Aa
Tirosint and hair loss?
HELP! My hair is falling out at ever-increasing rates. For six months I've been on Tirosint 50 mcg/day b/c of mild allergic reaction to Synthroid (facial puffiness after taking it and mild hair loss) and Levoxyl (worse swelling.) I'm doing great on Tirosint BUT my hair is falling out and I'm developing really thin hair after a lifetime of thick hair. I'm Hashimotos so Armour won't work for me. If this keeps up, I'm going to be bald. Hair analysis found hair growth stuck in the non-growth cycle but no hormonal abnormaliities. Anyone have an idea of what I can do -- soon -- before I lose all my hair?
Regarding tests tomorrow, first thing I would do is defer morning dose of thyroid med until after blood draw, to avoid false high results, especially with FT3. This is in accordance with ATA/AACE Guidelines for Hypothyroidism (one of the few times I agree with them). Since you are taking thyroid med, a TSH test is a waste of time and money. I would test Free T4, Free T3, Reverse T3, cortisol (diurnal saliva cortisol (free cortisol) panel is best), Vitamin D, B12 and ferritin.If you are tracking antibodies, you will want to test those.
Regarding whether the Free T3 is being absorbed at all I think the answer is yes, based on your Free T3 being at 69% of the range. Since you are taking T3 we can't determine how well you are converting T4 to T3; however, I suspect that you are converting adequately based on your Free T3 being at 69% of the range, while taking only a small dose of T3; however, your FT3 would have been at its peak since you took your dose 3 hours or so before blood draw.
One thought for you is whether you should just continue on the 75 mcg of T4 for a while and give your body some time to adjust to that dose and get a better idea of the effect on symptoms. Remember symptoms tend to lag changes in thyroid hormone levels. To get a good evaluation I think you need to allow some time before re-testing and changing doses again.
For hair loss, I would want to be sure of having optimal levels for FT4, FT3, RT3 and ferritin.
Regarding whether the Free T3 is being absorbed at all I think the answer is yes, based on your Free T3 being at 69% of the range. Since you are taking T3 we can't determine how well you are converting T4 to T3; however, I suspect that you are converting adequately based on your Free T3 being at 69% of the range, while taking only a small dose of T3; however, your FT3 would have been at its peak since you took your dose 3 hours or so before blood draw.
One thought for you is whether you should just continue on the 75 mcg of T4 for a while and give your body some time to adjust to that dose and get a better idea of the effect on symptoms. Remember symptoms tend to lag changes in thyroid hormone levels. To get a good evaluation I think you need to allow some time before re-testing and changing doses again.
For hair loss, I would want to be sure of having optimal levels for FT4, FT3, RT3 and ferritin.
2 Comments
Ok thanks. I am always trying to jump the gun I think - I live in Mexico and I have to drive to the US for doc appointments and to get my meds. So this next week I need to pick up whatever I need for the next three months. I hate to spend $5 a pill for the wrong dosage.
Artis_AI how are you doing on the tiroisint cytomel combo? Did your immune system calmed down? how are your antibodies now?
You stated, "Gimel? Do you have autoimmune illness? If not, we are talking apples and oranges. If so, then you know that my type of hypothyroid illness is not the primary problem. Of course I want relief from thyroid symptoms, but I have to cure the autoimmune response, co-infections and gut biome/mucosal layer if I want to lead a normal life and if I want to put the whole disease process into remission and repair the thyroid damage."
Answer. My hypothyroidism started so long ago that Hashi's was never diagnosed, but I am sure that was the problem based on how it manifested in symptoms (hypo for a time, then hyper for a year or so, and then continuing hypo. You certainly know your experience and history better than I ever could, but I would like to throw out a few thoughts for you to consider, or not.
It is very puzzling why you still felt hypo with your 2/3 test results on Tirosint and T3, but felt hyper with your 6/2017 results when taking only 1/2 grain of NDT, with essentially the same levels for FT4 and FT3. The only things I can think of that would correlate with that would be differences in fillers/binders with the NDT, the porcine source for the NDT, low cortisol or low ferritin (low levels of the latter two are reported to cause reactions to T3). Also, as mentioned I found it puzzling as to why you could have those levels of FT4 and FT3 when taking only half a grain of NDT. Could you possibly have had nodules that were leaking thyroid hormone during that time? I do notice from your only test for cortisol that it is likely lower than needed. The reference range, like many others, is way too broad to the low end. Also that test is for serum total cortisol. If possible it would be far more revealing to get a diurnal saliva cortisol panel of 4 tests done. Those are for Free cortisol, and also show the changes over the day. Vitamin D was good at 65. Doubtful that ferritin is a problem but it needs to be at least 100, so worthwhile to confirm since it is important for good hair growth.
It will be very interesting to see how your new tests come out, since as I understand it you increased the Tirosint to 75, plus 15 mcg of T3. Correct? If so, that would still not be a very heavy dose, considering that you are getting no natural thyroid hormone from your gland, due to suppressed TSH. In addition to FT4 and FT3, I also suggest that you follow the ATA/AACE Guidelines for Hypothyroidism and defer your morning dose of thyroid med, in order to avoid false high results. If you could also get a Reverse T3, in order to calculate your FT3 to RT3 ratio that might be useful. Also, if possible to get a diurnal cortisol test panel that would be useful.
Since your main concern is hair loss, based on long experience here and much research, my opinion is that it is not related to excess thyorid hormone, but instead, most likely due to inadequate levels of thyroid hormone, especially FT4. Also ferritin is very important so it would be good to verify that is optimal.
You also said, "Of course I want relief from thyroid symptoms, but I have to cure the autoimmune response, co-infections and gut biome/mucosal layer if I want to lead a normal life and if I want to put the whole disease process into remission and repair the thyroid damage." I have not seen scientific evidence for putting Hashi's into remission and repairing the thyroid damage. If that is in the links you gave me I will read through it. Even as Dr. K claimed to be able to stop the progression of Hashi's with a gluten free diet, he also admitted in his book that whatever damage had already occurred to the thyroid gland would have to be compensated for with thyroid medication.
Answer. My hypothyroidism started so long ago that Hashi's was never diagnosed, but I am sure that was the problem based on how it manifested in symptoms (hypo for a time, then hyper for a year or so, and then continuing hypo. You certainly know your experience and history better than I ever could, but I would like to throw out a few thoughts for you to consider, or not.
