T4 typically lower on Armour?

Hello all,
I am new to Armour, 7 months now, but been hypo for 20 years, all of those on synthroid. I do belong to another forum for 7 years now, I am finding it is more T4 oriented, and happily stumbled on this great site. I literally prayed for a direction, and feel I was gently pushed to a new doctor that I knew prescribed Armour.

I now am on 90 gr.(2 days only) , I went very slowly, first implementing Armour with a lowered synthroid utill I reached the straight 90 gr. Armour. I know this is my answer, but I do have questions while I wait. I have been lurking and reading for awhile now and have decided to take the plunge.

  My problem has always been my TSH, it went whacko, and my most dibilitating symptom on synthroid was anxiety, as my TSH became surpressed, and the doc kept lowering my T4, the more anxiety I endured. My T4 was barely midrange and sometimes below. Fired that doc, interviewed another and ditched her. Fast forward.........I am 51, it has been exactly one year since last menses, and I am loving that. At this time I have opted to not supplemnet with hormone replacement until my levels are in a better place.

On 60 gr. Armour,  my FT3 is 2.6 (2.3-4.2) no T4 was given, I didn't ask because I knew it was low. Started with an increase to 75 gr. Armour for 12 days and now on 90 gr.

Questions:
1. Does low T4 result in lower sex hormones?
2. With the conversion of T4 to T3, taking Armour, does one need the T4 to also be in the upper range for the other hormones to work, or does the T3 now take over?

I am very happy to be able to tolerate this amount, the first 30 gr. wasn't so pleasant. but here I am.  I also am not one of those that feel immediate symptom relief, am hoping this might be a good sign? I would love to hear of any of your expierences.  Can you also tell me where spell check is, (thwacking forehead)

[mommy2two2008]

Shoenut, welcome to the community!  

I can't really give much clear advise on the T4 / T3 conversion except to say that I am on Armour (3 months now, I think).  The immediate relief is a lifesaver, right!  I know that it how it was for me too, except for my swelling thyroid.  The Armour has not stopped that.  I take 60 mcg and had my doc run my TSH last week just for fun... swelling was back.  My TSH was a 0.46.  Not much change from my last but then my TSH was never the problem, it was my swelling thyroid.  

The TSH is suppressed further with Armour (which is a combo T4 / T3 med) but most of the time, the TSH suppression below standard is o.k. because the patient has no symptoms of hyper if the Armour is dosed right.  That is not always the gold standard for everyone, but that is what I read.  You may want to check out the Armour #2 thread for those on armour and adjusting doses.  

I am not sure about sex hormones on Armour but that would be an interesting topic!  I have recently had so much female trouble with an IUD I had my tubes tied on 10/3 and landed in the hospital for a week on 10/5 with a staph infection.  I think knowing any Armour / sex hormone information would not have helped my particular situation, but would have been interesting reading none the less.

Anyway, feel free to ask away, the forum is great!  You'll meet some great people with wonderful insight to help you through!  Again, Welcome! ~K

[shoenut]

thank you so kindly for the warm welcome.
The Armour #2 thread is very informative, and I can't get enough of the success stories.

I really have to let go of the old TSH treatment, as long as my new doc continues to treat my symptoms and FT4 and FT3, I will be on my way to terrific health.

Sorry to hear about your swollen gland, did the doc also run the FT3 & FT4 along with the TSH. I have read 60 gr. was a small amount, I do know that is highly individual, I actually thought, along with my doctor, that would be the correct dose, but not. Are you staying on this dose for awhile?

Maybe someone will jump in with some advice on the sex hormones.

Armour is the most hope I have had in years........so nice to have that option. Nice visiting with you.

[Cynnieb4]

Yes Stella should be on soon to help you. She is our lifesaver:) She is very familiar with this stuff. Did you get tested for autoimmune diseases as well??? I don't know much about those other hormones as well, I am 29 and having severe problems with mine. But like I said Stella and Laura should be able to hlep you out. Good luck

[stella5349]

Sorry - busy weekend and now getting late for work .

Yes I do have some thoughts on this and welcome to the board.

If you can - (shoenut) - PM me the question and I will try to answer some of your questions at work today.

I was spanked ( verbally) hard at work last week for getting in late often!

Gotta be on time today!!

I'll look for your PM soon and Laura1967 to able to dig on this too. She has been sick with some sort of "bug" - but she may respond here too.

Thanks

[shoenut]

Okay................what is PM the question mean exactly?  Obviously with a new forum comes new terminology as well, I pry need to practice a little more navigating around.

