My husband's co-workers were teasing him about not going for massages with them. He works in a Wall Street firm and needless to say the tension is crazy. Apparently these guys go for massages and the girls massage everything causing the men to ejaculate. My husband and I think this is wrong if you are married. Well you can not believe the debate this caused. Inno way are we bashing massages. I too go for them - but there is a line and we think that kind of massage is cheating. What do you men and woman think - are we prudes???
Wow. I think that's cheating just as much as the guys picked up a street hooker and got a hand job. I've only had one massage, and it was at a very nice resort and the masseuse was an older plump woman - do standard massage parlors offer handjobs? Wow again. I can't believe those guys don't think of that as cheating.
i am a massage therapist and rock you know darn well it isnt a standard. is it cheating? he(( yes it is cheating. it is paying for sex. whether sex , bj or hand job its sex. unfortunatly men are stupid and they think because they work hard and are stressed they can use stupid **** as an excuse. i am as professional as they get. i have a great client base because of that. thank god your husband doesnt agree with those men. how would they feel if they went to a male therapist and he did the same for her? i bet they wouldnt like that!! massage therapy is just that. i hate the terms parlors. some people need to open their eyes and see there is great benefits to massage THERAPY.
I definitely agree with both of you that there is such a thing as a real massage and it can be ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh sssooooooooo wonderful. I just had one when I was away, from a young girl and I wanted to ask her if she'd come back home with us and move into our guest room :-) She was amazing. I also agree it's cheating - you are letting another person touch a sacred part of your being that is reserved for that one person that you suppossedly love. You are actually coming with that person. They try to say that they are not touching the other person, there is no communication, no sexual relations. Well that is pretty sexual to me!
I am usually extremely reserved - but we can talk here.... I did that to two guys in my life and I married them both. The girl is a ***** and the guy is a selfish, self centered, shallow person that does not give one sh*t about the feelings of the person he is supposed to cherish.
I agree with the other posters as well. I, too, would consider this cheating and unacceptable in my marriage. I commend your husband for standing strong against his friends at work- that has got to be tough with all of that pressure and no one else standing up for it with you! I don't know how these men wouldn't consider it cheating, but like someone else said, they "deserve" it with all of their stress, and I am sure they have it very thoroughly justified. Keep standing strong! :)
Well we all agree so far - so I am curious as I often go to functions with the wives and significant others - do you think their wives should leave them? Or just make them stop? Not that I am going to say anything to them. I am 41 years old and do not run as fast as I did. lol
I would be surprised if their wives knew the full situation and were perfectly okay with it. If it was me personally, I would probably discuss it with my DH as to why he was doing it and if he intended to continue. If he chose to, I'd leave because that kind of behavior is unacceptable to me. If he quit, I would require counseling because I am not the forgiving type and something like that would be a betrayal of my trust. It might also depend how long he had been doing that behind my back and how much money had gone down the drain for his "activities." What other wives would do, I have no idea. If they can forgive, that's great- as long as they can REALLY forgive. Holding it over someone's head the rest of yours and theirs life is no way to live. Hope that answers your spin off question.
It is amazing what men will say or do to try to condone their actions. I know a guy who is very religious and is cheating on his wife online with other women. However, it isn't cheating because it isn't real... according to him. 2 points for effort but that's it !
massage therapy isn't cheating if you were to ask me. but, as the world knows it, it depends on what kind of a man your are. massage are a much help, done eversince before.
now, lets not put the blame on man alone since nothing can happen if the women massagers or whatever they call it, helps the deed. i mean, lets face, its a double blade sword. you may not know what happens if you (we men) went to it and let a sexy woman do her thing and make us horny..
but a much better action may be,i guess, is the MAN-TO-MAN AND WOMAN-TO-WOMAN service.. so no cheating or such can happen again. but, anyways, we all know this is not how the world goes..so sad....
You do not know how right you are!!! I was at a dinner party next to a partner's wife. I knew we had nothing to talk about but tried anyway. She goes on to tell me that her husband lets her spend between $2,500 - $3,000 a month on clothes - no questions asked. She can spend more but then he may ask her why. And she in return does not bother him. I am sorry but basically she is a one man h**ker. He buys her off to accept whatever he wants to do. My husband is not a partner and making that kind of money but even if he was we are not like them. Both of us came from families that got by financially by working their tails off. And we too work very hard. And rest assured I would not accept that life style for any $$.
Can I ask, as you are our the only one representing the male side - why do you think it is not cheating? The woman is giving him a "rub and a tug" to be polite. I am not asking in a hostile way - I am just curious to see what makes you think that way. My husband's friends had no idea why they felt that way.
manners manners.. massage is cheating.. as i say, listen well, IT DEPENDS ON HOW THE INVOLVE PERSONS ARE INTO. if they felt horny and ends up making love then that's gonna be cheating. thats a case of cheating then.. but if they are just there to get a massage to take the stress out then thats good, no cheating there. and dont just go and generalized that men are cheaters just because they go to massage place. you were saying men are pigs, which shows you've been living with a pig for too long now. cut loose. not all men are maniacs.. cheating is in every aspect of life.. dealing with it is the issue here.. not place it self.. if men or women alike are strong enough to be proffesional then no cheating would ever occur. but then, i know its way to possible..
Though this line was ambiguous: "if men or women alike are strong enough to be proffesional then no cheating would ever occur. but then, i know its way to possible.."
Are you saying that it's possible for men and women to be strong enough NOT to cheat?
Let's not forget about male ego and how many of these massage-seeking men are probably bragging to their buddies for an ego-boost when nothing may have really happened EXCEPT a regular massage. lol, without offending any males here, I think guys can get into sort of a "pack mentality" about these things (so can women!) and so some things get hyper-exaggerated.
"and dont just go and generalized that men are cheaters just because they go to massage place. you were saying men are pigs, which shows you've been living with a pig for too long now. cut loose. not all men are maniacs.."
Like I said......
Well, the only one that needs to listen better is, of course, you. Now, READ C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L-Y.......ok?
Quote: 'S-O-M-E men are pigs.....and don't even know it.......'
