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Hashimoto's patients, are you TH1 or TH2 dominant?

Hashi patients, do you know if you are TH1 or TH2 dominant? I'm TH2 dominant. Coffee and green tea make my neck swell. I've given up caffeine and I take my Echinacea and Golden Seal each day and the flareups are gone. (Well, except when I eat chocolate). Which are you? Do you know if what you're eating could be causing auto-immune flareups?

Below is a part of the TH1/TH2 transcript taken from a video by Dr. Geronimo. Here's Dr. Geronimo's website:
http://www.powaychiro.com

I don't have enough room to post the entire transcript.To read the full transcript see my journal entry below:
http://www.medhelp.org/user_journals/show/182243/Hashi-patients--Are-you-TH1-or-TH2-dominant

:) Tamra

"An autoimmune condition occurs when one branch of the immune system over dominates another branch. This is called an either a Th1 or Th2 dominance. A dominant TH1 response means that the natural killer cells and cytotoxic t cells are responsible for attacking the body, while a TH2 dominance indicates that your bcells and antibodies are mounting the attack. A blood test is needed to find out which branch is dominant. Thus to treat an autoimmune disease, it is critical to find the dominant branch and to balance the seesaw by stimulating the other branch. For example, if a patient’s autoimmune disease was TH1 dominant, treating it would require that we strengthen the Th2 side to balance out the immune system. If the patient were Th2 dominant, we would stimulate the Th1 side to regain balance. It’s a pretty simple solution, but so many people suffer needlessly because the immune system has been ignored, until now.

This is where clinical nutrition and natural medicine comes into play. It is well documented in clinical research that Th1 stimulants are Echinacea, maitake mushrooms and golden seal to name a few. Th2 stimulators are caffeine, green tea, and grape seed extract. So in the example I gave in the previous slide, if a patient with an under functioning thyroid is TH1 dominant, then I would prescribe supplements containing caffeine, green tea, and grape seed extract to stimulate the TH2 side to regain balance. If they were TH2 dominant, then Echinacea, mushrooms, and golden seal would balance out their immune system. Since most people with autoimmune conditions have no idea which branch of their immune system is dominant, they can actually make their condition worse by taking over the counter immune boosters. Lets say for example you were Th1 dominant and you catch a cold. A friend tells you that Echinacea helped them so you take it yourself. Unknowingly you would be flaring up your already dominant Th1 response and cause even more destruction to your thyroid gland."

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1098245 tn?1292545210
I just found out about the Th1 and Th2 last month, my Naturapath is getting me sample packs of some Apex supplements to take 3 times a day to see what branch is dominate so I can feed the lesser branch. Also I use LOW DOSE NALTREXONE (LDN) to treat my hashis autoimmune illness and help my Fibro pain.. I am on 2.5 mg for 7 months and has helped me avoid many pills of  OTC pain meds daily, plus a  better of mood and less anxiety! Do a search for it, hope it will help you!
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Avatar universal
I go to The Vitamin Shoppe. I know they have those N. Texas. I buy D in a liquid form because most gel caps have soy. I have been buying Wellesse liquid D at Wal-Mart but I calculated that I'm drinking 100 calories a day, so I'm back to the other kind. My daughter drinks 2,000 IU daily and takes a probiotic in preparation for flu season, since a majority of our body's immunity comes from the gut. I want her gut ready. I am taking 7,000 IU D daily and two probiotic pills by Nutri-West daily. I also take multi-vitamin capsules, loads of B12, 1,000 IU magnesium daily, C, 1,000 E, and a few others. I'm actually on a vitamin routine given to me by my holistic doctor. :) Tamra
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Avatar universal
Sorry you're going through this. Please make sure to take a good probiotic when you are on antibiotics. Yogurt usually isn't enough. Your local vitamin shop or health food store will sell a good probiotic. I take Nutri-West total probiotics. You can probably google it. I was taking two per meal when I was on antibiotics. Now I take two per day. :) Tamra
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393685 tn?1425812522
Bruce

