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Could thyroid hormone decrease be causing these symptoms?
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Could thyroid hormone decrease be causing these symptoms?

.After 3 weeks of feeling fatigueed and foggy on the increase of 30 -60 mg of dessicated thyroid I cut back to 30 mg.  I couldn't function on the 60.  It's been three weeks and I'm still experiencing severe sweats, and depression.  I'm thinking just as I was increased too quickly, maybe I reduced too quickly.  I read where people are usually increased by 15 mg for two to three weeks.  I'm wondering with this depression if I should try increasing 15 mg.  What are your thoughts on this?  Appreciate any feed back or testimonails from others.  Many Thanks. .
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649848_tn?1357751184
I always have a problem with a doctor who picks a target result, just for the sake of it.  It's entirely possible that FT3 at 6.0 would be too much for you, or possibly not enough.  The idea is to alleviate symptoms, not just hit a target number.

Triglycerides are normally run, with other cholesterol tests; were there any others done, such as HDL, LDL, total cholesterol?

Your vitamin B12 looks good, so you can cross off any concern for that.  Since you are supplementing the A and E, I assume that the doctor plans to test them periodically, to see when they are adequate?

I agree that both your FT3 and FT4 are too low in their ranges, however, it's always best to increase/decrease by the smallest increments possible, in order to let your body get used to the changes, gradually.  You should talk to your doctor about increasing at a slower rate.  Desiccated medication has a lot of T3 in it and many people can't handle a lot of that, all at once.

Many doctors have the attitude that we should just trust them, because they are the doctor and know what to do........ that's not always the case; none of them are above reproach and the sign of a good doctor is one who will answer questions and make sure the patient understands what's going on, without feeling threatened.
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649848_tn?1357751184
Your dosing must be decided between you and your doctor, based on symptoms and labs.  If you haven't had labs for a while, you should do that to determine what your actual hormone levels are.  You should have TSH, Free T3 and Free T4 tested.  

Symptoms can "cross over" and might apply to either hypo, or hyper.  I've had sweats and depression/anxiety with hypo.

You should get labs, then decided on how to adjust your med.  Rule of thumb is to increase/decrease by very small increments.  Doubling/halving your med, all at once, is a huge change and it would probably take longer than 3 weeks to get used to such a huge change.  

If you have current labs, please post them for us to better assess your situation and possibly comment further.  Be sure to include reference ranges, as those vary lab to lab and have to come from your own report.
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Avatar_f_tn
I posted my labs of which Gimel replied to previously. I will post them for you to peruse and your comments.  I went to an N.D. who is also an M.D.  He put me on 30 mg of dessicated hormone.  I felt well for 6 weeks.  I then became depressed due to Celexa w.d.'s.  I went back to see him and he doubled the thyroid med from 30mg to 60mg.  This was when the difficulty arose.  I was unsteady on my feet, fatigueed, couldn't get out of bed in the morning.  I endured this for three weeks.  I was on holiday and couldn't get in touch with this Dr. so I decreased on my own to 30 mg.  Since that time I've been having nausea, instability on my feet, forgetfullness, emotional outbursts and excessive sweating.  As you mentioned Barb and I assumed, I decreased too rapidly just as this N.D increased me too quickly.  He should've known better, he's the professional. I'm not too happy with him as he never explained what could happen, just said increase to 60 mg.  The depression subsided after 10 days but otherwise I felt horrible.

.He. seems pretty thorough, although his beside manner is the pits. He did 18 vials of blood in June. He seems to have the attitude I know what I'm doing "trust me", which ticks me off!  He's sending me for thyroid blood work every month.    My August results were free t3 ~ 4.8  (3.5 - 6.5).  Free t4 ~12.7 ( 9.0 - 23.0) Tsh 2.10.

