Aa
to leave or stay
Many people post on leaving their husbands and wifes. I have told people they should leave and others gave the same advice. In theory it works in practice it's doesn't.
In a way I should apologize for giving adivce like that, because I myself don't follow what I preach.
Dove
In a way I should apologize for giving adivce like that, because I myself don't follow what I preach.
Dove
Check the stats on abusers by relationship to the child. If you combine boyfriends and fathers and uncles etc. its men. But check fathers vs mothers vs boyfriends and it's usually mom and/or boyfriend. Women are less likely to be convicted of voluntary manslaughter though.
I've heard of men hurting or killing their children too. When women do it, it just gets more press. Usually it's a divorce or break up situation and the person can't handle anything at that point. Or they are on drugs. So sad that some people feel like they have no support.
It is true that the stats for women are slightly lower than men however researchers believe this is, as you suggested because men are less likely to report it.
Given that I had one Soc. instructor who admitted to me and a couple of other people that she used to drug her husband to go out and party, another lady who shot her boyfriend in the gut and numerous other women I talked to who admitted to knocking their husband out, showing men whose boss, stalking, etc. I see reason for concern.
Plus it is always the mom you hear about chopping kids, pushing them in lakes etc.
Just something to think.
Given that I had one Soc. instructor who admitted to me and a couple of other people that she used to drug her husband to go out and party, another lady who shot her boyfriend in the gut and numerous other women I talked to who admitted to knocking their husband out, showing men whose boss, stalking, etc. I see reason for concern.
Plus it is always the mom you hear about chopping kids, pushing them in lakes etc.
Just something to think.
Sam, you make some great points. Yes, it's true that women file for divorce more than men. I think it's b/c men and women have different expectations of marriage. Also, men will take longer to file for divorce so women have to do it. It's not that the men don't want the divorce, some men just don't want to be bothered with the process of a divorce. Maybe men see it as a big failure while women just want to move on with their life? Or, maybe men don't care whether they get divorced this year or next year? Unless they are getting remarried, what's the point to them?
I do think that men & women have different expectations of each other, most of them unrealistic. Then they get married & find out it's alot harder than they think so in our throw away society, they decide to get divorced and find a new mate. So the cycle continues......
That's interesting about the stats on violence being equal, haven't heard that before. Men probably don't talk about being abused like women do. Women talk while men tend to keep stuff like that inside maybe b/c they are embarrassed to be admit their wife is abusing them? I've never studied this so have no idea of the reasons behind this. Can you enlighten us on the reasons for this?
I do think that men & women have different expectations of each other, most of them unrealistic. Then they get married & find out it's alot harder than they think so in our throw away society, they decide to get divorced and find a new mate. So the cycle continues......
That's interesting about the stats on violence being equal, haven't heard that before. Men probably don't talk about being abused like women do. Women talk while men tend to keep stuff like that inside maybe b/c they are embarrassed to be admit their wife is abusing them? I've never studied this so have no idea of the reasons behind this. Can you enlighten us on the reasons for this?
Here is a question for everyone. Assume that the stats from the cdc and DOJ are right and things like violence are about equal at the current time. Why is it women are generally the ones that file for over 80% of divorces.
And what do you think about researchers who say that men tend to be physically and mentally healthier while in a relationship and women are more likely to be mentally distressed.
And what do you think about researchers who say that men tend to be physically and mentally healthier while in a relationship and women are more likely to be mentally distressed.
My opinion of your friend is that now the fire has gotten to hot and she want out. Too bad. If he has always been anxious then she obviously knew that before she married him. She also should have known after that long how he would affect a child. She still had one with him. By the way, for this woman to think a broken home is better than a stressful one is assinine. EVERY parent has some sort of issue. So does every child. That is what makes us individuals. She took a vow for better or worse and needs to do everything she can to HELP her husband. Unless this man is abusing her or the child, she shouldn't be kicking him out or divorcing him; she should be helping him in whatever way he needs. That is exactly what she signed up for. Ignorance is no defense, and neither is stress. Try and find me some person out there with a stress free life. Good luck. I am not the judge of who should divorce, I just have my personal opinions, and there are exceptions to some things.
