probably overreacting

[ncguy]

Two weeks ago I received an "erotic massage" in a hotel room.  The only skin to skin contact was with her hand, however, I'm converned that I may have caught something from the bedspread while I was laying down naked. About 3 days after I noticed a slight discoloration on the tip of my penis, and the same day had a STD panel test done (all results came back negative).  However, the spot is still there, and I have mild discomfort in my genitals that comes and goes.  I'm pretty sure it's stress, but the spot worries me.  I was planning to get another panel test in a couple weeks (after a month). If they all come back negative, am I in the clear?

Thank you so much.

[ncguy]

I should add that my concern is that she performed similar massages on other people on the same bed (which would almost surely result in their fluids on the bedspread). When she finished she cleaned up with a hotel washcloth (which I assume was clean, but my anxiety makes me wonder about that too). Aside from the shame and guilt and nervousness, what really concerns me is the spot.  Thanks again.

[auntiejessi]

Your chances of getting anything from a bedspread or blanket is next to nothing.  I wouldn't worry about that at all, but would get your symptoms checked out.

Also, testing for stds at 3 days is really bordering on too early.  You might want to test again in a couple of weeks for gonorrhea and chlamydia, given your symptoms.  

Aj

[auntiejessi]

I would also add that if you do have an std, its not from this encounter.

[ncguy]

This was the first encounter of any kind I've had in months. So if we can rule out this encounter, that's all I need to know.  This is by far the stupidest thing I've ever done, and it's the only encounter of any kind I've had in months.  (And that was with someone I trust completely and was protected intercourse.)

Thank you.  For my own clarification, how long can STDs remain active on material? I've read varying answers to that question on the internet.  I don't recall any wetness, but the last two weeks have been absolutely nightmarish.

[auntiejessi]

It does vary, but I always say, "if its dried, its died" in regards to std bacteria.

AJ

[ncguy]

Thanks again.  I don't know how long it'll take me to stop worrying completely, but this helps.  I'm still a bit concerned about the spot, and I plan to see a urologist next week.  One more thing, does the "if it's dried, it's died" rule of thumb work for viruses too?

[auntiejessi]

Yeah, mostly.  Herpes and HIV die very quickly outside the body.  Hepatitis C takes longer, but that's only in blood.  Hepatitis B takes a little longer, too, but that wouldn't be spread via contact on a bed spread, etc.  You would have to get that virus IN your urethra for you to contract it.

Quite honestly, I'd be more worried about bed bugs, fungus, etc., that you find a lot in hotel rooms.  STDs wouldn't even cross my mind.

Aj

[ncguy]

I have one more follow-up question. In addition to the minor discomfort that comes and goes, I experience some itching that also comes and goes.  I'll go a few hours and not have any itching, but then I'll start itching and it'll last for an hour or so.  If this was an STD would the itching be continual, or would it come and go?

[auntiejessi]

It would be continual, but you should get that checked out.  It might be anxiety, but you should get it checked to be sure.

Aj

[ncguy]

I've been to the urologist, who says that the symptoms don't appear to be STD (which is a relief), and I realize that there's virtually no chance of contracting something without any kind of penetration (e.g. stray fluids on material).  But the spot still hasn't gone (it's been about 3 weeks now)... doesn't hurt/rupture/bleed/secrete, but it's there, like a freckle... you can't miss it.  I also continue (albeit less frequently) to have bouts of itching.  It'll go for hours (usually when I'm busy or focused on something else), but then when it comes back, it stays.  It's not dibilitating, and if it was the worst thing I had to deal with I'd be fine.  But it feels wrong, because this never happened before.  What could be causing this?  I plan to take a panel STD test next week (when it'll be 30 days since the night I wish never happened).

Thanks again.

[auntiejessi]

I don't know what it is.  Perhaps its just a freckle or something you've had all along and just noticed it because of this incident?

Aj

[ncguy]

Thanks.  It'd be obvious (to the urologist) if it was herpes or something, right? What about the itching? Psychosomatic?

[auntiejessi]

It would probably be obvious to the urologist if it was something abnormal.  Herpes isn't always that obvious, but it would cause more than a freckle-spot.

The itching could be purely psychosomatic.

Aj

[ncguy]

Thanks again.  What do you do when you're not talking people down from the ledge after their regrettable indiscretions?  :-)

[auntiejessi]

LOL nice description.

I have a pretty normal life - family, friends, etc.  

Aj

[ncguy]

Seems apt.  It's twice that you've made me feel a little less doomed.  I'll probably feel better after taking a test next week.  But this has been a horrific 3+ weeks.  I can't imagine what it's like if you do something that's more risky.  I've definitely learned my lesson.  I have my fingers crossed that logic wins out and I don't have any unwanted souvenirs.

[auntiejessi]

Good.  Just remember that we have loads and loads of studies and decades and decades worth of std treatment behind us.  We know how things are transmitted, and you are at no risk for an std.

Bed bugs, fungal infections and the heebie jeebies - yes.  ;)

AJ

[ncguy]

Logically, I know this... and I really appreciate the positive reinforcement.  But the mind plays tricks on the body.  (What's the best treatment for bed bugs, fungus, heebie jeebies?  I even got lice shampoo and did that all over a week apart just to be safe.)  :-)

[auntiejessi]

OMG you are overreacting here.  You don't have bed bugs - that would be bug bites all over your body.  Fungus can be treated with over the counter stuff for jock itch or yeast, and heebie jeebies just gets better with time and logic.  :)

AJ

[ncguy]

Sounds like heebee jeebies are going to be the toughest to treat.  :-)

[auntiejessi]

lol they usually are.  If they were easy to treat, I wouldn't be talking people down from the proverbial ledge, now would I?  ;)

AJ

[ncguy]

I suppose not.  But aside from altruism being its own reward, where to do find the time for all the ledge down-talking?