My vitamin A was down ( 1.1) so I'm on 6 drops of that per day, @ 5000 units per drop. The scale is ( 1.5 - 3.5)   Vitamin E  was 27 ( 12-45).  He also has me on vit E.  My sugars were also high6.1 ( 4.3-6.1).  Triglycerides 2.14 high also.  Cortisol was high 639 ( 120-620) .  Vitamin B12 was I think 932 if I'm reading this correctly.  It says normal ^150 pmol/L.  
, My ferritin is 106 (12-300)> He didn't say it should be adjusted.  He told me he wants my freeT3 at 6. ( 3.5 - 6.5).

Thanks for your assistance Barb.  I appreciate your feed back.





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649848_tn?1357751184
I always have a problem with a doctor who picks a target result, just for the sake of it.  It's entirely possible that FT3 at 6.0 would be too much for you, or possibly not enough.  The idea is to alleviate symptoms, not just hit a target number.

Triglycerides are normally run, with other cholesterol tests; were there any others done, such as HDL, LDL, total cholesterol?

Your vitamin B12 looks good, so you can cross off any concern for that.  Since you are supplementing the A and E, I assume that the doctor plans to test them periodically, to see when they are adequate?

I agree that both your FT3 and FT4 are too low in their ranges, however, it's always best to increase/decrease by the smallest increments possible, in order to let your body get used to the changes, gradually.  You should talk to your doctor about increasing at a slower rate.  Desiccated medication has a lot of T3 in it and many people can't handle a lot of that, all at once.

Many doctors have the attitude that we should just trust them, because they are the doctor and know what to do........ that's not always the case; none of them are above reproach and the sign of a good doctor is one who will answer questions and make sure the patient understands what's going on, without feeling threatened.
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Avatar_f_tn
Thank you so much for your reply..  I really appreciate your and Gimel's previous info.  N.D.'s attitude has been really bothering me.  I'd felt so well on the 30 mg. and had trust in him unlike my G.P.  That trust has been somewhat eroded when as a professional he would double the dosage without explanation. I was emotional that day, and he determined it was w.d's from the celexa. He commented it's like recovering from heroin, handed me the perscription and said I'll see you in October!  I was upset so didn't question him!  I may add, I'm paying per visit for this treatment, as N.D.'s are not covered by our medical in Canada.  He also requires that you fill in a form as to why you've made the appt. so he can cover the problem in 10 minutes, which seems to be his alloted time per patient.  The inital visit  and allergy testing was 480.00.  The labs are covered by my insurance.  I was on holiday with the symptoms from teh increase and called his office.  The nurse talked to me, wouldn't put me through to him, as he was busy with patients.  She said take 60 mg one day and 30 the next.  I said I can't tolerate the 60, so decided on my own to reduce to 30 mg!

My cholestrol testing was 5.00 (^<6. 20)  HDL 1.42  LDL 2.61
Total chol/Hdl ratio 3.5

I have been on cholestrol meds for 20 years.  He told me to quit taking them.  He said once we get your thyroid under control your cholestrol will be fine. I was apprehensive about this as my dad died of a massive heart attack at age 70, and I'm 67!   I asked him to test my cholestrol on an ongoing basis also as I was concerned, he said it will be fine!  

In your opinion do thyroid meds bring your cholestrol under control?

Many Thanks for your advice/info you've put my mind at ease.  You have been a better source of support than my Dr.  It bothers me when i don't know what is going on with my mind/body.  I so appreciate your assistance.
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Avatar_m_tn
Getting your thyroid levels at their optimum will benefit your cholesterol levels also.  My cholesterol used to run about 225-230 (range of 200 - 230.  With my meds at best level, my cholesterol has decreased to 167 and 185 in the last two tests.
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649848_tn?1357751184
Agree with gimel, that getting thyroid levels optimal can definitely benefit your cholesterol levels.  

In addition, exercise goes a long way toward bringing cholesterol levels down, as well.

For example, I have a "winter neighbor" who is here from Oct- mid Apr every year and while she's here, we walk together every day (or nearly so) for about an hour - we usually average 4-7 miles/day.  In Feb when my cholesterol was tested it was perfect; in Aug it was back up and the only thing that changed is that I stopped walking when my neighbor left. She will be back late tonight, so we'll start walking again and I'm sure that when I retest in Feb, my cholesterol will be back to normal.