It is very puzzling why you still felt hypo with your 2/3 test results on Tirosint and T3, but felt hyper with your 6/2017 results when taking only 1/2 grain of NDT, with essentially the same levels for FT4 and FT3. The only things I can think of that would correlate with that would be differences in fillers/binders with the NDT, the porcine source for the NDT, low cortisol or low ferritin (low levels of the latter two are reported to cause reactions to T3). Also, as mentioned I found it puzzling as to why you could have those levels of FT4 and FT3 when taking only half a grain of NDT. Could you possibly have had nodules that were leaking thyroid hormone during that time? I do notice from your only test for cortisol that it is likely lower than needed. The reference range, like many others, is way too broad to the low end. Also that test is for serum total cortisol. If possible it would be far more revealing to get a diurnal saliva cortisol panel of 4 tests done. Those are for Free cortisol, and also show the changes over the day. Vitamin D was good at 65. Doubtful that ferritin is a problem but it needs to be at least 100, so worthwhile to confirm since it is important for good hair growth.
It will be very interesting to see how your new tests come out, since as I understand it you increased the Tirosint to 75, plus 15 mcg of T3. Correct? If so, that would still not be a very heavy dose, considering that you are getting no natural thyroid hormone from your gland, due to suppressed TSH. In addition to FT4 and FT3, I also suggest that you follow the ATA/AACE Guidelines for Hypothyroidism and defer your morning dose of thyroid med, in order to avoid false high results. If you could also get a Reverse T3, in order to calculate your FT3 to RT3 ratio that might be useful. Also, if possible to get a diurnal cortisol test panel that would be useful.
Since your main concern is hair loss, based on long experience here and much research, my opinion is that it is not related to excess thyorid hormone, but instead, most likely due to inadequate levels of thyroid hormone, especially FT4. Also ferritin is very important so it would be good to verify that is optimal.
You also said, "Of course I want relief from thyroid symptoms, but I have to cure the autoimmune response, co-infections and gut biome/mucosal layer if I want to lead a normal life and if I want to put the whole disease process into remission and repair the thyroid damage." I have not seen scientific evidence for putting Hashi's into remission and repairing the thyroid damage. If that is in the links you gave me I will read through it. Even as Dr. K claimed to be able to stop the progression of Hashi's with a gluten free diet, he also admitted in his book that whatever damage had already occurred to the thyroid gland would have to be compensated for with thyroid medication.
4 Comments
"Also, as mentioned I found it puzzling as to why you could have those levels of FT4 and FT3 when taking only half a grain of NDT. Could you possibly have had nodules that were leaking thyroid hormone during that time?"
Hi again. As I tried to explain, the NDT caused an immune response, inflammatory response, and sent me into hyper. It was not the level of the medication, but the nature of the medication. That is what I was trying to emphasize. No nodules. Ultrasounds right before those hyper labs and again a few months later.
My "main concern" is not hair loss, but it is why I posted on this forum. I am between appointments and thought the original poster might have an idea.
I appreciate your wanting to help, but as I have said, I have a team of doctors I am extremely happy with and I feel better than I have in YEARS. I understand and respect your doubt in my school of thought, but it really doesn't matter because I am getting well. I went through a series of doctors and endocrinologists who were set in their ideas and did not listen to me. I got sicker and sicker until I was bedridden. NOT ONLY DUE TO THYROID. Thyroid is a secondary symptom of my condition.
When I finally found my doctor, who is aligned with at least some of Dr. K's ideas, I quickly turned a corner. I have many hours of recordings and about fifty pages of notes from our appointments, densely packed information. It is not a miracle recovery. It is not fanciful new-age "alternative" medicine. It is science. It is what is being researched. It just so happens that the new research being done backs the holistic approach. Ultimately we are going to see a paradigm shift in western medical ideology because of the demand created by this new category of disease - affecting tens of millions of Americans - 50 to 80 million estimated.
What is your impression of Dr. Terry Wahl's? Have you seen "Mind Your Mitochondria"? That is healing, repairing, not just remission. In most cases, it takes more than just diet. In my instance, glutathione has been central to my protocol. Also antiviral, immune modulation but not stimulation, repairing my barrier system, rebuilding my gut biome, and a personalized approach to detoxification of the nervous system - I was partially crippled by the hapten cells and neurological symptoms of my disease. I am not the only person benefiting from this type of treatment. I have since been able to guide other autoimmune sufferers - personal friends - onto the same path to recovery and they are seeing the same results.
Maybe Ie should start a foundation to help encourage the naysayers - there is hope for remission and recovery!
While I appreciate your interest, I don't need you to believe me. Three months ago I could hardly stand. I was in bed for at least 20 hours per day. I had two years of that, with a looooong list of other symptoms. But this morning I drove my daughter to Guaymas for school, dropped my car at the mechanic, and went for a hike to the top of Tetakawi - https://goo.gl/images/jQjgw5, and finished a college paper. Not bad considering where I was a few months ago!
My life is all the proof I need. I am back in school studying functional nutrition so that I can help other people like me.
I am still learning about the labs and really I only track my own. I am less focused on their numbers and more focused on how I feel on a day to day basis. This disease has been my teacher and has given me the gift of learning to listen to what my body is trying to tell me.
Hi again. As I tried to explain, the NDT caused an immune response, inflammatory response, and sent me into hyper. It was not the level of the medication, but the nature of the medication. That is what I was trying to emphasize. No nodules. Ultrasounds right before those hyper labs and again a few months later.
My "main concern" is not hair loss, but it is why I posted on this forum. I am between appointments and thought the original poster might have an idea.
I appreciate your wanting to help, but as I have said, I have a team of doctors I am extremely happy with and I feel better than I have in YEARS. I understand and respect your doubt in my school of thought, but it really doesn't matter because I am getting well. I went through a series of doctors and endocrinologists who were set in their ideas and did not listen to me. I got sicker and sicker until I was bedridden. NOT ONLY DUE TO THYROID. Thyroid is a secondary symptom of my condition.
