"Why Do I Still Have Thyroid Symptoms? When My Lab Tests are Normal" by Datis Kharrazian

An open discussion of the book...



Let me preface this by saying that this book has had a lot of recent exposure on this forum.  Many of us have read it due to the recommendation of another member.  Some of us found it severely lacking in fact and scientific backup.  I found it to be little more than an infomercial promoting a shaky theory and a network of “trained practitioners” around the country.  It also pushes a line of products available “only through the author”.  The book claims to explain the cause of Hashi’s and suggests that the protocol can “cure” (eliminate thyroid antibodies) Hashi’s.

So, I’d like to open up a discussion.  Anyone is welcome to ask questions that the book generated, and anyone is welcome to answer those questions…even if you haven’t read the book, if you have any insight that will help explain some of the inconsistencies, I’d love to hear from you.

I have so many questions that it’s difficult to know where to start, so let me start by examining K’s theory on the cause of Hashi’s:

K’s theory is that gluten is the cause of Hashi’s.  Anti-gluten (gliadin) antibodies spill out of a “leaky gut” into the bloodstream.  Once out of the gut, these antibodies attack thyroid “tissue” because it has a “similar” molecular structure to gluten.  According to K, this is how Hashi’s arises.

My first question:  Since gluten antibodies are only present in full-blown autoimmune celiac disease, how does this apply to those of us without celiac?  What causes Hashi’s in those of us without anti-gluten antibodies?

I suspect we will have a lot more questions than answers on this thread.  I hope those question will help members decide whether it’s worth buying this book and will help them read it in an appropriately critical manner if they do buy it.      

[Barb135]

If it's the anti-gluten antibodies that attack the thyroid, where do the thyroid peroxidase antibodies and thyroglobulin antibodies come in? and why are they the ones used to diagnose Hashimoto's, rather than the anti-gluten antibodies?  According to everything I've ever read/researched, the antibodies are very particular about what they attack i.e. thyroid antibodies only attack the thyroid, RA antibodies attack the joints/muscles, etc.  

According to the theory that it's the gluten antibodies that attack the thyroid, I, then, should not have Hashimoto's since I don't have those antibodies.  

The only autoimmune that I know of, in which antibodies attack all organs is lupus.  

[dpleiman]

I'm doing some extensive research on any connection between hashimotos and gluten "specifically"

I"m still researching but wanted to chime in on Barbs question of "not having anti-gluten antibodies" because i actually JUST read this, I've found this "statement" so far.. not saying it is a scientific fact or that i agree with it, and i haven't found any information YET to discount or otherwise "prove" this but, this is the reason they give for your specific question of not having anti-gluten antibodies but still have gluten intolerance..

**** In Th1-dominant conditions, the Th2 system is suppressed. The Th2 system is the part of the immune system responsible for producing antibodies. When the Th2 system is severely depressed, the body’s ability to produce antibodies is impaired. The levels may be so low that they won’t show up on a test. So, even if you have gluten intolerance, your test for gluten antibodies may be falsely negative if you have Th1-dominant Hashimoto’s*****

[Barb135]

But I have neither gluten antibodies, nor gluten intolerance.  Besides, that wasn't my question.

My question was - since I don't have gluten antibodies, why would I have Hashi's, if it's gluten antibodies that cause it?  Why do we even need to test for TPOab and TGab?  

[goolarra]

Thank you for being the first to make any attempt to start a dialogue on this subject.  It's a breath of fresh air that I need right about now.

You bring up a very good point...it's extremely important when discussing this subject to distinguish between full-blown, autoimmune celiac and non-celiac gluten intolerance (no antibodies).  Celiac and gluten intolerance used to be used interchangably, but with the recent popularity of g/f diets, they have become quite distinct conditions.

You are correct about testing.  A positive antibody test is confirmation of celiac, but a negative antibody test does not rule it out.  Small intestine biopsy is the only way to rule out celiac completely.

Is your quote from the book (page #?), some other source, paraphrasing?  Some terminology aside that I'd prefer not to use, I follow the quote until the last sentence, "So, even if you have gluten intolerance, your test for gluten antibodies may be falsely negative if you have Th1-dominant Hashimoto’s."  The sentence should read, "So, even if you have CELIAC, your test for gluten antibodies may be falsely negative."   By definition, celiac comes with antibodies, non-celiac gluten intolerance does not.  There is no test (except elimintion/challenge, and that has its own deficiencies) for non-celiac gluten intolerance.  Also, the antibodies may be falsely negative regardless of your Hashi's status.  

[dpleiman]

From what i've read so far "and i'm just posting as i go"

It's possible to have gluten intolerance and it not show up on a test, some of  the most common symptoms of gluten intolerance is Excessive fatigue, depression and weight gain.. Which obviously have a close resemblence to hypothyroid symptoms and also these symptoms that persist even with treatment and "in range lab values" I'm not stateing that you have it, i'm just stateing this because i definitely question my own susceptibility to this and in my opinion for myself is worth further investigation.

I didn't read "so far" that gluten antibodies cause hashimotos. What i have read on Page 28 is "quote - Although no hard and fast rules exist in regard to what triggers an autoimmune disease, there do seem to be certain physiological conditions that can set the stage for Hashimoto’s. These include gluten intolerance, estrogen surges, insulin resistance, polycystic ovary syndrome, vitamin D deficiency, environmental toxicity, chronic infections and inflammation, and genetic susceptibility to the condition - unquote"
It further goes to state and i'm just paraphrasing here that the molecular struction of gluten closely resembles the thyroid gland "i by no means am a molecular biologist" sounds like an interesting job however :) I can't even begin to discount or credit that statement, i can tell you i'll definitely tear it apart, break it down piece by piece as far as i have to in order to find out if in fact "gluten has the same molecular structure as the thyroid gland"
with that said, and i'm paraphrasing again, i read that gluten doesn't CAUSE Hashimotos but because it closely resembles the thyroid gland then our "already autoimmune disease Hashimotos attacks the "gut leaked" gluten mistaking it for "thyroid tissue" creating inflammation similar to the attack of our thyroid.

My interpretation is that gluten acts like a thyroid tissue in the system and the autoimmune system attacks it just as it does thyroid tissue.

[goolarra]

"Gluten intolerance" NEVER shows up on a test.  Only full-blown autoimmune celiac disease shows up on a test.

I totally support "further investigation", in depth, of anything you suspect might be an issue for you.

I think the operative phrase in your quote is "...no hard and fast rules exist in regard to what triggers an autoimmune disease...", i.e. the cause(s) and precipitating factor(s) are unknown.

Yes, one of my big questions concerns gluten having similar molecular structure to the thyroid gland.  However, I have to ask that if anti-gluten antibodies somehow "morph" into thyroid antibodies (TPOab and TGab), then which has a similar structure to gluten, TPO or TG?  It's an important point since some of us with Hashi's are TPOab positive, some TGab positive, and some both.  Does this only apply to some of us???  

"gluten doesn't CAUSE Hashimotos but because it closely resembles the thyroid gland then our "already autoimmune disease Hashimotos attacks the "gut leaked" gluten mistaking it for "thyroid tissue" creating inflammation similar to the attack of our thyroid. "  I think you misread...K's theory is that it's the other way round...the anti-gluten antibodies leak out of the gut, and because thyroid "tissue" is "similar" to gluten, the anti-gluten antibodies somehow "become "either TPOab or TGab (or both...how's that possible since TPO and TG have much different molecular structures???).  Anyway, this is a very important point...K says that the anti-gluten antibodies that :leak" out of the gut attack thyroid "tissue", not vice versa.  

[dpleiman]

Page 29 “Quote” Every time undigested gluten mistakenly slips into the bloodstream, the immune system responds by destroying it for removal. That’s because gluten doesn’t belong in the bloodstream but gets there through overly permeable intestinal walls, or a “leaky gut” “unquote”

My interpretation of this statement is that, undigested gluten mistakenly slips into the blood stream, “the immune system” responds by destroying “it” (undigested gluten) for removal.. a reaction of the immune system because it sees “gluten” as the offender.. not gluten morphing and attacking thyroid tissue but rather the immune system attacking the gluten…

[LazyMoose]

This is kind of off the subject matter. I have not read the book. On the subject of 'leaky gut', there is an actual test for this not acknowledged by medical docs, but aimed at holistic docs.

***Does the book even mention a leaky gut test, or just make the assumption that you have it, if gluten makes you ill?***

My point is leaky gut is more rare than gluten intolerance and even full blown Celiac. It was though in the past to be many times completely separate of Celiac. As in its more common to have one or the other than both.

And just so readers know the difference between Celiac - actual sharp digestive pain from gluten antibodies designating the intestine and Gluten Intolerance, which there is no test for but creates digestive discomfort from Gluten and low energy levels.

[gimel]

But the book says on p. 26 that a serum antibody test will confirm Hashi's, and that TPO ab is the most important.  Sometimes a TG ab test is also necessary.  So Hashi's is identified by those two tests and symptoms.


The book does say on p. 29 that undigested gluten gets into the bloodstream through a "leaky gut" and infers that even people with only gluten intolerance have an autoimmune system reaction, resulting in antibodies that attack the thyroid gland, and that "the problem may be one of mistaken identity".  I have a big question as to what these gluten antibodies are supposed to be?  

The autoimmune system is not producing TPO ab and TG ab to destroy gluten, so what is this undefined antibody that is supposed to be attacking gluten and then mistakenly attacking the thyroid tissue that is supposedly so similar in molecular structure?

[goolarra]

No, I 'm not saying K says gluten "morphs".  K, in some way, thinks that the antibodies that attack gluten (gluten antibodies...and they DO attack the gluten, IF and only IFyou have autoimmune celiac, not just non-celiac gluten intolerance) somehow also attack thyroid tissue because it is "similar" to gluten.  What K does not connect is how these gluten antibodies that "get confused" (a big case of anthropomorphism) cause Hashi's.  Hashi's is caused by TPOab and TGab.  So, how do these anti-gluten antibodies "morph" into TPOab and/or TGab???   And which molecule is similar to gluten?  TPO or TG?  These are major holes in his theory...I don't really expect you to answer this question since he hasn't answered it, just throwing out food for thought here.

[dpleiman]

I guess i should be more educated on TPO and TG antibodies "i definitely don't know much about it"

I was merely stateing my interpretations of what little i read..

so is TPO and TG antibodies what is responsible for attacking my thyroid?

If so, i guess what i was interpreting from what i read is that whatever it is that is attacking my thyroid gland is also responsible for attacking the gluten?? is that TPO and TG? can that attack "leaked gluten"? I don't know anything about gluten anti-bodies? i didn't think there was such a thing unless you have celiac disease?  