read upon this information and try going gluten free to see of your condition improves. It may - with taking your meds as directed.
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1139187 tn?1355706647
Tamra,  my d and b12 were low.  I had to get injections for the b12.  How do you get the d?  Shot or pill?
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1220571 tn?1274841195
Man, when does it all end...finally after a yr. and three Dr. my thyroid is stable, and then I have a colonoscopy and endoscopy, and the Dr. found H. Pylori in my blood, and has me on 4 antibiotics, and just added another yesterday for a secondary infection...this is absolutely the pits. I can't help but think it will affect my thyroid function...but they tell me, no. I have to take this, as I call it, cocktail for 14 days...Urgh..!!
Hope you are all doing fine....I've stopped all of my supplements, as the antibiotics say, no iron, no calcium, niacin, etc...so just stopped them all, for now. I've had another hemorrhage in my eye, and lost more vision, and had laser surgery...I've never had so much illness all at once in my life...only 10 more days to go...Oh How I pray this works..and doesn't totally mess me up.
Good luck to all of you....Maybe I will get back on her regularly when I am feeling better....Sharon
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Avatar universal
I told Stella  I wouldn't be on here much. Just too much else going on in my life, but here's some natural options that have worked for me. I did do the Jernigan's Yeast Ease and parasite cleanse, but I found that Total Para and Total Yeast Redux by Apex energetics (or maybe Nutri-West, I forgot) worked best. Google Apex to find a supplier. I believe you can get it by mail. My holistic doc gave them to me.

If you can't afford those then try virgin coconut oil. My grocery store sells it now. Eat it plain, bake with it, etc. At least two tablespoons daily for yeast issues. It can also be a topical for rashes. Works great for me. Garlic and cinnamon also work great for parasites. But, speak with your doctor. You might need something stronger. Also, are you taking a good probiotic for the stomach? I take Total Probiotics by Nutri-West. There are many out there at vitamin stores, etc.  

I know what you mean about giving up foods. I've had to give up all grains for a while. Hopefully, I'll be able to incorporate at least rice and GF steel cut oats back into my diet, but, for now, I feel so much better eating protein and veggies. I'm not saying everyone do this. This is what is working for me.

If you are TH2 dominant, look to flavanoids that could be causing reactions such as berries. Also, the sugar in fruits could be causing insulin spikes, and is not good for adrenals. I had to cut back on my fruit intake, limiting it to one banana a day and one apple.

Many Hashi patients will need 5,000-10,000 IU vitamin D daily. This could be a big source of your problems. I take far more D, E, C, B12, iron, magnesium than the average person. Everyone is different, but my body needs the following daily intake:
D - 5,000 IU daily
Fish oil capsules...1980 mg EPA and  1020 mg DHA
Iron – 65 mg
Vitamin E – 270 IU
B6 – 20 mg
Folic Acid – 580 mcg
B12  - 174 mcg
Magnesium – 800-1,000 mg
Zinc – 28 mg
Selenium – 200 mcg
Vitamin A – 1700 IU
Vitamin C –1000 mg
Vitamin E - 1,000 IU
There are other vitamins I take that come with my multi pack, but too many to list.
:) Tamra
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393685 tn?1425812522
Lots going on here and eliminating the parasites and candida for sure is first.

I believe there are numerous products you can take with your doctor - instead of prescriptions to rid this. Its time consuming and expensive for some however.

I don't have a specific brand to offer you in trying - sorry

Vit D - low = autoimmune issues... Are you Hashi's too? In all essence of Vit D - Vit D-3 is best to take

You fit the entire theory here on Tamra's information and she would be someone to go over all this with since it sounds like you have confirmed TH2 and TH1 indifferences.

I haven't seen her much here lately so I am not sure exactly on if her suggestion will be on here.

