; we´ve been together for 9 months.  At first (during the first month or two), he was extremely pushy about marriage and kids stuff.  He always spoke about it (names of our kids, decoration of our house, financial issues). Once, he told me that he was only waiting for us to be together for 6 months to be sure that we were meant to be and then we could get married (I assumed that he intended to get engaged in month 6 if everything went well), and that he wanted to have kids in 2 or 3 years at the most.  We spent Xmas with his family and New Year with mine.  He is extremely nice, tender and caring with me, treats me like a princess, we never fight, have lots of fun together, we spend a lot of time with each others families and friends, etc. but the problem is that since month 2 he stopped talking about marriage and kids. About a month ago a spoke with him about that and he told me that he has the same intention (which I think is not entirely true because we are in month 9 and nothing hsa happened), but that he is a bit afraid and he is not very expressive; he told me that he was expressive at first because he was trying to change that but unconciously ended up being inexpressive, as he has always been.  Since I spoke with him, he has been particularly caring and loving, I know he loves me and he is a great man.  I also know 9 months may be a short time and I might seem obssesive but I don´t want to realize in 3 years that i have lost my time with a commitment phobe.  I completely agree with specialmom when she says that we DESERVE a man that would be excited to tie their life permanently to us.  I set a deadline in my mind.  I will wait until November 30 without being pushy or making any comment.  If nothing happens I will let him go.

[SamJ1123]

If he isn't ready to commit now, he probably will never be.  It's the hard truth, but nevertheless, it's the truth.  They say a man knows within the first six months to a year whether he wants to marry a woman... not that he has to propose within that time, but he will at least know for sure.  If your guy is uncertain after 2.5 years, than he'll probably never be ready to marry you.  I was in a similar situation, but I was with my guy for SIX years... now imagine that could happen to you... you know how much more complicated things get after six years together?  That's six holidays, six birthday's each, etc.  It's REALLY hard to break it off after all those years.  But my guy told me the same thing... "I don't know if I'm ready yet..."  Blah blah blah... Finally, like you, I began asking myself whether it was because he didn't want to marry ME... Well guess what?  Once I finally proposed that question to him, he began thinking the same thing... and six months later, he moved out and is now in a relationship with someone else... How crazy is that?  I always heard that story:  a couple is in a relationship for years, while one person won't commit... they finally break it off, and the person unwilling to commit meets someone else and marries them within a short time.  I was always TERRIFIED that that would be my life... I tried to make excuses for why we were "different", but wow... that actually happened... my man isn't engaged to this woman yet, but the fact that he jumped so quickly after being hesitant with me speaks volumes.

Bottom line... end it now before you're six years deep like me...

Best of luck... message me if you ever want to talk... I've been there!

[Kr0410]

I am in a similar situation. I have been with my boyfriend for 3 years and we don't live together. I have an 8 year old daughter from a previous marriage. My boyfriend just graduated from college and is looking for a job. I spent the last 3 years being his rock while he was going through school. Now that he has graduated he said he wanted to save money for a year and then move in with me. So now that will be 4 years together and just moving in. When we first got together I said that i didn't want to ever get married again. I gave examples of goldie hawn and Kurt russell. Well I didn't think I would ever be in love with someone so much that I would want to spend the rest of my life with them and now i have and my thoughts have changed. When i brought this up to him he said marriage is just a piece of paper, we don't need the government to define our marriage. It really upsets me that he feels that way. I don't think he would change his mind on this because he feels very strong about it. I am not going to try to change his mind. I have been questioning our relationship and if it is even worth it to wait around for him to move in if we are never going to get married? I feel like I am waiting on him for my life to start. I waited for him to get out of school, I'm waiting for him to move in, I'm waiting for him to want to marry me and is it worth it? We do have a great relationship and we are right for each other so should this one thing be a deal breaker or should I just give in and forget about getting a married to him? He is fine with having children when the time is right (his time of course) but I'm not going to have a child when I'm 35 and he is 40 and at the rate we are going that's what it seems like it will be.

[teko]

One thing is for sure and that is that life has no gaurantees. My guess is that if your man is not open to marriage after all this time, nothing is going to change that short of losing the relationship and then he will resent that. If you are involving children, I think marriage is a good thing for them and their well being. If no children are involved, its more a matter of compatability on your views about it. I am still of the thought that if a man doesnt put me first enuff to go for the forever after thing, he simply isnt sure of his love for me. And to me, that tells the tale and I would be moving on for what I wanted and someone who felt like me. In other words, do what makes you happy and dont do it if it is not what you want, or you will be the one with the resentment down the road.

[sweetpea03]

This thread is old.... BUT for anyone reading. When you live with someone and are not on the same page for getting married later on, the guy has no reason to ever marry you. "Why buy the cow when the milk is free" sort of thing. He already gets everything he would as if he were married, it's just not formalized. Don't move in with someone unless you are fine with just living together.

[brice1967]

I think you can have the commitment without the ceremony.  I had a cousin who he and his significant other had been together since high school, and as he put it... "we just never got around to it".  Unfortunately, she passed on but they had better than 30 wonderful years together.  And the thing is, everyone in the dang family thought they were married.  

The only difference was they didn't have it on paper.

I'd suggest that marriage is not for everyone, and I don't think you can really sell this guy short on his intentions.  If this really is this important to you, I'd suggest you have another real good, civil sit down conversation with him.  Completely explain the importance to you, and the significance of being married and what that means to you.  Suggest that you can see a counselor together to perhaps work through any barriers (if there are any) together.

The unfortunate side of being married is that marriages don't always last.  This can be for any number of reasons, and the same reasons are responsible for the demise of other relationships (those outside of marriage) as well.

Bottom line is, you want to tie the knot and he is reluctant.  What needs to happen is that you both need to get to the root cause of him not wanting to get married.  You then try to work through it.  It may work.... it may not.  The most important thing I think is that you address this together, and completely.  At the end of the day, at least everyone knows where you folks stand.

Good luck to you.

[tyijha1]

i'm in the same place u are but my boyfriend and i been together 5 yrs and messing with each for 9 yrs. We have 3 beautiful children  ages, 2, 7, and 9. He blow me off by not saying anything or changing the subject. he say he want to get married but he's action tell me different... i want to leave because my mind telling me he really don't want to get married... and my heart telling me to stay... but Good luck to u and ur boyfriend

[angrybetafemale]

This thread makes me angry. I'm in a similar situation. I'm 30, my boyfriend is 28. I've had health problems. He says the health problems don't change his view of me. Maybe this is bunk.

If marriage didn't exist, my relationship would be perfect. No two people more right for each other. Yadda yadda. I'm not going to get into the details.

What makes me angry about this is how many of you women I see being exceptionally cool about the whole deal. You know what you want -- committment. You want long term stability. You're not necessarily pressing kids or wealth or a big frou frou ceremony. You're just wanting to know this person thinks you're worth it. Otherwise, why continue? You're trying to balance self respect with your need for companionship. Women are amazing at knowing what their needs are. Guys suck at it. Guys can't analyze themselves worth a damn, and women do it all the time. Society, which was built by men and in their image, considers this skill at self analysis "neurotic." They train us to call it "brain chatter." We are supposed to train ourselves not to want what we want in order to be happy in life.

THIS IS GARBAGE. Men get whatever the god damned hell they want. Their minds are quiet during the day and they can get things done. They get all the money, power, and success in the world and women get ****. We just sit around waiting for some guy to propose, trying to make the best and coolest compromise possible. Men won't compromise.

So what gives, men? Why won't you get married? What's your deal? For those of you already living with your girlfriends, for those of you who already have kids with a woman, for those of you who are engaged, FINISH THE JOB. I don't understand this one-foot-in and one-foot-out approach to relationships and I would like it explained to me. The cool, amazing woman in your life is doing her best to compromise what she really wants so you can each have some of what you want. She's trying to equalize the balance of power, not *****-whip you. How about in exchange for proclaiming your love for her, she gives up the froufrou party and the expensive ring? Maybe instead of an overpriced, overhyped piece of jewelry, you both go and make an investment together that will benefit both of you in the future? We women aren't whiny biddies trying to rope you down. We're trying to equalize the balance of power, end the stupid love games, and get real. DO YOU LOVE HER OR NOT???? And really, is this whole marriage phobia some kind of macho thing? Or is it rooted in you thinking that just as soon as you tie the knot, some better piece of *** will come along? Do you really think you're that great of a catch?

I have had it with games and the exploitation of gender differences. I'm tired of women and men being enemies where men are trying as hard as possible to get a lot of sex and a woman is trying as hard as possible to rope a man down and make babies. NEITHER OF THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE. They are extreme ideals that are used by popular culture against both genders to keep the war going. Both men and women need to stop listening to it and I see that a lot of these women on this thread are trying really hard to stop listening to it.

But our hearts want know we are loved. That's all. What's your deal, men? **** or get off the pot. We're all tired of your BS.

[specialmom]

This is an old thread beta and um . . . I can see how you came up with your user name.  Especially the angry part.

I think people actually do marry for different reasons and it is hard to put all men and all women in a nice neat box for why they do what they do.

Some women are as scared as men to march down the aisle.  

I know that I would not stay with someone indefinately that didn't ask me to marry him.  Because to me it is a statement.  Living together as married--------- well, it really isn't because the couple never made the "statement".  

So when a woman stays, she must ask herself why?  Then the question comes back around----------  both parties have a hand in the relationship they have-------- so What's the deal?

[kn964]

Wow. [pause] Cool. [pause]. It is good to hear someone saying this out loud. [pause] I had not thought of it like that - but now that you said it, I think you are right.

I have been a bit like everyone else here. Great partner; I was never that fussed about marriage; but then over time the formal parts of commitment have began to feel (for some unexplained reason) more and more important to me.

I used to be the commitment phobe. I have broken up three 3-8 year relationships because in the end I could never make myself to marry the person. And I do think I was always 'stringing' them along. Not deliberately, but just because I did not really know what I wanted. I thought I loved them but I obviously did not - not in the way they loved me and not in the way I love my current partner.

So I have been at the receiving end of it now. And thus have been trying to be understanding. Also, I keep thinking "I always said that marriage is ******** - why I am now so obsessed about it when everything else is fine??".

Angrybetafemale, you got it right when you said "You're just wanting to know this person thinks you're worth it." That is exactly it. I want us to write the mutual wills, change the life insurances to each others (instead of  our siblings') names; etc. Not because I want the wedding, the money or any of that - but because I want to know that he thinks I am so important to him that he wants to do those things - because he wants to make sure I will be ok.

Maybe it is a sad state of affairs that we need those external things to be convinced. But having been on the dark side myself, I think it is easy to fool (even yourself) on all other things - but it is hard to pretend when it comes to marriage. And maybe that is why it is the ultimate test.

Thanks for your rant. And good luck for everyone.

[suquamish]

I am. 27 year old and have a child with my boyfriend we have known each other for the past 12 years and have been off and on but now we are more mature and serious than ever. He works and provides everything for us I am finishing up my psychology degree and a stay at home mother. He always talked about marrying me and was talking about it a lot at one point, his father has just recently passed and now his whole view has changed he wants to just keep things how they are bc his parents divorced my parents divorced and bc of the society we live in and heath insurance reasons he wants to not get married he says its just a piece of paper but I can't help but feel like he is just making excuses.  I feel like I am not good enough, that he is waiting till he finds better, that something is wrong w me. Now I don't know how to feel I am dissappointed and feel crushed,rejected, but I can't let him know that bc I don't want a forced marriage out of sympathy.  I want to feel special I want to have that one day I want to have someone commit to me I don't want money or diamonds or anything extravagant I just want him to love me and for us to make that vow to each other forever- :0(

[specialmom]

Hm.  Well, I'm sorry he is going through a difficult time and would say that his grieving for  his father may be contributing to his current emotional state.  And in that emotional state, he is questioning lots of things in his life.  This is not unusual  As he must be young, his father was probably not too old as well and this makes one think about their own mortality and what they want to do with their future.  

But . . . big but here . . . you two made a child together.  All of his talk of why he doesn't want to marry is now an excuse and cruel to his child.  And all of your talk that you want to feel special, etc. is also not helpful.  You two made a child together and now it is time to think of her.  I'd force it and if he says he won't marry you, I'd have a big problem with it.  Marriage is MUCH more than a piece of paper------------ it is making a committment  before friends, family and God that you  will stay with that person, honor and respect them.  Forever.

If he is not willing to do this----------- then yes.  He leaves a door open to leave you.  On purpose.  And I couldn't stay with a man-------- father of my child that had that attitude.  

So, I'd give him a bit more time to grieve and a chance to rethink his current stance and then I'd expect him to marry you.  I always think it is easier to feel special about marriage before a baby is made----------  now you will always wonder about that.  But remember, you ARE special as the mother of his child.  I wish you luck and really hope this works out for you!!  Peace!

[kmrkmr]

I understand your feeings but sometime feelings get int he way of being reasonable. You said you didn't know what you were waiting for. Someone you love and ,males you happy is worth waiting for. You and someone ending your realtionship but you "didnt know what you were waiting for". Happiness is happiness and why give that up. As people we can't predict other people or what will happen and that is scarey, thats why marriage is scarey. You cant predict how you will feel in years ahead of you, and neither can anyone else. But we are alive and living right now, so why not be happy for right now, who cares about a lifetime conract. I know if i found the dream job i've been waiting for, the anticipation of getting that is usually far more greater than having the pressures that come with getting it.That may be taken in may ways but everything is more fun while you still enjoy it and especially when you on your own without pressure made the choice to pursure it.

[specialmom]

Old thread alert.  Old thread alert.

[molefreckle]

hi i am new to this website.. ran across your post.. i have read many of the responses ... i am glad to see you did communicate with your bf.. that is everything.. he loves you obviously and if you love him like you say you do.. just take it day by day... if it is meant to be it will be... i would not push the issue on marriage to much.. he may just surprise you one day it may be tomorrow. a month from now or maybe even a cpl of yrs.. you never know.. and if you are both happy now just enjoy it.. i know it is oh so hard believe me.. I  am in a relationship with a great guy.. we both have been married and divorced and he said he would NEVER marry again.. he also said he would never tell another woman he loved them and would never have another woman move in with him. Guess what he told me he loved me and me any 2 children have moved in with him.. My point is dont give up and just enjoy what you 2 have now.. My bf has only told me and his ex wife the L word... I never thought i would hear it from this mans lips and I did....just let things happen and always communicate with your bf that is the most important thing..I so want to marry my bf so i know how you feel. and he told me he would never marry again but i still love him and want to be with him.. I am grateful i have him in my life and i dont want to be without him so I am content that he loves me and wants me in his life and I cherish every single day, minute and sec I spend with him. Enjoy your bf and just let things happen he may surprise you. =) take care and best of luck

[specialmom]

Hi and welcome to med help.  Hey-------------- this is a really old thread.  I encourage you to post your own question as posting at the bottom of an old thread often gets missed.  