[goolarra]

If you have Hashi's, TPOab and/or TGab are what ae attacking your thyroid.  TPOab and TGab cannot attack gluten, leaked or otherwise...TPOab attack TPO only, and TGab attack TG only, they don't even attack each other  If you have celiac disease, another kind of antibody, anti-gluten antibodies, attack the gluten and also destroy the little hairs in the small intestine that absorb nutrients, etc..

You are absolutely right...it's only if you have celiac disease that you have anti-gluten antibodies.  This is why it does not make sense to apply K's theory to people who are non-celiac gluten intolerant, because they have no antibodies...this is exactly where K's theory loses it.

[Smilerdeb]

I realise that my posting has nothing to do with Hypothyroidism but personally I think Datis Kharrazian is a con artist who commercialises his practices (Holistic he says) for the purpose of wellness but basically to line his own pockets.

Here is one example.....http://drknews.com/archives/219.

In one of his books he claims that Heart Disease is a gut-immune-hormone disease??

Is he for real or just another 'quack out to make a fast buck?
I have read a lot of his blogs and find them to be 'evasive'.....and also at the end of each blog he takes NO responsibility for any of his blogs.
Is he like a few other so -called Holistic Doctors I can mention that have been refused to be registered with the American Medical Association for underhand practises as a Doctor?

Sorry Guys but I am sick to death of hearing this guys name, his cr@p he writes and him conning innocent sick people thinking he can 'cure them'

Gluten Intolerance is just that...an intolerance to Gluten.
Celiac Disease is an Autoimmune Disease that has antibodies that attack the gut and intestines.
Not necesarrily Gluten either......there can be many foods that the gut cannot tolerate with Celiac.
Hashimotos is also an Autoimmune Disease
Graves is an Autoimmune Disease.

All these diseases produce Antibodies and regardless of what you eat, when you eat, what you dont eat etc...those antibodies are there for life.
There is NO CURE
t
But to write an article stating that Heart Disease is a gut-immune-hormone disease is absolutely irresponsible and incorrect.

I'm just waiting for him to write an article stating that we have Cancer because we eat carrots or we dont eat carrots etc.

Sorry Guys but this guy is a no-no in my eyes who writes books (and I might add...makes a damn good living from it ) ..basically earning more than being a Chiropractor (which is what he really is) and conning people.
The last I knew ..Chiropractors dealt with the skeletal system.
Forgive me if I am wrong lol.

There are people who are gluten intolerant and also Celiacs but if I was one of them...I would suffer in pain rather than follow his advice.

I am NOT against Holistic practises or Holistic medicine and teaching but this guy is on a good roll to make a fast buck and a lot of people are being sucked in by his bull.

[dpleiman]

Smiler I definitely understand your frustration.. There are a lot of "books" out there claiming one thing or another eh?

Goolera thank you for the info on the antiobodies, that is what i thought but i wasn't completely sure.

Now if we step away from Dr. K's theory for a moment if we could and let me ask this:

This is a quote out of a news article at thyroid-about.com and it references the medical journal of digestive diseases.

"Quote" According to research reported on in the medical journal Digestive Diseases and Sciences, a significant number of patients with autoimmune thyroid disease also have celiac disease.
"...researchers found that...organ-specific autoantibodies (i.e., thyroid antibodies) -- will disappear after 3 to 6 months of a gluten-free diet." "Unquote"

my question is this: why are they stateing that gluten free can eliminate specifically "thyroid antibodies"???

[LazyMoose]

"Quote" According to research reported on in the medical journal Digestive Diseases and Sciences, a significant number of patients with autoimmune thyroid disease also have celiac disease.
"...researchers found that...organ-specific autoantibodies (i.e., thyroid antibodies) -- will disappear after 3 to 6 months of a gluten-free diet." "Unquote"

- can you provide a link to this? If it disappears here, might have to PM me.

Thanks.

[dpleiman]

I found it here:

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/latestresearch/a/celiac.htm#ref

it is thyroid.about.c o m /cs/latestresearch/a/celiac.htm#ref
(i typed it this way in case my link doesn't work)

[dpleiman]

this is where all of this is coming from:

Digestive Diseases and Sciences, February 2000;45:403-406

If anyone has this document in its entirety i would LOVE to read it... I only found an abstract that only gave a "partial" listing of the article without charging a fee of $47.

This particular abstract stops short of stating
(researchers found that...organ-specific autoantibodies (i.e., thyroid antibodies) -- will disappear after 3 to 6 months of a gluten-free diet)

I'm questioning if this particular statement is in the original document of Digestive Diseases and Sciences, February 2000;45:403-406

[dpleiman]

Here is another discussion about it that sounds pretty informative from someone who read the abstract.


The paper looks specifically at auto immune thyroiditis, so we can be pretty sure that all of the patients actually had this auto immune problem. It's not clear from the abstract whether they only followed the five or six patients with confirmed villous atrophy for anti thyroid antibodies during gluten elimination, probably that's all they did as these are the only ones with Italian box ticked coeliac disease.

What's not clear is how many of the anti endomisium antibody negative thyroiditis positive patients also had total villous atrophy from coeliac disease which was AEA negative. The AEA positive patients were not reported to have diarrhoea despite total villous atrophy. The AEA test misses LOTS of patients who could also have total villous atrophy. Who knows how many of these were in the thyroiditis group? There are then the patients with non antibody mediated damage to the gut and thyroid, who would not show antibodies to any of the classical coeliac antibody markers. Patients with tight junctions between their enterocytes which leak gut content derived proteins to their immune system can probably get gluten induced auto immune diseases without any macroscopic gut damage.

Ultimately this study still looked at the tip of an iceberg but, on that tip, gluten avoidance appears to reverse anti thyroid antibody production in 3-6 months. My feeling is that anyone with an autoimmune disease would do well to try a minimum of 6m of absolute and total gluten avoidance and then get re tested. Until people start trying this we'll not really know the answer to your query.

Measuring and normalising their vitamin D status might help too.

[goolarra]

I was frustrated by not being able to get more of that study for free, too.  However, the abstract indicates that the scope of the study was to show a higher incidence of celiac among people with autoimmune thyroid disease, which is what we all know and accept, i.e. that once you have one autoimmune disease you are more apt to develop a second or third.  I'd expect that to be true for Hashi's/lupus, Hashi's/RA also.  As your reviewer states, it's unclear whether more than five or six patients was followed.  Not the kind of limited population I want my science based on.  This is also a 2000 study...I would have expected it to be expanded upon by now if these preliminary conclusions looked like they held any merit.

I also like your reviewer's statement, "Until people start trying this we'll not really know the answer to your query."  Hmmm...I think our studies need a little more control than that.  Actually, proving that a g/f diet  will "reverse" (lower? eliminate?) thyroid antibodies seems a pretty simple task.  Round up a bunch of subjects with celiac and Hashi's, make sure they're on a g/f diet (compliance can be monitored with bloodwork, and celiacs must eliminate gluten anyway)...seems to me after 3-6 months they ought to be Hashi's free, no?

Another question:  If a group has both celiac and Hashi's, how do we know which they developed first?  

One more observation:  These subjects had full-blown autoimmune celiac.  How, then, do we extrapolate from that that "anyone with an autoimmune disease (not just THYROID autoimmune, any autoimmune disease) ought to avoid gluten.  Getting back to the book...you remember that K's contention that anti-gluten antibodies attack the thyroid because its molecular structure is "similar" to gluten.  If that's true, where do other autoimmune diseases come from?  Surely, the structures attacked in those diseases aren't "similar" to gluten also!

I see a couple of real leaps of faith in these "conclusions".  I'd also like to know how the study was funded and why it hasn't been expanded upon...seems the g/f industry, which has expanded significantly with current g/f craze, would be more than willing to fund that kind of study.  Ten years is a long time with no follow-up.

[Barb135]

I found a site that breaks "gluten intolerance" down into 3 distinct categories: Celiac Disease, Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity and a Wheat Allergy.

As we know, celiac is an autoimmune, in which antibodies are produced; non-celiac gluten sensitivity is a bit more vague because there are no antibodies.  Wheat allergy has nothing to the the other two.  In both celiac and non celiac sensitivity, symptoms come on over a period of time; if one has a wheat allergy, symptoms come on very swiftly.  I used to work with a guy who had wheat allergy, but he did not have celiac......

On page 29, Dr K says "Every time undigested gluten mistakenly slips into the bloodstream, the immune system responds by destroying if for removal".  Note that he merely says "the immune system" -- he does not tell us which of the antibodies actually destroy the gluten.  We know that TPOab and TGab are both very specific and attack only the TPO and/or TG; therefore one would have to infer that it would be gluten antibodies that are attacking the gluten.  Then comes the question: how can this happen if there are no gluten antibodies? Therefore, if there are no gluten antibodies, how can they attack the thyroid (remember because of the "similarity" to the gluten molecules).  This then takes away a connection between the celiac and Hashi's, other than the fact that they are both autoimmune.

As goolarra pointed out, we can all agree that the likelihood of having celiac with Hashi's would be greater.  Beyond that you have to have a real good imagination to come up with a link.

On page 29 and beyond, K references research done by Dr Kenneth Fine, MD.  A quick search of him, tell me that he, also is a holistic doctor, who has his own "health institute" which can be found here:
http://intestinalhealth.org/

Apparently, Dr Fine, also has interests in Enterolab, which does genetic testing and is also promoted in K's book.  

While this is a rather interesting subject, I still fail to see a connection between gluten intolerance/celiac and Hashi's; other than the "similar" molecular structure theory, which to my knowledge has not been proven and although I did a bit of research have been able to find nothing, except in Dr K's book.

[goolarra]

I agree with you...I think the book is a waste of time and that K has the potential of making a big profit.  I only bought the book because it was being so ubiquitously recommended by one person on the forum.  I bought it under protest as I had already investigated one of K's local disciples and really did not want to support K with my money.

On page 189 of the book, K is addressing his network of "qualified health care practioners", and says, "By applying these principles, you can supercharge your practice..."  Pretty blatant, if you ask me.  Conveniently (?), K also sells the remedies used in his protocol, many of which are unavailable from other sources.  So, big bucks trading here.

In addition, there are a lot of inaccuracies in the book...a newbie reading this "thyroid bible" could come away with some very wrong ideas.  

On page 190, K goes on to say, "I encourage patients and doctors to visit the website and post testimonials..."  Once again, where are the studies?  Testimonials are what you solicit when you have no facts to back your theories.  I think a lot of people will be taken advantage of and K will probably get rich on this.  I not only feel bad about that, but I sincerely regret that this forum is being used to some extent to further his cause.

[yallolorry]

as a relative newbie, what book would you guys recommend me instead of this one? I'd really value any suggestions any of you have for something I could buy that you think would give me a really good comprehensive overview.