[auntiejessi]

Well, I'm not working now (as many Americans aren't) so that helps.

And really, most days I don't spend more than a couple of hours total on here.

Aj

[ncguy]

Well, I hope you're still out there. I need one last (hopefully) ledge talk.  The itching is still intermittent but seems to have decreased noticably. I figure this is because I've talked myself into not having any bed bugs or lice or anything and my brain has stopped fixating on any little normal itch.  But the spot at the opening of my penis still concerns me.  In my favor, (1) the urologist didn't seem troubled by it and (2) based on what I've read and what you've said it seems unlikely to catch something via latent fluid on a washcloth or bed spread.  On the other hand, it's not a freckle.  It looks almost like a bruise... only brown.  The darkness seems to change.  It hasn't (to my knowledge) secreted anything, and it certainly hasn't ruptured or bleed.  (Again, good things, in my book.)  There has also been no pain while urinating (which seems like a common symptom for many STDs).  But there is a slight discomfort on the tip of my penis.  I can't tell if it's where the spot is or not.  Either way, I suppose until I take the test and get the results next week, I'll be a little edgy -- even if logically I don't think I need to be.  What on earth could this spot be?

Thanks again...

Slowly stepping back from the ledge... but peeking down occasionally.

[auntiejessi]

LOL I love your description.

A bruise looking spot might really just be a bruise.  What did the doctor think it was?

Aj

[ncguy]

No idea.  He never said.  All he said was that he didn't see anything that concerned him. I know it doesn't seem so, but that is very reassuring to me.  But it's that little seed of doubt that bothers me.  The other question in my mind is that assuming it's not an STD (which I believe logically to be the case), what is it and why the mild discomfort?  That still doesn't seem normal.  I will concede, however, that had I not had this encounter, I probably wouldn't be concerned.

[auntiejessi]

Well, if its a bruise, it will cause some mild discomfort, just as if you bruised your leg or elbow or something.

Its also a highly sensitive area (as if I needed to tell you that), so you might feel it even more than an elbow or leg.

Aj

[ncguy]

I wonder how I could have bruised myself there.  Crazy.  You'd think it'd have healed in three weeks.

[auntiejessi]

Yeah, but our bodies are funny.

I have a bruise under my big toe nail that is spreading, has been there for at least a month, and I haven't any idea how I got it (but my friends would tell you that's not surprising - I am known for tripping on clean, dry, flat floors; I've broken my little toes at least 3 times each; had ankle reconstruction twice for injuries, etc).

Aj

[ncguy]

I took the panel STD test after 4 weeks... all of it came back negative.  Although I'm logically as convinced as I can be that I don't have anything, I can't shake this little bit of worry.  I wonder how long it'll be before the slightest itch or iritation doesn't prompt concern.  The strange thing is the spot (which probably is a bruise) and really minor irritation, which could be the result of chafing from running (I run 6 days a week) or any number of other things.  Heebee jeebees are definitely awful.

[auntiejessi]

Well, you can use logic AND science to be convinced that you don't have anything - your tests prove that.

I can't remember the name of it, but there is a product for runners that will help prevent chafing.  Its something you rub on like a gel or lotion, I think.  That might help.

Heebee jeebees are the worst.

Aj

[ncguy]

I got some athlete's foot stuff (Lotrimin, I think).  I'm giving that a go.  If nothing else, this whole experience has taught me that the placebo effect (in this case a negative placebo) is incredibly powerful.  Aside from the heebee jeebees, the worst part was reading that some of these things take 3-4 months to show up on tests, which makes the 4 week result seem less conclusive (again, illogically).

Thanks for the help over the last few weeks.

[auntiejessi]

Herpes can take up to 4 months, but most people will test positive much sooner.  

You really had no chance of getting anything but the heebie jeebies from this.  Just keep remembering that.

Aj

[ncguy]

What fraction of folks have herpes without the sores or discharge?  That's the other freaky thing... you read that a lot of people have it and don't know it because the symptoms aren't that bad.

Will do. I'll remember.

[auntiejessi]

A lot of people have herpes without symptoms (discharge isn't a symptom of herpes), but you weren't at risk for getting herpes from this.  There has never, not once, been a documented case of getting herpes from an inanimate object, like toilets, beds, etc.

Aj

[ncguy]

Even if there's still fluid on a towel or something?  (Granted, I don't think there was and I'm really not worried, but one of the recurring thoughts I had over the last months was that it seemed like the whole world was teeming with germs/bacteria/viruses.)

[auntiejessi]

Even if.  Herpes isn't found in fluids, its on the skin.

Back away from the ledge.  :)

[ncguy]

What about heebee jeebees?  I'd say this is at least one documented case of them via inanimate objects.

[auntiejessi]

LOL yes - you can get heebee jeebees anywhere.  ;)

Aj

[ncguy]

I think I'm pretty far away from the ledge... but regardless, the mild, occassional itching/chafing that I probably wouldn't think twice about still cause me small visceral concern even though we've established that logic and science ought to refute the contention that it's {insert nasty non-heebee jeebee cause here}.

When you said I really had no chance of catching anything but the heebee jeebees from this, is it literally zero (like, say, the chance I, as a male, would get pregnant from unprotected sex) or is it just really small (like, say, the chance I'd win the lottery)?

Thanks again, and have a good Thanksgiving.  I'm thankful for, among other things, the kindness of someone talking me down from the ledge.

[ncguy]

scratch that... "lottery" sounds too good, let's go with small chance, like being struck by lightning while getting the newspaper.

[auntiejessi]

OMG seriously?  What happens if I say along the odds of the lightning?  