[gdusher]

Im a 27yo guy who has been with my gf now for 4 years. I know she loves me dearly and I love her too. We met when I was working abroad in Japan but now I am in the UK and she is still there. She is a Japanese local. Therefore I find myself confronted with this constant issue of what to do. She wants to get married but I don't see any reason to do that apart from to try to get her a UK passport. I told her that love should be like a butterfly in your hand (excuse the cheese!). I picture that she is a butterfly and she chooses to rest on my hand. If I was to close my hand around her she would resist and try to escape and it works both ways. Why set constraints on anything. Absolutes are a stress in life that are not necessary. How on earth could I possibly know if I will stay with this girl forever. Yes currently its all good but I feel like I would be slightly insane to assume that life doesn't evolve and change so why lock yourself to an absolute. Would you sign a contract at work to say that 'yes I love this job and I will remain here until the end of days?' No way would you do this, and therefore in my opinion it is best to love and cherish every part of your life including your partner and let things flow onwards as they need to. If it is a one night stand, a short term relationship or long term love then let them be what they will be. Let go of the need to control.

Why does a woman want to get married? Is it because she feels this will validate that she is wanted? In this case it is an insecurity that is not necessary to hold. There are millions of guys that you could cherish time with. Love each moment and see how it evolves. Appreciate it for what it is. Life is so wonderful if you can be like the english willow and bend in the breeze and not snap because you are dealing in absolutes. I know its different for women especially when in the back of their minds they are worried about their 'clock' but if a guy is with you and demonstrates that he loves you daily and wants to have kids and protect you then why on earth would a contract mean anything?! Marriage was so much more necessary in the past when people needed 2 incomes to live and literally defend each other. Yet now you are living in the free est society where women can earn and do what they want just like men. It just feels obsolete and for a time when absolutes where truly needed.

Wow what a rant! I hope this makes sense, and believe me I love women and I love my girlfriend but whenever she mentions marriage I just literally cannot find a way to believe it to be a sane thing for me to do.

[sammylonglegs]

to compare your girl-friend to a job is just silly!  Maybe your just that into her otherwise you'd want her here with you (especially after going out with her for years).  I suppose you're getting the best of both worlds this way though!  But beware, she's miles away and with no sign of long term committment frome you, someone who will give it to her may come along.  As Bayonce says'If you like it, then you should have put a ring on it' ha.  good luck to everyone with Love and LIfe xxx

[Rubia1]

I am 22 years old.  I have been with my boyfriend for 2 years and 7 months, living together for 8 months.  For the past week or so I have been talking to my boyfriend about marriage.  I feel I am ready to make the commitment.  As many ladies on this thread have mentioned, we already live together and share many things, what would the difference be??  He seems frantic.  He is also 22, never been married either and we do not have any children.  When I first brought the topic up, he immediately claimed he did not believe in marriage, he did not see the purpose of signing a piece of paper just to prove his love for me, he didn't see the point of wasting money on a wedding, blah blah blah.  I have told him many times that I DO NOT want a huge, fancy party, $5,000 rings, or even a marriage by church if he did not like the idea.  I just want to make this relationship OFICIAL.  Is there something wrong with that?   After much debate on the topic, now is no longer saying that he does not believe in marriage, he is saying that he simply does not have the money.  I told him I am willing to help him, and that I never expected him to take the full load by himself.  I have never expected this from my man.  I take the lead most of the time with many issues.  I just don't understand why he would not want to marry me if he really loves me and we already live together??? Ughhh this is soooo frustrating!!!!!!

[missyj128]

Wow.  I am so confused.  I am 29.  He is 35.  We have been together 9 years.  Yes, 9.  He is so wonderful.  We fight maybe once a year or two.  We are both so happy with each other, we make each other whole.  I can't explain how after almost a decade he lights up every single day I am with him.  For years we have owned a house together, joint checking, all of that.  We do not have kids.  Neither of us want children, and because of health reasons as well, I have made the permanent decision.
I am a professional. College degree, great career, etc.  I am a person of myself, and always say I come home every night because I want to, not because I feel I have to-referring to why we are not married.

**It's just getting to the point I wish he wasn't so perfect for me.**

We have discussed marriage for the last 8 years.  He always says he wants to, but there is always some excuse.  He's used about every one in the book
We both come from strong families, no divorces.  It's not like either of us think negatively of marriage.
About a month ago my mom asked if I wanted her to take my promise ring (lol) in to get resized-she was doing the same with her wedding rings.  They are a little tight now after 8 years.  I thought for a moment that maybe he was trying to get my ring size.  That was a fleeting moment.  I laughed at myself for even thinking that.
I hope.  I wish.
Every girl dreams of her wedding day.  I want the dress, the dance, my dad to walk me down the aisle.
We talked about it earlier this year, very seriously.  We decided labor day weekend-even though I still didn't have a ring.  I told my friends and family and even went looking for dresses.
June he told me he wouldn't be able to get the time off work.  
In every other aspect, I completely trust him-he has never given me a reason not to.  
Is he just leading me on?  I know he loves me and it would absolutely kill him if I left.  
But I want that ultimate committment.  We have lived like we are married for about 7 years.  Some friends laugh saying they forgot, they thought we were married.
I listen to love songs, country songs like 'When I said I do'.  
I realize I will never have that.  It kills me.
What do I do?  I can't imagine my life without him, but I feel like I will never truely have him either.
Whenever I bring it up, he says he wants to marry me, he wants me to be his wife.  I believed that for so many years.  'fool me once, shame on you.  fool me twice, shame on me'
Why is he doing this?  He is truthful and upfront about everything else.  I need to know.
Both of us coming from parents who are still married-it is something we don't take lightly.  We have friends who have been married, divorced, and married again tell us they are very jealous of the relationship we have.  We are best friends.  It is such a huge dream of mine though, it is so important to me.  Why should I have to sacrifice that? I really don't know what to do.  I am so confused.

[chico101]

I broke up with my bf, because he didn't make committment, then he came back to tell me that he would marry me. But now i don't feel happy because I don't think he really wants to, he just didn't want to lose me. but i really want to get married, again. My first marriage failed. at age 45, i want to have a home, a husband, i like the committment.

[specialmom]

Hi,  first, let me say that you may get more responses if you post your own question.  This is an old post and they can be overlooked when a question is tagged onto the end.

Well, I'm sorry this is distressing you.  You've been together a long time and I have no answer for why he has decided not to marry you.  My only thought is that you've set up house LIKE a married couple so he may feel it isn't necessary.  Why bother, he may think, since you are already living as a married couple.

However, this is insensitive to your needs and actually a bit selfish.  I think it is wrong to keep a woman you live with like your wife from actually being one when she desires to be.  If you were fine with your current status, that would be one thing but since you are not-------------- your boyfriend needs to take some action or you do.

I think it is fair to sit him down and tell him how much a wedding would mean to you.  Talk about the emotional impact it has on you for him to NOT do it and that taking this step signifies something very important to you.  If he still puts it off, I'm sorry--------  I would leave him.  At that point, something is wrong with this picture and him for him to deny you the gift of being his wife.  

Good luck.

[Heartbroken2284]

I would like to start by saying, how helpful and insightful this forum has been for me.  Having read through the contributions, it seems there are, sadly, lots of very similar stories to my own.

I am a 27 year old woman who in the last two days decided to walk away from a relationship and a man who I love more than any other man I have ever met.  

This man has been the love of my life from the moment we met, and from that moment I was sure that I would never love anyone more than him.  He is 34 years old and we have been together for 6 years, with a number of very painful break ups along the way.  Over the last 6yrs we have grown up together and shared so much of our lives with one another.   Whilst we have been very close, we have spent much of our relationship apart, as I was often studying in other parts of the country whilst at University etc. Whilst this put a strain on our relationship, there were other problems, which were evident as, we kept breaking up for various reasons.  

Four years ago, my boyfriend had a massive bike accident, from which he spent nine months in hospital recovering.  Since the accident he has returned to work and is now almost fully recovered, however his injuries have had a great impact on his quality of life.  My boyfriend is a wonderful man with so many lovely characteristics, but he is not the most outgoing individual and his accident made him very miserable and even less willing to do very much with me.  Whilst I made a great effort to reassure him that he would be ok, his lack of interest in life effected how we were together and we slowly grew apart.  

Unfortunately, he broke up with me again two years later, as I was miserable and sought support in another man which led to a very short affair.   This had a massive effect on how we felt about one another, and most importantly destroyed his trust in me.  The affair also highlighted the cracks which had always been a problem in our relationship and showed me how much happier I could be in another relationship.

I was distraught about yet another break up but as time went on I slowly gathered the strength to move on from our relationship, something I had grown accustomed to since we had broken up three time previously.  However, my love for him had never dwindled regardless of our break ups and I struggled to move into another relationship, as no one I met compared to him and the love I felt for him.  

As he had often done before, nine months after the break up, he called me and we talked and he asked if we could get back together.  This was hard for me, as I had tried so desperately to get over him and now here he was again, the love of my life!  Against my better judgement (knowing that we had so many problems and were probably not the best suited couple) we got back together and for a short while we were completely head over heels in love again.  After six years and with so many break ups and upset, I was sure that this would be the last time and that we would make it work, because we clearly couldn't live without one another and had a very strong bond with each other.  Knowing this, I also felt that it was very important if we cared so strongly for each other to make some sort of real commitment, so that we knew that we were strong enough for one another to make our relationship work.

However, over the last few months our relationship has been breaking down once more. We are currently living apart; as I am studying to become a teacher ad he has a full time job in Kent.  The distance hasn't helped as we have both struggled to find the time and finances to visit one another but of late he has seemed less inclined to make the effort to see me and this has fuelled rows and arguments about our commitment to one another.  I have of course been very worried about his sudden decline in affection and love since he was showing me so much of this when we first got back together.  This lack of affection led me to become more and more desperate and dependent, and led to me asking if he still cared and loved me in a way that I had never done before.  This constant questioning must have seemed so unattractive but I have been so fearful of losing him again and became very tearful on many different occasions.  

When I questioned him about why he had suddenly stopped being affectionate with me, he answered by saying that he only did this to make me happy and that it wasn't really what he wanted to do, as it didn't really make him happy having to be affectionate when I needed him to be.  When I also explained that I needed some sort of discussion about the future he declined to talk and explained that he didn't want to talk about marriage for at least five more years because he didn't know what he wanted out of life anymore.  This scared me a lot because he had tried so hard to get me back and now didn't know what he wanted at all!  It also scared me, not because I wanted a wedding but because I wanted to know that he felt I was important enough to him that he wanted to talk about a future with me, a future that would secure our relationship and settle my insecurities about our relationship working and in order to feel secure and content that we are able to move past all the problems we have had and make a solid and real future for ourselves.

Whilst, he says he does not know what he wants, he does say that he loves me and wants all those things with me and me alone but he still can't talk about a future properly and I feel as though I have a clock that is ticking and I can't afford to wait for something that may never happen.  Whilst, at the same time I really don't want to pressure him or become one of those women who end up pushing so hard that their partner proposes out of guilt and stress and not out of love or desire, as this takes all of the romance and love out of the relationship.

I have walked away because I feel that he hasn't given me any other choice but I am still completely in love with him and would have done anything to make our relationship work but I can't if he doesn't even know what he wants because this makes me feel like what he is really saying is that he doesn't want me but can't actually say it, but this begs the question why did he try so hard to get me back in the first place.  I feel so sad and empty and I need advice from people who understand my situation.  Have I made the right decision, as I'm going out of my mind?

[teko]

Frankly, if the fear of marriage consumes him moreso than the fear of losing the perfect partner in life, maybe you are not that perfect partner? Which is more important to him? If you were going to move on because there is no future in this relationship, would he re consider? No? Then your wasting your time and if you choose to say, deal with the reality of it all and if that is not enuff for you, leave.

[Fupwoman]

Right thing to do, i am in similar situation. And am leaving my partner by next week. I read the thread and it opened my eyes, the movie thing, hs is not into you and the way I interpreted him. I am keeping my self respect and leaving him. I was engaged to him and he told me he got engage because he was pushed into this, and no plans of marriage.
Well if that is it, I better be alone and waiting for the right person then wasting my time, I already spend 6 years of my life and now 35 years old.What a pittty! I am sad, he is letting me go, while he cried and said he did not want it , but not willing to marry me. Wow- all of his friends got married in less than a year and us- deadlock. I felt this guy was perfect for me so I blocked out all the signals that he does not think me that important to marry me but just want to live like partners... No way. I havve made my mind to leave him and am planning to go to see my sister in CA as this break up is heart breaking and stressful for me. I dont want it but I will do it - Because I know, I dont deserve this - I deserve better. May be I will not get anyone else, but I dont mind it at least I will have genuine hope that one day I will find that right man- there is plenty of fish there-

[doubtfire999]

I have read every bit of this discussion and to be honest it has been very helpful.
I have a similar problem.My bf and I been dating for 1.5 yrs.I am 24 and he is 4 years elder to me.I definitely see myself married in 2 years max.I know i need that social commitment.My bf has always maintained he has loved me but has never been sure about commitment.2 months back i gave him an ultimatum to make a decision as to if he sees a future with me or not.I am not asking him to marry me today but in 2 years,yes.I can give him time.But a week back he made his decision and told me that he wants me to be with me forever but cannot get married.Says he does not believe in the institution of marriage or giving a formal name.He also said that maybe at 35-40  he might want to marry me but right now he is not mentally prepapred.He said it is just not to me but he will never marry.Though i refuse to believe that.Maybe he does not love me enough to take the risk of giving his whole life to me.He also said what if we get bored of seeing each other 24 hours and does not want to risk that as he likes what we have.I have given this relationship my 200% and adjusted to everything he has done,good or bad.But even after all that he is not sure if he can give me a formal commitment.

My problem is i love him too much but i know if i stay ,again tomorrow this problem will crop up.What should i do?should i wait that one day he'll realise and change his mind or move on.

For now i have broken up with him.I told him not to contact me or meet me as i need to move on.I can be with him only if he is with me forever as i give in too much emotionally to a relationshop and it will be very painful for me.Plus i do have parents to answer to.We both are financially independent and if we love each other i don't see why marriage can't happen.

Please advise me if i am wrong??Somewhere i hope he'll realise and come back but that is just hoping against hope.

[orientalG]

I am in a similar position. Although a bit different.
Your boyfriend said he is not mentally prepared to get married to anyone. I think what he's saying is true. I understand that you might be fearing he meets and marries the next girl? I think this is not gonna happen so don't worry about that. My ex was a real commitment phobe. Since I left him 3 years ago he has not even been in a relationship. He is 39 years old. Wow. Some people just really don't have it in them.
I think you are doing the right thing and I admire you for your strength!