S-OOOOOO-M-E........but then again...........if you don't know how to read correctly, how can I expect you to have common sense and think logical, that only explains why you globalized the group I mentioned and INCLUDED yourself in the category of pigs.
If you like to assume I am living with a pig, just because women live with people like the men that go to get this 'massage', then go ahead, if that makes you happy.....now, you can smile.....
Thank goodness there are still some men that have morals and a brain.......altho, few, as you can see......or not.
A therapeutic massage is perfectly healthy and darn good for the body...but.......READ......a massage that makes men EJACULATE, without even having sex............THEN, that is cheating......was that clear enough for you?
i just want to know this. if they don't think it's cheating. if it's not 'sex'; if it's just part of the massage, would they let a MALE massage therapist use the same massage technique? that would be MY question to these men. i bet not.
My ex husband went to one of those Asian massage parlors. When I saw all the receipts I questioned him but he told me it was to help his back (he has back problems). Shortly after this one of our friends told us what he was doing, that more goes on on those places than just massaging. How was I to know? This place was new in town and I thought it was innocent. He confessed and said he wouldn't do it again, but I never trusted him after that. He left suddenly a few months later because he said he couldn't stand me being suspicious of him all the time. I wanted to give him another chance, but he wouldn't hear it and I found out through his brother that he was still hanging around the massage plcace.
It sounds like you've got a good husband. I hope he stands firm on his beliefs about these full-body massage and doesn't give into pressure from his job and friends. You're right, they're no good.
Its six of one, half dozen of the other.... Men do have plumbing issues that women do not have. But women have sexual issues that men do not. Is the garden tub whirlpool with lights out and candles, cheating?
Lets face it, mens bodies continuously make liquid that must be regularly released, or else. Most women I've known are totally unaware or insensitive to this medical fact. Reseach has shown that men who do not regularly release the fluid are more likely to have cancer of the prostate.
In marriage, most women won't provide a release service for the poor man, and instead its only sex when the women is in the mood. So men must either masturbate or find a rub and tug. And the guy is cheating becuase he is only doing what is natural for him because his wife won't????!!!!!!
Cut the guys some slack.
If women could only release their menstrual fluid once out of the several day period. they would be crying out loud!
so polo that's what the wife's there for right...just to keep the man sexually satisfied? i thank god my husband doesn't think like you. if your wife's not in the mood why not just masturbate? if the man's not in the mood and the woman is.....we don't go looking for a massage parlor to have them...help with release.
either way having another woman "massage" a man is cheating. why can't these men get a massage with their penis' left in their boxers? if you can't keep it put away then obviously you don't love your wife that much. if you did you'd be able to control those "natural instincts" to go out and have anything with a vagina either give you a hand job, ** or have sex with them.
Not all men need to release all the time. My husband only releases once a month. Not because I am not in the mood but because he isn't in the mood. If I found out he was going to one of these places, divorce papers would be signed the next day.
A massage with "full release" is an amazing and wonderful thing! It is however, in this culture considered sexual and illegal. In some asian countries, it's perfectly normal and just part of the massage. I've had a few friends not know this and were suprised at the service that was offered at some places we been temporarly stationed at. It's up to the man to refuse this service at a place where it's part of the culture, and it's more than up to him to refuse to be lead into these services in a place where it's illegal. This is assuming that the man is in a relationship. If the man is single and it's done where it's not illegal, that's another situation. But, about my first statement, if your partner can do this for you, that's a super great thing. A full massage, a little erotic stuff and a sex act with someone you love where you can just lay there and be spoiled, that's great stuff and should be recriprocated when possible. I think there's a lot of wife/girlfriends that feel this is too much to ask of them, and some men feel it's ok to seek it somewhere else. Therefore; that's why it's acceptable in come countries. But, that all goes along with culturally different views on cheating, gender equality, and other issues.
Someone asked if it would be fine for the guy to get a "full massage" from a male. I don't think that really makes the point. Since some "pigs" will take what they can from whomever than can get it.
My question, would it be ok for their wife/girlfriend to get a full massage from someone else. A lot of guys will say "heck yes" if it's from another girl (more "pigs") but most will be hesitant to allow another man to stimulate their wife/girlfriend's sex organs and bring them to orgasm as part of a massage.
I use this test for most forms of "cheating", as to if it is or not. I always ask someone to see how they would feel if their special someone did the same thing, how would they feel?
Not all places are like that. There are a lot of legitamate massage places. However, anyplace that has "asian", "parlor", or "full" in the name should be considered a place that might have darker things going on.
Men have "plumbing issues," huh? So basically you're saying that men are built like involuntary machanical devices that need to be maintained, rather than a human being with the ability for self-control and a conscience? Interesting.
I wonder why I've never stumbled upon a medical study pointing to the increase of prostate cancer in every male that hasn't had regular opportunity to "release his fluids" to maintain his "plumbing."
Could you tell me where you found the medical research you claimed to have studied? I've never heard anything about such a thing as what you've said of "releasing fluids" as a requirement to not get prostate cancer. And I've read a lot of medical studies, especially about cancer, as it runs in my family.
Also, I just have to bring attention to the comment about women menstuating. This is a completely involuntary, non-sexual female bodily function. We do not require sexual stimulation to menstruate, whereas it's quite the opposite for things like your "plumbing issues." So that's a rather lame argument.
If male "plumbing" requires the sexual maintenance you mention, and the committed partner isn't in the mood, there are ways to take care of your needs without having to seek such a personal, intimate stimulation from someone who isn't committed to you on that level. That's the whole reason for committment that's so personal and intimate--to promise to keep it that way. If it's not working, then do something to communicate with each other to solve the problem.
Don't just fix your "symptoms" without finding out the real cause of the problem.
my husband got "happy endings" every time he went for a massage. Then he started paying prostitutes to come to his office to give him blow jobs. That progressed to full on sex with prostitutes. He had a "relationship with a pro for 6 months before I found out. Happy endings never end happily in a committed relationship.