High cholesterol is only one risk factor for heart attack; others include:

    Family history of high cholesterol or cardiovascular disease
    Inactive (sedentary) lifestyle
    High blood pressure
    Poor general health
    Having diabetes
    Overweight or obesity
    Smoking
    Narrowing of the arteries in your neck, arms or legs (peripheral artery disease)

If you have any of these other risk factors, the cholesterol med might not prevent a heart attack anyway.   That said, in my opinion, you should still have regular blood work to keep tabs on cholesterol levels.  My doctor checks mine every 6 months.
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Avatar_f_tn
I go to the treadmill three days per week usually.  I've had the flu though so haven't been able to accomplish as much.  

Could you or Gimel  give me an idea how long it takes for this extra thyroid to exit the body?  After I take the 30 mg in the morning I'm experiencing nausea.  This never happened before and I'm wondering if this is because the higher dosage is still in my body to some degree. I decreased on Sept 6.  This uncertainity is stressing me out.  I'm also still experiencing some tremours.  

I really appreciate your feedback.  
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649848_tn?1357751184
T4 medication has a long 1/2 life, so it takes several weeks (4-6) for it to leave the body; T3 medication has a short 1/2 life, so it's out of the system in about a week; some say less.

The treadmill is good; depends on how long you spend on it, and the intensity of your workout.  When my neighbor and I walk every day, we go at least 4-7 miles and the most it takes is an hour; at 7 miles/hr there's no way the grass will grow around our feet.

Your August results, don't indicate hyper, though, so I have to think the issue is doubling, then halving the medication dose.  Two drastic changes in a short time.

You  might try splitting that 30 mg pill and take 1/2 in the morning and 1/2 around noon...... most people taking medication with a T3 component, find that splitting it into more than one dose works best, because they aren't getting a "slug" of T3 all at the same time.
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Avatar_f_tn
I assume dessicated thyroid contains both T4 and T3 does it?  Sorry but I'm naive in this regard.  I do know I'm crying for no reason so assume it's the drastic change in doses.  I so hate feeling like this.

I spend 40 minutes on the treadmill at an elevation of about 12-14.  I go 2 miles or 350 calories, which ever comes first.

Thank you for the advice on splitting the dosage.  I'd thought of that but being such a minor dosage i discounted it, as previously the 30 mg. had been fine.   It's maybe a good idea though until this change rectifies itself. Many Thanks for your info Barb i so appreciate.
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649848_tn?1357751184
Yes, desiccated thyroid contains both T4 and T3....... Desiccated hormones are derived from pig thyroid and pig thyroids produce much more T3 than human thyroids do. So doubling or halving a dose of desiccated medication, is very drastic.

One grain (60 mg) of desiccated thyroid contains 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3.  

Treadmills and other exercise equipment tend to exaggerate the calorie burn.
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Avatar_f_tn
WOW so this could be the reason I'm depressed, increasing and decreasing too rapidly.  Would your advice be to increase/decrease in 15 mg. increments to prevent such withdrawls, for a two week time period?  My pills are 30 mg pills.   I am so frustrated with this N.D. for his irresponsible behaviour.  Firstly I go through a tough w.d. period coming off celexa after 8 months of hell, now this.  I trusted him until this episode ~jerk!  

You are very informed. Is this from self study due to poor medical advice?
Are you on dessicated as well?

I've been doing the treadmill since I retired eight years ago.
I enjoy it for the most part.  A few of us walk on Fridays in the river valley for five miles when the weather is nice here.  You live in a weather friendly part of the world, no winter.  We used to spend six weeks of winter in California/Arizona until two years ago when hubby had heart issues.  We can now get travel insurance.  Insurance companies seem to find any reason to reject a claim so it's rather unsettling!
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649848_tn?1357751184
Messing with your dosage like you did keeps your hormone levels all upset; you need to get on a dosage and let things settle down. You can either 1/2 the pills and try that or you can quarter them and let your body get used to smaller doses, at once.  You can do this yourself, but it's always best to discuss it with your doctor before changing doses.