[doubtfire999]

Thanks but i'm in a terrible condition right now.I have never wanted anything more than him in my life but I should not be the only one feeling this right.He should feel the same way.Does his rigidity matter more than my presence in his life.
It's just been a week since i broke up.he has been trying to call me and text me and trying to normalise things hoping i'll give in to what he wants.Today it might be ok but tomorrow what?Neither will i be 24 anymore nor him.Everyone needs a person later on.
Im in a great dilemma.My mind says the right thing is to move on but my heart does not allow me to.Everytime he texts or calls I itch to reply or pick up but i know it's not right.He'll just take me for granted but then again if i avoid i have that fear he will get used to being without me.
This is a terrible phase.I don't know what to do and i just hope no one else goes through this

[orientalG]

I know it is hard. I have been there and I might have to go through it again but I also know that it will be ok. The first few weeks and month is tough but you are young. Go out and maybe meet new guys and date. Some girl go on a dating challenge where you go on dates with 30 different man in 30 days or something. It may be a fun distraction to do.

[Heartbroken2284]

This is a terrible situation- I should know I'm suffering from exactly the same type of break up anxiety and heartache!

You feel torn in two, wondering if you've made the right decision and if you'll ever find that type of love again! It's scary as hell and the more you consider your actions the more confused you get but I agree with lots of the responses that say 'if he really cared would he allow you to walk away? Answer: No!

I truly believe that the right man would fight for you, he'd know that whilst marriage may not be happening immediately it will happen in the future and would reassure his girlfriend that in time he would make the commitment.

As painful as it may be to accept, I have started to realise that the whole commitment question, represents a far greater problem with the relationship, as it seems if one person feels strongly enough to marry why doesn't the other? Is it because he can't marry because of other intrinsic problems in the relationship which worry him about making a huge commitment that may later fall apart? Is it because he is a commitment phoebe in general? Or is it because he doesn't see himself marrying you? This is virtually impossible to answer, because only he really knows why he is acting the way he does, but not knowing is a horrible position to be in for anyone.

It  may seem like a cliché  but I do believe, that what's meant to be will be and if he comes back it's because he wants to fight for you and talk about a future and if he doesn't then he wasn't supposed to be with you and you will find someone who is!

This is a very sad time for both of us but take each day as it comes and take good care of yourself.  If it helps just hold onto the hope that he will come back and if he doesn't then this hope will see you through to a time when you no longer need it, as you will be strong enough to move forward!

I wish you all the best sweetheart!

[kittykat1974xxx]

i have been with my boyfriend nearly 4 years he was married before but it ended because she had an affair i was with someone for many years but never married him never wanted to anyway we do not live together today i ask him what does he want out of this he couldnt answer this he said just take everyday one by one so i said when are we gonna get aplace together his answer was why u have urs i have mine we are fine as we are i said no i want more he said we would have to wait till the kids moved ut now his kids are 18 and 24 mine is 18 and 19 one of mine is living with her boyfriend so i said that could tsake years he says he loves me and i no he does but i really think he still loves his exe wife and will never commite to anyone properly again i feel hurt and frustrated and really dont know what to do do i cut my loses ago or do i stay as we are i love him plkease i need someone to talk too thanks kat xx

[trashcan11]

Don't screw up something wonderful. You live in your own place and he lives in his own place. You have the chance to foster a love that most married couples who live together don't usually get. Rather than being two halfves of the same whole, you can be a whole person who loves another whole person.  Love is like sand that you hold in your palm. I know you want to feel the sand with all of your hand, but as you close your palm to feel it, it will pour out of your fingertips. You can keep it their or let it fade.

[sarahapril]

i have same issue except my boyfriend does nt want to marry me or have children with me i feel i am missing out as he has been married and had kids in the past. i cant talk to him as it causes a arguement

[sassypants216]

I'm in tears!! This forum is soo sad! Maybe because I'm reading things I don't want to hear but know are probably true for me. I'm 27 and have been dating my boyfriend for 3 years. We have been living together for 2. I'm his first real relationship...he's one of many for me but the one I planned on being with forever. We moved in together when we moved out of state for post college jobs. He said he loved me move then anything and plans on spending the o rest of his life with me. My mother warned me not to live with him before getting married. I didn't listen. It's been two years. His first friend just got married and he says he now knows he wants to marry me and is closer to setting at date. I'm not sure if I can wait. I'm freaking out. I don't want to be like one of the other posters on here waiting to be married after 6 years!!! YIKES! He pays my bills, rent, loves me, everyone says how lucky I am and how great we are and bla bla bla bla. But maybe...just maybe that's not enough. I've been dreaming about my wedding my whole life! Don't get me wrong, I don't want to be Kim Kardashian...I KNOW he is the one. But maybe he really isn't ready. Maybe I'm over reacting and need to chill, maybe I'm scared I know that I need to leave. :(

[Gloo]

My opinions:

If he is not marrying you, he is just NOT that into you!

If he is not making a commitment, he is just NOT that into you!

The sooner you realize the truth, the sooner you can break it off and go on and find a guy who really loves you and wants to commit to you for the rest of his life!

It's just like us girls: we are sometimes just not into some guy, even if the guy seems awesome.

This is how it is in life.

"Why buy the cow when he gets the milk for free" is not true all the time. Some guys live with you and realize "hey, I can live happily with this person" and then get married!

If you are 20ish-25ish, I'd say don't get married! Live life and enjoy it. Lots of people get married young and get a divorce in their 30's and have lost their awesome 20's!

If you are over 25ish, don't give it more than 1.5years-2years MAX!!

A radio talk show guy once said "I'd be breaking up with myself if I didn't propose to my girl after 2 years!"

It's the truth...accept it and move on. An "unsure" or "afraid" guy is just making excuses and is a loser!

[lovefool]

Gosh this is crazyyy...i just read all the posts, so many women feeling the same whether young or old, with kids or without, only a few yrs in a relationship or more the hurt is all there...its such a shame...Im 21 and ive known my current boyfriend (33) for 2yrs now and we've been together for 10months now and we've lived together for those 10months...My parents have had 23yrs of great marriage and they also have 12 yrs age difference so that was never an issue for me, on the contrary i liked that because my bf was mature and done with all the fooling around of young age...Our relationship has been great...we do make each other so happy, he's always saying how lucky he is to have me in his life and how im his rock and all that...We've also met each others families and his family loves me, they always ask him when he is going to marry me but the answer is "i dont know"...My family is a bit old-fashioned as in you marry your boyfriend you just dont fool around with guys because it damages your image kinda thing and i totally respect them , and they are bending their rules for me for this relationship because they know how much he means to me but i got an ultimatum from my parents that if nothing happens for 5 months then they wont let me be with him as his girlfriend... I dont blame them, it's the culture and the age they were raised in and these are the morals ive grown up with so I do respect them...My bf is currently looking for houses to buy and he asked me if i was going to move in and im totally up for that but my mum said shes not going to allow that as she says i shouldnt act like his wife when im not one as he'll feel like  "Why buy the cow when i can get the milk for free" and he wont be inclined to get married at any point if hes already gettng all the benefits rather than the responsibilities too...My bf asked me what was on my mind last night and i said "the future of our relationship" (after bringing this conversations up many times before) and he said that i should enjoy every moment of our relationship and not over analyze things and that he loves me with his whole heart but he wants to be stable before he makes that kind of commitment, he also said that when he considers me as his wife many things will be looked with a big lens and the relationship is not the same, he ended the conversation by saying "whats the point of worrying bout this now, we're not getting married tomorrow or in 6months or in a year, you havent even graduated...The way it all got translated to my brain was: I do love you but im not sure i love you to be my wife for my whole life since i see flaws in you that i overlook now but i wouldnt otherwise...i dont plan on marrying u any time soon so lets enjoy the present...As many other women mention above "i really could give a **** about a big wedding or anything religious (im not), i didnt even celebrate my 21 bday with anyone but him so im really not into spending a lot of money on it, cos i dont have that luxury myself on it so i wouldnt even dream on asking him for that, and im not interested in his money we could keep separate bank accounts for all i care...i just want him to acknowledge that im really worth it for him to spend his life with me...". Im usually a very confident person and i love myself but he's making me doubt all that for the fact that he is not showing willingness to prove that to me and to my family and our common friends...I sometimes think that i love him more than i love myself but its so hurtful to be with someone that is not sure about u as much as you are sure about them (even though you are forgetting all his flaws, horrible past and big issues that he has) when you are young and have everything going for you...Love is a ***** ill say that!!!  

[Gloo]

You are so young and have so much to do to really grow up, even though you are very mature for your age!

As they said above, if you are in your early 20's, you'll be a totally different person when you are in your early 30's, so don't get married right now.

If I were you, I'd break it off with the guy. No point in being sad over it. I know you love him, but give it a few months and it will be so easy to forget him because he was making you sad.

Live your 20's! Enjoy life! Grow up! Get your career going and one day, you'll be so happy with who you are and you'll meet a guy who is happy with himself and it will be awesome!!

Good luck to all!

[lovefool]

Thanks a lot for the advice ;)

[groover382]

i now how you feel i have been with my bf for nearly 2 years he use to tell me that he wanted to get married but now after reading all of this i have said i want to get married and he is saying thatr it is just a piece of paper when its not its commitment in front of each other and family and doesnt want to get married as its all the attention on him and doesnt want it. it makes me feel like its me and doesnt want it from me although may get it from a other girl. so said if i dont get it then we should our seperate ways. oh help! im 27 as well x

[JustWantToKnow333]

My boyfriend and I have been dating for 4.5 years. Neither of us has kids and we do not live together. We both agreed to wait until after marriage before we have any sexual intercourse. We both are financially well established. At the beginning of the our relationship (the first 2 years) all he talked about was marriage. However, I wasn't ready because I was still in school and was focused on graduating college. Now that both of us have graduated from college, the tables have turned, and now I'm ready to get married and he is not ready. He say I am the the person he wants to marry, but he isn't ready to make the big step to commit. I asked him when does he want to get married and he said one day he will wake up and know that he is ready to commit. TO me that is bull****. I battle with my heart and mind on a daily basis. My heart says STAY, but my mind says GO. I'm slowly losing interest in the relationship as the time goes by because I keep on wondering will it ever happen and it never happened yet. I try to stay positive, but it is hard when you see other close friends and relatives that have been dating for a short period and are now engaged or married. I'm usually not the type to look at other people's situation and base my judgment off of theirs, but there has come a point were I'm asking my self what am I doing wrong or what is wrong with me and why won't he marry me. I pray about it, I joke around with my friends about it, and I have been to counseling, but still ponder on whether or not we are going to get married any time soon. If we were to break up today, I don't believe that I've wasted 4.5 years, but I have gained valuable insight and knowledge through this relationship. He is very honest and trustworthy and I do not want to lose him, but I don't want to lose myself either. Some times I feel like I'm over analyzing the situation. I try to take it into consideration that I am a more structured and formalized person and knows what I want when I want it and has a plan for everything. He is a more free-formed, free-spirited person that lacks formalization and would rather not have a plan.

I just want to know should I stay or should I go...

[Gloo]

It might be that he is holding your decision to wait til you graduated against you...

Or, he has graduated college, and as that makes people think more about waiting for marriage longer, and he is wondering if it's right...

Since you guys have talked to each other about marriage before, then why can't you talk about when to do it...maybe give him a time when you want to talk about a date where you guys can talk about your expectations in life and marriage and the relationship?

4.5 years is a loooong time...

I have friends who met freshman year of college and got married after graduating and saving money...

The question you have to ask yourself as objectively as you can is: Do I feel like he wants to but he is just trying to save money or etc. or is it that I feel that he is questioning whether or not I'm the right girl? go with the gut feeling! Especially after talking to him.

I once dated a guy who was in college, while I was out of college (bachelor's and master's) and working. He had bought a ring and had brought up little conversations to see how I felt about the whole life-changing thing. He was about to propose to me on a road trip (he had planned it specifically for that reason with our friends) when he had no job or financial security or anything, but he knew he wanted to spend his life with me. He was very smart and knew he could get a job or just work anywhere for us. Well, I broke up with him before he got to do it, because I knew he was going to........the point is that, there is NO GOOD REASON for a guy....if he wants to, he will do it!!

[kayann86]

This is to all the really good women that are being taken for granted out there. I hope that despite our situations we can have a good holiday!

My boyfriend and I have been together 3 years. I am 25 and he is 30 (and I thought I was being smart by dating an older guy, HA!). We have lived together for 2 years. It was a head over heals romance, we still have an animal attraction to each other and have very tendor moments up until the present (despite our issues). I love him very, very much. Nothing would give me more pride than to be his wife. His last girlfriend left him because he couldn't commit after 4 years (she was 30 he 27). I feel terribly for her, and would hate to end up in the same situation. Shortly before their end my boyfriend abruptly moved in his 20 year old (in my opinion tail chasen) bro in so that my BF could make up for lost time with him, so to speak. This caused his poor ex to continue falling apart and she left. Before, I knew what it was like to be on her end of things, I was so naive to think I could be better than her. I had to convince myself that so I could believe in the future of us.

So you could say I knew he was a bit of a commitment phobe in some sense from the begining. He had always been so smart though about what he would reveal to me. He would point out her faults and mention how he knew she wasn't the "one". I also made a joke early on about how I was sure he was against marriage and family. He immediately corrected me, saying he wanted those things, and kids, that he wanted both a girl and a boy. At the time I believed him because I was in love with him and could trust him with anything, he is still to this day, a very honest man-except with his emotions. He always seems to keep himself protected. Instead of devoting himself heart and soul to the one person that loves him for who he is and isn't in it to gain anything. I moved in with him and his brother and lived in a situation most girls couldn't deal with and I made the most of it to the point where when his bro ended up moving out, I felt like I was losing my own brother. I am truly the kind of person that generally cares more for others than I do myself.

Flash forward, 2nd year anniversary. At dinner. He mentions how he wants to move his brother in again and that it would set us off by 5 years. He said he didn't want kids or marriage now and didn't know if he ever would. I started crying. I was crushed. To find that the man I had fallen in love with not only didn't want the same things, but also didn't feel the same way about me. It was really hard and I got to a point with him that I was considering leaving. Then he jumped in and told me I was the most special thing in the world to him and that he couldnt see me go. He said if marriage and kids were what I wanted, thats what I would get.