"Cheating" is not a well-defined term. I'd consider it cheating if my partner was emotionally involved with someone else. I don't consider it cheating if he goes off and gets a hand job from some massage parlor. Who the hell cares. I'd be upset if he had dinner with her and stared dreamily into her eyes than if he gets a hand job.
Definitely cheating. That is something that should be shared by a couple and a couple alone (whether husband and wife or bf and gf). If you are in a committed relationship and someone else is sexually satisfying you then you are cheating. Point blank.
Many of the responses used the term committed relationship. Well, is it such a leap in logic that that comittment includes meeting or satistying the sexual desires (within reason of course) or your spouse?
When one initiates sex, can't it be considered a compliment? Doesn't it say I want and desire you physically that I have and am committed to you? Is the sexual act a negative or unpleasant experiance. My wife and I enjoy sex often. We find as we hope others do that it keeps us connected emotionally and spiritually, we become one. Its fun, it feels good, helps us sleep afterwords and its cheap marriage insurance. lol
If one spouse's sex drive exceeds the others is it really that bothersome or difficult to provide them with physical release, whether they "need" or desire release. We feel that sex to the marriage is like oil for a door hinge. A well oiled hinge works smoother and eaiser. There is very little skreeching or sticking and will likely last a lifetime. Look at it this way, say a wife likes to play tennis often for exercise and fun, but her husband doesn't care to play very much. She has the option to find another partner to play with, problem solved.
However, with sex it would be immoral and a breaking of the marrige vows to seek sexual satisfaction outside the relationship. That said the spouse is thier only option (morally that is) for sexual fulfillment.
So to answer that question, Yes, thats what his (all) wives are for, (the husbands sexual outlet) but of course not JUST that. Just as the husband is for (among other things ) her sexual outlet. We are each others sex objects, is that a bad thing!
When you marry (truly COMMITT) thats what we are signing on for.
i feel bad for your wife. i'm not a sexual outlet. if my husband EVER refered to me as his sexual outlet he'd be smacked upside the head so hard and so fast. i'm his partner, his equal. if i'm not in the mood...he can have fun with mother thumb and her four daughters. i don't remember ANYWHERE in my vows did it say "you will become your husbands sex slave and get him off whenever he wants." he respects me and i him. if i say no, i'm no in the mood. he drops it. we cuddle and go to sleep. if i want it and he's not in the mood. it's dropped, we cuddle and sleep. there is no "well...i'm not in the mood but please oh master let me get you off."
Just thought of something else, from what you wrote it seems respect is only shown or given to the one who is'nt in the mood, but its not shown to the one who is in the mood. Also, in my first post I did state " meet thier desire (within reason)" not "whenever". Its sad that you consider giving some pleasure to the man who has committed to you and forsaken all others, when you don't feel like it, an act of slavery instead of an act of love and tenderness.
sex is a mutual sharing of each other's love in a physical way..though it's been a while for my wife and I, when she was not in the mood and I was I would NEVER try to force myself on her and I would understand her not being in the mood...she worked in a nursing home dealing with alzheimer/dementia patients 8 hours a night (2nd shift) and I could certainly understand her not being in the mood after 8 hours of that..I found when we were more sexually active that foreplay started well before we went to bed...a little touch here and there, a hug.."honey, your hair looks great tonight" "I'll cook dinner...you go relax" or "you just got home from work..what can I get for you?"...a quick hug and a kiss on the cheek, etc...resulted in fewer "I'm not in the mood" comments...nonetheless..a woman not being in the mood to me shows no indication of lack of love or desire to please her husband..there are other ways than sex...it is not a woman's "duty".
if i've had a hard day and say no...and he wants it...no. i take care of two toddlers from sun up until sun down while cleaning, cooking, taking care of the animals. by the end of the day i'm exhausted. if he would EVER attempt to force himself on me..nuh uh...end of marriage. that is as big a no-no as cheating. just because i'm not in the mood or he's not doesn't mean there is lack of love. whether we have sex 7 times a week or once a month...we respect each others boundaries and feelings. we don't pester and persist until we get our own way. we RESPECT each other.
Again, people are missing key words and adding some!
I never used the word shall or that a spouse should or can "force" the other to accomodate.
I did state "within reason".
You described your wife's job as basically tough or unpleasant help me if i'm wrong there. Yet she reports for work (likely 5 days a week 40 hr?), does her job without a lot of complaint or resentment i'll assume for sake of argument.
Just like will say you or me, the person down the street, whoever, takes out the trash, gets up on cold winter mornings to go to work or perhaps mows the lawn..... whatever.
One could say I don't feel like taking out the trash or don't feel like paying the taxes.
I don't want to mow the lawn or who feels like getting out of bed on that cold winter morning. Thats fine and you have that right to say NO.
However, dont complain or whine when the house starts to stink because its full of trash or gee I got fired for not going to work. Why is that Sherif's deputy removing me from my house?? Lets make a jump, ohh my spouse is cheating on me, why? Or my wifes leaving me why??
The point is, as adults we have responsibilites we make committments etc.
If we can meet other committments or responsibilities with reasonable cheer and a good attitude can't we meet our spouses needs within REASON too?
This is not aimed at your marriage don't take it personally, you sound happy in your relationship, great!
I'm writing to those who give everything to thier job, kids, family, friends the club or even church and then the spouse gets whats leftover if there is anything left that is. One should make thier spouse a priority, note I didn't say THE priority. And I'm not just talking about sex (slave I guess as described by others), but the relationship as a whole.
you're seriously comparing sex to going to work or cleaning the house?
i do those things becaue i HAVE to. i take care of the children because they're our kids and because i want to. if i don't want to have sex or stay up later than what i have to to make sure the man is getting off....i won't. simple as that. and if he doesn't want to stay up having sex or making sure i'm getting off...he won't. it's all about respect. if one person doesn't want to the spouse should respect that. if the other person can not live without sex and needs it everyday and resorts to cheating...don't be surprised to get divorce papers. if you truly love that person you'll be happy with what you get. (and no i'm not a prude. my husband and i do do our thing.) if you can't be satisified with what you get or respect your spouse...obviously you married the wrong person.