Honestly, no chance of herpes, chlamydia, gonorrhea, HPV, syphilis, hepatitis, HIV, etc.

Lightning chance of scabies.  Better chance of bed bugs, some fungal something, etc.

If you think hard about it, maybe you've had the occasional itching and chafing before this incident, but never thought much about it because you hadn't done something like this and weren't freaked?

I hope you have a fabulous Thanksgiving, too, and thanks.  :)

AJ

[ncguy]

I'm sure you're right.  I think that the thing that's creeped me out (in hindsight since you have weeks and weeks to think about every detail) is wondering how dirty the hotel room is.

I'm sure it'll be another few weeks (hopefully not months) until my brain settles down.

[ncguy]

By way of a self-prescribed placebo, is there anything you'd recommend for the itching and mild irritation?  I got the athlete's foot cream and I think I'll use that for a couple weeks (per the instructions for jock itch).  Is there anything for the mild chafing?  Hydrocortisone?  There's always the chance that with all the lice shampoo and athlete's foot cream, I've perhaps exacerbated the sensitivity, but mentally, it feels better to be "doing something."

Happy Holidays.

Thanks.

[auntiejessi]

Are you still using the lice shampoo?  If you are, its no wonder you have symptoms.

I'd use hydrocortisone.  The antifungals can kill off good stuff, and just make all this worse.

Aj

[ncguy]

yeah, I've still used the lice shampoo a few times. It seems to help in the near term.  I have moderate, intermittent irritation on my scrotum.  I'll give the hydrocortisone a shot.

Assuming that the shampoo and the athlete's foot stuff is the cause of a lot of the symptoms, how long until they go away?

Sigh...

[ncguy]

This is less about the ledge than my own curiousity about stray fluids on a towel that was used to wipe up (and therefore could have touched the inside of the urethra).  If we leave DNA everywhere (and it certainly seems that way what with all the forensics shows on TV), how come there's not more of a risk of STDs from an inanimate object (towel, toilet seat, etc.)?  Don't get me wrong, I'm VERY glad there isn't... just curious.

And per your note, I threw away the lice shampoo and put the athlete's foot stuff in the cabinet.  I used hydrocortizone once last night.  Is it reasonable to think the irritation will clear up in a couple days?

[auntiejessi]

You've used some harsh stuff on there, so give it a week.

There's not a risk from inanimate objects because the germs that cause stds die very quickly outside of our bodies.  That's why its not possible to get anything from a toilet seat, but if you and a partner are sharing a sex toy during a sexual encounter, its possible to spread something on the toy.  

DNA, etc., can be found even in dried blood and fluids, etc.

Aj

[ncguy]

Once again, thanks.  I'm as convinced as I can be that I'm fine.  The self-loathing will take a while to pass, but thankfully, it appears that I'll have a while to come to terms.  :-)

[auntiejessi]

Self-loathing?  You made a mistake.  Don't let that get too carried away, ok?

Aj

[ncguy]

:-)

Last question: how long should I use the hydrocortisone?  Unlike the athlete's foot cream (which had directions to use for two weeks for jock itch), there's nothing on the directions here.

Happy Thanksgiving.

[auntiejessi]

I'd give it 2 weeks as well.

Happy Thanksgiving.  :)

[ncguy]

Thanks.  I'm really concerned.  I know logically, I should be ok, but the irritation has gotten noticeably worse starting yesterday (Tuesday).  I did use the lice shampoo on Saturday and Sunday [according to the website, the shampoo is "free of permethrins and pyrethrins, and instead uses the naturally occurring mineral, Sodium Chloride (Natrum Muriaticum) as the active ingredient"].  I didn't notice any severe irritation until Tuesday even though I used the product Sunday night.

I'm inclined to agree with you that I've used some pretty harsh stuff and can probably attribute any itching/irritation to that, but geez, this is not fun.  And it's hard to be around the family with this going on in my head.  One more thing, the hydrocortisone doesn't seem to help much.  If it's not soothing, is there any purpose in continued use?

Happy Turkey Day

[auntiejessi]

Can you go see your doctor today?

I think you need to stop using anything, and see what your doctor says.  You might have killed off enough good stuff that you have a fungal infection or maybe even some chemical reactions.

Happy Turkey Day, hon,
Aj

[ncguy]

Nope... out of town, and unfortunately, it seems to take about a week or two to get an appointment with the doctor.  I hope by that time, it's passed.    Assuming (since I think it's the most reasonable explanation) that there's no STD and I've done some moderate dermatological damage with the lice shampoo and the athlete's foot cream, does the one week for stuff to go back to normal still hold?

Thanks.  :-)

[auntiejessi]

Yeah it might, but I'm hesitant to give any real advice without knowing for sure what it is.

What about an urgent care?

Aj

[ncguy]

Hmmm.... I'm out of town and don't really know where I'd even go.  I'll see if I can make an appointment for next week if things don't improve.  Thanks again.

[auntiejessi]

Oh sorry - I thought you meant your doc was out of town.

If things worsen, you can easily find an urgent care by goggling.

Happy Thanksgiving.

Aj

[auntiejessi]

Oops - that would be googling, not goggling lol.

[ncguy]

True enough... If it becomes really bad, I can always do that, although I'd prefer not having to tell my family that I have to go see the doctor -- especially since my uncle is a doctor, and would likely ask questions as to why I need to see someone or what's bothering me.  Who would have thought that would be a bad thing?

It's moderately irritating -- I'm sure more so because I can't stop thinking about it.  It still helps to hear that you don't think I contracted anything.  I do have one more question that  is as much from curiosity as anything after reading waaaaaaaaaaay more about these kinds of things than I should have over the last few weeks.

