Actually if you want old fashioned values, consider this. Prior to the industrial revolution giving birth to the current family model where the male (physically stronger sex) was taken out of the household for much of the day at the time the father was very often (usually) considered the primary parent.
I think statistics, generally speaking (but especially where fidelity is concerned), can be skewed or inaccurate. It depends on who performs the poll, who's paying for the research, the group of people being polled, where the poll takes place, people's interpretation of the questions (definition of "sex"--supposedly nowadays people think you can have anal sex and still be a virgin), whether or not they are honest with themselves, never mind the poll taker, and the interpretation of the results.
And with regard to fathers not being the biological fathers, that could be more about semantics--it's kind of hard to not be the mother of a baby you give birth to. And while there may be men who think they are the father when they are not, how many men out there have children they don't know about and may never know about or parent or support in any way? That's not something you can determine.
I do think what Jary said was interesting--I once read that infidelity in women has increased at the same rate as women securing more powerful positions in the workplace. This implied, to me, that being in a more powerful position in a competitive environment may affect mentality across the board. But who's to say for certain if that is an accurate conclusion.
I'm a bit old-fashioned where family structure and parental roles are concerned, but since there has been a huge increase in the sharing of traditional roles over the years, the courts should look at the individual families with regard to divorce and unless there is some significant reason a child should not be with one parent or the other, custody should be shared--but I think the parents should be made to maintain one home for the children and the adults should take turns staying in the house...they should have to shuffle back and forth between two homes and be inconvenienced by their choices, not the children. Perhaps the divorce rate would go down if people knew they would have to do this?
Yes i am and still finding out the different paths of Paganism. Focusing on Eclectic Wicca for now, but may find a specific path later on.
Thanks for the advice lol...i also know to avoid Silver Ravenwolf. One book is ok but the others really have a go at Christianity. Now i dislike a lot of things about the religion but theres no need to point the finger. The burning times have past and we are no longer punished for who we are.
Theres still the issue of making our marriages legally recognised however, but its not a big worry (at least not for me)
Ultimately I think we are just recognizing that women have traits they always have had but with science and more honesty we are finding women have more potential for being violent and in other regards are equally as vile as men.
BTW I am guessing you are a solitaire? Some advice? Anything published by Llewellyn is pretty much garbage. Most of the authors even use themselves as sources for their works.
I guess the animal instint in women could be used too. After all, female animals tend to go for the strongest and healthiest looking males.
Though i think maybe women are becoming more likely to cheat because of changing societies, more rights for women etc.
Again, my opinion....but strip away human emotion and we're just the same as any other animal.
Actually you may want to check your statistics on the more likely to cheat. Particularly if you are going to use the impregnation fact? Ithink a hospital that experimented using dna tests found something like 10-20% of men who thought that they were the fathers of their kids really weren't. In addition to which the theory behind species that do not go in heat, or rather are able to mate at any time is that the male is never sure whose progeny she is carrying and therefore she is more likely to receive the "attentions" and protections of several males.
Plus the stats for women admitting to affairs is almost exactly the same as men in the US or higher while womenh are more likely to cheat emotionally first which is more likely to result in a relationship being dissolved.,
You know what, i actually agree with you on the psychological problems and Paganism. True Pagans....perfectly fine usually, but then you get people who make up cults and take it to the extreme/get the wrong idea etc. Then start believing they can shoot magick beams from their fingers lol.
While im not completely knowledgeble on all pagan paths (im still learning) im sure there are some which are quite different to Wicca...i am aware of dark Paganism, i think they pretty much say 'if you have power then use it' so i guess that could attract all kinds people.
It differs for every Pagan in what they believe in, some believe in a God, or a Goddess, or both, or more than two, or none at all and simply worship nature. As a Wiccan i believe in a God and a Goddess as a whole, and then worship other Gods and Goddesses, like Isis, Pan etc.......anyways thats going off topic lol.
As for your marriage question, the only restriction i can see is to do with our animal instint lol; it is the males goal in life to impregnate as many women as possible, thats why men are more likely to cheat. So, by our human emotions and understanding of morals that when you marry you should not sleep with another woman, it can seem like the walls are closing in on the man.
Im guessing thats not really the answer your looking for but thought id put it in lol
Just as a thought. How many people recognize that men have rights that are lost or restricted by marriage. Come on someone step up and play devil's advocate.
Of course I do not think that pagans are all bad people. However I did a study about the realignment of religious identity in adults for college and I do think you can tell a lot by what a person identifies with. That combined with the fact that very few pagans actually know what they specifically believe in, and yet they converted later in life does tend to say a lot about a personality.... If it's any comfort I feel the same way about Unitarians lol.
Just as a thought take a look at American muslims, or nation of Islam. I think you will be surprised.
Take a good and close look at pagan communities though. As a whole they have large examples of the worst psychological, and social dysfunctions in society,
For example one lady I know say she sees small winged dragons and when her kid got flea bites from her dog fairies were attacking him. It is a culture where bipolar, schizophrenia, dissociative disorders, border line personality disorder, pedophiles can all merge and assimilate seamlessly. To me that is not a safe environment for family or kids.