Depression can be caused by, either, too little or too much thyroid hormone.

I started out with a doctor who knew very little about thyroid issues and he tried to dose me by TSH only, so as soon as my TSH hit the basement floor (< 0.01), he started pulling med away from me, even though I was still very hypo.  My FT4 was below range, and he refused to test FT3.  I found this forum and got a lot of help from members, so I stuck around to try to help others going through similar situations.  I, and other members, spend many hours researching to help others.

No, I'm not on desiccated hormones.  While I do need a small amount of T3, I don't need nearly as much as what's in desiccated hormones.

Our weather is not always friendly...... lol   Gets cold in winter, and summer is too hot to do much outside, unless it's done very early morning.
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Avatar_f_tn
I think I'll stick with the 30 mg since decreasing to that a month ago.  I felt well on it previously so maybe once things settle down i will again.  Do you think I should notice improvement in 6 weeks?  I'm hoping.  Depression is awful as it keeps you thinking about it.  

I have to have blood taken this month, then will reluctantly go back to see this jerk!  

I didn't realize Florida ( I believe that's where you reside) gets cold in the winter.  
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649848_tn?1357751184
You know best how you feel, and it's not a good idea to be changing doses all the time, so if you want to stay at the 30 mg for a while to let things settle out, I wouldn't see a problem with it, but again, always best to consult your doctor (covering my own butt, there..........lol).  

Some people would see an improvement in 6 weeks; others might not. We're all so different that it's really impossible to predict.  Yes, depression is bad, because it keeps the mind whirling.  My improvements were very slowly and subtle; didn't even always realize them, until one day I'd realized that the puffiness was gone from beneath my eyes, another day, I realized that my skin no longer felt like an alligator; another day, I realized that my hair wasn't like straw anymore....... these were all spaced out over time, along with others.  

Yes, I do live in FL and yes, it does get cold, in some parts of the state.  We sometimes get temps down into the teens at night, during the winter.  Fortunately, it usually warms up decent during the day, but not always. Also, fortunately, our winter is relatively short lived, unlike other parts of the country where it lasts for 1/2 the year, or more.
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Avatar_f_tn
I don't know about your journey but I've about had it with Drs.  I don't want to go back to him, as I've lost confidence!   I tend to dwell until things are rectified and with depression it's even worse.  I'm also distracted these days, have to really make myself focus, and yes puffy eyes!  I had none of the other symtoms (symptoms) except the original depression, which as I mentioned previously hit me periodically over the past 40 years.  After research I saw where stress and blood sugars are closely related to an improper functioning thyroid thus the trip to the N.D.  Did you ever have unsteadiness on your feet?  This was very prominent a week ago but seems to be diminishing.  
My family think I'm nuts, but they haven't lived this nightmare!  It's like anything else unless you've been in the shoes you don't have a right to judge. Temps in the teens I'd take those.  This is why you have so many Canadians there in the winter.  Temps in the teens will seem like "summer to them"!  LOL!

Thanks again for your info. I really appreciate, helps me to maintain my sanity!
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649848_tn?1357751184
For the most part, dwelling on things is counter productive and only makes matters worse, as you know.  It might be helpful to try to focus on other things.  

Puffiness under the eyes, is a classic hypo symptom.

While depression is quite common with hypothyroidism, that's not the only thing that causes it, so you might have another underlying issue with the depression.

Are you on an antidepressant?  

No, I never did have unsteadiness on my feet.   Was it a "dizzy" type of unsteadiness or a "weak" type.
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Avatar_f_tn
Yes I realize dwelling is counter productive.  My personality is such that I'm high energy, driven, and results orientated.  I get something in my craw and can't let it go, until a resolution.  This I have to try and over come, as you mentioned it just makes matters worse.  I felt so good on the 30 mg for 6 weeks, maybe I'll have those results again, once my hormone levels level out.
  I've had the flu for over two weeks which is frustrating in itself. it's hard to distinguish which symptoms are from what!  I'm still nauseated daily so called the N.D.'s nurse this morning. He said to swallow the med., instead of putting it under the tongue.  I'm thinking it's maybe a flu symptom though, as it comes and goes during the day.  