DISCLAIMER: I say this as much for myself as for your ears: I don't logically think I have an STD because I've read and believe what you and some of the other MDs have said as far as "zero risk" and "no documented cases" instead of "small risk" and "happens sometimes."  Having said that, what fraction of people with HSV-2 don't have lesions?  I read that some don't, but is it 1%, 10%, 50%?  Does anyone have a ballpark number?  I think the reason it's so easy to talk yourself ONTO a ledge is that without lesions, the symptoms are so common that you can find them even when you have no reason to look.  If the first outbreak is the worst, and only 1%, say, don't have lesions, that would go a long way to talking a lot of people OFF the ledge.

[auntiejessi]

OK the first outbreak is the worst, almost always, but about 20% of people will be truly asymptomatic.  That means no symptoms at all - no sores, no tingling, no itching, etc.

Most people will have SOME symptoms, and about 10% have severe symptoms.  

My first outbreak was truly hellish, and since then, I've had much milder symptoms.  Other people never get bad symptoms.  I'm sure this is so not the reassurance you wanted, but remember that you've had symptoms for over a month now.  If this was herpes, it would have been gone by now.

Can you tell your family, if needed, that you just have really bad jock itch and just want to keep that part of your body family free lol?  That seems reasonable to me lol.

Aj

[ncguy]

:-)

The reassurance I needed you gave me already ("Honestly, no chance of herpes, chlamydia, gonorrhea, HPV, syphilis, hepatitis, HIV, etc.").  It's funny how you can believe something (as I do when you say that and when some of the other forums address handjobs and towels with fluids as zero risk) yet not feel it.  (For lack of a better word.)

I'm sorry to hear that your experience was hellish.  I feel like mine has been hellish too, although in a different sense as it's been mental torture.  You've certainly made it less so.  :-)  Thanks.

[auntiejessi]

:)

You're welcome.

[ncguy]

:-)

I appreciate you answering some of the just curious questions too.  In addition to learning something, it does help to get incremental confirming evidence even with the very clear cut diagnosis.  Another question, if you'll indulge me, what percentage (roughly speaking) of folks who post here are over reacting?  I've seen an awful lot who appear to be based on the answers (and the amazing thing is that you can read a thread of a 3rd party and think "what's he worried about" but when it's your own, it's completely different).  I can't tell if it's because I've searched for things relevant to my experience and (knock wood) anyone worried about what I described would be over reacting too or if it's because it's something everyone worries about.

[auntiejessi]

I'd say at least 50% of people here are overreacting to a perceived risk.

Some clearly have anxiety problems, others just need some information.  There's a lot of misinformation out there that can really freak a person out, so I don't fault anyone for overreacting.  When you factor in the internet, the false or lack of info given in sex ed in schools, etc., its no wonder people get scared.

Also, there is a HUGE stigma surrounding stds, and very little of that is fact-based.  Some people think that if you have herpes, you have symptoms every day for the rest of your life, and will never be able to have sex again.  Others think that touching someone else can result in an HIV transmission.  

Its unfortunate, but its reality.

Aj

[ncguy]

I can certainly attest to the misinformation.  The information that I want to believe (and if pressed with, say, a gun to my head *do* believe) is consistent with what you told me and what I read by HHH (whose initials are apparently more memorable to me than his full name):  (1) There is ZERO risk of an STD from a handjob, (2) There is ZERO risk from cleaning up with the towel -- even if it had other peoples' fluids on it (which it probably didn't).

However, in looking on the internet, I've read that it's possible to get herpes from a handjob -- some say even likely if someone had cuts/sores on her hand.  I've also read that STDs can stay "alive" (or the viral equivalent) for pick one: {24 hours, 7 days in some cases, 14 days in a lab}.

I probably have read 10+ different threads similar to mine where HHH has said "ZERO risk, I wouldn't waste money getting tested."  And, yet, you have an itch or an irritation and it only takes one that says "it could happen if..." to send you over the edge.  My mission this morning -- thusfar fruitless -- has been trying to figure out the side effects of lice shampoo and/or athlete's foot cream if you over-do it.

I'm looking forward to Easter when all of this should be safely behind me.  :-)

[auntiejessi]

LOL It should be behind you by Christmas - how's that?

And seriously, lets look at this.

Herpetic whitlow (herpes on the fingers) is rare.  Its also painful, and my guess is that someone who gives many massages wouldn't be able to use that hand well with a whitlow outbreak.  

The only time whitlow is infectious is if there is an outbreak.  Even if she had a cut on her hand from something else, to be infectious, she would have to have a cut in the EXACT same spot she gets outbreaks (and from what I know of whitlow, people get outbreaks in the exact same spot each time).  If she didn't have a cut in that exact spot, she wouldn't be infectious, and even then, its iffy at best.

I would trust what HHH says about stds - he really knows his stuff, and lectures internationally on it.  He is past president of the International Society for STD Research and the American Sexually Transmitted Diseases Association.   Dr. Hook, the other expert on the expert forum, is equally credentialed and also knows his stuff.  

There are very few online sites I trust in regards to STDs - this one, webmd, the CDC, and the Herpes Homepage.  There are other good sites, like Mayo Clinic, etc., but those are good for basic info - the others I list give more detailed info.

Aj

[auntiejessi]

Oh and there are good HIV sites, but this forum doesn't cover that.

Aj

[ncguy]

Thanks.  I tried looking at the webmd boards, but found these much easier to search.

In light of your reaffirmation, I think that the pain I'm experiencing now must be due to either of (or an interaction between) the lice shampoo (although the website claims the NaCl shouldn't irritate because it's "natural"), the Lotrimin and the hydrocortisone.  I've spent a couple hours this morning googling to see if there are any side effects or interactions... very limited success... the only thing is that one of the Lotrimin formulations has an interaction with something I couldn't find on the list of inactive ingredients in the hydrocortizone.