Flash forward a year later. I started noticing signs of him proposing. Things were going amazingly good between us. He came home after attending a wedding without me (I couldn't go) and started saying all these things to me. Sweet things. Details of what our wedding would be like and all the special things we'd do. We talked about it for a couple hours. He stated that we were a year or two out from getting married. So we would need to get engaged. He smirked at me. Then he started asking me wierd questions at home like if I liked fireworks, of course I like fireworks I watch them every year?! Then he started saying the opposite things, like "IF we got married" stuff. Freaked me out, but then I thought that he might be trying to throw me off. One weekend his best friend and new Girlfriend spent the weekend and I heard them whispering something about "omg!!! thats so exciting!!!" in the other room. I thought he might have been planning a proposal in front of his family thanksgiving weekend. He had been SOOO wonderful, I just wanted to eat him up. I was giddy and excited. All my family have been really hoping we'd end up together and my mom was saying "maybe it will be this weekend, maybe it will be this weekend" she loves him the most and was really excited. So Thanksgiving weekend comes and we go to his family's (normally this is awesome and I have a great time) and instead of the loving attentive boyfriend I was used to, I got the selfish jerk. He stuck me at a bowling alley for 8 hours while he got wasted when I could've been hanging out with my family. He embarrassed and insulted me in front of his father to the point where I started crying and his dad saw-and tried to console me, I am embarrassed to this day. He was so drunk he didn't remember. No proposal, just like 8 hours of beer and strikes and obnoxious comments to the girlfriend who is just trying to be a sport and stick it out even though she could pass out shes so tired. Needless to say I was bummed. I confronted him a day or two later and told him I thought we were nearing the next step in our relationship and that this was kinda a set back, and that I wasn't sure what was going on. He looked at me like I was crazy. Well guess whats going on? That problem I thought we solved a year ago? Oh, well it crept up on me again. Just in time for my younger 22 year old sister whos already had her first born, to need help planning her wedding. Whats a good girl to do? Stand up for her worth? That shes more than a live-in girlfriend. Thats shes marriage material. Shes the real deal, and nothing will be better.

But no, we cant "push" because we would be wronging only ourselves. Let our men's true colors shine, soon enough that my heart isn't shattered again. So that I can brace for the pain. How do you let someone in, in the meantime when your so sure they will break your heart? Because I don't think I can. Because everytime I think that way I start thinking that I want to grow old with him. I want all my dreams with him to be realised. Is that too much to ask? I am willing to set aside stringent time limits and I dont care about having an extremely fancy wedding. I just want to spend my life with man I love. I want to take his last name and be his Mrs. Maybe I am too conventional, but I have worked hard all my life to be a good woman. To possibly be good enough for someone to love, and if somehow I could have someone like him love me for the rest of my life, I am home. That is my dream now. Please god let me dream now! Before all is lost and I have regrets for the rest of my life! Something or someone intervene before two people who were meant to be, end up on seperate twisted paths-away from what really matters.

Its us.  

[specialmom]

Thank you for your post.  I'm sorry for the situation you describe.  I empower you to be strong and take your life into your own hands.  You are a young woman with lots of love and life to live.  You deserve to feel like someone's princess and to know that they want nothing better than to spend the rest of your life with you as confirmed by an honorable proposal and marriage.  You'll get that.  

Clearly, this wasn't the man.  

I would consider a therapist if you can to help work through the emotions about this.  Then take a breather from dating anyone to mend your heart.  It is hard to realize that someone we love will not be with us forever.  But, think of the future you will have with another you love even more because of the way they love you.  

I didn't marry until my 30's and wondered if I'd find the right person for a long time before I did.  I loved a few before I did and it was worth the wait.  Be patient.  

But again, be strong.  good luck and peace to you.

[Stacy913]

Isnt google great?  I feel a little better knowing some other woman are in the same boat.  I have been in my relationship for three years.  We have a beautiful daughter and family together (my son is 10).  I feel like a brat being on here for xmas but was really hoping for a proposal last night or this am.  I so want that life long commitment.  I feel like I am a great catch, make him happy as he does me... I feel like everyone else wants us to get married... everyones making comments/family friends aquantances/store owners.. I saw at least 8 propsals go through on my fb this month.. and Im just like why not me?  We already have a strong basis, love and lust... what is he waiting for?  What more could he possibly want from a woman... I never thought I would say this, but I think if he does not pop the question in a year or so I will have to start looking and break free.. I deserve marriage in my life and I really want that lifetime commitment.  Marriage is so symbolic and I feel like I will not be fully happy without it.  It makes me feel like he feels something is lacking in the relationship and I know there are men out there that would love to make their woman feel so special to be their wife.  He did get me a silver and onyx ring with bracelet/necklace.. of course my 10 year old asks if were getting married.. I think my boyfriends heart skipped a beat and felt under pressure.. I feel like if you with someone and in love it shouldnt make you feel pressured or uncomfortable and the thought of marriage or actually getting married.. Maybe.. he is just not that into me.  I want someone that IS.  btw - I have brought it up a few times.. and am not going to anymore.. It should come from him.. and he knows how I feel.. well.. Ill let you ladies know in a year whether or not it goes down.. lol.. enjoy your holidays.

[Gloo]

If I were you, I'd tell him the old "You are too insane and unstable and immature for me...one minute you are hot and one minute you are cold...you act like a 19 years old! We're over...bye."

You don't deserve to be treated like crap one day and nice the other. He is immature and not good enough for you. Love yourself enough to not put up with him. You are young and awesome and beautiful and you deserve someone way better! Tell him that!

Forget guys like that! Us girls put up with too much!

I'm breaking up with my boyfriend soon...I just didn't wanna be the grinch this xmas because he loves xmas...and he is unemployed and is about to get a job. Once he gets the job offer, I'm breaking up with him. We've been together for 2 years and 3 months....no proposal? good bye!!

"Cause if you liked it, then you should have put a ring on it!" -Beyonce

I've been proposed to 2 times before and I said no both times...wrong guys...

As girls, we gotta be picky! We are the jewels in the world and random guys can't have us just like that!

Guys are dime a dozen....not girls!

Us girls can have any guy we want out there! Why put up with an idiot who doesn't want to commit to us? They have excuses but to me, it's just "he is just not that into you."

[Heartbroken2284]

What a beautifully written statement! It moved me to tears, as I feel much like you, that I have lost the man of my dreams, as I have been through a very similar situation recently.  

Love really hurts when you fall in love with someone who isn't right for you and nothing prepares you for that! I wish you all the strength and courage to get through this sad time! Focus on yourself and in time your heavy heart will float again.  

Take one day at a time. The pain will eventually pass and you can hang onto the hope that he may wake up one day and miss you enough to get in touch but if not then the hope will see you through to a happier time and a new man who deserves you.  After all, everything happens for a reason and  if you are supposed to be together then you will be, if not then fate has something better suited to you in store!

One day you'll look back on all of this and smile because either you're back together and everything wen't well or  because you met the man of your dreams and your thankful for the time you had with your ex and for how you grew up together ready for the next chapter of your life! Never look at any of this negatively, as it's all special on some level, as you shared so much of your life together-keep this in mind and you will move forward with the confidence and positivity necessary to meet someone else-if that's what is supposed to happen.

Good luck and go forward into the world as the fantastic woman that you clearly are, you will be happy again i promise! x

[blueeyes21527]

I am 43.  I was married at 23 and divorced at 32.  I have two children (teens) from my marriage.  I have been with my current boyfriend for 3 years (since I was 40).  

My boyfriend is 57 and he has been divorced for almost 20 years.

During our three year relationship the topic of marriage came up a few times.  On our first Christmas (2009) he said "If I asked you to marry me, would you say yes?"  I said yes.  I then said "If I asked YOU to marry ME would you say yes?" and he said yes.  We had only been together a few months so I figured that in time he would be ready to actually propose.

In 2010 he made a similar statement, something like "If I asked you would you marry me?" and I said yes, but that he would need to get on one knee and do it formally.  His parents then left him a huge winfall of money so I thought he would likely use some of it for a ring.... but he paid off some debts and bought a boat and did not propose.

This Christmas 2011 I had a feeling he would propose but he didn't.  The topic came up and he said that he has been married before and it didn't work out, so he didn't want to jinx things by doing that again.  He said that he likes things the way they are (we don't even live together...)  He said that I could buy myself a ring (with his money) to wear as a commitment symbol, and I could call it an engagement ring "if I wanted to", but he didn't want a marriage.

He treats me like a princess and is sooo kind to me  (writes me love poems, etc., and writes me music and always has my back in every situation...  We have unending trust and laughter and depth in the relationship.  I have thousands of mushy texts when we are apart and he is so emotionally "open" with me.  We are really, really close).

Truth be told,  I actually kind of fear marriage again too (my divorce was brutal...) and if he did propose I would likely be extremely nervous and hesitant......BUT  just thinking about the comments he made, me feel like I was pretty worthless.  "I like things the way they are".   The way they are, I see him maybe a few times a week and we don't live together.

I have a hard time imagining growing old without at least living with him or be married to him.  Running a home on my own is exhausting.

Should I go buy the "commitment" ring without the commitment, or tell him to shove it?

[blueeyes21527]

Continued from the last post...

I forgot to point out... every time the topic of marriage came up in the past 3 years, it was my boyfriend initiating it (e.g., asking what i would say if he proposed, asking if I would want to marry him down the road).  I had never once mentioned marriage, brought up the topic, insinuated anything or alluded to any interest on my own.  I follow "The Rules" quite a bit in thinking that a woman should never bring up the topic of marriage -- that is the man's opportunity to step up and make a decision on his own.  (And if the woman gets tired of waiting, then it's her choice to walk).

So, if he brought up the topic of marriage quite a few times before and always said he would propose, and accept if I proposed (lol), then... what changed?  That is the reason I am so confused.  Of course I asked him and all he said was he doesn't want to jinx us because he got married before and it didn't work.  I feel like saying "Well you were in love before too, so maybe you shouldn't love ME or it won't work out"... or "Well I guess that means since your relationship didn't work out, you shouldn't jinx yourself by being in this relationship with me -- so why are you?"  Why is it just marriage that is jinxed, and not love or dating?  They both obviously failed for him (and myself) in our previous marriages.  Illogical!

It's exciting to go with him and  shop for a "commitment" diamond ring from him, but what do I tell people?  We are engaged to "not get married", and that he didn't propose?  I am confused about the ring issue and now the relationship all feels so different.

????

[specialmom]

Hi there blue eyes.  First let me point out to anyone reading this from here on out and to you, that this post is very old and it is often better to just start your own post to get more responses.  Many don't read these and you just get one or two to write a comment.  

Anyway, I think it sounds like your boyfriend was dead honest with you this last time--------  he's been married before and isn't feeling like it is important.  It's the 'traditional' thing to do and you both have been down that road with others and it didn't work out.  But as it is the 'traditional' thing to do---  people still struggle with not really wanting to do it.  You yourself say that you'd be fine not marrying.  You probably have had your own internal struggles with it.

Now, I'm big on statements.  I want a man to let the world know that he cares so much for me that he will give up being 'single' to be with me.  That is just how I feel though.  I think that if he lives like a married man with you, gets you this ring he speaks of, and you feel in your heart that his actions indicate that he loves and cherishes you, then  this may make you feel satisfied.  You must, however, consider legal aspects.  Next of kin would be his children unless they included you.  Legal issues of common law marriage may come into play if you live together for many years.  Just things to think about.  

What you tell people is that he bought you a beautiful ring.  You don't need to explain exactly what it means.  Only certain people will press you---  those you are closes to and those are the ones you may want to tell about the ring and the decision to be a committed couple without actually marrying and those who are just rude, and those are the ones you just ignore.  

This is your life to live as you wish-----  don't let others dictate to you what you are supposed to do.  I'd want to get married.  But that doesn't mean that others should feel that way.  If you are fine being committed with a man who loves you just minus the ceremony, then this is what you should do.  good luck and peace

[blueeyes21527]

Thanks, Specialmom.
I agree that he was honest.  That's what I love about this man.  He is the most sincere, honest, moral person I've ever met.  He will not even tell a white lie to a stranger.  He is very sincere and expressive of his thoughts -- always in a caring way.

I know that he is genuine in wanting a commitment (I don't doubt his love at all, and I believe that he intends to be with me "til death do us part"..) but it was the change of sentiment that caught me.  On reflection I don't think he started to "love me less" over time... I think that he originally pictured marriage when he was mentioning it in the past but now he realizes he doesn't want all those trappings.  I don't think it has to do with his affections, just his change of thoughts of how to proceed.  Also with regard to him saying he doesn't want to "jinx" things.. he is very superstitious and does many superstition - related things (e.g., will not walk with one shoe on,  throws salt over his shoulder, reads Tarot cards, LOL... Cute...) so I guess the "jinx" idea is something that does resonate in his personality.

He does NOT have children or any next of kin except two siblings (and his parents are still alive).  We do NOT live together but we do talk about retiring together.

I was in a cohabitation relationship after my divorce and prior to this relationship and it was horrible ....  the legal fees to split up cost more than my divorce..  That is why I think I said I would also be a little scared to marry again.  Regardless I would do it because I believe in this man.

So tomorrow is supposed to be our ring shopping day since it's new years eve and he wants that to symbolize our new commitment (without a proposal or marriage??) for 2012.

I know we are older, divorced and past the white picket fence / have babies together stage.  I understand younger people wanting that so they can raise a family together.  But, even though I'm older I would still like to feel like I was worth marrying.

I have decided to get the ring (and he wants to engrave something in it that I've yet to see...)  I'll keep you posted.

Wish me luck!

[specialmom]

Oh yes, I do wish you luck blue eyes.    You never know what will happen in life.  Journeys start one way and have all kinds of twists and turns and right when you think you are heading down one road, you take a detour and find yourself someplace else.  I know you are worth marrying----  and he does too.  He is getting you a ring to say how much he loves you.  If you find yourself really struggling with this---   then my suggestion would be to tell him.  Tell him that you feel like the relationship would be complete if he made you his wife.  You aren't there yet but as time goes on---  you may feel the need to say it.  And that is alright.  You must have your needs out in the open.  Then I'd not mention it again and see what he does.  So, you always have options down the road . . .

Do let us know how it goes.  Peace and luck to you.

[Bobol]

I found this website by accident and thought (notice here I did not use the word felt) the subject of men's desire to avoid marriage was fascinating.  I'd like to offer my point of view as a man in the hope that it may help the mostly female audience here get a better understanding of the situation, from the other side.  

  In this day and age, I asked myself, why should a men get married?  Let's say that a man and a woman are living together, what does a man stand to gain and lose by getting married.  Frankly, men are to gain nothing by getting married!  One can love, have children, live with a partner, have commitment, without marriage.  Simple as that.

  Now what does a man stand to lose?  First, before getting married a man ought to understand that there is roughly a 50-50 % chance that the marriage will end in divorce (notice I did not write the marriage ends up not working...the odds would be even higher...) and that the woman files for divorce in about 70 % of the cases.  This being undestood, a man should then understand what he will be left with after the divorce.  I will provide just one example...I could provide many more if requested.  Let's say that a couple lived in California and were married for 11 years.  The husband worked and the wife stayed at home to raise one kid.  If she cheat on him and decides to get a divorce to go and live with her lover, he will have to pay her alimony for the rest of his live!!!   Please note that I am not referring here to child support, just alimony.  Yep, this is what happens nowadays with no fault divorce!  A woman can walk away giving no reason at all!  As a man I cannot understand why a man should take that risk.  There are many more risks a man is taking when he gets married (false domestic violence claims, unjustified restraining orders, etc.) , I choose to just provide one.