I read this one and it seemed to make a lot of sense to me, as a newcomer to the subject, but did also leave me with lots of questions so I haven't as yet followed any of his recommendations, I'm still making my mind up.

Has anyone done much exploration of his 400+ references? There are 5 studies he references specifically linking gluten and thyroid but the titles don't sound that promising and I haven't yet attempted any of them. Is the Digestive Diseases and Sciences, February 2000;45:403-406  study mentioned above one of them or is that something you've found separately?

I salute you goolarra for moving this discussion to a dedicated thread where everyone can explore the issues around this high profile book. And you dpleiman for your commitment to thoroughly investigating the subject. And everyone for sharing and caring so much.

x

[Smilerdeb]

I saw ads on the net for his seminars...$365 a person.
Sorry but even if I was dying, I would rather spend that well earnt $365 on something more concrete and productive than this so -called quacks ideas...and thats all they are. IDEAS.

Up until now I have seen nothing concrete to prove that a gluten free diet gets rid of ANY antibody.

Any person can post a testimonial.....my son in law lives in Queensland (Australia) and managed a Health Store giving people discounts if they posted a Testimonal on their website. So what does that tell you?

And my son-in-law did 6 years at Uni on nutrition and dietry health....only to work in a Health Food Store (known worldwide) to then walk away from it due to pressure of  'pushing' their products.

I believe that Dr. K is lining his own pockets at the benefit of others....which is sad as many who have thyroid issues are desperate and will try anything for a 'cure' when there is no cure for Autoimmune Diseases.
Management..yes, Cure ,,,NO.
I was also one of those desperate people when first diagnosed with Graves. If someone had said to me..."Here, take this and you will be cured"....I wouldve taken it but not now...I am a lot wiser to it all now.

Dr. K is also a Chiropractor and like many "get rich quick" Doctors has found himself on the Holistic trail as it really is a money maker.

As I have said in other postings....I dont "buy" this Doctor.

[goolarra]

No, as far as I know, the Digestive Diseases and Sciences article is not from K's bibliography.  Here's the link to what you can see for free:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/xv2h3k42n19gu6g5/?p=b084e6851f4b4a5e9f1f04b5f0bda6ac&pi=31

$47 is a bit dear for a ten-year-old study.

If you have questions, throw them out there!  Many of us who have been around for a while have questions about the book.  I think it's really interesting to see what people with not quite so much experience are concerned about, and what questions they have.  I'm hoping this thread will become one that we can reference to people considering and/or reading the book.  The more questions we put out there...the more critically they are apt to read it.  Include page numbers if you can.

I have not explored the references...there are too many of them, and I've already put way too much time into a book I have little respect for..  My feeling is that the person(s) recommending this book and its protocol should be able to provide the references to the studies.  If they did their due diligence, the references ought to be at their fingertips.  Perhaps one of them will post on this thread eventually, although repeated requests on other threads have as yet elicited no answers.

It's hard to recommend an overview book.  I've learned most of what I know from the forum and from net research.  It's so important to read both sides of every issue.  A whole book of one person's perspective can become tedious.  I hope someone else can recommend something to you.  

[Barb135]

Yallolorry ---  You said "as a relative newbie, what book would you guys recommend me instead of this one? I'd really value any suggestions any of you have for something I could buy that you think would give me a really good comprehensive overview".  

I can't really tell you because I've done most of my research online.  I tend to lean more toward the medical type websites, such as Mayo Clinic, universities, etc, as it seems that the content is more well rounded.  

There is a ton of thyroid information out there and there's no one place to get all the info, because treatment and/or management for thyroid issues are not "one size fits all".. They are as varied as the people who are suffering.   One has to sift through the information and find the solution that works best for you.

That was one of the issues we had with this book.  "Blanket or across the board" statements can be so dangerous.  

K even says on page 32   "A variety of tests exist to identify gluten intolerance and celiac disease, including EnteroLab's.  HOWEVER, ONE SHOULD APPROACH THESE TESTS WITH SKEPTICISM" (emphasis is mine).  

Same page (32) he says:  "It is not uncommon to see major resolution of hypothyroid symptoms just by following a gluten-free diet.  HOWEVER, AVOIDING GLUTEN DOES NOT *CURE* THE DISEASE."...........(again, emphasis is mine)

In his "note" at the bottom of the same page, he talks about removing casein, the protein molecule in dairy.  He goes on to say "There is not as much research on casein intolerance as there is on gluten intolerance, however anecdotal evidence strongly suggests a diet that is not only gluten-free, but also dairy-free promises the best results in managing Hashimoto's"  He insists that these things are necessary, yet he doesn't tell us clearly what the links are.  Are we to follow him (or his proteges) blindly?

When the author, himself, says that we should be skeptical of tests that he's pushing; and that avoiding gluten does not "cure" any disease, why should we, then, go to the trouble and expense of even trying his protocol?  When anyone puts as many disclaimers in a book as this one has, it really has to make me wonder about its validity.

I, like goolarra, pretty much bought the book under "duress" because I felt that it was being pushed so strongly on the forum, I needed to know what it said in order to either back it or disagree with it. Obviously, I've chosen to disagree with it.  

It's been stated here on the forum that there are those who have actually done damage by going g/f; and that there are those to whom whole grains are critical to good health; in view of that, the thought that someone whose been newly diagnosed, is scared to death, feels like cr@p and will try absolutely ANYTHING to feel better, might actually try this protocol, scares the heck out of me.  

We know there is no cure for autoimmune thyroid disease; as Deb said, it can be managed, but never cured.  

One thing we must always remember: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".

I totally agree with goolarra -- whatever questions you have, throw them out here so we can see what issues others have concerns about.  

Neither have I looked up any of the references in the book -- it's too tedious trying to get through them; and again, I agree with goolarra -- anyone touting the book, should have already looked into them and should have them at their fingertips.

[Smilerdeb]

This was on Dr. K's page promoting his book......

Do you take thyroid hormones, yet still suffer from fatigue, weight gain, hair loss, depression, or other hypothyroid symptoms? Are your symptoms steadily worsening while your blood tests stay the same? Do your symptoms go untreated because your lab tests are normal?

I will answer these questions as they are totally rediculous...bear in mind I have no thyroid and am on a T4 med ONLY.

1. Yes I take thyroxin (T4 med)

2.No I dont suffer from excessive fatigue..only the one that tells me its bedtime.

3.No I have from from 71kilograms (2.2lbs to a kg) to 57kilograms with no dieting.

4.No I dont have hair loss.

5.I do not suffer from depression....although I suffered from severe anxiety when thyroid levels was TOO HIGH prior to RAI and TT.

6.My condition is NOT worsening. I have completed 2 years studies as a Nurse (med endorsed) and am back in fulltime work.If anything my condition is fantastic and I have felt this way since I ablated my thyroid and then had it removed 3 months later.

7.No. I know my symptoms BEFORE my labs and have managed my medication on my own for the last 12 months.

Bear in mind that Dr. K also refers to studies done on Graves Patients too (of which I am one).
He claims studies have been done.......they probably have but many other studies ...they are just that... STUDIES.

The impression I am getting from his book is that IF you are CELIAC then MAYBE his methods will help you but ONLY for Celiac Persons.
And I mention once again...I AM NOT GLUTEN FREE.

So theres his credability out of the door for me.

[Smilerdeb]

One interesting poster who comments about Dr. K's book.............Interesting....

I got this book from my naturopathic who attened Dr. Kharrazian's workshop some what recently. I have seen my naturopathic for 5 years. the basic message behind this book is one fundamental one: remove casein & gluten from the diet. It seems like this is another new fad. My naturopathic also said there is a 396 dollar test for seeing if a persons immune system has a response (I think something like an IGa response), but 80% of americans would test positive (really? how can you know that stat?). I am just feeling like this is another dangling carrot. I have spent so much money on whatever my naturopath throws at me for the quarter of the current calandar year, I just don't know if this book is really 'for me'. I am happy to hear people with thyroid issues are feeling better if that is true for them... I don't know my issues are related to thyroid but the basic information may be applicable.
What botthers me is the jump on the 'CFGF' wagon. It is valid for some people, but auto immunoligy is so complex that what if ther person has auto immune IGa responses to other foods in addtion to, or not including dairy & wheat proteins?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/forum/cd/discussion.html/ref=ntt_mus_ep_cd_tft_tp?ie=UTF8&cdForum=FxL7H2KJHF22GY&cdThread=Tx11D2OPPO846P9

[TamraW]

This comes form the healthy skeptic's website. www.thehealthyskeptic.org


"So how do you find out if you’re gluten intolerant? Unfortunately, standard lab tests aren’t very accurate. They test for antibodies to gluten in the bloodstream. But antibodies in the blood will only be found in cases where the gut has become so permeable that gluten can pass through. This is a relatively advanced stage of disease. Blood tests will miss the many milder cases of gluten intolerance that haven’t yet progressed to that stage.

"Stool analysis is far more sensitive, because it detects antibodies produced in the digestive tract that aren’t yet escaping into the bloodstream.....

"Hashmioto’s, the most common autoimmune thyroid condition, is primarily a Th1 dominant condition. I’ll explain what this means in further detail in a future article. For now, what you need to understand is that in Th1-dominant conditions, the Th2 system is suppressed. The Th2 system is the part of the immune system responsible for producing antibodies. When the Th2 system is severely depressed, the body’s ability to produce antibodies is impaired. The levels may be so low that they won’t show up on a test. So, even if you have gluten intolerance, your test for gluten antibodies may be falsely negative if you have Th1-dominant Hashimoto’s.

"This is why I recommend that you avoid gluten if you have AITD, regardless of whether tests show an active antibody response. This is especially true if you have one of the genes (HLA DQ1,2, or 3) that predisposes you to developing gluten intolerance. In my opinion continuing to eat gluten when you have a confirmed autoimmune condition simply isn’t worth risking the immune destruction it could cause."


This was only a portion of the article. He actually has a few more thyroid articles on this page. Once again, the choice to go GF is yours. These are opinions by health experts that I personally believe hold true for my body, and I'm sure many other thyroid patients would benefit from healthier eating habits. For me, GF wasn't enough. I also limit fried foods, most dairy, corn, soy, sugar and I do not eat processed foods. I also avoid artificial sweeteners. Quite a long list, and I'm not expecting everyone to adhere to such a strict diet, but, for me, it has made all the difference.  

Thanks so much for starting this discussion. I have to bail. I'm going to the coast for a fishing trip, and I'm not sophisticated enough to have an iphone where I can chat online. Besides, this is family time. Or should I say, retrieving lost time, now that I'm following Dr. K's methods and feeling so much better. Besides, I have to save time for my little girl and my job, so I can't post as often as some others.