I'm suspicious of the shampoo, because (1) I used it more times than the directions (and on consecutive days when I was having one of my ledge lapses) and (2) there's a small amount of irritation on the head of my penis where (while letting the shampoo sit for 30 minutes as directed) it would have been in contact with the shampooed area.  Still, no luck at all finding about whether others had the same problem (brand name was Liceadex).

[auntiejessi]

Well, you used it more than directed - that alone could cause these issues.

Even all natural things can have side effects.  Tea tree oil is all natural, and can really irritate the skin.

AJ

[ncguy]

One of the lovely consequences of my having low-grade OCD... :-)

I've read and re-read a bunch of threads by the doctors saying no risk for anything from handjobs or towels with fluids.  I think I'm feeling better after the repeated assurance.  With any luck the irritation will pass.  The funny spot near the urethra, though, is still there.  Not sure what it is, but it doesn't scare me like it did the first time I noticed it.

The internet is an amazing thing, but it's a scary thing for a hypochondriac.  (Then again what isn't?)

[auntiejessi]

Maybe the spot was there before this incident and you just didn't notice it because you weren't (obsessively?) checking things out?

Aj

[ncguy]

Maybe.  Who knows?  I think I'm off the ledge as soon as this inflammation/irritation/itching subsides.  (The hard part about the ledge is the nebulousness of all the symptoms -- since a lot of things say they can vary in degree or presence.  I'd really like to put something on it to relieve it, but I don't know if that's a good idea, since obviously my first attempt to soothe that has been counterproductive.  I'm still somewhat surprised (and because of that, mildly concerned) that it's so bothersome for a couple reasons: (1) the irritation didn't start immediately after either the shampoo or the first applications of the Lotrimin or hydrocortisone and (2) I haven't heard and couldn't find online much to suggest that this would cause such pronounced reaction... (One of the Lotrimin formulations but not all of them (oddly) had as a side effect mild irritation, so for now that's my guess.)

I suppose another confirmatory "symptom" is that the irritation seems to be better or worse depending on how I'm sitting (walking seems to help), which I don't imagine is consistent with any disease.  Plus it's mostly on one side, which would seem odd if it were something swimming around inside me.

[auntiejessi]

You know, I'd wonder if you've had a prostate exam.  Prostate inflammation can cause redness at the tip of your penis, and can cause discomfort when sitting.

You've never said how old you are, and prostatitis is more common in older men, but it seems to be affecting younger and younger men, if this board is any indication.

Being on one side doesn't necessarily suggest it, but at this point, you never know.

I know you can't find much about irritation from Liceadex, but I found this stuff -

Ingredients for the shampoo - Liceadex™ Lice & Nit Shampoo
INGREDIENTS: Natrum Muriaticum 1X (Sodium Chloride)
Inactive Ingredients: Cocamide DEA, DI Water, Dimethiconol and TEA-Docecylbenzenesulfonate, Lavender Oil, Olive Oil, Peppermint Oil, Polysorbate-20, Sodium Laureth Sulfate and Cocamidopropyl Betaine and Cocamide DEA and Peg-150 Stearate and Salt

I did some quick googles, and all the oils can be irritating to the skin if used in excess.  I also found that the Cocamidopropyl Betaine can cause irritation on the skin.

Aj

[ncguy]

wow... I guess you can find stuff if you know what you're looking for.  Thanks!

As for prostatitis, I'm 32 and I had a prostate exam about 5 years ago when I was having trouble urinating (no concern like now).  Everything checked out, but man, is that ever unpleasant...  :-)

[auntiejessi]

5 years ago - it might be time for another one.  Maybe something was missed earlier.

And I try to have sympathy for men and their prostate exams, but women undergo much more every YEAR lol.

Happy Thanksgiving!

Aj

[ncguy]

Happy Thanksgiving.  :-)

[ncguy]

I hope you had a good Thanksgiving. I just got home from a long drive.  I apologize if I'm being a pest, but I do have a couple other questions if you don't mind.

(1) I noticed another smallish, painless, discoloration near the opening of the urethra. (The first hasn't gone away.) I think more than a bruise, a better description is the way your lips look after you drink a cup of coffee but before you wipe the residue off with a napkin.  If it's not an STD, what might it be?  (I called and got an appointment with the doctor, but it's not until 12/11.)

(2) Is the encounter I described any more dangerous than it had been my own hand in a hotel, which wouldn't be unheard of on a business trip?

(3) I mentioned I came back negative on a panel test at 4 weeks.  Given the mild symptoms (the spots, the scrotal itching that is possibly due to the topical stuff) is there anything that another one at 4-6 months would discover that wouldn't have shown symptoms by now?  (I don't plan to get another one; I'm just curious.)

Thanks, and enjoy the leftovers!

[ncguy]

Oh yeah, one more question... this is sort of "fun."  When I read the two doctors, they both say something about slight theoretical possibility of hand-to-genital transmission, but no known documented cases.  What, exactly, does that mean?  It seems that someone with an STD would prefer to say that's how they caught it (as opposed to something more unseemly, like "I picked up a hooker and did who-knows-what with her in the back of a car").  Just curious how that can be avoided when documenting stuff.  :-)

[auntiejessi]

Well, documented case means somehow its made it into studies, or some published article, etc.  The thing about sex is that most of the time, there are some blurred lines - many times, when one has sex, they are also touching, kissing, humping, etc (Doesn't humping sound so romantic lol?)

That makes it hard to determine sometimes exactly how something is spread.  In this case, it means no one has ever come in saying, "I am a virgin, and have only had handjobs and got herpes."  (Or if they did, no one believed it lol)

So yes, we have no documented cases, but we also know the science behind std transmission, and what we know determines that transmission via handjobs, inanimate objects, etc., is unlikely.

