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Is it always necessary to decrease your Synthroid dosage when you start Cytomel?  I'm on week 2 of the Cytomel but my doc did not have me decrease the Synthroid and feel kinda funky. My heart is pounding a little hard at times, my tongue is burning, and I feel very alert. Like a very heightened sense of "alert."  Should I call the doc or have I not given it enough time yet?
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Avatar universal
Well, you don't have to totally abandon him if you're not comfortable with that.  There's nothing wrong with a second opinion.  I'm hoping he'll hit the books tonight...tell him to log in to the forum!  Sometimes I think those of us in small towns have it easier in some respects...endos at least seem to be "generalists" and not diabetes specialists.  You can "interview" potential endos over the phone (and probably through a nurse) before making an appointment...at least get an idea if their practive is 99% diabetes.  Another good question is which tests they regularly order for their thyroid patients and which therapies they're open to (T4 only, T3/T4 combos, dessicated).  It does weed them out somewhat.  I actually made up a multiple choice questionnaire and faxed it around.  It only took a few minutes of their time.  Just bothering to answer was a big plus...
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Avatar universal
To Marez210, did you have RAI?  My dentist told me that having RAI does something to your teeth as it affects your salivary glands.  After my RAI my teeth ached horribly. I also think it has something to do with being a little on the hyper side. My dentist told me that he has seen numerous cases of gum and teeth issues several years down the road with people having RAI.  I'm 43 years old and got my first cavity 6 months after having RAI. I sufferered from bad dry mouth, sore tongue, canker sores, you name it. It's gotten better over time though.

To Goolarra,  Now I just don't know what to do. I really think I need to find an endo that is more informed on these issues.  I had a feeling today that I was telling him stuff he wasn't sure about. Like maybe tonight he may be doing some research. The trouble is that most endos around here specialize in diabetes. I'm torn because I hate to just switch to another doctor when this one has my history and knows me so well. I just have a feeling that I'll be diagnosing and treating myself.  Although, he is the one who actually found my cancer when two other doctors told me I was fine. If it weren't for him I don't know that I'd be alive right now. So, it's a tough situation to be in. Something has to change though. I can't go on damaging my body because of his ignorance. Gotta make some calls tomorrow and start shopping around. Ugh..
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Avatar universal
Hi, what is the connection between teeth hurting and thyroid? My teeth sometimes ache a lot; I've always thought it was because I'm a grinder/clencher, but maybe it's thyroid-related?
Thanks!
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Avatar universal
Wow, you actually spoke to "the man"!  There's an accomplishment to put on your resume'!

The goal in cancer suppression is to lower TSH (lower TSH, not raise FT4) as much as possible while still keeping you comfortable.  The logic being that higher TSH levels might stimulate any thyroid tissue remaining to regenerate.  We don't want that...so far, so good.  Now his logic starts to fall apart.  Your FT4 can be considerably over the top of the range, and if your FT3 is too low, your TSH will not be suppressed as far as it could be if FT3 and FT4 are more balanced.  T4 is the "storage" form of the thyroid hormones.  Your cells cannot use it.  It basically circulates in your blood until your cells need T3, at which point your liver converts it to T3 (supposedly).  If you're not converting well, your FT3 is going to remain low, and your TSH is going to remain higher than it could be if FT3 were higher.  So, there is no logic to keeping FT4 high unless that also causes your TSH to be optimally suppressed.  And that only happens indirectly if you are conveting well.  Higher FT3 levels will do much more to suppress TSH than over-the-top FT4 levels.

At least he's agreed to test FT3 if that's what you want.  I just don't understand why you'd test TT3, knowing that some of that is unavailable to your body for use, when FT3 tells you so much more.  FT3 is not an expensive test.  Why have to worry about what TT3 ISN'T telling you?  TT3 is considered obsolete...so not just my opinion here.

Now, to the decrease...Going from alternating 150/137 to 137/day is lowering your weekly total by 45.5 mcg (6.5 per day).  Then, he wants you to add in 1/2 of a 5 mcg Cytomel, 2.5 mcg Cytomel, which is roughly equivalent to 10 mcg levo.  So, overall, you will still be increasing a tad, and that's before the second half is added.  Whew...if it were me, I'd have a tough time with that.  Once you add the first half of the Cytomel back in, you'll be taking a higher overall (levo and Cytomel combined) dose than you've already had a difficult time dealing with.  The sign of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome each time...