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Avatar universal
Hey, I stumbled on this whilst researching. It's got some great advise thanks to everyone who posted. I need help on converting my th2 back to th1. I have so many allergies yet chronic infections that I can't shift. I have adrenal insufficiency and suspected hypothyroidism which I was taking natural desiccated thyroid for but I have come off the thyroid hormones as to see where in range I am in my bloods however I am still getting both hypo and hyper thyroid symptoms(my mother and many of my family members suffer with this along with other auto-immune illnesses). Since being on the HC which I need to live the th2 has further increased and consequently the th1 has decreased. I already have a very strict diet, no gluten, no diary, no soy, no eggs, no yeast, no fructose but I am reacting to every food I eat. I recently had a stool test come back which showed a parasite endolimax nana along with an infection morganella morganii which is an opportunistic infection, both of these only occur or are problematic in immune suppressed patients. I then have a massive amount of candida despite being on such a strict diet, anti fungals and probiotics. My specialist has recommended anti-biotics for the parasite and infections but I'd rather use natural products as anti-biotics can open you up to further infections. I am very ill, housebound and have been for the majority of the last 3 and a half years. I have picked infection up after infection and not been able to get rid of them. I live in the U.K so it's hard to find specialists to help in this area. I want to try to help myself with supplements first. I also need to fight off the candida if I am going to improve my gut and therefore improve my immune system. However I feel my only way of doing this is using prescription drugs as I am intolerant to all foods it seems even rice. If anyone can recommend any supplements that are well tolerated and effective for the candida I'd really appreciate it. I saw Tamara W you recommended Yeast Ease by Jernigan's Neutraceuticals, please could you tell me what is in the product. There is another product that interests me on there web-site called Paragen for parasites. Can anyone tell me if they have experience with this and if they know what is in the products. I also have a incredibly low Vitamin D level, 25 OH vitamin D level 8.6 ug/L. I have been taking 2000iu of Vitamin D for at least 6 months. I'm thinking of getting Vitamin D injections as I live in the U.K and won't be able to get outside for much longer it's already becoming cold. Any help would be much appreciated. I keep coming back to the same place that if I am going to help myself I need to help the TH2 convert back to TH1 as all my problems seems to be related to this. Please help if you can. Thanks for reading xxx
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Avatar universal
I just wanted to say thanks for recommending the book.  I am not sure if I am TH1 or TH2 yet, I just bought it yesterday.  From what I've read so far it is very interesting. I can see why so many of us have endoctrine problems. I also wish all doctors and a copy of the booik in their office.   I'll let you know how I make out after reading this.

Thanks Again
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1220571 tn?1274841195
I also found on Mayo Clinic site, that if you have the coat on the tongue, check with your health care professional and see if you have diabetes or Thyroid disease... Well, I guess that kind of answered my question...never having heard of it, I was too willing not to accept it!
I purchased numerous dry mouth items, tooth paste, mouth wash, spray to carry with me, and gel. they are helping, more that I expected.
Next week, I have laser surgery on my R. eye, and can only wonder how much the thyroid is affecting my glaucoma, and vision loss.
Have a wonderful day, and weekend...
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1220571 tn?1274841195
Thank you, so much for the article...I tried numerous thrush recommendations...from the health food store, to no avail....the Dr. still insists it is not fungus, but rather dry mouth syndrome...I'm going to run it by my psychiatrist in June...he has thyroid himself....and suggested I needed to have it cultured...so will ask him to do that...also I feel that I need a blood draw before the end of Oct...I guess I can think and feel all I want, but if I can't get anyone to hear me, than I am stuck....Having only Medicare leaves me with my hands tied...so to speak...so many in our state are cutting off Medicare patients...
I'll quit my griping, and if something gets out of whack, that seems an obvious problem, I'll call my PCP....Yes, I am feeling frustrated....sorry to be so negative....
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Avatar universal
Below is an article from Mary Shomon about T4/T3 treatment vs the standard T4 only therapy. A new study shows T4/T3 therapy superior.

Drink Virgin coconut oil for the thrush. Seriously. 1 tbsp per day and work up to three per day over a few weeks. Also, quit gluten, yeast and sugar for a few days and see if you feel better.

http://thyroid.about.com/b/2010/05/17/t3-superior-t4-levothyroxine-hypothyroidism-thyroid.htm
:) Tamra
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1220571 tn?1274841195
Has anyone else experienced a white coat on the tongue, and grit on the teeth, when I take a drink of water it tastes bitter...the Dr. treated me with diflucan for 5 days, and it did nothing! He asked if I am a mouth breather? And, suggested it is dry mouth syndrome, it all started when I was given the radio active iodine. He said, he did not thing that would cause this...I guess I wonder if it is either one medication, Levo, or Synthroid, or the Hyomax for IBS...though I went off of it for several days, and had no relief what so ever...just lots of discomfort from IBS....Does anyone have suggestion as to how to get some measure of relief from this,....I brush my teeth and tongue several times a day...chew gum and dissolve altoids in my mouth, I also use Biotene toothpaste and mouthwash....This is the pits...I don't see the Dr. again until Oct. our town is really hurting for medical professionals...and available appointments. Thank you, for anyone who may have experienced this or has some suggestions.
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1220571 tn?1274841195
Re read my post, NOT a CT scan, BUT rather an ULTRA SOUND, of the thyroid....sorry for the mistake....My brain knew what I meant, but my fingers did not type it!
Thrush is back as bad as when it began...I do see the Dr. today...for that! Hopefully I can get some other questions answered, as well...
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1220571 tn?1274841195
Where can I find the information, about why we need to have FT3 and FT4 as opposed to T3 & T4? I'm trying to learn what I don't know! I want to learn all I can about this autoimmune disease, since I have to live with it...I also want to take facts to my Dr. and see how he responds to them...He seems like a Dr. who will research it, and not just po po it....I don't even know what questions to ask, at this stage of the illness, but am trying to learn.
Thank you.....so much.
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1220571 tn?1274841195
I've had one biopsy, my Dr. said, he plans to do another...I know he has me scheduled for a CT scan in Oct., and blood work...
Thank you, so much, what a help and blessing you have been to and for me...
;-) Sharon
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Avatar universal
Hard nodules are more worrisome. I would not stress over this nodule. Request a biopsy to be sure. It is less painful than a trip to the dentist. So glad the mouth thrush is improving. :) Tamra
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1220571 tn?1274841195
My biopsy did state that No psammoma bodies are identified. Hurthle cells with admixed lymphocytes to suggest hashimoto's thyroiditis are not identified. The findings are most consistent with nodular hyperplasia. Clinical follow up is recommended.
Ultra sound: Neck...She has 2 cm soft nodule that appears to be on the superior pole of the right thyroid. It moves when swallowing. There is no vervical or supraclavicular adenopathy.

