Naturethroid increase ...looking for insight

Hi Everyone,

Finally, i found a new general practitioner.  I dropped my endocrinologist  after he told me he was sure I was eating too many calories.  i told him i was exercising regularly and eating strictly, but  he said i wasn't working out hard enough as he could tell by looking at me that i could not run for an hour.  Im about 15 pounds overweight. ...was that really necessary?  So frustrating...anyway enough with my rant.

My new doctor actually believes in testing t3 and t4!  He looked at my last test results. T4 .7 and tsh 1.8 and upped my naturethroid from 65. To 130. Oh I also had low vitamin d.   I took 1.5 pills for a week and then upped to 2 for the last 3 weeks.  I will be getting the results of dhea, free t3  &4,  am cortisol, and progesterone any day now.  

This last week I have felt my heart pounding really hard in the morning and night when I'm lying down.  I think it's all day but I only notice when i stop moving.  Heart rate seems not to go over 90 but that's high for me.  I am going to the doctor in a week and a half.   I have been doing a lot of reading and am wondering if I should back off the meds.  I have no other symptoms though that would indicate hyper.  If anything I'm more tired and feel like I need a nap after work..  The extra dose doesn't seem to be doing anything good but is it too early?  What are your thoughts? I can post my lab work too when it comes in if it helps.

Thanks in advance.  This forum has so many people that have so much background on this disease.

Thanks,
Laura

[LazyMoose]

OK, so it dropped .1  after four weeks.

Many people experienced with dessicated meds just prefer to use 1 grain sizes (60mg). - and split them for dose increases. Thats the best way for increasing, it easy too, just your prescribed amount (#) goes up then, the pillls are the same type.

So in your case the pills are different. I wonder if they have different fillers in the different sizes of the  NT brand. The downfall of swallowed thyroid meds is the absorption in the stomach- or lack of it. All the better reason to chew and let desolve in your cheek. The capillaries will carry the thyroid hormone into your blood.

You are not taking any viitamins in 4 hours of NT are you?

As you are figuring out, hypothyroid becomes a science project for many of us - homework included.

[LazyMoose]

".........upped my naturethroid from 65. To 130"

- that is a big increase. Its double. Can be hard on you . Any dessicated natural thyroid is really best increased approx 15mg per two weeks.  If you still get the 65mg tablets (x 2 per day) these can be approximately split into quarters with a pill splitter. But.....your past that now LOL! Oh well.......

Upping meds to fast can result in hyper symptoms, which you might be noticing in heart palps. I didnt see where you said how long you have been on this new dose. Best to test in 6 weeks. But 65 to 130 really should have been made in two phases, 5-6 weeks for each, with two testing times. Oh well, your Dr fast forwarded time frame that I guess.

Oddly, there are more than a few different T4. T3, Free T4, Free T3 ranges which test results fall into depending on the test equipment used. So we really need to see the ranges provided on your test report result sheet. Remember T's and free T's are not the same.

[Lulu407]

Hi,

Thanks for looking at this.Before increasing the medication (on 65 mg), my tests were:

Vitamin d  24 range (30-100)
tsh        1.8    (.4-4.5)
free t4    .7 ( .8-1.8)
total t3  80 (76-181)

I will post the new numbers that probably are more relevent as soon as they come in. Should be today or tomorrow.

[LazyMoose]

"he could tell by looking at me that i could not run for an hour"

- what an #@$% of a Dr to say that to you.   95% of the population cannot run for an hour. Many professional athletes cannot run for an hour but they are the best at other athletics.

Do you take vitamin D yet?

Your free T 4 was obviously low. It usually does not get past mid range on dessicated meds. On dessicated meds, the Free T3 is what limits your dose and what makes you go hyper. Its more powerful energy wise.

Total T3 should be ditched in favor of free T3. Free T3 is whats available and not bound the protein in your blood. Total includes T3 that is bound to proteins and will not be used in the cells then.

I still don't see how he concluded that you should double your dose. It would have been smarter and safer to go up 1/4 grain or 1/2 grain per day, then test in 5 weeks.