Would I say you had the same risk as masturbating in a hotel room?  Yes, that's a fair assumption.

Aj

[ncguy]

I figured that's what it meant... My question was how often someone claimed it and wasn't believed.  It would surprise me if people didn't try to explain away a bad outcome using a more benign sounding mechanism just to save face.  I wonder if there's any information on when people claim this.  If the scientific hypotheses (1. stuff in fluids dies quickly outside of the body, which makes transmission via a conduit virtually impossible, 2. even when stuff is there it has to be in a large enough quantity and either injected into the bloodstream or pushed through an opening) are correct, then you wouldn't believe people no matter what they claimed, but it'd still be interesting.

And, yes, "humping" sounds romantic, but not quite as romantic as "getting busy." ;-)

Good night.

[ncguy]

By the way, I used to do research in aerospace where your studies and documented phenomena are in the tens because everything is so expensive.  What sizes of cohorts do these documented studies have?  Are they millions? thousands?

[auntiejessi]

Usually in the hundreds or thousands - depends on the infection they are studying.  An HPV study usually has more in it than an HIV study, simply because more people are infected.

Aj

[ncguy]

Wow... so if you figure that there's been research for 30 years and, for argument's sake, say 10-100 studies a year world-wide, then you're looking at millions of documented cases.  I wonder if one of the risk factors is whether or not you refer to it as "humping" or "getting busy."  :-)

[auntiejessi]

There's been research for a lot longer than that on stds.  They've been around since at least the Greek and Roman empires.

And now I'm confused - risk factors for what?  STDs in general?  Any time there is oral-genital, genital-genital, or genital-anal contact, std transmission is a possibility.  Different stds are more likely to transmit with certain activities, and some require penetration, and others just require skin to skin contact (again, oral-genital, genital to genital, anal-genital - not arm to arm, hand to hand).

Aj

[ncguy]

Sorry... the risk factors remark was supposed to be a joke.  :-)

[auntiejessi]

Ohhh well that's what I get for answering things when I'm tired.  I have no sense of humor when I'm sleepy lol.

AJ

[ncguy]

:-) Nice of you to say, but it probably just wasn't that funny.

I appreciate you helping me through the last month.  I hope you're right about being able to put this behind me by Christmas.  Do you have any idea at all what the "coffee stains" around the opening of the urethra could be?  They're not raised.  They're not painful.  They're not oozing anything (or if they are, it's so small as not to notice).  It's a little disconcerting, and it kinda stinks that I have to wait about 2 weeks to see the doctor.

I have to say that I *want* to believe with every part of me that there's absolutely zero risk of STDs via handjob (or towel), but even here, you read people posting (not the docs, but individuals) claiming to have contracted something from one.

For clarification, does the "no documented cases" refer to *any* STDs or just HIV?  I can't explain it, but even though I logically should know otherwise, HSV2 scares me senseless.  If I have it, the time thing means the first outbreak was far from hellish, but thinking back, even though there weren't sores, there was a lot of itching.  (I even spent some time today wondering if mild -- very mild -- sensation in my eye was HSV.)  Somehow I'm not worried that I've contracted HIV, even though that's clearly much worse.  Very odd.  I know that a conclusive HSV test probably needs 3-4 months, but how good is a negative at, say, 6 weeks? 10 weeks?  Hmmm...  I know that one of the problems is not having a frame of reference to say "that's not what it would feel like."

Anyway, thanks again.  :-)  Hope you're having a good Saturday.

[ncguy]

PS -- Aside from your sense of humor (when you're well-rested, that is) and your bed-side manner (figuratively speaking), I find the posts of Drs. Hansfield and Hook very reassuring.  :-)

[auntiejessi]

It refers to stds as well as HIV.  HIV isn't even a consideration here.  You'd still have to get someone else's fluid INSIDE you, and I can't imagine that happening just by lying on a bed.  Besides, HIV dies within seconds of leaving the body.

I always forget the hsv test numbers, but I believe its something like 75% will test positive by 8 weeks.

And I haven't read anything here that I can remember where someone says they got an std from a towel or whatever.

Aj

[ncguy]

Thanks again for the numbers.  I've been enjoying the evening reading repeated "don't worry about it" threads.  :-)  Positive reinforcement, even if it's the same two doctors saying it.  One of them (http://www.medhelp.org/posts/show/608648) even had this, which is very reassuring:

"In 30+ years working in a busy STD clinic (15,000 patient visits per year), I have never seen a case of any infection that was plausibly acquired by hand to genital contact. It simply does not happen, period."

Either way, tonight is a less ledgy day than yesterday, so that's progress... and if towels don't do it, and hands don't do it, then I'm fine and dandy.  Still a bit curious about the discoloration... If nothing else, perhaps this scare will be good in that it makes me check up on the discoloring that I'd otherwise probably not think twice about (even though, unlike itching, it's clear that there's something there that isn't just in my head).

Thanks again for all your support.

PS -- How many people are you talking down from the ledge daily?  :-)

[auntiejessi]

LOL I haven't ever counted.  I'm not sure if it would make me feel good or if it would just depress me lol.

If Dr. HHH hasn't seen it, it hasn't happened, ya know?

Aj

[ncguy]

I hope it'd make you feel good... otherwise, why help all of us errant souls?

And here's another question: why "Aj" instead of "AJ" or "aJ" -- to me the "jessi" part is a lot more descriptive than the "auntie" part.

Good point.  Do you know Drs. HHH and EWH?

[auntiejessi]

Umm mostly it depends on my fingers and how I type more than anything.  Sometimes its Aj, others its AJ, sometimes its aJ.  Mostly I just go with the old caps for the first letter rule.  I've never really thought about it.