From the scenario you described it would not be reasonable to expect be "accommodated". We agree its just, I think that were approaching the issue from opposite sides. Me from the side of, meet your spouses desires or needs wihin reason. And your position of I have my rights.
I just want to say that I'm completely in the middle of this debate. If my husband wants sex, part of my wifely duties (yes, I come from an irish catholic family, so sue me) is to satisfy his needs, and I WOULD feel like I was inadequate if he felt like he were not being satisfied. However, that being said, if he wants it and I don't, he'd better be willing to do enough in return to make the experience pleasant for me. not that he needs to do EVERYTHING for me, but he'd better spend some time getting me "ready and willing" or he's not doing HIS duties as a caring and loving spouse. And if I'm having a day where I absolutely know that him asking for sex would send me into tears (i'm 25wks pregnant) I give him fair warning "honey tonight's not a good night for me." So he can either spend a little bit of time before asking me getting me in the mood, or he knows that may tonight is not the best night to go for it.
I do think that you have a duty to satisfy your partner...but he has to be respectful and reasonable about it.
i was raised by a strong, stubborn and independent woman who always told me that no man has any right to make me do something i don't want to do. whether he's a stranger, boyfriend or husband and my husbands mother is the same way. she raised him to be respectful of women and to appreciate us. and he does. i'll be raising my boys the same way (not to be independent women....). to respect all women and that when she says no...that means no. of course i hope they'll have the common sense to know when a woman is being independent and abusive. (yes i believe a woman can be abusive just as much as a man can)
you may have a good point there, penswriter. I may be spoiled in my thinking because my husband, too, is respectful of me and MY needs. I may feel obligated to satisfy him, but that may be because he doesn't ask when he knows I'm not up to it. I guess it's all a matter of respecting one another, combined with living up to the roles you swore to one another you would fill when you got married/became committed.
Why doesn't penswriter appreciate her husband? Because she won't give him sex when she's not in the mood? There are more things in a relationship that can lead to appreciation other than having sex. Yes it's important and I'm sure she doesn't walk around with a chastity belt but she doesn't have to lay there and let him take it when she's too tired from being a wife and a mother. I think that's quite unfair of you to say. You don't live in their household, you don't know how their marriage is.
This one is simple, if a man or woman is married, goes for a massage and they massage everything to the point of ejaculation or reach an orgasim, YES, it is adultery, because someone else has touched you in a lustful sexual manner and although some people see this as not harmful, it's wrong and automatically adultery!
mami...what you don't have chastity belt??? you HAVE to keep the hoo hah under lock and key!!! (yes....i was being sarcastic. lol)
no i don't have daughters. just boys. i won't be having anymore children...two is all i ever wanted and God blessed me with two little boys. i do have female furbabies. they're spayed so they don't need four legged males.
Well, interesting statement Mami, lets see I said
"Many of the responses used the term committed relationship. Well, is it such a leap in logic that that comittment includes meeting or satistying the sexual desires (within reason of course) or your spouse?" does that mean on demand period? No, As I said Within Reason. So, I guess i'll spell it out, if your tired that would not be within reason. That said An attitude by either spouse such as "Yes honey, i'm committed to you provided i'm in the same mood" is weak and selfish.
Also, I never said Penswriter does not respect her husband, in fact I simply responded to her stating her husband was raised to appreciate and be respectful of women, great by the way, and that she was raising her sons the same way, great. I just asked "
Just curious, if you have daughter(s) are you raising them to be respectful of men and to appreciate them? Were you?"
I don't think that states you don't respect your husband.
Actually I affirmed or acknowledged her happy marriage with the statement
"If that is what works for you and your husband, great.
With consideration to your statement " There are more things in a relationship that can lead to appreciation other than having sex." I think your absolutely RIGHT.
To do that we should learn our spouses particular love language be it Afirmation, Time, Gifts, Service or Touch. And then "speak" to them in the thier language not our own. And hopefully when shown that love and consideration they will return Love to us in our language.
For example and this is just an analogy Suppose our spouse is mowing the lawn on a hot July day and they ask for something to quench thier thirst.. You could give them a box of saltines out of the cubbard or you could mix up some frozen lemonade and hand them a tall glass. Both are gifts given with love but one will be received gratefully and be more satisfying than the other. Thats all I'm trying to say.
I agree and I also have addressed why, some couples may be unhappily married. Which in turn may result (though NEVER justified) in getting a "full" massage. Thats how all this started.
If someone feels the whys i've described apply to thier marriage thats thier decision and "judgement" not mine.
Just the statement alone saying "Just curious, if you have daughter(s) are you raising them to be respectful of men and to appreciate them? Were you?" sounds a little like you were questioning whether she was raised to respect men and appreciate men. Maybe I'm misreading that because I can't hear tone in your voice and can't indicate whether you were being curious or rude. I apologize if I did not get your true intentions to that statement. I don't think it's weak or selfish to tell your significant other that you are not in the mood. Some women have fluctuations in hormones and can't help the fact that they may not very well be in the mood. I have times when I want to and times when I don't and I would hope that my fiance respect that. Maybe he has to put more effort in when I'm not in the mood but I shouldn't have to feel obligated when I really don't want to.
I guess the same argument that you use as justification would hold true for stealing. If you didn't have it is alright to take it. I hold people to higher standards than that. If intimacy is an issue, then either it should be addressed within a marriage or the marriage should be over. My opinion.
Yes, that was a question whether she was raised to respect and appreciate men. Her statements in prior postings of what she would do to her husband or what she would tell him to do, were what prompted me to ask that question, yes, out of curiosity.
The way my wife and I handle the times one is in the mood but the other is not is that, shall we say "one scratches the others itch". Kinda like your hungry and you don't have the time or pehaps energy to cook, a quick fast food meal stops the hunger pangs or you could say "satifies" the need or desire. We don't consider this "slavery" , "demeaning" and its certainly not "forced". Its a compromise bourne out or our love and committment thats meets the need or desire of one with minimal imposition on the other.
Oh, by the way neither of us have any desire to go get a "full" massage. We just take care of that at home.