  Again from a man's point of view, very little to gain and plenty to lose when he gets married.  Maybe the marriage laws need to be changed to make marriage a more balanced/ attractive option for men...but in this day and age, it seems easy to understand why many men avoid marriage.

  Hope this helps give the women here a better or more complete understanding of the situation.

  Best,

  Arthur.

  

[Gloo]

Blueeyes, why don't you guys get a prenup and get married, so that you BOTH get financial security and you get your ceremony and he gets to give you what you want? :)

If he doesn't agree to that, I'd leave him.

Bobol, what if both partners agree to a prenup to make sure that no one gets financially damaged if there is a divorce?

Financially thinking, it makes sense to resist marriage. Otherwise, there is no good reason for not getting married, except for "he or she is just not that into you."

I'm a girl and I've said "no" before because I wasn't into the guy. I've also had guys "not" into me. It's just life. It's special when BOTH people are INTO eachother.

Good luck to all.

[blueeyes21527]

Hi
It's me, Blue eyes.  
My guy and I both make the same amount of money (exactly to the penny) and we actually work at the same job.  Standard of living is comparable other than I have children to support with my money and he doesn't.  PreNup doesn't seem to be the issue.  I think it is that he has lived alone as an adult for 20 years since getting divorced (he is 57) and he is used to having some alone time.  I'm not insulted by that.  I get it!  I actually really like "alone" time too when I'm not with him or with my teenaged children and I like to do my own things.  We adore our time together but there are some differences of way-of-life and lifestyle that might be hard to meld.

Living together will definitely happen down the road once my kids move out and I'm not worried that he isn't into me.  It's much different when you are 57 and 43.  It's not like we need to get married to have legitimate children or to experience the walk down the aisle because we've both done that before (with huge disappointments).      We will be together and that is not an issue.  PreNup and finances is not an issue.  Neither stands to lose financially even if we split 50 - 50.

[blueeyes21527]

I know this is a matter of "point of view".  I do see your point Arthur.  But, as a single mother who has been through divorce AND a commonlaw break up, I know there is the woman's point of view too.  I get $1000 a month from my children's father for child support.  I do not get alimony.  Yes I understand it would suck to be the father and have to pay that money.  But, please realize it doesn't constitute a free ride for the mother.  I spent $100 000 on lawyers because he fought viciously over custody.  So, every penny of my child support automatically goes to the lawyers and I haven't spent a cent of it on myself or the kids in the whole ten years while I have been receiving it.  Single parenting is extremely difficult (for men or women) and it is extremely expensive.  There have been times when I have to "borrow" rolls of toilet paper from work just to get by, and I make a very decent salary.  So... it does hurt men to take the divorce risk but I hope you don't think all women laugh themselves to the bank after divorce.  It will take me 25 years to pay back the legal fees which I did not cause.  Yes, I did file for divorce but it was because he was beating the hell out of my three year old.  And for this I will pay legal fees beyond the cost of my mortgage (child too young to testify so no evidence).  This was not a false claim.  So I am saying that women take a risk of divorce too -- but the risk would have been just as costly if we hadn't married and were only living together.  Commonlaw divorce is WAY more expensive because the rules are even less black and white in court.  During my commonlaw relationship after divorce we did have a cohab but guess what.... one party can still sue the other by challenging it after the relationship ends, and then the legal bills are equal to divorce -- if not way more.  

I guess the bottom line is you can be screwed financially as a man or as a woman, whether living together or being married/divorced.

The alternative is to date, live alone and grow old alone.

Take your pick.

[Bobol]

Bonsoir specialmom et al.,

  Clearly there is nothing to gain, for a man, in marriage.  Plenty to gain for a woman ( priority for child custody, child support for which she has no obligation to provide any proof to the authority that she is spending said money on the children, the right to keep the standard of living she has been accustomed to...paid for by the man even if he does not live with her anymore, etc.).  As for pre nups, they are routinely thrown aside (for example she could have signed it under duress...!) but they cannot address children's issues which put men great risk.  Example (of course!), if a man lives with a single mother, without being married, and the judge says that he developed a relationship with her children (notice I did not write if he has de facto developed a relationship with the children!, the judge will decide!) he may be forced to pay child support even if he is not the father of the children!  How's that for a risk?

  As for paying thousand of dollars to lawyers for divorce, if you do not get married or live with a significant other...

  Then of course there is the matter of the poor choice women make regarding their partners.  Why go and marry, or live with, an abuser?  Have you not seen the red flags?  A woman should take full responsability for her poor choice of mate.

  Contrary to what Gloo writes there are plenty of reasons for a man, other than financial, for not getting married.  Example? All right, not being married allows a man an easier exit from a relashionship if the woman cheats, gets fat (big...problem in the USA) or becomes too bitchy.  An unmarried man can choose to use his time as he so desires.  An unmarried man is not at the mercy of his wife's mood swings regarding sex, you know... the old I have a headache dear,,,  There are more, I will stop at these three.  Oh I forgot, just one more, not getting married allows a man not to be threatened by false DV claim (very commonly used by women in divorce cases) and being excluded form his own home he pays for by a restraining order filed by his wife.

  As for living on your own and growing old on your own, notice I did not write living alone, it beats the hell out of married life.  

   In short, nothing to gain for men in marriage, plenty to gain for women.  As an aside, let's consider that men pay roughly 95% of the total alimony being paid.  Need I say more?

  Of course, not all women are like that (NAWALT) but why take such a risk in this day and age?

  Best to specialmom et al.,

  Arthur

[Gloo]

Bobol, you write as if guys are perfect and it's only women who have issues during a marriage, including the stuff you mentioned about women having "headaches."

Guys aren't perfect. Guys have a lot more health issues over their life times, on average, than women. So who takes care of him when he is sick or had a surgery? the woman! Some guys have low sex drives too. Guys can be idiots too...they make a lot of mistakes during the length of marriage, such as causing trust issues or being insensitive and taking women for granted.

Cheating can happen by both sides so I'll leave that alone.

Therefore, assuming the guy isn't a cheater or abusive in any way, a woman is STILL taking a big risk (of divorce) by getting married.

I always worry that even if I do find a great guy and get married and have kids, what if he messes up and files for divorce and then my kid or kids will have to deal with a divorce. I don't care if I am a single mom, at which point I would not date any other guys anymore because it would mostly come down to having to choose once in a while between "my kids" and "my boyfriend."

Yes, divorce laws mostly favor women, but it doesn't mean women aren't hurt just as much because of divorce.

There is no way to "know the future" and pick the guy that will forever live with you smoothly. Marriage is a risk, just like everything else in life. You fall in love and you get married because you want to spend your lives together and grow old.

Guys who say marriage is a big risk: well, dating is a big risk because what if you find out she is insane and she gets hurt by you and destroys your car and everything else? What, so you won't ever date?

The NEED to be with a partner is pretty biological. Alternative is be alone, which requires someone pretty immature to do.

[kayakinmom]

I try to look at it from the mans perspective, what's going through their mind.  First of all, they are pretty simple creatures.  That doesn't mean they aren't intelligent, they just think along simpler lines than women do.  If I were a man and already had everything I wanted and needed in a relationship already, I imagine there would be very little incentive to take it to the next level.  I dispise that old saying, 'why buy the cow if you can get the milk for free', because it's so insulting, but sadly, it's true.  As women of our era, we are much more self-sufficent than in the past, but we still like the idea of being so loved and important to our mate that they desire to commit that to us in front of God, friends and family to prove it to us.  That's all well and good, but you can't MAKE him feel the same way you do, unfortunately.  I guess the only suggestion I have would be awfully drastic, get your own place and make him realize just how much he has to lose and what you really mean to him and he will have to decide what he's willing to do to have the whole package.

[Bobol]

Bonjour Gloo et al.,

  First thing, as for the way I post things on this site, I am focusing on a man's priority / point of view.  I never wrote that guys were (or were not) perfect.  You may come to this conclusion based on the fact that I have not mentioned that women (may?) have legitimate issues toward men.  Me not writing about issues women (may?) have about men does not imply that men are perfect.  I just focus on a different set of issues.  I will also add that english is a second language for me, therefore the way i express my ideas may sound a bit less subtile than you as I do not have the same mastery of the english language as you.  Such are my habilities at this point.

  In your post, you state; Cheating can happen on both sides so I'll leave that alone.  Au contraire mon amie, let's not leave that alone.  Let's examine your statement.  First, I do not have any official stats regarding this so I'll take your word for it.  Sounds fair enough.  However you are very obviously wrong here and I will explain it to you.  All other things being equal, the consequences of being unfaithful are very very different for a man vs. for a woman, in a couple.  If a man is unfaithful and gets his mistress pregnant, the consequences for his spouse imply no direct responsability for her.  However if a woman is unfaithful and gets pregnant, the consequences for her spouse are terrible.  Indeed, according to present laws that date back to so many centuries, in a married couple the husband is responsible for the child even if he has not fathered that child.  In other words a man is at the mercy of his wife whims, has no say in her having the child or not, cannot opt out of fatherhood (even if the child is not his) but will have to pay anyway!!!  Why should men put themselves at the mercy of another human being?  Why take such a risk?  If this topic is of interest to you, google paternity fraud and see what comes up!  So you see, unfaithfulness has much more consequences for a man than for a woman, all other things being equal (emotional pain, sense of betrayal, etc.).  Again here another reason why marriage is a bad deal for a man.

  As for divorce laws, as you admit, they clearly favour women at the expense of men.  It then follows that women are not hurt as much as men in case of a divorce (all other things being equal...again) they are hurt but much less.  Why should a man opt in a system that clearly puts them at a disadvantage?

  As for your comparison of marriage and dating, that is one flawed comparison.  Indeed I have dated nutcases in the past.  There was just no second date, I opted out plain and simple, no cost to me.  If I had ignored the red flags (trust me on this) and married the woman, I could never have opted out just like that.  So, bad comparison.  I will date, no biggie.  I will however never get married in the present state of affair.  Thank...god.

  Lastly, in my opinion there is no such a biological need as one to be with a partner.  There is a biological need to procreate.  The rest is more of a social construct, not a biological need.  What makes someone who lives alone immature, please explain.

  Bonjour kayakinmom,

  Very interesting post.  I'll have to limit my comments due to time constraints.  Men and women living in separate places sounds very sweet to me.  Avoids a lot of nagging (justified or not) from the s.o.  Allows men to avoid alimony (such an insane concept to begin with).  If a man lives alone, indeed he may see things he is missing (not sure what though), he may also see things he is gaining...

  Regarding commitment to you in front of family and god, first you'd have to specify which god you are refering to.  Plenty of gods and goddesses have been created by human over the centuries, which one is your diety of choice?  Do you understand that nowadays marriage is not a proof of anything as either party can divorce anytime without so much as having to justify it?  If marriage was the proof of real commitment divorce would never be allowed regardless of the situation.  Till death do us part has no weight whatsoever in this present day and age.  Remember...no fault divorce!

  Must leave now, son has a hockey game.

  Best,

  Arthur

  
  

[blueeyes21527]

I am honestly not old fashioned, and I know people will freak out about this, but I keep wondering why marriages seemed more popular and intact in the past (e.g., my parents generation).  Sure, you might say people still had affairs and unhappy marriages but let's face it, it was much more common for couples to marry and much less likely for them to divorce.  I know there was more social stigma about divorce, but.... still?  I keep thinking about this and wondering why it has changed.

Here's my thoughts and I know some women will freak out.
I'm not even saying I agree, I just think it's true.

I think marriage has declined because men's and women's traditional roles have been blurred to an extent that no one "needs" (in a practical sense), anyone, the way they used to.

In the past (stereotype but more true than now), men went to work and women stayed home.  The women did the housework and looked pretty, had sex, raised kids, changed the diapers and entertained the in-laws, etc.  Men were not expected to know how to do any of that stuff and they needed wives to cook, clean, have sex, raise kids, etc.  

Women needed men to pay for the home, fix the car, fix the plumbing, teach Johnny how to pitch a baseball, etc.    

Now that dads are expected to change diapers, raise kids, do housework, express emotions, watch chick flicks, cook, clean, look nice and be nice.... they have no "need" for a woman other than love and companionship (which they can get while dating).

Women are now working out of the home and being independent by securing mortgages, dealing with insurance companies, paying bills, going to university, coaching softball and even doing home repairs (huge market on TV for women to DIY).   Result:  Men aren't needed.

This coupled with the internet age makes everyone de-gendered.  Think about it, gone are the days of Barbies for girls and GI Joe for boys.  Now all kids want the same technology (IPad, IPod, Cell Phones), so that we all have the same interests and hobbies (surfing the net, watching You Tube, going on Facebook).   Result:  A de-gendered society.

Yes I am a woman and I work full time and I am a single mother too.  I am proud to have the rights women fought for.  I'm not saying that the old times are better... but I honestly think all these changes have a direct impact on the decline in marriage rates these days.  Why bother when you have no "need" for the other gender other than sex and love, which you can get while dating.

I am starting to really see Arthur's point.  He's right to point out that marriage doesn't mean a lifelong commitment.  We just like to pretend it does.  Having been divorced and also having paid huge legal fees to get out of a commonlaw relationship, I am starting to think of marriage as a business contract.

I'm not sure I want to be in any other relationships where the only way out is with a lawyer.

[blueeyes21527]

Oh, and I forgot to mention that with the availability of porn and good looking people to dream about on the internet, people don't even have to leave the house to go to video stores and rent adult material (or, in earlier decades, to go buy a magazine....)  This means that our sex drives are also much more satisfied than in previous generations.  Of course there is something to be said for true physical contact, but let's face it, people are getting that from dating and it is another reason why marriage isn't as "necessary" as it used to be.

I would marry my boyfriend in a second if he wanted to.  I adore him and I am very confident to try again because I am a hopeless romantic even though my last two posts sound cold.  But, he isn't interested and when I really think about it (and all the points I've made), I have to agree that it isn't the end of the world.  I'd rather know we are together (unmarried) because of our love and free choice, than get married and think perhaps we are together because we fear the legal ramifications of a divorce.

[Bobol]

Bonsoir,

  But...marriage is (emphasis on is) a business contract! No more no less.  if it was not a business contract, you would not have to register with the state!  You would just have a quiet religious ceremony.  No, in marriage you merge financial resources, register with the state, get some tax cuts, etc.  You find out that marriage is a business contract just prior to divorce.