BTW - An estimated 90 percent of Hashi patients are TH1 dominant. I'm TH1 dominant and I take supplements for it. I also avoid foods and supplements that stimulate the TH1 response.

:) Tamra

[Barb135]

Wow...........wonder how much you got paid for *that* little tidbit??

Common sense tells us that if we are to be healthy we need to limit fried/fatty foods, soy, sugar, artificial sweeteners and most processed foods.......  Eliminating those things from the diet are sort of like - no brainers.   I think most of us know that the closer to raw, our food is, the healthier it is.  

I took a quick scan down the article; I didn't see an author - would you mind telling us who "he" is that wrote the page?  Admittedly, I went down it pretty fast, so it's quite likely that I missed the author's name....

Happy fishing!!

[yallolorry]

the healthy sceptic website is chris kresser and from other posts on his site I would say he appears to be a devotee of Dr K.

http://thehealthyskeptic.org/about

[yallolorry]

I'm going to do a few posts during the course of the day as there's lots that's been said already I'd like to respond to and I have a load of questions too, as I said before. I won't do it all in one go, it could turn into war and peace and I only have so much stamina for sitting at the computer on a sunday. :)  I might be posting over a few days.

thanks all for participating in this post. I have to say, I'm a bit concerned again at what strikes me as an extraordinarily aggressive and discussion-stifling tone to a lot of what has been said, I don't like it but I recognise I can't control how anyone else chooses to express themselves and clearly some of you are hugely frustrated and have spent a lot more time on this to date than I have so perhaps have a right to be, so I'll try and live with it. But please just let me say again, for newbies and lurkers, all this shouting and finger pointing is not an inviting or conducive environment for learning.

[yallolorry]

For what it's worth here are my answers to Dr K's questions, so you know where I'm coming from:

Do you take thyroid hormones, yet still suffer from fatigue, weight gain, hair loss, depression, or other hypothyroid symptoms? Are your symptoms steadily worsening while your blood tests stay the same? Do your symptoms go untreated because your lab tests are normal?

I take thyroxine and am  finally starting T3 meds next week as my blood tests have been at the far end of the normal range for 5 months but I still get fatigue and brain fog and weird sore feet as well as swelling round my eyes and ankles. I'm frustrated and I want to get 100% well but my symptoms have improved considerably since the end of last year/start of this year I am working full time again but really worried that the brain fog is affecting my career and cheesed off I don't have the energy to do all the things I'd like to do. I don't work or commute long hours but my job is very mentally (and sometimes physically) demanding. I don't have a family to look after, if I did I suspect I wouldn't be coping at all well. I just wanna be well! But I spent a load of money on a naturopath before my hypothyroid was diagnosed whch I now realise was perhaps a bit of a waste (might possibly even have made things worse)  - and I am super sceptical about unsubstantiated claims.

[yallolorry]

I'm concerned about how robust Dr K's protocol is. He says it's based on science and that he has written "numerous professional papers", I'm surprised that none of the references he gives are to papers he has authored. has anyone seen any of his own actual research?

the case studies in his book seem very weak. eg: "one woman seemed to be getting better on the protocol but then never came back so we weren't able to tell how well she might have gotten if she'd carried on with it" (page 14). If he has ten years of clinical practice and a network of practitioners following his protocol why isn't he pointing to more robust stats demonstrating results?

What trials is Dr K carrying out with his protocol? Is his work peer reviewed? where is it published?

Are gluten and thyrod molecules really the same shape? Who else says this? has anyone seen any other reference to this that hasn't orginated with Dr K?

How reputable are the various academic institutes he is associated with and what do his extensive qualifications / letters after his name really mean?

How reputable is Enterolab
How reputable is Dr Fine, who is quoted in Dr K's book as a leading researcher and has links with Enterolab

Has anyone on here followed the links to further research that TamraW posted on the other thread? Any comments on any of them?

I have just gone through all 400 references in the book and marked the ones that seem like they could be relevant to the gluten debate, There appear to be about 20 of them (some are repeated so I'm not sure I've got an exact number), I haven't looked at any of them yet and I'm not a scientist so not sure how capable I will be at reviewing them. Anyone up for divvying them up and reporting back on what we can find out?

I'm also really concerned that some of his footnotes seem to be extremely tenuous, eg, page eleven talks about male reproduction and hormone imbalance links but gives a reference (footnote 3) to a study that sounds completely unrelated as it's about diabetes, sylvestre leaves and rats!

the thing is, I have all these concerns but he makes a very compelling case for taking a holistic approach to thyroid issues (gluten being just one of the things he talks about) and TamraW and others are clearly seeing some results. which I totally accept may be coincidental rather than attributable to the protocol but equally, maybe they are because of it - and I want to get to the bottom of this!

I think my next step on this will be to ask the British Thyroid Foundation, which I'm a member of, if they have any comments. I won't neccessarily take their view as gospel any more than I am accepting Dr K's or anyone else's but I am interested in what they may say and will share if you'd like me to.

I work for a large medical research organisation, so while I'm not a scientist (I'm a fundraiser and marketeer) I have a little bit of knowledge about how slow medical science is to move forward and how sometimes it can be worth trying things that are as yet unproven because that is one of the ways that knowledge gets out into the mainstream, by people testing and learning. I''m grateful to everyone for posting their experiences and opinions.

Note to the wise - if you think you've heard something before, there's no communication taking place.  Whatever has happened in this discussion on other threads up until now, let's use this thread for everyone to share and listen and learn from each other. The truth can then shine through.

Anyone new to the subject will not have read all the other threads and is probably unlikely to go looking for them ) but hopefully will come to this one and find it useful. What a shame if they come and see and slanging match and are turned off by that so don't read through to get the facts.

Let's create a really productive discussion space, together. It's a shame TamraW will be away (nice for her of course to get a holiday but you know what I mean!) but gives space for others to contribute if they are interested to, let's see who else joins the thread and what they might have to share with us....

love and light as ever to all of you

[yallolorry]

thanks for re- sharing the link to the 2000 study Goolara, I agree with what's already been said about it, it doesn't seem to say anything that isn't, by now, obvious and it doesn't look like it provides back up evidence that going gluten free is something everyone with hashimotos should consider.

The most interesting  looking (to me, but what do I know!!) study Dr K's book points to is this one:

Celiac Disease and autoimmune thyroid disease, Clin Med Res 2007 Oct: 5 (3) 184 - 92. Review.

I've just put the title into Google and quite a lot comes up including what look like possible follow up articles with later dates and some articles on naturopath type sites that might trace back to Dr K and his network, or may be more independent. I'll do some more digging and see what I can see....

[yallolorry]

the abstract to that paper and a link to the author to request the full thing is here:

http://www.clinmedres.org/cgi/content/abstract/5/3/184

I still don't see any empirical evidence being posed that going gluten free is advisable for everyone with hashimotos.

[yallolorry]

there are however 355 related articles on  pubmed!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Link&db=pubmed&dbFrom=PubMed&from_uid=18056028

[yallolorry]

if anyone has a subsription to Nature Review this is another, very recent, article that looks intriguing but they're not just giving free access (infuriatingly!):

Autoimmunity: Does celiac disease trigger autoimmune thyroiditis?
Leonidas H. Duntas, 2009


http://www.nature.com/nrendo/journal/v5/n4/full/nrendo.2009.46.html

it's available from the British Library which is 5 mins down the road from me so I might end up going and spending some time down there at some stage...

I'm stopping this now, I fear I am in danger of becoming obsessive!


xxx

[Smilerdeb]

Damn good postings!

[Barb135]

Wow -- I love those posts.  You have made some excellent points; I can't address all of them, but will try to hit on a few of them.

In your first post, you mentioned professional studies done by Dr K -- to this point, we have not seen any.  All we've seen are the same testimonials that you see in the book (some of us purchased the book simply because it was being touted so much).

I totally agree with you in regards to the testimonials.  If the protocol is SO successful, why does he reference someone who started, then stopped?  My guess is that he is trying to portray that woman as "weak" in not continuing the protocol.

In regards to Dr Fine, please read one of my earlier posts in this thread, in which I made these comments:  "On page 29 and beyond, K references research done by Dr Kenneth Fine, MD.  A quick search of him, tells me that he, also is a holistic doctor, who has his own "health institute" which can be found here:
http://intestinalhealth.org/

Apparently, Dr Fine, also has interests in Enterolab, which does genetic testing and is also promoted in K's book."

I do not see Dr Fine as being any more credible than Dr K.

I followed  a couple of links that Tamra provided; never did find credible work.  

One of the points we have been trying to make all along is that the protocol has been thrown into SO many posts over the past few months, and when asked for scientific proof that it works, all we got were testimonials; the comment(s) about how well one person is doing.  Sorry, that's not scientific.  

I've done several searches myself  and have yet to come up with any other ones that say the gluten molecule is so similar to the thyroid molecule that it's a case of mistaken identity, as Dr K says.  The only link I can find to celiac and Hashimoto's is that they are both autoimmune; and as we've said repeatedly, if you get one autoimmune, you are very likely to get another.  At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I currently have 2 autoimmunes: that's Hashi's and pernicious anemia.  

Yes, Dr K makes a very good case for holistic treatment; and there are people who may see improvement; could that a coincidence?  I know that Dr K advocates certain vitamins/minerals; he actually has his own concoction that he sells to patients of his proteges.  I, personally, take some of those same vitamins/minerals (not his - just what I buy at the health food store) that he talks about, and I've found that taking certain supplements helps ease some of my symptoms.  

In appropriate circumstances, I will suggest that a poster try these things.  Never would I insist that they are the right thing for EVERYONE; nor would I insist that they will *cure* anything.  They simply help me manage my disease a bit easier.

You asked these questions: "Do you take thyroid hormones, yet still suffer from fatigue, weight gain, hair loss, depression, or other hypothyroid symptoms? Are your symptoms steadily worsening while your blood tests stay the same? Do your symptoms go untreated because your lab tests are normal?"

My answer is: I had almost all of these things, but they are gradually getting better.  I do take thyroid hormones (both T4 and T3).  I did suffer from fatigue, I did have weight gain, I did have hair loss and other hypothyroid symptoms.  Fortunately, I did not have a lot of the depression, except that caused by feeling so poorly all the time.  

In my case, my doctor kept me ill for some months by treating only TSH.  My TSH, which started at 55+, dropped way down almost at once.  I was up to 150 mcg synthroid and still not doing well, yet my doctor began cutting my dose based on TSH, because my FT3 and FT4 were "in range" - only barely.  My doctor did not send me for antibody testing or ultra sound.  Simply treated TSH, and almost had me completely off med because of that.  I felt like I was going to die.