[Lulu407]

ok so here  is the update.  please bear with my lack of specifics....

Since last posting I went to my new doctor because I started to get pins and needles in my hands and feet and my left arm was going numb on and off.  The final straw was when my lips started feeling numb as well.

I went in for a visit and found out my test results .  
No tsh done
Freet4. .7  reference range started at .8
Free t3 320 I remember it was almost midway on the reference.
Dhea was 3/4 high on range
Cortisol am upper range
B12 high over range roughly 1200


Doctor said symptoms were unrelated to thyroid and he could not help me any further...I was fixed. Strangely enough my t4 was worse and he had no reference for my freet3  No advice about tingling or heart rate said it seemed fine.   Referred me to his wife, a doctor who does not accept insurance to deal with my issues.  

I was so confused as to his lack of knowledge/advice that I ran out of there regretting that I took the double dose at all.

Probably not the best thing to do but with my new lack in confidence I went back to my old dose.  I scheduled an immediate appt. with old endocrinologist ,the jogger:) , who told me that tingling could be a thyroid issue.  He is running tests....thinks I'm low.

How could I have been low with the double dose, a coincident?  Or could an increase deteriorate my response.  Anyway, waiting for results he said he'd call me over the weekend.  The fast heartbeat went away but the tingling and numbness continues on. I'm pretty scared and worry am I about to have stroke or heart attack.  Doesn't make sense how my t4 went down (slightly) with double the dose.

Any input would be great...my husband, I think, may be very tired of hearing about this!

[LazyMoose]

Its a good thing your looking places besides your clueless Dr for answers.

Half the battle in the beginning is finding a Dr that is not clueless AND has an open mind. If they dont have both you wont get anywhere.  This means educating yourself on thyroid as well, which is what you are now doing. You might need to start over, Its your decision.

I would sugests asking your pharmacy (if local) where you get the Nature Throid if they could offer names of other Drs in the area that prescribe dessicated meds (including Armour brand).

You need to get copies of your tests results with ranges and save them yourself. In the US, the law states its the patients right to lab copies. Do all your pills look the same. Same markings as well?

Both of your tests state FT4 is .7 but you mentioned it went down slightly, did I miss something here? Looks like it stayed the same even though you doubled your dose. Are they the same pills, same markings?

It takes at least 4 weeks after increasing meds to show increase in thyroid lab values.

Many get  fast heartbeat, tingling and numbness when hypo. So it could be from that.

Are you taking the NT on an empty stomack, then waiting roughly the same time each day to eat 45 min to an hour?.

You might try chewing and letting absorb inn you cheek for better absorbsion.

[Lulu407]

Thanks for the quick reply.  I made a mistake ...my second test was .6 free t4.  It was exactly 4 weeks when I had the lab work done this past time. I always take it on an empty stomach for two hours before eating. They are both naturethroid but one is marked 1 grain while the other is 2.  It seemed strange ..like the increase didn't match the results.  Do you think these symptoms are in response to the increase or maybe it was coincidental that I was dropping even though I had an increase.  I just wish the mouth numbness would go away.  That and a random left arm pain that comes and goes is especially scary.  I'm eager to get my latest blood work.


On another note, next time I will get my own lab work copy.  I was so surprised with the doctors comment I just wanted to get out of there and forgot.

[LazyMoose]

OK, so it dropped .1  after four weeks.

Many people experienced with dessicated meds just prefer to use 1 grain sizes (60mg). - and split them for dose increases. Thats the best way for increasing, it easy too, just your prescribed amount (#) goes up then, the pillls are the same type.

So in your case the pills are different. I wonder if they have different fillers in the different sizes of the  NT brand. The downfall of swallowed thyroid meds is the absorption in the stomach- or lack of it. All the better reason to chew and let desolve in your cheek. The capillaries will carry the thyroid hormone into your blood.

You are not taking any viitamins in 4 hours of NT are you?

As you are figuring out, hypothyroid becomes a science project for many of us - homework included.

[Lulu407]

Ok i see your point.  They are different.  I will see if I can research more about naturethroid and fillers. Also,  I don't take any vitamins in that time frame.  

