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Armour or Synthroid?
I need your help and opinions since I'm once again confused.
I have a 15 minute consultation appointment tomorrow with a new doctor 70 miles from home. I want to present him with as much relevant information as possible and have all my lab results from January 2013-September 2013.
I recently changed from Synthroid (past 22 years) to Armour (July 2013) after a heated discussion with my GP. "You won't feel any better," she declared as she wrote the prescription. Gee, thanks....
Comparing my January test results while on Synthroid with my current labs on Armour, I am puzzled.
I hate to admit it, but after longing for it all these years, Is Armour the right med for me?
January 2013 test results on 100mg Synthroid: (I was feeling ok at this time, not great but ok.)
TSH 1.205 Range 0.358-3.740
FT3 3.40 Range 2.30-4.20
FT4 1.20 Range 0.76-1.46
By July 2013, I felt quite tired and here are the test results still on 100 Synthroid:
TSH 2.073 (same ranges as above)
FT3 2.80
FT4 1.01
I won my fight to try Armour in July 2013 and after a few raises in dosage (started with 60 then raised to 90) and starting BHRT here are my last results from late September 2013 on Armour 90:
TSH 0.191 (Range 0.358-3.740)
Free T3 3.50 (Range 2.30-4.20)
Free T4 0.78 (Range 0.76-1.46)
RT3 16 (Range 8-25)
Ferritin 149 (Range 8-252)
DHEA 158 (15-170)
TPO 25 (Range <35)
Antithyroglobulin 353 (Range <20)
Vitamin D 55 (Range 30-100)
Folate 8.7 (no range available)
B12 1502 (Range 211-911)
My symptoms were fatigue, joint pain, headache, heavy pounding heart and occasional chest pressure on the dose above. I was tested on a Thyroflex machine and my reflexes were very slow, indicating the need for more medication.
The NP I am currently seeing said I more than likely have Hashimotos' and panicked when she saw the suppressed TSH levels (despite ordering the other tests) and recommended a lowering of dose. Surprisingly, she listened when I pointed out the not so great FT3 and FT4 levels and very reluctantly agreed to raise my dose to 120 one week ago. I'm feeling a little better than I did, but haven't had labs run yet since it is too soon.
Since my NP is very nervous and said she should probably send me elsewhere, I'm afraid I'll be without a doctor again soon if this current raise in dosage doesn't work out. This is why I am seeking yet another opinion from a doctor recommended to me by another thyroid patient with a similar history. This new doc does order more than just the TSH and will prescribe T3/T4 meds, though I think he is partial to Naturethroid.
Anyway, here's my questions: Looking at my January lab test, was I doing better (at least on paper?) on Synthroid than on Armour? At that point, I didn't feel ill, but I wasn't exactly peppy, either. By July 2013, I was feeling run down and hypo again with joint/muscle aches and worsening fatigue.
After the switch to 60 Armour (too low of a dose) also in July, I started feeling even worse very quickly, and the doctor ordered only the TSH test after four weeks. No surprise to me, my TSH came back at 12.5 and the dose of Armour was raised to 90 (lab results are listed above.)
I know every person is different and there is no 'one drug fits all' out there. And I also realize I haven't been on Armour long enough to find the appropriate dose yet, so maybe I'm jumping the gun.
And has anyone noticed their thyroid symptoms (and dosages) change seasonally? Historically for me, early fall is the worst. I was hospitalized three years ago in October with the same symptoms as this year while on Synthroid and after an extensive, expensive heart work up finding nothing wrong, I was sent home. Living in Wisconsin, the winters are of course long and outdoor work is at a minimum; but when spring and summer arrives, twelve and thirteen hour days of hard physical work on the farm are normal. With the arrival of fall, the physical work slows down again. I often wondered if my symptoms were related to overwork in the summer that catches up with me in the fall? I've asked doctors about this before, but they said it's not likely to affect the thyroid that much. I do work out all winter long, too, and also cross-country ski, so it's not like I stop doing anything strenuous in the winter, but it's still puzzling why my symptoms worsen in the fall.
In your experiences comparing lab test results, were my January Synthroid results more consistent with proper treatment levels than my current Armour labs?
And if anyone has any questions they think I should ask this new doctor, please let me know.
I have a 15 minute consultation appointment tomorrow with a new doctor 70 miles from home. I want to present him with as much relevant information as possible and have all my lab results from January 2013-September 2013.
I recently changed from Synthroid (past 22 years) to Armour (July 2013) after a heated discussion with my GP. "You won't feel any better," she declared as she wrote the prescription. Gee, thanks....
Comparing my January test results while on Synthroid with my current labs on Armour, I am puzzled.
I hate to admit it, but after longing for it all these years, Is Armour the right med for me?
January 2013 test results on 100mg Synthroid: (I was feeling ok at this time, not great but ok.)
TSH 1.205 Range 0.358-3.740
FT3 3.40 Range 2.30-4.20
FT4 1.20 Range 0.76-1.46
By July 2013, I felt quite tired and here are the test results still on 100 Synthroid:
TSH 2.073 (same ranges as above)
FT3 2.80
FT4 1.01
I won my fight to try Armour in July 2013 and after a few raises in dosage (started with 60 then raised to 90) and starting BHRT here are my last results from late September 2013 on Armour 90:
TSH 0.191 (Range 0.358-3.740)
Free T3 3.50 (Range 2.30-4.20)
Free T4 0.78 (Range 0.76-1.46)
RT3 16 (Range 8-25)
Ferritin 149 (Range 8-252)
DHEA 158 (15-170)
TPO 25 (Range <35)
Antithyroglobulin 353 (Range <20)
Vitamin D 55 (Range 30-100)
Folate 8.7 (no range available)
B12 1502 (Range 211-911)
My symptoms were fatigue, joint pain, headache, heavy pounding heart and occasional chest pressure on the dose above. I was tested on a Thyroflex machine and my reflexes were very slow, indicating the need for more medication.
The NP I am currently seeing said I more than likely have Hashimotos' and panicked when she saw the suppressed TSH levels (despite ordering the other tests) and recommended a lowering of dose. Surprisingly, she listened when I pointed out the not so great FT3 and FT4 levels and very reluctantly agreed to raise my dose to 120 one week ago. I'm feeling a little better than I did, but haven't had labs run yet since it is too soon.
Since my NP is very nervous and said she should probably send me elsewhere, I'm afraid I'll be without a doctor again soon if this current raise in dosage doesn't work out. This is why I am seeking yet another opinion from a doctor recommended to me by another thyroid patient with a similar history. This new doc does order more than just the TSH and will prescribe T3/T4 meds, though I think he is partial to Naturethroid.
Anyway, here's my questions: Looking at my January lab test, was I doing better (at least on paper?) on Synthroid than on Armour? At that point, I didn't feel ill, but I wasn't exactly peppy, either. By July 2013, I was feeling run down and hypo again with joint/muscle aches and worsening fatigue.
After the switch to 60 Armour (too low of a dose) also in July, I started feeling even worse very quickly, and the doctor ordered only the TSH test after four weeks. No surprise to me, my TSH came back at 12.5 and the dose of Armour was raised to 90 (lab results are listed above.)
