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Are these values/symptoms normal?

Hello,

I've been having frequent hearth arrhythmias. They started last year, stopped suddenly for a few months and then came back. Early last year i've done heart exams and it came out as physiologically as normal. However heart arrhythmias still maintained. This was followed by extreme fatigue back then but it all disappeared all of a sudden.

Now it's back with not so extreme fatigue but still my energy levels are on the low side. Arrhythmias are present almost daily while working at the computer. I'm already anxious and arrhythmias make me more anxious :)

So i then BEG the doctor to have my thyroid checked and also asked for T3 levels which she refused: "Only if there's something wrong with TSH or T4..." she said. The results are: TSH at 3.6 and T4 at 1.1. I still think these are not conclusive and  do feel that T3 is overproducing and disturbing my sympathetic nervous system by overproduction.

I feel frequent warm hot flushes also immediately after the arrhythmia, hyperhidrosis, anxiety and eye dryness.

So, what do you think? Are the values normal? Do they indicate Hyperthyroidism? Thanks for any tips you can give me :)

Best Answer
Avatar universal
No, your results indicate hypothyroidism, not hyper.  Your TSH, at 3.6, is probably within your lab's reference range.  However, many years ago, AACE recommended changing the reference range for TSH to 0.3-3.0 (anything over 3.0 indicating hypo).  Labs and doctors have been extremely slow adopting that change.  

What's the reference range on your FT4?  Ranges vary lab to lab, so they have to come from your own lab report.  Given a fairly "usual" range of 0.8-1.8 for FT4, yours is at 30% of range.  Because thyroid hormone reference ranges are very flawed, many of us had hypo symptoms until FT4 was about the middle of the range.  As you noted, you don't know what FT3 is doing.

Both hypo and hyper can exacerbate heart arrhythmias.  Which arrhythmia do you have?
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Avatar universal
Hopefully it's "just" nerve related and not arthritis related. The doctor also mentioned that, that sometimes the nerve gets pinched. And for me it makes sense because I'm often 10-14hours a day working on the computer and even though i try to have a good posture i can't avoid 100% the dreaded slouch. That along with stress... it all adds in :)
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Avatar universal
CTS is caused by the nerve being pinched as it goes through your wrist, but my numbness and pain were strictly in the fingers.  My wrist didn't bother me, nor did the body of my hand.  My thumb, fore, middle and the middle side of my ring finger were involved.  The little finger side of the ring and the pinky were not involved.  Sometimes, the whole ring finger or none of it is included.  Apparently, another nerve supplies those fingers, although that nerve can be involved as well, causing the problem in all the fingers.
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Avatar universal
Yes, believe it or not she actually said that and referring specifically to FT4 because I asked her directly :) That's putting me off in following her advice on the antibiotics route. Let's see if someone can help out on the "x-ray reading" :) Right now I'm on Ibuprofen only to see if it helps with the pain.

Isn't CTS wrist related? I have no pain on my wrist only on those fingers.

Thanks once again goolarra!
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Avatar universal
Could the pain in your hand be CTS?  CTS is a hypo symptom.  I had it really bad when I was hypo.  It would wake me up at night with first numbness, then a burning pain.  

I'm afraid I haven studied enough chest x-rays to comment.  Your lungs don't look "dirty" to me!  LOL

Typically, unless there's very new and relevant information, it's best to continue in the same thread so that you don't have to keep repeating information.  

OMG, your doctor didn't really say that, did she?  How awful!  I hope she was only confusing FT4 and TSH, although that's not even true of TSH.  Since TSH is counterintuitive and the higher it is, the lower your thyroid function, many people think all the tests work that way.  A doctor should at least have that down cold...
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Avatar universal
Oh, by the way, i showed this doctor my thyroid tests to get her opinion and surprise surprise... she said everything is normal! She even said: "T4 the lower they are the better...!!!!!!" ?!?!?!??!?!??!
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Avatar universal
Thank you for both answers! I'll have to do the tests privately most certainly.

I don't know at what point this could be related but for 2 weeks I've been feeling pain in my right hand in both my middle and ring finger. Close to the proximal and middle phalanges. During this period i wake up with reduced mobility in those two fingers.