Was that a spin or just another single word taken out of context. Please read it again, And I believe The word you missed is capitalized "never".
Also I agree with your higher standard statement. The book "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman is a great tool for couples who want to improve thier marriage "to a higher standard" which, by the way, ( A close loving marriage) is one of the best gifts you can give your children.
my answer is simple. if i'm not in the mood...i'm not doing anything. if he's not in the mood...he's not doing anything. simple as that. if i don't want to do something...i'm not going to. if he doesn't want to do something...he's not going to. we RESPECT the fact that the other doesn't want to have sex, oral sex or any form of sex. what does the other person do? nothing. whatever we were doing prior to. do we sex "full massages"? no. just like if he's hungry and i'm not...he gets himself something to eat. he doesn't expect me to get up and stop working or taking care of the kids to fix HIM something to eat. just like if I am hungry I get MYSELF something to eat. i don't tell him, demand or ask him to stop what he's doing to get it for me. i'm self sufficient as is he. we don't depend on each other for every little thing.
I just realized that I am lucky that my husband sees me as an equal with feelings as valid as his.
In the "language of love" as I've read it, intimacy means more than just sex. And if one does not get their needs met in a regular way, it is often their fault as well as their partners. Perhaps they don't give what their partner needs so that they are in the mood.
Again, I'm so luck to have my husband and the healthy relationship that we have.
This is a hotly contested topic. I've never seen threads that have gone on for 3 years. I think most of the women need to have a reality check. Ashleen seems like the only one that is reasonable. I hope her marriage continues to thrive. The other women appear to go back to the barter and reward system. Don't think that because your guy hasn't pressured you for a couple of weeks or a month for sex that he's not thinking about it. Even if the guy is "respecting" your space the more distant memory your body is to him the more appetising other women appear to him. He may not act on it but you are certainly giving him a reason to look elsewhere. The idea that once a month is a reasonable amount of time is absurd.
And Yes going to a massage parlor is cheating. But a wife that doesn't recognize her husbands needs is a *****!
Who said once a month was acceptable? I don't think that is at all. But how about a man who can understand that when a woman is pregnant her hormones aren't exactly craving sex. Shouldn't he respect that? Why is it all about men and their needs? What about what women need? But that never seems to matter right? I think having sex a few times a week is satisfactory. Sex should be about passion and intimacy, not about just the act itself. Maybe if some husband's realized that and didn't just selfishly think of their own needs, sex wouldn't feel like a chore but more of a desire for women.
I think this post simply proves that Women are from Venus and Men are from Mars. We simply think with different parts of the anatomy it seems. Valid points on both sides of the fence. I do know this much, and that is if sex is the only common ground a couple has, watch out because as you get older your gonna need something other than what is between ones legs to survive. Sex between two consenting people with the same goal in mind is great! Nothing better! If it is one sided for any reason, it fails to be rewarding and ultimately will slack off. Regardless of the reason.Who really wants to have sex with an unwilling partner? Use the hand. And going to a full massage parlor to get your jollies says something about the person going to get it done moreso than the practice itself. IMO
I think people only justify things if they find it is something they might do. That is a question within themselves.
Having a loving marriage goes both ways and I certainly wouldn't want my husband to suffer if I wasn't in the mood . . . all the time. But he should divorce me before he goes off and messes around with another women. He made a committment to remain failthful. Blaming a spouse for his/her spouses infidelity is really shifting the blame in my opinion.
And hey------------ I think calling people that don't agree with you the B word is not called for.
It just boils my blood feeling like women have to be always fulfilling their duties...if that's what it's called....without any type of reciprocation for it or without men really giving women what they need. Relationships are a two way street and both have to give 100% full effort. Not just us alone. I wouldn't want to give my man sex if I wasn't receiving any love, affection or help. It's not about barter system, it's about feeling appreciated and not alone. If more men did that, then I guarantee you, women would be more ready and willing to want to have sex.
You missed jjbunning's point. I think "once a month" is hyperbole. The point is that sex is important for a man and that when it becomes a rare occurrence other areas of the relationship will break down rapidly. Also, the definition of rare depends on the couple but in my world once a week is okay. However, any extended period beyond this amount of time and I'm not okay. A guy will not want to cuddle, listen, or be "understanding". Newsflash, sex is important to a healthy relationship. What else makes a monogamous relationship different from just being roommates?
Also, you used the term "duty". I call it keeping each other happy. My wife has things she likes & I do it because duty calls and I want her to be happy.
You also said, " I wouldn't want to give my man sex..." Again, you proved jjbunnings point regarding a "reward & barter" system.
By the way, if your guy is pressuring you for sex when your pregnant then he's got issues. Sounds like you were giving us some insight into your situation.
This old post got WAY off topic! LOL! Well since I'm already here, I'll bite. Back to the OP's question of whether a full massage with happy ending is cheating, I would definitely say YES. I love to give my husband massages, along with happy endings. Not every massage ends that way, but I like to massage his strong body and it's a major turn on to both of us. We joke about massage parlors that offer these type of services and sometimes use it to our advantage (role play).
As for sex being an obligation or duty, I don't think that is the way Mami meant it. It only becomes an obligation or duty if she feels she has to do it and isn't in the mood at that time. She's a trooper because her man gets it a lot more than mine does! LOL!!!! I wish I could get it as often but with us working different shifts, it just isn't possible =(
Lol thanks imanaddict. I guess my point was missed. I said it goes both ways. I can't see myself giving my man sex if I'm being mistreated or ignored. If he's plopped infront of the tv when he's home and then jumps in bed expecting to get some well no thanks. Women need affection and love and attention to get in the mood. So that was my point.
if the woman gets her "full" massage, it wouldn't bother 90% of men, i guarantee you. this is the problem, a stark double standard. a husband would be happy that his wife is having a happy ending (resulting in her being more "pleased" in life, literally) and he would not mind in the least. strange the way human nature works. not always equal or similar in perspective, one gender to the other.
ok my question is, is there anyone out here that has had a husband that has been getting a full body massage, that has not been in agreement with it stay in the relatioship and how do you handle it. My husband has been going for quite a while with a happy ending. I say that is cheating and he says it is not. My view is when you are married that part of your body is for your partner not someone else that knows what you like and do not like. He has been having a massage by the same person and he gets to massage her also. So I really feel betrayed and hurt. I really love him and he says he is not going to go anymore but then I find out he still is. We have gone a few time together as a couple so I could see where actually happens. Its not really that bad because all he gets is a happy ending but in my book that is still cheating when you can touch and be touched by someone else. Just want to chat with someone that has been down this same road. We have been together for 18 yrs and yes we have sex quite a bit at least 3 or 4 times a week sometimes more so he cannot say I am not taking care of him. Just do not understand why men feel they have to have a massage and keep it a secret. If nothing is going on why do you have to hide it.