I know every person is different and there is no 'one drug fits all' out there. And I also realize I haven't been on Armour long enough to find the appropriate dose yet, so maybe I'm jumping the gun.
And has anyone noticed their thyroid symptoms (and dosages) change seasonally? Historically for me, early fall is the worst. I was hospitalized three years ago in October with the same symptoms as this year while on Synthroid and after an extensive, expensive heart work up finding nothing wrong, I was sent home. Living in Wisconsin, the winters are of course long and outdoor work is at a minimum; but when spring and summer arrives, twelve and thirteen hour days of hard physical work on the farm are normal. With the arrival of fall, the physical work slows down again. I often wondered if my symptoms were related to overwork in the summer that catches up with me in the fall? I've asked doctors about this before, but they said it's not likely to affect the thyroid that much. I do work out all winter long, too, and also cross-country ski, so it's not like I stop doing anything strenuous in the winter, but it's still puzzling why my symptoms worsen in the fall.
In your experiences comparing lab test results, were my January Synthroid results more consistent with proper treatment levels than my current Armour labs?
And if anyone has any questions they think I should ask this new doctor, please let me know.
I'm so sorry. Glad you questioned it. The 195 would have been the equivalent of 180 of Armour. I meant to give the equivalent of 2 1/2 grains of Armour. That would be 162.5 mg of Westhroid.
When I looked for info on Westhroid I found this.
Brands include Forest Lab's Armour, and Naturethroid & Westhroid by RLC Labs. Also available is a new generic NP thyroid (Manufactured for Acella Pharmaceuticals by unknown manufacturer). Canada's desiccated thyroid is made by Erfa and is called Thyroid. All consist of desiccated porcine thyroid powder, differing only in the binders and fillers.
Nature-Throid and Westhroid are available in the following strengths: 1/4 (16.25 mg), 1/2 (32.5 mg), 3/4 (48.75 mg), 1 (65 mg), 1.25 (81.25 mg), 1.5 (97.5 mg), 1.75 (113.75 mg), 2 (130 mg), 2.25 (146.25 mg), 2.5 (162.5 mg), 3 (195 mg), 4 (260 mg), & 5 (325 mg) grain. Each one grain (65 mg) contains 9 µg of T3, and 38 µg of T4.
All brands contain a mixture of thyroid hormones: T4 (thyroxine), T3 (triiodothyronine) in the proportions usually present in pig thyroids (approximately 80% T4 and 20% T3). Armour is made in the following strengths: 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, and 3 grain as well as 4 and 5 grain tablets. One grain (about 60 mg) of desiccated thyroid contains about 38 µg of T4 and 9 µg of T3.[1
So they differ basically only in the fillers/binders used in manufacturing. Naturethroid seems to have very few additives. If you want more detail I'll send a PM with a site I can't post here.
When I looked for info on Westhroid I found this.
Brands include Forest Lab's Armour, and Naturethroid & Westhroid by RLC Labs. Also available is a new generic NP thyroid (Manufactured for Acella Pharmaceuticals by unknown manufacturer). Canada's desiccated thyroid is made by Erfa and is called Thyroid. All consist of desiccated porcine thyroid powder, differing only in the binders and fillers.
Nature-Throid and Westhroid are available in the following strengths: 1/4 (16.25 mg), 1/2 (32.5 mg), 3/4 (48.75 mg), 1 (65 mg), 1.25 (81.25 mg), 1.5 (97.5 mg), 1.75 (113.75 mg), 2 (130 mg), 2.25 (146.25 mg), 2.5 (162.5 mg), 3 (195 mg), 4 (260 mg), & 5 (325 mg) grain. Each one grain (65 mg) contains 9 µg of T3, and 38 µg of T4.
All brands contain a mixture of thyroid hormones: T4 (thyroxine), T3 (triiodothyronine) in the proportions usually present in pig thyroids (approximately 80% T4 and 20% T3). Armour is made in the following strengths: 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, and 3 grain as well as 4 and 5 grain tablets. One grain (about 60 mg) of desiccated thyroid contains about 38 µg of T4 and 9 µg of T3.[1
So they differ basically only in the fillers/binders used in manufacturing. Naturethroid seems to have very few additives. If you want more detail I'll send a PM with a site I can't post here.
Back in October I wasn't feeling great, but since I had changed doctors a little over two weeks after being prescribed 120 Armour, I took a leap of faith when my current MD suggested the increase to 180. I wondered back then if I simply hadn't had enough time to get the 120 in my system before the next raise in dose to 180. But as you said, I need to tread carefully at this point.
Looking at Westhroid's site, it appears the highest dosage in one pill available at this time is 130 mg. I imagine the doc could prescribe a smaller amount to add to the 130. I wasn't able to find a comparison chart for a one-to-one ratio of Armour to Westhroid. The doctor seemed to think the WP Thyroid would work better for me, but I can't find much information on it.
Have you heard of anyone on this medication? How did you come to the 195 mg suggestion? Thank you for your help, gimel.
Looking at Westhroid's site, it appears the highest dosage in one pill available at this time is 130 mg. I imagine the doc could prescribe a smaller amount to add to the 130. I wasn't able to find a comparison chart for a one-to-one ratio of Armour to Westhroid. The doctor seemed to think the WP Thyroid would work better for me, but I can't find much information on it.
Have you heard of anyone on this medication? How did you come to the 195 mg suggestion? Thank you for your help, gimel.
I guess the key question would be, how did you feel with those levels in October? If you still had hypo symptoms, then you could point that out to the doctor and question the drop to 130 mg of Westhroid. Since he is the only doctor who is wiling to work with you on all this, you do need to tread carefully and maintain a good relationship. If you decide to continue on the lower dose, you don't necessarily have to wait the full 6 weeks for a followup. if you start noticing any signs of hypo symptoms returning you can call and ask for an earlier appointment and tests.
The doctor said that since my lab results on 120 Armour back in October 2013 were:
FT3 3.50 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 0.89 (Range 0.76-1.46)
(However, I was only on that dose for 19 days when the labs were drawn.)
And after the increase to 180 Armour Oct. 29:
FT3 4.80 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 1.11 (Range 0.76-1.46)
His conclusion was to change my dose to 130 Westhroid. I thought it was too much of a drop, but he said he'll recheck levels in six weeks.
He asked me if I would be willing to try the WP Thyroid since it's 'pure' and has few additional filler ingredients and his Hashimoto patients seem to do better on it.
I'm not sure I did the right thing by agreeing, but at this point, I thought I'd take a chance. He is the only doctor I've found who is willing to work with me on the thyroid issues, but the other thing I have doubts about is the supplements I was sold. After being so ill for the last year, I am willing to give his regimen a try, but it is expensive and all out of pocket.
I'm not sure what to do now. I suppose I could call and ask him to reconsider the dosage again, but he was certain about his recommendation. I thought the swing from 120 to 180 Armour was abrupt, and now we're going the other way....
FT3 3.50 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 0.89 (Range 0.76-1.46)
(However, I was only on that dose for 19 days when the labs were drawn.)
And after the increase to 180 Armour Oct. 29:
FT3 4.80 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 1.11 (Range 0.76-1.46)
His conclusion was to change my dose to 130 Westhroid. I thought it was too much of a drop, but he said he'll recheck levels in six weeks.