Today the ring finger started swelling a little (where the proximal and middle phalanges meet). Pain in my back in the middle left side also started about 4 days ago. Fearing of rheumatoid arthritis or something worse i went a few hours ago to the Emergency, took a chest xray and the lungs came out a little "dirty" paraphrasing the doctor... and she put me on antibiotics (Zithromax) and gave me Ibuprofen for the pain.

Here's the xray (don't know if it's visible):

http://postimg.org/image/gnw5an19h/

I do have asthmatic bronchitis and polen alergy. But the symptoms diminished (almost disappeared along the years) with age. She said it's probably the bronchitis since i NEVER smoked, but i don't have any symptoms or crisis which is weird. I've done a chest xray last year and everything was fine.

She said the pain in the back is not related to the lungs but regarding the hand she didn't discarded the arthritis hypothesis but said that those kind of exams should be done by the family physician.

What do you think? Also, is it advisable to make another post regarding this issue?
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Avatar universal
Sorry to hear you got the standard "you're within range" line.  If that's all the experience doctors are bringing to the table, then we really don't need them.  All of us are pretty capable of reading a report and seeing if the result is in range, especially since it's usually made really easy with an "H" or "L" flag.  

Are you able to take the whole month of August off?

I like the idea of ordering the tests yourself.  There are some very good online labs, and the prices aren't bad.  Will you wait a bit before doing that?  I don't believe you'll get an U/S without a doctor's order.  If you get to the point of making an appointment with an endo, I can give you a pointer on how to get an U/S ordered.

I'm on the fence regarding adrenal fatigue.  I suspect that the degree of it is very significant.  Do adrenals have to be treated first, or are you in effect treating adrenals by treating thyroid?  However, we do hear from people who have a very hard time regulating meds at first, e.g. they're hypo on 50 mcg of meds and hyper on 55.  That usually indicates an adrenal issue.  I've heard that the only testing worth doing for cortisol is the 24-hour saliva test, which has four separate readings throughout the day.  Anything that averages is fairly useless.      

Vitamin D has to be present in sufficient quantity in cells for thyroid hormone to be able to get in and do its work, which means D should be well up in its range.  D deficiency is just about epidemic since we all started using sunblock and avoiding sunshine.  B-12 deficiency can cause fatigue that makes fatigue from hypo appear insignificant.  Pernicious anemia is an autoimmune that prevents absorption of B-12 through the gut.  Once again, the reference range for B-12 is all wrong.  In the U.S., it starts at around 200; in much of the world, it starts at 500.  Anything under 500 can cause symptoms, and people who have PA often have to run it near the top or over range.  So, both of those are a good idea.  

Ferritin (iron storage) is another that acts as D does.  It's usually part of a complete iron panel.
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Avatar universal
Just to supplement the good info already given to you by goolarra, these are the words of a good thyroid doctor.  "The free T3 is not as helpful in untreated persons as the free T4 because in the light of a rather low FT4 the body will convert more T4 to T3 to maintain thyroid effect as well as is possible. So the person with a rather low FT4 and high-in-range FT3 may still be hypothyroid. However, if the FT4 is below 1.3 and the FT3 is also rather low, say below 3.4 (range 2 to 4.4 at LabCorp) then its likely that hypothyroidism is the cause of a person's symptoms."

The ranges are far too broad to be functional across their entire breadth,, due to the erroneous assumptions used to establish them.  The ranges for Free T4 and Free T3 are based on all patients' thyroid test data, excluding only those that exceed the upper range limit for TSH.  We know how poor TSH is as a diagnostic, so that assure that a lot of hypothyroid patients' data is included in the ranges for Free T4 and Free T3.  In addition, all patients with central hypothyroidism, characterized by low TSH and associated low Free T4 and free T3, would also be included.  All this causes the ranges to be skewed to the low end.  So, any Free T4 and Free T3 results that fall in the lower half of the range should be suspect, and if the patient has hypo symptoms, should be given a therapeutic trial of thyroid med..
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Avatar universal
Hello goolarra,

So, i have the written response not from my family physician but from other doctor since mine has been sick lately.