When I finally found my doctor, who is aligned with at least some of Dr. K's ideas, I quickly turned a corner. I have many hours of recordings and about fifty pages of notes from our appointments, densely packed information. It is not a miracle recovery. It is not fanciful new-age "alternative" medicine. It is science. It is what is being researched. It just so happens that the new research being done backs the holistic approach. Ultimately we are going to see a paradigm shift in western medical ideology because of the demand created by this new category of disease - affecting tens of millions of Americans - 50 to 80 million estimated.
What is your impression of Dr. Terry Wahl's? Have you seen "Mind Your Mitochondria"? That is healing, repairing, not just remission. In most cases, it takes more than just diet. In my instance, glutathione has been central to my protocol. Also antiviral, immune modulation but not stimulation, repairing my barrier system, rebuilding my gut biome, and a personalized approach to detoxification of the nervous system - I was partially crippled by the hapten cells and neurological symptoms of my disease. I am not the only person benefiting from this type of treatment. I have since been able to guide other autoimmune sufferers - personal friends - onto the same path to recovery and they are seeing the same results.
Maybe Ie should start a foundation to help encourage the naysayers - there is hope for remission and recovery!
While I appreciate your interest, I don't need you to believe me. Three months ago I could hardly stand. I was in bed for at least 20 hours per day. I had two years of that, with a looooong list of other symptoms. But this morning I drove my daughter to Guaymas for school, dropped my car at the mechanic, and went for a hike to the top of Tetakawi - https://goo.gl/images/jQjgw5, and finished a college paper. Not bad considering where I was a few months ago!
My life is all the proof I need. I am back in school studying functional nutrition so that I can help other people like me.
I am still learning about the labs and really I only track my own. I am less focused on their numbers and more focused on how I feel on a day to day basis. This disease has been my teacher and has given me the gift of learning to listen to what my body is trying to tell me.
And I do test the reverse.
And will draw Ferratin tomorrow as well.
I would like your advice on how to draw my labs - my GP here defers to whatever I ask from him. I won't talk to my autoimmune doc and thyroid doc until next week. So I am playing with the idea of doing the labs different and maybe you can help with this?
I know that something isn't serving me with the med combo - Tirosint 75 plus Perrigo T3. In the past, I could very much feel a T3 boost. With this medicine, I feel absolutely no difference. This week I did not take at all and feel the same as last week. If I test tomorrow with the liothyronine pretty much cleared from my system, then resume normal dosage 3x a day and test next week, will the comparison of those results show whether the liothyronine is being absorbed, or helping at all?
Also, I would just assume not take both. Can you explain to me by my numbers whether I am converting?
My last reverse test was from 17.6 with range of 9.2 - 24.1. That was on T3 only, before I started the Tirosint.
I know that something isn't serving me with the med combo - Tirosint 75 plus Perrigo T3. In the past, I could very much feel a T3 boost. With this medicine, I feel absolutely no difference. This week I did not take at all and feel the same as last week. If I test tomorrow with the liothyronine pretty much cleared from my system, then resume normal dosage 3x a day and test next week, will the comparison of those results show whether the liothyronine is being absorbed, or helping at all?
Also, I would just assume not take both. Can you explain to me by my numbers whether I am converting?
My last reverse test was from 17.6 with range of 9.2 - 24.1. That was on T3 only, before I started the Tirosint.
Lab results and reference ranges vary from lab to lab, so it is important to always compare thyroid related test results to reference ranges shown on the lab report. So could you please post the ranges for those tests.
I just wondered what were the highest levels of Free T4 and Free T3 that you ever got to. Also I assume that your cortisol test was morning serum cortisol (total cortisol). Where did it fall within the reference range?
Are your Vitamin D, B12 and ferritin at optimal levels?
Do you take your thyroid med in the morning before blood draw for thyroid related tests? Sorry if I am asking too many questions, it is just that you seem to be experiencing something that is different from what we normally hear on the Forum, so I'd like to know more, if you want to share.
I just wondered what were the highest levels of Free T4 and Free T3 that you ever got to. Also I assume that your cortisol test was morning serum cortisol (total cortisol). Where did it fall within the reference range?
Are your Vitamin D, B12 and ferritin at optimal levels?
Do you take your thyroid med in the morning before blood draw for thyroid related tests? Sorry if I am asking too many questions, it is just that you seem to be experiencing something that is different from what we normally hear on the Forum, so I'd like to know more, if you want to share.
5 Comments
I have done the draw without the meds and with. Currently I am doing the draw with the meds, at about 3 hours after taking the T3 medication when it is at its peak - showing my highest level of the day.
Ferratin, B12 are in optimum range. Cortisol did not show anything abnormal but I don't trust it and I know I have adrenal fatigue issues.
I make a lab spreadsheet for easy viewing. Wish I could upload or take a photo, easier than typing everything out.
T3 is 69.14, range 80.0 - 200.0
T4 is 7.1, range 5.0 to 12.0
TSH is .342, range 0.4 - 4.0
T4 Free is 1.4, range 0.8 - 2.4
T3 Free is 3.3, range 1.5 - 4.1.
So, on the low side of normal, but too low for me.
The summertime (hyperthyroid) labs were drawn somewhere else with different reference. I was so hyper that I was delusional, doc said lucky I didn't have heart attack. I was in an almost blackout state for months because I was so ill. Due to the NDT. I knew it was not a fit from day 1, but the doc wouldn't listed. At half my normal doseage, still caused hyper thyroid and huge immune response.
I am not asking for input on my current labs. I wanted to know if the other person thought hair loss had to do specifically with the tirosint.
Ferratin, B12 are in optimum range. Cortisol did not show anything abnormal but I don't trust it and I know I have adrenal fatigue issues.
I make a lab spreadsheet for easy viewing. Wish I could upload or take a photo, easier than typing everything out.
T3 is 69.14, range 80.0 - 200.0
T4 is 7.1, range 5.0 to 12.0
TSH is .342, range 0.4 - 4.0
T4 Free is 1.4, range 0.8 - 2.4
T3 Free is 3.3, range 1.5 - 4.1.
So, on the low side of normal, but too low for me.
The summertime (hyperthyroid) labs were drawn somewhere else with different reference. I was so hyper that I was delusional, doc said lucky I didn't have heart attack. I was in an almost blackout state for months because I was so ill. Due to the NDT. I knew it was not a fit from day 1, but the doc wouldn't listed. At half my normal doseage, still caused hyper thyroid and huge immune response.