He asked me if I would be willing to try the WP Thyroid since it's 'pure' and has few additional filler ingredients and his Hashimoto patients seem to do better on it.
I'm not sure I did the right thing by agreeing, but at this point, I thought I'd take a chance. He is the only doctor I've found who is willing to work with me on the thyroid issues, but the other thing I have doubts about is the supplements I was sold. After being so ill for the last year, I am willing to give his regimen a try, but it is expensive and all out of pocket.
I'm not sure what to do now. I suppose I could call and ask him to reconsider the dosage again, but he was certain about his recommendation. I thought the swing from 120 to 180 Armour was abrupt, and now we're going the other way....
The doctor basically cut your med by 1/3. From your lab results I expect that is going to be too much of a change. If we assume that all of your serum thyroid comes from meds, not your thyroid gland, then that much of a reduction is likely going to drop your Free T4 near the bottom of the range and your Free T3 below the middle of the range. If so, those levels result in hypo symptoms for many hypo patients.
Do you think you could talk to the doctor and get him to reconsider and only reduce your meds by 1/2 grain, down to 195 of Westhroid? That should stop the hyper symptoms yet keep your Free T3 high enough to avoid getting back into hypo symptoms. Then, if needed, a bit of T4 could be added to get your Free T4 to around the middle of the range.
Just curious, why did the doctor switch you to Westhroid?
Do you think you could talk to the doctor and get him to reconsider and only reduce your meds by 1/2 grain, down to 195 of Westhroid? That should stop the hyper symptoms yet keep your Free T3 high enough to avoid getting back into hypo symptoms. Then, if needed, a bit of T4 could be added to get your Free T4 to around the middle of the range.
Just curious, why did the doctor switch you to Westhroid?
At my followup appointment today my doctor decided to change my medication from 180 Armour where my lab results were:
FT3 4.80 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 1.11 (Range 0.76-1.46)
The doctor decided to change my meds from 180 Armour to WP Thyroid (Westhroid Pure) 130 mg.
Has anyone had any experience with Westhroid? I am also wondering if this is a rather abrupt reduction in dosage?
FT3 4.80 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 1.11 (Range 0.76-1.46)
The doctor decided to change my meds from 180 Armour to WP Thyroid (Westhroid Pure) 130 mg.
Has anyone had any experience with Westhroid? I am also wondering if this is a rather abrupt reduction in dosage?
Thank you, gimel. I guess it's back to the waiting game again. Luckily I haven't had any of the more devastating symptoms of being overmedicated.
That should be long enough to give a representative result on the Free T3. So, in view of that result and your mention of having some trouble falling asleep and staying asleep, I think you are a bit over medicated, and time to back off a bit on your dosage. I expect your doctor will tell you the same.
I have a followup appointment with my MD tomorrow, and I have some questions.
Here are the results of my 12/2/2013 blood tests on Armour 180 since October 29:
FT3 4.80 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 1.11 (Range 0.76-1.46)
With these test results, I wonder what the doctor will prescribe now? Am I hyper or hypothyroid at this point?
Some of my symptoms have eased in the last few weeks; I have much less GERD and headaches are infrequent, my hair loss has slowed down quite a bit, too. The hard heartbeats have subsided though I do notice them once in awhile, but not as bad as before. I have more ambition and don't feel depressed.
Things that haven't improved much yet is the muscle/joint pain. I am having problems with delayed onset muscle soreness after exercising which I guess is normal, but it doesn't dissipate after a few days like it used to. I'm not even certain if I can blame the thyroid for that problem, but I choose to, lol.
And lately I've been having trouble falling and staying asleep at night, again, not sure if the thyroid is the culprit, along with some irregularity issues.
I did not go gluten/dairy free as this new doctor recommended. (Not sure how I'm going to explain that tomorrow.)
If anyone has any idea of whether I'm now overmedicated or not, please let me know. I'd like to have your opinions before I see the doctor. Thank you!
Here are the results of my 12/2/2013 blood tests on Armour 180 since October 29:
FT3 4.80 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 1.11 (Range 0.76-1.46)
With these test results, I wonder what the doctor will prescribe now? Am I hyper or hypothyroid at this point?
Some of my symptoms have eased in the last few weeks; I have much less GERD and headaches are infrequent, my hair loss has slowed down quite a bit, too. The hard heartbeats have subsided though I do notice them once in awhile, but not as bad as before. I have more ambition and don't feel depressed.
Things that haven't improved much yet is the muscle/joint pain. I am having problems with delayed onset muscle soreness after exercising which I guess is normal, but it doesn't dissipate after a few days like it used to. I'm not even certain if I can blame the thyroid for that problem, but I choose to, lol.
And lately I've been having trouble falling and staying asleep at night, again, not sure if the thyroid is the culprit, along with some irregularity issues.
I did not go gluten/dairy free as this new doctor recommended. (Not sure how I'm going to explain that tomorrow.)
If anyone has any idea of whether I'm now overmedicated or not, please let me know. I'd like to have your opinions before I see the doctor. Thank you!
Delaying taking T3 type meds is to avoid unrepresentative test results for Free T3. My understanding is that T3 meds build up to max effect in about 3+ hours and then drop off in about the same time. Since your blood draw is say 8 hours after you take the meds in the morning, then that should be fine. If a blood draw is 3-4 hours after normal time to medicate with T3 type meds, then deferral is better.
A month has gone by since the increase to 180 Armour. I have to go in for labs on Monday afternoon at 4PM.
I realize this is late to ask, but does anyone have an idea of when I should take my last dose of Armour before the blood draw? In the past, I wouldn't take any meds until after the lab test, but I realize that is over 28 hours; maybe this is too long? Or should I take my first half dose at the same time as always?
I realize this is late to ask, but does anyone have an idea of when I should take my last dose of Armour before the blood draw? In the past, I wouldn't take any meds until after the lab test, but I realize that is over 28 hours; maybe this is too long? Or should I take my first half dose at the same time as always?
ahmee and Barb, I agree; I am thankful to have finally found a doctor to prescribe Armour and not freak out about low TSH numbers. But with me (and I don't think I'm alone with this problem, lol) there's always some fly in the ointment. He's willing to treat me for the thyroid with the Armour and keep my FT's happy which has never, ever been done before, but now there's the other elephant in the room. Diet.
I have a skepticism about the diet restrictions. I don't have much faith in it, sad to say. Not because I don't want to eat healthier, but because I have watched several family members and friends go gluten free and then on to dairy free to meat free to (what else is left-free?) and they don't look healthy.
They claim to feel 120% better and that is wonderful for them, but why do they look so emaciated and anemic? Where is the stamina? And for that matter, where is their joy in living? Again, I know it is none of my business what other people eat and if they do go 'free' something/everything and feel better, then of course by all means, carry on. But I would think health is also reflected in a person's appearance and vitality too, so seeing them walk in pain and look older than their years doesn't make me a believer. And two of them have been recently diagnosed with Hashi's. If the diet is supposed to 'cure' the disease, why did they develop it?