To Jaybay...Thank you very much = )
To Jaybay...Thank you very much = )
Your question, "When is divorce ok," is one that doesn't have a straight answer, I don't think, as every situation is unique.
As a Christian, I mainly go by the only reason the Bible gives permission to divorce: marital unfaithfulness. That's very cut and dry, black and white. It says other than that, separation is permitted with the intention of being reunited.
I don't want to dig myself into a hole here by bending the Bible's context for my own good or anyone elses, but I'll try explaining what I stand for here.
I would never advise anyone to stay in a marriage that involved any type of abuse of one spouse by the other. I would never advise anyone to stay in a marriage where one spouse would drag down the other, or the family, with harmful lies and/or financial ruin. And I would never advise someone to remain in a marriage if their spouse was cheating on them.
Sometimes marriages really do start off wonderfully and take a turn for the worst. Only then can the couple take the steps to save the marriage, or decide the damage is irrepairable. But it's up to them.
Let me really emphasize *them.* It takes two to make a marriage work and hold a family together. So if one spouse, by personal choice, is unwilling to change themselves and/or unwilling to put any effort into saving the marriage, but the other spouse is willing to seek council, then that's not fair, and therefore, in my opinion, the partnership and teamwork of the marriage is gone. Marriage is not meant for one person to hold together on their own.
In this case, sometimes a separation is a wake-up call for the unwilling spouse to make the change and seek help for the marriage. Then again, sometimes it doesn't do anything.
I believe that until all methods of marital help have been sought, and all routes taken to make a point to the unwilling spouse, only then is it okay to consider divorce. I'm even hesitant to say that, because divorce is just so painful and horrible, even in marital worst case scenarios.
As a Christian, I believe that prayer, faith, and trust are so important. I believe and know God is capable of any miracle; nothing is too difficult for Him. I believe that if a marriage is bad enough to consider divorce, then all dependence needs to be placed with God to save the marriage. But not all people are Christians and most people don't think or believe this way. So what else can you tell them?
As a Christian, I mainly go by the only reason the Bible gives permission to divorce: marital unfaithfulness. That's very cut and dry, black and white. It says other than that, separation is permitted with the intention of being reunited.
I don't want to dig myself into a hole here by bending the Bible's context for my own good or anyone elses, but I'll try explaining what I stand for here.
I would never advise anyone to stay in a marriage that involved any type of abuse of one spouse by the other. I would never advise anyone to stay in a marriage where one spouse would drag down the other, or the family, with harmful lies and/or financial ruin. And I would never advise someone to remain in a marriage if their spouse was cheating on them.
Sometimes marriages really do start off wonderfully and take a turn for the worst. Only then can the couple take the steps to save the marriage, or decide the damage is irrepairable. But it's up to them.
Let me really emphasize *them.* It takes two to make a marriage work and hold a family together. So if one spouse, by personal choice, is unwilling to change themselves and/or unwilling to put any effort into saving the marriage, but the other spouse is willing to seek council, then that's not fair, and therefore, in my opinion, the partnership and teamwork of the marriage is gone. Marriage is not meant for one person to hold together on their own.
In this case, sometimes a separation is a wake-up call for the unwilling spouse to make the change and seek help for the marriage. Then again, sometimes it doesn't do anything.
I believe that until all methods of marital help have been sought, and all routes taken to make a point to the unwilling spouse, only then is it okay to consider divorce. I'm even hesitant to say that, because divorce is just so painful and horrible, even in marital worst case scenarios.
As a Christian, I believe that prayer, faith, and trust are so important. I believe and know God is capable of any miracle; nothing is too difficult for Him. I believe that if a marriage is bad enough to consider divorce, then all dependence needs to be placed with God to save the marriage. But not all people are Christians and most people don't think or believe this way. So what else can you tell them?