[laura1967]

Hi there....lets start with your most recent lab results. Please post them with the lab ranges. Then we can get a good look at ya! :)  Normal blood values on Armour are a Free T4 in mid range to low mid range, Free T3 should be mid to high normal range, and TSH is usually very suppressed. Usually with Armour you want to treat by symptoms and look at the t4 and t3 levels more so than the tsh. Welcome and I look forward to seeing your test results. :)

[shoenut]

Hi Laura,
Thanks for responding. Let me start off by saying for the last 7 years I have been OBSESSED with my lab numbers, and have been micro-managing my health with labs every 3 months and tweaking, and never getting it right. I have during that time always been on synthroid 100-125. Before I was swithched to Armour, I was on 112 synthroid. I also did play around with cytomel with not much success.

So my last labs given to me on 60 gr. Armour for 6 weeks was FT3 2.6  (2.3-4.2), I did not inquire about TSH or FT4, assuming my FT4 was low, I have decided to put my complete faith in my new doc, who normally only tests FT3, unless of course my symptoms warrant differently.

This is entirely foreign for me to not be pushy and insist on having a hand in the dosing. Having to swallow my pride, I obviously with all my wisdom, have not done such a great job in fixing me. Armour is very new, I am here to learn more with people who have expierenced this.

I have been on the 90 gr. dose for 3 days now, in all the reading I have done, it appears my doc is dosing the proper way. I did start out with 75 gr. for almost 2 weeks, and now up to the 90 gr.

Thanks for the welcome

[stella5349]

PM means Personal Message. But I didn't look over those either yesterday.

It is very important to watch the FT3 when taking Armour - but really all the tests should be looked at to see if there are issues happening.

Your FT3 is on the low side. In many Armour patients the FT3 should be at or above the high range is there is something that could be going on not right. Your doctor is upping your Armour - but the FT3 is still low.

This is where the TSH and FT4 panel could be looked at too. If the Ft4 is high you could be pooling the T3 and keeping it bound.

If you are not getting enough T3 through your system many other hormones can fall short of working properly. Yes sex hormones and adrenals can suffer the shortage.

On your second question about the Ft4 levels being high -

No - usually the Ft4 should be low with the Ft3 being high to systematically balance the thyroid hormones throughout the body. Your TSH should be on the lower end of the scale. There is no specific number - it goes by symptoms and how you feel.

I am suprised your doctor has not looked at your latest Ft3 result and considered other testing. Armour will not work correctly if the adrenals are fatigued and the FT3 will be lower as pooling the hormones is common with this fatigue.

Are you seeing a naturalpath MD - bio identical hormones MD - or Regular doctor?

What kind of symptoms are you experiencing?

Another senerio maybe could be getting some Hashi testing. I think because you stated your TSH went "whacky" all the time this may be something to consider with your doctor. A simple TPO antibody test can rule this out too.

Was this inconsistancy of TSH lab work on TSH done when your were on Synthroid? and with the new doctor not looking at the TSH now when you had a previous problem with it - it too hard to tell if your Armour could be an issue for you too.

Try to see if TSH and FT4 was ran with the FT3 results. That may help in determining if there is an Armour issue or something else.

[shoenut]

Thank you for responding and explaining the importance of all 3 tests to me, I do understand why they are important.
I called to get my other results:
FT4 0.8 (0.8-1.8)
TSH 6.307 (0.350-5.500)
FT3 2.6 (2.3-4.2)
This is on 60 gr. Armour 6 weeks

My doc is a PA who's interests and  trains in hormones.

Symptoms: hot flashing, but has let us some since upping my dose, lightheaded off balance, tired, feet and hands sore, memory impairment, dry skin and extremely dry hair and nails, a little anxiety.

My Tsh went a little crazy on synthroid, but keep in mind, I was playing around with cytomel on and off. In February (before switching to Armour) I had a RT3 ran, and that was near the upper reference range, high, don't have those numbers with me.

Can you comment with the additional information, thank you so very much.  

[stella5349]

Both your FT4 abd FT3 are at the low range and with the TSH of 6.3 it to me - obvious that you needed increases and you are hypo still.

I see he increased on your first post to 90mgs. right?  I assume after these tests were ran.

This is my take on the situation. do the 90mgs as reccommended - but for about 2 weeks.

During this two week trial you may want to call him and state that prior to testing again  you want to try another increase of an additional 15mgs for two weeks prior to testing again.

He may or may not do that - but it could solve the problem.