Told her everything we discussed here and she basically says there's no need to worry since the values are normal within range (surprise...!). Regarding the question about the AACE recommended range being quite different of those of the lab i was tested she says the values vary from lab to lab and if the reference range was other the value would also be different. She isn't giving me any news... She advised to make another appointment with my family physician to reevaluate the situation. The appointment was made to the 31st August.

I also asked an acupuncturist to take a look at the reports and he also said they appeared normal. Having the hormone on the low side doesn't mean there's a problem and the symptoms i have could well be only because of work. Well, but I HAVE THE SYMPTOMS that's the thing...

Anyways, he advised to stay away from work on August to see if symptoms lessen or disappear all together and only then make an appointment to an endocrinologist.

Having that said, what do you think goolarra? FT4 production still is at 16% of the reference values no matter what the doctors say. I thought of instead of making an appointment to an endocrinologist and then make new lab tests (TSH, FT4, FT3, TPOab and TGab) i'll try to make the tests directly myself to avoid paying for the appointment and then the lab tests. I think the ultrasound can only be asked by a doctor.

What about measuring cortisol levels? I read about adrenal fatigue on the web. Is this "real" or considered some sort of a "hoax"? And Vitamin D? I'm also very prone to have canker sores, should i be tested for vitamin B deficiency?

Many thanks!

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Avatar universal
Your mother's TPOab and TGab were both in range, though not zero.  TPOab and TGab can be "somewhat" elevated with other autoimmune conditions.  I have never seen "somewhat" defined, but I interpret it to mean "within reference range, but not zero".  It might be worth repeating those now to see if they've increased.  

Last month, her TSH was 3.1 and her FT4 1.1, so it looks like thyroid function has been pretty stable over the past couple of years.  That's the good news; the bad news is I'm sure she doesn't feel well with those numbers.  They want an FNA on the largest nodule, which is pretty standard once they surpass 1 cm in size.  It's interesting that the overall size has changed considerably.  Imaging isn't my forte; I'm going to PM someone who is good with it and ask him to take a look.

Good luck with your doctor...keep me updated.  
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Avatar universal
Hello again goolarra,

So i have the reports for the antibodies my mom did back in 2013. I guess these were the first tests she did:

TSH - 3.5
T4 - 1
TPO - <15 (reference range "up to 60")
Tg - <28 (reference range "up to 60")

She was never measured for FT3.

I also have her most recent ultrasound report that says:

" Thyroid mobile with the deglutition movements, normal dimension, regular borders and heterogeneous parenchymal echostructure, identifying nodules in both lobes. On the right lobe there is a cystic nodule 6x4mm, stable compared to the previous survey. In the left lobe, the larger known cystic lump displays volumetric increase, with 14x12mm, showing up intracystic vegetation in its interior. The other known nodule in the left lobe shows slight increase in its dimensions of 9x6mm. It is suggested integration with clinical and laboratory data and cytology aspiration of the larger nodule.
Absense of adenopathic commitment of cervical chains evaluated.
Biometrics of the right lobe: 34 x 11 x 15mm
Biometrics of the left lobe: 37 x 13 x 16mm "

If there's anything mistranslated just let me know :) Tomorrow i'll leave my lab tests with my family physician along with a small letter with suggested further tests (repeat TSH and FT4, add in FT3, TPOab and TGab and asking for an U/S as you advised me).

Many thanks once again goolarra! You have been extremely helpful! :) I'll keep you updated as soon as i have further news.

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Avatar universal
Many thanks for your advice goolarra!

I'll have to find an endocrinologist to order the ultrasound and repeat the thyroid tests if my family physician refuses to order them.

lol! "fat" was the non-technical term my mom used when i asked her what exactly the technician said to her :) She only remembered... "fat". I'll certainly dig and post her antibody lab tests and the most recent ultrasound report as soon as i have them.

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Avatar universal
I think an U/S is a good idea, but will you find a doctor to order it?  It doesn't sound like your PCP is being very helpful.