Thank you for posting. You give me hope that our society hasn't yet gone completely down the tubes. Whatever issues your parents have, they did a great job raising you into who you are today. Bravo! :-)
As for what I see as valid reasons to divorce, that's somewhat easy to define. Just being "unhappy" is not a reason to break a vow. If true evil is present, then all bets are off. What is evil? Obviously any kind of abuse: substance abuse, mental and physical abuse of a spouse or children.
Through my own divorce and remarriage (to the same spouse!) we both learned that most of the things we thought were a big deal - weren't. Don't sweat the small stuff, and most of it really is small stuff. Marriage, and even cohabitating with another person isn't easy. Any relationship takes work and compromise on both sides. The time to settle major differences over things like religion and finances is before saying, "I do."
As for what I see as valid reasons to divorce, that's somewhat easy to define. Just being "unhappy" is not a reason to break a vow. If true evil is present, then all bets are off. What is evil? Obviously any kind of abuse: substance abuse, mental and physical abuse of a spouse or children.
Through my own divorce and remarriage (to the same spouse!) we both learned that most of the things we thought were a big deal - weren't. Don't sweat the small stuff, and most of it really is small stuff. Marriage, and even cohabitating with another person isn't easy. Any relationship takes work and compromise on both sides. The time to settle major differences over things like religion and finances is before saying, "I do."
I have a question, when is it ok to divorce then? What happens if you have tried everything in a marriage but it's still not working and you are unhappy? My best friend has been with her husband for 13 years. Almost 2 years ago they had their son. Her husband has problems with high anxiety and depression. He has lied about taking his medication and he refuses to go to couples counseling. She has kicked him out 3 times and she is tired of the yo-yo of the relationship. He has always been anxious but she was able to deal with it but now she feels as if it is having a negative effect on their son. She doesn't want him to grow up in a stressful home environment. My point is, how much longer should she stay with him? When is divorce ok?
I apologize for not clarifying. I do not in any way feel that divorce is easy emotionally for many people. It is easy however, in the mechanics of most divorces. In my state in most cases all you need is both parties to sign the line and a very small amount of money to file the court papers. Some divorces are worse than others, such as the outrageously messy one my parents just went through. $ 40,000 to the attorneys and that doesn't even touch the amount they both are giving, and taking from the other in properties and assets and belongings that were NEVER agreed upon. I would rather be shot than go through what my parents have been doing to eachother. I'll never understand it, and I don't want to. I agree completely that it should not be so easy to get married. It is harder to get a driver's liscence for cryin out loud. I'm no expert, and I haven't yet been married; and hope to not be divorced. What I do know is that I am watching people make the most rediculous marriage decisions with their close and trusted friends telling them not to, and divorcing one or two years later. I think there should be a different process for all of this. If they would have had to work harder to get the marriage, maybe they would have worked harder at the marriage.
To everyone who has gotten a divorce because of abuse or spouses cheating, I do not think you should have stayed through these things. I wouldn't stay being physically abused, or repeatedly cheated on. I just don't think that people put in enough of an effort in ordinary marriages where things get boring and the bills are the most interesting topic. And it drives me crazy.
To everyone who has gotten a divorce because of abuse or spouses cheating, I do not think you should have stayed through these things. I wouldn't stay being physically abused, or repeatedly cheated on. I just don't think that people put in enough of an effort in ordinary marriages where things get boring and the bills are the most interesting topic. And it drives me crazy.
Nothing about divorce is easy. I mean nothing. They should make it harder to get married then maybe that would make people take a serious look at what they are doing.
Dove
Dove
I am a part of the "younger generation" (24 yrs) and I am a little embarrassed about it. I notice so many people my age have no sense of responsibility unless it gets something for them. They miss work, they don't care if their word means anything. They have excuses for everything they were going to do that didn't work out. My fiance is 9.5 yrs. older than I am. For me, I couldn't stand MOST of the guys my own age. They run around willy nilly and don't really care about tomorrow. Maybe past generations were also this way, I don't have a way of knowing for sure. I don't have any one thing to blame. Maybe our parents wanted to go a little easier on us, just like each generation before us I'm sure had it a little easier than before that and so on. What I do know is that my parents were viewed as "mean and strict" and I was always happy, never beaten. I do know the value of a dollar, don't have any debt, and hold true to my word and responsibilities. So maybe it has a lot to do with parenting. The media can blast me if they want to, but I was taught enough common sense to ignore it. I also grew up in a world where families could afford to be one-income households more often. Today that is almost impossible. Children are being raised by daycares and televisions.