It was by shear luck that I got sent to an ENT, who had done some previous surgeries on me.  This ENT realized immediately what was happening and sent me for the antibody tests and an ultra sound.  He then diagnosed Hashimoto's and referred me to an endo.  My pcp refused to even acknowledge the endo at all and continued to try to dose me based on TSH.  

I finally had to leave that pcp and find another, who initially tried to do the same thing, but I refused to let him.  

I have climbed very slowly from feeling like death warmed over, to being able to actually  make it through  my 10 hr work day without falling asleep at the wheel (my job requires a lot of driving), deal with my elderly aunt and her breast cancer, take care of my home, etc.  

Do I get tired? You bet I do; who wouldn't after working the hours I work and dealing with some of the things I'm currently dealing with?  Do I still have weight to lose?  Yes, but a lot of that is my own fault.  Do I still have lingering symptoms?  Yes, sometimes I do, because unfortunately, stress can play a huge part in how well we do with thyroid diseases, and I sure know that I've had more than my share of stress.

Dealing with thyroid issues has no fast or easy solution.  Most of us have cautioned repeatedly that dealing with it takes patience, patience and more patience.  I've been dealing with mine for a little over 2 yrs.  

In my opinion, anyone who offers a "cure" for something that's incurable, you need to run fast, no matter how compelling the information may seem.  Dr K got where he is, by being compelling.  

[yallolorry]

thank you both and Barb, I get your final point, big time!

It seems to be a particular lesson for me at this point in my life that compelling or charismatic people are not always what they seem and not always to be believed. that lesson seems to be repeating for me a lot over the last few years ( I mentioned my experience with a local naturopath, lovely woman, full of b***s***t, pardon my language).

I may still try a gluten free approach myself at some point as my endo has agreed it may be worth experimenting with and I value TamraW's testimony and that of others who have posted here and elsewhere, that it has seemed to be helpful for them.

I guess the big get out clause that K has perhaps created for himself is that you have to be 100% gluten free for at least 6 months before you get the benefits - that's a tough regime to stick to, so easy to say "it didn't work for you because you didn't stick to it" and a lot of other things may impact ones health in that 6 month period.

I think  personally I will just continue to try and eat as healthily as I can, avoiding white flour and sugar in particular as much as possible (just as they are so processed I know they're not good for anyone) and see how I get on with the T3 trial I'm about to start.

btw though, I don't actually see Dr K saying he has a "cure" anywhere in his book, he's very careful to avoid saying that and includes very clear disclaimers as we've already talked about. He definately acknowledges the need for medication in many cases of hashis, what he's claiming is that his protocol helps reduce symptoms and in some cases may prevent full blown hypothyroidism from developing, (I think!).

I personally am simply looking to feel as good as I can by whatever means I can, as I imagine is the same for lots of us. Patience is hard but I do my best and am grateful for everyone else's support and sharing on here.

[Barb135]

I believe you are correct that Dr K does not claim to "cure" Hashi's -- that statement was made by others in other threads.  

Another of the points made is that if a protocol were all that fantastic, one would be able to stand by ones opinion, without the number of disclaimers as there are in the book.  One of his major disclaimers, is that if the protocol doesn't work, the thyroid was already damaged too much when the patient came to him.  

We've had people claim that "my thyroid is working again".  You can't make a non working thyroid, suddenly begin to work.  Maybe there's still some hormone leaking for something that makes it appear that the thyroid is working.

No one is saying that you should NEVER go g/f.  There certainly are instances in which it's absolutely appropriate.  Our point is that it's not for everyone, as has been touted.  

I think you are very wise in your decision to "eat healthy" and avoid white flour and sugar.  That's good advice for all of us.  In fact, I do the same.  I rarely eat foods with either white flour or sugar; I even eliminate regular pasta and white rice; I've gone to whole grain pasta and brown rice instead.

I have a feeling that the T3 med is going to make a huge difference for you.  It certainly did for me, although, once again -- it's not for everyone and should only be given when needed.

[dpleiman]

Yallolory - I think you have made some very valid points and actually gotten to the heart of what this book is "really" about and what we are all looking for "feeling the best we can, in whatever way that might be.

ALL - I think we all to some degree understand that we have an incureable condition, but the bottom line is finding the ways in which  we can feel good with it, and that seems to be different for all of us and require our own experimentation for what works for us...

And i'm going out on a limb making this next statement and expect some persecution for it, but in my opinion, the same concept holds true for the controversial "treatment" of FT3, there are just as many scientific studies that has proven to not work as they have proven to work, to me this just shows again how we are all different and require different methods and experimentation to feel the best that we can. We are pushing FT3 labs and treatment on this website like it is holy, it is almost a "requirement" to successful treatment "and maybe that is true" FOR SOME, but it is just as controversial as any other treatment out there "this is why it is not well known in mainstream medicine"

I've read posts where people have FOUGHT to get FT3 treatment based on the recommendation of people on this forum only to be dissapointed and felt let down because it didn't improve their symptoms yet they fought so hard to get it with a hope that this is the missing piece to their "i still have symptoms on my thyroid meds" puzzle. this clears the way for people to start reaching for books like Dr. K's in a desperate attempt to finally get an answer because SOMEONE feels good with this condition, somewhere, but it's so diverse that what works for them doesn't work for us and we are back at square 1.

I think if any lessons learned with this particular subject in its entirety is that, we are all different, what works for us might not work for others and that we can only make statements of our own personal experience, how it has helped us, with our own personal interpretations of the information we have read and allow people to take each thing into consideration, experiment with their own ideas, thoughts and interpretations without pressure to follow someone elses "treatment" and only give our information as a guide or a tool to take into consideration in the whole picture of things.

[dpleiman]

As an additional side note:

Nobody can EVER remove a disclaimer stateing that this may not work for you, because the reality of it is that we are all different, even if you have a study of 2000 people and it was successful for all 2000 people, there is ALWAYS the chance that 1 in 2500 is not successful but they didn't find that because it wasn't 2500.... Nothing is 100% except death.. I dont' say taxes because some people find loop holes :)

[Emily_MHModerator]

Wow - great discussion!  Just wanted to add to keep in mind that this is a support forum, and that not one thing will work for everyone, and that people need to take ALL of it in, process it, and come to a decision that is best for them.

:)

Emily

[LazyMoose]

I'd like to make a SIMPLE comment here that is constantly missing from all the G/F posting this month.

The way I see it is its possible in people that these symptoms although very similar to thyroid/Hashimoto are actually separate in many cases. And this Dr K is just making people assume its all from thyroid antibodies caused from gluten. We must not forget that hypo symptom can mimic other issues unrelated to the thyroid. So a hypo thyroid person can have symptoms from thyroid and other, while blaming it all on thyroid malfunction.

People with Hashimoto can remove a food from their diet and they do feel better, we all know this. And the symptoms may have been relieved even if they WERE NOT hypothyroid.  So how can anyone automatically claim this is even a thyroid issue? Certain foods can make the whole body weak in some people, regaurdless of what name we slap on it. And the thyroid is a very touchy organ in the body.

I went G/F a couple years ago to clear up digestive issues (gut bacterial overgrowth), it was temporay and helped. The symptoms that went away were several and digestive only.. Although digestive issues can be from hypo, not all are. My  known Hashimoto symptoms remained, but digestively I was way better. My antibodies did not change. A year after I added T3 and digestive improved more. So my digestive issues were the source of two issues, not one.

On another note: A family member who had hypothyroid labs (but not Hashimoto antibodies at all) as well as a slew of  similar hypo symptoms felt better after going G/F. Lost weight, brain fog cleared, and hypo labs improved. This person never had Hashimoto antibodies to begin with, she did have , per labs, 'regular' hypothyroid, and it was a temporary condition the whole time - no antibodies developed, no antibodies to blame. The fact that 'regular' hypothyroid (non-hashi ) can be temporary should not be new info to people.

So who is to say one with Hashimotos symptoms cant also have similar symptoms that are temporary  adding to there declining heath that are actually from from something else.?  Happened to me. And if their thyroid antibodies did drop (not in me), well we know this just happens, even to people that arent G/F.

[Barb135]

Very good points LazyMoose and this is exactly what we've been trying to get across.  

Not every symptom we have is thyroid related, no matter how much we'd like to blame the thyroid for them.  

One can have hypothyroidism and one can have digestive issues; they need not be related.  As you said, if there are no antibodies, there will be no attacks.  

I have read a bit that gluten is related to candida; sounds like that may have been your issue - or at least part of it.

Could it be that clearing up your digestive issues, helped the thyroid med absorb better?  And yes, we know thyroid antibodies can drop; we also know they can go into remission, but will never go completely away.  

[goolarra]

Wow, just when you think it's safe to actually sleep an eight-hour night...I agree with Emily, wonderful discussion.  I'd like to thank dplieman and yallolory for making such a great contribution to this thread and putting so much effort into it.  I don't know you guys like I know some of the other members on this thread, but I've really learned a lot from your posts and enjoyed your input.  Okay, no more mushy stuff!

I think dplieman is right, K never says the word "cure".  However, he does repeatedly suggest that following his protocol treats the autoimmune (antibodies) aspect of this disease where conventional medicine only treats symptoms.  His claims stop just short of "cure"  

I agree that Moose brings up some very good points.  A g/f diet is absolutely beneficial for a number of people, WHETHER OR NOT they have Hashi's and IF they have gut issues that a g/f diet is much more likely to address.

Yallolory...yes, very interestingt...are the gluten molecule and thyroid "tissue" very similar molecularly?  I don't know, but I do have trouble with the "similar" concept for a number of reasons.  

#1 - Antibodies are VERY specific...one antigen (protein), one antibody.  Your smallpox antibodies don't protect you from polio and vice versa.  More to the point, researchers "guess" every year about what this year's flu virus (antigen) is going to be.  However, the flu virus is constantly mutating, but it's still a flu virus.  However, if the flu antigen is not EXACTLY the same as researchers predict, then it is of limited effectiveness since your antibodies don't "recognize" the mutated virus as flu.  This is the first major disconnection for me in K's theory...when it comes to antibodies, "similar" just doesn't cut it.

#2 - Gluten escapes the gut, and anti-gluten antibodies start on their search and destroy mission.  However, they get confused by thyroid tissue and "decide" to attack that instead, and thus "Hashi's is born".  So, so far we have anti-gluten antibodies attacking the thyroid tissue.  However, the two antibodies implicated in Hashi's are TPOab and TGab.  Where do they come from?  Does this anti-gluten antibody somehow "morph" in to either TPOab or TGab or both?  Is it one of these two (TPO and TG) that is similar to gluten?  If so, which one?  TPO is an enzyme, and TG is the protein precursor to thyroid hormones...TPO's molecular structure is much different from TG's.  Sorry, but these puzzle pieces just will not fall together in my mind.