I am not asking for input on my current labs. I wanted to know if the other person thought hair loss had to do specifically with the tirosint.
Cortisol 9.4, range 6.2 to 19.4.
Vitamin D 65, range 35 - 100
Can't find Ferratin, last check was normal though. Should I check again? I have extensive blood work records. Any other questions? I had all of the testing done for the various types of anemia - they thought maybe I had pernicious anemia. If ferratin were an issue, would all of those labs have shown?
A question you might be able to help me with - let's say the tirosint is a good fit. Could I be having a problem with the absorption of the Perrigo T3 (15 mcg a day divided in three doses)? If so, could putting the extra thyroid hormone into my body cause the hair loss even if it isn't helping the thyroid levels improve?
I didn't have the hairloss problem until the COMBO of the Perrigo and the Tirosint.
I didn't have the hairloss problem until the COMBO of the Perrigo and the Tirosint.
NO, I am not a doctor, just a long time hypothyroid patient with extensive research into the subject. If you want to know more, click on my name and then scroll to bottom and click on my Journal.
I have to admit I have a biased opinion about anything related to Dr. K and his book. I say that because everything was based on anecdotal information, with no referenced scientific studies. Based on some of his comments it seemed to be more of a way for his fellow chiropractors to increase their revenue and for him to sell books and lectures. I am sure we will never agree about that since you are a believer. As I have some time I will go through the many links you provided. In turn I would like to ask how your thyroid med dosage has been determined? Was it based on TSH, or on symptom relief? And what are the highest levels of Free T4 and Free T3 that you have experienced with your meds? Also, have you been tested for cortisol, Vitamin D and ferritin to assure they are optimal and not adversely affecting your response to thyroid hormone?
I have to admit I have a biased opinion about anything related to Dr. K and his book. I say that because everything was based on anecdotal information, with no referenced scientific studies. Based on some of his comments it seemed to be more of a way for his fellow chiropractors to increase their revenue and for him to sell books and lectures. I am sure we will never agree about that since you are a believer. As I have some time I will go through the many links you provided. In turn I would like to ask how your thyroid med dosage has been determined? Was it based on TSH, or on symptom relief? And what are the highest levels of Free T4 and Free T3 that you have experienced with your meds? Also, have you been tested for cortisol, Vitamin D and ferritin to assure they are optimal and not adversely affecting your response to thyroid hormone?
4 Comments
I have no opinion on Dr K. I don't know him or follow him. I have in general found everything I have read on Hashimotos to be helpful - no matter what the standpoint... although some resonates and some does not.
My personal experience of my health deteriorating and becoming bedridden in my mid-30s, then finding my current doctor and having a complete turn around certainly influences my belief that NDT is not for everyone.
My thyroid dosage is based on full thyroid panels, including frees and reverse, plus symptoms, plus my own self-knowledge through trial and error. I have a team of 5 doctors and I feel each of them contribute something valuable to the overall picture.
Of course I have been tested for cortisol, Vitamin D and ferratin. I did exhaustive lab work before taking the leap to work with my current doc. She is also working to repair the thyroid tissue so ultimately I won't need the meds at all.
What do you mean by highest levels of Free T4 and T3? Ever? My labs have been all over the place... Or do you mean now? I am still adjusting. I am running labs Friday without the T3 (not taking for a week) and then next week again with the T3. I don't like the combo of Tirosint and Perrigo. I don't feel the Perrigo is benefiting me - maybe I am not absorbing. Which is why I want to test with and without. Right now I am taking 75 mcg Tirosint, plus 5 mcg T3, 3 x day.
My last labs were drawn on 02/13 and I was taking 50 mcg Tirosint and the same T3 med 3x day.
They showed T4 at 7.1, 1.4 Free, T3 69.14, Free
3.3, TSH at .342. This is a tad hypo for me to feel good, so I upped to 75 mcg Tirosint.
Last June my T3 was 131 and 3.5, my T4 Total and Free were 6.6 and 1.08, TSH <.006. This was on a half grain of Naturethroid. Crazy hyper.
My personal experience of my health deteriorating and becoming bedridden in my mid-30s, then finding my current doctor and having a complete turn around certainly influences my belief that NDT is not for everyone.
My thyroid dosage is based on full thyroid panels, including frees and reverse, plus symptoms, plus my own self-knowledge through trial and error. I have a team of 5 doctors and I feel each of them contribute something valuable to the overall picture.
Of course I have been tested for cortisol, Vitamin D and ferratin. I did exhaustive lab work before taking the leap to work with my current doc. She is also working to repair the thyroid tissue so ultimately I won't need the meds at all.
What do you mean by highest levels of Free T4 and T3? Ever? My labs have been all over the place... Or do you mean now? I am still adjusting. I am running labs Friday without the T3 (not taking for a week) and then next week again with the T3. I don't like the combo of Tirosint and Perrigo. I don't feel the Perrigo is benefiting me - maybe I am not absorbing. Which is why I want to test with and without. Right now I am taking 75 mcg Tirosint, plus 5 mcg T3, 3 x day.
My last labs were drawn on 02/13 and I was taking 50 mcg Tirosint and the same T3 med 3x day.
They showed T4 at 7.1, 1.4 Free, T3 69.14, Free
3.3, TSH at .342. This is a tad hypo for me to feel good, so I upped to 75 mcg Tirosint.
Last June my T3 was 131 and 3.5, my T4 Total and Free were 6.6 and 1.08, TSH <.006. This was on a half grain of Naturethroid. Crazy hyper.
When I had the hyper stuff going, the TSH was the lowest my endochrinologist had ever seen anyone's. It took 3 months for it to come up enough to ever register from <.006 to <.005. My T4 Free was 2.28, range .82 - 1.77. My T3 was 185, range 71 - 180. She did not check the Free T3 that day, she never would listen to me. She was the fourth of five docs I went through before putting together the current team which is working great.
I also have had major battle with reactivated EBV. It is now under control after two years of hell. Have you read about the implication of EBV in ALL autoimmune?
Gimel? Do you have autoimmune illness? If not, we are talking apples and oranges. If so, then you know that my type of hypothyroid illness is not the primary problem. Of course I want relief from thyroid symptoms, but I have to cure the autoimmune response, co-infections and gut biome/mucosal layer if I want to lead a normal life and if I want to put the whole disease process into remission and repair the thyroid damage.