My opinion of marriage is that it isn't divorcable. I don't believe in divorce unless there are extreme circumstances. I have watched friends get married and divorced left and right. If they would have taken 5 freakin minutes to look at the big picture and think about the future, they wouldn't have made the same choices. I don't think that people have any respect for it anymore. Divorce is easy, and nobody looks at you like a failure like in past generations. It is "normal" to get a divorce the moment you aren't getting enough attention, or he doesn't make enough money. I think that people should slow down, think about things, and take a little time before getting married. It makes me sad to see this happen so much around me. I look forward to being married(September) and I know I have made the right choice. We dated for 5 years. We talked about everything at length. We have our ups and downs, but we have eachother to get through them. Maybe if people remembered that life is not perfect, and marriage is a lot of work, they wouldn't do it so quickly.
Sorry about the long post. This topic just really bothers me. I could go on and on all day long.
My opinion of marriage is that it isn't divorcable. I don't believe in divorce unless there are extreme circumstances. I have watched friends get married and divorced left and right. If they would have taken 5 freakin minutes to look at the big picture and think about the future, they wouldn't have made the same choices. I don't think that people have any respect for it anymore. Divorce is easy, and nobody looks at you like a failure like in past generations. It is "normal" to get a divorce the moment you aren't getting enough attention, or he doesn't make enough money. I think that people should slow down, think about things, and take a little time before getting married. It makes me sad to see this happen so much around me. I look forward to being married(September) and I know I have made the right choice. We dated for 5 years. We talked about everything at length. We have our ups and downs, but we have eachother to get through them. Maybe if people remembered that life is not perfect, and marriage is a lot of work, they wouldn't do it so quickly.
Sorry about the long post. This topic just really bothers me. I could go on and on all day long.
"In my opinion, this fear and apathy is what's being built up and glorified to please everyone's selfishness, rather than encouraging people to be held accountable for the actions they take and the words they say."
I will definitely agree with you here. But I also think a big part of that is something that sadly a relatively small group of people influence - marketers. I can't stand watching TV anymore because of how much extremely aggressive marketing there is. And it's disgustingly blatant. Feeling unattractive? Wear this cologne, get the girls (thinking of those Ax deodorant commercials). Is your life dull? Get a bigger TV. Buy a bigger car. Make your friends envy you. haha, just my crazy opinion, but there's definitely a difference between people who watch cable/satellite and people who find other (not necessarily more productive) ways to spend their evenings. It's especially scary with older retirement-aged people who never had to deal with aggressive advertising before. It's really sad to see some of them buy things, knowing that they really believe and hope that this product will actually make their lives better.
As for the last point, I still remember how much people were telling me that *I* had to be the generation to fix all the problems - and that was almost 10 years ago! I can just imagine what today's young people are thinking when they hear that message, alongside global rise of temperature, climate change, loss of forests, dwindling fish stocks, etc. It seems like HUGE global issues are funneled down to the shoulders of today's teenagers. I think the issue of marriage gets swept away in a defeatist attitude of "the world's already screwed up, so why should I try?" Getting angry at them just reinforces that apathetic attitude. And aggressive marketing and consumerist products are right there, ready to make everything better.
I will definitely agree with you here. But I also think a big part of that is something that sadly a relatively small group of people influence - marketers. I can't stand watching TV anymore because of how much extremely aggressive marketing there is. And it's disgustingly blatant. Feeling unattractive? Wear this cologne, get the girls (thinking of those Ax deodorant commercials). Is your life dull? Get a bigger TV. Buy a bigger car. Make your friends envy you. haha, just my crazy opinion, but there's definitely a difference between people who watch cable/satellite and people who find other (not necessarily more productive) ways to spend their evenings. It's especially scary with older retirement-aged people who never had to deal with aggressive advertising before. It's really sad to see some of them buy things, knowing that they really believe and hope that this product will actually make their lives better.