#3 - TPOab and TGab are both thyroid antibodies, yet TPOab's don't attack TG, and TGab's don't attack TPO.  Yet, anti-gluten antibodies attack one or the other???

Yallolory, I like your "divide and conquer" idea, but I'm quite sure that if there were studies to prove the gluten/Hashi connection, they would not be buried in a bibliography that could choke a horse...they'd be proclaimed loud and clear in the main text of the book, complete with statistics, with a giant footnote to the original study.  K wouldn't have to rely on testimonials if he had proof.  The same holds true of any studies proving the effectiveness of his treatment.  Why doesn't he even publish his own performance results?

[goolarra]

One more thought to chew on as you go about your Sunday...great food for thought if you have something mindless to do, like housecleaning!

If gluten is the cause of Hashi's, then why are we also more likely to get lupus, RA, pernicious anemia, etc.  What's the commection between Hashi's and those?  Seems to me you have to go back further than gluten, perhaps to a genetic predisposition???

I don't know...just getting some of my questions out there that I didn't find the answers to in the book.

[blsdnsvd]

I'm gonna get off of the "gluten" topic altogether..and would like the answer to the question that is the title of the post...Why do I still have thyroid symptoms, if my labs are normal????

I do understand that if the free's are "out of range" even when they are in range, symptoms will still occur, but most professionals don't realize this and they sort of "shove" the patient's concerns under the rug but only leaving the patient frustrated and not knowing what to do next!....

Also, does this book talk about other causes besides "hashi's" such as goiter/nodules that will cause the patient to have to undergo surgery to remove the thyroid and become hypo..forever???

[LazyMoose]

I though I'd give some actual examples as these related posts are getting pretty detailed for the common 'lurker' out there and even some regulars here.

Gluten issues/hypo/gut candida/ other bacterial overgrowth can all have related symptoms and can be intertwined, its easy for people to react and point at one without fully understanding what happened to them individually through an analytical approach.

Fact: Hypothyroid and Hashi hypo people often have slowed digestive systems when first Dx'ed with hypo, before treated with thyroid meds, (or in my case when T4 only med did not work very well). This is a hypo thyroid symptom.  As years went by with hypo symptoms,  new digestive symptoms occurred as an INDIRECT result from hypo. That is when I noticed certain foods started to create major discomfort and issues, digestion itself was becoming an issue. Now, when / if the digestive tract is slowed people can have reactions to gluten and other small particles in the gut, fact. I am not going to 'lable'  or name this as a separate disorder such as gluten intollerance. I know I did not have Celiac antibodies. It was some form of bacteria in the gut and or intestines proven from a stupid sounding "morning saliva in a cup a water  sink or float test". Its on the web , many places.

Purly coincidental I went to a highly recomended chiro for ongoing neck/ back pain (lack of T3 partially to blame) . Turns out he was another one of those holistic healers too. Well he knew some facts that aren't necessarily secrets. He asked about digestive issues on the new patient info sheet. He knew I was still hypo pointing to T4 med only. Told me to do the glass of water test for a week of consistent comparable results.

Turns out, I had it, failed the test every day. Taking probiotics while being gluten and sugar free, less carbs (while not 100%) for around 4 months greatly helped me with digestion and I later reintroduced wheat slowly, but cut most sweets forever.  I still had hypo symptoms though on the T4, and still required my usual increase from Hashi per lab results at that time. So I cant say that T4 med absorption was increased at all in my case. A year after, I added T3, and no longer needed probiotics either, as T3 improved digestion by speeding up the process, thus, stuff (gluten and other small partices) no longer 'sat' there. I 'pass the water/ saliva test almost always to this day and I take NOTHING for my digestion.

So it can work in a vicious circle if someone has this and does not stop the cycle.

Important note:  I am surprised I have not heard this Dr K mentioning gut Candida, (that was a question as I have not read the book). Candida, possibly for many hypos, is more to blame than gluten alone, as Candida gut growth is promoted by more than just gluten alone, and slow digestive tract is a big part of starting the cycle.

Closing note: If a slow digestive tract was the STARTING point of what I had, well that a was hypo issue to begin with, not a gluten issue to begin with in my case. I could blame gluten, but after figuring out this past mystery I know that gluten is not to blame, but became an associated 'byproduct' of the real issue.

[goolarra]

The book really has everything to do with autoimmune thyroid disease, especially Hashi's.  Even Graves' is barely mentioned.  Not any discussion of goiter/nodules, except as symptoms of Hashi's.

And, I think you hit the nail on the head about the title...the ranges need updating (they're wrong), and many doctors think that once a patient is "in range", their job is done.  They make no adjustments for "personal range".  And, I think, therein lies the answer to the question in the title in a vast majority of cases.

[LazyMoose]

Glutin leaking through the gut is similar to 'leaky gut', but leaky gut is thought to be from more food than gluten molecules.

Since this is the general idea the book coveys -(from your post above):
"#2 - Gluten escapes the gut, and anti-gluten antibodies start on their search and destroy mission.  However, they get confused by thyroid tissue and "decide" to attack that instead, and thus "Hashi's is born".  So, so far we have anti-gluten antibodies attacking the thyroid tissue.  However, the two antibodies implicated in Hashi's are TPOab and TGab.  Where do they come from?  Does this anti-gluten antibody somehow "morph" in to either TPOab or TGab or both?  Is it one of these two (TPO and TG) that is similar to gluten?  If so, which one?  TPO is an enzyme, and TG is the protein precursor to thyroid hormones...TPO's molecular structure is much different from TG's.  Sorry, but these puzzle pieces just will not fall together in my mind."

I will say it: I think Dr K's therory in the book is backwards, at least most of the time.

The opposite direction has been a thought for years on 'leaky gut'  issues with Hashimoto and 'regular' hypothyroid patients. In the case of Hashi they might have Hashi antibodies first. You dont need antibodies of any type to have 'leaky gut', not necessarily an antibody issue. Slow digestive tract from hypo can be the issue and leaky gut and or gluten intolerance can follow. Even small seeds, nut particles and other (I forget) can trigger 'leaky gut' as this stuff sits and rots in the intestines of some people with slow digestion - people that are currently or were hypo at the time it started. This theory just states its possible in some cases. So, to say this theory in reverse is what causes Hashi, more evidence against it.

[LazyMoose]

"Why do I still have thyroid symptoms, if my labs are normal?"

- This question is a least half the reason "thyroid disorders community" exists here. The other half I suppose is for educating on treatment and needed blood labs for people that are new to all this.

Some (most actually) feel major improvment (some 100%) on only T4 meds when even placed in the wide ranges of labs.

They probably were :
1) dx'd soon
2) Had minimal health or skeletal issues before hypo
3) their bodies readily accept hormone that is not the same as their own

I know people with no hypo issues on a T4 med, that would be an absolute dream for many of us. Those people most likely do not frequent thyroid info / help as it was never an issue with them. I have an endo that actually believes that some peoples cell receptors do not accept certain thyroid hormone, we know that, but most docs will not acknowledge this as a fact. Our bodies are smart in different ways. I read an 'opinion' on this years ago. A Dr claimed most people that do not accept thyroid med very well coincidentally do not have many viruses or colds either. He said despite having autoimmune disease their bodies may look at hormone replacement as foreign substance (it is!) rejecting it, and these people have a pretty strong self defense in their body which is why they dont get colds. The opposite theory of autoimmune people getting sick more often from colds/ viruses is bolony I think. I have Hashi and rarely get colds, but have had Hashi symptoms for a long time back on T4 only.

Hypo can magnify any other health issues one has, that is why our worst symptoms can be different yet there are common ones many share.

So many theories, its our job to look at all and decide what we want to try. Doing nothing creates the same results. Thats why its good for people to share what worked for them,  while at the same time understanding that it may not be for all.

[magpieannie]

Your description is exactly what I have seen and experienced in my thyroidless daughter. Also, her doctor (an MD) said that she went to a medical conference recently where the health effects related to gluten were discussed in great detail. She said the increased issues we are seeing with gluten for many today is that the AMOUNT that is found in todays food supply is much more then in the past ( she said an estimated 9x more). I don't know if she's talking in the last 10 years or 20 or how long ago she's compairing today to though?  When you compair todays intake of food/grains to yesterdays, it is a much higher exposure rate due to it being in so many products in the commom  everyday diet of high carb. and processed foods that so many eat too much of. Plus, not only do we eat more of these products today, these products also have more gluten in them compaired to the same products of the past. When you throw in the issue of slow digestion of many hypothyroid people into the mix, then it is not a surprise that relief of symptoms can be found in some who limit the amount of gluten they are exposed to. Does this mean my daughter is allergic to it, no, just sensitive to it I guess due to slow digestion (just can't process it well I think.) One thing is for sure here though, MANY things are improved in her since we began avoiding it last January and we were able to reduce her need for thyroid hormone replacement by 1/2 grain per day. It is like her body is now better able to utilize the thyroid hormone replacement better now, which is a great thing to see all around. We all like positive changes in our health, and that is definitly what we have seen here. (Also the fungal aspect of it all must not be forgotten- as grains are stored for long periods of time and full of fungus and pesticides- not good for anyone, especially not my thyroidless, low metabolic/ hypothyroid daughter. We try our best now to pay better attention to all these things, and she is much the better for it.

[magpieannie]

Very interesting point/connection from the doctor about people who seem resistent to some types of thyroid hormone (see it as a foreign invader). My daughter did not do well on t4 only synthetic Synthroid for years (conversion issues) and guess what-  She seems  NEVER to get sick with colds, flu (never had a flu shot), upper respitory infections or sore throats, as the rest of us do in our family from time to time. She has always been healthy except for issues in the past caused by being kept hypothyroid on Synthroid only and not having her available t3 kept high enough for her to be metabolically well.

[goolarra]

I can accept the leaky gut.  Once the gluten is in the bloodstream, supposedly anti-gluten antibodies attack it and try to eliminate it.  So far so good.  Then the anti-gluten antibodies get side-tracked by the "similar" thyroid tissue, and you have Hashi's.  There's a major missing link there.  On this basis, K states that all Hashi's should be g/f.  If you don't have full-blown, autoimmune celiac, no anti-gluten antibodies are involved.  If I remember correctly, only about 3.4% of people with Hashi's have autoimmune celiac.  So, where is the Hashi/gluten connection for the other 96.6% of us who do not have celiac, and why should all of us be g/f?  And, as you point out, if the leaky gut theory is "backwards", we have to assume that of the 3.4 % with both Hashi's and celiac, SOME had Hashi's FIRST.  So, he's basing a ubiquitous g/f recommendation on something like 2% of the Hashi's population.  