You have no RT3 or pooling situation going on with the FT's levels you are reading. You are simply just to low on meds to relieve symptoms and lower that TSH along with upping your FT3.

Brain fog usually leaves and energy returns quite quickly for most when the Free T3 is ranging higher on the scale.

I think you are on the right path with the increase - but he seems to be moving at a snails pace on your increases. 6 weeks for an Armour increase is pretty long.  You'll never feel symptom free if you can't move up in small increments as it is intended.

I'm confused ??? If he is a hormone doctor - why isn't he seeing these levels on the Free being an issue? or is he and I am just missing that part?

[shoenut]

I am so thrilled with your response, or in my thinking corresponding with yours.  I so appreciate your knowledge on this. I am following your line of thinking so that gives me some confidence back in what I am doing.

Sorry for the confusion, my PA is just that, but she attends many seminars on natural hormones, not an expert, but has an interest enough to keep up with new info out there.

Shouldn't I be feeling some sympton relief soon with this increase to 90 gr. ?  Can I ask why you think I might need another increase, was so hoping this might be the dose.  When you said to ask for another 15 gr. increase, is this typical before retesting, like doing 2 increases before testing. I can see why this will take way longer with the 2 month waiting period I normally do. What are people's dose average on Armour that are optimized.

I can not tell you how excited I am, it appears my health returning could be in the very near future, it has been the longest 7 years of my life. I am so glad to have found this site.

One more question, timing of dosing> I learned to split the dose for T3 to be steady throughout the day,  I have also read no food for an hour after and 2 before. But contrary to that, I read to take a dose at night for better sleep, and during sleep is when hormones are made. So I am confused, I take mine before breakfast, and right before bed. For me it is a matter of best remembering. What is your take on this?.

Thank you so sincerely in taking the time with my situation, you are one special kind of an angel.  

[stella5349]

Because of the direct T3 in the Armour and increasing recently - you should see some relief in your symptoms within 48 hrs. It may not be total wellness but something should be present. I think I said the foggy thinking should be less and some energy should be felt with each increase.  

As I said Armour is a direct T3 with more T3 than the body usually produces - so it is different and takes the body time to get use to it - usually two weeks if you are still experiencing symptoms and still hypo- then you should increase in the 15mgs until symptoms disappear.  It can be compared as an internal feedback loop in the body if you remain on too low of a dose and your hypo symptoms will be constantly present until you reach the level you need to be at- without going hyper. You may notice during the increase or change in med that a mild headache may appear. This resolves for many within the two weeks.

BUT if you go hyper then you know to return back to the last dosage to see if you level out.  The reason I feel you may need to follow the normal increases is because you have remained hypo through the whole time with the switch over to Armour.

One question - what was your Synthroid/Levo mcg's prior to your switch over to Armour 1 grain? You may - depending on what the dosage of T4 was - could have been started at too low of a dosage to begin with. This is just one thought I had.

There is no magic dose for anyone who are optimized - it isn't a one dosage fits all situation. Some only need 30mgs to feel well - some need 4 or 5 grains. It all depends on the thyroid situation.

I think the timing and splitting is very important with Armour. You almost have to mask what your body did when you were fine prior to problems with this medication. I don't know who told you taking it at night was good because in most people it effects good sleep and insominia/ restlessness is present if you take it at night before bed - but if your body reproduced a high level of hormones at night before - than it may work well for you.

The protacol for taking Armour in split dosages is

(let's take your dosage of 90mgs for the total amount of the day)

Taking your Armour in the early morning at 30mgs first (usually around 6 to 7am) then another 30mgs around11am - then last the final 30mgs around 2 or 3pm.  This spreads out the direct T3 which is a short lived hormone and keeps things moving all day until the evening when your body should get settled to rest.

The actual way you take your Armour is important too.

If you swollow your Armour with water - then you need to follow the same direction as Synthroid - no eating or drinking for one hour after taking it. No supplements for 1/2 hr after either.

If you choose - which I do - taking it sublingually then the medication no longer requires the need to be processed in the stomach and you receive the full dosage of the medication. I had terrible stomach troubles so taking it this way vanished those issues too. It took me a while to get used to it - but Armour has dextrose sugar as a additive in it - so it really is not that unpleasant at all.

Some find doing it this way - they actually can stay on the lower dose due to almost 100% absorption levels going to your system. The med is now processed though the millions of capillaries that line your inner mouth and directly into the blood stream instead of processing with the acid of your stomach that depletes the dosage and could interfer with the Calcitonin in Armour that may protect you from bone depletion.