There is cell damage from low T3.  This is why it takes most of us quite a while to heal (repair the damage) once our labs are stable.  I don't know where this is coming from, either, as it seems to me he's basically saying "being hypo doesn't damage your body".  Am I wrong?  We all know better than that.

I don't think there's much doubt that you need to add some T3 meds, even without seeing FT3.  I'm just trying to lay it all out and think out loud so you can see what you think about all this.

Did you even mention RT3?  I can't blame you if you didn't...there's already enough going on.

Oh, and just for future reference...most people who take T3 meds split the dose, with half in the morning with levo and the other half sometime in the afternoon (you have to experiment with what time works best for you).  This is fairly impractical if you're already splitting a 5 mcg pill, but once you're on the full 5mcg, I'd try that.  It levels out the peaks and valleys that fast-acting T3 meds can create.
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Avatar universal
Okay, my doc called me. Shocking!  Here's what he says, tell me what you think...

First question on why he doesn't test Free T3......he said that he feels that the total T3 count is a perfectly adequate measure but if I would like my free T3 tested he would be perfectly willing to do so on my next labs and review the results with me.  And this is what he wants me to do.....Remember that I take Synthroid 150 and 137 on alternating days.....

He wants me to take 137 of Synthroid for the next two weeks. Then after two weeks take 1/2 of a Cytomel everyday along with the 137 of Synthroid and then call him after 5 days. Depending on how I feel then he will add the other half of that Cytomel if needed after my labs.  His main concern with me, he says, is cancer suppression and quality of life. He feels that my T4 needs to be as high as I can tolerate it because he doesn't want the cancer coming back. I asked him about cellular damage from low T3 and he doesn't think that's an issue (not sure what to think about that) but adding the Cytomel is a good thing. I was the one who brought up lowering the Synthroid dosage and he said "we could try."  I was thinking 125 but he said he would go no lower than 137. He is just all up in the business of cancer suppression, and I understand and appreciate that, but I want to feel well too. So, of we go........
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Avatar universal
I just saw my endo last week, and I love him more every time I see him (not young, not good-looking, and a bit zaftig).  He is the only doctor who has ever called me back personally.  It was when I was overmedicated and hyper.  He was at a clinic in a different city, and he actually took the time to call me.  And, he did it within half an hour of when I called his office.  On the other hand, I recently had surgery, had some complications the evening after, and my surgeon was not to be found...ended up with the "on call" surgeon, who was an idiot, and took 45 minutes to call me back (with bleeding involved!).  I ended up hanging up on her, since the best advice she could give me was "if you feel like you need to go to the ER, then you should".  This is why I pay you the big bucks???  No ****, Sherlock.  However, she actually DID call me back to tell me I couldn't hang up on her!!!  No?  Watch this!

My vent for the day...It is ridiculous.  It's all for their convenience, we're just the vehicle by which they get paid.
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Avatar universal
Thanks for the info. Can you just be my doctor? LOL!  I'm gonna put in my call this morning and request to have the DOCTOR call me back. Wonder how long I'll have to wait for that one? Do doctors even do callbacks?  I get so sick of the translation issue at that office. They make it so you put in a call to speak with the nurse, she calls you back 12 hours later and takes down your problem and sends it to the doctor. Then he reviews the problem and gets back to the nurse 12 hours later. Then 12 hours after that the nurse gets around to calling you back.  Then half the time she didn't even tell him the problem correctly because she's a ding ****. I just want to scream that the whole process could have taken 15 minutes if the freakin doctor had just called me directly. Instead it takes 3 days. Ridiculous. My can of whoop-a$$ is opening today.......
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Avatar universal
One more thought...

As long as you're requesting FT3 and FT4, and assuming you want to get on with this ASAP, you might also think about requesting RT3 (reverse T3).  T4 is converted by the liver into both T3 and RT3.  Sometimes, especially in patients on T4 only meds, the liver starts to convert  more RT3 than T3 (it's the ratio of one to the other that's important).  This is called RT3 dominance.  It's treated differently than simple low FT3.  It might be a bit premature to test this, but it might also save you some time to have all the information available now.
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Avatar universal
I don't know a lot about free thyroxine index since we don't see that one very often.  A quick google said that FTI is T3 Uptake X TT4.  Since both T3 Uptake and TT4 are considered obsolete, I guess I'd have to consider this in the same category since it's based on the same information.  But, no, it is definitely NOT FT4.

It most likely means you are not converting.  If the numbers were frees, rather than totals, I'd take the "most likely" out of that sentence.