Once again, if a g/f diet helps anyone to feel well, then I am all for it  However, for it to be so highly recommended on a THYROID forum and recommended for ALL Hashi's, I think that, at the very least, a positive link should be established between gluten and Hashi's.  I'm trying to put that link together, and I'm just not doing it.

The rest of K's protocol also needs some proof that directly relates it to thyroid issues, not just to improved general health, improved gut health, healthier diet (g/f is just ONE of many ways to achieve this), placebo effect, etc.  

[LazyMoose]

There is no one answer. As people can have all of or some of these related topics. Its different per individual which is not (from what I'm hearing) the same for all as the book states.

As in my case , I had Hashi first and later developed sensitivity to gluten (but also sugar and carbs) from  (and DR K does not mention this (?)), some type of gut Candida.  As I stated earlier after eliminating those from my diet for 4 months, I got better and reintroduced them at a lower amount. But I still have Hashi and antibodies.

Hes not looking at the whole picture as it is to complicated to point to one problem source, altlthough he claims to, and your "missing link" is the proof.

Another way to look at it is these are all different problems that can be related and he is assuming it is related for all Hashi people. If that were the case, gluten would make me ill again, it does not.

I think I should shut off the computer!!

[goolarra]

Sorry, I forgot about your question.  No, I can't remember that he mentions candida, and a quick look at the index confirms that it isn't there.

[Barb135]

You are saying that your daughter got so much better on the g/f diet, yet she has no thyroid and neither Hashi's, nor celiac, therefore there would be no antibodies of any kind involved in her case.  I don't dispute that going g/f has helped her, you've told us that, but is it possible that her issues were related more to a bacterial or yeast issue in the stomach than to her thyroid issue?  I would never discount her illness, but in her case, I can't see where Dr K's book would be relevant.  

LazyMoose told us that he eliminated gluten in order to deal with a candida issue; that sounds perfectly legitimate to me.  Gluten is thick and sticky (think gravy) and I can see where unhealthy digestion could encourage a yeast infection, because yeast thrives on substances that linger in warm places for extended periods.  Therefore, I would have to ask, if you think it might be possible to slowly add in very small amounts of gluten to see if her underlying problem may have been resolved, since she's been off gluten for approx 7 months?.  

LazyMoose you said:  "Another way to look at it is these are all different problems that can be related and he is assuming it is related for all Hashi people. If that were the case, gluten would make me ill again, it does not".   That is one of the points we are trying to make; Dr K is trying to convince us that ALL Hashi's must have these issues, so yes, as having Hashi's, gluten should make you ill; it should also make me and thousands of other people ill, yet it does not.

We must also keep in mind that there are many people who might be gluten intolerant and do not have either celiac or Hashi's; I'm not sure how Dr K fits them into the equation.  This would be pretty much where magpieannie's daughter fits, if she is in fact "gluten intolerant" -- of course, Dr K would have her off gluten, but he even says himself that many people may be slowly reintroduced to gluten, "except for those with Hashi's".  

[ChitChatNine]

Really great discussion.  Having other than autoimmune, I don't have many comments but great discussion group and WAY TO GO with everybody's thoughts!

C~

[magpieannie]

Do you think that gluten can possibly be a contributer to yeast/fungus/candida or bacterial overgrowth in the stomach? I have a feeling that this is the reason why the doctor wanted her off gluten just as Lazy Moose. However, she did also have the high gliaden result on her saliva test as I mentioned on the other post. The doctor also wanted her to avoid fungal foods like peanuts, and sugars and milk that feed the fungus for awhile and prescribed the Nystatin which she took for several months. As far as slowly adding in a little gluten here and there, we have done that a few times this summer (two weeks at camp) and have seen no issues in her yet. However, I'm afraid to let her just go "hog wild" as I do not want to see her get back to the way she use to be. (destinded abdomin (abdomen), constipated with blood in stool at times, excess hunger and carb. cravings, weight gain, etc). These things are gone now and I don't want her slipping back into these, so I am very cautious. I have also wondered and have been asked if she could have  Hashimotos antibodies even though there is no thyroid gland there since she was born without one? Do people who have a thyroid removed due to Hashimotos disease continue to have antibodies after the removal, and if so, then what are they attacking, nothing?

[goolarra]

Precisely...they are attacking nothing.  The antigen they are programmed to attack has been removed if they have no thyroid, so there is nothing to attack.  However, antibodies will linger for a while after a TT in a Hashi's patient.  When you have immunizations, antibodies are created against the antigen for the disease you are trying to prevent.  Even though you might never come into contact with that disease, your antibodies remain active for many years.  So, too, with thyroid antibodies.  

If your daughter doesn't have a thyroid now and never has, it's virtually impossible for her to have thyroid antibodies (unless there is some vestigial thyroid tissue in her body). And, as you said, even if she did, what are those antibodies going to attack?  Don't forget, we don't feel the antibodies themselves...all we feel is the damage that they have done to our thyroids.

[LazyMoose]

"Do you think that gluten can possibly be a contributer to yeast/fungus/candida or bacterial overgrowth in the stomach?"

-Yes, gluten is the #1 food to eliminate when trying to kill off yeast/fungus/candida or bacterial overgrowth in the digestive tract. There is a lot of written material on this. Again, in this case the elimination is not forever.

But some people are more prone to this for other reasons, not just hypo. And if this is the case indulging in gluten, carbs, sweets makes it more possible to return. Just dont indulge. So as with any food moderation is best..

Glazed doughnuts and Pizza with soda every day would be the worst possible diet not just in general but for gut health / Candida ect. When many people that had a diet like that quit (some really do eat that every day) as a wake up call to lose weight, they feel a lot better all around, this is one of the possible reasons.

[Barb135]

I totally agree with both goolarra and LazyMoose. They both said what I would have said.  If your daughter had a yeast or bacterial issue, that may have been eliminated with the elimination of gluten for 7 months.  

I would never suggest or even hint that your let her go "hog wild" with gluten.  That would be a huge mistake, as her body is no longer used to it.  What I meant was just a little bit here and there; gradually adding back in small amounts.

As I said and goolarra agreed with, since your daughter has neither Hashi's nor celiac, she has no antibodies to attack either gluten or thyroid (since she has none); therefore, the concept of gluten being connected to thyroid issue, would not apply in her case.  It would stand to reason that since both yeast and bacteria feed on gluten and sugar - you could think that may have contributed to her issues.  

We know that limiting sugar is best for general health; we also know, as has been stated many times, whole grains are generally considered to be part of a balanced diet, unless there is a specific reason to eliminate them.  

[Smilerdeb]

I have read your postings and would like to add that Diabetics ALSO have a slow metabolism in the gut and if left untreated can result in Ulcerative Cilitis.
So as your postings have pointed out (very well I might add)....gluten is NOT always the culprit for gut problems.
Great postings from everyone!

[Smilerdeb]

Sorry was supposed to read...Ulcerative Colitis...typo lol

[magpieannie]

Thanks for the great post. It really cleared some questions up for me in regards to my daughter. I will continue to "limit" my daughter's exposure to gluten due to past issues with fungal overgrowth in her intestines. However, if it can't be avoided, I will not fret as much if she gets a little bit here and there. (like at her 2 week summer camp - it was up to her to make good choices on her food-however I was not there to cook it or tell her no, so I'm sure she ate some snacks/food that had it) I want to do my best in helping her to remain her best, however I don't want to go "overboard" with restrictions that may not need to be quite so regid. Although, I will not let her eat  like she use to, the way most kids do, (donuts and pizza and cokes- a definite No No) I will relax a bit and try to let her have a break every once in awhile when it's difficult to avoid. I am thankful that the effects of gluten on her are due to low metabolism (slow gut) and fungal overgrowth, instead of antibodies and Celiacs. Thanks again for all the help! You are all the best!

[stella5349]

I believe more thought needs to be on the immune system response first - vs the argument of Gluten and Celiac being sole. This is how I am understanding the material of that book and find the base of that stream lining the other issues.

[goolarra]

I agree with you, Stella.  That's why I've been trying to figure out how to fill in the holes or missing links in K's explanation of the cause of Hashi's (see my many questions above).  The concept of "mistaken identity" (gluten molecule and thyroid tissue molecule) is central to the whole book, so I think you have to be able to accept his explanation of cause or the rest of the book falls apart.  But, I agree that the discussion does digress at times into the merit or lack thereof of a g/f diet.

[magpieannie]

Welcome back! We've missed you! I've only read 1/2 the book. I think I'll go ahead and finish it now after all these threads about it. I'll let you know when I finish it. All the T1 / T2 stuff confused me some in the first chapters, and since Hashimotos disease is not the issue for us, I just lost interest when it got confusing. I will keep in mind the immune system response as I finish the book. Leave it to you to see the forest through the trees! Your input is a valued asset to us all on this forum. Thanks for chimming in!

[stella5349]

The TH1 and TH2 information had me re-reading it too - many times and to be open about ME and what I have been doing I would like to tell everyone some of the things to at least allow - respect to community posting on odd material such as this.

I found it interesting that a member - TamraW - had found success on non - conventional thyroid therapy. and as we all know we speak "individual" all the time but really?? - when things arise like this its more "individual" then we researched or knew of - isn't it? - She and I had a conversation on "her" wellness and how she achieved it which in the beginning was 'foreign" understanding for me. Now I had to take her information seriously and really understand it and ironically I had already stumbled unto some of Dr. K - as it came prior to her coming forward with the book information. About a week or so prior to her posts on how wonderful she feels and how she did it - I sent an email off researching  blindly myself to an associate of Dr. K and LOW AND BEHOLD - I get an email back days after Tamra and I spoke from them to call the office to speak personally. This message also came after 2 doctors I know personally called about reading the same material too and was very interested in it.

I did contact Dr. K's office - they sent me the book - AND I am still in conversation with that office - AND practioners that are also doing similiar - if not identical protacol ( as research for a better word) as the book discusses and seeing results on some levels too nationally - within the United States.

Now - the thing most concerning as they too - as professional MD's and Internal Med Doctors have legimate concerns of validity and testamonials of others but they are spending "great lengths of money" consulting on a doctor level the information that IS legimate research found in there and looking for more pieces to complete that puzzle. At least give them the respect of being doctors that "try" to see logic through learning new information - such as this material found in this book.

We went through a horrible event on this board not to long ago with a young girl almost getting electro-shock therapy for her mental instabilty - ALL DUE off inadequent thyroid treatment. If we didn't have these boards talking FT3 FT4 and all the other things we know aren't regularly practiced and warned that member about the dangers to ECT - could she be permantely hurt or not here if that didn't happen? AND the resources of finding doctors that "do" look at alternative things other than - hum-drum T4 protacol would others that visit here be better? - I doubt I would  be well - if I hadn't learned about the ins-and outs - of true /real thyroid help and labs and other things../. and that's what brings me to explore ALL things discussed and depend on members here when things like this come up to be a team.