  I tend to agree on the general views you expressed in your previous post.  I have a few reservations, one relates to the notion of women being independant nowadays.  In my opinion women are not really independant nowadays.  They like to think they are, as it flatters their egos, but they are not.  Truly independant women do not rely on big daddy state/government (funded primarely by...you guessed it men) or men (child support or alimony).  They earn their living...independantly.  Have you ever made a list of the social services available to the so-called independant women that are paid for mainly by men?

  Of course I suppose you realize that the social changes you are referring to have been brought at the demand of...women.  I know a couple of women who are not all that pleased with the way things have turned out for them (they have to pay for their meals on a date now, being a single mom and having a job is hard, men rarely ask them out, etc., etc.).  They somewhat would not mind being stay at home moms, but they'd have to...find a man!

  One last remark before I go.  Another reason for a man to avoid marriage (and therefore divorce) at all cost is debtor's prison.  Apparently unconstitutional in the USA, but applied anyways.  Check on google for debtor's prison and child support.  If you have never heard of it, you are in for a rude awakening.  A man loses his job and cannot pay child support, see what happens to him.  Now we have not even yet started to talk about the infamous imputed income in the calculation of child support payments.  That will be for anothe day.

  Before I go, blueeyes2157, I'd like to ask you a favour.  Could you please have your boyfriend read my last 2 posts and tell me what he thinks of them?

  Best,

  Arthur

[blueeyes21527]

Hi Arthur,
My this is fun isn't it.  
I'm not sure that I understand your second paragraph about women not being independent because of funding from the state.  First, I live in Canada so I think the social structure is a lot different.  Nevertheless, I have already told you that every penny of my child support goes to lawyers' fees and I will owe the lawyers for another 25 years because of interest fees.  I do not rely on my child support to survive because I don't spend it on myself or the kids.  I did not insist on lingering litigation but rather my ex inherited a lot of money right after we split and he fought tooth and nail for all of MY assets (e.g., the house I had personally paid $80 000 downpayment for, the kids I had borne and he had physically assaulted, my pension --- he wasn't working during our marriage and didn't have a pension).   He sued for all of these things and the divorce took two years at $600/ hr.   I'm not sure where the state comes in to this.  My lawyer was a woman (actually so was his) and the judge was a woman too.  

I make 6 figures having gone to University and I have held down a reputable job for 20 years.

I have done all of my own financial planning / work, arranged my own mortgage rates and insurance payments and house repairs.  I have raised the kids on my own because their father remarried and had two new children, so he hasn't seen mine in years even though he is legally allowed and I encourage it.

I do not take any handouts from the government.

I have several divorced friends and not one of them gets child support because to get it they would have to incur huge legal fees.  So, not one of my friends gets child support.  I'm not sure what you keep referring to as alimony?  I have never heard of anyone getting alimony?  What an antiquated idea.  Seriously?  Does it exist?  It is not applicable here in Canada as far as I know.  Women aren't doorknobs and we can earn our own money.  I wouldn't want to think my ex was supporting me and heaven me if I ever relied on him to get by.  That would be an indignity.

How are your state programs funded mostly by men?   It is a known fact that women go to and graduate from University more than men.  They achieve higher in school and are less likely to quit school.  Women's jobs pay taxes too.

To flip the coin I know a man who was a single father and he received child support from the ex-wife.  He quit his job and filed fraudulent income tax to receive welfare and support.   I'm sure this does work both ways in some situations but I've never seen a woman do that (personal experience).

So maybe things are different in the USA.  

I'm not man-bashing but honestly I know at least 20 -30 women who earn more than their husbands and are much more financially responsible (e.g., not gambling, drinking, smoking.... also buying stocks and bonds).  

So of course I'm not entirely independent (nor would I want to be....)  We all need a friend or a lover or a good car mechanic to help us along with daily baggage.  But, I do a damn good job learning things I never thought I would and growing in confidence, success and strength.

Cheers.

[Gloo]

Bobol,

Your English is very good.

1) I didn't know about that: guy having to take care of the kid that his wife got from another man. So I'll give you that one.

2) It's not easy to figure out if someone is unstable or crazy after the first date. Sometimes it takes longer and by then, you might have a bit of attachment. I was saying that if you date someone awesome for a long time and it doesn't work out, you still will be hurt. And true, not hurt financially, like in marriage. But, I believe a lawyer can draw up a contract, better than a pre-nup, to have both parties willingly sign it to decide that they won't be hurt financially.

I'd do that.

3) Needing a partner is biological. Not society-driven. Some animals mate for life out there in the wild. So do people.

People don't want a partner-for-life because movies and society says so. Society says it because that's what PEOPLE want: a partner they grow old with. At least, most mature people.

I can see if you are immature and think you don't want anyone too close in your life besides your family/friends, then that's how you will live. But, if you are mature, you crave partnership. Being there for eachother because no one is 100% independent, like it or not.

I'm a girl and I fix my own cars and am an engineer with a great job. I make lots of money and would sign a prenup saying in case, for any reason whatsoever, there is a divorce, no one gets hurt financially and no need for alimony.

If that's legal?

All I want is to be with my boyfriend forever and grow old grumpy grandparents together......but it's not gonna happen, so I'm moving on. Next!!

[blueeyes21527]

Hello Gloo,
I think you may have missed some of these posts.  A pre-nup or a Cohabitation agreement means absolutely nothing.

I had a rock solid one: 20 pages long, signed in triplicate by multiple lawyers on both sides.  It prohibited us from seeking anything at all from each other, even if we won the lottery.  No division of anything.  It spelled out exactly what belonged to whom.  The Cohab took 6 months to write and was stamped and sealed in the courts.  It cost $5000 between us for legal consultation.

My commonlaw husband was eventually injured and work and he became addicted to prescription meds.  He stopped working, combined morphine with alcohol and became a different person.  He eventually filed for bankruptcy.  He treated me and the children horribly because the meds made him aggressive and unpredictable.  He even pawned the kids' electronics to pay for morphine.

When we broke up I felt confident that given the history (and our cohabitation agreement) all would be fine.

He moved out to live with a friend, who eventually kicked him out as well because of drunk and disorderly behaviour.  He became destitute.  He then qualified for free legal services because of having quit his job (He was never fired ... it was his choice to beat the system).  He got a free lawyer and sued me for my entire house, plus $100 000 in damages for kicking him out, plus spousal support and miscellaneous other expenses.

I was told it is a person's legal right to challenge a Pre Nup or a Cohabitation agreement. I was told you can challenge the US Constitution if you want to.  He had the legal right to free lawyers to take me down even though I am a responsible home owner who pays taxes, works responsibly and participates as a good member of society.  

The legal process takes a long time.  I thought it would immediately be thrown out when the courts saw that we had the Cohabitation agreement.  It doesn't work that way.  You have to go through a series of long processes before it gets to a trial.  Each step cost nearly $7000 and there was no way I could just back out or he would have "won".   I was forced to pay nearly $50 000 by the time we got to the trial stage and a judge finally could say "Oh, you have no claim sir...."  Then it was over.  I was not able to sue him for my court costs because, boo-hoo, the poor addict was bankrupt.  So I am out $50 000 in legal fees just to demonstrate to the court that he had no claim.

Be very very very cautious whom  you will live with.

The law is not friendly when it comes to marriage or commonlaw.

[Bobol]

Bonsoir blueeyes2157,

   As for women's independance, I am not tageting you specifically.  I believe what you state regarding your situatiion.  I was referring to women who claim loud and clear that they are strong and independant (because they are not with a man) while at the same time collecting cheques for child support/alimony/social welfare.  Plenty of those around.

  Regarding alimony, women are not doorknobs, definitely, however quite a few live off  (at least partially) alimony for a long long time.  I am located in canada and alimony is very much alive thank you.  I know a woman who has been divorced for 28 years.  As I write this, she is collecting alimony from her ex-husband.  She gets a cheque every month and has been receiving it for 28 years!!!  Not only that, the government takes the amount off her ex's paycheque automatically!  Isn't that insane?  And obviously she has not provided him with anything.  Of course he never got remarried.   In my view such insanity is one of the best reasons to avoid marriage at all cost.

  When I write about men paying more taxes than women, I mean that men proportionnaly pay more income tax than women, therefore they finance government provided female services proportionnaly more than women.


  Bonsoir Gloo,

  Your turn now...

  Doing the best I can with my limited english writing skills, thanks.

  1)  This was confirmed to me a few times.  Under the present laws a married man IS responsible for any child his wife has, regardless of who is the biological father is.  These situations are happening right now.  Here is a classic case.  I'm talking right now, not in the 1800's.  A man gets married, his wife has an affair with the sweaty drummer of a local rock band.  She gets pregnant by him.  She decides to leave her husband to live with said sweaty drummer.  Under the present laws the husband could (and in my opinion will) be liable to pay child support, even if he is not the biological father.  Said differently, a man will be held responsible for his wife's behaviour during his marriage but has no say in it, cause you know, he'd be labeled a control freak for telling her what not to do.  Isn't that silly?  Very few men actually know this before they get married.

  3) You got it all wrong regarding the need to be with a partner.  An awful lot of animal species do not mate for life in the wild.  Same for people!  The need is to procreate, not to have the same mate for life.  After all, human beings are...animals.

  You also got it wrong regarding maturity.  Society is a system, as a system it wants to maintain it's very existence (remember the old thory of systems by Von Bertalanffy?).  To maintain it's existence it needs stability from it's members, hence marriage for life.  Human beings need to procreate, living together for life is a social construct to keep society going.  Maturity has very little to do with being with the same partner, being married, etc.  An awful lot of people are mature, well integrated, care for others (family, friends, etc.) and are living alone.  Even more, there are plenty of immature married people.  It come to light when they divorce!

  Last point regarding pre nups, blueeyes2157 got it right on the nose.  It is almost a scam now.  You will pay thousands or hundreds to get a pre nup written and you will pay through the nose when your ex tries to strike it down, and he may very well succeed.  Pre nups are routinely thrown aside in US courts for the flimsiest reason.  They are valid only as long as a judge ultimately says so.  Be careful.

  Are we to understand that you are leaving your boyfriend because he does not want to get married?

  Must go now.

  Best (honest!).

  Arthur

  

[blueeyes21527]

Thank you for clarifying Arthur.
I really, honestly, truly have never heard of anyone getting alimony.  I am blown away that someone would / could get it for 28 years (28 months would be pushing it in my opinion!)  Truly, is the woman incapable of working? What's her problem?  If I knew that man I would feel very compassionate as well.  Wow.  Knowing what I know about family law courts I am not surprised by anything, no matter how unjust.

I know a guy who married a young single mother.  She screwed off and left him with the child, 7 years into their marriage.  By then the child viewed him as a father.  He took custody of the child because the mother was no where to be found.   He has had the child now for 8 years (age 15).   In the meantime the biological father has surfaced, but is not responsible to pay anything, and the mother has popped up about once a year (also pays nothing).  All four biological grandparents visit the boy but they are also off the hook for costs.   All of the parenting costs fall on the step-father (custodial) even though he did not legally adopt the child.

I think people are afraid of poking sticks at the legal system, because every type of inquiry results in years of heated litigation which costs thousands.

In my own case, the  father of my two teenagers is legally obligated to pay a share of their university tuition.  We are divorced (this isn't the commonlaw guy I spoke of....)  His obligation for university tuition is written in our divorce order.  He has gone on to re-marry and have two little babies.  He tells me that there are "no funds" to support the kids through university and that he will not pay a penny.  I'm sure I could take this to court but it would take years and end up costing me more in legal fees than what it is worth.  So, once again he has screwed me over.   On top of giving every penny of child support in the last ten years to my legal debt from the divorce, I now have to pay full costs for each child to go to university.  That entire cost will be debt for me as I have no savings due to single parenting.

I don't know if there are any easy answers for men or women, but surely it can't be wrong to still believe in love and want to grow old with our partners.  I always wonder what I will advise my children to do re: marriage, when the time comes.  I have a son and a daughter.  Heaven help anyone who tries to screw them around in such a way.

[Bobol]

Bonsoir,

  I assure you this is one true story.  Alimony is alive and well in Canada.  Indeed this woman has health problems that keep her from working.  She has been on welfare for ages.  Still that is besides the point really.  Why is her ex ordered to pay alimony after he is divorced?  She no longer is his wife!  Not certain he would have married her if he had been told about alimony forever in 1964.

  To make a global comment on this whole issue, it seems to me that unless the marriage and divorce laws are changed, fewer and fewer men will want to marry.  Rightly so I think, give a man the exact info regarding marriage (child support for a child that is not his, etc.) and divorce (alimony for life after 10 years of marriage in california, etc.) and he wil think trice before giving in to his gf pressure.  The next step may be for men do not even live with their gf too long (if at all) because of common law marriage!  I din't know how you see this phenomenon but it seems that many of these changes have been brought at the request of women and that finally the consequence is that they have shot themselves in the foot.  Many men are just walking away from a bad deal.  Opinion?

  As for your children, if you have boys advise them to steer clear of marriage.  Girls nearly always want to get married.  Considering that women initiate about 70% of the divorces, it seems that women want to get married (to show off to their girlfriends perhaps?) they don't really want to be married.

  On a related topic, have you noticed the sheer number of websites on the topic of I want to get married but my boyfriend does not?  As opposed to I want to get married but my girlfriend does not!  Just a thought.

  Will leave now.

  Best,

  Arthur

  

[Lilmama933]

i think if he doesnt want to marry u... he probably doesnt want commited so for now just stay as dating not marrage

[Gloo]

I understand what you are saying and how guys can see it that way. I work with all older (40's and 50's) guys who are mostly married for 2nd or 3rd time. Most don't like the idea of marriage. Very few are "romantics" and want to get married and be with the same woman forever...this is what movies and society tells us: "grow old together" stuff. One of my coworkers, who had a really bad divorce 5 years ago, just fell in love with a girl about his age and after 9 months of dating, he is proposing...

My situation is different. My boyfriend is the type who has always wanted to get married and have kids and have family christmas and all that...so, the fact that he hasn't proposed *only* means that he doesn't want *me* forever. (been together 2 years and 4 months)

And I don't take it as "I'm not good enough." I'm awesome actually: I'm pretty and wild, very smart and a very decent human being.

I don't want anyone's money or even sperm (I can adopt)...I just want love and stability (own house and family) because I need a feeling of belonging to something. I get that I can have that without marriage.

I guess this whole thing comes down to the reasons why the guy doesn't want to. If it's to be free to date other girls, then you are with the wrong guy...