So what does a non-believer do? I was on Synthroid for 20 years and had been hovering at between 190- 200 pounds, give or take. I knew I was obese, but I felt lousy and after trekking to one doctor after another and no help finding anyone to treat me by anything other than the TSH, I decided to count my blessings and be happy in my current state. Ok, it ain't great, but it is what it is.
Then out of the blue in 2011, my weight suddenly took a jump way up to 242 pounds. I was stunned when I saw that number on the scale, I kept looking to see who else was on the platform with me. My TSH had also jumped up accordingly, but the doctor said I was still 'normal' and I couldn't blame the thyroid for putting the extra flabbage on me.
Alas, it was me, all me...so on New Year's Day 2012, I joined an online calorie counting website, curtailed my consumption of junk food, bought a food scale, took up aerobic/ walking six days a week and weightlifting three days and slowly over the course of about ten months, 34 pounds came off; I was down to 208. And then I hit a plateau for over a year. Still obese, still on Synthroid, still treated only by TSH in normal range.
Doctor wanted me to aim for 150 as a healthy weight for me at 5' 9" tall...ok, well...that fifty-eight pounds is a long, long way away yet......and exercise is difficult when still hypo-symptomatic. I kept on keeping on, but eventually my thyroid caught up to me this spring. I found I had to give up on the weight lifting, my muscle soreness was not abating, even when I dropped down to lower weights. I kept up with the walking, though. I have maintained the weight loss which is good, at least I didn't yo yo back up.
Fast forward to this year and finally getting on Armour, going through two more doctors and bioidentical hormone therapy which threw glad-to-be-menopausal me back into adolescence again due to too much estrogen (another fly in the ol' ointment.....) and now I finally find this doctor who treats the right numbers, but who also comes with a diet clause attached. He doesn't want me to cut my calories to ridiculous levels, and he wants me to eat nutritiously, but it's up to me to find the food I can eat that will hit all the numbers while still steering clear of dairy and gluten. Uh, ok.
And I agree about the supplements, I didn't notice the soy and wheat ingredients in the one he gave me until I got home last night. I sat there and laughed (because it's preferable to crying, which gives me sore eyes.)
The soy thing just floored me, I couldn't believe my ears. Soy yogurt? And here I thought soy was a no-no for thyroid patients. Hence, my problem with diet recommendations because how many times haven't the advice we've been given from mainstream practitioners and nutritionists been proven to be wrong in the past? They don't come right out and say, "Ooops, we made a mistake," but it would be refreshing if they did. LOL
But since I've started on Armour, with no change to my calories and actually a much curtailed exercise regimen, my year-long plateau seems to be breaking, I'm down to 202. Coincidence, or just because I have to fast so much for lab work, lol?
How would he know if I didn't follow the diet restriction? I have no idea. I'm not totally dead-set against changing my diet a little more, I could stand to cut back on bread, and have already given up most of the cookies/desserts/junk food two years ago, though I'm not 100%. I do allow myself a small treat of dark chocolate every day at lunch, and it seems to satisfy me. My dairy consumption consists of one cup of homemade yogurt a day, one ounce of aged cheese here and there, and I do not drink milk very often if at all, maybe once a month.
He did talk about some blood test we could do that would give me an idea of what allergies I may have, and in my mind, that would be a better first step than cutting everything out first, but I have a warped mind, apparently.
And yes, Barb, he sold me the supplements. These are a little different than the supplements the holistic NP sold me a month ago, and though they are pricey, they are much, much cheaper than the NP's so, I didn't feel TOO bad about paying for them...that is, IF I need them. I am very aware of 'follow the money', I thought the same thing.
MD did also change my BHRT to a different ratio of hormones and only with creams, no pills or patches, so we'll see how that goes, right now I'm cold turkey with that. (Wait, can I eat turkey??) I asked if it was necessary for me to even take BHRT, and he said it is, something about adrenals and this and that and the next thing. It's not that I don't have faith in the doctor, I guess it's my skeptical nature and a close eye on my ever-shrinking pocketbook.
I'm going to have to make up my mind on the diet, I have another appointment in a month............
I have a skepticism about the diet restrictions. I don't have much faith in it, sad to say. Not because I don't want to eat healthier, but because I have watched several family members and friends go gluten free and then on to dairy free to meat free to (what else is left-free?) and they don't look healthy.
They claim to feel 120% better and that is wonderful for them, but why do they look so emaciated and anemic? Where is the stamina? And for that matter, where is their joy in living? Again, I know it is none of my business what other people eat and if they do go 'free' something/everything and feel better, then of course by all means, carry on. But I would think health is also reflected in a person's appearance and vitality too, so seeing them walk in pain and look older than their years doesn't make me a believer. And two of them have been recently diagnosed with Hashi's. If the diet is supposed to 'cure' the disease, why did they develop it?
So what does a non-believer do? I was on Synthroid for 20 years and had been hovering at between 190- 200 pounds, give or take. I knew I was obese, but I felt lousy and after trekking to one doctor after another and no help finding anyone to treat me by anything other than the TSH, I decided to count my blessings and be happy in my current state. Ok, it ain't great, but it is what it is.
Then out of the blue in 2011, my weight suddenly took a jump way up to 242 pounds. I was stunned when I saw that number on the scale, I kept looking to see who else was on the platform with me. My TSH had also jumped up accordingly, but the doctor said I was still 'normal' and I couldn't blame the thyroid for putting the extra flabbage on me.
Alas, it was me, all me...so on New Year's Day 2012, I joined an online calorie counting website, curtailed my consumption of junk food, bought a food scale, took up aerobic/ walking six days a week and weightlifting three days and slowly over the course of about ten months, 34 pounds came off; I was down to 208. And then I hit a plateau for over a year. Still obese, still on Synthroid, still treated only by TSH in normal range.
Doctor wanted me to aim for 150 as a healthy weight for me at 5' 9" tall...ok, well...that fifty-eight pounds is a long, long way away yet......and exercise is difficult when still hypo-symptomatic. I kept on keeping on, but eventually my thyroid caught up to me this spring. I found I had to give up on the weight lifting, my muscle soreness was not abating, even when I dropped down to lower weights. I kept up with the walking, though. I have maintained the weight loss which is good, at least I didn't yo yo back up.
Fast forward to this year and finally getting on Armour, going through two more doctors and bioidentical hormone therapy which threw glad-to-be-menopausal me back into adolescence again due to too much estrogen (another fly in the ol' ointment.....) and now I finally find this doctor who treats the right numbers, but who also comes with a diet clause attached. He doesn't want me to cut my calories to ridiculous levels, and he wants me to eat nutritiously, but it's up to me to find the food I can eat that will hit all the numbers while still steering clear of dairy and gluten. Uh, ok.
And I agree about the supplements, I didn't notice the soy and wheat ingredients in the one he gave me until I got home last night. I sat there and laughed (because it's preferable to crying, which gives me sore eyes.)
The soy thing just floored me, I couldn't believe my ears. Soy yogurt? And here I thought soy was a no-no for thyroid patients. Hence, my problem with diet recommendations because how many times haven't the advice we've been given from mainstream practitioners and nutritionists been proven to be wrong in the past? They don't come right out and say, "Ooops, we made a mistake," but it would be refreshing if they did. LOL
But since I've started on Armour, with no change to my calories and actually a much curtailed exercise regimen, my year-long plateau seems to be breaking, I'm down to 202. Coincidence, or just because I have to fast so much for lab work, lol?