I agree with Rockrose. Yep, cheating it is----------- and when a spouse confronts another about it and they say they won't do it anymore but still do behind their back . . . it speaks to more than cheating. It is evidence of a significant marriage problem. Good luck sorting it out.
massage can leads to sins that a man can't live. Hypothetically speaking, the heat of the moment makes a man weak and can lead to more than a handjob. Only with an understanding wife and repentance, can a man achieve a path to a happy life; when you make a mistake once you must never return to it. The massage therapist is about business and can not give anything better than what a wife can offer. Take it from me (a man).... you might save yourself and others from unecessary pain.
Ha, i didn't read all of the replies, as i think the answer is a resounding, YES this is cheating. It grosses me out to think that a bunch of men are standing in line together, and having sex trade worker give them a "release". How disgusting is that? I feel so sorry for the sex trade workers, who had to be in a really tough place to make the decision to do this for a living. Imagine how filthy these poor women feel about themselves? Something went terribly wrong for them to objectify themselves in this manner. These guys need to look at these women as if they were their daughters, and refrain from destroying them further with their selfish needs. I can't believe that this is considered bonding for men? The fact that this is up for debate shocks me further. How could anyone justify this behavior and how can it be part of a business strategy? I can see getting together for team building but this is just GROSS. More people should stand up and be heard, maybe there will be less peer pressure that way. I think i would feel just as filthy as the sex trade worker. Too bad that money didn't go into the Christmas fund for disadvantaged youth!! Shame on them!!
I am a 41 year old male...married for 11 years with 2 kids. Over the last 11 years my spouse and I have rarely had sex more than once a week. More often than not it is at best once a month if things work out. The duration is getting longer as time goes on. In my opinion I have a very strong sex drive....so i masturbate to get the release. As I turned 40..something inside me tells me that time is running out . I have never had intercourse with any woman other than my wife. In fact, I was a virgin till I married her. Starting 2010 ....i have had 3 hand jobs as part of a full body massage every year...so a total of 9 incidents in the last 3 years. In 5 of those I have touched another woman intimately..breasts, never kissed any of them on the lips though. I have never had intercourse with any woman. I feel real guilty after these sessions since I think I have cheated her. I do not want to hold my spouse responsible for my actions since she is a very sweet person; I was fully aware of what I am doing...so no excuses for my behavior. Keen to get the views of men and women on this forum regarding my situation.
My boyfriend, of almost a year, just did this. He told me about it on New Years Eve He says it was a mistake, and that he won't do it again but doesn't really seem to think it was that serious. He is acting like I'm making mountains out of molehills.
I loved him a lot, and so want to forgive him, but I won't . Because, I don't want to be in a relationship where this keeps happening. And with his attitude, I can see that it will. Because, he will just expect me to get over it again, if he does it again.
I just want reassurance, especially from the men out there, that a) I'm not making a fuss about nothing and b) this is NOT the norm for people in relationships. And so, I should let him go, and hold out for the kind of relationship that I want.
I think people should ultimately evaluate their own conscience and situation and decide what is right for them; nobody will ever see eye to eye on a topic like this, especially men & women.
Since I am a man with a competent level of experience, I will attempt to speak for them.
For men, its not "the lack of sex". All men are highly-skilled masturbaters; they've carefully honed that skill since puberty. They can do it any time, and almost anywhere. Masturbation is a temporary release for us. BTW, most married men who masturbate are not fantasizing about their wives when they do it. Does that mean they are cheating?
What it comes down to, its more the fantasy and craving of having that awesome orgasm that the random, run of the mill masturbation or sex with their chosen partner no longer gives them. It varies in degrees, depending on the man, his drive, and how many mind-blowing orgasms he has experienced in his life. A man never knows how awesome the orgasm will be during the period in which he is stimulated; he can only hope and attempt to create the best possibility of it happening. Once a man does have a mind-blowing orgasm, he will want to do anything he can to experience it again. The chemicals and sensations released are mind-blowing; better than any drug. Problem is, those orgasms are so random, and I assume they vary with each man. Men never talk about this kind of thing, so there is little knowledge or baseline. I would compare it to a professional surfer's yearning to find that next bigger wave or a crack addict looking for the same high they got when they first smoked.
Women think it is a moral issue and a cop-out, but men are simply hardwired this way. They are biologically wired with a drive to reproduce with as many partners as possible. This is a survival function that once kept our species alive, and still remains present. Throw all of your bible and moral **** out of the window.
Women will never ever fully understand the intensity or amplitude of the random sexual cravings that men have, and most men will not take the time to explain it to them, for obvious reasons. Men are supposed to remain morally monogamous, yet WOW, we see men of the highest social and moral caliber deviate from this all of the time.
I think people should focus more on what points make a great marriage and relationship, rather than the semantics of what ruin them. A man or woman who are great parents to their children and provide for each other unconditionally speaks much greater volumes. In a perfect world, we would all have what we want in every aspect, and what defines "perfect" only becomes a longer list as society evolves.