As of now that is what I have...I am seeing him tomorrow for the mouth thrust, as a work in...but hope to get some questions answered, like why 6 months? Will he order FT3 and FT4. Also could he order labs ongoing for every 6-8 weeks until I see him again...Hopefully this visit will get some questions answered.
Thank you, for caring, and your suggestions.
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Avatar universal
Sharon, I hope you never have to go to that doctor again. Also, please write him a letter so that he doesn't do this to another patient. Starting at 100??? Most patients start at 25. If they are young and relatively healthy, then 50.

Most people with Hashimoto's have nodules. And if the docs are putting you on Synthroid, then you most likely have Hashimoto's, not Graves.

If the nodule is over 2.0 cm, then the surgeon will recommend removal because it is too big to biopsy. If it is under 2.0 cm, then the Synthroid should shrink it if it is benign. Thyroid nodule cancer is slow growing and has a high success rate because it takes forever to spread. Don't worry too much about the nodule. Just find out how many you have and the size of each. You can read it on the radiology report. Get the report printed from your doctor's secretary. It is your right as a patient to have this information as well as your lab results.

Get your TPOab and Tgab tested and post results here on a new thread. Those are the Hashi antibody tests. Also, get your FT3, FT4 and TSH results and post them here. Those are your thyroid levels. FT3 is particularly important as it is the most active level. TSH, a pituitary hormone, not so much, but most doctors will have a fit if you leave that off the test.

:) Tamra
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1220571 tn?1274841195
Actually, my Dr. has not said, I have either graves or hash...but I do have a goiter, and nodule...my previous Dr. started me right away on Levo 100mcg oh my gosh, I was so sick for a good 3+ mo. my psychiatrist ask why in H---did he start you on 100mcg? I said, I don't know, maybe he was trying to kill me...every time I went in with more symptoms I would loose 3# a week...I basically lived on my sofa...couldn't eat...etc...it was awful, the thrush in my mouth was so thick and disgusting tasting...I would brush my teeth and tongue many times a day, only to have it come right back....more than once I felt like I did not want to fight anymore...I was so so miserable....so got a new Dr. and he got me down to 44mcg and called me normal after about 8 weeks, and told me to come back in 6 mo. I so disagree with him, I feel like I need a few more "normal" blood draws, before being released to wait 6 months.....I kept bugging him, until he finally gave me a 30 day sample of Synthroid to try...I told him, I think the Levo. is a big part of my mouth and lips problem...as I taste the Levo in my mouth immediately, and within 20 min..have wretched heartburn...he said to wait 2 weeks, now figure that one out....today was my day to start the synthroid...I could be all wet, or ? but I think I am feeling better, my mouth is feeling like I have a tongue in it, instead of it being all smooth and taste like Levo...even my lips are seeming to feel some better...Maybe I am wrong...but I was so sure that Levo. was part of my problem....certainly not all...but part...now of course, I want to be right, so that I can tell him...it was not all in my head. I'm even feeling all the sores in my mouth, on the roof etc...before I could see them, also the coat on my tongue and inside my mouth, roof of mouth and throat was the color of the Levo. pill. I've very drug sensitive....and I always use a smaller dose than most...
As for the eyes, I think the thyroid played a role, as when on the 100 then 88mcg...I would get these awful headaches starting on the bone behind my ear, and it would go up the side of my head on one side, and concentrate on the back of my eye, and it would switch eyes...for several days...I now have one eye lid that droops down to where my pupil starts...so many weird things....What a blessing it would be, if the Synthroid would work for me...also I did not get the heart burn or taste with it, and I just started it today...I'm hoping...You may be able to relate, I want it to work so much so that I can say...without using the exact words, I was right, see I told you so!!!!
Thank you, for the avoid iodine tip, I'll try that...just in case...also, my eye Dr. told me that I had the kind of nodule that is usually cancer, but that it is slow...Lovely...So much to learn....I also just read that in older patients you start them with low does and work up, not the other way around...I'll quit for now...I'm just blown away by how different my mouth is feeling...in just one day, or a different pill....unbelievable...not totally gone but so much better...And, I have an appointment with him Friday to let him look at my mouth......I'm going anyway if it gets better...I have questions about the length of time before my next blood draw...and do I have graves...etc...so many he did not answer....Sorry, I said, I was going to quit and didn't. Thank you, so much....SK
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Avatar universal
People with Graves goiters typically can have eye problems. It can also happen with Hashi goiters as well. Last summer, before diagnosis, it felt like someone had punched me in both eyes. My ears would hurt as well. No fun.