How would he know if I didn't follow the diet restriction? I have no idea. I'm not totally dead-set against changing my diet a little more, I could stand to cut back on bread, and have already given up most of the cookies/desserts/junk food two years ago, though I'm not 100%. I do allow myself a small treat of dark chocolate every day at lunch, and it seems to satisfy me. My dairy consumption consists of one cup of homemade yogurt a day, one ounce of aged cheese here and there, and I do not drink milk very often if at all, maybe once a month.
He did talk about some blood test we could do that would give me an idea of what allergies I may have, and in my mind, that would be a better first step than cutting everything out first, but I have a warped mind, apparently.
And yes, Barb, he sold me the supplements. These are a little different than the supplements the holistic NP sold me a month ago, and though they are pricey, they are much, much cheaper than the NP's so, I didn't feel TOO bad about paying for them...that is, IF I need them. I am very aware of 'follow the money', I thought the same thing.
MD did also change my BHRT to a different ratio of hormones and only with creams, no pills or patches, so we'll see how that goes, right now I'm cold turkey with that. (Wait, can I eat turkey??) I asked if it was necessary for me to even take BHRT, and he said it is, something about adrenals and this and that and the next thing. It's not that I don't have faith in the doctor, I guess it's my skeptical nature and a close eye on my ever-shrinking pocketbook.
I'm going to have to make up my mind on the diet, I have another appointment in a month............
COMMUNITY LEADER
Really? He insists on you going g/f, then prescribes a pill with wheat? Did you mention that to him?
I agree with ahmee that there's no way that soy product is better for you than homemade yogurt!!
The doctor is also wrong that the antibodies will attack other parts of your body. Thyroid antibodies are specific to the thyroid and once all healthy thyroid tissue is gone, they will go into remission. Because you already have one autoimmune disease, the chances of you getting another are already greater than for the general population without an autoimmune disease. That's a given, whether you go gluten/dairy free or not. I'm an example of that, with Hashimoto's and Pernicious Anemia and am now being tested for more autoimmunes.
I wouldn't give up, both, gluten and dairy without solid evidence that it's necessary i.e. show me labs that say I have celiac or a proven sensitivity to dairy!! There are no scientific studies that prove giving up any food group is advantageous, unless one has an allergy or sensitivity to it.
I know you really like this doctor and pinned a lot hope on him. I agree with ahmee - you can either pretend to go along with the diet or simply tell him you don't feel that's necessary (at which point, he may fire you as patient), or attempt the diet for a month or so, then tell him you don't think it's doing any good. I, personally, have cut back on the amount of bread and other things like that, simply because I get bloated if I eat too much of them -- but give it up completely? nope.
I'd like to see scientific studies showing that PABA500 will get rid of TGab -- it won't or this would be a common practice, and would be considered a "cure" for Hashimoto's, for those who have the TGab and we all know there is no cure!!
It's a tough choice to make, but this might be one of those cases where you have to "follow the money", particularly, if he sold you all those supplements he recommended.
I agree with ahmee that there's no way that soy product is better for you than homemade yogurt!!
The doctor is also wrong that the antibodies will attack other parts of your body. Thyroid antibodies are specific to the thyroid and once all healthy thyroid tissue is gone, they will go into remission. Because you already have one autoimmune disease, the chances of you getting another are already greater than for the general population without an autoimmune disease. That's a given, whether you go gluten/dairy free or not. I'm an example of that, with Hashimoto's and Pernicious Anemia and am now being tested for more autoimmunes.
I wouldn't give up, both, gluten and dairy without solid evidence that it's necessary i.e. show me labs that say I have celiac or a proven sensitivity to dairy!! There are no scientific studies that prove giving up any food group is advantageous, unless one has an allergy or sensitivity to it.
I know you really like this doctor and pinned a lot hope on him. I agree with ahmee - you can either pretend to go along with the diet or simply tell him you don't feel that's necessary (at which point, he may fire you as patient), or attempt the diet for a month or so, then tell him you don't think it's doing any good. I, personally, have cut back on the amount of bread and other things like that, simply because I get bloated if I eat too much of them -- but give it up completely? nope.
I'd like to see scientific studies showing that PABA500 will get rid of TGab -- it won't or this would be a common practice, and would be considered a "cure" for Hashimoto's, for those who have the TGab and we all know there is no cure!!
It's a tough choice to make, but this might be one of those cases where you have to "follow the money", particularly, if he sold you all those supplements he recommended.
Honestly, if it was me, I would be happy I'd found a good thyroid doctor, and ignore the rest re: dietary restrictions and supplements (unless I felt I really needed any of them). You can either tell the doctor you don't want to follow the diet protocol, or just pretend that you are following it. Either way, that's what *I* would do. Some people are really convinced that gluten and dairy are big culprits for autoimmune issues. I am not one of those people, personally. And there is no way a processed soy product is better for you than homemade yogurt!
If you think the additional 1 grain is too big of a leap (it kind of is), just increase slowly, by 1/4 grain at a time (use a pill splitter if you have to-- hopefully he wrote the prescription for three 1-grain pills, if not you can request this from the pharmacy). When I was raising, I went up by 1/4 grain every 1-2 weeks as I felt was necessary. You can always go slower if you want to, but you will know pretty quickly if you are turning hyper. You might eventually experiment with splitting the dose evenly, ie 1.5 grains a.m., 1.5 grains p.m. Some people swear by taking 2/3 in a.m., 1/3 p.m. but I feel much better with an even split, so it's different for everyone. Just some things to think about.
If you think the additional 1 grain is too big of a leap (it kind of is), just increase slowly, by 1/4 grain at a time (use a pill splitter if you have to-- hopefully he wrote the prescription for three 1-grain pills, if not you can request this from the pharmacy). When I was raising, I went up by 1/4 grain every 1-2 weeks as I felt was necessary. You can always go slower if you want to, but you will know pretty quickly if you are turning hyper. You might eventually experiment with splitting the dose evenly, ie 1.5 grains a.m., 1.5 grains p.m. Some people swear by taking 2/3 in a.m., 1/3 p.m. but I feel much better with an even split, so it's different for everyone. Just some things to think about.
Had my appointment with the new doctor today. Just a refresher:
I have been on Armour 120 since October 10. (I realize that this is only nineteen days, and I mentioned this to the doctor.)
My latest labs for thyroid:
FT3 3.50 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 0.89 (Range 0.76-1.46)
No TSH was ordered.
The doctor felt that since my FT3 didn't change and my FT4 went up only a little bit that it is time for another increase to Armour 180. I'm to take 120 in the morning and the additional 60 before lunch.
I asked if that was maybe a tad too fast, he said if I have hyper symptoms, I should let him know, but he didn't think it would be a problem.
My cholesterol levels being elevated didn't bother him too much; he prescribed Pantethine 450mg.
Cholesterol 270 (0-199)
Trigylceride 137 (0-149)
HDL 58 (40-59)
LDL 185 (0-99)
But here's the big one: I am to go gluten-free and dairy-free FOREVER.