I have met Dr. HHH once at a conference, and have never met Dr. Hook.

Aj

[ncguy]

Here's a question that comes to mind from reading a bunch of similar posts to mine... one of the doctors said something to the effect of how everyone thinks his situation is uniquely dangerous, but it's not; and you said that there are a lot of people here who are suffering from heebee jeebees more than anything else.  I've noticed that some people will post the results of their tests... how many have you seen like mine over the years you've been helping people?  (And I assume all who have posted have been negative, otherwise the answers wouldn't be "no risk.")  :-)

Hope you're having a good Sunday.  I got a reprieve from yard work because it's raining.

Take care.

[auntiejessi]

Well, everyone here who's had no risk tests negative.  Anyone anywhere who's had no risk will test negative.

Not that many people will come back and share their results, which is a shame.  I think it helps people to know that others are in their same situation and ended up testing negative.

And yes, everyone thinks their situation is unique.  Its an interesting phenomenon.  

Aj

[ncguy]

Interesting, yes, but I think it's understandable.  It's probably not much different than those people who know that flying is safer than driving but who can't get on a plane without freaking out anyway.  When you're talking 1-in-1000 or 1-in-1,000,000 or whatever, in the abstract (or when it's faceless "other people") it's easy to be reasonable.  When it's you, it's hard to be objective.

:-)

[auntiejessi]

Good point. :)

[ncguy]

I know we've been through this, and I thought I was off the ledge, but I'm a bit freaked out after seeing the opthamologist.  He diagnosed a mild keratitis in my eye.  I googled it and found that a common cause is viral exposure, and herpes is mentioned specifically.  Ugh!

I still feel like the odds are on my side, but when I think back, is it possible I had a mild initial outbreak (i.e., no sores, but itchiness)?  If it helps it was more itching than pain... and there were definitely no sores.  I wish there were some threads explaining *why* there isn't hand-to-genital transmission of STDs (except to say no documented cases).

Is there anything short of a 4 month negative test to confirm that I didn't catch anything?  I have a bad feeling tonight will be sleepless.  :-(

Thanks again, and sorry to bother.  Truthfully, I'm not sure who I'd talk to if not you.

[auntiejessi]

Did he tell you what he thought was causing the keratitis?  A herpes eye test is quite simple for your doc to do, and if he even suspected herpes, he should have done it.

I'd follow up on that, but keep in mind that ocular herpes is quite rare, and almost always is from an oral hsv1 infection traveling up the nerve pathway to the eye.

Have you had any testing yet?  Ever been tested for herpes?  You can get a type specific IgG herpes blood test done now.  If you have hsv1, its most likely an oral infection.  

Keep in mind that I am only suggesting this since you got the karatitis diagnosis.  I am still firm that you didn't get anything from this.  I don't know how else to say it, and I'm thinking its time that you talk to someone about the anxiety.  I can give you info, but I'm clearly not doing all that well if in now 100 posts, I haven't convinced you that you are really fine.

Aj

[ncguy]

It's not you; it's me.  I've always wanted to use that line (but never thought it'd be in this context).  :-)

I tested negative for HSV1 and HSV2 a couple weeks ago when I took the panel test after 4 weeks.

It sounds like an opthamologist would have an easier time "seeing" herpes than I feared based on 6 weeks vs. 4 months.

Off the ledge.  :-)

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[auntiejessi]

LOL Glad you got to use the line, and better that you use it on me, than on some poor girl you are breaking up with or something.  ;)

Did your opthamologist give you any idea of what he thinks caused the keratitis?

The blood tests can take 4 months, but if you had herpes in your eye, that would be visible on the specific test they do once you got it in your eye.

And yw, yw, yw.

Aj

[ncguy]

I didn't ask the opthamologist to look for herpes (as logically, it still seems unlikely I have it, despite my irrational fear based on anything with the word "incurable" after it).  But he got in there with some drops and some colored lights and was looking at it.  He did some sort of "scan" running the light back and forth and having me look in various directions as he did.

He described the condition as some sort of mild irritation (which I surmised based on the -itis) and suggested it may have been UV exposure.  I haven't been outside any more than usual, but perhaps it was driving for 6 hours coming home from Thanksgiving with no sunglasses because it was overcast.  Who knows?

Is there a specific test or is it more like looking at it and seeing something that's distinctly herpetic (is that a word?) like lesions would be in other places?

Again, thanks.  :-)

[ncguy]

PS -- for what it's worth... off the ledge for now.  :-)

[auntiejessi]

The test for ocular herpes is usually done on a sample of tears or any eye discharge you might have.

I'd doubt its caused by herpes though.  That would usually cause a sore.  

Aj

[ncguy]

Ick... a sore *on* the eye?  Ouch!  In that case, I suppose it'd be obvious to someone looking at it to at least see if the tear stuff ought to be tested.

Good news... again.  What's the opposite of shooting the messenger?  That's what I ought to do for you.  :-)

[auntiejessi]

LOL ummm not shooting the messenger?

I'll take it.

Aj

[ncguy]

Still off the ledge.  Logic is still winning out.  But the eye stuff is getting worse.  I can't see the opthamologist until Friday.  :-(

From what I've read, the condition can be caused by pretty much anything (bacteria, virus, dry eyes, UV... the list seems to go on forever).  The doc gave me a sample of some eye drops that contain a steroid (which I just read googling should not be used for viral infections)... so perhaps the drops are making it worse and indicating viral infection, or perhaps it was going to get worse on its own.

My questions are these (and it's for confirmation because logic has me off the ledge): even if we stipulate the HSV-1 vs. HSV-2 thing making it unlikely that it's HSV (and I realize that this is not your area of expertise, but I've had no luck getting stuff through internet searches):

(1) What fraction of viral infections of the eyes are HSV?