I agree on the sprints.  If the T3 is not there for cell repair, you might want to take it just a bit easy on your muscles until you get your levels straightened out.  No sense in causing more damage than is necessary until you know for sure what's going on.  But, I'm so glad to hear that you are feeling better without the Cytomel. I'm sure you can add it back in, but you just have to decrease your levo at the same time.  I think you do need the Cytomel, but you have to balance it with the levo.

It is frustrating, especially when you asked your doctor the direct question about reducing levo at the same time.  
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Avatar universal
Isn't Free Thyroxine Index my free T4 level?  That was tested on the lab and it's pretty much on the high side.  If the total T4 AND the Free T4 are both high what does that mean?  I know that my free T3 wasn't tested but my total T3 is low.  (I'm calling in the morning on that free T3 issue.) But, in the mean time I'm just curious. Does that mean I'm not converting pretty much anything???  
BTW, 2 days off the Cytomel and I feel so much better. But, I'm concerned. I don't want to be pushing my body doing sprint intervals if my muscles don't have what they need. This is all so frustrating.
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Avatar universal
Oooooh, WATCH out...I wouldn't want to be in the path of your rampage at the moment!  LOL

However, I do think some righteous indignation is in order.  Don't forget to get the FT4 along with the FT3.  The problem with the "totals" is that they measure the total T3 or T4 in your body (thus the creative name).  Much of that is chemically bound to protein and useless to your cells.  The "frees" give you the levels actually available to your cells.

I don't know about TV personalities.  I never trust drugs that are advertised on the evening news, and I don't know how I'd feel about a celebrity doctor.  Dr. Oz?  Ugh!  Actually, Dr. Oz (I can't stand him), Oprah and my husband diagnosed me...but that's a story for another day...

It will be interesting to see what he has to say about the frees.  If he balks, I'd run (you're good at this, right?!), not walk.
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Avatar universal
Well that's just dandy!  I really like my doc, he's considered one of the best in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. He's even been on television on Mystery Diagnosis where he actually solved a medical mystery for a young woman with thyroid issues.  I will call on Monday and try and speak with him about these issues.  He's extremely knowledgeable for the most part but maybe he's one of those docs who can study it all day long but doesn't know how to deal with it when the patient actually has issues. I've been a challenge for him from the start as I don't sit lightly when I don't feel well. When he told me my teeth hurting had nothing to do with my RAI I was all up in his kool-aid till I got him to do some research on it.  I finally had my dentist call him.  I will not settle for this. If my free t3 needs to be tested then he's gonna test it. I'm gonna go pull up all my old labs right now and see what the heck he's been testing all along. Time to open up a can of whoop-a$$!
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Avatar universal
Okay, my opinion...not a doctor and all the other usual disclaimers...

Is that T4 free or total?  It looks like total to me.

Your doctor should never have added T3 meds without decreasing your T4 meds.  Your T4 is just about topped out in the range, too high, and adding the Cytomel is not going to do anything to lower that.  I can see his logic in wanting to add some Cytomel to the mix.  Your TT3 is below range.  It's unfortunate that these aren't FT3 and FT4.  But, your low T3 and high T4 definitely indicate a conversion issue.  To tell you the truth, I'm surprised that you felt well with these labs, especially the very low T3.

Your doctor is also ordering quite the collection of obsolete tests.  TT3, TT4 and T3 uptake are all considered outdated since techniquies for measuring FT3 and FT4 have been improved and become less costly.  

You were feeling great with these labs, but I doubt that would have lasted, Cytomel or no Cytomel.  Your T3/T4 balance is all off.

I'd try to find a new doctor.  Between the tests he ordered and the addition of the Cytomel without decrease in the levo, it doesn't seem he has a whole lot of expertise in managing thyroid issues.

Cytomel is out of your system in several hours, but the effects on your metabolism can continue for a few days, and this is your first day after discontinuing it.  I'd want to have FT3 and FT4 tested as soon as possible and reevaluate based on those.  The problem is that if your current doctor isn't ordering them, he probably doesn't know how to use them, either.
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798555 tn?1292787551
OK. Those are 'outdated' lab tests, uptake etc.

As you now know if he's giving you cytomel, free T3 must be tested. Not the same as T3, but you can see that is low. You dont fill up a car tire without checking with a tire gauge, same thing.

Free Thyroxine Index 4.0 (free T4) is up there, dont need more of that, most likely. But need to know how it converts to free T3 in YOU.

Cytomel leaves the body quick by the hour. Daily you will feel better.