I don't have nodules to date.
I don't have nodules to date.
* I meant to say I was diagnosed in 2009, and got serious about diet and natural intervention/gut repair in 2012.
Here is what Dr. Datis Kharrazian has to say about it (He wrote the book, "Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms When My Lab Tests Are Normal" - My doc partners and teaches with him):
"Bio-identical versus synthetic hormones
I personally prefer my patients use a bio-identical thyroid hormone such as Armour. Lab tests can measure bio-identical hormones in your system, whereas they cannot measure synthetic hormones (only TSH is an effective marker when synthetic hormones are used). However, some people clearly do better with synthetic hormones.
Why is that? This is common in people with an autoimmune thyroid disease, especially Graves’, who have developed an autoimmune attack against T3 and T4. In other words, their immune system is attacking their thyroid hormones. Because bio-identical hormones contain both T3 and T4, this stimulates the autoimmune attack and makes the person feel worse. In these cases, a synthetic T4 may be a better option. Currently there are no lab tests to test for antibodies against T3 and T4, however one is in development."
My autoimmune nutritionist also has great info on a lot of topics:
https://aiplifestyle.com/creating-an-autoimmune-paleo-health-plan/
https://aiplifestyle.com/when-aip-becomes-a-crutch-not-a-cure/
Here are some other interesting links on antibodies:
https://drknews.com/unraveling-thyroid-antibodies/
http://www.naturalendocrinesolutions.com/archives/why-are-my-thyroid-antibodies-still-high/
And T dominance:
https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/supplements-foods-exercise-right-type-th1-vs-th2-dominance/
http://www.choicesunlimited.ca/when-t1-t2-are-out-of-balance/
Here is what Dr. Datis Kharrazian has to say about it (He wrote the book, "Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms When My Lab Tests Are Normal" - My doc partners and teaches with him):
"Bio-identical versus synthetic hormones
I personally prefer my patients use a bio-identical thyroid hormone such as Armour. Lab tests can measure bio-identical hormones in your system, whereas they cannot measure synthetic hormones (only TSH is an effective marker when synthetic hormones are used). However, some people clearly do better with synthetic hormones.
Why is that? This is common in people with an autoimmune thyroid disease, especially Graves’, who have developed an autoimmune attack against T3 and T4. In other words, their immune system is attacking their thyroid hormones. Because bio-identical hormones contain both T3 and T4, this stimulates the autoimmune attack and makes the person feel worse. In these cases, a synthetic T4 may be a better option. Currently there are no lab tests to test for antibodies against T3 and T4, however one is in development."
My autoimmune nutritionist also has great info on a lot of topics:
https://aiplifestyle.com/creating-an-autoimmune-paleo-health-plan/
https://aiplifestyle.com/when-aip-becomes-a-crutch-not-a-cure/
Here are some other interesting links on antibodies:
https://drknews.com/unraveling-thyroid-antibodies/
http://www.naturalendocrinesolutions.com/archives/why-are-my-thyroid-antibodies-still-high/
And T dominance:
https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/supplements-foods-exercise-right-type-th1-vs-th2-dominance/
http://www.choicesunlimited.ca/when-t1-t2-are-out-of-balance/
I know of no scientific data that agrees that your "natural" thyorid replacement would cause your immune system to go into an overdrive attack. Studies have shown that taking a daily dose of thyroid med adequate to relieve hypothyroid symptoms actually causes the level of antibodies to go down. What was your daily dose and what were the levels of your biologically active thyroid hormones, Free T4 and Free T3, when this was going on?
You might have felt better with Tirosint because it is absorbed better and typically gives higher FT4 and FT3 than the usual T4 med; however, it all depends on getting the dose high enough to raise your FT4 to mid-range, and your FT3 into the upper third of its range, and then adjusted from there as needed to relieve symptoms. So what are your FT4 and FT3 levels, and reference ranges shown on the lab report, now that you are on Tirosint?
In addition, for thyroid hormone to work properly, you need for your cortisol, Vitamin D and ferritin levels to be optimized. Vitamin D should be at lest 50 ng/mL and ferritin should be at least 100. Hair loss can be associated with both hypothyroidism and low ferritin levels.
You might have felt better with Tirosint because it is absorbed better and typically gives higher FT4 and FT3 than the usual T4 med; however, it all depends on getting the dose high enough to raise your FT4 to mid-range, and your FT3 into the upper third of its range, and then adjusted from there as needed to relieve symptoms. So what are your FT4 and FT3 levels, and reference ranges shown on the lab report, now that you are on Tirosint?
In addition, for thyroid hormone to work properly, you need for your cortisol, Vitamin D and ferritin levels to be optimized. Vitamin D should be at lest 50 ng/mL and ferritin should be at least 100. Hair loss can be associated with both hypothyroidism and low ferritin levels.
1 Comments
Upvote are you a doctor or a fellow AI patient? I have been on this path with Hashimotos for ten years now, and it has been an ongoing learning experience. I was diagnosed with Hashimotos and became gluten free with a customized autoimmune diet in 2012. I didn't have to take thyroid replacement until fall 2015, at which time the NDT in part caused extreme immune dysregulation.
What I do know is that there is not a right solution that fits each person. My Dad and brother do great on Armour. I knew from the first few days that Naturethroid was not a good fit (extreme sore throat and flu-like symptoms), but I wanted to be "natural", and my doc at the time insisted it was the cleanest (most offices are now using Westhroid I believe).
When I started Naturethroid, my TPO and TgAb were 187 and <0.9. Over the next several months my antibodies climbed to 1881 and 829.3. I have a spreadsheet of two years worth of labs drawn every month to six week, so the correlation is pretty easy to see. The medication also spurred my thyroid into hyper status, and sent my immune system into a tailspin. All of my symptoms worsened, I had a total breakdown of my barrier system, became allergic to multiple foods and chemicals, my doc said "all bets were off" for my T helper dominance - reactive to EVERYTHING. My mitochondria were damaged, I had defective Krebs cycle and ATP production, chemicals bound to my nerve myelins with extreme neurological symptoms and I was bed ridden.