Hi there. Sorry I missed your post as you tagged it onto a very old thread. I would not continue a dating relationship with someone who did this and minimized it. Dating is for sorting out who you want a long term commitment with and who you don't. He's shown you that he will cross a boundary you are not comfortable with and think nothing of it or own it as a problem to the relationship. If you allow it to be 'no big deal'---- you will be condoning it and then will have to live with a man that allows another woman to release him sexually.
i'd not consider a long term relationship with someone under those circumstances. I do hold my partner/husband to high standards and haven't been disappointed yet. So, please know that it is okay to say something is not alright by you. It would be a deal breaker for me. good luck
What a bunch of crap! There is NO justification for any man to allow another woman to perform any sexual act on him when he is married. Plain and simply it is cheating. It is adultery. It is breaking trust with his wife. It is hurting the one person in the world he shouldn't be hurting. More than that it is a blatant lack of respect for his wife.
I just found out my husband not only was going to massage parlors for a "happy ending" these past 5 years but he is also continuously watching porn on TV, his home computer and his work computer (he is in a private office so no one sees it).At first he wouldn't admit it.He said he never did anything wrong. But after showing him the proof of his infidelity (yes, that's exactly what it is) he had no choice but to come clean. I told him that I don't know if I will ever be able to place my trust in him again and that is the absolute truth. Yes, I still love him but that doesn't alter the fact that I will always be suspicious and extremely vigilant if I decide to stay in my marriage. Since it only happened 2 weeks ago,I am still in a state of disbelief since I trusted him these past 35 years and can't believe that all the times he was in bed with me he might have been with someone else earlier that day. He keeps saying he doesn't know why he did it and will never do it again but I can't seem to believe him. He can't even stop smoking cold turkey so I doubt he'll stop this cold turkey. But one thing is for sure. If I find out there is any more that he didn't come clean about, our marriage will definitely be over. No ifs, ands, or buts.
No one apparently thinks that women get O's from a massage....pathetic. So essentially getting a massage in general is cheating right? Men also can ejaculate without being physically touched in the nether regions. Are they then also cheating?
So, then would imagining a hot male/female while masterbating also be cheating?
Then I would have to say we are all guilty of cheating....
No wonder the divorce rate is so high.
I've gotten many a massage and no, never had an orgasm. Not part of what I paid for. In your fatasies, perhaps that is how you see massage but in reality, I'm just trying to relax and work the kinks out of my shoulders.
Only some massages end in a happy ending--- and when they do, it's cheating in my opinion.
I can't decide if a happy ending is cheating. My wife would certainly not approve, but she is also convinced they are included as part of my non-sexual massages. I've concluded this is a "don't ask, don't tell" situation and have, on occassion, enjoyed the extra service (from alternate massage providers).
I love my wife and would never want to hurt her. I also committed to a manogamous relationship when we got married (actually a number of years prior). I did not, however, commit to a life of celebacy. She simply doesn't want sex. On the rare occassion she agrees, it is obvious she doesn't really want to be there. I believe she loves me, she just doesn't enjoy the activity. Certainly oral and manual stimuation are off the menu. Missionary or nothing is her motto.
I wish side service was not necessary - being with my wife is better. I also don't like witholding information and sneaking. Unfortunately, this seems to be my only option. Does it step outside of my commitment to her? I'm not sure. If she refuses my requests, should I simply never enjoy such experiences for the rest of my life? I'm not talking about a few days, weeks, or even months. Sex occurs a couple times a year and side-activities don't. I've communicated this dissatisfaction many times over, but if her desire is not there, agreeing to go along isn't fulfilling. I'm not sharing my heart and emotions with others. The idea of another/different woman is of no interest to me. I'm simply finding attention for otherwise neglected needs.
Many posters here have commented that masturbation should be an acceptable substitute. Yes, this is good when an imbalance in drive exists, but it is not a good long-term solution. Hundreds of self-pleasuring experiences with no variety between is insufficient.
Many posters have mentioned respecting a wife's feelings and if she is tired or not in the mood to get over it. Again, this is fine for a while, but not a good long-term mindset. My experience has been one of growing frustration and resentment. After days/weeks/months of everything else being more important, I find it hard to put priority to her desires. I find myself too tired for the long list of chores she'd like completed and disinterested in spending $150 for dinner out and a babysitter. It seems all of her desires take a front seat, and my single, ongoing request doesn't even have a place in the trunk.
For those who say we may not be compatible and shouldn't be together, this seems like a horrible solution. I committed to a life with her and would not want to change it. A lack of sex is certainly no reason to turn my back on her and destroy the good home enjoyed by our children. Doing so would seem selfish and immature. I also believe this is not what she wants.
In the end, it seems the black/white interpretation enjoyed by many is that I should be celebate or leave my family in the name of sexual gratification. These are very poor options. As a result, I maintain a loving relationship and good home for our family and once in a while have a stranger rub my penis for a few minutes. No harm done.
I think that if it weren't cheating, you'd feel fine telling your wife frustrated husband. Since you don't . . . yep. It's cheating. Plenty of harm is done when you have sexual contact with someone and have to hide it from your wife.
so my suggestion is to ask her tonight over dinner if she minds you going to multiple places and letting multiple women get you off. Let us know what she says.
Also wanted to comment that if there is dissatisfaction between partners, that is a relationship issue. The pair needs to compromise. Counseling may help you move past that issue as well as address whatever other issues are going on in the relationship. good luck
I know what she would say. She doesn't approve but also believes a happy ending is a part of male massage and does encourage me to go without discussing the details. This still does not resolve whether it is cheating.
If a spouse has exclusive privilges but he or she refuses an activity for many years, I propose the spouse looses that exclusivity. I'm not talking about engaging in activity that crosses normal boundaries. These are activities theat were commonplace before marriage then subsided and now don't occur.
Every relationship has troubles and requires hard work to make it last. We are generally quite happy together and have little strife beyond normal conflict. On this issue, however, there is no compromise. She won't do it. I've tried many approaches and "you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours" agreements. All fail. I could try negative compromise and play ***-for-tat - if you don't do this than I won't do that, but this is an unhealthy stance. This all boils down to either accepting this void for the next several decades or finding it on the outside.
Understand that I'm not thrilled with this situation. Compromise won't happen. Counseling won't happen since she disagrees there is cause for concern. She also would never agree to have frank conversations about sex with a 3rd party.