Again thanks sooooo much.  I will update you with the latest labs..if you are not sick of me inundating you with questions,  when they come in.

[LazyMoose]

FYI, the T4 hormones ability to be absorbed properly is sensitive to fillers and proteins (food). The T3 hormone is not sensitive to food, not sure about the fillers.

I have recently read instances where people said Armour did not have the same fillers in different sizes. How they came to this idea is not known since Armour is known not to talk to individual users of their product.

On the other hand, I have personally spoken with a technical individual at RCL Labs (Nature Throid) in the past. Unfortunately this product worked better for many individuals before 2009 when the FDA forced them to change formulation.

Since you already on it, makes sense to try the sublingual method and adjust dose according to near future labs. If you still dont get desired results, there is always the newer US made NP thyroid by Acella (Target, Walmart and Walgreens can order this) or Armour.

The high B12 is something to ponder about. Do you take B12? Overdosing on B vitamins can result in nueropathy (tingling) too.

[Lulu407]

Well in a strange turn of events I ended up at the Er this weekend.  My arm hands and feet were numb.  They admitted me and several days later I was diagnosed with central stenosis.  The tingling  was completely unrelated to the thyroid.  I think the initial heart rate was me adjusting to the med.  now I have a whole new set of issues to research........who wold have thought.  

The Er did say my b12 was down to 900 which was reasonable.  Suddenly my thyroid seems less important, but maybe this issue isn't that bad?

[LazyMoose]

Hope you get to the bottom of this. Nerve issues are no fun.

Names of spinal issues are somewhat vague in description and based on individual opinions. I'm sure they explained that central stenosis can be nerve sheath narrowing (impingement) anywhere along the spinal column.

If you had many hypo symptoms accompanied with overall muscle soreness and pain leading up to this point, then you could say spinal nerve issues might be related to being hypo thyroid in some individuals.

In some hypo people, tight muscles in previously weakened or stressed areas can be tense enough to pull vertebra out of alignment at a disc, causing radiating extremity pain, which can be a form of stenosis if visually noticeable on a MRI sectional view. I had personal experience with this, it was not fun at all.

Thyroid function does have a direct influence on muscle health, strength and their ability to relax, which in turn, influences the skeletal alignment. The level of this, or how it is felt depends on the individual - that is the tricky part.

[Lulu407]

It's interesting that you have had some experience with stenosis as well. Hmmm I wonder if that's common with thyroid issues.  Does yours bother you now?

I  saw the spine specialist and he said although I have mild stenosis that is not my problem.  I then saw a neurologist who said I have peripheral neuropathy? I think.  She believes I am having an autoimmune reaction. Also thinks I may be having a reaction to naturethroid. When I first took naturethroid I got a restless leg response, she thinks that it was an autoimmune response and that the increase created this response bringing the autoimmune issue to the surface.  I am taking an emg and they are checking for a slew of autoimmune diseases.  I started taking synthroid and cytomel again and within two days I have seen improvement.  I guess time will tell.........

[LazyMoose]

One thing most spinal terms have in common: they can all sound worse than what they are sometimes. The varying degrees of Stenosis can be caused from many reasons that are not necessarily permanent. Yes, my symptoms have greatly improved from my very hypo years. For me it was relasted to hypothyroid muscle myopathy (muscle weakness and muscle tissue breakdown).

Peripheral neuropathy, in addition to being cause from Diabetes, can also be an issues associated with other autoimmune diseases, hypothyroid being just one. In hypothyroid the degree of peripheral neuropathy is usually greatest when your thyroid levels are hypo (not surprising). This has been reported here : numbness in hands, feet  and legs while hypo. I've had that too, its 90% better.

Both of the two issues above when accompanied by low thyroid levels usually include some degree of muscle pain and tightness that put pressure on nerve shieths- do you have that?

Obviously you wont be trying nature thyroid again. I dont recall why you switched from synthroid/cytomel?

If in the future for some reason you what to try dessicated again, the new Acella NP thyroid is supposedly very close to original Armour pre 2009 - many like it.