I can not - nor will I say.... Going G/F is the cure for this autoimmune epidemic - not do I think anyone else is really saying that in this book - OR as a professional - but utilizing this diet and some other things is slowly helping people regain some health with their diseases and not just thyroid. We want to stay pro-active don't we and I can say truthfully... this has been a top thing on my list to really put into a patient respective with ALL the people I have been in contact with professionally. I may have been not posting much lately but I have been working on all this and trying desperately to define and research it outside MH - with other doctors and advocates I trust. - and in hopes - that all this checking information taking lots of man hours - Dr. K would still consider a webinar as he agreed back in June  - for us down the road to explain these theories in person more with open questioning.

[ggma1000]

Back to K's book & why it was written....

Just because K is not 100% right with his theories does not mean that everything he says has no merit and it is wrong to bash him just because he is trying to make a profit or that his was just a chiropractor...not an MD. He may be making tons of money, or not. MD;s often have an interest in the labs they use & definitely in the "practice" they are in. He did not write that book just off the top of his head. He put a lot of time and effort into his theory. Why? Maybe he was helping his patients feel better when their MDs were not. Isn't that why he wrote the book?

I am 80 years young, and am still learning and still lots of questions.You know, "The more you know, the more you know you don't know." My father had a PhD in education, used to teach at the graduate level at Penn State U. He claimed that the most educated person he ever met did not know how to read or write...was a rich farmer/land owner in the WV hills who knew everything he needed to, including how to compute compound interest in his head instantly. So K was not an MD, so what? My father had an open mind, and so I try to, also, basing what makes sense according to my own experiences what I already understand, including from other people's experiences. (Can I post experiences somewhere else on MedHelp?)

The one thing in his book which was an "a-ha!" moment for me was the different symptoms for TH-1 and TH-2 types. Although our labs both showed both my husband and me as hypothyroid, we did not have the same symptoms. He is obviously TH-1 and I am TH-2...both of us autoimmune with lots of allergies and reactions to meds we had never even had before!

K's nutritional and proper digestion advice is good for the most part. We started changing our diet when my husband's mother became diabetic. Then about forty years ago to lose weight, we tried the Dr. Adkin's diet. He was not diabetic then, is now. Cutting out carbs (including sugar) all at once, I was as sick for two weeks as any alcoholic going cold turkey! I could not go as carb free as the diet called for, but I never added white sugar or white flour back. The extra protein was not good for my husband's kidneys. So yes, it is not good to eliminate that many carbs as that diet called for. We have both been a LOT healthier since making some lasting dietary changes and adding supplements, teas & spices (try fresh tumeric & ginger for pain). Did K develop his own formulas to make things more simple for his patients? Don't know that, either. Some of his might even be less expensive than wholesale for some major well respected brands...I haven't done the math. Gluten? Don't know, yet.

Some things may never change..."One man's meat may be another man"s poison." and "What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander." I like the one, "Let your food be your medicine." Medicine was practiced more or less successfully over the centuries before modern labs & meds made in a lab, etc., as it still is. Some changes have been good, many are not. Labs can now confirm much but still have many false negatives. Are all of K's theories confirmed? I think not. Will they be? Have no idea. Does he help some people with his protocol, even though his premise may be false? Yes, it seem so. Will I try it? Probably not. Have I learned anything helpful from his book? Yes....and from these forums, too. Thank you.

Peace,  ggma

[ggma1000]

Pardon for my English. I do know better, but this website must have some auto-guessing and completing words for us. I have had to correct dozens that start out the same & then are quite different. Of course, I can make typos in addition. Sorry for not catching all. Oh...
and sometimes my keyboard leaves out a whole word--just did but I caught it this time.

Peace, ggma

[Smilerdeb]

I found this type of 'debate' a lot more easing and informative due to the fact that everyone is explaining their own circumstances...what they found, what they know to be true and untrue and basically its not a case of 'one size fits all'.
Its been a pleasure reading these informative posts...as they have been done in a professional way and basically 'digging deeper' with everyone coming up with ideas and theories rather than blatent statements.
I have enjoyed reading these posts and I am sure I can also say ,...that others will learn from them.

[stella5349]

no one can say "right" or "wrong" on a community forum. The topic of this book and post  is being discussed compared to all forms of treatment on a researched level.

[goolarra]

Once again, let me say that there is no doubt that some people feel better following K's protocol.  However, the central question is whether that is due to improved thyroid health or just improved general and/or gut health.  

My question about the "missing link" tying K's theory to thyroid disease is THE basic building block upon which this theory, book, and protocol are all based.  So, no, K does not have to be 100% right, but his basic premise upon which he bases everything else does have to hold water.

I have no problem with recommending his protocol...my question is whether or not we have seen any science tying this to thyroid disease that warrants its being so ubiquitously recommended on a THYROID forum.  Perhaps until (if) the tie is established, it would be better off referred to another forum (celiac, nutrition, adrenal for example).

Stella, I think in our own frustrated way what we are trying to achieve is a "team" approach.  I and obviously several others, have become uncomfortable with the EXTENT to which K, THE book, the protocol and g/f in general have been recommended on this forum.  It's too ubiquitous.  I personally fear that this forum is becoming a mouthpiece for K and helping him promote his theory.  I am open to new treatments...I've always said that we have pitifully few available, and a new one would be welcome.  However, that is no reason to throw caution to the wind and run with this before we have proof that it works.

As I said, I think this subject would be best discussed on another forum unless a positive link is established between this theory and THYROID.

The fact of the matter is that we all have to be comfortable with what is being posted on this forum if we are to take a "team" approach.  I agree with Deb that this discussion has been great.  A lot of things have been aired that obviously have needed to be for a long time.  I think it's time that some concessions were made to those of us questioning this book, etc.  My concerns are very real, and I feel that they are being dismissed and ignored.  I think we have to come to some compromise for the continued success of this forum.

I have personal obligations this week, so pardon me for being slow in replying.  

  

[Barb135]

I totally agree with Deb and goolarra; there's not much more I could add.

[Smilerdeb]

My argument here is .....why can a member post what they want, when they want, attack other members  who DONT agree and why MH Moderators havent been here for a few weeks to sort all this out before it got out of hand?

Yes we all have lives but we DO put in.

We have a couple of members who 'think' that because they are G/F..that everyone else should follow their regime.

Do you ever see me saying...OMG!  DO RAI BECAUSE A THYROIDECTOMY CAN DAMAGE YOUR PARATHYROID GLANDS CAUSING NO PRODUCTION OF CALCIUM ?

NO!

I say what WAS good for me and anyone taking that path...help them through it. I DONT tell them to take RAI, I dont ramm it down their throats...I tell them that NO-ONE can make that desision..only them.
I dont dominate the whole Thyroid Forum on G/F.

I tell them MY experiences...NOT what they SHOULD be doing.
I am NO Doctor but some here think they are.

When complaints are lodged with Moderators...nothing is done.

So as I said,.....I am out of here for a week to go to another Thyroid Site which I left 3 years ago because I was told MH was the best!
It is the best but not when you are brow beaten into following a certain regime and when you question it or disagree..then abused for it.

If I come back and find one particular member telling everyone to get their Adrenals checked when she knows NOTHING about the Adrenals (as she has been doing to Newbies) then I am out of here for good.

Moderators of MH should be addressing these issues and they are not.

As I said in my posting...I have lost faith in MH.

[Emily_MHModerator]

Hi everyone -

We are closing this thread.  It has served it's purpose, and people discussed the book.  However, it's now getting personal and off topic, so we are left with no choice but to close it.

There were concerns raised about MH and moderators allowing people to attack others.  This is never true.  We can't be everywhere, though, and therefore rely heavily on members to report things.  If they aren't reported, and we don't happen upon it, we can't do anything.  If you have a concern with another member, either talk to them directly in a PM, or let us know and we can check it out.  It is not appropriate to bring it to the public forum.  To report a post, just click on the Report that is in the upper right corner of every post, and choose the appropriate one - spam or abuse.

We are also not promoting any one protocol over another, and we are not mouthpieces.  To a great extent, these forums are yours, and you all set the tone for them.  We are here to just help things run smoothly.  

Perhaps everyone just needs to take a step back and take a break from this topic for a bit.  I think it's pretty clear that you all know where you stand, and those who don't have certainly heard enough in this and other threads to decide.

Emily

******************************  CLOSED THREAD  *********************************
                                      NO POSTS PLEASE

[h2014]

I'm 15 years old and was recently diagnosed with Hashimoto's Thyroiditis approximately 4 months ago. When I was first tested for thyroid problems around 7 months ago, all my tests came back normal but my endocrinologist and I believe that this was just an error with the lab work. My parents decided to take me back in to get rechecked because I started developing a goiter. I was put on medication immediately after being diagnosed and since then everyday I have been taking 75mcg of Levothyroxine. I felt very fatigued and exhausted all the time, I had bad anxiety, felt somewhat depressed, my hair was becoming coarse and dry and I gained about 15 pounds this all happened in the course of two months from may to july. After about a month or two after being put on medication most of symptoms seemed to get much better. My hair starting looking healthy again, my anxiety and depressed feelings are completely gone, and my weight is normal. But, my fatigue and exhaustion are still present and so is my goiter. The goiter shrank in size shortly after being put on the Levothyroxine but it is still present and seems to fluctuate in size regularly. It's not very big and everyone claims not to have noticed it unless I point it out to them but for me it doesn't look or feel normal compared to how my neck/thyroid area used to look. My fatigue and exhaustion are still a major problem also. I feel tired almost everyday and take daily naps from anywhere to one hour to four. I really just want to feel better but I don't know whats wrong because my endocrinologist says my thyroid levels are normal and acts like she doesn't know whats wrong with me. I have zero energy and I used to be very active, exercising, riding my bike, cheer leading, but now I find I can only do these things for a very short amount of time because I run out of breath so quickly. I'm open to any suggestions of advice anyone can give me on what to do to feel better and get rid of my goiter because having this disease is so hard and is an emotional roller coaster and I just don't know what to do anymore...someone please help me.

[gimel]

This is an old, and closed thread.  Your questions will get much more notice and response if you will start a new thread under your own name, by clicking on the orange Post a Question button at top of this page, and then copy and paste the above .

[maggie63830]

Gluten intolerance ( or  an  allergy  to  gluten ) will show  up  on  a blood  test  where  blood is  sent  to  a lab  and  analyzed for food  allegies .