If this doc wont change his ways, change docs, and tell him why.
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Avatar universal
TSH 0.567 uIU/mL  Range 0.450-4.500

Thyroxine (T4) 11.7 ug/dL range 4.5=12.0

T3 Uptake 34 % range 24-39

Free Thyroxine Index 4.0  range 1.2-4.9

Trilodothyronine (T3)  79 ng/dL range 83-200

These are my labs right before adding the Cytomel. I didn't take it today and I still feel awful. I feel exactly like I did right after my TT when I was taking too much synthroid.  How long will it take to get this stuff out of my body?  I tried to do a bootcamp class today at the gym and within 5 minutes my heart was pounding so hard I got scared, I ended up leaving. Now my arms feel very lethargic and I'm shaky. I'm so mad that that I'm back to this point when I was feeling so well just 2 weeks ago. Somebody is going down!
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Avatar universal
Yes, it would be nice to see your labs from before the Cytomel...too bad he didn't test FT3.  It was TT3, I assume?  You were feeling well at the time, so you really should be sure to get a copy for yourself.  These labs will reflect your own personal goal...where you feel best.  It's best to ask for a printed copy, since that will include ranges, etc.

T3 is involved in cell repair.  Training is going to cause some cell damage as you ramp up.  

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798555 tn?1292787551
Liz,  what goolarra asked:

1)Do you have labs (with ranges) from before the addition of Cytomel? Y/N ? Please post.

2)You were feeling well before the Cytomel on the same dose of Synthroid?

The more simple you can make your thyroid meds all the better. Normally , docs dont just add cytomel if you previously felt good. Thats why were asking to see the labs, regardless of what your doc told you. This will help us, help you.

If you have hypo symptoms and muscle soreness with proper doses of T4 meds, then the addition of T3 or changing to natural dessicated commonly relieves these symptoms. Most people with hypo symtoms would not be able to run with any athletic performance without more than normal muscle pain for days after.
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Avatar universal
He added the Cytomel after my last labs showed my T3 being a little on the low side. However, I now realize he didn't test the Free T3. So he added the Cytomel and now I feel like poo.  I didn't take it this morning and already I feel 1000% better.  I felt great before he added it so I was kind of confused as to why I needed it.  I'm wondering if my exercise habits have anything to do with it. I started training for a marathon about 2 months ago, really picked up the level of intensity in my running. Not sure if it's related but I would think that if you are exercising more wouldn't your muscles use more hormone?  I don't know. I just know that I haven't taken it today and I feel better. I'll give it the 5 days and call him back but this time I'm gonna ask to speak to the man himself.
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Avatar universal
Why did your doctor add the Cytomel?

Do you have labs (with ranges) from before the addition of Cytomel?

You were feeling well before the Cytomel on the same dose of Synthroid?

It's incredibly annoying when they blow off your questions and just tell you what to do.  However, Cytomel does clear your system very rapidly, and the effects on your metabolism should be gone in a few days or less if it's the Cytomel causing the problems.  It's a pretty quick way to determine if it's the Cytomel doing it.

Sorry about all the questions...
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Avatar universal
I take my Synthroid with the Cytomel at 6am. The yucky starts at noon, lasts about 2 or so hours and then I feel okay. Yes, the yucky is the pounding heart. I don't like that at all. My doctor's office called me today and said my doc said to quit taking the Cytomel immediately and call in 5 days with symptoms. This irritates me because I specifically asked about decreasing the Synthroid or splitting the Cytomel and he did not acknowledge those questions, just said stop the Cytomel and call. Ugh, why? Why do they do this to me? There I was in my happy little world, feeling great and now this. I feel like I'm running on adrenaline, my tongue burns, and now my teeth ache. This was all gone and now it's back. Oh and I think I've lost 5 pounds in 12 days without doing anything. I want this to stop!!!!
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Avatar universal
When do you take your Cytomel, and when do you feel yucky?  Is the yucky the pounding heart and very alert?  You were on the same amount of Synthroid before the addition of the Cytomel?
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Avatar universal
It's been 12 days now.  Still waiting for the call back.
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393685 tn?1425812522
that could be... but also the T3 med is short lived in Cytomel so you could be in a high then low situation everyday and that isn't good either.

How long has this change been Liz?
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Avatar universal
I take 150mcg 4 times a week and 137mcg 3 times a week of Synthroid and 5mg of Cytomel each morning. I did end up calling my doc today and I'm still waiting for a call back. I'm noticing that I feel yucky at around the same time everyday and then once I've pushed through it I feel better again. I'm wondering if I'm feeling better when the Cytomel is wearing off.
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