Now I'm confused...this is a good discussion though...thanks :)

[Bobol]

Bonsoir,

  I certainly believe you Gloo.  The way I understand how things work between men and women is more like; when all is said and done men and women cannot trust each other anymore.  Look at pre-nups, willingly signed they are still routinely put aside by the courts for the flimsiest reasons.  Obviously just prior to a wedding no woman will say to her future husband that when they divorce she will make his life a living hell and he will end up broke living in a 1 1/2 apartment paying her alimony for life!  But it happens fairly regularly.  A woman's word, however sincere she is, nowadays means very little.  Actually the courts now have the last word regarding private matters between 2 individuals, grown adults!  A judge will decide, regardless of what the 2 spouses have willingly agreed to in writing!  Of course women are favoured now by the courts, at the expense of men.  No man should get into that type of arrangement, the state should stay the hell out of private matters like marriage and pre-nups.  Sad state of affair now?  Maybe!  However women stand to lose more than men under such circumstances.  Indeed women care much more for traditional marriage than men, bological clock and all.

  Let's see what happens in the coming years.

  Best,

  Arthur.

[blueeyes21527]

Arthur and Bobol,

I agree with everything you say except that you seem to think only men get screwed around in the courts / financially.  If you have read my posts you would see that women do NOT get favouritism in the courts.  Whoever can pay more money to their lawyer gets favouritism.  It's that simple.  I paid over $100 000 in my straight forward divorce back in 2000, but my husband paid more and would have driven me into the ground if the judge didn't finally give him half custody of our toddlers (I had to wean my 6 month old child to give her to him for a week of visitation -- without prior notice --- even though he had admitted to beating our three year old... He agreed to go to psychiatric treatment and give me evidence,  but he never went and for ten years the courts refused to follow up on it....  Oh, and when he returned my 6 month old from the first week of visitation,  he mocked me and pointed out that she was buckled into the car seat but he purposely didn't attach the car seat to the car --- he sneered that she was a perfect projectile ---  and he laughed, saying he did that to horrify me... how could I prove that to a court later on?  He would deny it all)  

Women are not given priority for child custody because "50 50" is the politically correct, en vogue standard these days.  Child support is very, very seldom awarded. Likewise I do not know one mother who has "sole custody" -- it is always joint (custody meaning the legal power to make decisions for the child such as baptisms, what school to go to, how to be raised etc.)  I do not know any woman (or man) with sole custody because it is always joint (50 50) now, or at least some fractional variety of shared time.  

Likewise with the living arrangements for the children of divorce -- as I have told you, my ex beat the hell out of our three year old, and he was a teacher, but he retained his job and got 50-50 residence with the kids (aged 3 years and 6 months, ) because he paid the lawyer a fortune and our three year old was too young to testify.  Ten years later he is now re-married with two new kids, breaching the court order, refusing to see the kids when ordered, not increasing his payments, not willing to pay for university.  He was able to sell his home and make a $100 000 profit by moving to a small town, but my kids don't get a cent of that money even though he didn't even tell them he was moving.  He has yet to undergo the court ordered psychiatric treatment and the court could care less.  How is this in the woman's favour?  It is clearly a situation of "money talks" in the courts, rather than "women are favoured".

I know your friend was screwed around terribly but so was I.   Think of my second relationship -- when I lived with a man for 7 years.  We had a  cohabitation agreement but I still had to spend $50 000 just to have a judge say "Oh, you have a Cohabitation agreement... so I guess your ex has no claim".  I will never get that  money back because the guy quit his job, filed bankruptcy and asked all of us to pay his legal fees (Legal Aid).  You don't seem to acknowledge that.  I know of so many men who file for Legal Aid after quitting their jobs to avoid child support.  In this situation, both men in my life got off scott free by manipulating the courts.

Marriage is a scary thing though and I agree that the legal ramifications are downright terrifying.

I guess I'm crazy though, because I still think I would marry my current beau.  The fact that we are older is reassuring. Neither of us has the interest or energy to deal with that courtroom drama BS.

We have chosen a 2ct diamond engagement ring (yay!!!!!)  but we are not planning any wedding.  It will just
be a commitment ring.


Good luck to all.

[Bobol]

Bonjour,

  I believe you blueeyes2157.  Also your situation speaks for itself.  No comment needed.

  No doubt the courts have behaved in a very very bad way towards you.  The way I see it, yours is somewhat of an exceptional situation, however bad it has been.  In the majority of the cases it's men who get shafted in family courts, I have given a few examples of what can happen to men regarding child support/alimony in my previous posts.  Yes, women can get shafted in family courts but the vast majority are men.  Part of the problem is based on the fact that women can say one thing prior to marriage and act the opposite once married, at the expense of men.  The double standard is obvious to me. By the way, if a man loses his job he is still liable to pay child support, hence debtor prison.  The debt then accumulates until he get out, hopeless really.

  To the best of my knowledge, joint custody is still not the default option.  At least not in Canada.  Women get priority, man gets discriminated against but...he has to pay.

  Your very situation can be seen as one nice example that shows why marriage should be avoided at all cost.

  I wish you the very best with your current beau, a long and prosperous future.

  Best,

  Arthur

[Jschermy]

i cant believe this thread is still going,,, i just watched my sister get married the other day she is 23 i am 27 this year been with my bf for over 4 years, i have been enagaged b4 and he broke my heart,,, deep down i new i was not in love with him, luckily it ended...i keep dropping hints to my current b4 but he seems to ignore me on the subject, i joke around and say im not going thailand if we get married and he replys with " well u might have to marry someone else"... he didnt even ask me to dance at my sisters wedding i was the only one at the bridal table by my self and he came and said "hows it going to me"....

im scared,,, i really really am scared... i am scared we r not meant to be together, he said he will not ask me to marry him for a long time yet, and i feel i just cant wait that long,,, maybe im not fussy? or impatient... but i have watched on FB all my friends get married or have babies,, and i can say that i am the only one left out of my high school friends who has not taken a leep... maybe im different??? im so confused... my parents are relegious and have said please dont have a baby b4 u get married,,, times have changed,,, but after watching my sister get married and to see how happy she was has actually made me i wouldnt say jelous of her but jelous of what she has and acheieved....i feel like im getting no where and just getting older by the minute..,..

[specialmom]

Hi.  Well, the truth is that is not about getting married but about finding a solid, good partner.  I would think that his being inconsiderate and not wanting to dance with you at a wedding and not communicating with you there so that you basically attended the wedding without a date is a sign that this current boyfriend might not be a great partner in the long run.  

I would try to find someone that is really great to you and makes you feel incredibly special.  That is the kind of person  you want to marry.  

The wedding is just one little day out of a lifetime with someone.  How a person treats you is so much important than when that day will happen.  There are lots of weddings . . . and lots of miserable marriages.  So, spend more time searching for the best partner that puts you on cloud nine and makes you feel like you are the most important thing to him.  That is your ticket to happiness.  Peace

[Gloo]

I know how you feel...been there...

Your boyfriend is resisting you, after all these years. Major red flag!!

You are at the PERFECT age because you are more mature and you are still young. You gotta ditch your boyfriend and do the things you love and meet the right guy and you'll be married before you are 30, which is I believe the ideal way.

Look at the statistics. Girls who get married in their late 20's or early 30's have better marriages than girls who get married in early 20's. I wish your sister well, but statistics are against her.

I knew a girl who got married at 22-23 and she is getting divorced right now...wasted her 20's.

I hope you take a day and spend it doing what you like and figure out what you want to do. You will gain back your strength if you do the breaking up...it will feel powerful, like you have the power in your hands. Unlike now, where you are sitting waiting for him: he has all the power.

Don't waste more time! Guys don't have to worry about these things because they don't have to bear children.

If he hasn't proposed to you by now, it's most likely that he won't ever. Unless you ask him, which I wouldn't do knowing how he is about the subject.

I sound like I know it black and white, but it's just that saying "He is just not that into you"

Good luck.

[laura1406]

I've been with my partner for 12 years now and we have 3 children together. I also have an older daughter from a previous relationship. He proposed to me 6 yrs ago but we still haven't got married. Sometimes we discuss it and he agrees that we should do it within the year but then he is totally disinterested in any of the planning even though I don't have any family to help me. We are both shy and want the event to be tiny, for me its just about us and the children. I'm confused. He says he wants to but then doesn't want to know or says we'll have to see with our finances. When our children mentioned one day about us getting married he said he was waiting for a princess. I knew he was joking as he does like to tease but I keep thinking maybe he won't make that commitment because maybe i'm not his Mrs Right. If I tell him how I feel and he does say ok lets do it, how do I know he isn't just doing it because I want it and he doesn't. What is wrong with me that he wouldn't want to marry me. I cook, clean, look after the children and am very close to his family so what's wrong? He's hurting me but is unaware I think.

[sammie479]

my name is samson sebastine from united kingdom i had a problem with my wife
sometimes ago but never knew what the problem was,i tried to asked her but
she refused to tell,me what it was as time goes on i discovered she was
having an affair with  a friend of mine that happens to be my best friend,i
was so sad that i never knew what to do next,during my search for a way out
i met a friend of mine who had similar problem and introduced me to a man
who helped him with his situation,on getting to the man i discovered he was
a spell caster i was shocked because i have not had anything to do with a
spell caster in my entire life so i tried to give this man a chance cos i
never believed in spell casting as i thought it will not work for me but to
my surprise i got positive results and i was able to get my wife back from
him even after the spell caster did all i discovered my wife fell much more
in love with me on like before so i was so happy that i never know what to
do for him so i am using this opportunity to tell anyone on this blog having
similar problem visit ***@**** am sure he will help you.

[Bobol]

Bonsoir,

  Why on earth should your boyfriend take responsabilities, as a man, that you will not be taking, as a woman?  See my previous posts.  It is now well documented that marriage is a raw deal for men (at the very least financially) and that they should avoid it at all cost.

  Maybe if the laws are fixed marriage may become a good thing for men, but in the present context men should avoid any type of business contract with a female.

  Best,

  Arthur

[lovefool]

Dear Bobol ,
I do not want to offend you but I think you have many issues. From the advice you give, it seems like you have not had any luck with women in your life and you ve met the wrong ones and your advice/perspective is so biased and skewed. There are women b****** out there and gold-diggers just like there are abusive or cheating husbands or dumb ppl, that doesnt mean that ppl have to lose all hope and never try again. Marriage is a huge step and ppl should have their eyes fully open before it and half open after but that doesnt mean that you are going to have a divorce because statistics say so. You can choose to be coward and leave a marriage when things get tough or just cos you are a gold-digger but that doesnt mean that this is what you get when you get married. *Note here ladies: Im not talking bout cases of abusive spouse, in that case get a divorce right away!! I think that every wise person (not some light-headed dumb young/old person) should get married only if they feel their partner is a good person with respectable intentions that loves them and puts their needs and desires before their own not someone marrying you for the wrong reasons. There are not many reasons why men should not marry women unless of course the obvious ones "he's not that into you" or "why buy the cow when you get the milk for free" and this all goes by for as long as we women, myself included, dont have any control over our feelings...As soon as that happens,when it reaches the boiling pt, unfortunately, we sweet and loving creatures turn into cold b******* that tell our dear bf to f*** off cos they didnt deserve us and that we will find someone that does...posts like the many above are to comfort us women until we get to that stage... It`s a shame men are not smart enough to understand whats going on and try to prevent all this... so yeah, Im sorry for your situation of the divorce, cos Im fully aware that there are plenty of women out there that misbehave and make men suffer but its not for everyone so the reasons men give shouldnt be generalized either!!
Good luck to all!!!

[Bobol]

Bonjour lovefool,

  Definitely no offense taken.  In fact I am a bit amused by your post which is typical and which is refered to among men as "a chick logic based argument".  You ignore the main point of discussion and focus on the messenger himself, in other words you make an ad hominem attack.  That is typical of women who argue and, consciously or not, act as if they are short of reasons or arguments.  Answer the following;  what does the fact that I may or may not have been lucky or not with women have to do with the fact that marriage is a losing proposition for men and should be avoided at all costs?  In my opinion there are many reasons (for a man) for not marrying, I state one verifiable fact; a married man is responsible for the children his wife brings to this world, regardless wether he is or is not the biological father!  What's more it would be illegal for him to control his wife's behaviour by warning her not to do it or opting out of fatherhood of a child that is not his!  Just for the heck of it, try and reverse the genders, as in equality thinking, do you think that a wife is held responsible if her husband has a child, during their marriage, for which she is not the mother?  Of course not!  Then why the double standard at the expense of men?  I bring forward a fact, the messenger's status has little relevance per se.

  There are many more reasons for men to avoid marriage, to name a few; lifetime alimony after 10 years in some states, quasi automatic custody of the kids to the woman, no fault divorce (meaning you could be cheated upon and still have to lose 50% of your assets even if you are a victim), 50% chances of divorce with roughly 70% of the divorces initiated by women, etc.

  Oh, so women have no control over their feelings?  Then would that not be one more valid reason for men for not marrying?  Why should a man put himself at the mercy of a woman's feelings/emotions/moods?  

  As for you being sorry for my situation of divorce, where the heck have I ever stated that I have been married?  Wrong person!

  There you have it.

  Have a nice day,

  Bobol

[shell921]

I have read that more couples divorce after years of living together than the ones who do not. Still, I think it is important to live together before marriage. But no woman should move in with a man without a commitment to marry--if that is what she wants. Get an engagement ring and set a date BEFORE moving in together. Never give any man 100% of your time, attention & love unless he is committed to you and only you.

But gals--more women are dis-satisfied with marriage than men are! Women have to carry & birth the children and most mothers are the primary caregivers of children. Many young women think marriage and children is a fairy tale way to live and that it's all sunshine and lollipops! Then they have a rude awakening. It's a lot of hard work!

[Guitararose]

Well I guess my situation is just like so many on this forum but I still want to hear whatever advice anyone has for me. My boyfriend and I have been very happy together for almost three years and have lived together for almost two of those years. We have never had a major fight and have a great life together.

Many of our friends are getting married and we'd never discussed the topic. I finally brought it up and found out that just as much as I'm for it, he's against it. We both cried and cried together and said we didn't want to break up but know we should. We both agreed it's not fair for me to be in a relationship that's actually keeping me from meeting someone who will want to marry me. He was so sweet even during this conversation but would not change his feeling on the marriage thing.

I've never been in a relationship this serious and the thought of losing him makes me want to just forget marriage. Being that this all happened within less than 24 hours ago, I am in a state of shock. I feel like my insides are being ripped out and I can't stop crying. I just want to stay with him forever and give up on marriage so that I don't have to feel this way. I don't want to end up with no one.

What should I do? Forget about marriage and be in a loving relationship or end it in order to possibly find someone who wants to commit?

[shell921]

Your boyfriend? Your profile says you are a MALE. Is same sex marriage legal where you live?

[Guitararose]

haven't updated my profile yet, I'm a female.

[shell921]

You haven't updated your profile? So you used to be a male but now you are a female? I'm confused. Ok whatever --!! First of all, why do you want to get married? Do you have to have a child? Marriage is not really a good deal for women.