(This is written in big, bold red letters on my take-home instruction sheet.)
Oh, boy, forever is a long, long time. I was afraid of this.
I asked him why the diet change was necessary since I probably don't have any thyroid function of my own left for the autoimmune antibodies to attack. As you've all told me (and I agree) if there's no hope of 'curing' Hashimoto's, then what is the point of the strict diet? What about the nutritional deficiencies, especially when it comes to cutting out dairy?
He said he follows Dr. Jonathan Wright's protocol as it pertains to diet and supplements. He agreed that it is probably true I don't have any thyroid function of my own left, but the autoimmune component can then go on to wreak havoc and/or cause other ailments, such as rheumatoid arthritis, etc.
I said I was really, really going to miss my homemade yogurt, and he said I could make soy yogurt. I said, "Soy? Isn't that bad for thyroid?"
He said there's been some studies that may (or may not) have disproven that soy is bad for thyroid patients. ?
He did recommend a few more supplements new to me:
Chelated calcium/magnesium
Pantethine
PABA 500mg (supposed to remove anti-TG antibodies)
Super Critical Omega 3
Ubiquinol 200mg
Thyroid Synergy
Endothelial Defense w/pomegranate
5HTP 100mg
Multivitamin
along with the other laundry list I took on my own...Vitamin D3, magnesium, Vitamin C, melatonin etc. etc. etc...and yeah, I know, this isn't cheap.
One thing for sure, by the time I take all my supplements, I won't be too hungry. And speaking of hungry, I was going to have a sandwich...ah, no, I guess I won't. ;-(
Here's my question, what would you do if you were me? He is the only doctor I have found so far who would check more than the TSH, and though my former GP did finally break down and give me a trial on Armour back in July, I know without a shadow of a doubt if I were to go back to her that one look at my non-existent TSH levels and I'd be back on Synthroid so fast my head would spin.
Do I take the supplements and try the restrictive diet even though my heart ain't in it? (I find it amusing and confusing that one of the supplements he gave me has both soy and wheat as an ingredient....ummmmm...isn't that gluten?)
He was pretty serious about the diet. I'm pretty bummed about the diet.
Opinions are welcome....now I'm gonna search my kitchen for something with no gluten and dairy. Wish me luck.
I have been on Armour 120 since October 10. (I realize that this is only nineteen days, and I mentioned this to the doctor.)
My latest labs for thyroid:
FT3 3.50 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 0.89 (Range 0.76-1.46)
No TSH was ordered.
The doctor felt that since my FT3 didn't change and my FT4 went up only a little bit that it is time for another increase to Armour 180. I'm to take 120 in the morning and the additional 60 before lunch.
I asked if that was maybe a tad too fast, he said if I have hyper symptoms, I should let him know, but he didn't think it would be a problem.
My cholesterol levels being elevated didn't bother him too much; he prescribed Pantethine 450mg.
Cholesterol 270 (0-199)
Trigylceride 137 (0-149)
HDL 58 (40-59)
LDL 185 (0-99)
But here's the big one: I am to go gluten-free and dairy-free FOREVER.
(This is written in big, bold red letters on my take-home instruction sheet.)
Oh, boy, forever is a long, long time. I was afraid of this.
I asked him why the diet change was necessary since I probably don't have any thyroid function of my own left for the autoimmune antibodies to attack. As you've all told me (and I agree) if there's no hope of 'curing' Hashimoto's, then what is the point of the strict diet? What about the nutritional deficiencies, especially when it comes to cutting out dairy?
He said he follows Dr. Jonathan Wright's protocol as it pertains to diet and supplements. He agreed that it is probably true I don't have any thyroid function of my own left, but the autoimmune component can then go on to wreak havoc and/or cause other ailments, such as rheumatoid arthritis, etc.
I said I was really, really going to miss my homemade yogurt, and he said I could make soy yogurt. I said, "Soy? Isn't that bad for thyroid?"
He said there's been some studies that may (or may not) have disproven that soy is bad for thyroid patients. ?
He did recommend a few more supplements new to me:
Chelated calcium/magnesium
Pantethine
PABA 500mg (supposed to remove anti-TG antibodies)
Super Critical Omega 3
Ubiquinol 200mg
Thyroid Synergy
Endothelial Defense w/pomegranate
5HTP 100mg
Multivitamin
along with the other laundry list I took on my own...Vitamin D3, magnesium, Vitamin C, melatonin etc. etc. etc...and yeah, I know, this isn't cheap.
One thing for sure, by the time I take all my supplements, I won't be too hungry. And speaking of hungry, I was going to have a sandwich...ah, no, I guess I won't. ;-(
Here's my question, what would you do if you were me? He is the only doctor I have found so far who would check more than the TSH, and though my former GP did finally break down and give me a trial on Armour back in July, I know without a shadow of a doubt if I were to go back to her that one look at my non-existent TSH levels and I'd be back on Synthroid so fast my head would spin.
Do I take the supplements and try the restrictive diet even though my heart ain't in it? (I find it amusing and confusing that one of the supplements he gave me has both soy and wheat as an ingredient....ummmmm...isn't that gluten?)
He was pretty serious about the diet. I'm pretty bummed about the diet.
Opinions are welcome....now I'm gonna search my kitchen for something with no gluten and dairy. Wish me luck.
COMMUNITY LEADER
I think we've been through most of your questions in your various threads, as well as PM's, but I'll try to address them all in one place.
I'm not surprised that your FT levels haven't changed much; after all, you had only been on the increased dosage for 12 days, prior to the latest labs. Nothing with thyroid happens overnight.
High cholesterol is a hypo symptom and because your levels aren't where you need them, yet, I'm not surprised yours is high. Cholesterol levels also depend, somewhat on exercise, so if you aren't exercising, that may have a bearing also. To statin or not to statin is going to be between you and your doctor. I, personally, refused Crestor, when my old pcp insisted on it, because I wanted to see how my cholesterol would react to thyroid hormone. Mine, tracks my thyroid hormones and exercise levels. Thyroid hormones and/or exercise go down, cholesterol goes up. Aside from that, studies have shown that lowering cholesterol levels with statins does not protect one from heart disease.
Hormones are produced by the endocrine system; this includes, but isn't limited to thyroid, adrenals, reproductive. All the hormones have to work together and be in balance. Remember, though that it's normal for hormone levels to drop off as we age; that's where menopause comes from. The fact that your began bleeding after you started the BHRT could mean that either you weren't quite ready for menopause, or you don't need the hormones; maybe you just need them to be balanced better.
In my opinion, supplements really only help if one is low in something or has a special need for them; for instance vitamin B12 -- if one is deficient, then it can make a world of difference in the way we feel, but if not, it probably won't make a difference at all. My doctor has recommended Fish Oil for me because it can help lower cholesterol levels, and can also help get rid of belly fat. I also take probiotics and digestive enzymes because I have a problem with digestion. I take magnesium because it helps with joint aches/pains and is necessary for adequate absorption of calcium, which I also take, because of osteopenia. If you don't have the same issues I have, those supplements might not help you. There is no "across the board" requirement for any particular supplement. It simply depends on what your body needs, and what you need this month, may not be what you need next month.