I am not saying that it was all due to the NDT, but I do KNOW that it caused an autoimmune response, and then several other factors contributed to a total break down. As soon as I got off the Naturethroid, I felt a world of difference. I slowly came down from 1.25 grain to .25 grain but felt TERRIBLE until COMPLETELY off.
I know this is true for others as well (I see it on forums such as https://healthunlocked.com/thyroiduk/posts/132340773/ndt-and-hashimotos ), I also cannot take dessicated adrenal. And no corn or gluten fillers. So my prescriptions are compounded, except for the Tirosint I am currently using.
I am extremely lucky that during my decline I continued to research my illness and what is being learned about Autoimmune, the EBV link, etc. I found information online that I knew was written by people at the forefront of current research, and networked until I made contact with an exceptional autoimmune specialist. Every month I travel 1000 miles to meet with her, and she travels across the country to make office visits in the SW. She got me off of the NDT, onto Tirosint and Perrigo brand T3, daily glutathione injections, a special hypoallergenic protocol of supplements and a few other meds, including Valacyclovir for the EBV and LDN.
My doc used Cyrex arrays 5, 11 and 12 to identify my other contributing root causes. With her help I am regaining my life. I am again able to hike mountains, dance with a performance group, laugh, enjoy the sunshine and my kids.
It was a harrowing experience and anyone who tells you that NDT is a fit for everyone with Hashimotos DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. No offense, but there are so many people who think they have all the answers, when in fact each case is pretty darn unique. It is irresponsible to suggest that all Hashimotos patients do well with dessicated thyroid.
I know I have a recording of my doctor explaining why I reacted to the NDT. She teaches doctors all over the country, and it is exciting to hear her describe the science. I will try to locate that recording and give you a better explanation.
-Artis
"Any patient with autoimmune thyroiditis or a known diagnosis of hashimoto's thyroiditis should be careful when using Naturethroid or any other form of natural desiccated thyroid.
Why?
Because NDT is porcine based, meaning it comes from a different animal.
Even though the hormones themselves are bio identical (meaning they are the same hormone your body would have produced naturally), components of the animal still remain in the formulation.
Like any piece of foreign tissue it is possible for your body to create an immune response to it.
For this reason (and many others) some patients may actually feel worse when switching to naturethroid and feel like their symptoms come back even though their TSH may be low at the time.
This leads patients and providers to believe that the medication doesn't provide stable thyroid levels and this isn't necessarily true.
It doesn't mean you shouldn't take naturethroid if you have Hashimoto's or autoimmune thyroiditis, but you should take this into consideration when switching medication and if you feel worse during the switch.
If this does occur to you, you can check your thyroid antibody levels to determine if they raised in correlation with starting naturethroid."
From https://www.restartmed.com/naturethroid/
What I do know is that there is not a right solution that fits each person. My Dad and brother do great on Armour. I knew from the first few days that Naturethroid was not a good fit (extreme sore throat and flu-like symptoms), but I wanted to be "natural", and my doc at the time insisted it was the cleanest (most offices are now using Westhroid I believe).
When I started Naturethroid, my TPO and TgAb were 187 and <0.9. Over the next several months my antibodies climbed to 1881 and 829.3. I have a spreadsheet of two years worth of labs drawn every month to six week, so the correlation is pretty easy to see. The medication also spurred my thyroid into hyper status, and sent my immune system into a tailspin. All of my symptoms worsened, I had a total breakdown of my barrier system, became allergic to multiple foods and chemicals, my doc said "all bets were off" for my T helper dominance - reactive to EVERYTHING. My mitochondria were damaged, I had defective Krebs cycle and ATP production, chemicals bound to my nerve myelins with extreme neurological symptoms and I was bed ridden.
I am not saying that it was all due to the NDT, but I do KNOW that it caused an autoimmune response, and then several other factors contributed to a total break down. As soon as I got off the Naturethroid, I felt a world of difference. I slowly came down from 1.25 grain to .25 grain but felt TERRIBLE until COMPLETELY off.
I know this is true for others as well (I see it on forums such as https://healthunlocked.com/thyroiduk/posts/132340773/ndt-and-hashimotos ), I also cannot take dessicated adrenal. And no corn or gluten fillers. So my prescriptions are compounded, except for the Tirosint I am currently using.
I am extremely lucky that during my decline I continued to research my illness and what is being learned about Autoimmune, the EBV link, etc. I found information online that I knew was written by people at the forefront of current research, and networked until I made contact with an exceptional autoimmune specialist. Every month I travel 1000 miles to meet with her, and she travels across the country to make office visits in the SW. She got me off of the NDT, onto Tirosint and Perrigo brand T3, daily glutathione injections, a special hypoallergenic protocol of supplements and a few other meds, including Valacyclovir for the EBV and LDN.
My doc used Cyrex arrays 5, 11 and 12 to identify my other contributing root causes. With her help I am regaining my life. I am again able to hike mountains, dance with a performance group, laugh, enjoy the sunshine and my kids.
It was a harrowing experience and anyone who tells you that NDT is a fit for everyone with Hashimotos DOESN'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. No offense, but there are so many people who think they have all the answers, when in fact each case is pretty darn unique. It is irresponsible to suggest that all Hashimotos patients do well with dessicated thyroid.
I know I have a recording of my doctor explaining why I reacted to the NDT. She teaches doctors all over the country, and it is exciting to hear her describe the science. I will try to locate that recording and give you a better explanation.
-Artis
"Any patient with autoimmune thyroiditis or a known diagnosis of hashimoto's thyroiditis should be careful when using Naturethroid or any other form of natural desiccated thyroid.
Why?
Because NDT is porcine based, meaning it comes from a different animal.
Even though the hormones themselves are bio identical (meaning they are the same hormone your body would have produced naturally), components of the animal still remain in the formulation.
Like any piece of foreign tissue it is possible for your body to create an immune response to it.
For this reason (and many others) some patients may actually feel worse when switching to naturethroid and feel like their symptoms come back even though their TSH may be low at the time.
This leads patients and providers to believe that the medication doesn't provide stable thyroid levels and this isn't necessarily true.
It doesn't mean you shouldn't take naturethroid if you have Hashimoto's or autoimmune thyroiditis, but you should take this into consideration when switching medication and if you feel worse during the switch.
If this does occur to you, you can check your thyroid antibody levels to determine if they raised in correlation with starting naturethroid."