As for the last point, I still remember how much people were telling me that *I* had to be the generation to fix all the problems - and that was almost 10 years ago! I can just imagine what today's young people are thinking when they hear that message, alongside global rise of temperature, climate change, loss of forests, dwindling fish stocks, etc. It seems like HUGE global issues are funneled down to the shoulders of today's teenagers. I think the issue of marriage gets swept away in a defeatist attitude of "the world's already screwed up, so why should I try?" Getting angry at them just reinforces that apathetic attitude. And aggressive marketing and consumerist products are right there, ready to make everything better.
I have been married and divorced more times than I care to admit. I wish someone had sat me down and talked some common sense to me. About things like what the vows mean. I wish I was told the basic things on how to compromise about things and manage money. I wish they would have stressed that there would be times when things got difficult. I wish they would have made me take a closer look at the men I married.
Instead when I married my first husband I only knew him for a short time and my Father--God Rest His Soul--said good work. My Father was happy I was getting married to a man who would take care of me. By the way my Dad was a Lutheran minister and he preformed the wedding ceremony. My Dad meant well but I feel he should have known things were moving to fast. Growing up as a child I can remember all the calls he got from people in the congregation with marriage troubles.
Dove
Instead when I married my first husband I only knew him for a short time and my Father--God Rest His Soul--said good work. My Father was happy I was getting married to a man who would take care of me. By the way my Dad was a Lutheran minister and he preformed the wedding ceremony. My Dad meant well but I feel he should have known things were moving to fast. Growing up as a child I can remember all the calls he got from people in the congregation with marriage troubles.
Dove
I definitely agree with you about the negative attitude towards young people and marriage. I think people want to meet, genuinely fall in love, and make a life together, but there is so much negativity coming from every direction about marriage and failure that no one is truly encouraging the sanctity, committment, and loyalty of it.
It's more like, just live however you want to live and hope you don't get into too much trouble. Why bother with making committments or remaining dedicated to promises when there's such a huge chance of failure?
In my opinion, this fear and apathy is what's being built up and glorified to please everyone's selfishness, rather than encouraging people to be held accountable for the actions they take and the words they say. Again, just my opinion.
--As for the issue of the planet becoming a toxic wasteland for future generations vs. the importance of preserving the sanctity of marriage--perhaps I'll debate on that some other time, lol.
It's more like, just live however you want to live and hope you don't get into too much trouble. Why bother with making committments or remaining dedicated to promises when there's such a huge chance of failure?
In my opinion, this fear and apathy is what's being built up and glorified to please everyone's selfishness, rather than encouraging people to be held accountable for the actions they take and the words they say. Again, just my opinion.
--As for the issue of the planet becoming a toxic wasteland for future generations vs. the importance of preserving the sanctity of marriage--perhaps I'll debate on that some other time, lol.
"This live-your-life-while-you-have-it mentality is why our society has so many social and financial issues--high divorce rates, children out of wedlock, broken homes and families, extra-marital affairs in over 50% of marriages, domestic violence and abuse, abandonment, and overwhelming credit card debt. "
I disagree. Issues of children out of wedlock, extra-marital affairs, and domestic violence and abuse have always existed - with or without marriage. I think it seems worse these days because people talk about it more. In past generations it seems these things were not appropriate to discuss or acknowledge.
Plus in North America today there are many different people inter-marrying from many different backgrounds, cultures, religions, etc. Often there is no one way to agree on how a marriage is supposed to work. Is marriage a living arrangement legalized on a piece of paper with a few meaningless words called vows? I have no idea. But it seems to me that older people see young people as having no respect for marriage, while young people struggle with all the messages they get at school, on TV, from their idols (music stars and celebrities) PLUS the baggage their parents push on them. No wonder they don't know how to deal with the severity of a concept like marriage - too many conflicting messages!