[shell921]

Get the book called "Why Men Marry *******" by Sherry Argov.
Read it cover-to cover.

You need to move out and get your own place. You should never
live with a man if you want to get married until you have a ring and a commitment.
After you get those things, ok move in. So you need to get out. And never give any man
who is not committed to you 100% of your time, love & attention. You have made yourself
too available and he doesn't VALUE you. Have some standards for yourself.
Do you know that Dr Phil's wife of 33 years--Robin--walked out on him after they had
been dating for 2 years? Yes indeed - she wanted to get married and he said he wasn't ready. So she
broke it off. A few months went by, he realized he missed her and they got back together
because Dr Phil WOKE UP. Your boyfriend needs a wake up call honey.
Give him one. MOVE OUT.

[Guitararose]

Thanks, that is good advice.

[Luckybeans]

You already know that you will not be able to forget about this; it will poison your relationship with him from now on. You can stay with him and pretend it doesn't matter and paper over the crack it's caused because you love him, or you can walk, suck up the pain and then cry it all out and in some months or years meet the man who will want to marry you so badly that he will not be able to contain his excitement about it. If you were only a few months into your relationship this might all be different, but after a year or more into a relationship, a guy's feelings are not going to change and you will be sad and uncertain of the relationship forever if you stay with it. It also simply hurts too much when we know that the person we'd give the world to does not feel us at that same level. I hope you're OK.

[Luckybeans]

Regarding genders on profiles; when you first join this site it seems to automatically go to a "male" default setting. Mine automatically went to "male" too until I updated it a couple of hours after opening the account. This may clarify your query.

[something_doesnt_feel_right]

My boyfriend of 1 year just told me (WHILST AT A WEDDING) that he didn't see the point of getting married.

This is from a man who when he first met me, couldn't stop telling me about our future as husband and wife with a family etc...not to mention up until that moment, he had been throwing the 'wife' term to me as if to give the hint that it may happen soon (I assure you that he isn't diverting me away from him surprising me with a proposal)

Anyway, back to the wedding. When he told me he didn't see the point in marriage, I got upset and said 'I thought you said I was the one' and he walked off on me. I later spoke to him about it in the car on the way home from the wedding and he said he would marry me to make me happy. He said he loves me and knows he wants to spend his life with me but doesn't see the need in formalising it.

It's a few weeks later now and I brought it up for the first time since the night of the wedding. I tried to tell him all of the reasons why marrying him was important to me and again he said he'll marry me to make me happy. This just doesn't sit with me well. I asked why he changed his mind about not having the need to get married and he went on about how marriages end in divorce and questioned why if two people are in love and happy they need a piece of paper.

I'm so confused.

[alma2011]

I feel more sad and frustrated when i found this site, why many mens doesnt want to be married?
My bf and I got the same issue we are dating for more than 2 yrs now we are in a longdistnce relationship,he is 45 yrs old and im 35 yrs old, i never been married and he lived with someone for past 10 yrs without marriage. My problems is exactly with all your problems, my bf doesnt want to get married and i really want to get married i am very family oriented woamn and i want family,. Like all of you girls i really love my bf and its very difficult to break up with him i also dont doubt his feeling with me but he is a marriage phobic, he keep explaining to me that marriage is not a good idea bcoz of his experienced his parents are divorced, aunt, uncle. He is willing to have a child with me and build up family and we already put up a biz that he financed but whatever i do i cant convince him to get married i thought if i do good to im i can change his mind but not. Im also not sure if my family will accept that if i live with him without marriage i came fom religious and family oriented family. I am not eager to have a nice and expensive wedding ring also not a wedding i will be contented in marriage also not an expensive wedding, i just want his 100% commitment, i am also not interested in what he has ii already told him that i am ok with pre-nup. I kow he appreaciated how good i am with him i also appreciated him but i am not satisfied to be a forever gf i want to be a wife and i still beleive in marriage..for those who moved on and broke p with your bf i admired you for your being tough..

[specialmom]

Hi there.  You've posted your reply on an old post.  Often these go unnoticed.  You can start your own thread by going to the top of tis page and hitting 'post question".

don't be sad as there are many many men out there that DO want to get married.  You just have to be open to making choices that put you in a position to finding them.  

If marriage is important to you and your current boyfriend is saying he does not want to marry, he is not a good choice in boyfriend for you.  I hope you are able to see that and move on.

We date in order to find the right person for us.  When there is a fundamental difference in lifestyle, that is a reason to break up.  When a man says he doesn't ever want to get married, believe them the first time they say it and move on if it is our desire to be in a married relationship.

You are still young and maybe you want children????  Leave now and look for someone that values marriage as you do.  I have a gazillion married friends (meaning all those men WANTED to get married) and have been married for 12 years myself.  There are plenty of men that view life the way you do.  

so, take care of yourself and get what you want in life.  Move on and find a man that will want the same things as you do.  peace and luck to you

[munchichi]

Hi all,

I hate to say it, but reading all these posts made me feel a little better. I have been with my boyfriend for over 4 years and lived together for over 3 years now. We have a blended family, I have 2 children from a previous marriage and he has 1 also from another marriage. I think we have a happy relationship, we strive to make a happy healthy home for our kids and we have blended quite successfully. Unfortunately he seems no more motivated to marry me now than he was on our first date. This is a huge heart ache for me because not only have I invested my heart, but my children are quite attached as well. I want to be married, I want to feel like he thinks I am worth marrying and I have the most unpleasant feeling he doesn't feel I am. He says he loves me, but sometimes I wonder if he only keeps me around for financial reasons and because I (if I must say) am a fantastic mother and his child is very attached to me. I want to be with someone who loves me and is proud to be with me, I want to be "Mrs. ------" instead of just "the girlfriend". I want the world to see we are committed to one another.  
I have cried a lot, I have choked back so much disappointment, and I am so sick of it all. Maybe he's happy living like we're married without any real commitment, but I am not. Also its not that I just want to be married to just anyone, I just want to be with someone who loves and cares about me enough to make the commitment to me. I'd rather be alone than strung along. He says "but where am I going?" well maybe both our names are on the lease but our relationship certainly isn't "going" anywhere. That's another thing, he'll sign a lease with me, buy a car with me, financially tie himself to me, he's fine with the idea of getting a 30 year mortgage with me, but I'm not worth the commitment of marriage?!?!? THE HECK?
I could go on and on and on. What it all boils down to is I'm going through all the motions of being married but I'm not worth the damn slip of paper.
I have been through the whole range of emotion in regards to this issue and all I am left with is despair. I am a good person, I am honest, I try to do everything right, I follow all laws, rules, regulations and I feel I am entitle to be happy. I feel I deserve to having a partner who loves and values me enough to make the commitment to me. I just wish he felt I was worth the commitment, but apparently I'm not.

[Bobol]

  Just a few words regarding this discussion.  Lets's face reality.  Marriage is NOT a sign of commitment.  If it really were, there would be no divorce possible.  In other words, you would be married FOREVER, regardless of what happens.  Nowadays you can get married and then file for divorce the next month without so much as having to justify or prove anything.  Just claim irreconciliable differences.  Remember, it's called no fault divorce and women asked for it!

  More and more men are seeing that marriage is a losing proposition for them and walking away.  If women really want to get married, it is them who should petition to have the laws changed in order to make them fair to men (see my previous posts).  As an example, alimony forever to a wife after 10 years of marriage is not all that attractive to men.  Ditto for false domestic violence accusations that go unpunished, false paternity claims, etc.

  Seems that men are freeing themselves from the provider's role, gaining their freedom.  Some people apparently do not like it.

  Best,

  Bobol

[loveblind]

Im 44 my bf is 43.  We were both in marriages that were over 14 yrs.  He has 2 young teenage kids, I have three independent adults and 1 teenage daughter. His ex took him for a lot financially and gets a whopping check, most alimony and lives with her fiance.  He tells me he loves me so much and he believes he would do anything for me.  I take that monitarily, since money is his prize savings and my income is null compared.  

After well over a year and me being the one doing over night stays at least 3-4 days a week, he finally stayed over 2 nights because my car was in the shop.  He helped repair it, and gave me 15 for gas when it was $4/ gal.  I have also given cash when he had no pocket money.  I have helped him replace and make his house look like a home, helped his kids see reasons for making good grades, yet the ex and his kids tell him what a useless dad and always emotionally blackmailing him, just because he has to work or Im there, even though I incorporate them and love them.

I told him he needs a wife and I need a husband (it would be nice to have a fixer, but he doesnt fix my stuff), but that means nothing unless you want one.  I can no longer participate as his playing house wife.  I over stepped my boundries and it hurts when he wants me to scadaddle while helping him, before the kids arrived if the kids wanted to come home instead of stay over at a hotel and have a family nite.

He rarely kisses me deeply and I brush several times a day.  He says he loves me, but love is an emotional investment.  Ive known it would be a mistake to move in with him, but this strand validated that.  Id sign a prenupt, but for a man as traditional as he is, he sure wants a claus in his traditions because Ive been filling his needs.  Marriage is a risk, but so is Love and the Sex.  

[specialmom]

Hi there, welcome to the forum.  Honestly, I think it sounds like you may need to release yourself from this relationship.  The practical issues aren't working for the two of you I'm afraid.  Love is but an emotion in my opinion.  

I would move on and find someone with less baggage.  good luck

[blueberry197]

I was in the same situation with a man, I stayed with him for 15 years in his "unready" state of marriage... he made a lot of excuses as to why he wasn't ready.  In the end I hated him for it, I thought it was disrespectful and mean.  I did leave him and he begged me to come back, he even said ok we can do the marriage and family thing if that will make you happy, but by that time I was so angry at him for denying it to me for so long (and mad at myself for accepting his excuses when I knew I really did want to be married) that I said no.   6 months after we broke up, he got engaged to someone else.  and married her and still calls me to reconcile with him.
It made me realize that I don't think he really loves anyone, he loves whomever will put up with him and make him not feel so alone in life as his current wife isn't as "caring" as I was with him (basically she doesn't put up with his garbage).  It did a lot of damage to my self esteem to stay in that relationship for as long as I did, I wish I had been smarter and stronger and left earlier on to date other guys and figure myself out without the pressure of having to make someone else happy.  
I would honestly recommend leaving this guy.  I'm sorry, I know that's harsh but I'm in my 40s now, I don't have children which I do wish I had had, and I've seen this happen with quite a few of my friends.  Men actually really like security, they like a woman (ANY woman) to be there for them.  I have a hard time deciphering whether men who want to date me actually like me or just don't want to be alone.  
I am dating someone now who totally confirms that, he's been married a couple of times because he doesn't like to be alone!!  He realizes this about himself and we have nice boundaries and both trying to figure this thing out, and he's a million times more affecionate, more loving and respectful and caring than my long term ex ever was so I don't regret leaving at all.  Sometimes its the fear of being on our own and facing the big bad world alone that makes us stay in unhappy situations.  Consider your life and what you want for yourself.  You only have one life.  

[blueberry197]

get a career, a fabulous place of your own, the car you want, have a great group of fabulous and trustworthy friends and trust me you will have a ton of men begging to marry you.  
be fearless

[toffee100]

Dear
At first I want to wish you have a best life. I am a man and I want to tell you that history tells that every man needs a women, someone to complete him. Men need women. I am in love to a dutiful girl. I want to live, work and do everything possible to satisfy her needs, I want us to have babies and raise them well.

I have never seen that girl. But I know she is there somewhere. I believe in destiny and I prayed to God to grand me my wish. So I am waiting and I believe that when the time is right then I will propose to her without to wasting time. It is west of time if you believe that you have to spend time with people to get to know them.

If it is the beginning of a relationship then the man can cover himself with a beautiful mask.

And if you try him and wait for a long time then he might change.

Men do get angry sometimes and so does women. But if you are married then you can stand each other before just leaving each other.

At the end I want to advice you that every man need a specific key for him to give himself to you. So find out which key it is.

[kittykat675]

Hi

I must admit reading this thread has made me feel better that I'm not the only one out there with this problem!

My boyfriend and I have been together for almost 2 years now, lived together for 9 months. We have a really good relationship and are very much in love tho life can get us down sometimes we help each other through, we bicker more now we live together and we're quite opposite personalities but I wouldn't change a thing, he puts up with my **** and I put up with his because no relationship is perfect, and most of the time we're really happy. He's sensitive, he make's me laugh and we can talk about pretty much anything. I spent a long time being single dating and he is the first person I have really connected with.

It may seem a little early to be panicking about marriage and kids but the subject has come up, I never used to dream about marriage but I'd always thought I would get married as I wanted a stable background to have a family. My boyfriend tends to rebel from anything traditional and sees marriage as a piece of paper that would just be expensive if anything ever went wrong with our relationship...this really hurt me at first, but after considering long and hard how I felt, I thought that I could come to terms with not getting married after all it really is just a piece of paper I know he loves me and wants to commit to me in other ways, why should I throw away something so good just because of tradition and because it's society's norm... We are honest and open with each other (maybe too honest sometimes!) I'm not scared he's going to walk out the door and leave me, I trust him to be honest with me.

The real blow for me came when the subject of children came up recently, we've skirted around the issue before, but I've been struggling lately not knowing how he feels, one of my friends is lately married and pregnant, all my other friends talk about marriage and kids a lot so it's very much right under my nose atm.

The final push for me to ask exactly how he felt was the other week we had gone to a friends for dinner - an older couple with a little girl - they asked us if we ever thought we'd have kids, again we skirted the issue that night. But I felt like I needed to ask how he really felt the next morning...he explained he'd always felt that he didn't want to contribute to our already massively expanding population (he is very environmentally conscious something I've always loved about him...though I'm starting to feel a little different about atm!) he says he wants a family and would love to adopt, something I've always wanted to do but he is not sure how he will feel about having a baby of our own when the time comes. He's just not sure how he feels about it all, he doesn't know how he will feel a few years down the line, but where does that leave me?

As I have said I would love to adopt, but I want the experience of having my own child too, just once. I feel very upset and uncertain about where we are heading, I talked to a friend and got some outside perspective which helped, and told him after where I felt I stood which is that I would like to get married but I feel I can live without it, but not without a family I need children in my life and I couldn't forgive him if we just carried on and never had a family. Adoption would be great but there are no guarantees you'll be accepted.

He says he needs time to think and I suggested he should talk to someone and get some perspective on the situation too. I want to make us work but I feel if I'm compromising shouldn't he too? I know this is difficult for him as he feels very strongly about it, but he loves me and wants to please me too... The sad thing is neither of us want to break up we're not angry with each other. Do I give it time? We're still young I don't know how he'll feel in the long run, I'm just scared that I won't be able to just wait see where we end up as it's very much on my mind atm. I can't stop myself from bringing it up when what I should do is leave him to think about it, and not pressure him into making a decision.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.