So is your belief that most Pagans are bad people? True, true there are some Pagans with whom i do not agree with...One coven claims that children who are on the onset of puberty should have their first full sexual experience with their mother or father, depending on gender. In front of the rest of the coven. That to me is the most disgusting thing i have ever heard. So i dont deny that there are bad Pagans (who really shouldnt be Pagan at all) but they are not bad people in general.
And when i mentioned Islam it was from what ive gathered in the media. And thinking of Eastern Muslims, where womens rights are severly restricted in some parts. And i can imagine western Muslims' attitude towards divorce change because of the culture there.
But all im saying is that In EVERY religion there will be arguements, separation and divorce. Even if their divorce rates are low. Divorce is on the increase, however and maybe it is a specific religion, or couples who are not religious.
Just because one religion has low divorce rates, doesnt mean its better than another or they have better morals etc...it might seem like it..but its not the religion..its the people, so in that case, religion doesnt matter, you dont need it to be moral etc. I still believe that in every marriage, it only works properly because of the commitment the couple make personally, religious or not.
I do agree with you that marriage has now became 'sickly sweet'--Beautiful ceremony (or should be) but its true meaning isnt taken into account.
Just my opinion. Im not trying to philisophical about it...at least not too much. Two years of it is enough for me lol : )
Blessed be.
To be fair, since I am biased since my son, wherever he is, is in the company of a "druid" who molested his son and daughter and a Wiccan momwho has similar traits. I gave your reply some thought.
"The religions that have lower divorce rates are usually the ones that are very strict about marriages."
Really if we accept that historically marriage is for the preservation and continuation of a societies young, that would seem to be for the best wouldn't it? I will accept the argument that people outside of paganism have bad marriages but someone who is considered a Pagan leader, with whom I shared frquent correspondence once stated that he would never again higher a pagan to work in his store because they made unreliable employees in general. And I have heard similar comments regarding Qabalists versus high magic practitioners.
So if we consider from the perspective of not practiced religion but rather as a matter of religious philosophy in practice, and that certain people are more attracted to certain philosophies well then my point is valid.
However regarding divorce and Islam. I think you may want to talk to western muslims. Some of the myths regarding women and the restrictionsunder Islam have more to do with the culture than Islam that the people originate from. Much in the way that Italian Catholics might have slightly different beliefs than Greek, or Russian Catholics.
But take a look again at your comment and consider that people should if they have children put the ultimate well being of their child above their whims. I think as a whole marriage as it currently exists in America is not a reflection on an individuals "rights" but rather the selfish petty nature of Americans. And by extension some of the religions or cults that have been "reconstructed" or invented out of their original cultural context.
Yeah but in every religion you have people who argue and fall out. No marriage is perfect. The religions that have lower divorce rates are usually the ones that are very strict about marriages. Tho im thinking of the major religions and not the minority ones cause im afraid i dont know all of them!
In any religion there will be good long marriages of people who are mature about it and are faithful. The Christian religion is supposed to hold those values but theres still divorce or at least separation. From what i gather its the religions in which arranged marriages occur are the ones with the lowest divorce rate (eg Islam) because of the lack of womens rights and shame to the family etc. Sorry that sounded stereotypical, but its certainly what the media portrays.
And i dont think that its a benefit for women all of the time. As for the coven helping people getting fakes DV complaints and benefits etc, WTF!? Thats not exactly the Pagan way of life lol, and they give us a bad name.
Also, people who arn't religious who get married can have a good marriage, some dont.
But wherever you look therell be good and bad examples of marriage in every religion. Just because people dont divorce doesnt mean they are faithful or happy.
Sorry if rambling, sometimes i do and it doesnt make sense, so apologies in advance.
Jary,
It is all well and good to say that marriage, which in western society is a benefit for women only. Is a horrible male institution when the non-xian, non-muslims are the worst ones about abusing it! I know one coven where the leader of a local coven actually gives "classes" on how to file fake DV complaints in order to get "benefits" such as housing and education etc..
So yes it does matter what religion you are as some religions value maturity, faithfulness and family more than others as can be seen by the statisitics which show which religions are more likely to produce divorcees and single parents.
Im not saying that Wiccan and Pagan marriages are perfect, its just they havent been taken for granted as much as the Christian marriages have...that and the fact that when Christianity started the woman was 'given away' to become her husbands property. An i dont like that idea at all.
And yeah it doesnt matter what religion you are in as there will always be arguements separations and in some cases divorce. No wedding ceremony grants eternal love and commitment, its the couple who make their marriage what it is.
So what i meant is how meaningful Pagan weddings are to me...i find it hard to describe exactly what i mean lol
I mean no offense. I am not a christian now but bizarrely I had too much training in christian history and religion. More at least than I was comfortable with. LOL as cantankerous as I was my church as a child was actually groomong me to be a minister at one time!