I also think it doesn't help for those young couples who are really genuinely trying to make their marriage work, to have other people looking down on them and saying, "well you're too young and stupid to appreciate the sanctity of marriage anyways" or "it was going to end anyway." Weren't the people who usually say these things just as young if not younger when they got married? Have these people honestly forgotten what it was like to be young and confused? And did these same people really NEVER make mistakes of their own? Please... While I can't speak for the youngest generation up and coming, I can say that facing a growing reality where my children are going to grow up in a toxic wasteland of a planet because of decisions from my parents generation, the issue of preserving the sanctity marriage seems like a drop in the ocean.
I disagree. Issues of children out of wedlock, extra-marital affairs, and domestic violence and abuse have always existed - with or without marriage. I think it seems worse these days because people talk about it more. In past generations it seems these things were not appropriate to discuss or acknowledge.
Plus in North America today there are many different people inter-marrying from many different backgrounds, cultures, religions, etc. Often there is no one way to agree on how a marriage is supposed to work. Is marriage a living arrangement legalized on a piece of paper with a few meaningless words called vows? I have no idea. But it seems to me that older people see young people as having no respect for marriage, while young people struggle with all the messages they get at school, on TV, from their idols (music stars and celebrities) PLUS the baggage their parents push on them. No wonder they don't know how to deal with the severity of a concept like marriage - too many conflicting messages!
I also think it doesn't help for those young couples who are really genuinely trying to make their marriage work, to have other people looking down on them and saying, "well you're too young and stupid to appreciate the sanctity of marriage anyways" or "it was going to end anyway." Weren't the people who usually say these things just as young if not younger when they got married? Have these people honestly forgotten what it was like to be young and confused? And did these same people really NEVER make mistakes of their own? Please... While I can't speak for the youngest generation up and coming, I can say that facing a growing reality where my children are going to grow up in a toxic wasteland of a planet because of decisions from my parents generation, the issue of preserving the sanctity marriage seems like a drop in the ocean.
It seems no one really takes the promises and commitment of marriage seriously much anymore.
People get married, make a promise to spend the rest of their lives together and stay loyal to only each other--that's a beautiful promise to make and a difficult one to follow.
But the time comes for all practices to be put to the test with difficult trials in order to see how strong the committment and love really is. This doesn't just include marriages, but raising children, dealing with family, overcoming personal issues or addictions, and even finances.
It's easy for anyone to say, "Just walk away and attempt to start over again. Who cares about promises, loyalty, committment, and *true* love?"
This live-your-life-while-you-have-it mentality is why our society has so many social and financial issues--high divorce rates, children out of wedlock, broken homes and families, extra-marital affairs in over 50% of marriages, domestic violence and abuse, abandonment, and overwhelming credit card debt.
Not many people seem to care that promises, committment and love are worth fighting for and saving when times get tough and/or tempting. It seems most people think marriage has become a living arrangement legalized on paper with a few meaningless words called vows to accompany it--nothing more, nothing less.
Just my opinion.
People get married, make a promise to spend the rest of their lives together and stay loyal to only each other--that's a beautiful promise to make and a difficult one to follow.
But the time comes for all practices to be put to the test with difficult trials in order to see how strong the committment and love really is. This doesn't just include marriages, but raising children, dealing with family, overcoming personal issues or addictions, and even finances.
It's easy for anyone to say, "Just walk away and attempt to start over again. Who cares about promises, loyalty, committment, and *true* love?"
This live-your-life-while-you-have-it mentality is why our society has so many social and financial issues--high divorce rates, children out of wedlock, broken homes and families, extra-marital affairs in over 50% of marriages, domestic violence and abuse, abandonment, and overwhelming credit card debt.
Not many people seem to care that promises, committment and love are worth fighting for and saving when times get tough and/or tempting. It seems most people think marriage has become a living arrangement legalized on paper with a few meaningless words called vows to accompany it--nothing more, nothing less.
Just my opinion.
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