From https://www.restartmed.com/naturethroid/
I have Hashi and after my immune system completely bottoming out, I realized it was in part due to my taking Naturethroid. The "natural" thyroid replacement caused my immune system to go into an overdrive attack, quadrupled my antibodies into the thousands, and sent me into extreme hyperthyroidism. Several specialists later and I am now on Tirosint, stabilizing and able to function in a normal life again. Except the Tirosint (the only T4 medication I can tolerate) is causing major hair loss. So I am another person like the first - I can't tolerate Armour and Tirosint is working well except increased anxiety and hair loss.
Boo682, are you still on this forum and did you resolve your issue?
Boo682, are you still on this forum and did you resolve your issue?
COMMUNITY LEADER
Since Tirosint is a T4 only, med, it wouldn't make a difference that you took your med prior to the blood test; because of the 1/2 life of T4, the hormones present would have been from medication taken a couple weeks prior. It only matters when T3 med, which is fast acting, is involved.
I'm far from being an expert on the Reverse T3 issue, but it's not the actual result that counts; it's ratio of FT3 to RT3.
"several sibs, nieces & I have trouble converting Reverse T3" What do you mean by this? RT3 is not converted to anything; it's not usable.
FT4 converts either to FT3 or RT3. If FT3 is too high, FT4 should convert to RT3, which can't be used by the cells.
As has been stated by others, there's no reason you can't take Armour with Hashi's; many people do and do just fine. I agree that your doctor probably doesn't want to prescribe it, so he came up with a bad excuse.
I'm far from being an expert on the Reverse T3 issue, but it's not the actual result that counts; it's ratio of FT3 to RT3.
"several sibs, nieces & I have trouble converting Reverse T3" What do you mean by this? RT3 is not converted to anything; it's not usable.
FT4 converts either to FT3 or RT3. If FT3 is too high, FT4 should convert to RT3, which can't be used by the cells.
As has been stated by others, there's no reason you can't take Armour with Hashi's; many people do and do just fine. I agree that your doctor probably doesn't want to prescribe it, so he came up with a bad excuse.
First...I have Hashi's and I take Armour.
I understand your alarm. First it seems you may be too high and might lower your dose. Do you have hyper symptoms? The thing I have learned is that you lose hair if you're hyper AND if you're hypo. Metabolism exists in every cell in your body. Thyroid hormones speed up or decrease metabolism meaning it affects the life cycle of cells and processes which, if you are taking too much will cause systems to cycle quickly and inefficiently It happens with fingernails, bone formation, hair. When I took too much my hair fell out. When I take too little my hair falls out. It's actually one of the first things that happens in an alarming way that tells me things aren't right. In the case of hair too much thyroid causes a weak formation of hair follicles and the hair cycles fast and falls out. Too little and it just won't try. At least that's how I understand it. It might be worth adjusting down.
The other thing is I have never heard any issues with dessicated thyroid. I have Hashi's and things changed for the better for me with this rather than Synthroid alone,, Have to say i have not tried synthetic T3/T4 so I can't speak to that.
A significant study came out recently showing little negative effect on subaccute hyperthyroid levels and that number was something like TSH,4 -,04 if my memoery serves me correctly.They said many people do better so Drs should let patients go into subaccute hyperthyroid state. Below that range there were issues with osteoporosis and heart issues.
It may actually have been helpful for you to have taken your meds before your labwork. Now you see your TSH is much lower and your FT3 is high. I don't know about the reverse but it sounds like you don't need T3. But I don't understand the that part. Personally I don't want to go over range in FT3 in particular. I already know how that feels because I'm sure it was over on 90 mg Armour. It may be that if you can get your FT3 down it might help however you can do that. That's what I would try anyway. Remember you have to take other symptoms into consideration as well but keeping your hair is a big deal. I'm not a Dr...just my opinion. BTW there are other brands not just Armour.
I understand your alarm. First it seems you may be too high and might lower your dose. Do you have hyper symptoms? The thing I have learned is that you lose hair if you're hyper AND if you're hypo. Metabolism exists in every cell in your body. Thyroid hormones speed up or decrease metabolism meaning it affects the life cycle of cells and processes which, if you are taking too much will cause systems to cycle quickly and inefficiently It happens with fingernails, bone formation, hair. When I took too much my hair fell out. When I take too little my hair falls out. It's actually one of the first things that happens in an alarming way that tells me things aren't right. In the case of hair too much thyroid causes a weak formation of hair follicles and the hair cycles fast and falls out. Too little and it just won't try. At least that's how I understand it. It might be worth adjusting down.
The other thing is I have never heard any issues with dessicated thyroid. I have Hashi's and things changed for the better for me with this rather than Synthroid alone,, Have to say i have not tried synthetic T3/T4 so I can't speak to that.
A significant study came out recently showing little negative effect on subaccute hyperthyroid levels and that number was something like TSH,4 -,04 if my memoery serves me correctly.They said many people do better so Drs should let patients go into subaccute hyperthyroid state. Below that range there were issues with osteoporosis and heart issues.
It may actually have been helpful for you to have taken your meds before your labwork. Now you see your TSH is much lower and your FT3 is high. I don't know about the reverse but it sounds like you don't need T3. But I don't understand the that part. Personally I don't want to go over range in FT3 in particular. I already know how that feels because I'm sure it was over on 90 mg Armour. It may be that if you can get your FT3 down it might help however you can do that. That's what I would try anyway. Remember you have to take other symptoms into consideration as well but keeping your hair is a big deal. I'm not a Dr...just my opinion. BTW there are other brands not just Armour.
The Armour and Hashis incompatibility thing makes absolutely no sense what so ever! At least to me.
Think about it this way. Your body is really only using T4 and T3. More specifically Free T4 and Free T3 hormones.
Synthroid, levo etc are T4 only medications.
Armour supplies T4 and T3. Exactly what your body uses.
Hashi's has nothing to do with the T4 and T3 other than the thyroid's inability to produce enough thyroid for your body to use due to the autoimmune response that is attacking the thryroid gland.
Ultimately your body just wants a certain balance of Free T4 and really Free T3 to use. This balance is different in everyone. So the goal is to replace the hormones to a level that is optimized for your body.
What combination or what type of medication is used to get there really makes no difference.