Hmmm..."fat" nodules...not a technical term, I think.  LOL  Nodules are very common, and as long as there's nothing remarkable about them on U/S and they're less than 1 cm, they're usually just monitored for changes.  Thyroid meds will often reduce a goiter and shrink nodules.  When you get the current report, you can post it if you'd like.  We have some people who are very good with U/S reports.  

No, having FT4 at 16% of range is not a good thing.  Thyroid reference ranges are very flawed.  Many of us found that hypo symptoms persisted until FT4 was about midrange, which is an argument in favor of the whole bottom half of the range being considered hypo.  Most of us would be feeling very hypo at 16%.  

You might try to dig up your mom's antibody tests if you have a chance.  Too often, both antibodies for Hashi's aren't tested (just TPOab is), and you can't rule it out without both.  Some of us are TPOab positive, some TGab positive, and some both.  Hashi's tends to run in families.  You should be tested for both antibodies.

TSH is high of the AACE recommended range, FT4 is very low of the 50% recommendation.  I'd retest TSH and FT4, add in FT3, TPOab and TGab and ask for an U/S.
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Avatar universal
Sorry goolarra, i spoke too soon. I remember my mother was tested to rule out autoimune diseases. Don't have the results with me though but i suppose Hashi's and Graves were ruled out.
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Avatar universal
Hi goolarra,

No, it's not a typo :) Those are portuguese reference lab values. My family physician didn't do anything. No palpation of thyroid. I had to ask for thyroid testing... And she was VERY reluctant to allow them. Never had a family physician truly interested in our health, really.

No TPOab or TGab was measured. Not in me nor even in my mother. Her first thyroid ultrasound report done exactly a year ago says something like this:

"Thyroid gland symmetrical, measuring about: right lobe 43x17x15mm and left lobe: 42x11x15mm, continuing to individualize in both lobes some microcysts that at the right side present with less than 4mm, in the left side there is a predominantly cystic formation with about 10,4mm and another adjacent hypoechoic nodule with 7.5 mm.

There was thus dimensional developments since the previous examination in relation to the nodes of the left lobe, suggesting therefore cytological characteristics.

Lateral cervical lymphadenopathies not evident."

She had done another one early this year and the cysts/nodules had grew a little more and the third one she did this month we are still waiting for the results but the technician that did it advised for her to do a biopsy since the nodules were "fat".

So i guess having FT4 levels at 16% of lab tests is a good thing? I can send you a copy of my tests if you're willing to take a brief look at it.

Many thanks! :)

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Avatar universal
Wow, that's quite the broad range for FT4!  There isn't a typo there, is there?  If not, that puts you even lower (16%) on your lab's range.

Yes, especially with your family history, you should repeat FT4 and TSH and add FT3 in.  IMO, a thyroid profile is never complete without FT3.  T3 is the only hormone our cells can use, so it correlates best with symptoms.

I can't find it above at the moment...was TPOab tested?  You have to test both TPOab and TGab to rule out Hashi's, although only one has to be positive to confirm it.  Does you mother have Hashi's?

Has your doctor palpated your thyroid to see if he feels nodules?

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Avatar universal
Hi goolarra,

Thank you for taking the time to reply so quickly :) Really appreciate it!

So the lab references are as follows:

TSH: 0,4 - 4,5
T4: 0,8 - 2,7

The arrhythmias i feel are sudden rapid (or slow) heartbeats that generally last 1-2 seconds which i feel as somewhat irregular or decompassed heartbeats and to this day i don't know if they can be considered as an extrasistole really...). Sometimes they last more around 5-6 seconds and those are the ones that concern me the most and make me a little more anxious.

Never had any heart conditions. I'm a 35 year old male. My mother was diagnosed last year with hypo too and although last year nodules have been detected no medication was prescribed. The thing is that last month she was rechecked again by ultrasound and they grew (what a surprise!)... and her TSH was lower than mine at 3.1 and the same T4 value of 1.1.

Given the family history should i insist with my doctor to have T3 tested? What about antiTg and an ultrasound like my mother did?

Many thanks! :)
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