As far as the diet protocol, I'm in agreement with, both, gimel and goolarra... if one has an allergy or sensitivity to a certain food, by all means, they should give it up. If not, why go through that? No matter how long a person has had Hashimoto's, whether it's 20 years or 20 days, there is no cure for it. I can only "assume" that the arthritis the doctor is referring to is rheumatoid arthritis -- that's another autoimmune and as we've said, once a person has one autoimmune disease, chances of getting another are that much greater; if one is prone to autoimmune diseases, I don't think diet changes are going to do much. If the doctor gives you an ultimatum and says he won't treat you if you don't do the diet thingy, you'll have to decide whether keeping him for your doctor is worth going through something that probably won't make much difference.
Anything is possible, but since you've been hypo as long as you have, presumably, with Hashi's, I'd say the chances that your thyroid is actually producing any hormones is slim to none. Hormone levels can fluctuate for a lot of reasons, so the fact that you have to adjust your dosage periodically, isn't unusual. AND you have no idea just when your thyroid might have stopped working and making adjustments as the thyroid dies off, is a normal part of the process. Even if it IS producing a little bit, it's not nearly enough and you shouldn't plan on bringing it back to full life; once the damage is done, there's no repairing it.
Hope this helps put things in perspective for you.
I'm not surprised that your FT levels haven't changed much; after all, you had only been on the increased dosage for 12 days, prior to the latest labs. Nothing with thyroid happens overnight.
High cholesterol is a hypo symptom and because your levels aren't where you need them, yet, I'm not surprised yours is high. Cholesterol levels also depend, somewhat on exercise, so if you aren't exercising, that may have a bearing also. To statin or not to statin is going to be between you and your doctor. I, personally, refused Crestor, when my old pcp insisted on it, because I wanted to see how my cholesterol would react to thyroid hormone. Mine, tracks my thyroid hormones and exercise levels. Thyroid hormones and/or exercise go down, cholesterol goes up. Aside from that, studies have shown that lowering cholesterol levels with statins does not protect one from heart disease.
Hormones are produced by the endocrine system; this includes, but isn't limited to thyroid, adrenals, reproductive. All the hormones have to work together and be in balance. Remember, though that it's normal for hormone levels to drop off as we age; that's where menopause comes from. The fact that your began bleeding after you started the BHRT could mean that either you weren't quite ready for menopause, or you don't need the hormones; maybe you just need them to be balanced better.
In my opinion, supplements really only help if one is low in something or has a special need for them; for instance vitamin B12 -- if one is deficient, then it can make a world of difference in the way we feel, but if not, it probably won't make a difference at all. My doctor has recommended Fish Oil for me because it can help lower cholesterol levels, and can also help get rid of belly fat. I also take probiotics and digestive enzymes because I have a problem with digestion. I take magnesium because it helps with joint aches/pains and is necessary for adequate absorption of calcium, which I also take, because of osteopenia. If you don't have the same issues I have, those supplements might not help you. There is no "across the board" requirement for any particular supplement. It simply depends on what your body needs, and what you need this month, may not be what you need next month.
As far as the diet protocol, I'm in agreement with, both, gimel and goolarra... if one has an allergy or sensitivity to a certain food, by all means, they should give it up. If not, why go through that? No matter how long a person has had Hashimoto's, whether it's 20 years or 20 days, there is no cure for it. I can only "assume" that the arthritis the doctor is referring to is rheumatoid arthritis -- that's another autoimmune and as we've said, once a person has one autoimmune disease, chances of getting another are that much greater; if one is prone to autoimmune diseases, I don't think diet changes are going to do much. If the doctor gives you an ultimatum and says he won't treat you if you don't do the diet thingy, you'll have to decide whether keeping him for your doctor is worth going through something that probably won't make much difference.
Anything is possible, but since you've been hypo as long as you have, presumably, with Hashi's, I'd say the chances that your thyroid is actually producing any hormones is slim to none. Hormone levels can fluctuate for a lot of reasons, so the fact that you have to adjust your dosage periodically, isn't unusual. AND you have no idea just when your thyroid might have stopped working and making adjustments as the thyroid dies off, is a normal part of the process. Even if it IS producing a little bit, it's not nearly enough and you shouldn't plan on bringing it back to full life; once the damage is done, there's no repairing it.
Hope this helps put things in perspective for you.
I had the free consultation with the new doctor October 18. He looked through all the lab tests posted above and asked why I was seeing him since the NP had ordered the right labs. I told him she didn't like my suppressed TSH levels and thought she should refer me elsewhere, though she had reluctantly raised Armour from 90 to 120 on October 10.
The new doctor said, "Tell her you don't care what your TSH is."
Well, that's the first time I ever heard that from a doctor, lol....then he said I had room to go up on my Armour, judging from the test results I had done in late September:
TSH 0.191 (Range 0.358-3.740)
Free T3 3.50 (Range 2.30-4.20)
Free T4 0.78 (Range 0.76-1.46)
He agreed to see me as a new patient and ordered another set of labs which I had done on October 22.
Here are the results of what I have so far:
FT3 3.50 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 0.89 (Range 0.76-1.46)
(Doctor did not order TSH. The lab tech was shocked.)
I realize I was only on the 120 Armour dose for twelve days when this latest lab test was done, so maybe the levels haven't had time to stabilize, but I was surprised to see the FT3 hadn't changed, but the FT4 had gone up a little. I had asked him about possibly adding a bit of T4 to my meds, but he didn't answer that question yet.
My symptoms have improved a little since the raise in dose, though with only the small raise in the FT4 levels, I'm surprised. I'm not as dizzy or weak and the hard-pounding heartbeats have gone down about 75%, though I am still aware of my heart beating harder than is normal for me. Headaches have abated and the GERD has become much better, too, but isn't completely resolved. I have a tad more ambition, but I'm not out running marathons just yet.
He also ordered:
Magnesium 2.0 (1.8-2.4)
CRP 0.5 (0-0.3)
Homocysteine 8.9 (3.2-10.7)
Cholesterol 270 (0-199)
Trigylceride 137 (0-149)
HDL 58 (40-59)
LDL 185 (0-99)
Yes, the good ol' cholesterol is elevated yet again....so disappointed.
He also ordered a heavy metal screening which the lab tech said needs to be redone due to using the wrong test tube and an insulin test which hadn't come back in yet.
I have my first official appointment with this doctor on Tuesday. His clinic is an 'integrative practice' meaning he also specializes in bioidentical hormone treatments. I hope he can help me out in this area, too, because after one month on my former NP's regimen of BHRT, I am having side effects of bleeding and breast tenderness. I was hoping for relief from what ails me, but darn, I don't need the return to 'those' days every month. :-(
The new doctor said he didn't think my hormones were balanced correctly and said he would prescribe a cream-based regimen of hormone delivery instead of pills and patches.
I know this is a thyroid forum and not a BHRT forum, but this doctor feels that the hormone levels throughout the entire body all work together and if I'm having issues with the BHRT, it will also affect the thyroid. I'm thinking maybe the BHRT was a mistake for me, though I do feel a little better, the side effects are not worth it.
And this is also when he brought up the autoimmune 90 day elimination diet, too, since he feels with Hashi's the flareups will continue unless I get them under control.