I don't know if your RAI caused this, but sometimes you'd be amazed at how many of our ailments are connected. I'm convinced my issues began in the gut. 80 percent of the body's immunity comes from the gut, and yet we bombard our guts with sugar, starch, dairy, artificial sweeteners, artificial preservatives, etc. No wonder auto-immune cases are on the rise.

People with Hashi should generally avoid iodine as it can cause the immune flare up to become worse. I use sea salt without added iodine. You can find it in the salt section. Since you had Graves, right? I have friends who've had Graves who use iodine with no ill affects. Try to avoid kelp based iodine as there have been a few reported deaths linked to kelp.

This is a learning process. I've had to adjust my way of looking at food, especially what is put into food. It seems anything can be put in food nowadays and the FDA just turns the other cheek. Just do a Google on Bromide, found in Mountain Dew and many breads. Nasty stuff. Look at how many foods marketed toward kids  have high fructose corn syrup and artificial flavors.

I'm totally back to basics now and my body is responding. Organic lean chicken baked in olive oil with roasted garlic and natural spices like Rosemary and Thyme with some sea salt. GF brown rice. Organic, natural salad dressings. No soy. No dairy or corn. It takes some getting used to, but it's fun creating new recipes, and luckily, hubby wants to eat healthy as well.

:) Tamra
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1220571 tn?1274841195
No Kidding!
Thank you, for all of the great sites you sent....
I started Synthroid today, as the Dr. two weeks ago, when he said, I was stable, blah, blah, blan, gave me to try, but said, wait 2 weeks...Go figure....although he had given me an RX for prilosec...it only takes a few days if that, for me to have reactions and or side affects to a med...so I a ASSUMING, that is why the 2 week wait...I'd called his office to phone in an RX for Tagament the only one that I have ever been able to take without side affects...(wish I didn't have to use any) He wants me off of it because my breasts were tender the day of my visit, and I mentioned it...I figured it was from the hormone imbalance in my system...I know my testosterone and progesterone are very low, and estrogen is high. I learned that from my gynecologist....I have severe vaginal atrophy, not fun...He didn't even check those..to my knowledge...
I have some new issues....unrelated, I think to the thryoid...saw my eye Dr. 2 days ago, and have lost more vision, with my glaucoma, he said, more than he thought...so he said, we have got to get aggressive, now about your glaucoma treatment...so have laser surgery on the 25th. he said, sometimes it works, sometimes not...he need to relieve the pressure in my eyes...and the goal is to lower the pressure and preserve the L eye that has not had any optic nerve damage, yet...Yesterday that got to me emotionally, as my vision is blurry anyway, and has been for the past 4 months..also need both cataracts removed. Now I did not sign up to be the actress in the old morton salt commercial...if you are younger, there was a very cut commercial years ago, with a little girl holding and umbrella, advertising Morton Salt, I think that was about the time they added iodine...not sure though. The commercial said, when it rains, it pours.
Have a great day....again......thanks for the sites. SK
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Avatar universal
BTW - It's a shame your eye doctor isn't an endo! :) T.
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