(2) Is it possible to get the HSV into your eye via contaminated hands?  (My guess is no since you evidently can't really infect, say genitals with HSV that you've touched with your hands; and furthermore you mentioned the virus moving up the nerve into the eye.)

Thanks again... (and, really, I'm off the ledge.  I'm just a bit bummed I can't enjoy solid ground with this eye irritation.)

[auntiejessi]

If its getting worse, I'd stop using the drops.  You might be having a reaction to them.

1 - I have no idea.  I'd guess low, as ocular herpes is rare.

2 - Its possible, in theory, but unlikely.  I'd guess you'd have to touch an outbreak, and then immediately touch your eye.  I've not heard of anyone doing this.

Your doc should be able to get a sample of the secretions and find out what it is.

AJ

[ncguy]

Follow-up:

(2b) Based on the phenomenon of the virus traveling along the nerve to the eye (and on other similar stories of, e.g., kids who get herpes in their eyes after having it on their face/mouth), is it safe to say that it'd be almost impossible to get herpes in your eye without already having it in your body?  In other words, if you believe the docs and the nice folks here who talk guys like me off the ledge, there's zero chance of HSV from a handjob and a towel (and more and more, I'm getting on board with the logic there, and further encouraged by no lesions).  In that case, my panel result from a few weeks ago says I'm negative for HSV-1 and HSV-2... so there'd be no herpes to travel up into the eye.  Sound right?  :-)

[auntiejessi]

2b - Yes, I'd say its virtually impossible.

Yes, it sounds right.

Sure you aren't on the ledge?

[ncguy]

Wow! Cross-posting.  That's kinda fun.  Thanks for the information.  I talked with a friend who had herpes in his eye about 20 years ago.  Evidently, the opthamologist ought to be able to see virus/non-virus when he does the dyed slit lamp.  (Somehow the virus picks up the dye but other stuff doesn't.)  That he didn't say "virus" a few days ago either means that it was so early that he couldn't tell (which seems unlikely since I felt something that prompted me to go in) or it wasn't a virus.  Either way, if it's a virus, he should be able to tell no problem on Friday.

Thanks again for all the help.  Do you do other questions?  For example, I've always wanted to know the meaning of life... any thoughts there?  :-)

[auntiejessi]

If I knew the meaning of life, I'd be rich.  :)

Good luck on Friday, and let me know what happens.

Aj

[ncguy]

PS -- yeah, off the ledge. You can tell because I'm listing the reasons why things will be OK instead of how they're falling apart.

[auntiejessi]

Oh good point.  I'll be looking for those from now on.  :)

[ncguy]

PPS -- Reason #5 that this is probably not HSV... and this is just a wild-@$$ guess, but it makes sense to me.  I suspect it'd be very difficult for a virus to "move" or "reproduce" from one eye to the other.  The mechanism of their commandeering your genetic soup to reproduce (and the phenomenon of recurrent sores in the same spots all the time) seems to point to a virus staking out a location and sticking to it.  Bacteria, on the other hand, seem more likely to get into the other eye... then again, I'm not a doctor -- and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express either.

[auntiejessi]

You have it in both eyes?  Nope, not likely to be herpes at all.

Aj

[ncguy]

Well, I think the eye stuff is taken care of. It took a few weeks, but the worst was definitely the first week or so.  And since the antibiotic with steroid didn't make things go absolutely nuts, it's safe to say it wasn't anything serious.  Once again, you were right.  Thanks, and Merry Christmas.

[auntiejessi]

Oh I'm happy to hear that you are feeling better.  :)

And Merry Christmas to you, too.

Aj

[ncguy]

Thanks.  I hope you had a good Christmas.  I'm off the cliff (really), but I wanted to hear you tell me so one more time if you'd be so kind.  :-)  My girlfriend just got back from the doctor because of a sore throat, etc. (roof of the mouth and at the side where the lips meet -- doesn't appear to be a cold sore). Evidently she'd been bothered since Christmas Eve in the late afternoon, which is significant because she briefly gave me oral sex that morning (with no orgasm and only for 30-60 sec in the shower).  The first question the doctor asked was "did you have unprotected oral sex with someone who has genital herpes?"

Now, I know I don't have any symptoms (sores), and you've convinced me that there's no way I could have contracted this a month or two ago (though I'm still waiting for 12 weeks just because I'm OCD like that).  But I need to hear that there's a perfectly reasonable explanation (food irritation is what the doc suggested and probably if something happened that morning, she'd not have symptoms the same evening, right?).  Anyway, the guilt now is immeasurably worse than when I just thought I'd messed myself up.

Hope you're doing well.  I'm going to watch a movie and be distracted.  Thank you much.

:-)

Happy Holidays.

[auntiejessi]

Herpes doesn't go from the genitals to the mouth as easily as it does the other way around, and it rarely affects the roof of the mouth, or even the corners.  There is something called cheilitis that affects the corners a lot more than herpes.

She also wouldn't have gotten symptoms nearly that fast.

And besides - you couldn't have gotten an std from what you did.  Honestly.  

I wish I could find something to say to you to get you to believe me and move on from this.  

Aj

[ncguy]

You did.  You're a saint, really.  It's just a guilty conscience, I'm sure.  :-)

Happy Holidays.  Here's to a less melodramatic new year.

[auntiejessi]

Back at ya.  We could all use less melodrama.  :)

Aj

[ncguy]

Not to sound too Orwellian, but it appears as though some could use lesser than others.  ;-)  You seem to have it figured out.  I'm still getting things sorted out so my viscera catches up with my intellect.

Thanks again.  You're a good [wo]man, Charlie Brown.  :-)

[auntiejessi]

Awww thanks.  That's cute.

Aj