Some people ARE allergic or whatever to certain fillers and dyes or buffers in different medications. So they will have a preference as to what works for them and which ones they have a reaction to.
Armour the only issue may be since it is pig thyroid, would be that the ratio of T4 to T3 is relatively fixed. So the fine tuned tweaking is a bit more difficult or could even require for certain individuals the need to supplement with synthetic T4 or T3 in order to get just the right combination.
The bottom line is I can not think of why Armour would not work or somehow be incompatible with Hahsi's.
I can understand how it could be sensitive to certain people or individuals but that is another issue at work and not simply because of the Hashi's itself.
I'm not a Dr so I could be completely wrong. All I know is many people here who suffer from Hashi's which is the most common cause of Hypo do just fine and some can only handle Armour or other natural dissected thyroid medication.
I think what is really at hand, is that many Drs do not like Armour and think that it is outdated and inconsistent dosages etc. Yet it has been used for over 100 years successfully. And I've read from one source but don't know if it is true that there have been more recalls by the synthetic manufacturers for inconsistent batches of synthetic T4 than ever has been for Armour. Understand that Armour while it is called " natural" is still a man made manufactured product. They introduce fillers in the medication as well. And it is believed that the manufactures do testing and adjust the filler content so that consistency is higher even with so called variation of the thousands of different pig thyroids they use. It is in the manufacturers best interest to produce as consistent as a product as they can.
If I had to guess, I'd bet that the Dr just doesn't understand Armour or doesn't want to use it so it is a convenient excuse that he says you can't use it on Hashi's patients. Just my opinion.
Think about it this way. Your body is really only using T4 and T3. More specifically Free T4 and Free T3 hormones.
Synthroid, levo etc are T4 only medications.
Armour supplies T4 and T3. Exactly what your body uses.
Hashi's has nothing to do with the T4 and T3 other than the thyroid's inability to produce enough thyroid for your body to use due to the autoimmune response that is attacking the thryroid gland.
Ultimately your body just wants a certain balance of Free T4 and really Free T3 to use. This balance is different in everyone. So the goal is to replace the hormones to a level that is optimized for your body.
What combination or what type of medication is used to get there really makes no difference.
Some people ARE allergic or whatever to certain fillers and dyes or buffers in different medications. So they will have a preference as to what works for them and which ones they have a reaction to.
Armour the only issue may be since it is pig thyroid, would be that the ratio of T4 to T3 is relatively fixed. So the fine tuned tweaking is a bit more difficult or could even require for certain individuals the need to supplement with synthetic T4 or T3 in order to get just the right combination.
The bottom line is I can not think of why Armour would not work or somehow be incompatible with Hahsi's.
I can understand how it could be sensitive to certain people or individuals but that is another issue at work and not simply because of the Hashi's itself.
I'm not a Dr so I could be completely wrong. All I know is many people here who suffer from Hashi's which is the most common cause of Hypo do just fine and some can only handle Armour or other natural dissected thyroid medication.
I think what is really at hand, is that many Drs do not like Armour and think that it is outdated and inconsistent dosages etc. Yet it has been used for over 100 years successfully. And I've read from one source but don't know if it is true that there have been more recalls by the synthetic manufacturers for inconsistent batches of synthetic T4 than ever has been for Armour. Understand that Armour while it is called " natural" is still a man made manufactured product. They introduce fillers in the medication as well. And it is believed that the manufactures do testing and adjust the filler content so that consistency is higher even with so called variation of the thousands of different pig thyroids they use. It is in the manufacturers best interest to produce as consistent as a product as they can.
If I had to guess, I'd bet that the Dr just doesn't understand Armour or doesn't want to use it so it is a convenient excuse that he says you can't use it on Hashi's patients. Just my opinion.
Thanks so much for your response. The bloodwork was done several hours after I took morning thyroid meds (I usually get bldwrk done first thing in the morning before taking thyroid meds):
T4 Free. Direct S is 0.72 (low?);
TSH is 0.009 -- usually .15 to .20 by afternoon (do best on really low TSH);
Reverse T3. 9.3 (several sibs, nieces & I have trouble converting Reverse T3;
Triiodothyronine, Free, Serum, 9.5 (remember, I'd just taken my meds, but it's still much more than the 2.0-4.4 normal)
Feel great with these numbers -- except for that hair thingy.
I was told by my endo that recent research shows that many people with Hashi don't do well on Armour. One sister who is hypo/Hashi tried it and slogged through serious fatigue until she went back to Synthroid.
What's your assessment of the above? The 1300 mg Evening Primrose oil daily (Mary Shomon's about.com recommendation) is helping hair a bit -- not regrown, still thin, but seems a little thicker and not falling out so much. Many thanks for your interest. Boo
T4 Free. Direct S is 0.72 (low?);
TSH is 0.009 -- usually .15 to .20 by afternoon (do best on really low TSH);
Reverse T3. 9.3 (several sibs, nieces & I have trouble converting Reverse T3;
Triiodothyronine, Free, Serum, 9.5 (remember, I'd just taken my meds, but it's still much more than the 2.0-4.4 normal)
Feel great with these numbers -- except for that hair thingy.
I was told by my endo that recent research shows that many people with Hashi don't do well on Armour. One sister who is hypo/Hashi tried it and slogged through serious fatigue until she went back to Synthroid.
What's your assessment of the above? The 1300 mg Evening Primrose oil daily (Mary Shomon's about.com recommendation) is helping hair a bit -- not regrown, still thin, but seems a little thicker and not falling out so much. Many thanks for your interest. Boo
COMMUNITY LEADER
Hair loss is a symptom of hypothyroidism, so it's likely that your a bit under medicated.
Please post whatever thyroid hormone lab results you have, so we can better assess your situation. Be sure to include the reference ranges listed on the lab report, since ranges vary lab to lab and must come from your own report.
"I'm Hashimotos so Armour won't work for me". Why do you say this? Many people who have Hashimoto's are on Armour and do very well.
Please post whatever thyroid hormone lab results you have, so we can better assess your situation. Be sure to include the reference ranges listed on the lab report, since ranges vary lab to lab and must come from your own report.
"I'm Hashimotos so Armour won't work for me". Why do you say this? Many people who have Hashimoto's are on Armour and do very well.
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