Life isn't perfect and it isn't black and white. This is by no means a textbook aspect of marriage, but it seems to work and keeps this issue at bay. In the end, it seems less like cheating and more like an imperfect solution to an otherwise unresolvable issue.
Vance, I'm aware of the human rights concerns related to sex workers and agree this problem exists. I also am quite certain that this does not represent the entire population of these professionals. It is further clear that, while the governing bodies overseeing massage therapists try very hard to eliminate happy endings, many certified massage therapists readily offer the service and view it as beneficial to the process. It is quite common in many other cultures. There are extended debates about of these matters on topix.com (and elsewhere) but they delve well beyond the scope of this discussion.
Special Mom, your last response is basically "I don't believe you." That it certainly your option, but it doesn't change reality. Even if the story weren't true (but it is), there seems to be no better solution at this time. Unfortunately mine is not uncommon and there are many more like me. A good friend of mine hasn't received oral sex in four years. He and his wife (and family) are otherwise happy. Should he just accept it, walk away and certainly destroy his family, or indulge in a rare, minor transgression that utlimately has no consequence?
I'll be honest. No. I don't believe you've been forthright with your wife on this subject and if you were, she'd be cool with it. I don't believe she thinks you are having a paid prostitute (which that is all that is) get you off. Not much different than cruising the alley and picking up someone to do it in your car for 20 bucks.
I think couples should work on intimacy issues to save the marriage or yes, they should break up rather than one of the pair being sexually active with sex workers.
It certainly is your option to minimize what you do away from your wife and to justify it as you see fit. But I would say that most women would not be comfortable with this and I'd bet your wife is included in that. You basically say so even though you then backtrack.
good luck but I do recommend some therapy for you two to work on why you can't have a fulfilling sex life within your marriage.
I'll add, if this is 'simply' a physical release (no emotion involved for "another woman") then, why not go 'solo' ??
and Your good friend who hasn't had "oral" sex in 4 years? OMGolly, what kind of sacrifice is that!!?? I truely fail to see that as a 'sacrifice' a loving Man makes for a Woman who isn't interested in going there - whatever Her feeling is about that, it's valid to Her and should be respected.
My other thought is any thing You have to sneak and hide, lie and cheat, withold from Your Wife is cheating. You would expect the same respect from Her.
You are trying to find a way to justify cheating and You can't do that. You can dress up and put a hat on a dog but it's still a dog.
I have a specific question, that is similar, but not the same as the initial posed question. So I live in an area where a yoga studio offers a 2 times a month workshop called "men massaging men" or "MMM". I've been getting the emails since I was single and never actually went and then the other day (now married) I opened an old email address I used to have and saw that I was still being invited. Here are the specifics.
*The premise is that the massage is sensual and therapeutic and is not supposed to surround release, but I imagine there is some testicular massage and penis massage.
*You trade 3 times with other men who have paid for the event ($30) and a lot of them are trained CMT, as am I.
*I have bisexual tendencies, but am not truly looking at this as a means to satisfy my sexual thirst, but I will enjoy the touching and massage.
*My wife and I had a kid and now she's in a funk about her body, my body, working a new job with salary hours and overall stress. I try and surprise her with concerts and I even have a night of pottery planned, with dinner and tonight I asked her about doing a couples massage seminar and she had no interest. We haven't had sex in a while, which I leave up to her, because I do not believe in "demanding" or guilting my way into sex. I do not want to *** at the workshop and will maybe even ask my partners to avoid lingam massage, but at what point would this be cheating, if I chose to go to these and not tell her? What if I tell her I am going to the group massage, because she knows I am a trained CMT and I do not say that the massage practice is led in a sensual, but not necessarily sexual way? In the invite, it states that "Though we do not encourage release, it sometimes happens. We clean up and we move on". With all that you know so far, is there any way for me to attend this and not be cheating, because secondarily, I am afraid she will begin to think I am outright gay, which I am not and believe me, I have tried to see if maybe I was, but I know, after years of experimenting on different levels, that I am simply bisexual, because I am not afraid of male-to-male contact, but I do not look at men sexually most often. She has an underlying fear of dating a secretly gay man as it is, because of the TV she watches and the shows that have had a similar scenario. Please help and please do not use this as an opportunity to judge a stranger online. I can handle a truth I may not like very much.
It's not about what you think it's about how the person doing it feels.
What is the big deal to go to a massage parlor - and a happy ending.
Could be what the doctor order to keep a marriage going. If you think people 50 years ago did not do anything like this you are mistaken. It wasn't out in the open but it was happening then as it is now.
I have a wife that has lost interest in sex. I'm still attracted to her, but she continually shuts me down. We average brief sex (maybe a few minutes) about once a month. This has been for about 6 years except for brief periods of trying to get pregnant. Often it's months in between. She has no desire to satisfy me or meet my needs. I have asked repeatedly and told her my concerns. I'm a good looking, fit guy that tries to giver her everything. She's a stay at home mom. Is a occasional run-and-tug that bad a thing or do most of the women out there think I should just accept a mostly celibate life? I have kids and want the marriage to work. Perhaps many of the women out there think a divorce is a better option. I haven't been to one of those places in years, but I can see it as an option to have some needs met that a spouse is not willing to meet. Unfortunately, many American, "Christian" women have lost sight of what it means to be a wife. Had they not, many of these massage parlors would not be in business.
Give me a break, giving a full body massage is definitely not cheating. Cheating to who? The masseur, the therapist, the one on the table or one at home who doesn't know their husband or wife is on my table getting a full body massage? A full body massages is considered therapeutic in many countries and cultures. A woman can't make a man ejaculate, a man ejaculates on his own free will because he does not know how to hold it. As an American culture we need to learn how to touch our partners more often. I hear men and women telling me their partner hasn't touched them in weeks, sometimes even months. I have men and women who breakdown in tears because its been so long since they've been touched by a partner. How sad and then you find posts like these bashing massages. No you are not a prude if you don't want a non partner touching certain parts of your body, its just your preference and prerogative but thats not cheating.
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