But goolarra made an interesting point on another post, what are the chances I have any natural thyroid function left after 22 years? The doctor said the autoimmune component doesn't just attack the thyroid, but also joints (as in arthritis) and a host of other issues. As I've read elsewhere on this forum, no one has high hopes of 'curing' Hashi's, especially if it's gone on as long as mine has, but why my levels fluctuate so much every few years is puzzling.
So this is where I am at the current time. This next appointment will be interesting, I'm sure. I am on a long list of supplements which both the NP and this new MD think are essential (read: costly). My insurance plan does not cover any of this since 'integrative medicine' is not covered, so once again, everything is out of pocket. I guess it's hard to know if I'm doing the right thing or not or just throwing good money after bad, but if this doctor is willing to treat me by symptoms and not lab results, all I can do is see how it goes.
If anyone has input on the following:
1. My current FT3/FT4 levels
2. Cholesterol levels (to statin or not to statin, this is the question)
3. Whether other hormones really need to be 'balanced' or am I falling for 'Woo'?
4. Whether supplements are as vital as they're made out to be.
5. Thoughts on the autoimmune diet protocol. Is it worth a try?
6. Whether it's possible my poor ol' thyroid is actually still working at all after all this time and mismanagement.
The more information I have going in to this appointment, the better. I've learned more here on this forum than I have from the last fifteen doctors. Thank you all!
The new doctor said, "Tell her you don't care what your TSH is."
Well, that's the first time I ever heard that from a doctor, lol....then he said I had room to go up on my Armour, judging from the test results I had done in late September:
TSH 0.191 (Range 0.358-3.740)
Free T3 3.50 (Range 2.30-4.20)
Free T4 0.78 (Range 0.76-1.46)
He agreed to see me as a new patient and ordered another set of labs which I had done on October 22.
Here are the results of what I have so far:
FT3 3.50 (Range 2.30-4.20)
FT4 0.89 (Range 0.76-1.46)
(Doctor did not order TSH. The lab tech was shocked.)
I realize I was only on the 120 Armour dose for twelve days when this latest lab test was done, so maybe the levels haven't had time to stabilize, but I was surprised to see the FT3 hadn't changed, but the FT4 had gone up a little. I had asked him about possibly adding a bit of T4 to my meds, but he didn't answer that question yet.
My symptoms have improved a little since the raise in dose, though with only the small raise in the FT4 levels, I'm surprised. I'm not as dizzy or weak and the hard-pounding heartbeats have gone down about 75%, though I am still aware of my heart beating harder than is normal for me. Headaches have abated and the GERD has become much better, too, but isn't completely resolved. I have a tad more ambition, but I'm not out running marathons just yet.
He also ordered:
Magnesium 2.0 (1.8-2.4)
CRP 0.5 (0-0.3)
Homocysteine 8.9 (3.2-10.7)
Cholesterol 270 (0-199)
Trigylceride 137 (0-149)
HDL 58 (40-59)
LDL 185 (0-99)
Yes, the good ol' cholesterol is elevated yet again....so disappointed.
He also ordered a heavy metal screening which the lab tech said needs to be redone due to using the wrong test tube and an insulin test which hadn't come back in yet.
I have my first official appointment with this doctor on Tuesday. His clinic is an 'integrative practice' meaning he also specializes in bioidentical hormone treatments. I hope he can help me out in this area, too, because after one month on my former NP's regimen of BHRT, I am having side effects of bleeding and breast tenderness. I was hoping for relief from what ails me, but darn, I don't need the return to 'those' days every month. :-(
The new doctor said he didn't think my hormones were balanced correctly and said he would prescribe a cream-based regimen of hormone delivery instead of pills and patches.
I know this is a thyroid forum and not a BHRT forum, but this doctor feels that the hormone levels throughout the entire body all work together and if I'm having issues with the BHRT, it will also affect the thyroid. I'm thinking maybe the BHRT was a mistake for me, though I do feel a little better, the side effects are not worth it.
And this is also when he brought up the autoimmune 90 day elimination diet, too, since he feels with Hashi's the flareups will continue unless I get them under control.
But goolarra made an interesting point on another post, what are the chances I have any natural thyroid function left after 22 years? The doctor said the autoimmune component doesn't just attack the thyroid, but also joints (as in arthritis) and a host of other issues. As I've read elsewhere on this forum, no one has high hopes of 'curing' Hashi's, especially if it's gone on as long as mine has, but why my levels fluctuate so much every few years is puzzling.
So this is where I am at the current time. This next appointment will be interesting, I'm sure. I am on a long list of supplements which both the NP and this new MD think are essential (read: costly). My insurance plan does not cover any of this since 'integrative medicine' is not covered, so once again, everything is out of pocket. I guess it's hard to know if I'm doing the right thing or not or just throwing good money after bad, but if this doctor is willing to treat me by symptoms and not lab results, all I can do is see how it goes.
If anyone has input on the following:
1. My current FT3/FT4 levels
2. Cholesterol levels (to statin or not to statin, this is the question)
3. Whether other hormones really need to be 'balanced' or am I falling for 'Woo'?
4. Whether supplements are as vital as they're made out to be.
5. Thoughts on the autoimmune diet protocol. Is it worth a try?
6. Whether it's possible my poor ol' thyroid is actually still working at all after all this time and mismanagement.
The more information I have going in to this appointment, the better. I've learned more here on this forum than I have from the last fifteen doctors. Thank you all!
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In Sept. on 90 mg of Armour, your labs show FT3 above middle of the range, but your FT4 at very bottom of range. For patients taking Armour, relief from hypo symptom usually is associated with having FT3 in the upper third of the range and FT4 around the middle of the range. Since you still have symptoms, there is plenty of room to raise your Armour, if necessary. You could also add a bit of T4 med to raise your FT4 toward middle of the range. One question I have here is whether you took your Armour med before blood draw for those tests?
One other area that I notice is the B12 is way over range. If this is due to taking supplements, then you should back off. Excess B12 can also cause symptoms.
"Side Effects of Too Much Vitamin B12
Because vitamin B12 is a water soluble vitamin, it is difficult to overdose or build up vitamin B12 toxicity. This is because excess amounts of water soluble vitamins not used by the body are typically excreted in the urine. While there aren't very many side effects of too much vitamin B12 to be concerned with, there are a few things you should be on the lookout for if you are supplementing vitamin B12.
•In rare cases, excess B12 supplementation may cause some numbness or tingling in the arm, hands and face.
•Excess vitamin B12 may contribute to anxiety symptoms such as panic attacks.
•Too much vitamin B12 may contribute to or cause insomnia.
•Prolonged excessive consumption of vitamin B12 may exacerbate the symptoms of mitral valve prolapse.
•Excess vitamin B12 intake may exacerbate hyperthyroidism.
•There appears to be a link between megadoses of vitamin B12 and certain cancers.
•Rashes may occur with excess B12 supplementation."
Just a few more comments. Don't let your doctor panic about a suppressed TSH. That is a very common occurrence with hypo patients taking significant doses of thyroid meds. There are many scientific studies proving that. My TSH has been less than .05 for well over 30 years, with no identified adverse effects.
Also, if not tested for Vitamin D, and magnesium, I would suggest those.