There are a few ways you can tell if you are on the right dosage of Armour

1 - Basal body temps return to normal 98.6 degrees.
2- Relief of hypo symptoms without hyper activity.
3- Labs that show a higher Free T3  and a bit lower TSH level with a moderate low Free t4 level.

Ok that's it. I hope I answered what I know about your question. If you need anything else just let me know.

[stella5349]

I just read in your back post that you were on .125 to .150 mcg Synthroid and then prior to the switch you were on .112 mcg

That does confirm some of my thought that the 60 may have been a little low to start -  But then I read in your first post a 75mg start?  This confuses me?

BUT-

I would have not wanted the FULL 90  to start anyway because of the direct T3 in Armour.  

It just shows you should have been on that 60 dose only for a couple of weeks until you got use to the Armour and then the increase of 90 could have happened sooner than it has.

[shoenut]

Wow, so much to learn.........thank you for the detailed explanations. Armour is all together different dosing and set of rules than synthroid. So much information in this thread.

You are right, I stayed at 60 gr. Armour too long, because before that I was on 112 syn.,

When I mentioned the 75 gr. Armour, that was the next increase after 60 gr., then I upped it to 90. Sorry, like I said too much information in a short period of time writing this, my mind runs way faster than my fingers.

Maybe my dosing at night isn't working as far as the benefits I should be getting. I actually learned this on another forum about night dosing and how well it works for some. I have always been a good sleeper, and this was the intention of night dosing if you had trouble sleeping, which is why it probably didn't affect me there. I actually sleep too well.

You defiantely answered all my questions, I now know when and how and why to take my Armour.

Where in the world did you gather all your knowledge........I am overwhelmed with gratitude.

[stella5349]

I sat and read all I could - I tried many things on myself to feel better.

I talked to as many people as I could and took all the information I got and learned and put it all together to suit what I needed and then went to a doctor that finally talked to ME.

It's been a journey-- let me tell you

[shoenut]

I can only imagine your journey. I have always been fortuante in being able  to work everyday (although some years I shouldn't of been), so I feel blessed compared to some, thier road has been most difficult.  

Are you feeling good now? The doctor is really the key, cause no matter how much we educate ourselves, convincing the doctor sometimes can be just as frustrating as the disease..

I respect your desire to help others.......someday I hope to be able to return the favor to at least one person. These forums give back what this disease, society and some doctors take away,  our sanity and confidence. Thanks for being there.

[Dnarose]

When on Armour, the goal is to have a midrange free t4 ada high in range free t3. The TSH should not be used in adjusting the dosage of Armour.

[shoenut]

Hi there,
Just wanted to kick up this old discussion and thank you for your advice.

I am splitting my Armour taking it twice a day, only twice because I am taking one 90gr. pill, and cutting that seems to work.

I also moved my night time dose up to 4;00 pm. and plan to move it up earlier when I get my self organized and remember to take it to work. Not taking it at night prevents me mostly from getting at 2;00 to 3;00 for the bathroom run, which I have no idea why my bladder holds longer, or maybe I am getting rid of the fluid earlier.

Even though I have read that Armour is not manufactured sublingual and that you are still swallowing with saliva, I find that in doing this it is giving that little boost of where I am seeing some results. I love not basing when I eat around my meds, frankly.....I am always eating trying to avoid low blood sugar episodes.

My outlook is better.
Less body aches and feet pain.
Little less brainfog

I know I will probably need still yet another increase, but the knowledge and  hope I will  get there is so empowering.  

Thank you so much

[Armour99]

Thyroid hormone naturally peaks at night in your body so the best time to take Armour is at night (around same time every night). You should take it for at least 1/2 hour after eating (preferably longer especially if you ate a lot) so it is fully absorbed. Doctors tell you to take it in the morning because it is easier to remember and you are taking it on an empty stomach and that's how they learned it and they don't question their own teachings anymore even though many things have been now discovered about this subject. I don't understand why you would ever take Syntrhoid and Armour together but oh well. I was on Synthroid for many years. Many years of not feeling well. I had to switch endos to be able to try Armour because my old endo refused to let me try it. Armour has made a big difference. I found out about Armour by researching it myself. When I asked my old endo if there was something else I could try since Synthroid didn't work, she said no. Never mentioned Armour or Nature-Throid. When I learned about Armour and asked her to try it she said no. What kind of doctor would do that? I wasn't sure it would work I just wanted to try it.  My new endo is much younger. So maybe now the new endo school is starting to come out of the dark ages and stop telling all the lies about natural thyroid hormones.