On a postive note I am much more relaxed since being on the Erfa, not the anxiety I once had.  I now just have to redirect my focus.

I was put on an A.D. but had nothing but problems so tapered down after several months.  The side effects were worse than the condition.  This is when I took matters into my own hands and found an M.D. that is also an N.D.  He did extensive tests 18 vials of blood in all!  

I'm also on Bio identical hormones.  I was on the estrogen patch for 25 years which was successful.  He asked me if I wanted to do the Bio identical, so decided to give it a try.  I switched back to the patch though when I was on the 60 mg as i had profuse sweating, however it didn't help so the increase was obviously the cause.

I've had a "difficult year" thus the frustration!  

The unsteadiness was a weak type of thing.  

Thank you for your thoughts and feed back ~appreciate.
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Avatar_f_tn
Just one other question.  I'm having body tremours could this possibly be due to the decrease in med?  It seems to be worse when I consume caeffeine.  Have you read any of these books?  TMI and overwhelming for me!
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649848_tn?1357751184
I've never heard of tremors being associated with thyroid medication, but anything is possible.

I do always have to point out that there comes a time, when we have to look at issues, other than thyroid for some of our symptoms.

You need to get on a dose of medication and not mess with it, for at least 4-6 weeks to see if your levels will stabilize, then go from there, always increasing/decreasing by the very smallest amounts possible.  

I'd suggest that you split your total dosage into multiple doses - at least 2, in order to keep the T3 steady throughout the day.

What books are you referring to?  I've read a lot of thyroid and/or diet books.  You have to take them all with a grain of salt, because no 2 authors agree on exactly the same things.
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Avatar_f_tn
My levels had stabilized and I felt well on the 30 mg., until the increase to 60, which in my mind totally srewed things up.  I'm presently on 30 mg so will take 1/2 in the morning and 1/2 at noon.  Is that what you suggest?  I became nauseous after taking the 30 mg this morning, also tummy cramps.  I swallowed it as he suggested.  I researched the net and found if you were getting too much Armour that you could experience nausea, and digestive problems.  I presently have both.  I'm confused as I didnt'experience these symptoms previously on 30 mg. thus I thought it was the flu, until realizing the nausea surfaced after ingesting the med.  Your thoughts?  

I had blood taken on Friday so will know results on Tuesday.
The books I'm referring to are the STTM ones.  I've read exerpts on line.

Thanks again fro your info.
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649848_tn?1357751184
I don't think you are getting too much Armour; could be, as you said, a flu type thing.  

Yes, 1/2 in the morning, and 1/2 around noon is what I was suggesting.  What happens when you take the whole dose at once, is that the T3 wears off after a few hours and you don't have enough left to get through the day.  

You may, eventually, be able to increase to the 60 mg, taking 30 in the morning, and 30 later in the day, but not right now.

I have read some of STTM books; however, I have little faith in either the books or the website.
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Avatar_f_tn
Thanks for the feed back Barb.,once again.  I did split the dosage yesterday taking 1/2 in the a.m. and 1/2 before lunch.  I was so tired though with the mid day dosing I had to lie down.  I don't know why this would be.  

In your opinion when do you think I should gradually increase to see if I can alleviate this tired, down feeling. I've been back on the 30 mg since Sept 6. I spoke with the Drs. nurse yesterday.  The blood work was fine, but not as good as August as I was on 60 mg.  I asked why he'd raise me from 30 - 60 as that's a 100% leap.   She said oh most people don't have a problem, you must be sensitive.  I said I am, I had all the hypo symptoms in spades!  I suspected increasing like this was "his norm"!  

I agree totally with your opinion of STTM.
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