You quoted Paul, but is paul really an accurate mirror of a christian womans roles and values? The other apostles barely tolerated him, he had previously been the equivalent of a con man and a thug in his time....
Before you are too hard on men perhaps one observation a friend of mine made about me would serve you as well? It is something that shook me out of a particular misogynistic moment shortly before I found out my ex was having a child molester watch my son.
"It seems like you are dating the same women in different bodies." And to be honest I was. I value sincerety and belief things among other traits that fanatics or people who are shells living through other peoples lives like to mimic.
It is something that is very hard to get past. Maybe you are doing the same thing, it is after all a pretty common human fault?
Trust me being Pagan or Wiccan isn't a magic elixir either. If you want to say a society where men are superfluous and filled with disfunctional families go to a pagan event. A larger batch of disfunctional families cannot be found. Or at least that is the way I've notice it to be in the midwest US.
Yeah, i think think my grandparents are a good example of commitment. It was hard for them at first, even though they had a house. My gran was 18 and grandad was 21 at the time. My grandad was in the Merchant Navy and so they didnt get to see each other that much. They still went on to have 11 children (but lost one at 4 months old), and were stuck for money but i admire them for working through the difficult times. I think part of their commitment was because they were devout catholics but like you said Agiesmom, it was a personal commitment.
It also proves that you dont necessarily need to know the person for a very long time before deciding to marry them, my grand parents met and my grandad was smitten with my grandmother since the first time they met...but then again, back then it was common for the woman to be married off fairly early in life and begin their new life as a housewife.
But i still think marriage is not looked at closely enough. I dont think a lot of people think it through, i mean, ive heard of one couple that had a great relationship and planned the wedding and it all went well, even the ceremony itself went great...until the wedding night. The bride went down late in the night to find her new husband at the bar, drunk and they argued and he got pretty aggressive towards her. I think it had only hit him then just how commited you have to be and wasnt ready for that.
Great points, teko. It's back to being selfish. That's why people live together and/or are "engaged" indefinitely with babies--because one or the other doesn't want to commit. They can go on about the "reasons" they are waiting all they want, but the bottom line is one or the other don't want to commit. When my husband and I committed, neither one of us had a home or a job (we were both living with our parents and on vacation--I was between semesters at school and he quit his job to travel for 6 months). We could have come up with a thousand reasons not to get married at that time if we wanted to--neither of us wanted to.
Jary08, I think your grandparents were likely married as long as my grandparents because of what exactly what you said--commitment. My grandparents stayed together through A LOT--the Depression, unemployment and financial troubles, alcohol issues, illness, (and these were just the things I knew about). Whether religion was at the foundation of it or not, they obviously were both committed.
Another reason I think it's more about personal commitment and selflessness than religion is because my great-grandparents (born in the 1800's) were devout Catholics and they actually divorced--and later remarried. He was a womanizer and when it was finally too in her face, she said enough was enough. But in the end, he couldn't stand life without her and he vowed to change his ways (and did) and convinced her to remarry him. If it were purely about religion, he wouldn't have cheated (religion is about doing the "right" thing) and she would never have considered divorce. He was selfish and she decided not to put up with any more. In the end, he came to his senses and put their relationship first, but it wasn't all about religion.
In my opinion, people nowadays get married without really realising what it is about. Most people get married in the Christian tradition because its the norm and the bride gets to wear a pretty dress. But really, some arnt truely Christian and so i dont think they should take advantage of that.
I am not Christian, i left because i wasnt comfortable in it. To me, christian marriage felt like it was all about being legal and not marrying for love.
Thats one of the reasons i love being Wiccan, marriage isnt legal and although we would like it to be recognised as a legal ceremony, i think its a wonderful ceremony because it celebrates the young couples love, not being married in the eyes of our Gods, therefore any sexual act we do before that isnt classed as a 'sin'.
I think the reason couples can separate after marriage is because one or both of them suddenly realises the depth of the commitment, and so find themselve trapped. Its not always the case, obviously, My grandparents were married 52 years before my grandad passed away, and although they had their hiccups, they worked through them and it was obvious they were soul mates.
I would say B and those were good examples. Honestly I don't think one person is better than another because they go to church or dont!
if we are going off of what i live by and believe in then i have to go by what the bible says which is that marriage is honorable among all, the bed undefiled. it also says it's better to marry than to burn. so, that's what God feels about marriage union. it's the honorable thing to do and it's living within accordance to his will
for couple A, all i can say is that being married doesn't mean you are free from sin and not capable of making bad decisions and it's too bad they decided to. and for couple B i have to say that marriage is the right thing to do and if the couple 'finds' a higher purpose and calling further down the line in life, hats off to them. it's a fantastic thing
I absolutely agree that women tend to let their emotions get the best of them most times. My husband and I have both agreed that whenever I feel as if I'm letting my emotions trample all over him, to stop and pray about it.
On countless times, God has advised me to just shut my mouth...sometimes I listen. *smile*